After the Tribulation: The Pre-Tribulation Rapture Fraud Exposed" Official Movie

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jTmZHDb_sP8

Sorry, brethren and SermonIndex, but I must register my protest at this video.

I have seen all these arguments against what I hold to be true many times before, and this film adds nothing.

There are many pre trib believers who post to this site who do not push their beliefs, but speak the truth in love.

Please do not turn this site into a post trib only forum, or you will lose many brethren.

david

Hi Greg,
I would like to agree with David C also.
Again their are people on this who can only see "persecution"which stems from the belief in a post rapture belief.
All rapture believers have to realize that our rapture views do effect our other beliefs such as "salvation" or "Persecution" or "sin".
Unfortunately their is alot of scare mongering by people in regards to pre tribulation view on sermonindex.
Also most people who bring teaching on the endtimes leave out a whole section on the subject regarding Elijah in the endtimes.I would go as far as to say if you dont understand elijah you dont understand the end times.
I am not a pretribulation rapture believer but my understanding from previous threads is that you are not post trib believer.So I dont know where this is coming from.
I think most believers who believe in the rapture would agree their is a 7 year period coming that is divided in two halves and that the second half is where God judges the world in a serious of judgements.Also most believers will believe that we wont come under the wrath of God.So both the pre and post believe we will be protected,one by being raptured and the other by whatever(i dont know to be honest)
IN DEFENCE OF THE PRE VIEW:i dont hear them call the other side fraudsters,so lets keep the name calling out of it
yours staff

I agree with Davidc also!

Great points Staff!!!

We should be about building up the body of Christ not bashing believers.

Jesus said to watch for we know not what hour The Lord will come.

Many great men of God believed in the rapture and they will be caught up before "the great tribulation" and they also warned people that they will go through much tribulation before they enter the Kingdom of Heaven.

Blessings...from brother rbanks

jenny1234, and brother Greg,

thankyou for posting this, I do not have time right now to look at it.

I have my entire life had the pretrib view hammered down my throat, and I just do not see it in scripture.

With a mixture of osas doctrine and pretrib rapture doctrine, I can see an unprepared church for what the future has in store.

Why do we not prepare for BOTH pre- and after-
We will still need GOD in both situations!!!!

pq*

Thanks pq for the good comment!

I believe we need to respect all believers.

Proud papa I'm sorry that you had a view of the rapture hammered down your throat. So I know you could appreciate some of us not wanting this other view hammered down our throat.

Blessings...from brother rbanks

I am undecided on this matter, I can find valid proof texts for both views.

The pretrib view for me is not the easy way out but urges me to live holy and devoted to the Lord and prepared to meet the Lord at any time. I keep short accounts so that I am not caught out doing something shameful when the Lord returns.

In the same manner, we all need to face the possibility of sudden death and be ready to meet the Lord any time. That is in effect a pre trib rapture. The only differnce is that one is caused by death, the other by the return of the Lord.

The post-trib view reminds me that we are just pilgrims here on earth and we need to display the virtues of overcomers in perilious times ahead. Everything will be shaken and the sin of man will reach its climax right before the post trib rapture.

I could also accuse the post tribbers that they could be lured into living careless lifes and wait until the tribulation starts and say, I will be alright as long as I do not get the mark of the beast.

I am always for a healthy respectful discourse on these things, weighing up scripture passages and interpreting them.

I agree very much with poster PQ to prepare for both. Calling pre-trib believers heretics is not in the spirit of love.

Actually, at most times and in most places the majority of Christians experienced some type of persecution. Some Christians experience a great tribulation right now.

I would like to know the real answer to the pre/post trib issue but much more do I want to know how I need to live daily to be ready to meet the Lord any time and receive my reward.

Here is an article from the late Dave Hunt with scripture references. He shows that the rapture and second coming are two separate event.

http://www.thebereancall.org/content/pre-or-post-trib-rapture

HomeCurrentStore FreebiesTopicsLanguagesConferenceAbout YouAbout TBCFindHelpPre- or Post-Trib Rapture?
Hunt, Dave
Oct 1 2003
The Rapture of the church involves all believers being caught up to heaven—those just resurrected, together with those alive at the time (1 Thes:4:13-18 [13] But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
[14] For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
[15] For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
[16] For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
[17] Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
[18] Wherefore comfort one another with these words.
). If it occurs at the beginning of the tribulation period, then clearly Christ’s Second Coming at the end of the Tribulation to rescue Israel in the midst of Armageddon is a separate event. According to Zechariah:14:3-5 [3] Then shall the LORD go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle.
[4] And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south.
[5] And ye shall flee to the valley of the mountains; for the valley of the mountains shall reach unto Azal: yea, ye shall flee, like as ye fled from before the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah: and the LORD my God shall come, and all the saints with thee.
, “all the saints” must accompany Christ back to earth. But if the Rapture occurs at the end of the Tribulation, it must be simultaneous with the Second Coming, making them one event. Which is it: two events separated by seven years, or one event with two diverse purposes?

This question, though it has nothing to do with the gospel of salvation, divides much of the evangelical church. Happily, it can be settled rather easily. The descriptions in Scripture of the Rapture and Second Coming respectively are so different in so many details that they could not possibly be describing the same occurrence. We can’t cover all of these distinctions, but here are a few:

1) At the Rapture , Christ does not return to earth but catches believers up to meet Him above the earth, taking them directly to heaven: “I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also” (Jn:14:3And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.); “caught up...to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord” (1 Thes:4:17Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.).

In contrast, at the Second Coming Christ returns to this earth to rule Israel and the world from David’s throne in Jerusalem: “his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem” (Zec:14:4And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south.); “the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David: And he shall reign over the house of Jacob for ever; and of his kingdom there shall be no end” (Lk 1:32, 33); “And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him....The armies which are in heaven followed him....Out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and shall rule them with a rod of iron” (Rev:19:11-15 [11] And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.
[12] His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself.
[13] And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.
[14] And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.
[15] And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.
).

2) At the Rapture there is a resurrection of all believers who have died up to that time: “the dead shall be raised incorruptible” (1 Cor:15:52In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed., 53); “the dead in Christ shall rise first...” (1 Thes:4:16For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:).

In contrast, at the Second Coming there is no resurrection until Antichrist is defeated, he and the false prophet have been “cast alive into a lake of fire” (Rev:19:20And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.) and Satan has been bound in the “bottomless pit [for] a thousand years” (20:1-3) —none of which is even remotely related to the rapture of believers to heaven. Then, to “the first resurrection”which occurred at the Rapture are added a unique group: “them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshiped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands...they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years” (4, 5).

