Children and the Rod of Correction

by Dave Miller, Ph.D.

American civilization has undergone tremendous social shifting in the last fifty years in virtually every facet of its culture. This transformation is evident, for example, in the area of the family and parental discipline. From the beginning of this nation, most Americans have believed in the value of corporal punishment. This discipline has included spanking the child using a variety of instruments, including a “switch,” paddle, razor strap, yardstick, belt, or hand. The last generation to have experienced this approach to parenting on a wide scale was the World War II generation. Due to the adverse influence of social liberals and alleged “specialists” in human behavior and child psychology, the thinking of many Americans has now been transformed to the extent that corporal punishment has come to be viewed as “child abuse”—even by the judiciary.

Make no mistake: genuine child abuse is taking place every day in America. Some parents are burning, torturing, and even killing their children. However, the abuse of a good thing is no argument against its legitimate and judicious use. Extreme behavior often elicits an extreme reaction. We must not “throw out the baby with the bathwater.” Regardless of the superficial appeal of the arguments that are marshaled against spanking, those who recognize that the Bible is the inspired Word of God are more concerned with biblical insight regarding the matter. Does the Bible advocate or sanction the spanking of children?

THE BIBLE’S VIEWPOINT

Several verses refer explicitly to the use of corporal punishment in the rearing of children. The longstanding quip, “Spare the rod and spoil the child,” is undoubtedly a paraphrase of Solomon’s words: “He who spares his rod hates his son, but he who loves him disciplines him promptly” (Proverbs 13:24). This motif is repeated throughout Proverbs. For example, Solomon asserted “foolishness is bound up in the heart of a child, but the rod of correction will drive it far from him” (22:15). This one statement is packed with meaning that merits deep and prolonged meditation and analysis. Most modern adolescent psychologists have not even begun to plumb its depths, let alone agree with it.

Lest someone get the idea that Solomon used the term “rod” figuratively, without intending to leave the impression that parents should actually strike their children with a rod, he clarified the target: “Do not withhold correction from a child, for if you beat him with a rod, he will not die. You shall beat him with a rod, and deliver his soul from hell” (23:13-14). A proper balance is obviously needed between verbal reproof/encouragement on the one hand, and the application of corporal punishment on the other, as seen in the following words: “The rod and reproof give wisdom, but a child left to himself brings shame to his mother. Correct your son, and he will give you rest; yes, he will give delight to your soul” (29:15,17, emp. added). The immense importance of the interplay between positive instruction, encouragement, and nurturing, in conjunction with appropriate physical punishment, cannot be overestimated nor successfully discounted.

MEANING OF “ROD”

But what did Solomon mean by “rod”? The Old Testament uses primarily three Hebrew words to refer to a wooden stick:

Maqqel refers to a tree branch that has been transformed into a riding crop (Numbers 22:27), a shepherd’s staff (1 Samuel 17:40—which Goliath called a “stave” or “stick”—vs. 43), or a weapon of war (Ezekiel 39:9—“javelin” in the NKJV). It is also used as a symbol of dominion (e.g., Jeremiah 48:17—where it occurs in synonymous parallelism with matteh), and in its natural state as a branch of a poplar, chestnut, or almond tree (Genesis 30:37; Jeremiah 1:11) [see Harris, et al., 1980, 1:524; Botterweck, et al., 1997, 8:548-550].

Matteh occurs 252 times and is used to refer to a branch, stick, stem, rod, shaft, staff, and most often a tribe (some 180 times). It can refer to a stick used to beat out cumin/grain (Isaiah 28:27), a soldier’s spear (1 Samuel 14:27), as well as the shaft of an arrow (Habakkuk 3:9,14) [Botterweck, et al., 8:241; Gesenius, 1847, pp. 466-467].

Shevet, the word used in Proverbs, refers to a staff, stick, rod, scepter, and tribe. Gesenius defined it as “a staff, stick, rod” and then showed how it is translated differently in accordance with the use to which it was put, whether for beating, striking, chastening (Isaiah 10:5,15), a shepherd’s crook (Leviticus 27:32; Psalm 34:4), a king’s scepter (Genesis 49:10; Amos 1:5,8), a tribe (Judges 20:2), a measuring rod, or a spear (2 Samuel 18:14) [p. 801; cf. Harris, et al., 2:897].

Matteh and shevet are used together in Ezekiel 19:10-14 to refer to fresh tree branches. They are used in synonymous parallelism in Isaiah 28:27 as a stick used to beat out cumin/grain: “But the black cumin is beaten out with a stick (matteh), and the cumin with a rod (shevet).” They are unquestionably synonyms. If any distinction can be made between them, it is that matteh is not used to refer to a scepter (see Harris, et al., 2:897; although Gesenius, pp. 466-467). However, both are used to refer to a stick or rod. In fact, shevet is specifically referred to as a rod used for beating a human being: “And if a man beats his servant or his maidservant with a rod…” (Exodus 21:20). As Isaacs noted: “The Heb[rew] shebhet is the ordinary word for rod or club” (1959, 4:2702; cf. McClintock and Strong, 1880, 9:57-58,401).

In addition to the verses in Proverbs that refer specifically to spanking a child, several additional verses verify that literal striking of the body with a wooden stick is envisioned. For example, “Wisdom is found on the lips of him who has understanding, but a rod is for the back of him who is devoid of understanding” (Proverbs 10:13). “A whip for the horse, a bridle for the donkey, and a rod for the fool’s back” (Proverbs 26:3). Obviously, the “rod” is as literal as the “whip” and “bridle.” The Psalmist declared: “Then I will visit their transgression with the rod, and their iniquity with stripes” (Psalm 89:32). Though speaking figuratively, the Psalmist aligned “rod” with “stripes.” In passages where the term “rod” is used figuratively, the figurative use presupposes the literal meaning (e.g., Job 9:34; 21:9; Isaiah 10:24; 11:4; 14:29; 30:31; Lamentations 3:1; Micah 5:1).

CONCLUSIONS

In light of the linguistic data, the following conclusions are warranted:

First, the three terms are essentially synonyms with no real distinction to be discerned between them. They are as generic, ambiguous, and flexible as their English counterparts. As Orr stated: “Little distinction can be drawn between the Heb[rew] words used for ‘rod’ and ‘staff ’ ” (1959, 4:2596; also Funderburk, 1976, 5:132). The commonality that exists between them is the fact that they all refer to a stick/limb, i.e., a branch from a tree. In antiquity, scepters, spears, arrows, rods, staffs/staves were all made out of wood, i.e., tree branches (cf. Ezekiel 19:11). Hence, the distinction between them was one of purpose/function—not source. It follows that size, i.e., thickness and length, would likewise have varied. The Hebrew words themselves possess no inherent indication regarding size.

Second, the principle of spanking is clearly taught in Proverbs. This is beyond dispute. Since God would not approve of child abuse (cf. Colossians 3:21), it follows that whatever instrument is used for spanking, whether switch, yardstick, paddle, belt, razor strap, etc., should get the job done without inflicting inappropriate or unnecessary damage to the child’s body. The “switch” has much to commend it, and certainly coincides with the biblical texts on the subject. But good sense and personal judgment must be exercised in determining its size.

In his comments on the Hebrew word for “rod,” Hebrew scholar and Professor of Old Testament at Regents College, Bruce Waltke noted: “The rod was also used as an instrument for either remedial or penal punishment. …In Prov[erbs] it is the symbol of discipline, and failure to use the preventive discipline of verbal rebuke and the corrective discipline of physical punishment will end in the child’s death” (Harris, et al., 1980, 2:897, emp. added). The author of the apocryphal book, Ecclesiasticus, observed: “He who loves his son will whip him often, in order that he may rejoice at the way he turns out” (May and Metzger, 1965, p. 166).

Writing over one hundred years ago, professor W.F. Adeney offered a surprisingly current observation that has much to commend it:

The primitive rigour of the Book of Proverbs is repudiated by modern manners. Not only in domestic training, but even in criminal law, people reject the old harsh methods, and endeavor to substitute milder means of correction. No doubt there was much that was more than rough, even brutal, in the discipline of our forefathers. The relation between father and child was too often lacking in sympathy through the undue exercise of parental authority, and society generally was hardened rather than purged by pitiless forms of punishment. But now the question is whether we are not erring towards the opposite extreme in showing more tenderness to the criminal than to his victim, and failing to let our children feel the need of some painful discipline. We idolize comfort, and we are in danger of thinking pain to be worse than sin. It may be well, therefore, to consider some of the disadvantages of neglecting the old-fashioned methods of chastisement (1950, 9:258-259).

http://www.apologeticspress.org/apcontent.aspx?category=7&article=1255

RE:// This chap would have been better putting his much education to something useful. Its frankly incredible that he begins with an issue regarding the discipline of children and end with the words "criminals". In my view that just about sums it up. Shame on such men as these! //

I think the point of Dave Miller, Ph.D.'s inclusion of W.F. Adeney's quote could be summed up by: "We idolize comfort, and we are in danger of thinking pain to be worse than sin. It may be well, therefore, to consider some of the disadvantages of neglecting the old-fashioned methods of chastisement"

Is Society shifting in its outlook of proper training methods when it comes to children ??

Are Christians shifting along with society when it comes to what they feel is the correct ways of training children ?

THANK YOU, Proudpapa for posting this extensive Bible study on this very important subject!

We have sown to the winds of permissiveness in parenting, and we are now reaping the whirlwinds of lawlessness and crime multiplied exponentially. The foolishness that is bound up in the heart of a child will eventually turn into criminal activity if not "nipped in the bud" with the wonderful little method that God instructed involving the rod.

Those who oppose this clearly outlined Biblical instruction of corporal (painful) punishment are clearly opposing our Creator whose ways and thoughts are much higher than ours.

I thank God that my parents obeyed the Bible and inflicted painful consequences for my disobedience as a child!

amrkelly writes:

Men make criminals. Sinners are born. Not the same thing at all.

Very interesting perspective, amr.

I am curious, what man made you a criminal? Who made you a thief if it wasn't your own heart?

Is society now to blame for the criminals that populate the prisons?

If I am mistaken in thinking that you are playing the "blame shifter", please correct me.

One other question: Is God unjust when He applies the "rod of correction" to His children? His chastisement can be quite painful, but He is known to do that sort of thing to those He LOVES.

All the best,
Pilgrim

There was more murder, violence, rape, lawlessness of the gross kind 300 years ago than there is now. This is true for England, France and several other European nations. Did or do you know what this was predicated on? Injustice with a large ROD. We tend to have a somewhat sanitised view of European social history. However, it was grim beyond your imagination. Wesley knew it, as did others at that time and their response was not the rod, it was the gospel of grace.

Isn't it interesting that while society was applying the rod, Wesley was seeing some of the greatest revivals to ever hit the planet? Can you possibly see the connection? When man is made aware of what pain can be like, and then made aware of the place of eternal pain, and then the remedy offered at the cross, he can properly respond with true repentance!

Children are not instinctive criminals.

Maybe they are not in Europe, but here in the USA, we have a horrible epidemic of children criminals. Recently a child murdered his parents in our town.

We got rid of the rod many decades ago, and our children are becoming criminals here.

Criminality is more than simply being a thief. If men were not sinners in the first instance they would not steal anything.

Agreed. And, theft is covetousness, being manifested from a heart of rebellion that has no respect for others.

However, men are sinner and sinners experience injustice. Every one knows that men are sinners. England and France especially knew that men are sinners and precisely to remedy that condition instituted some of the greatest injustices imaginable.

But, what does that have to do with Christians having the mind of Christ and being led by the Spirit (who knows how to discipline), to discipline their children according to the Spirit?

And no I do not attribute my own thefts to others. I comprehend them firmly as my own. As far as I know the only remedy for a thief is to learn to give.

Well, to give, yes, but to give only of that which the thief has earned. Robin Hood gave from what he stole from others. Nothing noble or good about that.

To give you have to have something to give.

And it should be something to give which you have earned or which belongs to you in the first place.

And no its not an interesting perspective its just a societal reality. Societies have always sought to restrain the sinner with the rod.

Civil governments are raised up and allowed by God and doesn't God even chastise His children? He does not spare the "rod".

Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers. For there is no power but of God: the powers that be are ordained of God. (Romans 13:1)

This discussion is about children. And the issue with children is a simple one. They are not born criminals. They are born sinners and become criminals if they steal and are prosecuted for the same.

I thought the discussion was also about Godly correction and chastisement. Aren't children criminals if they steal even if they do not get caught? You are saying they are only criminals if they get caught?

Injustice is the greatest stumbling block to most men. It is the same for children who comprehending there parents hypocrisies have to then endure their parents anger as well.

God does not instruct a parent to chastise out of anger. God does not bear the rod against His children out of anger but out of love and we are to do the same for our children. If we love them, we will correct them the way the Holy Spirit leads us to.

Lastly I don't play games so I wouldn't pursue that argument too far. Only God Himself comprehends how to discipline men justly.

But we are talking about children, as you said. And don't you think that God can give His children, who have the Holy Spirit (and thus, the mind of Christ), wisdom in chastising their children?

Men are always to a degree unjust. However, some men are more unjust than others.

Are you talking about men that are not walking in the Spirit?

I am saying that it isn't necessary to physically beat a child with a rod. Despite the efforts of many brethren to prove that very point.

Well, it is a Biblical instruction, isn't it? How do you deal with that? And that, "rebellion is bound up in the heart of a child and the rod of discipline will remove it far from him"?

My father was a hypocrite in terms of being a Christian, but at the same time he was completely just in applying the rod to me. I did not get those two things mixed up. Everytime he applied the rod to me, I knew I deserved it and furthermore, the rod helped me to come clean and repent. It was actually a mechanism that freed me from guilt and wrongdoing.

When I look back, I don't remember pain from his chastisement, I only remember the good results that came from it.

And isn't that the purpose of chastisement. That it would yield the peaceable fruit of righteousness? (Heb 12)

It sounds like you were beaten unjustly and cruelly and I have talked with people that have had that experience and what they do is superimpose their negative experience on all parents and conclude that all parents chastise unjustly. Do you think that all parents bear the rod out of anger?

Additionally, these brothers that I have spoken with who were beaten unjustly never are able to see it from any other perspective than their own experience and I don't think you will be any different. I respect where you are coming from and with your explanation, I think I understand why. Maybe you can do the same for those you don't agree with.

Pilgrim

proudpapa, very good post, thank you.

Thank you Proud papa,
For standing up,and bringing forth such a much needed and timely artical,
According to the Word..
It is almost a fearful thing to bring forth he Lord' counsel against the laws and the worldy wisdom and their counsel now,and seeing the results in the children.

Please,..this is my thought s on this mater:

One must needs talk to a child VERY early,...teaching them the Lord' ways,..what is exceptable and what IS NOT with a very gentle
correction,...between birth and (5) yrs old. I find,if he/she has not been disaplined rightfully by then,he/she is on their way to believing that they are the one in control,....they are the boss,.....and the bigger they get, the more out of control they become,until they are bent to do as they please,and are in for trouble,and we are too...by then,too it is hard to break the rebellious
spirit by then,,which MUST be broke.

