Does God love the unrepentant sinner?

Does God love the unrepentant sinner?

by Charles Finney, from "The Guilt of Sin"

"God is angry with the wicked every day!" Psalm 7:11

God is not angry merely against the sin abstracted from the sinner, but against the sinner himself! Some people have labored hard to set up this ridiculous and absurd generalization, and would attempt to make it appear . . .
that God is angry at sin--yet not at the sinner;
that He hates the theft--but loves the thief;
that He abhors adultery--but is pleased with the adulterer.

Now this is supreme nonsense! The sin has no moral character apart from the sinner. The act of sin is nothing, apart from the sinful actor. What God hates and disapproves is not the mere event, the thing done, in distinction from the doer--but He hates the doer himself! It grieves and displeases Him that a rational and moral agent, under His government, should array himself against his own Creator, against all that is right and just in the universe. This is what offends God. The sinner himself is the direct and the only object of His anger!

So the Bible shows that God is angry with the wicked--and not with the abstract sin. If the wicked do no repent, God will whet His sword--He has bent His bow and made it ready--not to shoot at the sin, but the sinner--the wicked man who has done the abominable thing. This is the only doctrine of both the Bible, and of common sense on this subject.

"The wicked and those who love violence, His soul hates!" Psalm 11:5

"The LORD detests all the proud of heart. Be sure of this: They will not go unpunished!" Proverbs 16:5

"The LORD is a jealous and avenging God; the LORD takes vengeance and is filled with wrath. The LORD takes vengeance on His foes and maintains His wrath against His enemies!" Nahum 1:2

"Whoever whoever rejects the Son will not see life, for God's wrath remains on him." John 3:36

"You are storing up wrath against yourself for the day of God's wrath, when His righteous judgment will be revealed." Romans 2:5

"But for those who are self-seeking and who reject the truth and follow evil--there will be wrath and anger!" Romans 2:8

"What if God, choosing to show His wrath and make His power known, bore with great patience the objects of His wrath--prepared for destruction?" Romans 9:22

"Let no one deceive you with empty words, for because of such things God's wrath comes on those who are disobedient." Ephesians 5:6

Hi savannah,

are you in agreement or disagreement with Finney on this subject ?

in agreement!

John 3:16 (KJV)
16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

Romans 5:8 (KJV)
8 But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.

1 John 4:10 (KJV)
10 Herein is love, not that we loved God, but that he loved us, and sent his Son to be the propitiation for our sins.

1 John 4:19 (KJV)
19 We love him, because he first loved us.

rbanks,

Who are the we's,us's,and our's,in these verses?

1 John 4:10 (KJV)
10 Herein is love, not that we loved God, but that he loved us, and sent his Son to be the propitiation for our sins.

1 John 4:19 (KJV)
19 We love him, because he first loved us.

Romans 5:8 (KJV)
8 But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.

Hi, rbanks

I do not think anything that was written, contridicts the verses that you posted.

quote-
that He hates the theft--but loves the thief;
-quote

I agree with much of Finney's writings but if we are not careful we could misinterpret.

Jesus appeased the wrath of God by suffering in the sinners place.

The "us" in all those verses at one time were sinners who had not yet repented.

///Who are the we's,us's,and our's,in these verses?///

Those whom were enemies of God, but now are 'reconciled to God by the death of his Son'

Those whom were enemies of God, but now are 'reconciled to God by the death of his Son'

-quote

So he had to love us before we repented.

It is the goodness and love of God that leads man to repentance.

///So he had to love us before we repented.///

That is Savannahs point, and a good one.

I caught it after I posted.

///It is the goodness and love of God that leads man to repentance///

But if Finney where correct, that God does not have any love for the sinner, than how could it be said that the goodness and love of God leads the sinner to repentance.

It does appear as an inconsistency in Finneys logic.

Who are the we's,us's,and our's,in these verses?

we us our = you/your/beloved/called/saints

The answer to the question is given from John, the inspired author of the letter. Keeping in mind that it is in truth the the Holy Spirit's answer, Who is none other than God Himself.

1 John 1:4 And these things we write to you, that your joy may be full.

And again,the answer to the question is given from Paul, the inspired author of the letter. Keeping in mind that it is in truth the the Holy Spirit's answer, Who is none other than God Himself.