3) At the Rapture , the bodies of living believers (like those who are resurrected) will be changed to become immortal: “We shall not all sleep [i.e., die], but we shall all be changed...the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we [who are living] shall be changed. For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality” (1 Cor:15:51-53 [51] Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
[52] In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
[53] For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
); “we which are alive...shall be caught up together with them [the resurrected saints]...to meet the Lord in the air [clearly requiring immortal bodies]” (1 Thes:4:17Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.).

In contrast, at the Second Coming all of the saints return with Christ from heaven and will therefore already have been changed into immortality: “the Lord my God shall come, and all the saints with thee” (Zec:14:5And ye shall flee to the valley of the mountains; for the valley of the mountains shall reach unto Azal: yea, ye shall flee, like as ye fled from before the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah: and the LORD my God shall come, and all the saints with thee.); “I saw heaven opened [and one] clothed with a vesture dipped in blood...and the armies which were in heaven followed him [to] smite the nations” (Rev:19:11-15 [11] And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.
[12] His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself.
[13] And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.
[14] And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.
[15] And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.
).

4) The Rapture occurs during relative peace and prosperity, when the world does not expect judgment from God: “And as it was in the days of Noah [the last thing they expected was God’s judgment]...they did eat, they drank...married wives...were given in marriage [and as in] the days of Lot...they bought, they sold...planted...builded....Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed.” (Lk 17:26-30).

Again in complete contrast, the Second Coming occurs in the midst of the worst war the world has ever seen and following the greatest devastation this planet has ever suffered or ever will: “then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world...nor ever shall be. And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved” (Mat:24:21For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be., 22); “behold a pale horse: and his name that sat on him was Death, and Hell followed...power was given unto them over the fourth part of the earth, to kill with sword, and with hunger....There was a great earthquake...every mountain and island were moved out of their places...[men] hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks...for the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?” (Rev:6:8-17 [8] And I looked, and behold a pale horse: and his name that sat on him was Death, and Hell followed with him. And power was given unto them over the fourth part of the earth, to kill with sword, and with hunger, and with death, and with the beasts of the earth.
[9] And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:
[10] And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?
[11] And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.
[12] And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;
[13] And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.
[14] And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.
[15] And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;
[16] And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:
[17] For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?
); “and the four angels were loosed...to slay the third part of men” (9:15); “and the...sea...became as the blood of a dead man: and every living soul died in the sea. And...the rivers and fountains of waters...became blood...the fourth angel poured out his vial upon the sun; and...men were scorched with great heat...and...there was a great earthquake, such as was not since men were upon the earth....And every island fled away and the mountains were not found. And there fell upon men a great hail [of large stones]...every stone about the weight of a talent” (16:3-21); “And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True....And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen....And I saw the beast [Antichrist], and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat upon the horse, and against his army. And the beast was taken, and...the false prophet [and they] were cast alive into a lake of fire...” (19:11-21).

5) The Rapture occurs when conditions in the world seem to indicate that all is well, when very few expect Christ to return and He catches even the church by surprise: “of that day and hour knoweth no man...in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh” (Mat:24:36But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only., 44).

In contrast, when the Second Coming occurs, not even Antichrist is caught by surprise—the many visible signs alert everyone that Christ is right at the door: “when ye shall see all these things, know that it [Christ’s coming] is near, even at the doors” (Mat:24:33So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors.); “the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse” (Rev:19:19And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army.).

6) The Rapture occurs when the church is sleeping, with little expectation of the Lord’s return: “While the bridegroom tarried, they all slumbered and slept” (Mat:25:5While the bridegroom tarried, they all slumbered and slept.); “Watch ye therefore...lest coming suddenly he find you sleeping” (Mk 13:35, 36).

In contrast, the Second Coming occurs at the end of the Tribulation in the midst of worldwide devastation and hopeless distress; the Antichrist and his armies are attacking Israel, much of Jerusalem is already captured (Zec:14:1Behold, the day of the LORD cometh, and thy spoil shall be divided in the midst of thee., 2), and Israel is on the verge of annihilation. It is inconceivable that the church, if it were still here, would be slumbering in complacency and under the delusion that “surely Christ wouldn’t come now”!

7) Since the Rapture instantly takes us, without dying, out of this world of sin, pain and sorrow to be forever with Christ and like Him, never more to grieve Him, it is called the “blessed hope”: “Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ” (Titus:2:13Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ;); “every man that hath this hope” (1 Jn:3:3And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure.).

In contrast, the Second Coming (or a post-trib rapture at that time) could hardly be called a “blessed hope,” inasmuch as very few Christians (if the church were still here) would survive to enjoy it. Having refused to receive the 666 mark of the beast “in their right hand, or in their forehead” and therefore being unable to “buy or sell,” and refusing to “worship the image of the beast [they would] be killed” (Rev:13:15-17 [15] And he had power to give life unto the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak, and cause that as many as would not worship the image of the beast should be killed.
[16] And he causeth all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads:
[17] And that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name.
). It makes no sense to suggest that if you can secretly eat out of enough garbage pails to avoid starvation and still keep one step ahead of Antichrist’s world police death squads, “Blessed hope! You’ll be raptured at Armageddon!”

8) As for the Rapture , unquestionably, the early church was taught to expect it at any moment and to eagerly watch, wait and look for Christ’s return, when He will catch all believers up into His Father’s house to be with Him eternally: “Let your loins be girded about, and your lights burning; And ye yourselves like unto men that wait for their lord...” (Lk 12:35, 36); “For our conversation is in heaven; from whence also we look for the Saviour, the Lord Jesus Christ: Who shall change our vile body, that it may be fashioned like unto his glorious body” (Philippians 3:20); “...ye turned to God from idols to serve the living and true God; And to wait for his Son from heaven...even Jesus, which delivered us from the wrath to come” (1 Thes:1:9For they themselves shew of us what manner of entering in we had unto you, and how ye turned to God from idols to serve the living and true God;, 10); “ looking for that blessed hope” (Titus:2:13Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ;); “unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation” (Heb:9:28So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.). One does not watch, wait and look each day for something that cannot happen until Antichrist’s advent or the end of a seven-year tribulation. Thus, there must be a coming of Christ that could happen at any moment.

In contrast, the Second Coming , by very definition as described in Scripture, cannot be expected momentarily. Therefore, none of the scriptures just quoted concerning watching and waiting and looking for the Lord could refer to the Second Coming or to a post-trib rapture of the church. These scriptures could therefore refer only to a pre-trib rapture.