It only takes a very small switch in the early stages,...( because the bigger
they get,the biger switch it takes. ) ...it will not hurt them deep,but WILL GET THEIR ATTENTION...but before I would do this,
I would look my child in the eye,and ask very gently,.." Do you know why
you are going to get this switching ?" And then explain why ,...and then on with the switching.

But first of all,..Our relationship with The Lord,is what will help,..guide us
for if our relationship with The Lord is right,...then the fruits of the Spirit
will help in our wisdom and temperance.
Patience ,.love ,..gentleness,.....kindness,...etc,etc,...in all that is needed.

And we know,to disapline and rightful correction IS because we love
them.

Caring,
Elizabeth

"Let me reason this case a little farther with you parents that fear God. If you do fear God, how dare you suffer a child above a year old to say, "I will do" what you forbid, or, "I won't do" what you bid, and to go unpunished? Why do not you stop him at once, that he may never dare to say so again? Have you no bowels, no compassion for your child? No regard for his salvation or destruction? Would you suffer him to curse or swear in your presence, and take no notice of it? Why, disobedience is as certain a way to damnation as cursing and swearing. Stop him, stop him at first, in the name of God. Do not "spare the rod, and spoil the child." If you have not the heart of a tiger, do not give up your child to his own will, that is, to the devil. Though it be pain to yourself, yet pluck your offspring out of the lion's teeth. Make them submit, that they may not perish. Break their will, that you may save their soul." - John Wesley

Thank you Proud papa,
For standing up,and bringing forth such a much needed and timely artical,
According to the Word..
It is almost a fearful thing to bring forth he Lord' counsel against the laws and the worldy wisdom and their counsel now,and seeing the results in the children.

Please,..this is my thought s on this mater:

One must needs talk to a child VERY early,...teaching them the Lord' ways,..what is exceptable and what IS NOT with a very gentle
correction,...between birth and (5) yrs old. I find,if he/she has not been disaplined rightfully by then,he/she is on their way to believing that they are the one in control,....they are the boss,.....and the bigger they get, the more out of control they become,until they are bent to do as they please,and are in for trouble,and we are too...by then,too it is hard to break the rebellious
spirit by then,,which MUST be broke.

It only takes a very small switch in the early stages,...( because the bigger
they get,the biger switch it takes. ) ...it will not hurt them deep,but WILL GET THEIR ATTENTION...but before I would do this,
I would look my child in the eye,and ask very gently,.." Do you know why
you are going to get this switching ?" And then explain why ,...and then on with the switching.

But first of all,..Our relationship with The Lord,is what will help,..guide us
for if our relationship with The Lord is right,...then the fruits of the Spirit
will help in our wisdom and temperance.
Patience ,.love ,..gentleness,.....kindness,...etc,etc,...in all that is needed.

And we know,to discipline and rightful correction IS because we love
them.

Caring,
Elizabeth

Excellent post, Elibeth. And thank you to proudpapa for starting this thread.

There are many testimonies out there from people that were not disciplined and wish they were.

But Elibeth, you are so right that you must begin early with children. Now we know how smart dogs are and we begin training a dog as a newborn puppy. Well, humans are are much more intelligent and will take their cues from their parents (right or wrong) and if we are not training them early on, they are training us. Do you know what I mean?

Young children cannot be reasoned with for they do not understand your language and you should not yell at them. A little switch placed in the right place is all they need. A little pain they understand and it will save their soul. This is not theory to me. I have children (adults and teenagers).

All the best,
Pilgrim

Amr,

You have not addressed my question on why God will severely chastise His own children. For what purpose does God chastise? Do you think it is unjust for the Lord to chastise His own children?

Jer_31:28 And it shall come to pass, that like as I have watched over them, to pluck up, and to break down, and to throw down, and to destroy, and to afflict; so will I watch over them, to build, and to plant, saith the LORD.

Was the Lord being too severe in Jer 44?
Jer 44:26 Therefore hear ye the word of the LORD, all Judah that dwell in the land of Egypt; Behold, I have sworn by my great name, saith the LORD, that my name shall no more be named in the mouth of any man of Judah in all the land of Egypt, saying, The Lord GOD liveth.
Jer 44:27 Behold, I will watch over them for evil, and not for good: and all the men of Judah that are in the land of Egypt shall be consumed by the sword and by the famine, until there be an end of them.
Jer 44:28 Yet a small number that escape the sword shall return out of the land of Egypt into the land of Judah, and all the remnant of Judah, that are gone into the land of Egypt to sojourn there, shall know whose words shall stand, mine, or theirs.
Jer 44:29 And this shall be a sign unto you, saith the LORD, that I will punish you in this place, that ye may know that my words shall surely stand against you for evil:

The Lord allowed Himself to be provoked to anger and He took out His anger on His people. Would the world today, pass judgment on God and prosecute Him and put Him in jail?
Looks like He is more severe than a parent who is switching their child. At least the parent does not forsake her child.
What do you think of God getting angry and forsaking His inheritance (the children of Israel)?

2Ki 21:14 And I will forsake the remnant of mine inheritance, and deliver them into the hand of their enemies; and they shall become a prey and a spoil to all their enemies;

2Ki 21:15 Because they have done that which was evil in my sight, and have provoked me to anger, since the day their
fathers came forth out of Egypt, even unto this day.

God scourges those He loves. What do you think of that? Don't we learn to be fathers by how the Lord "fathers" us?

Heb 12:6 For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth, and scourgeth every son whom he receiveth.
Heb 12:7 If ye endure chastening, God dealeth with you as with sons; for what son is he whom the father chasteneth not?
Heb 12:8 But if ye be without chastisement, whereof all are partakers, then are ye bastards, and not sons.
Heb 12:9 Furthermore we have had fathers of our flesh which corrected us, and we gave them reverence: shall we not much rather be in subjection unto the Father of spirits, and live?

I think your comment about flattery is extreme as I would also thank you if you posted something that blesses me. Be sure that you are not vilifying individuals rather than staying on topic.

The hand is not the rod, Gods word is specific, He never tell parents to hit their children with their hands, He always speaks of the rod (a switch)

Michael Pearl "train up a child" p.50 says:

"Instuments of love
Make it a point never to use your hand for spanking. Exceptions should be highly justified. It is usually the impatient,personally offended parent whose hand continually darts out like a snake. The parent, too busy to take the time needed for training, blurts out, "Just get off my back, leave me alone, stop bothering me. "(The hand-swatting is a release of the parents own frustration)
Furthermore, where the child is concerned, hands are for loving, not martial arts. A hand on a diapered bottom is useless as a spanking, but it is effective in causing permanent damage to the spine. There is no surface pain to the child thus whipped. Any pain would be deep inside, similar to a fall or a car wreck. Any spanking, to effectively reinforce instruction, must cause pain. It is most effective to strike a light rod against bare skin, where nerves are located at the surface. A surface sting will cause sufficient pain with no injury or bruising..."

That's a great book. I'm glad I found it as a young father.

"Parenting is not for the faint of heart". Michael Pearl

"Determine what kind of person you want your child to be when they grow up and you become that person, first". Michael Pearl.

"Parenting is 5% training the child and 95% training the parent". Michael Pearl

He is right about that. Many of us did not have godly examples of parenting and a child is like a blank program. Training them should be somewhat easy, but you must train yourself first to be consistent and diligent, firm and loving. Training up your children will go much better if you are consistent and not wishy-washy and if you stay vitally connected to Jesus.

The fact that parents have the authority to physically chastise their children is not the same as saying that a parent can actually physically beat their children with a wooden rod. However, if they do it is a matter of necessity that the child is still subject to their parents, even though they may stumble at such treatment. Let those who countenance this methodology remember this, they will have to give an account to God. It will be measured to them as they have measured to their children and others.

Nothing this side of heaven will convince me that it is necessary to beat little children with wooden rods. However I do recognise that it is a reality in many homes and I also recognise that when it is done in a none perverse manner and is become truly necessary then physical chastisement is essential, even with little children. Not wooden rods however, or belts or any instrument other than the open hand and even then not in anger. If that seems too perfect a view it is in my understanding no less purist than the insistence that little children can and should of necessity be beaten with wooden rods.

Mr. Arm, when I read statements of yours like this, it makes it obvious to me that you do not believe these verses from God's Holy word: Pro 23:13 Withhold not correction from the child: for if thou beatest him with the rod, he shall not die.
Pro 23:14 Thou shalt beat him with the rod, and shalt deliver his soul from hell.

It is as plain as can be written in the English language and very easy to understand that you are ranting and raving against God's Holy word.

If that is not the case, can you please tell us how we are to obey these verses and not beat a child with a rod??? Are you trying to redefine beat, or redefine rod, or are you just advocating that we DISOBEY what God has here clearly unmistakeably commanded?

I'd also like for you to read what the above quoted John Wesley said about this verse:

Pro 22:15 Foolishness is bound in the heart of a child; but the rod of correction shall drive it far from him.

Pro 22:15 Bound - Is fixed and settled there, as being born with him, and rooted in his very nature.

(from John Wesley's Explanatory Notes on the Whole Bible)

Here is another quote from dear brother John Wesley. Notice that he says that it is CRUELTY if you do NOT whip your child (1 year old) and instill the fear of the rod in him!

“This, therefore, I cannot but earnestly repeat, — break their wills betimes; begin this great work before they can run alone, before they can speak plain, or perhaps speak at all. Whatever pains it cost, conquer their stubbornness: break the will, if you would not damn the child. I conjure you not to neglect, not to delay this! Therefore, (1.) Let a child, from a year old, be taught to fear the rod and to cry softly. In order to this, (2.) Let him have nothing he cries for; absolutely nothing, great or small; else you undo your own work. (3.) At all events, from that age, make him do as he is bid, if you whip him ten times running to effect it. Let none persuade you it is cruelty to do this; it is cruelty not to do it. Break his will now, and his soul will live, and he will probably bless you to all eternity." - John Wesley

I copied this from:
http://www.ccel.org/ccel/wesley/sermons.vi.xliii.html

I hope that some would be able to benefit from it.

Thanks, proudpapa for starting this thread. It is a much needed clarification in our day in time.

"Sermon 96 98
On Obedience to Parents

“Children, obey your parents in all things.”
Col. 3:20

1. It has been a subject of controversy for many years, whether there are any innate principles in the mind of man. But it is allowed on all hands, if there be any practical principles naturally Unplanted in the soul, that “we ought to honour our parents,” will claim this character almost before any other. It is enumerated among those universal principles by the most ancient authors and is undoubtedly found even among savages in the most barbarous nations. We may trace it through all the extent of Europe and Asia, through the wilds of Africa, and the forests of America. And it is not less, but more observable in the most civilized nations. So it was first in the eastern parts of the world, which were for so many ages the seat of empire, of learning and politeness, as well as of religion. So it was afterwards in all the Grecian states, and throughout the whole Roman Empire. In this respect, it is plain, they that “have not the” written “law, are a law unto themselves,” showing “the work,” the substance, “of the law” to be “written in their hearts.”

2. And wherever God has revealed his will to man, this law has been a part of that revelation. It has been herein opened afresh, considerably enlarged, and enforced in the strongest manner. In the Jewish revelation, the notorious breakers thereof were punishable with death. And this was one of the laws which our blessed Lord did not come to destroy, but to fulfil. Accordingly he severely reproved the Scribes and Pharisees for making it void through their traditions; clearly showing that the obligation thereof extended to all ages. It is the substance of this which St. Paul delivers to the Ephesians: (Eph. 6:1:) “Children, obey your parents in the Lord;” and again in those words to the Colossians, “Children, obey your parents in all things.” [Col. 3:20]

3. It is observable, that the Apostle enforces this duty by a threefold encouragement: First. To the Ephesians he adds, “For this is right:” It is an instance of justice as well as mercy. It is no more than their due: it is what we owe to them for the very being which we have received from them. Secondly. “This is acceptable to the Lord;” it is peculiarly pleasing to the great Father of men and angels that we should pay honour and obedience to the fathers of our flesh. Thirdly. It is “the first commandment with promise;” the first to the performance whereof a peculiar promise is annexed: “that it may be well with thee, and that thy days may be long in the land which the Lord thy God giveth thee.” This promise has been generally understood to include health and temporal blessings, as well as long life. And we have seen innumerable proofs, that it belongs to the Christian as well as the Jewish dispensation: Many remarkable instances of its accomplishment occur even at this day.

But what is the meaning of these words, “Children, obey your parents in all things?” I will endeavour, by the assistance of God, First, to explain, and, Then to apply them.

I. 1. First. I will endeavour to explain these words; and the rather, because so few people seem to understand them. Look round into the world, not the heathen but the Christian world, nay, the Reformed part of it; look among those that have the Scriptures in their own tongue; and who is there that appears even to have heard of this? Here and there a child obeys the parent out of fear, or perhaps out of natural affection. But how many children can you find that obey their fathers and mothers out of a sense of duty to God? And how many parents can you find that duly inculcate this duty upon their children? I doubt, a vast majority both of parents and children are totally ignorant of the whole affair. For the sake of these I will make it as plain as I can: But still I am thoroughly sensible, those that are not willing to be convinced will no more understand what I say than if I was talking Greek or Hebrew.

2. You will easily observe, that by parents the Apostle means both fathers and mothers, as he refers us to the Fifth Commandment, which names both the one and the other. And, however human laws may vary herein, the law of God makes no difference; but lays us under the same obligation of obeying both the one and the other.

3. But before we consider how we are to obey our parents, it may be inquired, how long we are to obey them. Are children to obey only till they run alone, till they go to school, till they can read and write, or till they are as tall as their parents, or, attain to years of discretion? Nay, if they obey only [because they cannot help it, only] because they fear to be beaten, or because otherwise they cannot procure food and raiment, what avails such obedience? Those only who obey their parents when they can live without them, and when they neither hope nor fear anything from them, shall have praise from God.

4. “But is a man that is at age, or a woman that is married, under any farther obligation to obey their parents?” With regard to marriage, although it is true that a man is to leave father and mother, and cleave unto his wife; and, by parity of reason, she is to leave father and mother, and cleave unto her husband; (in consequence of which there may be some particular cases wherein conjugal duty must take [the] place” of filial;) yet I cannot learn, either from Scripture or reason, that marriage either cancels or lessens the general obligation of filial duty. Much less does it appear that it is either cancelled or lessened by our having lived one-and-twenty years. I never understood it so in my own case. When I had lived upwards of thirty years, I looked upon myself to stand just in the same relation to my father as I did when I was ten years old. And when I was between forty and fifty, I judged myself full as much obliged to obey my mother in everything lawful, as I did when I was in my leading-strings [or hanging-sleeve coat].

5. But what is implied in, “Children, obey your parents in all things?” Certainly the First point of obedience is to do nothing which your father or mother forbids, whether it be great or small. Nothing is more plain than that the prohibition of a parent binds every conscientious child; that is, except the thing prohibited is clearly enjoined of God. Nor indeed is this all; the matter may be carried a little farther still: A tender parent may totally disapprove what he does not care flatly to forbid. What is the duty of a child in this case? How far is that disapprobation to be regarded? Whether it be equivalent to a prohibition or not, a person who would have a conscience void of offence should undoubtedly keep on the safe side, and avoid what may perhaps be evil. It is surely the more excellent way, to do nothing which you know your parents disapprove. To act otherwise seems to imply a degree of disobedience, which one of a tender conscience would wish to avoid.