Romans 1:7 To all that are in Rome, beloved of God, called to be saints: Grace to you, and peace from God our Father, and the Lord Jesus Christ.

rbanks wrote ///I agree with much of Finney's writings but if we are not careful we could misinterpret.
Jesus appeased the wrath of God by suffering in the sinners place.
The "us" in all those verses at one time were sinners who had not yet repented.///

I think I have to agree with you on this one rbanks, Well said.

I use to read Finney's writings and was blessed but was always troubled by some of those inconsistency's.

I believe it was because of the time of his ministry and what he was dealing with concerning the church and so many were not truly converted.

He was stirred about so many that had excepted teachings without true repentance in their life.

I think sometimes he went a little overboard in trying to get true repentance in people.

God Bless you proudpapa!

Have a good night!!

God Bless you rbanks!

Have a good night!!

savannah,

wrote //// we us our = you/your/beloved/called/saints////

not all of the called are chosen.
yet the calling or drawing is evidence of Gods Love.

The Inspired Scripture says : John 12:32

And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw (all men) unto me.

The Inspired Scriptures teach, That Jesus did not die for all, but is drawing all, and commanding all to repent. (and those whosoever will repent, He died for)

His Infinite Wisdom before the foundation of the world which searcheth the reins and hearts,
Which foreknew who would respond to His draw (call) after He was lifted up.

By His determinate counsel, He foreknew What way each and every man,s heart would deviseth, So from this Infinite Wisdom the Lord directeth (He predestinated) each mans steps.

From the Foundation of the World, God is choosing a few, out of the many that, He is calling and commanding and drawing.

Acts 17:30 He commandeth (draw) (call) ALL MEN every where to repent.

This is Why The Bible says that He: Acts 17:26
"hath made of one blood all nations of men for to dwell on all the face of the earth, and hath determined the times before appointed, and the bounds of their habitation"

SO that : v.27 "they should seek the Lord, if haply they might feel after him, and find him, though he be not far from every one of us:"

The "everyone of us" is, every accountable aged person in this dispensation of time.

God is no longer winking at any of His offspring, They are all being drawn, called and commanded to repent!

28 For in him we live, and move, and have our being; as certain also of your own poets have said, For we are also his offspring.

Jesus in Luke 17 v 21 says "...behold, the kingdom of God is within you." notice to whom He is spoke this to.

"Have I any pleasure at all that the wicked should die? saith the Lord God: and not that he should return from his ways, and live?"

What a Loving Gracious God calling whoesoever will to come to Him!

Finney had a way of rattling his congregants and later his students, he cut no slack. His devotion to the ministry God gave him made him a very intense individual, and his mind assembled arguments of the moment through the following Tuesday if one were foolish enough to take him on. At one of his meetings, a man stood to plead- "Mister Finney, you have made your case! May we please approach and receive Jesus, to settle ourselves in the justice of God?" (My paraphrase)

It was the chief justice of the New York supreme court, sitting with the other justices also anxious to come forward and repent before God.

Yes he had a way of making the unrepentant feel the weight of God's righteous claim against their sin-filled lives. He did not beg people to come accept the meek and lowly Jesus, a savior who was apologizing for the inconvenience but was hoping for a favorable answer.

He wouldn't do well in a modern American Mega-church. He carefully defined love as seeking the highest and best for the one loved, and laid out how destructive to that sin actually was. He said God had no reasonable choice but to hate the sinner, the one stealing eternal life from the ones He loved. He left them with no excuse, no place to hide, no doctrine to use for temporary comfort.

No coffee and cookies in the foyer after church.

When you think about it, if God does have a loving character, and a responsibility to ensure justice in the universe, He must be as Finney described. And imagine His attitude toward what He sees in America today, let alone the rest of this arrogant unrepenting world??

The Word of God is a two-edged sword. It is a fearful and awesome thing to see a skilled man wielding one, you don't see it every day.

I think Finney had at least two, and probably another tied to his leg...

Quote: """But if Finney where correct, that God does not have any love for the sinner, than how could it be said that the goodness and love of God leads the sinner to repentance."""

God cannot love sin, but He did love me when He chose a sinner to be a son. Like Paul the more I learn about God the greater I understand what God in Christ Jesus has done for a poor reprobate lost ungodly sinner like me and all that are chosen to have Christ in them and all that come to Him are in Him. Of twain, one new man.