9) The pre-trib Rapture has a powerful, purifying effect upon those who have this hope in Him. The fact that it is to be expected at any moment can only mean that it must come before Antichrist is revealed and before the Tribulation. If Christ could come at any moment, there is no time to waste, no time to delay witnessing, no time to indulge in sin with the idea of repenting and changing one’s ways later: “And now, little children, abide in him; that, when he shall appear, we may have confidence, and not be ashamed before him at his coming” (1 Jn:2:28And now, little children, abide in him; that, when he shall appear, we may have confidence, and not be ashamed before him at his coming.); “And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure” (3:3).

In contrast, anticipation of the Second Coming (or a post-trib rapture at that time) could hardly have a purifying effect, because it can’t take place for at least seven years—plenty of time to delay witnessing, getting right with the Lord and holy living until later. In fact, the Lord said that believing he couldn’t come at any moment would have the opposite effect from purifying believers: “If that servant say in his heart, My lord delayeth his coming; and shall begin to beat the menservants...and to eat and drink and to be drunken; the lord of that servant will come at an hour when he is not aware (Mat:24:48-49 [48] But and if that evil servant shall say in his heart, My lord delayeth his coming;
[49] And shall begin to smite his fellowservants, and to eat and drink with the drunken;
; Lk 12:45, 46).

10) The Rapture is not only an event that we are to expect momentarily and to eagerly anticipate, but we are to ask our Lord to come immediately. Here is how the Bible ends: “And the Spirit and the bride say, Come....Surely I come quickly. Amen. Even so, come, Lord Jesus” (Rev:22:17And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely., 20).

In contrast, the Second Coming is not of such a nature and timing that we could ask Christ to effect it right now. Since Christ obviously cannot return to the earth in judgment to rescue Israel, stop the destruction at Armageddon and destroy the Antichrist along with his kingdom and his armies until the end of the Tribulation, for us to cry out to Christ, “Come, Lord Jesus!” would be like demanding payment on a debt that isn’t due for seven years. Yet, “the Spirit and the bride” do cry out, “Come, Lord Jesus.” We can only conclude that there must be a coming of Christ that could occur at any moment. It cannot be the Second Coming or a post-trib rapture. It can only be a pre-trib rapture.

11) There are at least two events which occur in heaven for which the church must be present and which, therefore, cannot take place until the Rapture occurs: the judgment seat of Christ, and the marriage of the Lamb to His bride: “for we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ” (Rom:14:10But why dost thou judge thy brother? or why dost thou set at nought thy brother? for we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ.); “For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad” (2 Cor:5:10For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.); “the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready. And to her was granted [to] be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white [as a result of her cleansing at the judgment seat of Christ]” (Rev:19:7-8 [7] Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready.
[8] And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints.
). Both these events occur prior to Christ’s return to earth and thus demand a prior rapture.

It is clear that the Second Coming cannot occur until these two vital events, which demand the presence of the church in heaven, have taken place. It is only after the Lamb has been married to His bride that she accompanies Him back to earth to rescue Israel and to destroy Antichrist and his armies: “And the armies which were in heaven followed him...clothed in fine linen, white and clean” (Rev:19:14And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.).

We know not why the Bridegroom tarries, but exactly as He foretold, the church is asleep. In that context, our Lord added: “And at midnight there was a cry made, Behold the bridegroom cometh; go ye out to meet him” (Mat:25:6And at midnight there was a cry made, Behold, the bridegroom cometh; go ye out to meet him.). May each of us be listening eagerly for that cry of the Holy Spirit in our hearts. Indeed, we ought to be sounding it aloud, for the Lord could come at any moment to take us to Himself. So let us watch and wait and look for Him in eager anticipation—and encourage others to do the same. It will have a purifying and motivating effect in our lives. TBC

On a motorcycle forum I used to read, every now and then a new poster would ask a question about motor oil or tires. The groans could be heard from coast to coast.

One guy always blessed the thread with the little looped video of a guy beating a dead horse...

For me, the Matthew passages where Jesus describes the end times are sufficient, both terrifying and filled with hope. Consistent in His words are that the wicked will be judged and removed as the first step in closing the current human program. Bloody mess not withstanding.

And another note, which I would submit at no extra charge, is a look at those famous words of the Savior, "that where I am, ye might be also."

In my opinion, he is not talking real estate here but rather His position of being the full and complete image of the Father. His mission of bringing many sons to glory will be complete when the many sons stand before the Father with all the splendor of the Firstborn. It will be His immense pleasure to make that presentation, and our supreme joy to be in that company.

Do we care where this actually takes place?

Thanks Narrowpath for your contribution!

I appreciate the articles brother and the great attitude! Your love for God and his people is clearly shown!

Blessings...from brother rbanks

Thanks Greg

Yes, one can discuss the pre-trib/post-trib rapture until the cows come home and still not arrive at an understanding in which all will agree. But there is one observation shared by Corrie ten Boom that I will never forget because what she saw back before WW2 is what is true today - or, at least it appears to be so.

Corrie ten Boom said how the Dutch were taught the pre-trib rapture, believing they will not suffer persecution, that Jesus will rapture the church and they will be spared. Well - surprise! Jesus did not bow to their wishes. She said when the Nazi's took over her country the [Christian] people were totally unprepared and they fell. (I do not know if she said this in her writings but do remember hearing her say this in a talk she gave in Memphis, TN many moons ago.)

We do not know when Jesus will return, but we do know we can rightly expect persecution and whether it will be the 'tribulation' - as spoken of in Revelation - or not will make no difference. Under persecution people will suffer drastically and many will die. But even without persecution people still die because we all the promise of dying someday and when that moment comes we need to be ready. To prepare for this event means one must live life to the full, being yoked up with Jesus each and every moment. If suffering comes He will be there with us.

God bless.

Hi sister Ginnyrose,

I think that the lesson learned from sister Corrie ten Boom's anecdote is not that the teaching itself is dangerous but that the failure by pastors to encourage endurance through persecution is dangerous.

After all, there is a difference between historic "persecution" and "tribulation" of saints and the period prophesied that is known as the "Great Tribulation" (or period of "Wrath").

Jesus told us that we would have persecution in this world. We should be prepared to endure through it by maintaining our faith in Christ Jesus. Any pastor, teacher or minister who fails to explain this is doing a great disservice.

Believers have suffered for Christ since the beginning. It is a privilege to do so. After all, we will all die at some point during this little period of time called "life." We aren't even promised "tomorrow." What an honor to spend that life -- and lose one's life -- for the One who gave us life!

Suffering, persecution and tribulation should be expected by believers. Believers have endured terrible persecution -- and many were never delivered from it (physically speaking). Hebrews chapter 11 details this.

