"For what glory is it, if, when ye be buffeted for your faults, ye shall take it patiently?"1Peter 2:20
This "foster" mom KNEW and agreed to the boundaries (rules and regulations) of being a STATE PAID foster parent... she broke the rules... she suffers the consequences!!
This woman chose her employer.
Did she REALLY obey the Bible???
http://www.standard-journal.com/news/news_ap/article_0089248f-3afa-561d-bd90-52555b6e5e50.html
I do not know the full details of this case, but I have firsthand experience with a very similar situation. A sister in our church gave a single swat with a wooden spoon to a little boy in her foster care. She felt pricked in her conscience about having done so and informed the child's grandparents of the reason for the small red mark on the child's leg. The grandparents hot-lined the authorities who "booked" this sister and charged her with child abuse. She had to hire an attorney (our church helped with the cost). This dear sister was no child abuser, but was being threatened criminal charges and with being put on a national registry of child abusers. I attended the hearing with her and her attorney. She was forced to answer questions before a panel of six professionals from various fields. Her fate was in their hands and they were in fact a jury which would decide her case. In the end they agreed that she had not abused the child, but the seriousness of the threat she faced and the financial costs to her were due to the extreme over-reaction of a government agency. There was one official who was determined to make this dear sister an example, and she almost succeeded.
I was amazed as I listened to the line of questions about whether leaving a small red mark (no bruising) constituted "abuse". This question nearly criminalized a precious saint. Those in foster care do need to honor the agreement that they have made with the state, but the state can severely over react and threaten the reputation and liberty of innocent care givers. I speak from firsthand experience - we must be careful about how we discipline children. The state can be very aggressive in their jurisdiction.
Does anyone know if this foster mom is a bible believer?
The Bible is very specific when it comes to proper training methods for children.
The foster parents that I personaly know use the scriptures for their guide when it comes to training their foster children, regardless of whatever mandated regulations there might be.
None of the Christian foster parents that I know except foster children into their home for the money, they do so because of compassion.
I do not question the "compassion" of foster parents... BUT, you cannot be a foster parent without outwardly agreeing to the rules of the State.
Did this foster parent (who believes in biblical discipline) tell the authorities UP FRONT that she would use spanking as a form of discipline???
Should this foster parent be honest with the State authorities??
We are not talking about dogs,
we are talking about souls!
God knows what is right when it comes to training souls, the state is of the world and of the world will their training methods produce!
when rescuing Souls "We ought to obey God rather than men."
Are you kidding me? Please tell me you are kidding!Please. I make very dogmatic statements and take a very dogmatic stance often times but I have to say bro/sis...whoever...there is not even an ounce of mercy in your statement and judgement. You are for sure not privy to the interviews she would have had to endure to enter that system of child care and your information is coming from a heathen news media none the less, which is really no better than hearing from the devil himself, so when the next Apostle of the faith is stoned are you like Saul going to be consenting unto their death? I hope not. You do understand that at any given time here in America we can now be "let go of" for our religious orientation, and its starting to happen now...I guess brothers and sisters are just picking the wrong employers!
QUOTE:This "foster" mom KNEW and agreed to the boundaries (rules and regulations) of being a STATE PAID foster parent... she broke the rules... she suffers the consequences!!
The early apostles knew the Laws in Rome...they died for their obedience to the gospel yet while breaking so many laws of Rome to do so,,well they did die after all, guess it for their own good...thoughs bad law breakers!
Quote:Did she REALLY obey the Bible???
Yes...that was kinda quiet ....YES!!!!!!!!!!!! that was better.
My best guess is that you are either a very sheltered older person who lacks the personal instruction from the mouth of God. Or you are a young untested Christian who still has a ton of foolishness bound up in your heart, either way it would be the mercy of God to allow you to walk in your own judgements before that great day of the Lord comes on this land.
dspks asked ///Are the foster parents being honest with the State authorities??///
Was the ten boom and like families honest with the State authorities, when they where protecting Jewish souls ??
Was Rahab being honest with the State authorities when they asked her to "Bring forth the men that are come to thee, which are entered into thine house" and she answered them "I wist not whence they were" ??
When it comes to Souls "We ought to obey God rather than men."