6. The Second thing implied in this direction is, Do every thing which your father or mother bids, be it great or small, provided it be not contrary to any command of God. Herein God has given a power to parents, which even sovereign princes have not. The King of England, for instance, is a sovereign prince; yet he has not power to bid me do the least thing, unless the law of the land requires me so to do; for he has no power but to execute the law. The will of the king is no law to the subject. But the will of the parent is a law to the child, who is bound in conscience to submit thereto unless it be contrary to the law of God.

7. It is with admirable wisdom that the Father of spirits has given this direction, that as the strength of the parents supplies the want of strength, and the understanding of the parents the want of understanding, in their children, till they have strength and understanding of their own; so the will of the parents may [should] guide that of their children till they have wisdom and experience to guide themselves. This, therefore, is the very first thing which children have to learn, — that they are to obey their parents, to submit to their will, in all things. And this they may be inured to, long before they understand the reason of it; and, indeed, long before they are capable of understanding any of the principles of religion. Accordingly, St. Paul directs all parents to bring up their children “in the discipline and doctrine of the Lord.” For their will may be broken by proper discipline, even in their early infancy; whereas it must be a considerable time after, before they are capable of instruction. This, therefore, is the first point of all: Bow down their wills from the very first dawn of reason; and, by habituating them to submit to your will, prepare them for submitting to the will of their Father which is in heaven.

8. But how few children do we find, even of six or eight years old, that understand anything of this! Indeed, how should they understand it, seeing they have none to teach them? Are not their parents, father as well as mother, full as ignorant of the matter as themselves? Whom do you find, even among religious people, that have the least conception of it? Have not you seen the proof of it with your own eyes? Have not you been present when a father or mother has said, “My child, do so or so?” The child, without any ceremony, answered peremptorily, “I won’t.” And the parent quietly passes it by, without any further notice. And does he or she not see, that, by this cruel indulgence, they are training up their child, by flat rebellion against their parents, to rebellion against God? Consequently they are training him up for the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels! Did they duly consider this they would neither eat, nor drink, nor sleep, till they had taught him a better lesson, and made him thoroughly afraid of ever giving that diabolical answer again.

9. Let me reason this case a little farther with you parents that fear God. If you do fear God, how dare you suffer a child above a year old to say, “I will do” what you forbid, or, “I won’t do” what you bid, and to go unpunished? Why do not you stop him at once, that he may never dare to say so again? Have you no bowels, no compassion for your child? No regard for his salvation or destruction? Would you suffer him to curse or swear in your presence, and take no notice of it? Why, disobedience is as certain a way to damnation as cursing and swearing. Stop him, stop him at first, in the name of God. Do not “spare the rod, and spoil the child.” If you have not the heart of a tiger, do not give up your child to his own will, that is, to the devil. Though it be pain to yourself, yet pluck your offspring out of the lion’s teeth. Make them submit, that they may not perish. Break their will, that you may save their soul.

10. I cannot tell how to enforce this point sufficiently. To fix it upon your minds more strongly, permit me to add part of a letter on the subject, printed some years ago: —

“In order to form the minds of children, the first thing to be done is to conquer their will. To inform their understanding is a work of time, and must proceed by slow degrees; but the subjecting the will is a thing which must be done at once; and the sooner the better. For by our neglecting timely correction they contract a stubbornness which is hardly ever to be conquered, and never without using that severity which would be as painful to us as to the children. Therefore, I call those cruel parents who pass for kind and indulgent; who permit their children to contract habits which they know must be afterwards broken.

“I insist upon conquering the wills of children betimes; because this is the only foundation for a religious education. When this is thoroughly done, then a child is capable of being governed by the reason of its parent, till its own understanding comes to maturity.

“I cannot yet dismiss this subject. As self-will is the root of all sin and misery, so whatever cherishes this in children, ensures their after-wretchedness and irreligion; and whatever checks and mortifies it, promotes their future happiness and piety. This is still more evident if we consider that religion is nothing else but the doing the will of God, and not our own; and that self-will being the grand impediment to our temporal and eternal happiness, no indulgence of it can be trivial; no denial of it unprofitable. Heaven or hell depends on this alone. So that the parent who studies to subdue it in his children, works together with God in the saving of a soul. The parent who indulges it does the devil’s work, makes religion impracticable, salvation unattainable; and does all that in him lies to damn his child, soul and body, for ever!

“This, therefore, I cannot but earnestly repeat, — break their wills betimes; begin this great work before they can run alone, before they can speak plain, or perhaps speak at all. Whatever pains it cost, conquer their stubbornness: break the will, if you would not damn the child. I conjure you not to neglect, not to delay this! Therefore, (1.) Let a child, from a year old, be taught to fear the rod and to cry softly. In order to this, (2.) Let him have nothing he cries for; absolutely nothing, great or small; else you undo your own work. (3.) At all events, from that age, make him do as he is bid, if you whip him ten times running to effect it. Let none persuade you it is cruelty to do this; it is cruelty not to do it. Break his will now, and his soul will live, and he will probably bless you to all eternity.

11. On the contrary, how dreadful are the consequences of that accursed kindness which gives children their own wills, and does not bow down their necks from their infancy! It is chiefly owing to this, that so many religious parents bring up children that have no religion at all; children that, when they are grown up, have no regard for them, perhaps set them at nought, and are ready to pick out their eyes! Why is this, but because their wills were not broken at first? — because they were not inured from their early infancy to obey their parents in all things, and to submit to their wills as to the will of God? — because they were not taught from the very first dawn of reason, that the will of their parents was, to them, the will of God; that to resist it was rebellion against God, and an inlet to all ungodliness?

II. 1. This may suffice for the explication of the text: I proceed to the application of it. And permit me, First, to apply to you that are parents, and, as such concerned to teach your children. Do you know these things yourselves? Are you thoroughly convinced of these important truths? Have you laid them to heart? and have you put them in practice, with regard to your own children? Have you inured them to discipline, before they were capable of instruction? Have you broken their wills from their earliest infancy; and do you still continue so to do, in opposition both to nature and custom? Did you explain to them, as soon as their understanding began to open, the reasons of your proceeding thus? Did you point out to them the will of God as the sole law of every intelligent creature; and show them it is the will of God that they should obey you in all things? Do you inculcate this over and over again till they perfectly comprehend it? O never be weary of this labour of love! and your labour will not always be in vain.

2. At least, do not teach them to disobey, by rewarding them for disobedience. Remember! you do this every time you give them anything because they cry for it. And herein they are apt scholars: If you reward them for crying, they will certainly cry again. So that there is no end, unless you make it a sacred rule, to give them nothing which they cry for. And the shortest way to do this is, never suffer them to cry aloud. Train them up to obedience in this one instance, and you will easily bring them to obey in others. Why should you not begin to-day? Surely you see what is the most excellent way; best for your child, and best for your own soul. Why then do you disobey? Because you are a coward; because you want resolution. And doubtless it requires [no small resolution to begin and persist herein. It certainly requires] no small patience, more than nature ever gave. But the grace of God is sufficient for you; you can do all things through Christ that strengtheneth you. This grace is sufficient to give you diligence, as well as resolution; otherwise laziness will be as great a hindrance as cowardice. For without much pains you cannot conquer: Nothing can be done with a slack hand; labour on; never tire, lay line upon line, till patience has its perfect work.

3. But there is another hindrance that is full as hard to be conquered as either laziness or cowardice. It is called fondness, and is usually mistaken for love: But, O, how widely different from it! It is real hate; and hate of the most mischievous kind, tending to destroy both body and soul in hell! O give not way to it any longer, no, not for a moment. Fight against it with your might! for the love of God; for the love of your children; for the love of your own soul!

4. I have one word more to say to parents; to mothers in particular. If, in spite of all the Apostle can say, you encourage your children by your example to “adorn” themselves “with gold, or pearls, or costly apparel,” you and they must drop into the pit together. But if they do it, though you set them a better example, still it is yours, as well as their fault; for if you did not put any ornament on your little child that you would not wear yourself, (which would be utter distraction, and far more inexcusable than putting it on your own arms or head), yet you did not inure them to obey you from their infancy, and teach them the duty of it, from at least two years old. Otherwise, they would not have dared to do anything, great or small, contrary to your will. Whenever, therefore, I see the fine-dressed daughter of a plain-dressed mother, I see at once the mother is defective either in knowledge or religion. Either she is ignorant of her own or her child’s duty, or she has not practised what she knows.

5. I cannot dismiss this subject yet. I am pained continually at seeing religious parents suffer their children to run into the same folly of dress, as if they had no religion at all. In God’s name, why do you suffer them to vary a hair’s breadth from your example? “Why, they will do it?” They will! Whose fault is that? Why did not you break their will from their infancy? At least do it now; better late than never. It should have been done before they were two years old: It may be done at eight or ten, though with far more difficulty. However, do it now; and accept that difficulty as the just reward for your past neglect. Now, at least carry your point, whatever it costs. Be not mealy-mouthed; say not, like foolish Eli, “Nay, my children, it is no good report which I hear of you,” instead of restraining them with a strong hand; but speak (though as calmly as possible, yet) firmly and peremptorily, “I will have it so;” and do as you say. Instil diligently into them the love of plain dress, and hatred of finery. Show them the reason of your own plainness of dress, and show it is equally reasonable for them. Bid defiance to indolence, to cowardice, to foolish fondness, and at all events carry your point; if you love their souls, make and keep them just as plain as yourselves. And I charge you, grandmothers before God, do not hinder your daughters herein. Do not dare to give the child anything which the mother denies. Never take the part of the children against their parent; never blame her before them. If you do not strengthen her authority, as you ought to do, at least do not weaken it; but if you have either sense or piety left, help her on in the work of real kindness

6. Permit me now to apply myself to you, children; particularly you that are the children of religious parents. Indeed if you have no fear of God before your eyes,“I have no concern with you at present; but if you have, if you really fear God, and have a desire to please him, you desire to understand all his commandments, the fifth in particular. Did you ever understand it yet? Do you now understand what is your duty to your father and mother? Do you know, at least do you consider, that by the divine appointment their will is law to you? Have you ever considered the extent of that obedience to your parents which God requires? “Children, obey your parents in all things.” No exception, but of things unlawful. Have you practised your duty in this extent? Did you ever so much as intend it?

7. Deal faithfully with your own souls. Is your conscience now clear in this matter? Do you do nothing which you know to be contrary to the will either of your father or mother? Do you never do anything (though ever so much inclined to it) which he or she forbids? Do you abstain from everything which they dislike, as far as you can in conscience? On the other hand, are you careful to do whatever a parent bids? Do you study and contrive how to please them, to make their lives as easy and pleasant as you can? Whoever you are that add this to your general care to please God in all things, blessed art thou of the Lord! “Thy days shall be long in the land which the Lord thy God giveth thee.”

8. But as for you who are little concerned about this matter, who do not make it a point of conscience to obey your parents in all things, but sometimes obey them, as it happens, and sometimes not; who frequently do what they forbid or disapprove, and neglect what they bid you do; suppose you awake out of sleep, that you begin to feel yourself a sinner, and begin to cry to God for mercy, is it any wonder that you find no answer, while you are under the guilt of unrepented sin? How can you expect mercy from God till you obey your parents? But suppose you have, by an uncommon miracle of mercy, tasted of the pardoning love of God, can it be expected, although you hunger and thirst after righteousness, after the perfect love of God, that you should ever attain it, ever be satisfied therewith, while you live in outward sin, in the wilful transgression of a known law of God, in disobedience to your parents? Is it not rather a wonder, that he has not withdrawn his Holy Spirit from you? that he still continues to strive with you, though you continually grieve his Spirit? O grieve him no more! By the grace of God, obey them in all things from this moment! As soon as you come home, as soon as you set foot within the door, begin an entirely new course! Look upon your father and mother with new eyes; see them as representing your Father which is in heaven: Endeavour, study, rejoice to please, to help, to obey them in all things: Behave not barely as their child, but as their servant for Christ’s sake. O how will you then love one another! In a manner unknown before. God will bless you to them, and them to you: All around will feel that God is with you of a truth. Many shall see it and praise God; and the fruit of it will remain when both you and they are lodged in Abraham’s bosom. "

Mr. Arm, if you think that your fear tactics are going to stop sincere Christians from obeying God's Word, you are deeply mistaken. Jesus has already warned us about people like you:

Mat 10:28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

Mat 10:17 But beware of men: for they will deliver you up to the councils, and they will scourge you in their synagogues;
Mat 10:18 And ye shall be brought before governors and kings for my sake, for a testimony against them and the Gentiles.
Mat 10:19 But when they deliver you up, take no thought how or what ye shall speak: for it shall be given you in that same hour what ye shall speak.
Mat 10:20 For it is not ye that speak, but the Spirit of your Father which speaketh in you.
Mat 10:21 And the brother shall deliver up the brother to death, and the father the child: and the children shall rise up against their parents, and cause them to be put to death.
Mat 10:22 And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that endureth to the end shall be saved.

Since you refuse to see any other opinion but your own twisted view which totally ignores God's plain instruction, please remember that you will be one day standing before the Author of the Book who will judge you in front of all people for your ranting and raving against His instructions. You are joining the multitudes of earth who call His instructions child abuse.

Unless you have a drastic change of heart some day and truly repent for your attack on His Word, get ready to hear these words from THE Judge of the universe:

"I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity."

RE: ///Those of you who do this will go to prison in the end and I will be a witness against you. Just as this lost opportunity will be a witness against you. It is shameful beyond words that I could have pressed the specific point so clearly regarding the use of physical rods to beat little children and not one of you have had the common sense or the decency to actually say "I don't actually do that". Why is this. It is because some of you do in fact do it, have done it or else advocate it. Shame on you.///

No one here is advocating abuse as you have misinterpreted and reworded.

The understanding of the passages that include the usage of the rod in this discussion has historicaly been understood as refering to the switch.

In this perverse age that we live many Godly Children such as Roy Daniels, Daniel Kenaston and a multitude of others have been raised with the usage of the loving rod.

RE:///Those of you who do this will go to prison in the end and I will be a witness against you. Just as this lost opportunity will be a witness against you.///

This could be the most hate filled statement that I have ever read on SI.