God will not abort the birthing He has accomplished in me by the incorruptible Seed of my Father, born again not of corruptible but incorruptible perfect Seed, "Christ in you the hope of Glory". God hates abortion and will not allow it to be carried out in Heavenly Places where we are seated with Christ birthed in us.

Who will set me free from this body of death and sin, Praise God, In Jesus Christ.

In Christ: Phillip

Quote: """But if Finney where correct, that God does not have any love for the sinner, than how could it be said that the goodness and love of God leads the sinner to repentance."""

God cannot love sin, but He did love me when He chose a sinner to be a son. Like Paul the more I learn about God the greater I understand what God in Christ Jesus has done for a poor reprobate lost ungodly sinner like me and all that are chosen to have Christ in them and all that come to Him are in Him. Of twain, one new man.

God will not abort the birthing He has accomplished in me by the incorruptible Seed of my Father, born again not of corruptible but incorruptible perfect Seed, "Christ in you the hope of Glory". God hates abortion and will not allow it to be carried out in Heavenly Places where we are seated with Christ birthed in us.

Who will set me free from this body of death and sin, Praise God, In Jesus Christ.

In Christ: Phillip

Quote: """But if Finney where correct, that God does not have any love for the sinner, than how could it be said that the goodness and love of God leads the sinner to repentance."""

God cannot love sin, but He did love me when He chose a sinner to be a son. Like Paul the more I learn about God the greater I understand what God in Christ Jesus has done for a poor reprobate lost ungodly sinner like me and all that are chosen to have Christ in them and all that come to Him are in Him. Of twain, one new man.

God will not abort the birthing He has accomplished in me by the incorruptible Seed of my Father, born again not of corruptible but incorruptible perfect Seed, "Christ in you the hope of Glory". God hates abortion and will not allow it to be carried out in Heavenly Places where we are seated with Christ birthed in us.

Who will set me free from this body of death and sin, Praise God, In Jesus Christ.

In Christ: Phillip

Matthew 5:43-48 (NKJV)
Love Your Enemies
43 “ You have heard that it was said, ‘You shall love your neighbor and hate your enemy. ’ 44 But I say to you, love your enemies, bless those who curse you, do good to those who hate you, and pray for those who spitefully use you and persecute you, 45 that you may be sons of your Father in heaven; for He makes His sun rise on the evil and on the good, and sends rain on the just and on the unjust. 46 For if you love those who love you, what reward have you? Do not even the tax collectors do the same? 47 And if you greet your brethren only, what do you do more than others? Do not even the tax collectors do so? 48 Therefore you shall be perfect, just as your Father in heaven is perfect.

Christinyou wrote ///God cannot love sin,///

agree

Jesus tells us Luke 17:3 .." If thy brother trespass against thee, rebuke him"...

We see that God (rebukes)(convicts)(draw)(call) ALL MEN every where to repent, because they have all universally trespassed agaist Him.

Romans ch 3:19 Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God.

Acts 17:30 And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth (((all men))) every where to repent

Luke 17:3 "and if he repent, forgive him."

Whom are called by God ?

What is the prerequisite for recieving Grace and forgiveness ?

Mark 2:17
When Jesus heard it, he saith unto them, They that are whole have no need of the physician, but they that are sick: I came not to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance

Luke 5:32
I came not to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance

Luke 15:7
I say unto you, that likewise joy shall be in heaven over one sinner that repenteth, more than over ninety and nine just persons, which need no repentance

Luke 24:47
And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem.

Romans ch 3:19 Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that ((every)) mouth may be stopped, and ((all the world)) may become guilty before God.

So all sinners are being called the only excemptions are the (self)righteous of what John says : Luke 3:8
"Bring forth therefore fruits worthy of repentance, and begin not to say within yourselves, We have Abraham to our father: for I say unto you, That God is able of these stones to raise up children unto Abraham."

So we Preach

Acts 2:38
Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

Acts 3:19
Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord.

Acts 26:20
But shewed first unto them of Damascus, and at Jerusalem, and throughout all the coasts of Judaea, and then to the Gentiles, that they should repent and turn to God, and do works meet for repentance.

