Indwelling of the Spirit in OT Saints

Recently my girlfriend and I got in a small debate about if the Spirit of God indwelled the Old Testament saints. Since she's doing a paper on this at Bible school, I put together a small informal paper/study of my own for some food to chew on regarding this topic. It shall be interesting to see what other Scriptures are produced.Though this is far from an exhaustive collection of Scriptures to show that the Spirit indwelled the Old Testament saints, I think it is sufficient. I shall quote from the NASB, and offer some comments unless I think the passage cited is more the abundantly clear enough and needs no exposition.Within the Prophets1 Peter 2:10 As to this salvation, the prophets who prophesied of the grace that would come to you made careful searches and inquiries, 11 seeking to know what person or time the Spirit of Christ within them was indicating as He predicted the sufferings of Christ and the glories to follow.Numbers 27:18 So the Lord said to Moses, “Take Joshua the son of Nun, a man in whom is the Spirit, and lay your hand on him;”Spiritual BirthDeuteronomy 10:16 So circumcise your heart, and stiffen your neck no longerDeuteronomy 30:6 Moreover the Lord your God will circumcise your heart and the heart of your descendants, to love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul, so that you may live.Romans 2:29 But he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is that which is of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the letter; and his praise is not from men, but from God.John 3:3 Jesus answered and said to him, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God.” … 9 Nicodemus said to Him, “How can these things be?” 10 Jesus answered and said to him, “Are you a teacher of Israel and do not understand these things?Moses called for Israel to have a circumcised heart. Of course, such cannot physically be done by any man. Rather, Moses showed just as Paul said, that such a inward circumcision is only possible through the Spirit of God. Abraham and his descendants were to circumcise the foreskins of the male children in order to serve as a sign of the covenant God established with Abraham. Outward circumcision was to serve an outward sign of an inward reality, much as water baptism does today for the Christian. Such inward circumcision could only be done and maintained by the indwelling of the Holy Spirit.Jesus was quite surprised that Nicodemus didn’t understand what it meant to be born of the Spirit of God. After all, Nicodemus was a teacher of Israel, and Jesus believes any teacher of Israel should surely understand this concept. Jesus speaking of being “born again” is the same concept of Moses speaking of the circumcision of the heart.The Temple as a Type1 Corinthians 3:16 Do you not know that you are a temple of God and that the Spirit of God dwells in you?Hebrews 8:1 Now the main point is what has been said is this: we have a high priest, who has taken His seat at the right hand of the throne of the Majesty in the heavens, 2 a minister in the sanctuary and in the true tabernacle, which the Lord pitched, not man. 3 For every high priest is appointed to offer both gifts and sacrifices; so it is necessary that this high priest also have something to offer. 4 Now if He were on earth, He would not be a priest at all, since there are those who offer the gifts according to the Law; 5 who serve as a copy and shadow of the heavenly things, just as Moses was warned by God when he was about to erect the tabernacle; for, “See,” He says, “that you make all things according to the pattern which was shown you on the mountain.”Paul and the author of Hebrews have an understanding of the Old Testament temple as serving as an earthly copy of what is in heaven. Hebrews author cites Exodus 25:40 where Moses is told to make the tabernacle according to what he literally saw to prove that the temple and its ceremonies served as copies of the heavenly realities. Since the Spirit of God indwells all believers, the temple is invoked as an image of this truth. Now, this truth is not simply a truth of the New Testament believer. The temple simply served as a copy of what was already a heavenly reality. The heavenly temple of which the earthly served as a copy shows the indwelling of the Spirit as an eternal truth, which can be applied to all generations, New and Old Testament alike.Not of this WorldHebrews 11:13 All these died in faith, without receiving the promises, but having seen them and having welcomed them from a distance, and having confessed that they were strangers and exiles on the earth… 16 But as it is, they desire a better country, that is, a heavenly one. Therefore God is not ashamed to be called their God; for He has prepared a city for them.Genesis 49:9 So Jacob said to Pharaoh, “The years of my sojourning are one hundred and thirty; few and unpleasant have been the years of my life, nor have they attained the years that my fathers lived during the days of their sojourning.”The patriarchs acknowledged that they were not of this world. They recognized their citizenship was a heavenly one. They realized they were simply passing through (sojourning) this world.Depending on God's SpiritEzekiel 36:24 For I will take you from the nations, gather you from all the lands and bring you into your own land. 25 Then I will sprinkle clean water on you, and you will be clean; I will cleanse you from all your filthiness and from all your idols. 26 Moreover, I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit within you; and I will remove the heart of stone from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh. 27 I will put My Spirit within you and cause you to walk in My statutes, and you will be careful to observe my ordinances. 28 You will live in the land that I gave to your forefathers; so you be My people, and I will be your God.Ezekiel is speaking to the exiles, promising them one day that they will come back from the nations that they were scattered to due to their rebellion. God promised that those who would return God would cause His Spirit to indwell so that they would have the ability to keep God’s commandments. Zechariah 4:6 Then he said to me, “This is the word of the Lord to Zerubbabel saying, ‘Not by might nor by power, but by My Spirit,’ says the Lord of Hosts.After the exiles returned to Israel, they began to work on rebuilding the temple, although there was a brief stoppage due to complacency and political pressures. God let Israel’s governor, Zerubbabel know that the temple work would begin again, and that it would be completed. He assured Zerubbabel that this work would not be done through political might and power, but rather, it would be accomplished by relying entirely upon the Spirit of God to accomplish the task. ConclusionThe consistent testimony of the Scriptures, both Old and New Testaments, that it is only by the indwelling Holy Spirit that men can live a life of faith and godliness. After all, how else but by the Spirit of God could you live such a life? All who have been born again, and born from above, have only done so by the Holy Spirit. It is only those who have been born of heaven that can testify that this world is not their home, and that their citizenship is of heaven, and that they are just merely sojourners in this world.