Edit: persecution is trully coming.

to train up a child p 44-46
"Guilt only occurs when one honestly judges himself to be worthy of blame. One may inappropriately be convinced of blame, but guilt is nonetheless self-incrimination for percieved wrongdoing. Bad behavior causes guilt. So does rejection and ridicule, if the child becomes convinced that he is the one in the wrong.
Emotionally unstable parents sometimes use guilt to manipulate their children. Parents who try to shame or humiliate their children into right behavior may see the child temporarily acquiesce. But, obedience performed out of desperation of guilt only deepens guilt, putting the child further out of touch with repentance and healing.
Guilt is never in itself restorative. That is, it does not tend toward less blameworthy actions, for , though it directs the soul away from the activity causing the guilt, there is no strength or moral courage in guilt itself. On the contrary, the guilt-ridden soul is a slave to every temptation. Compounded guilt abolishes motivation to do right. The anguish of failure and the dread anticipation of it lowers one's expectations of self. Unresolved guilt lowers self-esteem to the point where one does not expect to do other than fail.
This reality has caused modern psychologists to view guilt itself as the culprit. To address guilt as if it were the disease is like dealing with the pain of a toothache but not the tooth.
Guilt is an essential part of our natural,moral self. Without it we would be like a smoke detector with no alarm. But guilt is only a means to an end, a temporary condition. It's the souls pain, as when we touch something hot, designed to give us warning, and a strong signal to change our actions. It is a great blessing to feel genuine guilt, both as a sign of life and as a healthy response for the sin-sick soul.
Guilty souls who are resigned to their condition are often seen inflicting pain and suffering upon themselves. It is estimated that up to 15% of adolescents have delibertly inflicted pain or wounds upon themselves. Some children are covered with scars;others have broken their bones. In some way, they are satisfying a need tosuffer for their sins. This self-abuse is an unconscious attempt tp "pay the fiddler" The conscience is indelibly imprinted with a conviction that sin deserves punishment. We intuitively know that wroungdoing not only deserves punishment, but will one day face punishment. Frome the earliest awakenings of conscience, a child is in the grip of this reality. It remains a basic presupposition of life.
Guilt is the law's cheif witness against the sinner. If guilt is not resolved, it will shakle the damned in the eternal misery of their sins. Like a zealous and fanatical prosecuting attorney, the conscience will not drop its case untill it is sure that justice has been done. A guilty soul is a soul that feels it deserves punishment equal to the offense. This is a psychological reality. The guilt-burdened soul cries out for the lashes and nails of justice. That is why the soul of man never rest untill the conscience has been purged by a believing look at the bleeding Lamb of God.
Christians find release from their guilt through the Savior who suffered the curse of their sins, but their children cannot yet understand that the Creator has been lashed and nailed in their place. Yet, parents need not wait untill their children are old enough to understand the vicarious death of Christ to purge their children of guilt. God has provided parents with a tool to cleanse their children of guilt-the rod of correction.
I observed a small child who,upon being caught in a misdeed, turned her backside to her parents, pulled her diaper down, and gave herself three slaps on the bare bottom. The offering, though cute, was not accepted. The lawgiver must administer this kind of chastisement in order to effectively remove guilt. A child knows but one lawgiver-his parents.
Do not follow the modern philosophy of trying to eliminate guilt by fudging on the standards or by pumping the guilty child up with false self-worth. Keep the standards high-as high as the person of Christ. Let guilt come, and while the child is yet too young to understand, purge his guilt by means of the rod. When understanding finally comes, he will readily grasp the principles of the cross.

Parents hold in their hands (in the form of a little switch) the power to absolve the child of guilt, cleanse his soul, instruct his spirit, strengthen his resolve, and give him a fresh start through a confidence that all indebtedness is paid in full. "The blueness of a wound cleanseth away evil: so do stripes the inward parts of the belly"(Prov.20:30). "inward parts of the belly" is a description of the physical sensations associated with guilt.

Edit: double post

In the new testament, we find this:

Heb 12:8 Now if you are exempt from correction and left without discipline in which all [of God's children] share, then you are illegitimate offspring and not true sons [at all].(2)
Heb 12:9 Moreover, we have had earthly fathers who disciplined us and we yielded [to them] and respected [them for training us]. Shall we not much more cheerfully submit to the Father of spirits and so [truly] live?
Heb 12:10 For [our earthly fathers] disciplined us for only a short period of time and chastised us as seemed proper and good to them; but He disciplines us for our certain good, that we may become sharers in His own holiness.
Heb 12:11 For the time being no discipline brings joy, but seems grievous and painful; but afterwards it yields a peaceable fruit of righteousness to those who have been trained by it [a harvest of fruit which consists in righteousness--in conformity to God's will in purpose, thought, and action, resulting in right living and right standing with God]. [AMP]

+++++++++++++++++++++++
Since his audience was Hebrew, it is obvious that he is referring to the same kind of chastisement that Hebrews were accustomed to (found in the book of Proverbs).

Some of us actually know what parental violence really means. Not the simplicity of having our bottoms smacked but having boiling liquids poured over our bodies, having our feet beaten with wooden rods, having our limbs twisted in rage and in finality having to endure all of this only to be compelled to agree with that which was false in the enquiry of violence.

It is sad to me that you were obviously abused as a child, but is is more sad to me that because of your abuse, you are rejecting God's plan for loving discipline which includes some physical pain. Those of us who were beaten with switches and belts by loving parents who did it for our good are deeply appreciative and eternally grateful for the pain that was inflicted on our physical bodies under the plan of lovingly training us and using the pain inflicted in that manner.

Your reasoning is based on your personal experiences, but any such reasoning which goes against God's Word is like all such chaff which will be blown away ... but God's Word endures forever.

When one of the founders of your branch of theology takes a such a strong stand in favor of the discipline and chastisement found in the book of Proverbs (the use of the rod), it should make you stop and realize that your view which has been tainted by bad experiences could be horribly mistaken.

Many young ladies who grow up getting raped by men in their families lose all confidence in God's plan (of one man with one woman until death) and feel perfectly justified becoming lesbians, but it still doesn't change God's perfect plan regardless of their bad experiences.

Amr,

It is clear that you are responding in the most extreme sense in order to win your point.

You castigate fellow believers as religious bigots and other names in order to paint an extreme picture of them.

You have been abused and are now seem to be abusive yourself, but rather with your mouth and pen.

Emotional abuse upon children is much worse than a switch.

As I said before, you are superimposing your childhood experience upon the people of God today. You have not known a father's love in terms of godly correction, therefore your view is skewed.

And you are ready and willing to use the world as your "bully" against your brethren. Is it possible that you have not been healed of abuse and have found your own sophisticated ways to abuse others? Please be truthful. Is it a practice of yours to pound people into submission with your denigrating words?

In the new testament, we find this……..

The words here are written to fully grown men and women and it speaks about the discipline and the love of God regarding legitimacy. Next time an angel of God descends into your church with a wooden rod and beats you into submission, just let me know right!

When bitter experiences in a person's life close his mind to reality, no amount of proof can suffice to open such a mind to accept the truth.

Thousands perhaps millions of people could testify of loving parents who used rods, belts, switches etc. to discipline and train them in a good and positive manner, but it still would not change the mind of a person who bitterly equates all pain inflicted on children with his own childhood horrors.

Such a mind is not capable of unbiasedly reasoning nor learning on the subject ... unless a miracle happens to heal that heart that is still hurting.

God used the Children of Israel as a "rod" against His enemies and He uses the Church as a rod to discipline members of the Body as in 1 Corinthians 5. Although, church discipline is somewhat non-existent anymore.

But your entitled to your opinion. I just disagree with your opinion as not being in harmony with my understanding of God's word. I also disagree with your characterization of what abuse is.

Interesting how one man's concept of love is another man's concept of abuse. Unbelievers think God is abusive not understanding the principles behind His ways.

I wonder if there are any adults who received "lovingly administered corporal punishment" when they were young and did not turn out so hot? And I wonder if there are any adults who never got a paddling in their life and turned out wonderfully (like my mother and my wife)?

I guess my point is that corporal punishment (or lack thereof) is no guarantee of anything, although scripture certainly seems to condone it.

Pilgrim wrote:
"Unbelievers think God is abusive not understanding the principles behind His ways."

I think it is safe to say that even believers (like me) have difficulty understanding the principles behind some of His ways (e.g. Num 31:17-18)

tuc

I think it is safe to say that even believers (like me) have difficulty understanding the principles behind some of His ways (e.g. Num 31:17-18)

Granted. Though we do not understand, we do not consider His ways foolish. Because we know Him, we know His ways are according to His character which is always motivated by love.

witnesses for biblical chastisment

1. The Scripture!
in all of this discussion, not one Scripture has been provided that would convince any Unbiased Observer that the Scripture is opposed to a loving use of a switch by an emotionaly stable parent for child training.
however many scriptures have been given that support the usage of the rod in child training!
The meaning of rod has been challenged but not because Scripture indicates nor the Spirit indicates that the traditional understanding of the Rod is incorrect, But instead because some have personal emotional biasness on the subject.

2. Inward Certainty!
All men hold the truth, and I do not believe that this subject is any different. If we are honest we know the truth on this subject!
The clear reality is that this is evident even in those whom are deeply opposed on this subject, in that they almost always delibertly and dishonestly go to great lengths to misconstrue, exagerate and wrongfully sterotype others inorder to make their opinion sound more convincing, and often stoop to the lowest of the low with threats similar to the attacks that have been presented in this disscusion.

3. Those more Godly than I !
I am aware of several of The Godly preachers on SI who publicaly defend the use of a spanking when it comes to the Godly upbringing of children, I personally am not aware of even one that has openly opposed the traditional and biblical perspective.

4 Worldly Perspective !
Secular society is becoming more and more hostile to traditional biblical chastisment, almost to the point of forcing Christians to stop raising their children in away that was considered a social norm less than a half a century ago. The enlightened Christian is well aware of the days that we are living in and the reason that the (little g) god of this world is so opposed to biblical chastisment.

Edit: another witness :

5. success !
The success of men whom strongly advocate and even teach the biblical loving useage of the rod. success like what the Pearl's, Kenaston's and Daniel's have had in child rearing, causes me to listen and learn when they speak on the subject of child traning,( I still have much to learn from these wise bible believing preachers on the topic of child training)

Hi amrkelly,

Your first post to this thread was rude and insulting amrkelly you wrote and I quote :

///This chap would have been better putting his much education to something useful. Its frankly incredible that he begins with an issue regarding the discipline of children and end with the words "criminals". In my view that just about sums it up. Shame on such men as these!///

You did not offer a sound and biblical alternative to the the prespective offered in the artical but instead you where rude and disrespectful!
You took the hyperbole use of the word "criminals" that was contained in an included quote within the artical and ran with that as your base of attack toward the artical

How would it make you feel if someone responded to a thread of yours in such a manner ?? It did not bother me much but it was rude and you know that it was!
and you say "shame on such men as these!" many Godly men hold to simmiler perspectives as the artical advocates

I have had difficulty following you on this thread, and you know that!
It is not only I, but everyone who posted on this thread had difficulty following you on this thread!

Relieze that very few of us inturpet the Scripture from your dispensational perspective, I do not even know of very many preachers presented on SI that inturpet the Scriptures from your dispensation perspective.

So with this clear relization that you are not ignorant of this reality, causes statements such as you made to lorddoitagain to be without warrent.

amrkelly you wrote and I quote
/// The arrests are already happening. I thought you read well enough. Seemingly not. Who is able to say it plainly.///

Is that a nice thing to say
///I thought you read well enough. Seemingly not./// ??

Is that how you like others to speak to you, amrkelly, when you have difficulty following them ??

and than you amrkelly said and I quote
RE: /// And just in case you didn't understand me I actually truly meant what I have said. In that day I will bear witness against you. The fact that you have no idea what I am talking about is simply because of your ignorance.///

Is that how you like to be spoken to ?? called ignorant because you misunderstood someones post ??

Told that you will be witnessed against by them because you hold a difference of opinion.

I do not beat nor abuse my children even according to my States Laws and I retain a strong community of support that can and would attest on my behalf if such false allagations ever arises but I must say that You amrkelly wrote some very hurtfull stuff here if at all you are implying the such, to us believers in these post, I do not care rather you are implying to the here and now or some Millenium to come.

amrkelly you wrote and I quote : ////The abuse of children by believers is a well documented and full account. Believers always claim that the "rod" means discipline and yet many actually do use physical rods. It is illegal and it is an imprisonable offence. Those of you who do this will go to prison in the end and I will be a witness against you. Just as this lost opportunity will be a witness against you. It is shameful beyond words that I could have pressed the specific point so clearly regarding the use of physical rods to beat little children and not one of you have had the common sense or the decency to actually say "I don't actually do that". Why is this. It is because some of you do in fact do it, have done it or else advocate it. Shame on you.

So here is much needed clarification in our time also. It is a criminal offence to beat little children with pieces of wood. Lastly I want you to reflect on this. When you hear the feet of those who come to arrest you it will be too late. The evidence will be gathered in already ////

We are all against abuse no one here is advocating abuse, but you misconstrue everyones perspective whom disagrees with you on this subject.

I ask you to examine these statements of yours and reflect how you would feel if another poster attacked you in such a manner.

Very good article.

Switching is effective in moderating a child's behavior. We used it (had a child then when roaming our place if she found a nice stick would bring it to me to use), our children use it on their children. While grandma thinks the grandchildren are like little angels it is because the parents do not allow them to act like little devils.

Modern child psychologists advocate the use of reasoning with a child to get him to obey as the first, second, third line of parental aggression in this regard. The reality is the child does not have a good sense of reasoning because in his view life revolves around me and me alone. He must learn to submit to authority whether it seems reasonable or not. Understanding will come with maturity and a child is not mature - they are selfishness personified.

When our children were little, Dr. Benjamin Spock wrote a lot about child training. His philosophy drastically changed the way Americans look at parenting. Unfortunately, I bought into some of it at the time. All I will say about it is that it creates more frustration for the parent because the child's heart is not set to obey but in learning how to manipulate mom better.

Good article. Thanks for posting.

After posting I did a tad bit of research into Dr. Spock and found references to a Christian leader writing about child training. Mr.John B.Watson, who wrote in the 1920's, was in error as well as he advocated harsh treatment - do not allow a child to sit on your lap, e.g.

As I consider child training and the use of the rod, it seems to me writers, experts are falling off into the ditch on one side or another. Since this is the case I suspect one would do well to ignore the 'experts' and do what your Biblical inspired instinct tells you to do. Even Dr.Dobson would agree with this! And....I think Dr. Spock eventually came around to saying the same.

I think the "experts" muddle more issues then what they work to solve!!

Greetings

When I was growing up I did not receive much in the way of spankings or discipline with the rod. Both my parents were very easy going and for the most part did not subscribe to that way of dealing with their children. My mom was into reading all the latest child psychology books when I was a little one. I remember on many occasions when she would sit me down and “talk” to me about how what I did made me feel. There was never any consequence or punishment, never any correction just long discussions about my feelings. She would tell me how what I did made her feel and lay huge guilt trips on me. There would be times when she would pull up past wrongs and let out long heavy sighs then rattle on about how sad or difficult my actions had made things for her. Instead of just dealing with what I had done it became a tool, a way to guilt me into doing what she wanted. This did not teach me that what I had done was sinful or wrong, but it did teach me how to manipulate others. I soon learned to copy her technique and began using guilt and “feelings” to get my way.