However, the period referred to as the "Tribulation" isn't the same as historic suffering, persecution or tribulation. It is a period in which Satan acts because he knows that his time is short and, more importantly, God pours out His own wrath that has been "stored up."

The question is whether or not believers will suffer that wrath.

Like others, I am not totally convinced on either side of the debate. I do lean toward a gathering of the Bride before the Wrath of God is poured out. God has never poured out His wrath on those who belong to Him. Revelation 3 says that God would protects us FROM (rather than DURING) that hour of tribulation.

Still, there is a good argument that believers who came to Christ before that period would remain on Earth during that time. Even if this is true, I do believe that they would be spared from the wrath of God as it is poured out upon the entire earth.

Therefore, I think that it is good to understand all sides of the issue. I think that pastors should not declare an ultimate "truth" on such an issue but should make known possible alternative ideas about how it could happen. I would also expect that a good pastor should encourage the flock to be prepared to suffer for the cause of Christ no matter what.

For me, the key is to be PREPARED.

A believer that is prepared for any type of tribulation and suffering can endure through persecution, sickness, hunger, thirst, prison and anything that they must face in this world. The preparation is to always seek God's face. The world can crumble around us, but if we and our house keeps our eyes on Jesus, what else matters?

I am a pre-trib believer who could be a post-trib believer.

At this present time I am watching and waiting for The Lord to come and the "great tribulation" has not yet arrived but if it does come in my lifetime and The Lord has not caught me up in the rapture then I will be a post-trib believer who believes that He has delivered me from the wrath to come.

Blessings...from brother rbanks

I agree. I pray we all will be ready. If we are faithful and take seriously so much of the warnings like in Luke 21:36.

I don't mean to get into any arguments/debates but i have a single question on Eschatology. I am Post-Trib/Pre-Wrath. I believe we will go thru the trib period. I actually consider that 'Satan's Wrath'. After that is thru, we are taken up into the clouds (LastTrump). Then while we are with the Lord, God's Wrath is poured out on earth (Hence AfterTrib but BeforeWrath).

Is this the common view held among PostTrib or do most believe you go thru both 'Satan's Wrath and God's Wrath'? I have not studied this in a while and all the various views. Bottomline, let's be ready and continue building the body and making disciples.

////or do most believe you go thru both 'Satan's Wrath and God's Wrath'?////

Gods wrath was poured out on egypt while Gods people where their, but that wrath did not effect Gods people.

Satan's wrath will come by means of persecution on to the Believers whom refuse the mark.

Revelation 6:11
And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.

Revelation 7:9
After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;

Revelation 7:13
And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they?

Revelation 7:14
And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

Quote I am a pre-trib believer who could be a post-trib believer.

For me it’s always been easy as when God called me, he told me that he was going to raise me up for the last days.

Quote: For me, the key is to be PREPARED

He told me that what he was going to through is that he was going to prepare the church to confront the anti-christ.

I don’t talk about my calling a lot but I thought to share this small part of it to give some help to those who are swayed with what to believe and encouragement, that God’s got a plan.

In the mean time we should humble ourselves before God and let him make us strong, let him make us disciplined and let him make us holy.

Hi Bearmaster
--Such a view is not taught to believers in N. Korea or Eritrea. Indeed the persecuted would say they are in tribulation.----

This is exactly what i have been saying the subject with most people on SI are hung up on is persecution not tribulation.They refuse to see the wood from the trees.You can be a pre trib believer and be persecuted and expect persecution.

Point 2-
The use of "tribulation" in that sentence is a misnomer as you and I know quite well we are talking about a future period of time that is 7 years of duration called "the great tribulation(at least 3.5yrs anyway).
If believers in North Korea or Eritrea believe they are in the great tribulation then they I'm sorry but they dont know what the bible says about the end times.As we are clearly not.
Also whether believers any where are in persecution right now has no relevance to whether the rapture happens before or after the great tribulation.It just proves that Christ was right in what he said that Christians would suffer for his name sake
Point 3
there are many many problems with the western Church and they are nothing to do with a pre trib rapture.
yours Staff

staff wrote ///there are many many problems with the western Church and they are nothing to do with a pre trib rapture.///

From my study which is limited, to me their seems to be a direct correlation with premillennialism pretribulation rapture eschatology and Dispensationalism.

Proudpapa,
SO?
staff

staff wrote ///SO?///

I am not so sure that we all would agree that this Darby through Scofield Dispensational system of interpetating Scripture has not effected the western Church in a negative way.

The Dispensationalist calls it "rightly dividing the word of truth"

but having spent some time myself in the past of holding to this view,

I am not so sure as of now, that I totally agree with it as being the way of "rightly dividing the word of truth"

Hi Just in,
Whether the only thing that can be used when it comes to doctrine is the word of god not someones reality!The word of god is the only authority.They cannot use experential doctrine.Using experience rather than the word is the only thing that should be ridiculed.
The reality is they are going through tribulation now that may be great in its nature but they are not going through the "great tribulation" which is a period of time in the future set aside by God.
Any teaching that says they are in that 7 year period now is incorrect.Unfortunately we have people so married to persecution,tribulation on SI that they are delibrately greying the difference between the term tribulation and the period of time "the great tribulation"to advance their point of view.
I can fault them if they dont Know the difference between tribulation and great tribulation and I can fault them if they dont realize you can go through tribulation whether you believe in Pre or Post rapture,
Yours Staff

Hi
Just in,
I dont think we will be raptured before the 7 year period but also I think the people who say pre trib view comes from darby schofield and use this as the basis to defunct it are wrong,staff

staff wrote : ///....I think the people who say pre trib view comes from darby schofield and use this as the basis to defunct it are wrong,staff///

I would be open to a refutal of that understanding.

If they are wrong than it should be easy for you to find several
writings from Christians before Darby that taught the pretrib view ?

Hi Bear,
Again nowhere in the bible does it say all believers
will go through severe life threatening persecution and it must be clear that we are not now at this time in the great tribulation.
Yours Staff

Hello,

I think that view is not taught in persecuted countries because their reality proves the view is false and ridiculous. They are going through Great Tribulation, NOW! So, you cannot fault them for thinking the pre-trib view is laughable, thought no one is probably laughing.

Does anyone have something upon which this is based? Particularly, does anyone have evidence that the Church in those areas (e.g., North Korea) doesn't believe in a pre-tribulation -- or "pre-wrath" -- gathering of the Bride of Christ? I have known missionaries who travel in China, Cuba, Iraq, India and certain countries where believers are severely persecuted and yet they embrace the notion of a "rapture."