RE: ////God will not abort the birthing He has accomplished in me by the incorruptible Seed of my Father, born again not of corruptible but incorruptible perfect Seed, "Christ in you the hope of Glory". God hates abortion and will not allow it to be carried out in Heavenly Places where we are seated with Christ birthed in us.///

agree abortion no, still births do happen though,

Acts ch 26:29 King Agrippa, believest thou the prophets? I know that thou believest.
28 Then Agrippa said unto Paul, Almost thou persuadest me to be a Christian.

King Agrippa was being convicted (called) but He had a lot to give up inorder to press through, this is the reason Jesus says:

Mark 10:25
It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God.

very good bear.

Is it possible that God could hate and love at the same time? If so, then everyone's argument is moot. Please don't try to interpret what God is capable of with our own human limitations. We are called to love our enemies because God does. Doesn't that suggest something to you? There is a love of pity that God exhibits to the entire world giving grace even to those who ultimately will never repent and will always be and, in God's omniscience always have been, condemned and under His awful wrath ( hate expressed ) Most of you are assuming that if God loves someone it is because of some inherent good or worth in them. That just isn't true Biblically. God can love the most vile sinner whom He also in another sense hates. at least Scripture seems to so indicate. This makes God's grace and love all the more compelling to me. He chooses to love with great pity a lot of very wicked people, of which I was one.

Shall we lay Finney aside and just go to the words of Jesus?

Should we all just abandon this conversation and lay quietly at the feet of Joel Osteen, and soak in the love and compassion and good feelings, and on the way home stop by the shelter and pick up a puppy?

Finney is not easy. But for 50 years he preached a gospel that drove people blubbering onto their faces begging God for forgiveness and rising up to be some of the most powerful witnesses for Christ since the time of the early church. Finney won the movers and shakers of society, the doctors and the lawyers and the politicians- the ones these days who get coddled and curried for favor, rarely confronted for their moral turpitude.

Reports have been around that 80% of his converts continued in Christ unlike the modern evangelical norm of less than 5%. He introduced the altar call, the challenge to get baptized in the Holy Spirit. His cry for human equality was a large part of the Christian outrage over American slavery, we all know what happened there.

Over and over again he would employ a method of ministry that produced revival, with miracles too numerous to count. He confronted everybody, from drunks in the gutter to the princes in parliaments. He like Paul in II Corinthians "destroyed arguments, and every proud obstacle that exalts itself against the knowledge of Christ."

Yes, I am a Finney fan. But for me it's a little personal.

Nearly 100 years after his death his words struck my heart and caused me to see the horror of my own sin before God. More than any other ministry I have encountered, live or on paper, Charles Finney took me to task and pushed my face to the ground before a God I had not really known before.

You can still get a copy of his autobiography on Amazon, judge for yourself.

If you do... fasten your seatbelt!

I would never bash Finney. Most people could never hold a candle to his life and ministry.

Some things are hard to understand even as Peter said this about Paul's writings.

The main thing that I was saying is that some of his writings can be interpreted wrong.

I have been blessed by his ministry writings.

I also do not believe that it is some good things in us as to the reason God saved us but it is the Love and good in Him that cause Him to demonstrate that love toward us in while still sinners Christ died for us.

So neither can the knowledge of the certainty of the salvation of the saints, with the condition of it, be to them a temptation to live in sin; but, on the contrary, this knowledge must act as a powerful incentive to the exercise of confidence in God, and perseverance in holiness unto the end. So neither can the certainty that the necessary means will be used, afford any encouragement to neglect the use of them in the case of man's salvation, any more than the revealed certainty that a farmer will sow his field and have a crop, would encourage him to neglect to sow. The known certainty of both the means and the end, with an understanding of the moral nature of the certainty, has no natural tendency to beget presumption and neglect; but, on the contrary, to beget a diligent, and cheerful, and confident use of the necessary means. Charles Finney

The man who has faith in God's certainty will carry out the conditions to completion.

As we can readily see from the Finney quotes, this is not spiritual comfort food. Not the kind of reading that inspires you to snuggle in by the fire and get lost in a gripping story. It is work.

But his life and story compel the study, as his ministry brought so many to Christ. It seems to me his contribution to the spread of the gospel ranks right up there with Wesley, Whitfield, and others whose names we know. As Paul wrote to Timothy to train up men who would teach other men... Here we are.