My dad was not around much when I was small, he was a musician and had his own band so for months at a time he would be on the road playing music and that left a pretty heavy burden on my mom. My dad did not like confrontation so even when he was home he did little to involve himself when it came to discipline. As I grew older I thought my parents were cool, they were hippies that did not believe in old fashioned ideas about disciplining their kids. My friends parents set out rules that had to be followed, and there were punishments when those rules were broken, my parents were more like really cool friends who said and did nothing when I did something wrong. I had freedom to do what I want, when I wanted and sadly I did. I tried my first cigarette when I was eleven years old.(Did not like it though) I tried my first beer that summer too. I was hanging out to all hours of the night with my sisters and their older friends and lying the whole time to my mom about it. When my mother found out what was happening she was devastated, she said my dad would be home in two weeks and then he would deal with me and my sisters and put an end to this behavior. I remember waiting for my dad to come back home, I remembered thinking he was finally really going to deal with us and it was going to be bad. I imagined we would get spankings, and be grounded. He would tell my sisters they would no longer be allowed to be friends with any of those that they had been running wild with. I was sure that what had happened was enough to finally get him to act...I was wrong. He came home and said nothing, and a week later he was gone again. There never was any punishment, no groundings, no guidance, and no rules put into place. My sisters continued to hang out with their friends and I came to the very sad but true realization that my dad didn't really care enough to do anything when it came to his children. He said he loved us but could never really give of himself in any way to show or demonstrate that love. I learned after that summer that my dad wasn't a “cool friend”, he was just to busy and involved in his own life doing his own thing to take the time to be what I needed most, a father. As crazy as it sounds to some who speak so strongly against spankings I would have been thrilled to know my dad cared enough to actually set up rules and punish me when I disobeyed. I would have been happy to know my mother loved me enough to want to teach me right from wrong and not just talk endlessly about my feelings. Talking about how “I” feel all the time did little to point me to JESUS all it really did was teach me to focus on self...

God bless
mj

The 3rd of 11 messages on The Godly Home

video sermon on same subject: https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/myvideo/photo.php?lid=2905

Let’s all kneel together for prayer. “Our Father we come to you in the name of Jesus tonight. We thank you Lord that you’ve put within us those kind of desires. Lord, we’re the people of God. We’re your people. We’re different. People don’t understand us. But oh, our Father, we’ve committed our lives into your hands, and we’ve committed our hearts to you God. We shall follow you. We shall walk with you. We shall obey your commandments. Though many will not understand us God, it doesn’t matter to us. We come to you tonight in Jesus’ name, and Lord I pray that you will meet with us tonight. I pray, oh Father, for the sweet presence of your Spirit to be with us tonight. I pray Lord, that you will illuminate the eyes of our understanding. God I pray that you will make your Word alive to each one of our hearts tonight. God I pray that you’ll change us, and I pray Lord, that you’ll change our homes by the message this evening. Lord, may we not be the same after we leave this place tonight. Lord, we ask it in the name of thy son, the Lord Jesus with thanksgiving, Amen.

We greet each one in the name of the Lord Jesus. We’re going to change the direction this evening, the direction of the messages; and we’re going to speak about disciplining children tonight. My goal for this evening’s message is to convince you that using the rod is one of the most loving things that you can do for your children. I found one of these downstairs – there’s a couple of them down there, and I found one; that I’d like to just use it every now and then through the message. But I would like to convince you this evening, that using this rod, this paddle, whatever you want to call it, is one of the most loving things that you can do for your children and with your children. I’d also like to convince you that’s it’s a sin if you don’t. God doesn’t leave it as just an option for some to choose and some not to choose; but I’d like to convince you that it’s a sin if you don’t.

My mind goes back to a time when I had a couple in my home who did not believe in spanking their children. It was very interesting to sit and visit with them and watch their children. Their children were just like everybody else’s children – and they were unruly and they were moving this way – and running over here, and going this direction… I kept watching the parents and they kept gently pleading with the children to be good and sit still and the children would get up and move again. Then they’d go over and say, “Please Johnny, would you please calm down…” This happened all evening long as I sat there and visited with them, and of course they already told me that, “They don’t believe in spanking their children. They believe there are other ways they can motivate their children to be good.” And this was a little bit the discussion that we had had earlier, and I was watching all of this. It’s very interesting to me, that about, I think about three years after that little meeting in our home, somebody else gave them a set of the Home Tapes and they listened to them, and when they came to this tape, they listened to it with an open heart, took an evaluation of their children, and realized they’d made a great big mistake by not chastening their children. And the father picked up a rod, and he said, “His home will never be the same.”

Well that’s what I’d like to do this evening. I realize that when I hold this up here that a lot of you have different feelings about it, and maybe your father and your mother used it in a wrong way on you, and because of that, you don’t have very good ideas about it. Well I hope this evening by God’s grace, to change your mind, so that you don’t view this as some “mean” thing that I have in my hand tonight, but rather you see it as one of the loving ways that God has ordained that you train your children up to be godly, and a godly testimony upon this earth.

I want to say this also: We use this at our house. We use it often at our house. It gets used more on the younger ones than the older ones. But we use it often at our house, and my children love me. They love me very much. They honor me. In fact, they honor me and love me more than I deserve. I find myself many times sitting down in my house, and just weeping over the honor and the love that my children give to me.

I believe that the using of this rod is one of the reasons why my children love me and honor me so much. Because I use this rod. And I want to convince you this evening, of the benefit of using it to train and guide your children.

This may surprise you, but many times after we use the rod in our house, the children will come to us and say, “Papa, thank you. Thank you for spanking me. I needed that.” That may surprise you. But little Samuel, he gives this testimony, and he says it all the time around the house, “I don’t enjoy the spankings, but I sure do like the feeling that I get in my heart after one.”

We’re going to learn why this evening, why, the children can come and say thank you after they’ve received a spanking. And if I could just say a few words to the children in this room this evening: I prayed for you today. All you children that are here, I prayed for you today – that you won’t despise me this evening. And that’s a prayer that I pray almost every time that I spank my own children. That my children would not despise me, but rather, that they would love me. I claim the promise in the Word of God, that the children would not despise me, but love me after I spank them. And I prayed for all you children; that you would not despise me. I’m not your enemy tonight, I’m your friend! Even though I’m going to do everything that I know by God’s grace to convince your parents to use something like this on your bottom. I’m your friend, and this is your friend. You may not understand that now, but you will understand it someday. You’ll know what a blessed paddle this is up here. This one’s broken, by the way. Someone glued it, but it’s broken already. I’m not concerned about that, especially this one, it’s only made out of pine. But it’s not so bad if you have a paddle like this and break it. Now if you have an oak one, I’d be concerned about that. This is just a thin, Pine paddle. I don’t think you ought to be so worried if you break a thin, Pine paddle on the behind of your children.

The devil has lied to us. He has lied to us. We have swallowed the philosophies of the world that tell us that this is a negative form of discipline. It’s not a negative form of discipline; it’s one of the most positive forms of discipline you can use. Now there are others, but this is a positive form of discipline. And if in your mind, even now, while you sit here, you’re thinking those kind of thoughts, you know, “Oh – that’s terrible…” and “How can he stand up there and hold that thing so boldly like that?” If I’m making you feel uncomfortable, I’d say you swallowed some of the philosophies of the world, and you ought to acknowledge it already in your heart and say, “God, maybe I haven’t looked at this right. Would you just teach me tonight?” Open up your heart! This is not some “mean” thing. This is a loving stick that I have in my hand up here. The devil has lied to us.

This rod will bring order, where there’s chaos. It’ll bring peace, where there’s turmoil. It’ll bring freedom, where there’s in your children’s lives. It’ll bring zeal, where there’s apathy in their lives. Many people, many people react to the spanking of the children. In fact, it’s getting more and more that way in America, that it seems if things keep going in the direction that they’re going, we’ll see the day when it will be against the law to pick up a stick like this and spank your child. There are countries in the world where it is already against the law. And there are countries in the world where Christians will not spank their children, because they’ll be thrown in jail if anybody finds out about it, and they’ll lose their children if anybody finds out about it.

A lot of people react to the spanking of the children. The world says, “It’s cruelty. It’s suppression. The child will hate you. It will cause rebellion in their hearts.” But nothing could be further from the truth. Those who withhold the rod are the ones whose children put them in the rest homes. Did you ever think about that? The rest homes are just full and running over today. Who puts their father and mother in the rest homes? But the children who never had the rod used on them. That’s an interesting observation.

The using of the rod goes against your natural love. If you’re here this evening, and your poor heart says, “Oh, I could never spank my children.” You are a victim of natural love. And natural love is okay. I think we need to love our children. I think we need to be filled with love when we see them running to us. But if that natural love stops us from disciplining them with a rod, then that natural love needs to be crucified and replaced with spiritual love, which is agape love, which is God-like love, which is love that love’s by principle, and not by feeling. That’s what we’re speaking about this evening - disciplining the children, a love that loves by principle and not be feeling.

Now the Holy Spirit inspired some very powerful words on the use of the rod. The Bible says that the rod will give wisdom unto your children. The Bible says that the rod will cleanse away evil from your children. The Bible says that the rod is an expression of love. The Bible says that the rod will clear the conscience of your child. The Bible says that the rod will keep your child from going to hell. That’s what the Bible says. The Bible says that it will give calm and order into your child’s life. So let’s look into some of these verses this evening.

We’re going to be in the book of Proverbs, as we talk about the disciplining of children. And we’ll start in Proverbs chapter 13, and just go down through the book of Proverbs. Proverbs 13:24. Now in my Bible, I have a few words circled, then I have a little definition by the words that I have circled. I would encourage you to do that if you feel free in your heart. Reading Proverbs 13:24. “He that spareth his rod, hateth his son. But he that loveth him, chasteneth him betimes.” Now in this verse we want to look at a few words. The first word we want to look at is “spareth”. That word spareth means, “hold back”. He that “holds back” the rod, hateth his son. That word “spare” doesn’t mean that you never use the rod; it means you “hold back” the rod. You won’t use it like you should. It doesn’t mean you never use the rod. We know what the word spare means. “He that soweth sparingly reaps sparingly”. It just simply means, “He who holds back the rod, and doesn’t use it like they should, hateth his son.”

Now the next word we want to look at is the word “hateth”. The Hebrew word picture for the word “hateth” is “one who is standing and facing the enemy”. The Hebrew word picture for the word “hateth” there is like one who is standing and ready to fight against the enemy. If you can get that picture in your mind. So look at it again. “He that spareth the rod, that holds back the use of the rod, is hating his child.” “He that holds back the use of the rod, is giving forth a spirit of hatred to the child.” That’s something I’d like to convince you of this evening. “But he that loveth him…” Now that word “loveth”, here’s the picture for the word”loveth”. Just like this: A couple minutes ago I walked out of the prayer room downstairs, and little Hannah saw Papa, and she took off running across the room down there, and I got down on my knees so that I could hug her, and she ran right up to me and I put my arms out, and we just had a good old hug down there in the basement. That’s what the word “loveth” means. Arms out like this, reaching out to the child, and loving them.

“He that spareth the rod, gives forth a spirit of hatred to the child. But he that chaseneth with the rod, gives forth a spirit of love to the child.” That’s what this verse is saying! And then the last word that I want to look at is the word, “betimes”. Are you ready for this children? “Betimes” means, over and over and over and over again. Some say it means over and over again. Some say it means early in life. I’ll take either one of those. “He who spareth the rod, gives forth a spirit of hatred to the child. But he that chaseneth the child, gives forth a spirit of love.” And God says you need to do it over and over and over again. That’s what this verse is saying!

Now I’d like you to think on this for a moment. Everyone of us know, maybe you know somebody like this that is married, but yet they’re divorced in heart for many years. Father lives in the home, mother lives in the home, and they know that they cannot separate, though they are at odds with each other and they live that way for many years. They’re married, yet they’re divorced in their heart. What a miserable way to be married, amen? To dwell together in the same house and yet be divorced in your heart. You are missing heaven on earth if you live that way. But this verse right here is speaking about just as shocking a relationship between parent and children.

The Bible says, a child that is without chastisement is a ! Or it’s a child who does not have a father! And if your children are without the proper chastisement, they are missing some of the sweetest experiences of their life! And by the way, so are you! If your natural heart tonight says, “But I just couldn’t spank my children.” You are missing some of the sweetest experiences of your life. You’re missing them. And a child that is not disciplined is missing the fullness of a love relationship between father, mother and child. Maybe you’ve heard this said before: “I was never close to my father.” How many of you have ever heard that before? “I was never close to my father.” I wonder. I’m sure there are many reasons for that, but I wonder if any of them would have to do with this right here. “I was never close to my father.” My children are so close to me, when we have a spanking, I mean, it just takes that heart and my heart and just goes like this (hearts meshed together). It’s one of the closest heart-knitting things you can do. “I was just never close to my father.” By the way, I was never close to my father. And my father never spanked me. Not one time. My mother did the spanking, and I was never close to my father.

Remember tonight, God’s ways are not our ways. God’s ways are very different than man’s ways. Here I am standing up here and telling you an awesome paradox, that doesn’t make any sense to the natural mind. Just like the Bible says, the way up is down, the Bible says, the way to a close relationship is to use a rod! How can that be? Well, God’s ways are not like man’s ways. They are not. If you want a close relationship with your children, use the rod! By the way, I plan to qualify that through the evening, because I realize that some of you in this room, your parents did use this rod, but they didn’t use it right. Many of you were spanked in anger; many of you were just plain beaten. Many of you were driven and chased out of the house with a stick, and I’m not talking about any of that. That is not Bible chastisement. But we’re going to take a look at Bible chastisement. And maybe tonight, maybe just tonight, your attitude towards the rod is wrong because of your past experiences. Oh, open up your heart, I just plead with you to open your heart, let God show you there is a better way.

Many times we over-react to our childhood experiences and our children suffer for it. Let’s go on then to Proverbs 19:18. Proverbs 19:18 reads like this: “Chasten thy son, while there is hope. And let not thy soul spare for his crying” Now in this verse we’d like to look at two things. First of all, the little phrase that says, “While there is hope”. That very phrase signifies to us that there will be a time that there will be no hope anymore! “Chasten thy son while there is hope…” Because there will come a day when it won’t work anymore! There will come a day, when it won’t have the same effect anymore! There will come a day when you will not be able to have an influence upon your child with the rod. So God is using this verse as a motivational verse to us. Spank your children while they are pliable! Spank them while they’re bendable! Spank them while they’re moldable! Because the day is going to come when you will not be able to mold them anymore! And it’s a motivational verse to us. There will come a day when you will not be able to mold your children with the rod anymore and you’ll have to then say, “God, I’ve done all I can do, now you take over.” And then God can spank them. And God will do a real good job of it. But the admonition to us this evening is, “You do it while there’s hope, while there’s opportunity, while they’re pliable, you do it.”

And then the last part of the verse; and God put this in there I believe because God knows what we’re made of, everyone of us – flesh. We’re made out of flesh and God knows that we have natural love for our children. And it’s not wrong to have natural love! So God puts this in there. “Let not thy soul spare for his crying.” We all know what that feeling is like, don’t we? If you’ve ever spanked your child, you know what goes on inside. “I don’t want to keep going. I hear my child crying, and I want to hold back.” And I believe God breathed this little part of the verse out there for everyone of us, to just kind of come along behind us, and shore us up, and say, “And by the way, don’t hold back because the child starts crying.” Children are pretty smart. They know if they let out a wail that sounds like they’re about to die, that you’ll let up before you’re suppose to. How many of you children know that, let me see your hands. What? None of you? Children know that. But parents – don’t do it. Don’t spare because the child cries. Just because the child starts to cry, does not mean the job is done. Sounds pretty mean, doesn’t it? But it’s not.