Corrie was not employed by the Nazis... Saul WAS employed by the religious govt. ... I think he probably resigned after his conversion :). Paul (formerly Saul) was not a govt. employee...
This foster parent (Christian or non-Christian) AGREED to be PAID by the state... The FACT that she agreed to be employed by the state IMPLIES that she agreed with and would follow the RULES of her employer. If those rules are broken we shouldn't be surprised of the consequences.
Hmmmm????
Are Souls the property of the state??
There are MANY ministries to choose from to help train children in Biblical truth.
If this dear lady wanted to deal with the child's soul she should have chosen a non-heathen program and employer.
I agree with your post makrothumia.
Littlefield was arrested after the girl's biological mother noticed bruises on her daughter's buttocks when the child bent over to pick up a toy during a supervised visit. Medical staff at the Pequot Health Center determined the girl's contusions appeared to have been caused by the repeated strikes of a blunt instrument.
Littlefield initially denied hitting the child but later said she spanked the girl with the spoon she was using to stir soup after the child struck her granddaughter, spat at her and used a racial slur, according to the arrest document.
Interesting to me that the child's real mom was the one who pressed the issue. Normally in these cases the mother of the child is herself an abuser in some form or fashion and that is why she had to have supervised visits. Neglect/abuse/whatever else.
(There are MANY ministries to choose from to help train children in Biblical truth.)
Your statement there is truly humorous:)....biblical truth says Proverb 22:6 Train up a child in the way he should go: and when he is old, he will not depart from it.
Proverb 22:15 Foolishness [is] bound in the heart of a child; [but] the rod of correction shall drive it far from him.
Prov 23:13-14/////Prov 29;15
There are a whole lot of examples also in God s dealings with us in scripture.
My best guess judging from real life knowledge of how news papers report cases like these is that the story is greatly exaggerated in order to gain public support and divert the real attention off of the dead beat biological MOM.
Lets face it...the devil has you on his side lock stock and barrel on this one dspks. You may want to consider searching out the Bible on the topic of correction and discipline, it could be that you honestly just are very misinformed.
Here is an online resource to help you http://www.blueletterbible.org/
Sermonindex also has a ton of stuff if you are really interested in the truth.
I personally believe in discipling my children using rod. But I do not believe in doing the same on a child not born to me. My daughter is God's gift to me which comes with a responsibility to bring her up for God using Godly discipline, irrespective of the state laws. But a foster mom gets a child from state and she better follow the laws of state which has given her the custody of the baby. This is my personal view. The state pays a foster mom to bring up a child according to their state laws and guidelines, when you disagree to it you better refund the money.
Totally agree with your post Sree! Well said!
I don't think the scriptures had foster children in mind when one reads verses on disciplining of children. When well meaning Christian parents step in to foster children from DHS or CHS then they are bound to honir the guide lines set forth by these agencies. The parents may not agree with those guide lines. But if the parents are recieving compensation from that agency to be a foster parent then they must obey the state. Again they are foster parents. Nothing more.
It becomes a different siuation when the state starts telling a Christian parent how to raise their birth or adopted child. That becomes a whole different thread.
My thoughts only from the bear den.
Bearmaster.
I have to say that I agree with dspks on this one. It is impossible to be a foster parent in most western countries and not be aware that the state officially takes a position on the legality and validity of corporal discipline. I have seen that in the UK at least that the Department for Social Services always holds to a position which reflects a zero tolerance to physical smacking, even though the Law of the land allows for it if that means that there is no physical marking of a child. I once was privy to a circumstance in which the biological child being old enough to express their desire not to be hit formed the legal basis for intervention. In the end with sufficient support it was possible to force Social Services to back down. However, in the case of foster parents no such backing down would have been countenanced. It is certainly a difficult issue because clearly children are not harmed by being smacked if that means without marks and by means which are not sadistic and unnecessarily intimidating. When believers cite the bible as a basis for such smacking then the conflict is inevitable. We need to remember these state officials see every kind of abuse and its consequences which historically has from time to time been covered up by parental claims that they are acting in a biblical manner when they smack their [other peoples] children in their care……only to learn that a child is really being harmed.