In fact, we do this even today for one another on this forum!

As to the words of Jesus, this is exactly what Finney did- he took the words and lit fires in men's hearts with them. He forced men to deal with those words, and challenged others who twisted them. May we be such even today!

Can you imagine if Peter had stood up after Pentecost and said,

"Hear ye. We have prepared little booklets for you, that you can take home and read at your leisure..."

Rather He has chosen the foolishness of preaching to confound the wise.

I would say Finney did quite a bit of that. As with all of them, and with Sidewalk, chew the meat, spit out the bones.

The concept of God hating the sinner certainly flies in the face of the way most of us perceive our loving heavenly Father. But it has made for a good discussion here, and I appreciate all the input. Were it not for a little wrangling this would be rather stale and boring! I am loving everyone here as I sense the passion we share for Jesus Christ.

Would it be fair to say few of us get to converse on these topics at this level in the daily course of our lives- the friends I have who understand these groanings are usually at least five states away!

I would suspect that in God's holy love there is really no separation in what causes Him to both love and hate. We have our own internals on those words, but God must be constrained to love the good and hate the bad all in the same framework. It is clear that He has character traits that do not waver, and the great responsibility for upholding justice among His moral agents.

For what it is worth, one of my holy soulmates is a pastor named Perry Floyd in Albuquerque. One aspect of his ministry, and devotion to helping men grow in God, is a page he sends out by email once or twice a week. I thought this week's message was poignant to our discussion, and have reposted it here. (Not with his permission, but I know he would want it to reach the people of God as widely as possible!)

Anyway, Heeeere's Perry!

CONSIDER THIS...

"If passion drives you, let reason hold the reins." Benjamin Franklin

"We know that all of us possess knowledge. This 'knowledge'
puffs up, but love builds up." Apostle Paul

An encounter in a Denny's Restaurant adjusted my perspective on both people and the gospel. Elucidate? Of course.

I was a seminary student,and it was one of those weeks when I had two exams on Friday; a major theology, plus a minor philosophy test looming at the end of the week. Thursday night late I went to Denny's in Fort Worth, Texas, spread my study materials out on the bar and signaled for the coffee to flow. The cramming would continue until I knew the material.

Just after 2:00 am, a beautiful young lady walked into Denny's, sat two stools away from me at the bar, and ordered milk. As she sipped her drink, she noticed my books and said, "Seminary student, huh?"
"Yup," I replied, whereupon she struck up a conversation with me. I was glad to take a break from studying, and she was gorgeous.

She grew up Jehovah's Witness, she told me. Fully alert, I went into evangelist / apologist mode. I threw some Greek at her, and she threw some Greek right back. This gal knew her stuff; the JW's had trained her well for this kind of conversation. She and I argued theology, Biblical interpretation and church history for a good ninety minutes.

Neither of us convinced the other of anything, but we made our points, pointed out our differences, and had a fine discussion.

As our conversation shifted, I asked her what she did for a living.

"I'm a stripper," she replied, and I spit out a little coffee. "What?" was all I could manage.

"Yeah, I strip every night at ___________ ( a well-known local strip club), and I get off at 2; I stop by here some nights for milk. It's on my way home."

We discussed her work situation for a few minutes, my naivete on full display. As I struggled to get my head around her words, I stammered,

"Uh, uh, let me ask you something...do you believe the stuff you were arguing with me?" Her answer, given with a chuckle, has influenced my perspective on people permanently.

"Nah," she said, "I don't believe any of that stuff, I just like to argue," and with that, she strolled out to go home.

Knowing stuff is great; apologetic arguments are fine. However, if they don't move from your mind to your heart, and don't change your lifestyle, they are, frankly, useless. I felt about a foot tall in the aftermath of that discussion; while I was passionately presenting my beliefs, she was playing with me and having a good time intellectually. One thing I learned was to introduce lifestyle into an argument way earlier than I did that night- (By the way, you're not a stripper, are you?)

I also learned that what a person believes is how they live, not necessarily what they say. Francis
of Assisi said, "Preach the gospel at all times; when necessary use words."

Loving Jesus with the smart part and the heart part,
Perry Floyd

If anyone is interested in being on Perry's e-mail list, let me know on my email and we'll get you signed in. No cost!