I have traveled to the remote Tarahumara tribes of the Sierra Madre Occidental -- where there aren't any televisions, radios, Christian book stores, Tarahumara books or even roads. Most Tarahumara do not even speak Spanish. Some of those Tarahumara that I have met believe that Christ would "gather" believers before God pours out His wrath upon the Earth. Many Tarahumara believers know suffering and persecution. They also seem to understand the difference between such tribulation, persecution and suffering and that horrific period in prophecy.

Now, it is possible that one of the few missionaries that work in that area instructed them with such doctrinal views. However, it is also possible that they arrived to such a view on their own.

I would urge the brethren to be careful about making claims if we aren't sure of them. We should test them if we feel inclined to do so. We shouldn't simply repeat what we have heard or even read unless we have tested it. After all, we have had many conversations about eschatology in the past. In the course of those debates and conversations, people have shown evidence that the idea of a "rapture" prior to the time of God's wrath didn't begin with Darby or Scofield (or some little girl who had a dream).

There is evidence of early Church belief in a "catching away" prior to Wrath by early believers like Ephraem the Syrian (C. 361 A.D.), Clement of Rome (First Century), the Shepherd of Hermas (late First, early Second Century) and Victorinus of Pettau (C. 300 A.D.).

I really think that we should be careful about what we preach on this and how we do it. Such matters should never divide the Body of Christ. We can take comfort in God's promises no matter how the end will come. If we are gathered by Christ prior to the Wrath of God being poured out upon the Earth, so be it. If we're not, we still trust in God. We must be ready and willing to suffer persecution, tribulation and all sorts of trials for His Name.

I think that it is fitting and helpful to know all of the possible scenarios about how events will transpire in regard to eschatology and End-Times prophecy. I do think that we must be careful about taking an absolute position on such matters. I also think that we should allow God's grace to work in those who may have a different view or may not have settled on a position. After all, we aren't even guaranteed to live until the end.

Many believers have died while waiting for the Lord's return. Many have been killed. Early believers faced enormous amounts of tribulation in history -- even being sawed in half -- but they kept the faith during such periods. We should live our lives as though we are ready to depart at any moment -- regardless how that departure will come.

The Lord bless you all.

John Darby (1800-1882)
by Floyd Elmore

Life and Writings

Early leader among the Plymouth Brethren and developer of dispensational premillennialism, John Darby (1800-1882) invested his life in strengthening the saints as they gathered simply "to His name" and awaited their Lord's any-moment return. Born in London of wealthy Irish parents, Darby received his middle name from Admiral Lord Nelson. Upon returning to Ireland in 1815, he entered Trinity College, Dublin, graduating in 1819 as a classical gold medalist. Although called to the Irish Chancery Bar in 1822, he gave up a career in law after only one year to enter religious ministry. After a prolonged spiritual struggle leading to his conversion, Darby was ordained as a deacon in 1825 and as a priest in the Church of England in 1826. He had an unusually fruitful evangelistic ministry among Catholics in his parish of County Wicklow, Ireland.

From 1827 to 1833, Darby's ecclesiology and eschatology were formed. Disenchanted with the state-church religion, Darby addressed in his earliest writing the heavenly nature of the church and the need for it to be unencumbered with earthly things. He soon discovered a group of like-minded people meeting in Dublin for Bible study, worship,

and breaking of bread without ecclesiastical ritual and hierarchy. By 1831, he had left the church of England and joined others in Plymouth, England, who were opposed to denominationalism, one-man ministry, and church formalism. From this time on,

Darby's life would be inextricable from the influential Plymouth Brethren movement. The Powerscourt Conferences from 1831-33 would provide the context in which Darby's eschatology would be aligned consistently with his ecclesiology. Afterward his innovations in both fields of theology would be widely accepted throughout the Brethren movement, yielding a new perspective and interpretation of Scripture that would be known as dispensationalism.

Darby traveled, taught, and wrote extensively from 1832 to 1845. He worked in Switzerland and France from 1838 to 1845, and soon afterward began to write in French what would be called in the English translation his Synopsis of the Books of the Bible. He did not finish these five volumes until 1865. His chief aim was to give the reader a guide to clearly apprehend the difference between the church called to heavenly places and the governments of this world with which the Jews playa central role in God's ways. Darby skillfully explained the "argument" of each book by showing how various sections of them relate to the main point. His sense for the historical and developmental dimensions of "biblical theology" stands out in his Synopsis.

In 1845, the Great Schism over B. W. Newton's differing views concerning the "secret rapture" and his supposed lapse into clericalism brought tremendous dissension among the Brethren assemblies. Combined with the Bethesda Question (in 1848, George Muller and Darby disagreed as to the interrelationship of assemblies over matters of discipline), the Schism would leave the Brethren from this time forward divided into Exclusive and Open Brethren.

Darby would remain the dominant voice among the Exclusives for the next 30 years. During this time, both groups would be deeply involved in missions, although the Exclusives seemed to be more occupied with truth for the believer while the Opens were given to evangelizing the lost. Between 1853 and the time of his death, Darby himself would make at least three trips to Germany, spend considerable time in France, visit Italy, New Zealand, and the West Indies. He preached fluently in both French and German. During one span of time (1859-74), he made seven visits to Canada and the U.S.A. Amid his extensive teaching tours, he found time to translate the New Testament into English, French, and German, and he assisted in translating the Old Testament into both French and German.

The Letters of J. N. Darby comprise three large volumes addressing a wide range of topics. Most of his papers and articles are gathered in thirty-four volumes of The Collected Works of J. N. Darby, edited by his longtime associate and friend William Kelly. In general, Collected Works is organized chronologically within a volume, and thematically from volume to volume. Subject headings include "Ecclesiastical" (vols. 1, 4, 14,20), "Prophetic" (vols. 2, 5, 8, 11), "Doctrinal" (vols. 3,7,10,15,18,22,23,29,31), "Apologetic" (vols. 6, 9), "Evangelical" (vols. 12, 21), "Critical" (vol. 13), "Practical" (vols. 16, 17), "Expository" (vols. 19, 24-28,30), and "Miscellaneous" (vols. 32¬34). An excellent general index volume aids in researching topics not only throughout Darby's Letters and Collected Works, but also throughout the two volumes of Miscellaneous Writings of J. N. Darby (actually vols. 4 and 5 of his miscellaneous writings since vols. 1-3 are the last three volumes of the Collected Works), seven volumes of Notes and Comments on Scripture, and Notes and Jottings from Various Meetings with 1. N. Darby. The last volume seems to be nuggets preserved by students and listeners. A small volume of poetry, meditations, and hymns entitled Spiritual Songs and Darby's Synopsis of the Books of the Bible are not included in the index.