Let’s move on to Proverbs 20:30. “The blueness of a wound cleanseth away evil. So do stripes, the inward parts of the belly.” God’s method for clearing the conscience of your children, here it is. Here we see it right before us. I’d like to ask you this question. I think most of us that are in this room, know the sweet experience of responding at a revival meeting, and going to the altar and breaking our hearts before God and getting all the sin out and confessing it to God, and having our heart washed away by the blood of Jesus. And oh, the brokenness that’s there. And oh, the sweetness that is upon our heart after we’ve had a revival meeting like that. We all know the joy and the blessing the yieldednes, the obedience that it wrought in our lives. Well brothers and sisters, this is God’s method for producing the same thing in your children. You see, our children don’t understand all the things that we know. They don’t understand about the blood yet. They don’t understand about yielding their will yet. They don’t understand everything about God. They can’t hit the mourners’ bench and have an old-fashioned revival meeting in their life, they can’t do that! But this is God’s method of producing the same kind of spirit in them, that we get when we hit the mourners bench at a revival meeting. This is God’s method! Help them have a revival! Some of your children need a revival! This is how they get it! And you’re the one that God wants to use to help them to have a revival!

Do you know something? I can spend about five minutes with most children and tell you within five minutes whether or not they’re being spanked properly. I can do that. It’s very simple. A child that’s being spanked properly will have had it’s conscience cleared. And a child that has a clear conscience has a clear countenance. Many people will say, I heard it said many times of our own children. “Your children’s countenances are so bright!” And I thought, “Yes, they sure are” (holding the rod to explain why). I can tell whether a child is being disciplined properly! By their countenance. A child who is being disciplined properly has had their conscience clear. Their heart is broken. Their will is yielded. They’re obedient to their parents and their countenance is clear! There’s another way I can tell – a child that is being disciplined properly responds properly to other authorities. I can spot it just like that. It’s very simple. And you say, “Now wait a minute. How can you be so sure of that?” Well, you ladies – you ever walk out into somebody’s garden and spot, and know it just like that (snap of finger) what this person needs to do to take care of this plant or that plant? You ever do that before? You can walk into somebody’s garden on a Sunday afternoon and give them 1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8 things they could do in their garden if you see the thing out of order. How come? Because you know the principles of gardening!

You see, God wants us to learn the principles of training children! And once we learn them, if we become a student of training our children, we’ll learn the principles, they’ll be just as simple and just as easy as if you walked out in the garden and saw, “Well those tomato plants don’t look very good. This is what they need! You do this and you do this and you do that and they’ll be standing tall in a week.” We can do that in the garden and God wants us to learn the principles of training our children so that we can also spot a need in their lives very quickly.

GOD’S PRINCIPLES WORK! They work very well! I’ve often thought, as I’ve seen parents struggling with their children, I’ve often thought, “I wish I could just take that child home for about a week.” Because to me, it’s as simple as going out in that garden and finding the problems that are there. And I often think those thoughts, “Oh, I wish I could just take that child home for a week.”

Many years ago, I guess, twelve years ago now, when I was working on the bus route in Chicago, Illinois, I worked on the bus route and picked up the little ghetto children. There was one lady on my bus route, she had four children. She was not a good mother, she had no husband, she never did have a husband, but she had four children. She was a neglectful mother and her children were very wild. She had twin boys, four years old, and they were two little wild Indians. One Saturday when I was up there visiting on the bus route the mother came to the door in total frustration and she said, “Get them out of my life. Take them. If you can’t do something with them, I’m going to get rid of them. I can’t take them anymore.” That’s what she said. It was during the holidays at Bible school, and I knew I’d be home all week long so I told her I’d come back and pick them up when I get done visiting the rest of the children. And I pulled in there and I picked up those two little twin boys, four years old, and brought them home to my house. And for two days, I followed them everywhere they went around the house. Giving them guidance, giving them an admonition, and when I saw a willful breakout of disobedience, I just took them into the other room and I got out the rod and I used it on them. And I did it in a right way. And then we came back out into the living room and went about our day and I just kept following them around and after two days, those two little fellows had figured it all out in their mind. They knew where the lines were, they knew how they were supposed to behave, and they knew that I loved them. They knew, I was Mr. Denny to them. I’d been picking them up on the Sunday school bus for months and months and months before this happened. I was the closest thing to daddy to those two little boys. But after two days, things started falling right into place. And by the end of the week, those two little fellows would sit up at the supper table and eat with a spoon instead of with their hands. They would say please and thank you when they wanted something. They ate their food all gone when we sat them down at the table. And they were good little boys. And after a week I brought them back and gave them to the mother and went on my way and visited the children. And then a whole other week went by and I came by and knocked at the door there, and mother came to the door there and said, “What did you do to my two boys? I can’t believe it! They’re so good! Their nice little boys, what did you do to them?” I mean, she’d been beating them since they were four years old! Slapping them in the face, chasing them out of the house, beating on them and yelling at them and all those things, but she didn’t get any of that. But one week of loving discipline with the rod and those two little boys were good little boys. I could have adopted them and made them my own, they would have been good boys. And others have given me testimonies just like that of similar experiences of problem children that they brought into their home and they just simply applied the good old garden rules of raising children, and they got the good old garden results! It works!

Your children are not different then everybody else’s children. You don’t have a special problem. No you don’t! Now I recognize there may be a very few that do have a special problem. In these years since I’ve been preaching on the home, a lot of questions have come my way, and there’ve been a few of them that I just couldn’t answer. But for the most part, it’s just simply obeying the simple garden rules of raising children.

Now I want to explain to you this evening how we spank our children. It takes between 15-20 minutes to spank the children. And you may say on that one, “15 minutes! I don’t have time! Whose got 15 minutes?” Well, if you do it right when you’ll do it, you may not have to do it as much! I agree! If you have to do it 10 times a day, 15 minutes times 10 is a long time! But if you’ll do it right, when you do it, and do a thorough job and do it right, you won’t have to do it so many times. We never spank the children in anger. NEVER, NEVER NEVER! And if you have a problem with anger, and spanking your children, I suggest you send them to a room and wait for thirty minutes until you’re completely calmed down. You will absolutely make the whole thing worse than what it was before if you walk into that room in a spirit of anger, ready to reel out punishment on that child. If you do it in a spirit of anger, I believe that you’re missing the whole concept of chastisement. Chastisement is not punishment! It’s correction for future conduct! There’s a big difference. If it’s punishment, then here you go into the room; fire in your eyes, paddle in your hand and foam coming out your mouth, and “You’re going to get it now young man!” If you do it that way, then you are missing the whole concept of chastisement. Chastisement is for future! It’s for correcting future conduct! Not punishment for past deeds. There’s a big difference.

By the way, your children are sinners. And they are going to fail. Plan on it! Here’s how I look at it: Every time my children fail, transgress my law; I just look at it as another opportunity to correct their future conduct! I expect them to fail. They’re going to fail! That’s how they’re going to learn! By their failures, by their transgressions, by their disobediences to our laws, are they going to learn godly character. Number one, you need to expect that they’re going to fail. I think many times we get angry at our children because they failed, and they’re not supposed to fail! They’re my children! That’s wrong! That’s motivated by pride in your own heart! It’s pride! “My children aren’t supposed to do that! And if they did something wrong, then they’re going to get it for it!” It’s all wrong! The motivation is wrong! The heart attitude is wrong! Completely wrong. They’re going to fail – plan on it! Plan on it so well that you know what you’re going to do, the next time they do! And look forward to it! In fact, I’ve done this many times. I’ve seen a child and known, “you know, this child is just off.” You know how it is. They’re off, they haven’t done anything yet that warrants a spanking, but you know they’re off. You know that there’s something not right in the heart and you know that it’s not long that they’re going to do something wrong. Well, when I see a child like that, I just sit back and wait. “Okay. It won’t be long and I’m going to have an opportunity to take care of this child.” That’s not mean! That’s being loving!

And let me say this, before I go through this. Spank your children, the way that God spanks you. If we could just grab a hold of that, and meditate upon it, you wouldn’t need anybody to teach you how to spank your children. Spank them the way that God spanks you! How does He spank you? Does he grab you by the scruff of the neck? And holler at you? And tell you how wrong you were? Is that how God spanks you? Then don’t spank your children that way! We know how God spanks us. He very lovingly and calmly reveals to us a need in our life and picks us up in the comforting hands of His presence and spanks us. And when He’s done, He very lovingly puts us back in His arms again and tells us how much He loves us, “You are my child. I want you to do right. I want you to go the right way. I have eternity in mind. I love you my son.” And He sends us on our way. If you could just get that picture in your mind, and then turn around, and then reproduce the same thing when it’s time to spank your children, you’ve got it. That’s it!

So, here’s how we spank our children. When the child transgresses one of our laws, we very calmly inform them that they have transgressed our laws and they’re going to get a spanking. We do not raise our voice. Raising your voice doesn’t do a thing for you. In fact most parents raise their voice because they’re not using the rod. And they think that they’ll get authority out of it. You don’t get any authority by raising your voice. You know how it is – you give the correction. Then the second time you see it, you raise your voice a little bit more and you give the correction again, hoping that that will take care of it. Then the third time you see the same thing happening again, you raise your voice just a little bit higher, then finally by the fourth time, when you should have spanked them on the second time, you say, “THAT’S IT! YOU GO TO YOUR ROOM!” And the whole spirit of that thing is frustration, because you neglected what you should have done, two corrections before!

Oh how well you can establish your authority if after you correct one time you back that thing up with a calm informing of the child, “You have done wrong. I’ve corrected you once. Go to your room, you’re going to have a spanking.” That’s what we do; send them to the room, they go there, sit down and wait. We go to the wall, and get the rod off of the wall, and go and pick up the Bible on the way, and we go to the room. With these two. When you walk into the room, the child is already crying, because they don’t like spankings. And I know you children don’t like spankings – they hurt! And there is the child crying. And we just sit down together, and we just cry a little bit together. The child is crying, Papa’s crying, mama’s crying. And what I’ll usually do is I’ll just kind of put my arms out like this, and the child will come and sit on my lap, and I hold them. I’ve heard people say before, “Don’t you give your children any comfort when their supposed to get punished.” That’s so wrong! It’s so punish oriented. It’s so judgment oriented. I think they probably see God that way too. Here’s God up in heaven waiting for you to do something wrong. How many of you have felt that way about God before? He’s up in heaven just waiting for you to do something wrong, and when you get up; He’s going to let you have it. Well if you feel that way, that’s probably how you deal with your children. But God is not up in heaven with a stick waiting for you to do something wrong, and then He’s going to let you have it.

So I just put my arms out and of course that child you know, they’re afraid they’re going to get a spanking, they know it’s going to hurt, they’re trembling already, and I just put my arms out and they’ll very gladly jump up in your lap. And I just hold them for a couple minutes and love them and tell them “I love them, and tell them I’m sorry I have to give you a spanking but you know you’ve got to have a spanking. Papa loves you and I’m not mad”, I’ll assure them “I’m not mad at you.” So we’ll do that for a couple minutes. Then it’s a time of instruction. A time of instruction for two things. Number 1: We take the opportunity to instruct the child very clearly so that the child knows exactly why they’re going to get a spanking. And sometimes that takes longer than others. In fact, and this will tickle all of you, it takes a little longer when they get a little bit older, because they get a little bit wiser and they think that they can talk their way out of it. So sometimes it takes a little bit longer to clearly show that child why they’re in there, how they transgressed, why they’re going to get the spanking. But we clearly instruct their little heart, as to why they’re in there. Then we also take the opportunity to just get the Bible in the hand and say, “Now you know what the Bible says we’re supposed to do? The Bible says we’re supposed to spank you.” Maybe I’ll read them a verse, or maybe I’ll quote them a verse out of the Bible. See – the two go together just like this… (The Bible, and the rod of correction). I’m not some mean man sitting there in the room, ready to spank my child. I’m a godly father who believes the Bible and I have all of heaven on my side when I go in there to spank my child.

So we use it as a time of instruction, for what they’ve done wrong, and also, the principle of spanking. That’s how you get your children to thank you afterwards, when you enlighten their heart and they understand the blessing of getting a spanking. Hannah is almost 3 and she doesn’t thank me yet for her spankings, she’s not quite sure about that. She can’t quite figure that out when Samuel will come back and say, “thank you Papa, for giving me a spanking”. She hasn’t come to that place yet.

Okay. After we have a time of instruction, then it’s time for the spanking. And we’ll have the child lay over the bed, or lay over the chair; depending on what room they’re in. And the child must lay still and take the spanking. We don’t let the children jump all over the room. If you’re chasing your children all over the room to give them a spanking, may the Lord deliver you from that this week. That is out of order. That child is not getting anything out of that spanking if they’re running around the room and you’re chasing them. Have you ever had to do that? And you’re chasing them around and they get hit on the leg, and sometimes on the bottom and sometimes they get hit on their hands, and oh, all kinds of terrible things go wrong when you try to spank them that way. No! They must lay still and get their spanking. And they do! And if they don’t, they just get another one on top of the other one, and it doesn’t take very long for the children to all of a sudden develop a determination to hold still when they get their spanking. Because nobody wants another one! Nobody! So we make them hold still. So we’ve got them laying over the bed, and we’ve reminded them that they must hold still while they get their spanking, and then it’s time to give them a spanking and when it’s time to give them a spanking, they get one. They get a thorough spanking. Someone said, “Do you tell your children how many swats their going to get?” You don’t spank them by swats, you spank them until you sense that their will has broken! When you sense their will has broken up. Do you know what happens if you say, “Okay, you’re going to get 10…” Then they say, “Okay, I’m holding on.” You say, “I’m going to spank you until I feel like you’ve had enough, and your heart is broken and yielded. That’s going to cause them to say, “Okay, I’m going to yield my heart. I’m going to give into this spanking. I’m going to let it happen. I’m going to let it do it’s work in me, so that it will get done sooner.” See the difference? It’s a different mentality there, isn’t there? So when we give them a spanking, we give them one, and it hurts. And some of you parents, I would just encourage you, maybe you spank through pampers and things like that, your children – That isn’t doing anything. That’s not doing anything. Now if you’ve got a little baby, I can see that. But if you’ve got a one year old, one and a half, two years old, that’s just bouncing off the pamper, that’s not doing them any good at all. It’s supposed to hurt! It’s supposed to be a shock to their system! It’s supposed to drive the evil right out of their heart! That’s what it said back there in that verse we just read. It’s supposed to hurt!