This seems to be suggesting that the OT saints were regenerated? If so then logically speaking Jesus Christ didn't have to die, they were already fully equipped for heaven if they were regenerated.Is God a deficit spender? Would he give out regeneration and complete restoration from the fall before the price was paid?Do I believe that OT saints weren't saved? No. But they were looking to God to supply all their need, they were looking to Messiah. They had no idea what he would look like or that he would come as a baby and grow and then die on a cross. I believe they were assured that God would supply all for them for their future state, but they didn't know the details.In Christ,Ron

It would seem to me that in the OT the Spirit came on those that were to be used but could not remain. John 1:33 And I knew him not: but he that sent me to baptize with water, the same said unto me, Upon whom thou shalt see the Spirit descending, and REMAINING ON HIM, the same is he which baptizeth with the Holy Ghost.The Holy Ghost could not dwell with and unclean unregenerated human spirit.Just my humble opinion.

InTheLight wrote:This seems to be suggesting that the OT saints were regenerated? If so then logically speaking Jesus Christ didn't have to die, they were already fully equipped for heaven if they were regenerated.Is God a deficit spender? Would he give out regeneration and complete restoration from the fall before the price was paid?Do I believe that OT saints weren't saved? No. But they were looking to God to supply all their need, they were looking to Messiah. They had no idea what he would look like or that he would come as a baby and grow and then die on a cross. I believe they were assured that God would supply all for them for their future state, but they didn't know the details.

If the Holy Spirit indwelt the old testiment saints... why was Jesus talking about the Comforter to come? What about the day of Pentecost? What was that all about? Ive always thought that the Holy Spirit just came upon them... but this should be a great study.

This seems to be suggesting that the OT saints were regenerated? If so then logically speaking Jesus Christ didn't have to die, they were already fully equipped for heaven if they were regenerated.Their regeneration that they enjoyed was secured by the work of Christ which was accomplished before the foundation of the world. 1 Cor 10:4 and all drank the same spiritual drink, for they were drinking from a spiritual rock which followed them; and the rock was ChristThe OT saints partook of the spiritual blessings Christ has provided. Btw... glad you are contributing to the discussion Ron. I thought of you when I was posting this on the forum :)

If the Holy Spirit indwelt the old testiment saints... why was Jesus talking about the Comforter to come? What about the day of Pentecost? What was that all about? Ive always thought that the Holy Spirit just came upon them... but this should be a great study.The outpouring prophesied of in Joel had yet to occur, that is what Jesus was anticipating. The pouring out of the Holy Spirit in Acts 2 was about equipping the entire community of believers with the gifts of the Spirit, whereas in the Old Testament times, a few prophets here and there were used in great ways, or a few leaders such as kings and judges were given the Spirit in regards to ministry. That is not to say though, that every person who geniunely placed faith in God did not have the indwelling of the Spirit, they didn't just have the Spirit come upon them in the fashion of the selected few.