Eschatology

Acknowledged father of modem dispensational premillennialism, Darby is remembered especially for his recalling the church to expectancy for its rapture at the return of the Lord before Daniel's Seventieth Week. To a large degree, his eschatology flows out of his ecclesiology, which underwent radical change between 1827 and 1831. To understand this change, Darby's background at Trinity College, Dublin, and the state of the Anglican church at that time must be seen.

While at Trinity College, Darby came under the influence of theologians like Regius Professor Richard Graves who was an advocate for the Jewish people in the British empire. Graves, a postmillennialist, believed that through the conversion of Israel and their return to their ancient homeland, the millennial era would be ushered in. A Gentile "parenthesis" had existed since the rejection of Jesus as Messiah by Israel. Old Testament promises to Abraham and his seed concerning their homeland, however, were unconditional. Prophesied blessings on the Jewish people could be fulfilled soon by zealous missionary activity among them. Darby took into the ministry this respect for the Old Testament vision of a future for national Israel.

As a young parish priest, Darby became disillusioned with the state-church system which took advantage of governmental sanction. His belief that the church as the body of Christ was to be a heavenly people and not court earthly favors was formulated by 1827. During the same year, an accidental fall from his horse forced him into a lengthy convalescence and gave him much time alone with God and His word. Isaiah 32 convinced him that there was to be a future economy in which Israel would enjoy earthly blessings, not at all like the present heavenly blessings he was conscious of because of his union with Christ. Dispensational distinctives were taking shape in his thinking.

The Powerscourt Conferences of 1831 to 1833 most probably moved Darby from his earlier historicist premillennialism to futurist premillennialism. The transition from the present church dispensation to the millennial kingdom in which Israel had center stage under Christ's rule was supplied by seeing Daniel's Seventieth Week as yet future. Before that time the church would be raptured to heavenly glory, while during that time God would bring into existence a remnant of Israel who would experience deliverance from their enemies at the return of Christ to the earth. By his own testimony, Darby's dispensational premillennial eschatology was fully formed by 1833.

For Darby, a dispensation is an economy, any order of things that God has arranged on the earth. The primary characteristics of a dispensation include governmental administration, responsibility, and revelation to fulfill both. Secondary characteristics include testing, failure, and judgment. When a group fails the test to exercise their responsibility given to them by God, judgment falls and ends the dispensation. Given these parameters, Darby saw three "worlds" or ages: from Adam until Noah's flood, from Noah until the renovation of the heavens and earth by fire at the end of the millennium, and the eternal state. Properly speaking, Darby did not think that any dispensations existed in the first world. God just left the race to itself. Also the eternal state is not a dispensation. Thus only from Noah through the millennium could dispensations be distinguished. Darby traced eight dispensations as follows: (1) Noah, (2) Abraham, (3) Israel under law (prophet), (4) Israel under the priesthood, (5) Israel under the kings, (6) Gentiles (from Nebuchadnezzar to the Antichrist), (7) church or Christian (although he hesitates to call the church in its heavenly perspective a dispensation), and (8) Millennium or kingdom.

Darby's order of end-time events may be grouped as follows: (1) the rapture and first resurrection, (2) postrapture events in heaven, (3) postrapture events on earth, (4) the millennial kingdom, (5) postmillennial events, and (6) the eternal state.

1. The Rapture occurs before the final time of trial to come upon the earth. The church must already be with Christ in heaven to be able to appear with Him at His glorious return. Darby hesitated to call the Rapture secret, although he believed the time of its occurrence was unknown, yet possible at any moment. The first resurrection of the just coincides with the Rapture. Thus all those who have died in faith from both the Old Testament and New Testament eras will be raptured with the living church saints. Although all who have a resurrection body will be related in some way to the New Jerusalem, Darby called only the church the bride so as to give it the chief position among those glorified.

2. After the Rapture, several things transpire in heaven. First, Satan is cast out of heaven to the earth. Then the saints will experience the judgment seat of Christ in preparation for the marriage of the Lamb. The latter event will take place after the judgment I of Babylon. I

3. Events on earth after the Rapture relate to Daniel's Seventieth Week. At times Darby spoke of this seven-year period as entirely future, but at other times as only three and one-half years remaining for the future (the first three and one-half years being the earthly ministry of Christ). Some future time of trial was necessary after the Rapture to prepare a Jewish remnant that would be delivered by Messiah's personal return to the earth. During that time, the Beast would arise as the secular head of evil imperial government, and the False Prophet would arise as the Antichrist, the spiritual head of evil religious energy. The Day of the Lord is at the appearing of Christ at the end of the Tribulation period. Armageddon ends the Beast's and Antichrist's power, and Satan himself will be bound soon after. Next the land of Israel is cleansed. Then the judgment of the living on earth takes place to determine who among them will enter the millennial kingdom. After a short time of peace and security in their land, Israel will be attacked by Gog (= Russia) whom the Lord utterly destroys.

4. In the millennial kingdom, the land promises given to Abraham will be fulfilled for a restored Israel. Messiah delivers the remnant, which becomes the blessed nation by destroying all its enemies. Afterward Israel will occupy the chief place among the nations on earth in Messiah's kingdom, just as the church as the bride of Christ will occupy the chief place among those resurrected in the New Jerusalem.

5. Events after the Millennium include the final revolt of Satan, the second resurrection, and the Great White Throne judgment of the unbelieving dead. Darby believed in the eternal conscious punishment of the lost in the lake of fire.

6. The eternal state will bring an end to Israel's special position above the nations of the millennial kingdom. But there will eternally be a distinction between the church and the earthly people in its eternal state format. "The tabernacle of God" (for Darby, meaning the church in Rev. 21:2-3) would be "with men" (the earth inhabiters without national distinction). Thus the church will have special distinction in eternity since "to Him be glory in the church throughout all ages" (Eph. 3:21) refers to a relationship that persists forever. Two peoples of God, an earthly and a heavenly, will be eternally distinct simply because saved humans in natural bodies will be distinguished from the saved who have resurrection bodies in the eternal state.

http://scofieldprophecystudies.org/scholars/Darby.htm

RE: ////There is evidence of early Church belief in a "catching away" prior to Wrath by early believers like Ephraem the Syrian (C. 361 A.D.), Clement of Rome (First Century), the Shepherd of Hermas (late First, early Second Century) and Victorinus of Pettau (C. 300 A.D.).////

I am researching the statements of the above mentioned and what I am finding seems like a few selected statements offered without their context, and being Propagandad as possible evidence that they believed something that may have resembled a teaching of a pre-trib rapture doctrine.