I was abused by my own parents and remember the days when the state was virtually powerless to intervene even when there was clear evidence that a child was being harmed. All it took for the state to back down in the 1960/70's, was a child's inability to make their own complaint. Today the child is encouraged to express their own thoughts and feelings and this has led to a legal situation in which the child's view has taken legal precedence to a parental or guardian view….due to the over arching powers of child protection laws. My son has cerebral palsy and severe learning difficulties, and despite the fact that my wife and myself have cared for him for 26 years I know that we would lose him to the state if we ever disciplined him by physical means. If we had felt so strongly about this subject then we would have had to refrain from any state help whatsoever in his upbringing and care. As it is we have had a great deal of financial help and in accepting it we are bound by the conditions in which it is given. Like it or not that is the sum of the legality of it and to claim otherwise is foolish and will inevitably lead to problems. I sometimes joke with my son's social workers just to seek their reaction…... I see that they really take this issue very seriously. One really lovely lady begged me one day not to joke about it because she felt the pain so much that she might be driven to ask questions which would inevitably lead to further enquiries.
As a matter of reality I only ever smacked my able bodied children just once each. I felt so bad about it because they submitted to the smack with a childish obedience. I was immediately struck with the idea that if they submitted then there couldn't be such a great problem and if they would not submit then chasing them around the house would in any event be abusive. I never smacked them again for which I thanked God. I have often wondered if I was being simply weak minded….then again they have turned out just fine by means other than smacking them. There is no easy answer that's for sure.
I also agree with you dspks.
As bear stated, this is not about a govt agency entering a private household and telling christian parents how to raise their kids.
Rather, they are judging an agency EMPLOYEE's violation of the agency's policies. Whether the agency's policies are right or wrong is not the issue. The issue is whether the lady should have abided by the regulations as an employee of the agency.
It is no different than a public HS principal being fired for paddling a child in violation of school regulations. Biblically, his actions *may* be justified. But as an employee, he cannot just do whatever he wants, unless of course he also wants to get fired. But as someone else stated if he knows he is not allowed to paddle kids but enters the job knowing he is going to do so anyway, there is corruptness in his heart. he should work for a Christian school that allows paddling (do they? i have no idea).
dohzman wrote:
"Lets face it...the devil has you on his side lock stock and barrel on this one dspks. You may want to consider searching out the Bible on the topic of correction and discipline, it could be that you honestly just are very misinformed."
I think you should apologize to dspks for this rather over-the-top and ridiculous comment.
(There are MANY ministries to choose from to help train children in Biblical truth.)
Your statement there is truly humorous:)....biblical truth says Proverb 22:6 Train up a child in the way he should go: and when he is old, he will not depart from it.
Proverb 22:15 Foolishness [is] bound in the heart of a child; [but] the rod of correction shall drive it far from him.
Prov 23:13-14/////Prov 29;15
My statement was made from this context so I will apologize to no one.
I guess some of you find that since the bible does not specifically name step or foster children that it is not really relevant. Thats a slippery slope because once you adopt that position it is an easy matter to justify away almost any Biblical precept. So we are at a crossroads here. You guys can go the direction you have chosen and I will do the same...On this matter I will dogmatically disagree with a few of you.
I guess some of you find that since the bible does not specifically name step or foster children that it is not really relevant. Thats a slippery slope because once you adopt that position it is an easy matter to justify away almost any Biblical precept. So we are at a crossroads here. You guys can go the direction you have chosen and I will do the same...On this matter I will dogmatically disagree with a few of you. dohzman
I have never looked before to see what the meaning of "rod" is when used in the verses where it is applicable. I find that the same word translated "rod" is used in several ways and both have to do with authority. It is used on the one hand to mean literally a physical punishment or else a physical consequence. It is used in reference to the "back" and so it must mean in that sense a physical reality. It is also used much more in the sense of the "rod" of a tribe, i.e. authority of a tribe to discipline other members and it is used in the sense of the Lord's physical discipline of the nations a "rod of iron". "Thy rod and Thy staff comfort me still" as a sceptre of authority is another use and we are told that when the Lord removes His rod [judgement] it brings comfort and takes away fear.