I have not been following this discussion, but did read this post. I love Perry Floyd's piece.

Perry is right on in his declaration of how wasteful it is to discuss theology without knowing whether this person has appropriated the gospel into his/her life.

I have talked at length with all kinds of sinners. Most will admit they are going to hell; others believe God is too good to send anyone to hell; and then some think their good outweighs the bad they do so that should earn them the right to get to heaven. But the most informative thing for me is to ask, "tell me about your walk with the LORD." This is where one needs to start. What they will say is so revealing...

Yes, I find discussing theology with someone who is not walking the talk wearisome. Waste of time.

Bearmaster posted the following,

Mark 10:22-22
"Looking at him, Jesus felt A LOVE for him, and said to him. One thing you lack, go, sell all you possess, and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven, and come follow Me". But at these words he was saddened, and he went away grieving, for he was one who owned much property.

"Jesus felt a LOVE for the rich young ruler. Yet he pointed out what he lacked to inherit eternal life. Of course the rich young ruler could not forsake all to follow Jesus. Even with the love of Christ being shown him."

"Seems like this an example of God's love toward one who did not repent." [end of Bearmaster's post]

Here's Mark's account in full and in context:

Mark 10:21-27 Then Jesus having looked attentively at him, loved him, and said to him, "One thing you lack. Be going away; as many things as you have, sell and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. And come! Be following Me, having taken up the cross."

But having become appalled at the word, he went away distressed, for he was having many possessions. And Jesus having looked around, says to His disciples, "How with difficulty will the ones having riches enter into the kingdom of God!"

But the disciples were shocked at His words. So Jesus again answering, says to them, "Children, how difficult it is for the ones having confidence in riches to enter into the kingdom of God!

"It is easier for a camel to enter through the eye of the needle than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God."

Now they were even more astonished, saying to themselves, "Then who is able to be saved?"

But having looked attentively at them, Jesus says, "With men it is impossible, but not with God! For all things are possible with God!" [verse 27]

The key verse here is the last. Verse 27. Jesus gives his disciples His answer in this verse to their question,""Then who is able to be saved?" And what is His answer! "With men it is impossible, but not with God! For all things are possible with God!"

This tells us that the subject is salvation. As does the prior verses where 'entering the kingdom of God' are mentioned.

Salvation may not have come at this moment to this man here spoken of, but none can say that it never came to him. Again, Jesus words in answer to His disciples question,"Then who is able to be saved?", are these, "With men it is impossible, but not with God! For all things are possible with God!"

None can say that Jesus was not speaking of this very man in particular, of whom Jesus says, "...having looked attentively at him, loved him..."

Yes, the Lord Jesus "loved" the rich young ruler! We also read how Jesus "loved" John, the beloved disciple, Lazarus, Mary and Martha (John 11:5), and the believing leper (Mark 1:41).

"Many waters cannot quench love, neither can the floods drown it" (Song of Solomon 8:7). And we know that nothing can separate us from the love of God in Christ Jesus (Rom. 8:38-39)! And that all whom Jesus loves, He loves "unto the end" (John 13:1)!

It may be hard or difficult or better yet "impossible" with men, but "with God all things are possible"!

A barren ninety-year-old Sarah, and her hundred-year-old husband, Abraham (Gen. 18:14) have a son, and the virgin Mary conceived and bear the incarnate Son of God!

Impossible! Yes! That is, with men, but not with God!

Consider Jesus' words here:

Matthew 21:28-31 But what do you think? A man had two children, and coming to the first he said, Child, go today; work in my vineyard. And answering, he said, I will not. But afterward, having repented, he went. And having come to the second, he said the same. And answering, he said, I go, sir; but he did not leave. Which of the two did the will of the father? They said to Him, The first. Jesus said to them, Truly I say to you, The tax collectors and the harlots go before you into the kingdom of God.