Their regeneration that they enjoyed was secured by the work of Christ which was accomplished before the foundation of the world. 1 Cor 10:4 and all drank the same spiritual drink, for they were drinking from a spiritual rock which followed them; and the rock was ChristThe OT saints partook of the spiritual blessings Christ has provided.There is nothing in the Old Testament or the New that suggests that Old Testament saints were regenerated. It is strictly an assumption to say they were regenerated, based on nothing in the Word.If the OT saints took part of the spiritual blessings of Christ; 1)Why didn't they have the benefits of the fruit of the Holy Spirit? 2)Why didn't they have the baptism of the Holy Spirit? 3)Why weren't they sealed by the Holy Spirit?4)Why did Old Testament saints go through a priest but New Testament saints are all priests?There are many more questions that could be asked. These questions are not related directly to regeneration, but they are directly related to the fact that there were some major shifts after the cross - these shifts were due to the work of Christ - they were not possible before that work was finished.In Christ,Ron

Jimmyanother reference in support of your position might be the reference to Bezaleel;And the LORD spake unto Moses, saying, See, I have called by name Bezaleel the son of Uri, the son of Hur, of the tribe of Judah: And I have filled him with the spirit of God, in wisdom, and in understanding, and in knowledge, and in all manner of workmanship, (Exo 31:1-3 KJV)In fact, this is the earliest reference as far as I can see and that itself may be significant. The 'infilling' of the Spirit was plainly to give Bezaleel unique abilities. It was to equip him for a particular task. There is no evidence that Bezaleel set up a jewellers when he had finished the work on the Tabernacle. It was a temporary equipping.This is the thrust of the Old Testament narrative passages which relate to the work of the Spirit. He comes, and Ron (inthelight) is right the predominant preposition is 'upon' in the Old Testament experience. However when the equipping is an internal equipping, as distinct from Samsons, or Saul, or David the Holy Spirit comes upon the creative faculties of men and women. It is this 'part' of the men and women which is 'filled' rather than the innermost shrine of their personality.The creative faculty is the area of prophetic inspiration and we see in the narrative of Ezekiel that he too was 'filled' with the Spirit;And he said unto me, Son of man, stand upon thy feet, and I will speak unto thee. And the spirit entered into me when he spake unto me, and set me upon my feet, that I heard him that spake unto me. (Eze 2:1-2 KJV) This is Ezekiel's 'call' and he too is 'filled' with the Spirit, but again in strictest terms the Spirit has filled his creative powers to equip him as a prophet.This is significance of the reference in Peter;Searching what, or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was in them did signify, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow. (1Pe 1:11 KJV)These men recognised the inward inspiration of a Spirit that was 'within' them, but again you will see that this was an equipping for a unique service. The true Bible expression for this is an 'anointing'.The OT saints were only too aware that such an equipping was not necessarily permanent, hence David's prayer;Cast me not away from thy presence; and take not thy holy spirit from me. (Psa 51:11 KJV)Nor were David's fears idle ones; he had seen this exact thing happen to King Saul.It is the work of the Spirit as the Holy Spirit, rather than an equipping Spirit that is the special revelation of the New Testament. The phrase 'Holy Spirit' is only used in Psa_51:11; Isa_63:10; Isa_63:11; and in each case the word holy is used in contrast to the sin of God's servants.The Spirit's work in the New Covenant is very different in its thrust. We so easily forget the extraordinary ministries that the apostles (including Judas) had in the gospels. They were commissioned to (Mat 10:8 KJV) Heal the sick, cleanse the lepers, raise the dead, cast out devils: freely ye have received, freely give. Of their 'successful' ministry Jesus declares; Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you... (Joh 14:17 KJV) but the distinctive promise of the New Covenant is captured in a tiny phrase...and shall be in you. It is important then to understand that all that they accomplished was accomplished without 'the Holy Spirit within them'. They were commissioned and wonderfully enabled to fulfil their God given tasks, and all without the Holy Spirit 'within them'.The contrast is seen in John's letter where he uses the familiar language of 'anointing' but in a New Covenant awareness; But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him. (1Jo 2:27 KJV) See where the anointing has gone now; 'within you', and see too that this is no transitory experience; He has come to 'abide'.We must never minimise the Old Testament saints; their experience was glorious (2 Cor 3:10) but it was a glory that inevitably began in its fulness and faded, as with Moses. The New Covenant begins gloriously and goes on from glory to glory.The Old Testament narratives (and the New Testament) account of them reveal the Spirit equipping men and women externally in power for extraordinary feats of strength and internally for extraordinary creative purposes, but the New Testament concentrates of the coming of the Spirit into the very central shrine of a man or woman with the purpose of transforming them into the image of Christ.The reason I have referred often above to the 'narrative passages' of the OT is because it is necessary to make a distinction between what happened 'narrative' and what was going to happen 'prophetic'. The abiding indwelling of the Spirit is clearly spoken on in Ezekiel 36 but this is Ezekiel's promise of what Jeremiah refers to as the New Covenant, and clearly has its centre in the personal transformation rather than powerful equippings for service.My understanding of this is very much in line with Ron (inthelight) I think.