Then when we get done, I fall on my knees next to the child. And we cry together some more. And I pray and then the child prays. Then I pray, “Oh God, I pray for my son, I pray oh God, that you’ll help him to know I love him very much. Oh God, I pray that you’ll help him to know that I’m very proud of him, that he makes me so happy, almost all of the time, but he just needed a spanking…” And I claim the promise, right there while we’re on our knees together, “Lord you said to spank them, I’m believing in you that they will not despise me, because I’ve spanked them, in Jesus name. Amen.” We finish our prayer, then we get up and I usually hold them on my knee again. Give them a hug, tell them I love them, get a Kleenex, help them to wipe their eyes, blow their nose, and then we have a little instruction again. And we just go over it again. “Now do you realize why we were in here? Do you realize what you did wrong? Do you realize why papa had to give you this spanking?” Then sometimes we have a little song. A lot of times we sing, “Everything’s alright, in my Father’s house.” And they’re just a crying away while we sing the song. Then a little later on, the child usually comes back and says, “Papa, thank you. Thank you for spanking me.” And we’re friends all the rest of the day. Good buddies, good friends. Close companions. I’ve never seen a spanking done right, drive my child away. I’ve heard parents say that, “when I finish spanking my child, they just go in the corner of the room and they look at me like this and they don’t want to be around me.” I’ve never seen that one time. I’ve always had my children like this (one in heart) after we’ve done a spanking the right way. They want to be close to me. They love me! They know that I love them!

Just a couple weeks ago, Hannah had her lesson on hitting. We don’t hit in our house. I mean, it’s the law of the Medes and the Persians. We do not hit in our house. You know how all little children are? They all will do it. Walk up and (slap). And maybe you snickered when they did it the first time, and snickered when they did it the second time, but after they started doing it a little, it wasn’t very funny anymore. Well at our house, the first time we see it, we go after it. And Hannah, lifted up her hand about two weeks ago and hit Samuel. Because he was doing something she didn’t like. She’s a sinner! She’s just lifted her hand up and hit him! And she was given a correction about it. And then two days later, she did it again. That was it. It’s time to have the lesson on hitting for Hannah. And we just took her into the study there, and we had a nice, we just went through all these things that I just talked about, had a nice little talk with her, we cried, I gave her a spanking; oh she begged me to stop spanking and I just kept right on spanking until I felt she was completely broken. And she is completely cured of hitting. I don’t think we’ll see it again. Honestly, I don’t think we’ll see it again. You know what she says about three or four times a day now? She’ll come up to papa or momma and say, “Papa, Samuel did something that I didn’t like, and I didn’t hit him.” That’s what she’ll say, three or four times a day! “I don’t hit Samuel. We don’t hit with our hands.” Big ol’ wide eyes you know… That lesson is done! Isn’t that a wonderful lesson?

Turn to Proverbs 22 in verse 15. “Foolishness is bound in the heart of a child, but the rod of correction shall drive it far from him.” A couple words we want to look at here: The first one is “foolishness”. How many of you have seen foolishness in your children, let me see your hands. Oh, good, we’re well enlightened to that word right there. “Foolishness is bound in the heart of a child….” That word foolishness – here’s the word picture of that word foolishness: It’s an uncontrolled spiral. The best way to describe it to me, the way that I found to describe it is an uncontrolled spirit. You know these little springs that they have…you fold them up and put them in a box, and then you give it to somebody for a joke, and when they open up the box the spring goes out in every direction? That’s a good illustration of what foolishness is all about - just an uncontrolled spirit – doing this and doing that and going here and going there and doing this and saying that. Just out of control. Well the Bible says that that uncontrolled spirit, is bound in the heart of a child.

And the next word we want to look at is the word, “bound”. And the best way to describe that is if we just get somebody and stand them up here tonight and get a rope and go around them, and around them and around them and around them, and then get two men to hold on to each side of that rope and tell him, “Go ahead and get away…” I say, “I can’t get away!” Why not? “I’m bound!” Bound, like Samson was bound, after he had his hair cut off. He couldn’t get away. They bound him, and they poked out his eyes, because he was bound. Well the Bible says that foolishness is bound in the heart of your children! The desire to do wrong is bound in the heart of your children. You can yell at it, and it won’t go away. You can stand it in the corner, and foolishness will not leave. You can talk nice to it, and foolishness will not leave. You can give foolishness reward! And it will not leave your child. You can slap foolishness on the hand, and it will not leave your child. You can take foolishness and shake him real good, and give him a good ol’ talking to! And foolishness will not leave. Foolishness is bound in your child! And the Bible gives us a clear way to get rid of it. And look at the words that God says! “…The rod of correction shall drive it FAR from him!” Way away from him! The rod of correction is God’s ordained way to drive foolishness out of your children. And we all know the experience! We all know what it’s like. We all know that one time or that two times, or we know those times when we spank that child, and we spank them right, and they had a good spanking, and what were they like when you got done? Peaceful, content, they shared their toys, they were kind, they spoke nice to momma…they were just a good little boy or a good little girl the rest of the day! Why? Because you drove that foolishness far away from them.

I just plead with you tonight. Do your children a favor, and drive that foolishness out of their hearts. It’s not right for you to leave it there. God never intended for your children to live with all those things on them! See this is what happens: A child does something wrong, that they know is wrong, and their conscience gets guilty. But nobody saw them do it. So then, with that guilty conscience, they do something else wrong, and the conscience gets more guilty, and more guilty, and more guilty. It’s not right to leave them like that. You know, to me, it’s a terrible injustice. It’s a terrible unloving thing, to let your child go around for days needing a spanking. Their frustrated and they’re discontent, and they can’t seem to be happy with anything, and you know it…you know how it is. You’ve got children, you know how they are! It’s not right to do that. That’s why I say, when I sense something is just not quite right with the child, I’ll just sit back and wait. It won’t be long, and I’ll have a reason to take care of the need that is down inside the heart. And see again, I’m not just spanking for the thing they did wrong, I see the need down inside that heart! This child has got that foolishness bound in there again, and I need to drive it out, and I’m going to watch for a good excuse to give them a good spanking. And it won’t take long when they’re that way. When that old conscience of theirs is all guilty and they’re discontent and they’re frustrated and they’re doing this and doing that. They seem to be out of order in everything…it doesn’t’ take long. They’re going to do something that’s worthy of a spanking, and then you can just take them into that room, and set them at rest! Let them have a good day! Let them have a happy day! God meant for the children to be happy! Clear, bright, cheerful, content. Here’s how you do it - (example of the rod).

Now, I want to readily agree, there are other forms of discipline besides this rod. And we use them. I mentioned some here. Standing in the corner – we use that some at our house. Just as a gentle reproof and a warning, “Correct your ways here and you’ll be alright. Don’t – and you’re going to find yourself with worse discipline.” You can stand them in the corner. You can encourage them when they’re doing right! You can encourage them to do right, when they’re doing right. Sometimes we give rewards to the children if they’ve done a good task. Sometimes if it’s a smaller child we will spank the hand. With a real little child you can break their will by spanking their hand, just one time. One or two swats on the hand, good and smartly, and that child will just break and cry – everything’s taken care of.

So there are other forms of discipline. But when you have a child, and you can see that that foolishness is bound up in there, and that old conscience needs to be clear, this is the only way that I know that you can do it. And it’s not right to put it off. It’s not right. It’s unloving. You think about it. If all through your life, while your children are growing up, you hold back the rod; all you’re saying silently is, “I don’t love you, I don’t love you, I don’t love you, I don’t love you, I don’t love you.” That is what the verse is saying. If you spare the rod you hate your child. You’re hating them! But you think you love them. But you’re hating them.

The old saying goes, “Spare the rod and spoil the child”. Do you know what that word “spoil” means? It means to make them rotten. Make them, ineffective. Make them so they’re no use. Make them so they are like garbage and have no value. Spare the rod, go ahead; and spoil the child. That’s what it means!

All right, let’s move on to Proverbs 23, just over the page a little. Proverbs 23:13-14: “Withhold not correction from the child.” Isn’t that interesting? God just keeps saying it again and again and again. He’s convincing us. He’s reaffirming His Word to us. “Withhold not correction from the child. For if thou beatest him with the rod, he shall not die.” Now that’s an interesting verse! That God breathed out by His Spirit. “If thou beatest him with the rod, he won’t die…” He may sound like he’s going to die, the way he hollers! But he will not die, if you spank them good and smart, they won’t die! But look at the next verse, “Thou shalt beat him with the rod, and shalt deliver his soul from hell.” Now that is a very sobering verse to me. What that tells me is this: You hold back too much on this rod; you spare this rod too much; you have your little emotional, natural love too much, and they’ll go to hell over it. And that’s no little thing. “Oh my poor little child, I could just never spank him.” Yeah – well they’ll probably go to hell too. It makes your natural, emotional love look pretty weak, doesn’t it, in light of that?

You say now, “How can that be? A child that is not spanked will go to hell?” Well, let me ask you this: What is man’s part in salvation? Is it not the yielding of his will to the God of Heaven? That’s man’s part in salvation! That is the core of salvation on the part of a man, of a human being – a man or a woman! No yielding your heart to God, No salvation! No continual yielding your heart to God, No continual walking in the grace of salvation! And the use of the rod breaks the will and brings it into subjection. And a child who has had their will broken, and broken and broken, and broken; someday when God says, “My son, daughter, follow Me!” They’ll say, “Yes Lord, I will follow you!” But a child who has not had their will broken, has a rebellious heart! And a rebellious will! And when God says, “My child follow me! Give me everything! Yield it all up to me!” They’ll say, “I’m not going to do that. I’m going to do what I want to do…” And go to hell over it. And some of us in this room, we know, don’t we? I mean, I know! I didn’t get spanked very much when I was a child! Christianity goes hard for me sometimes because of it! I want to do what I want to do! Yet I have to deal with those things. Do your child a favor. Spank them. Break their will.

Susanna Wesley said this: Susanna Wesley was the mother of John and Charles Wesley. John Wesley was the founder of the Methodist Church. Charles Wesley was a songwriter. We sing his songs all the time here. Susanna Wesley had I think 19 children. Thirteen or fourteen of them lived. She said this: “I set out at an early age to conquer the will of each child. Then I continue to bring it under subjection until it is totally yielded to Christ.” What a beautiful picture! Isn’t that a beautiful picture? I set out from an early age to totally conquer the will of my child. Once I have it conquered, I keep it conquered! And I keep it that way until I see that it has been totally yielded to Christ. Then you don’t have to worry about it anymore!

I would just like to encourage you to set out to totally conquer the will of your child. When Samuel was growing up, we don’t have to say it anymore, but when he was a small boy, about 4 -4 ½ years old, we often said, “Samuel, until Samuel’s will becomes Papa’s will, you are going to be an unhappy boy.” Set out to conquer the will of your children. You’re supposed to be the boss. You’re supposed to be an authority. They’re supposed to be under authority. They’re the ones that are supposed to obey. They’re the ones that are supposed to sit up and listen. They are the ones!

It grieves my heart so many times when you go to a grocery store and see a 3-year-old child ruling a father or a mother. Have you ever seen that? That happens sometimes among God’s people too. What a sad thing that a 3 year old would rule a father or a mother. I’ve seen them pitch a fit, and the mother will go over and say, “What’s the matter Johnny? What’s the matter?” “I want a candy bar!” “Here Johnny, have your candy bar.” Ohhhh. I mean, I am exactly opposite of that. If a child fusses for a candy bar, they’ll never get one. If I see the child’s will going after something, I’ll go right against their will. I’ll do it every time. Set out from an early age to conquer the will of the child.

By age one, we begin clear training of the will at our house. We have lessons on “coming” at our house. We’ll teach the child to “come”. As soon as they can understand the word “come”, as soon as those little legs can go across the floor, we start having lessons on “coming”. The child is across the other side of the room – “Hannah, come to Papa!” She’ll come a runnin’, and then just give her a blessing, “Oh, what a good girl you are! Go on, go back to the other room!” And I’ll tell her, “We’re having lessons on coming. Go in the other room” and then she’ll go in the other room. And she’ll wait in there, and I’ll call her again, “Hannah! Come to Papa!” And here she comes running in the other room. “Oh, good girl! Good girl!” Pick her up and give her a hug, and send her back in the other room ‘til I clearly know that this girl knows what it means to “come” when Papa says, “come”. Then I make it a little bit harder. And some people think I’m mean for this, but it doesn’t matter to me. Then I’ll wait ‘til she’s busy playing with her favorite toy, and I’ll see, “Ah, she’s got her favorite toy. I’ll go in the other room on purpose.” “Hannah! Come to Papa!” Where’s Hannah? Why she’s playing with her favorite toy. She don’t want to come now, this toy’s more exciting than running to papa. And then I go and get her. And I don’t spank her right away. We make sure she knows exactly what is required of her. But I’ll bring her in the other room and say, “Hannah, Papa called you and you didn’t come! Why didn’t you come? Even if you’re playing with your toy, when Papa says “come” you come!” And I get that clear in her mind, and we wait another time. And finally, it happens, it always happens, the toys are there, she’s so involved in them, she’s enjoying them; I’ll go in the other room. And I mean, I know what’s going to happen, and I’ve already got the stick in my mind, and I already know what I’m going to do when she fails! “Hannah! Come to Papa!” “I’m not coming to Papa, I’m playing with my toys!” “Okay Hannah, let’s go. You disobeyed Papa. I told you to come; you didn’t come. Go to your room.” By the way, we don’t use this on her. We have a good hard ruler. Just a regular ruler that we use on Hannah.

But we start training sessions. It’s almost like dog training isn’t it? I mean if you’re going to train a dog, you do it on purpose, don’t you? You know you do! You go out there and you say, “We’re going to have a half an hour of training for this dog. Sit! Stand! Let’s Go! Sit down! Fetch! Good Boy!” All that! You do that for about a half an hour and put him back in the cage again. Well that may seem a little crude to some of us here this evening, but that is the mentality that we ought to have about our children. Not that you take them out of the cage…but that you take special care and plan out how we’re going to train this child. Oh, I just get delighted! I look over at the child, and maybe they found a food that they don’t like and I just think, “Well, here we go! Now it’s time to learn our lesson that we all learn about eating our food all gone.” See, I’m not mad at them. I’m not mad at them! I’m waiting for them so that I can take an opportunity to train that will! So that someday God will get it! I’m after their will! Not just spanking them for punishment, I’m after their will! So they can give it to God someday! And I do it on purpose.

With a littler one, lessons on laying your head down, when it’s time to go to sleep at night. Lay them down in that crib, and work with them. “Lay your headdie down.” And push their head down. “Lay your headdie down.” Push their head down. So that they learn those words, what they mean, what is expected of them, and then finally, and it’s Esther now, not Hannah. Hannah lays her headdie down. But Esther, Esther’s 8 months old. “Esther, lay your headdie down.” You know, and they’ll look up at you like that…put their head down. And finally if they don’t lay their head down, you give them a good swat on the back of the leg, with two fingers, just like this (example shown). “You lay your headdie down.” And then they’ll start crying, and down will go the head. And they learn!

You see it’s easy, if you do it while they’re 1,2,3,4 – it’s simple! They’re simple little lessons. Why wait until they’re ten years old and then the lessons are hard and you don’t know what to do, and it gets more difficult. It’s so easy to teach them great big giant lessons on obedience, while they’re learning to eat their green beans. Or while they’re learning to come to Papa. Or while they’re learning to share their toys. Or while they’re learning not to hit when somebody goes against their grain. It’s so easy. And you don’t just teach them not to hit, you train their will and bring it under subjection!