Ray C. Stedman writes the following,

In Chapter 14, Verse 51, reference is made to an incident which only Mark records. In his account of Jesus' betrayal and arrest. Mark tells us that as he was being led away by the soldiers, a young man followed him, wearing nothing but a linen cloth about his body. Apparently thinking he was a disciple of Jesus who had been foolish enough to remain behind while all the others had run for their lives, the soldiers attempted to seize him. But all they got was the cloth as he ran naked into the night. Many scholars have suggested that this was Mark, for he would have been a "young man" at that time. Perhaps, because of his fascination with Jesus, he had been hanging around, hoping to learn more, had gotten into this trap unknowingly, and had to flee for his life, leaving his garment behind. The fact that Mark is the only one who mentions this incident is highly suggestive that this indeed was Mark himself.

But there is another story, in Mark 10, found in Matthew and Luke as well, which has fascinated me -- the story of the rich young ruler. Here we have a young man who, toward the end of Jesus' ministry, came to him with a question. He was a wealthy young man of the ruling class, evidently a handsome, very warm person. He ran up and knelt at Jesus' feet, and said, "Good Teacher, what must I do to inherit eternal life?" (Mark 10:17b RSV). Jesus Said, "Have you kept the commandments?" The young man said he had kept them from his youth. Then Mark records something that neither of the other accounts tell us. He says, "And Jesus looking upon him loved him," (Mark 10:21a RSV). That little personal note suggests to me that Mark was that rich young ruler.

So perhaps that little story of the young man who ran away without his robe is Mark's way of telling us that the rich young ruler who went from Jesus so sorrowfully -- as the account tells us, because he had great possessions -- did not remain sad, that later on, having thought things over, he made the commitment Jesus required of him: he gave away all that he had. He gave up his inheritance, and all he had left was a robe -- and he lost even that, finally, and he came and followed Jesus. I do not say that the Scriptures tell us explicitly this is what happened -- but I think it is! So, if you do not mind the "Stedmaniac" version, this gives us a little added insight into The Gospel According to Mark. [end of Ray Stedman quote]

Again, I quote Bearmaster, "Seems like this an example of God's love toward one who did not repent."

But I say to you that things are not always quite as they might seem!

I will leave you now with His Word in regard to the subject of this thread. Meditate upon His Word. It is found in none other than John the beloved apostle's inspired written account of Jesus the Christ. In the same chapter which is found the most popular verse in the Bible,John 3:16.

Here is the verse:

John 3:36 The one believing into the Son has everlasting life; but the one disobeying the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God remains on him.

And finally,

For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ. And to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, even Jesus, who delivered us from the wrath to come. 1 Thess. 5:9 & 1:10

Hi savannah,

savannah wrote ///Salvation may not have come at this moment to this man here spoken of, but none can say that it never came to him. Again, Jesus words in answer to His disciples question,"Then who is able to be saved?", are these, "With men it is impossible, but not with God! For all things are possible with God!"
None can say that Jesus was not speaking of this very man in particular, of whom Jesus says, "...having looked attentively at him, loved him..."
Yes, the Lord Jesus "loved" the rich young ruler! We also read how Jesus "loved" John, the beloved disciple, Lazarus, Mary and Martha (John 11:5), and the believing leper (Mark 1:41).
"Many waters cannot quench love, neither can the floods drown it" (Song of Solomon 8:7). And we know that nothing can separate us from the love of God in Christ Jesus (Rom. 8:38-39)! And that all whom Jesus loves, He loves "unto the end" (John 13:1)!
It may be hard or difficult or better yet "impossible" with men, but "with God all things are possible"! ///

The question was "Does God love the unrepentant sinner?"
so bear's usage of Mark 10:22-22 is a sufficiant scripture for answering the question of "Does God love the unrepentant sinner?"

Now Does God Love the unrepentant sinner, Whom from the fondation of the world God foreknow's will stay an unrepentant sinner ? umm?

Was the Love available for the unrepentant sinner, Whom from the fondation of the world God foreknow's will stay an unrepentant sinner ?