I think we need to becarefull even skeptical when the evidence offered is so ambiguous.

Papias (60-130) Clement of Rome (90-100) The Sherpherd of Hermas (96-150)
Ignatius of Antioch (98-117) Barnabas (100) The Didache (100-160) Justin Martyr (110-165) The Epistle of Barnabas (117-138) Irenaeus (120-202) Tertullian (145-220 Hippolytus (185-236) Cyprian (200-250) Lactantius (260-330)

seemed to believe on a doctrine of Christ's soon return within a premillennial framework, but it appears from my research as of so far, that they most likely believed in a post trib rapture, what is referred to as post-tribulational premillennialism

As I see it, all here will agree the Believers will experience persecution/tribulation in the end times.

The most dangerous end-time teachings I have encountered is promoted by amillennialists. They believe man can usher in the a peaceable society through political means, and humanitarian works. While Believers are called to be peaceable we all know this cannot be accomplish globally through coercion, political means or humanitarian works.

Ginnyrose wrote,

"The most dangerous end-time teachings I have encountered is promoted by amillennialists. They believe man can usher in the a peaceable society through political means, and humanitarian works."

Ginnyrose, would you please furnish those of us on this forum with your source for the above statement you have made.

thanks

RE: ////Ginnyrose, would you please furnish those of us on this forum with your source for the above statement you have made.////

I think she may have meant post-millennialism.

It is easy to confuse all the post, pre, a, millennials and post, pre etc tribs, I easly get confused with them myself.

Hi bearmaster,

Chris the persecuted believers in places like N. Korea do not deny the idea of a gathering of saints when Christ returns. The idea if a Pretrib rapture is foreign to them as the persecuted hold to a theology of shffering.

Ny source is the Voice if the Martyrs.

I have been subscribing to Voice of the Martyrs for years and I haven't seen anything that tells me that there are no believers in North Korea who believe that Christ will gather His Bride prior to the period of God's wrath coming upon the Earth.

Perhaps we shouldn't speak in generalities about something like this. As I pointed out, I have seen remote Tarahumara -- with no access to the Westernized Christian world -- who believe that Jesus will gather the Church prior to God pouring out His wrath. However, I cannot generalize ALL of the Tarahumara as believing such a thing.

I have never been to some of these "closed" nations where persecution and extreme tribulation exists on a daily basis. However, I do know missionaries who either live there now or have ministered in such nations. Right or wrong, they embraced and taught about the "rapture" too.

I do think that those who embrace a belief in a "rapture" might often get incorrectly accused of adhering to "easy believism," the "prosperity" gospel or some notion that they don't believe that believers can and will face suffering, persecution and tribulation in this life. They simply make a distinction between such earthly tribulation at the hands of evil men and the period of almost unimaginable tribulation that will have Satan working because he knows that his time is short and, much more importantly, God pouring out the Wrath that He has stored up.

It is possible to for some believers to believe in (or lean toward such a belief) of a gathering of the Bride by Christ prior to the various judgments of God's wrath and yet still understand that believers can, do and will face all sorts of tribulations in this world.

A believer can embrace a "theology of suffering" yet still embrace a notion that Christ might gather the Bride before God's wrath is poured out upon the entire world.

Hi proudpapa,

I am researching the statements of the above mentioned and what I am finding seems like a few selected statements offered without their context, and being Propagandad as possible evidence that they believed something that may have resembled a teaching of a pre-trib rapture doctrine.

I think we need to becarefull even skeptical when the evidence offered is so ambiguous.

I certainly welcome scrutiny in this. In fact, that is my point. It will take believers to read up on what those early Christians -- and many others -- wrote before we state emphatically that the idea of a "gathering up of the saints before the wrath of God" originated with Darby, Scofield or a little girl who had a dream.

The names that I dropped are just a few who wrote some very specific comments that indicate the notion of a "catching away" prior to the period of great tribulation comes upon the entire world. However, there are other names too who wrote similar sentiments. Some of their writings can be found online, in books or even in university libraries.

Now, there will definitely be a dark period between Early Christian writings and the reformation. That period is where the pagan Roman cult attempted to control doctrine and belief and persecuted the true Church. More importantly, the Word of God was scarcely available. Rome didn't make it available to the common men (or in the language of those men). It would have been difficult for such doctrines to have been widely discussed simply by the lack of Bibles in the world and the persecution from pagan Rome. Consequently, we have little writing from "the dark ages" of non-Roman Christianity.

So, we have to examine early Church teaching and then later teaching. This is also difficult. It can be taxing to separate or compare generalizations made from learning sectarian and denominational doctrinal beliefs or fractures with the sentiment of all true believers.

Certain statements from Ephraim the Syrian are often quoted because they seem to speak directly to this. For instance, he wrote, "For all the saints and Elect of God are gathered, prior to the tribulation that is to come, and are taken to the Lord lest they see the confusion that is to overwhelm the world because of our sins" (from "On the Last Times, the Antichrist, and the End of the World" in C. 373 A.D.). He wrote other statements with similar sentiments.

The point that I am not making is not that the notion of the "rapture" was widespread prior to the 19th Century. I am simply pointing out that it might be disingenuous for a claim to be made that a "gathering of the saints before the great tribulation" was invented in the 19th Century by Darby, Scofield or some little girl's dream. Not only is there evidence to research and consider about early Christians who may have believed and written such a belief, but there is also evidence of believers writing such things just a few decades before Darby and Scofield.

I would also be so bold as to say that a relatively quiet mention of such a "catching away" -- or eschatology in general -- in Christian teaching doesn't necessarily preclude it from being true. When the Protestant Reformation took place, Rome initially tried to discredit the movement as "corrupting the Gospel" (how ironic).

You have to wonder how many Leonard Ravenhills or Paris Reidheads were running around with passionate calls for repentance in the year 1200 A.D. too. I have no doubt that such men of God with the truth existed during the Dark Ages; however, we may never learn of who they were, what they preached, where they lived or how they died until we reach the other side of eternity. Just because we don't have much of a record of it doesn't mean that there wasn't one (or that a particular doctrinal teaching wasn't embraced).

Some time back, I did some research in this. I remember citing specific passages and verses from Ephraim the Syrian. I think that I cited a few others as well. If I can't find them, I will try to research them again. I will post them here if or when I find them.

The Lord bless you!

Hi just-in,

God is called a very present help in trouble precisely because we don't know how to be prepared. No one knows what is going to happen tomorrow and tests are called tests because we don't know how to prepare. They wouldn't be "tests" if we were prepared for every eventuality.