From all of this what seems to be at the bottom of the idea of disciplining children, peoples, or nations lies the fear of the Lord and the comfort which comes from obedience. That would seem something even a child could understand. The question is however whether a person who has a contract with a government agency or for that matter even with the child's parent…..can use a "rod" to discipline a child in defiance of the law or parental authority. Even if the parent of a child being cared for on a day basis would have the final say. This can be no less true for the government who has become the legally responsible party. Step children cannot be an issue as the marriage of both parents brings all the children into the same relationship with both parents as well as with one another. I can't see the need for dogmatic agreement or disagreement. It is simply a matter of common sense and abiding by the law of the land. But the purpose and emphasis must be motivated by love and not anger.
amrkelly;) I am not angry at all, a little surprised, but not angry. You see the commitments we make with the words of our mouth are contracts and agreements and I believe they should be honored, however because I listen to the the Word of God and see it way differently, I'm sure than most here, I do not reply to often to much of what I read unless it really strikes a cord. In the beginning of this the thing what stood out to me was the utter lack of mercy and compassion toward one whom we are supposed to be willing to lay our lives down for. But so much for that.
I do however want to point out something that we have all read and no one talks about because...well because it is wrapped into a nice little story in the birth of Jesus, which we examine, perhaps very, ummmm....much the same, year in year out. That is the contract the wise men made with Herod Matt 2:7-9 plus a few , anyway they made a contractual agreement to report back, they gave their word..Now we all know that God warned them and the rest of the historical account, the question is one of MORAL OBEDIENCE to the conviction of God laid upon them, Was their obedience sin or an honest attempt to obey what they believe they received from God after the fact? In the same way, could this poor sisters action be something after the fact?
Conclusion: It does not really matter since we can not know the matter in its entirety. What does matter is our response toward a fellow saint who needs our prayers and encouragement...who knows....she may very well be reading what everyone here is writing right now? No body really knows exactly who is visiting this site on a regular or semi-regular basis, or perhaps just stumbles onto it. I do know one thing, if it was me and I read what I've read here on this thread, I would get really angry, may even stumble at some of the comments, and that is not God Honoring, not at all.
I am not angry at all, a little surprised, but not angry. dohzman
Hi dohzman my reference to anger was not with regard to yourself it was with regard to the centrality of this post. Namely the sister who bruised a child whilst disciplining that child. You see for me there is always a rational basis for everything even when that rationale is predicated on anger. The sister in question must have been interviewed extensively with regards to becoming a foster carer. In that process she must have been required to express something of her understanding of discipline. I take it therefore that she did not hold to a formal view of discipline incorporating corporal punishment of children when she succeeded with that process. If she had then she lied if she had not then she lost her temper. Perhaps she got saved some time thereafter. Only the Lord knows.
To say more than that would be unkind but one thing is for certain it is the Lord's name which we are using to defend ourselves in these circumstances and it is profoundly wrong. It is a mistake and the consequences of it will be greater rebellion and lawlessness amongst those we cause to stumble.
When we get something wrong we should admit it and accept the process which follows not defend what we have done by claiming that the state has erred in removing physical discipline from their understanding. The state is not the parent. The state is the rod. That would be a better way to think about applying the rod and not to little children's bodies.
Ok, I can see your point here. I think one report I read said that the child was 4 years old, it has been so long since my children were 4 I can't remember if they were in diapers or not at that age? I read several articles reported from several different news outlets. The Family Services statement in one report made a statement that they train all foster parents in how to deal with the children in a classroom setting. But my best guess is that the woman had to many buttons pushed and "went off". Probably the bruise or welt she left was due to the diaper...good cushion there:) and the spoon may have missed on 1 of the swings and caught the child's upper leg and that is where the bruise was because in one of the news articles I read it commented that the Natural mother on a supervised visit saw her daughter bend over and thats when she saw the bruise and everything came to light.
Regardless of the hows and whys you are correct about laying the blame on God, but I personally could not find anything where she directly made a statement about moral conviction on this incident. I think its probably overzealous reporting, however, that said in the States here more and more parents that are strong outwardly Christian in their stance are losing their own flesh and blood children over this very same issue. There have been more and more cases popping up all over the Country and it is clearly a stage set for battle and one where eventually the Christian community will be forced to fight in courts across this land or just roll over and allow the government to control us and the way we raise our children. However as to the rod of correction, a good spanking (parents under control) never hurt any child in the long run. I have dealt with young people for more than 20 years and there has been a few which you can tell have clearly never been corrected in their young life, let alone spanked. Anyway...God Bless bro. daryl
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