Esther, she just started crawling about, oh just after I got back from Africa, maybe it’s two months now, or maybe not quite two months, she’s learned how to crawl, and at our house, we don’t put everything away when the child learns how to crawl. That’s when we start teaching them what “no-no” means. “No-no” (slaps of a hand a few times), “no-no”. And I don’t start with a real hard hit on the hand. But just training that mind, “no-no” and pull her hand away. “No-no, and pull her hand away; no-no, and pull her hand away. I mean she’s learning it! I see her doing it. She’ll go over, she likes all the books on the shelf in the family room where we have devotion, and she’ll go crawling over there you know, and she’s got her eyes on those books and she’ll reach up like this and go like this (looking behind her). She knows! She knows she’s not supposed to put her hand on that book! Once you get them to that place where they know they’re not supposed to put their hand on that book, then when they put their hand on the book (slaps of the hand and rebuked) “No-no, Esther, no-no!” And she’ll cry, big old crocodile tears and she’ll just shake and shudder and she’ll learn a lesson! She won’t forget it either!

Another lesson on obedience, that I’ve done with the last two I think, maybe three. I can’t remember with Samuel, but with the last two, when I’m working, I wear bib overalls. And bib overalls, they have a place right here where the pen fits, of course, they have a pocket here and I put my checkbook in it. And the pen is okay, but the checkbook is a no-no. And honestly, it’s such a simple little thing, but it works! And I trained Hannah. She knows she can play with the pen, but she can’t play with the checkbook. And the way the whole thing started was, you know how the babies are, everything they get in their hands, what do they do with it? Well they have to see what it’s like, and they put it in their mouth! And I just decided, “She’s not going to take my checkbook and stick it in her mouth, and I’m not going to put my checkbook in my back pocket; she will learn that this she can play with, and it goes right into the mouth, but this checkbook you cannot touch it.” And to this day, Hannah’s almost three, if I sit her on my lap and I’ve got my bib overalls on, and the pen is here, and the checkbook is here, she’ll say, “That’s a no-no Papa, I’m not supposed to touch that.” She knows! And Esther is learning the same thing right now. I’ll sit her down, and she’ll reach for both, or maybe she’ll reach for the checkbook. And I’ll push her hand away, “No-no, no-no!” And I’ll take the pen out and say, “Here you can play with this!” And she puts it right in her mouth like usual, and I’ve got to wipe it off when she gets done. But, she is leaning! “This you can do, this you can’t do!” See how simple that is!

We’re talking about bringing the will of the child into subjection. See? Oh, would to God, we would just get a vision of becoming students of training our children! That’s all! You know there are hundreds and hundreds of illustrations like this and you can think of your own! If we just become students of training our children! We’d do them such favors. We’d just give them a head start on life by ten years. If we start when they’re young and we just start working through these kinds of things with them.

Turn to Proverbs 29, and we’re going to close here. I have some more, but I’m going to save it for another night. We’ll look at these verses in closing. Motivational verses for us.

Proverbs 29:15, “The rod and reproof give wisdom.” Can we see that? Can we see after we’ve looked at all these verses and we’ve looked at the illustration that the rod and reproof really do give wisdom! “But a child left to himself, bringeth his mother to shame.” That ought to be a motivational verse for us. And look at this. While I was studying this afternoon, I saw some verses in a new way. Let’s just read the context here. The next verse, “When the wicked are multiplied…” That’s the children that are left to themselves, “transgression increases. But the righteous shall see their fall.” Now look at the next verse: “Correct thy son, and he shall give thee rest! Yeah, he shall give delight unto thy soul.” Now look at the next verse: “Where there is no vision, the people perish. But he that keepeth the law, happy is he.” “But he that keepeth the law, happy is he!” “Where there is no vision, the people perish.” And that word perish, I have written down here in my Bible, they’re wild and scattered. Can you see the context there? God is pleading with us here! Chasten your children! The rod of correction and reproof will give wisdom to your children! It’ll give righteousness to your children! Your children will be righteous! The nation will be righteous! The people will be righteous! If you’ll chasten your children, they’ll be filled with wisdom, they’ll be obedient, they’ll be righteous, and they’ll go the right way! But if you leave them to themselves, they’ll bring you to shame, and wickedness will reign in the country. So chasten your children! And it will give you rest!

I’ve been in some homes, that were absolutely the opposite of rest. Listen, children are the greatest joy! One of the greatest joys this side of heaven, but some people are so frustrated with children, they don’t want anymore than one or two. And the way they raise them and the way they behave, I don’t blame them for not wanting anymore! But if we’ll just do what God says, they are the greatest blessing to have around! They’re such a joy! You fathers, if you’ll do your job, you’ll be a king at your house! And every father ought to be a king in his own house. I mean honored! I mean revered, respected! Your children will rise up and kiss the hand that you spanked them with, if you’ll just follow these clear, biblical laws. If you’ll just follow them, God will bless you, and you’ll have rest in your home! And they’ll bring delight to your soul. And they do! And they will! Can we get a vision of it tonight? Here’s the prayer that I wish that you’d pray to God. That you’d just pray, “God, make me a student of
https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/articles/index.php?view=article&aid=2059

Please do not in any way imagine that Amrkelly could be any kind of authority on the subject, nor have much of an ability to even reason on the subject. Keep in mind the confessions that he has already made for the whole world to read on this thread:

I don't have a skewed view of a father's love or for that matter a mothers love, I have no view to it at all. My father was absent and my mother was mentally ill. Yet by grace I do have a sound comprehension of the Father in heaven and a security in Him which has proved sufficient for me through all the ups and downs of life. In short brother my life is a complete contradiction of reason. That's the gospel brother it called the grace and love of God. As for everything else they are just rods in His hands.

If it is indeed true that he has come to "a security in Him which has proved sufficient for me through all the ups and downs of life", THANK THE LORD! We can only hope that Amrkelly will find the path of life through Jesus who is the Way the Truth and the Life.

However, he claims to "have a sound comprehension of the Father in heaven" and apparently he thinks that he understands what the Father in heaven wants fathers on earth to do in regard to rearing their children, but as has been repeatedly demonstrated on this thread he is rejecting the clear instruction from the Father's word.

Amrkelly is a man to be pitied. As has been noted already on this thread, he has been extremely verbally (textually) abusive in his effort to redefine God's instructions as child abuse.

He was reared without a father and with a mentally ill mother. Apparently, by his own confession, these were some of the things that he endured under her tyranny:

Some of us actually know what parental violence really means. Not the simplicity of having our bottoms smacked but having boiling liquids poured over our bodies, having our feet beaten with wooden rods, having our limbs twisted in rage and in finality having to endure all of this only to be compelled to agree with that which was false in the enquiry of violence.

Amrkelly may post again and again on this thread, but as has been noted, he is hard to follow. His own soundness of mind is brought into question by his emotionally charged ranting which is obviously affected by his abused childhood with no dad, and a mentally ill mom.

We need to pray for Amrkelly. He is obviously not healed internally from the wounds of his childhood. Those wounds came from an absent father, and an abusive, mentally ill mother who knew little or nothing about our Father's love. Instead of healing, he has taken up a venomous hateful battle toward loving Christian parents who believe what God says about the use of a little physical pain in the loving instruction of their children.

May God heal Amrkelly down to the bottom of his heart and soul. May God baptize him in forgiveness and love that will make him gentle toward all people. If his parents are still alive, may they come to know salvation through Jesus.

Mary Jane, my instinct is to say "you poor thing!"

Your testimony reaffirms the validity of God's Word - man cannot improve upon it, much as he tries.

Thanks for sharing, MJ.

Sandra

amrkelly wrote ////Brother I know when someone is seeking to manipulate me.////

My post addressed to you was not out of manipulation.

I posted it out of a desire to cut out any manipulation and malice that would have, and had ever so slightly began to poision my post, as tension was building up.

If that post had been out of manupulation I would not have been able to sleep last night.
I slept fine.

It was out of a desire to resolve the tension that was building, not because of your position but because of the slanderous, threatening and offensive statements that you have made and continue to make.

I would have prefered to have emailed you privetly but with the threats that you have made, (which is in a confusion of millinial and present day actions, and with no clear way of determing which is which.)
out of those threats you can understand why that was not an option!

My post was clear.
and rather than admitt any wrong on your own behalf, you have pressed in deeper.

amrkelly wrote and I quote ///: First of all you didn't write the article. Secondly the man who did is one of those COC fellows who wears a USA flag for a tie and preaches God Bless America.///

I did not write the artical but that does not excuse the slander and rudeness of your comments.

It does not matter If the man who wrote the artical whear's an american flag and preaches God bless America, and is a follower of Campbell, That does in no way council out the truths contained within the artical nor does this give you justification to post in a rude and disrespectful and threating way as you did and continue to do.

The fact is your attempt of justifying your actions by trying to find what you deem as fault in the author of the artical is very revealling.

amrkelly wrote and I quote///No brother I won't be manipulated by any man. It isn't necessary nor will it serve any good purpose.///

And neither will I! as threats or warnings have and continue to be made by you.

Did My post addressed to you consist of much more than coping and pasting some of the rude and threating comments made by you? and simply asking you to consider how you would feel to have been on the recieving end of them ?
No need to justify yourself by slandering the author of the artical! that is a useless rabbit trail but it does reveal much.

I see only two correct options when confronted with such, the
1.) one is that I and others have misunderstood your seeming rude,slanderous,threatning and manupulating comments ? Of which clarification is welcome.

2.)repent

you choose neither, you instead choose to cover yourself by justifing them on the bases of the author of the artical being an american flag wearing COC, which is an absoulute redundancy that caries no weight in underming the artical or justifying your actions.

Lordoitagain, I am appalled by much of amrkellys comments on this thread but he is not WeirdLarry.

I have had discussions whith him, probably more than anyone else.

he is real and sincere, just very zealous and compassionate about many subjects such as I am, which often times leads to over reactions.

by amrkelly:
The words here are written to fully grown men and women and it speaks about the discipline and the love of God regarding legitimacy. Next time an angel of God descends into your church with a wooden rod and beats you into submission, just let me know right!

God bless,
Lisa

///They seem to have a vested interest in beating and bruising toddlers and children.///

why must we speak evil like this about believers in and of the Lord Jesus Christ whom love their children more than their own life ?

Hi amrkelly,
I am in disagreement with this last post of yours, and I will go into some detail as of why, if I have the time.

But I want to say I find it readable and noncontentious.

amrkelly wrote /// Understanding what is really intended in the fullest sense by such scriptures as Proverbs 23:13-14 is that it is difficult to resist the conclusion that a literal rod is intended. Unfortunately there is no way to resolve this. For me personally it has to come down to ones own conscience and being led of the Holy Spirit. ///

The same reason that you claim to come to the conclusion as you do, is the same reason I and a multitude of other bornagain Christians have come to the conclusion as we do on this topic.

So we should be able to agree to respect each others opinions on the subject, you raise your children the way that you feel convicted to, and we will raise our children the way that we feel convicted to. and as long as both are from a loving, careing non emotionaly motivated position than that should settle it.
but it does not. because those whom are opposed to proper usage of biblical chastisement are not content allowing others to raise their children as they feel led to. They are driven to fight tooth and nail to impose their position on us.
They always take the offending position.
It is those whom deffend the use of biblical chastisement, whom are always having to defend their position.
See it does not concern me if lysa or amrkelly withhold biblical chastisement from their children, that is their right, but that is not the case the other way around.

Never do we have to fear legislation forcing people to spank their children, but we continually must be concerned about legislation being passed that forces us to disobey our understanding of correct Biblical parenting.

I had planned to answer much more, but I am exhusted maybe some other time.

Andrew,
I cannot understand,how a person of your studying...reading,..to gain knowledge...(I can tell that by your writings) cannot understand this ,...one of the most plain-spoken subjects / truths of the Word.And to throw His
WAY / TRUTH / COUNSEL / WORDS to the ground,and KEEP your
words,...Do you know the cost in that ?...Elevating your word above
His Word / Counsel ?

2:Tim.3:16 ,.."ALL scripture is given by inspiration of God,and is profitable
for doctrine,for reproof,for correction,for instruction in righteousness,.."...

I ask you again,' Have you really considered the cost to ANYONE who
decides to throw out some of the Words in the Bible ?'
Well ! ..I know this is hard but,.....We lose something of great value,...our credibility.

1Sam.3:19,..( Samual,.. great and humbled man unto God,)"And Samual grew,and The Lord was with him,and he did let none of His Words fall to the ground."

Mt.18:3,..(Jesus speaking), "Verily I say unto you,Except ye be converted,
and become as little children,ye shall not enter the kingdom of heaven."

A 'little' child is humble / bendable :

* real example of a true child of God: Mt.5:3-12,...'the beatitudes'

* Jn.3:12,...' But as many as recieve Him,to them gave He power
TO BECOME the CHILDREN of God.( He gives us Grace : "The Devine
enfflence upon our heart and it 's reflection in the Life.)Power..working through the Holy Spirit,...drawing us to His will.

* Lk.12:47-48,..' And that servant,..(which we really are a child,servant, (serveing the Lord) son's,etc,..who knows the will of the Father )...who knew his Lord's will and doeth it not,prepareth not himself,neither did His will,"shall be beaten "...? with many stripes."
Question: you mean,The Father would acually BEAT us?...where there are marks on our skin ?

Andrew,What these brethren patiently and lovingly were trying to help you to see,...Why would you scoff at ? And the Denny Kenaston artical,that Proud Papa brought forth,.....I believe was as good and Godly way,as I have ever heard,...you scoffed at.
I do believe this man studied the Words of this Godly instruction on
raising Godly children,and The Spirit of God taught this man the most perfect way,...not abuse but through patience,love,much work care and time,..to bring up his children in the way that they should go,..
And yet you scoofed at it.To me there is something to be feared here.,...because when we scoff at something The Lord has taught,..according to His Word and Spirit,..Then really ,..aren't we really scoofing at The Lord' work ?

And there is another important factor here,...children need not only the
guidance,correction, trained,switched when needed,but to learn the joy of work. Which is taboo,,,a crime, for them to labor these days.

As for 'the times that we live in'..?"The Lord is the same yesterday,today
and forever,...He changes not.His Word shall never pass away.

It is most unfortunate if a child does not have more than a near nothing to do,...where they can be tired when night comes,..and need their rest, and not be a late sleeper In the day as some,...getting into things,at night like the gangs etc...not just leting their children go to waste....having loving,patience,parents that care...that take the time,care and hard work,to raise,.teach,..correct,.with the rod when it is neccasary,....according to the Word.

And too,you mentioned the hand vs the switch,..
Did you not realize,..Hitting the child with the hand,jar's the child,it could
Be so light,as to do nothing,or hitting them with the hand could be so hard
That it could break their bones.where a little keen switch could apply topical
switch marks,and the hurt that is needed,and not damage them deep .
They will learn to fear the....ever so small keen switch,at an early age.

And finally,

Eph.5:1,..(Paul teaching)..'Be ye followers of God,as dear children.'
* who is God ?But He who speaketh,He is the Spirit / Word
...also the inspired Word because it comes from Him.

It is with great care,that I write this to you,...as well as I know all the other
encouragements to you were.
Lovingly always,
elizabeth