God brings tests in your life (turns the fire up) to purge you of dross. If you want to be prepared in some way, be prepared to yield to the Holy Spirit and not lean on the arm of the flesh.

Very true! I would venture to say that there is no greater way to "not lean on the arm of the flesh" than to desperately seek God's face daily. On a personal note, when my world seems to come crashing down around me, I immediately turn to God. It is the spiritual instinct of a Christian, I suppose.

This is what I meant about being "prepared."

hi Giinnyrose,
As I see it, all here will agree the Believers will experience persecution/tribulation in the end times.

I disagree with that statement.It is not clear at all that we all will have tribulation in the end times as it pertains to the 7 year period which is what the rapture is all about.

Hi General,
I notice though again that people on SI cannot talk about the rapture without talking about persecution because if you believe in Post trib rapture you have to believe in persecution.
if you cant separate Persecution into an area that has nothing to do with the rapture then if you believe in persecution you will then believe in a post rapture.
What if you are wrong in that belief??Then you would be ramming persecution down our throats for years and causing major upset for nothing.
Persecution/tribulations are a separate subject in a way from "The great tribulation" which is a 3.5year period in the second half of a 7 year period.
Yours Staff

ccchhhrrriiisss wrote /// It will take believers to read up on what those early Christians -- and many others -- wrote before we state emphatically that the idea of a "gathering up of the saints before the wrath of God" originated with Darby, Scofield or a little girl who had a dream.///

I did not mention and am not aware of anyone mentioning in this thread "little girl who had a dream." That view may very well be speculative conspiracy.

Lets becareful as not to pollute the truth or cause a misconstrued impression by sterotyping the position! (I did not and am not aware that any other poster brought up Margaret MacDonald.)

This is what I wrote : PP wrote : /I am not so sure that we all would agree that this Darby through Scofield Dispensational system of interpetating Scripture has not effected the western Church in a negative way./

The systematic developer of dispensational premillennialism, indeed was John Darby and indeed became widespread through Scofield, I am not aware of anyone whom questions that view!

was their anyone whom in all of history that may have believed in some kind of pretrib rapture ?, I suppose it is indeed possable , but as you should be able to agree, their is no evidence that it was widespread, nor systematic.

The systematic developer of the dispensational premillennialism as what we see today, we should both be able to agree was John Darby

Dispensational system of interpetating Scripture goes far beyound premillennialism and pretrib, It goes into how we interput the writings of Jesus and which ones are applicable for us , It goes into how we interput the Kingdom and Kingdoms and what they are reffering to.

hyper Dispensationalist (Whom call themselves Grace Believers) will actually go so far as to divide the Scripture into such Dispensational divides, as to say that us whom are Gentile Believers, are only under the Writings of Paul, whom they say is our apostle (apostle to the Gentiles), They elliminate all of the Gospels, Peter, Acts, Revelations and even Hebrews and claim them to only be applicable for the Jew. men like Jerry Sanders, Percy Peters etc. teach this.

I often times, even on these forums will see men use some sort of dispensational argument to explain away those verses of Jesus that would appear to conflict with their view of eternal security or osas doctrine, and with these sort of systematic ways of dividing the scripture is why I wrote : /I am not so sure that we all would agree that this Darby through Scofield Dispensational system of interpetating Scripture has not effected the western Church in a negative way./

////I disagree with that statement.It is not clear at all that we all will have tribulation in the end times as it pertains to the 7 year period which is what the rapture is all about.////

Ginnyrose did not say anything about 7 years, She said "end times" her statement is biblical

Mathew ch 24
9 Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake.
10 And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another.
11 And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many.
12 And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold.
13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.

Revelation 6:9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:

10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?

11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.

Revelation 7:9
After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;

Revelation 7:13
And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they?

Revelation 7:14
And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

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QUOTE:
"Ginnyrose, would you please furnish those of us on this forum with your source for the above statement you have made."
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Sure.

I became aware of this philosophy many years ago when visiting with an older lady who was giving seminars at a ladies retreat. She was a liberal Mennonite - do I need to say any more, or are you still in the dark? This encounter awakened me to the reality of a doctrine unknown to me heretofore but encountered since in conversations with other liberal Mennonites.

Liberal Mennonites are pacifists, and in the process believe Christians can usher in a peaceful world politically. Now, this is a general view with lots of variations. It would not surprise me if a liberal Mennonite would come on board and castigate me. Yet, this is the attitude of these people. They do not believe in a literal millennium in which Jesus will sit on the throne in Israel and rule. They also work at peacekeeping between warring nations with the USA rendering humanitarian aid to these governments. Is this wrong, or is it right? They work to make peace with enemies of the cross via political means - apart from the cross. This is the bottom line.

(Years ago "Christianity Today" published an article about VORP - Victims Offenders Reconciliation Program. I got very interested in this program so I called them and talked to them about it. They employed psychology in bringing about reconciliation between [criminal] offenders and their victims. The mediator was not to introduce the spiritual dimension at all. The victim could but not the mediator. If I recall she was Brethren.)

Liberal Mennonites are at the extreme end of amillennialism. The ones at the opposite end of this spectrum are very different. They do not believe in a literal thousand year reign either, do not believe in using political means to bring about world peace. Large variation.

Savannah, you asked a pointed question and I answered it to the best of my knowledge. I hope this will not distract from the ongoing discussion. The reality is there are people out there with weird and unBiblical views of the end-times.

Good thing God is not subject to operate according to man's philosophy; he would never return if he waited on a consensus from the people.

This will either answer your question or muddle your brain some more.

Wow, what a discussion!

Just a question for a ponder-

When Jesus gave the disciples instructions on how to pray, He said these famous words: "Thy kingdom come, Thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven."

The question is whether He was making a lovely wishful statement, or was He speaking a prophetic word for God's desire regarding the way the earth would one day be?

For me, I lean toward the latter.

Psalm 149 comes to mind, "...Let the high praises of God be in their mouths and a two edged sword be in their hand, to execute vengeance on the nations and punishments on the peoples, to bind their kings with chains and their nobles with fetters of iron, to execute on them the judgment written. This is an honor for all His godly ones."

Sounds to me like the place to be is right here, dealing with the crap and swinging that sword...? (I know- the Bible...)

Wow!

It is amazing how some Christians get bent all out of shape over different theological views.

Also:

Bearmaster are you under great distress on a daily basics? Are you being persecuted on a daily basic? Are you upset that people in the west are not being persecuted like some in other regions?

Jesus is building a glorious church and He only has one church. He doesn't have two churches where one is called the persecuted church and everybody else who are not going through certain kinds of persecution are a different class or less of a church.

Blessings...from brother rbanks