2 Thessalonians 2:10 "...because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved."
11 And (((for this cause))) God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:"

((punishing for the cause of not recieving, indicates clearly that something was offered and that their was an ability to except. ))

Imagine punishing a child for not eating his dinner, when their is no dinner for him to eat,

((edit add : or placing the childs dinner some where that he has no ability to reach and than punishing him for his inabilty to reach it.))

savannah wrote : ///It may be hard or difficult or better yet "impossible" with men, but "with God all things are possible"! ///

Yes, Salvation is of God.
Man can not come to God unless God draws him, convicts him, calls him . But many whom are called, drawn and convicted respond Like the jews whom stoned Stephen Acts 7:51
"Ye stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, ye do always resist the Holy Ghost: as your fathers did, so do ye."

edit: add ((you can only resist that which is compelling you. If you are not being compelled, than you would not be said to be resisting))

Man is guilty because of his ability and not because of his inabilty as what many systematic theologies teach.

savannah wrote :///Ray C. Stedman writes.........///

That was an interesting perspective of Stedman's, speculative but interesting.

savannah wrote RE: ////But I say to you that things are not always quite as they might seem!
I will leave you now with His Word in regard to the subject of this thread. Meditate upon His Word. It is found in none other than John the beloved apostle's inspired written account of Jesus the Christ. In the same chapter which is found the most popular verse in the Bible,John 3:16.
Here is the verse:
John 3:36 The one believing into the Son has everlasting life; but the one disobeying the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God remains on him.////

John 3:36 "He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him."

John the Baptist words of verse 36, seem to almost be reiterating what Jesus said in verse 18 :

John ch 3:18
"He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God"

The condemnation and wrath continues on those whom do not recieve the offering.

The offering is available to all men every where.

Jesus in verse 14 of John ch 3 shows us from the Old Testament a metaphor to help describe the operation.

John ch 3 v 14 "And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:
15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life."

Numberst ch 21
"6 And the Lord sent fiery serpents among the people, and they bit the people; and much people of Israel died.
7 Therefore the people came to Moses, and said, We have sinned, for we have spoken against the Lord, and against thee; pray unto the Lord, that he take away the serpents from us. And Moses prayed for the people.
8 And the Lord said unto Moses, Make thee a fiery serpent, and set it upon a pole: and it shall come to pass, that every one that is bitten, when he looketh upon it, shall live.
9 And Moses made a serpent of brass, and put it upon a pole, and it came to pass, that if a serpent had bitten any man, when he beheld the serpent of brass, he lived."

God did the Saving!

but it was up to each individual to recieve by faith that operation of God, and those whom refused it died. those whom chose other paths to be healed by the bites from the fiery serpents, died.

For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.

How many times have you heard people lament their sin because the law is too hard for them? It is impossible for anyone to obey the law perfectly, they claim. And yet Deuteronomy 30:11 clearly teaches that the law is not too hard for us. How desperate we are for excuses!

The same principle where fathers are commanded not to exasperate their children also applies to God, He is not afraid to comply with His own law. No good father demands more of his children than they are able to perform, that would be exasperating!

Not only does He love His unrepentant children, He knows just how far from being honest about their sin that they are. It's not that He loves us because we are so trapped in sin we can't avoid, He actually loves us while we are commiting sin for which we have no excuse!

That is some very serious love!

Quote: """Not only does He love His unrepentant children, He knows just how far from being honest about their sin that they are. It's not that He loves us because we are so trapped in sin we can't avoid, He actually loves us while we are commiting sin for which we have no excuse!

That is some very serious love!"""

Amen brother.

No excuse, just truth;

Acts 13:37-39 But He, whom God raised again, saw no corruption. Be it known unto you therefore, men and brethren, that through this man is preached unto you the forgiveness of sins: And by Him all that believe are justified from all things, from which ye could not be justified by the law of Moses.

Even those that think they can keep the Law, must live in the Law and be tested in the Law. They will fail.

There is no justification unto life in Christ Jesus in keeping the Law, even if we could keep the Law, there is no life in it, only justification of the flesh.

AS the Jews taught;

Acts 15:5 But there rose up certain of the sect of the Pharisees which believed, saying, That it was needful to circumcise them, and to command them to keep the law of Moses.

The truth of the Law, no one can bear the yoke of the Law.

Acts 15:10 Now therefore why tempt ye God, to put a yoke upon the neck of the disciples, which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear?

Does God praise man in trying to keep the Law?

Romans 2:28-29 For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh: But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.

The Law has only one purpose; Guilty

Romans 3:19 Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God.

Our redemption is in Christ not in the Law.

Romans 3:21-24 But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets; Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference: For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God; Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:

I so love the Law, for it shows me who I am in Christ Jesus by the Grace give me by faith, and even beyond the Law, the Love of Christ.

In Christ: Phillip