There is nothing in the Old Testament or the New that suggests that Old Testament saints were regenerated.I've offered already several verses in my first post which you have yet to deal with that I use to show that they did experience such. Please see those.1)Why didn't they have the benefits of the fruit of the Holy Spirit? Where do you come up with such an assertion? Do you not see love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, and self-control displayed in the lives of the OT faithful? Hebrews 11 surely covers the faithfulness part. All these virtues of the Spirit are quite exalted in Proverbs. 2)Why didn't they have the baptism of the Holy Spirit? Actually, they did have the baptism of the Holy Spirit, though in a limited sense. It is beyond my current ability and time to do such (not to mention I just loaned out my copy of the book), but I would highly recommend to you Roger Stronstad's "Charismatic Theology of St Luke" to show that there is continuity between the OT demonstrations of the Spirit, and the NT. Stronstad shows more than convincingly that Luke-Acts employs the same languages that the OT historical narratives use to talk of the activity of the Spirit. He shows rather exhaustively what I can only show in part. In addition to the aforementioned passages with the Spirit of the Lord in the believer...For example:Luke 24:49 And behold, I am sending forth the promise of My Father upon you; but you are to stay in the city until you are clothed with power from on high."1 King 19:19 So he departed from there and found Elisha the son of Shaphat, while he was plowing with twelve pairs of oxen before him, and he with the twelfth. And Elijah passed over to him and threw his mantle on him. (the idea of clothing/mantle are the same idea)Acts 19:6 And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Spirit came on them, and they began speaking with tongues and prophesying.2 Chron. 20:14 Then in the midst of the assembly the Spirit of the LORD came upon Jahaziel the son of Zechariah, the son of Benaiah, the son of Jeiel, the son of Mattaniah, the Levite of the sons of Asaph;Chronicles and the like seems to like the "come upon/came upon" description more than Luke does. However, Luke uses "filled" in the same way Chronicles uses "came upon." The disciples in Acts did not walk around constantly full of the Holy Spirit (though they often had long times of such an experience). Rather, they seemed to receive constant refillings which is always tied to supernatural acts, such as with the OT characters.Acts 4:8 Then Peter, filled with the Holy Spirit, said to them, "Rulers and elders of the people,Acts 4:31 And when they had prayed, the place where they had gathered together was shaken, and they were all filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak the word of God with boldness.Acts 13:9 But Saul, who was also known as Paul, filled with the Holy Spirit, fixed his gaze on him,Acts 13:52 And the disciples were continually filled with joy and with the Holy Spirit.Ephesians 5:18 And do not get drunk with wine, for that is dissipation, but be filled with the Spirit,Being filled with the Spirit is an ongoing, repeated experience, subsequent to the Holy Spirit baptism.Also, here is an example of the Old Testament Spirit baptism:Numbers 11:25 Then the LORD came down in the cloud and spoke to him; and He took of the Spirit who was upon him and placed Him upon the seventy elders. And when the Spirit rested upon them, they prophesied. But they did not do it again.These seventy elders received the baptism of the Holy Spirit so that they might charismatically lead Israel as its rulers. This is much like the famous baptism of the Holy Spirit passage in Acts 2. An Acts 2 type scenario is never spoken of again in subsequent fillings the apostles experienced. They only experienced the mighty rushing wind and cloven tongues of fire once. Much as in the above passage.3)Why weren't they sealed by the Holy Spirit?Paul uses the term "sealed" to denote ownership and authority. The OT saints no doubt belonged to the Lord. 4)Why did Old Testament saints go through a priest but New Testament saints are all priests?The priesthood as cited in the Hebrews passage I quoted in my first posting simply served as copy/shadows of the heavenly reality. It's a total mistake to believe that the OT saints were not all priest. 1 Peter 2:9 But you are A CHOSEN RACE, A royal PRIESTHOOD , A HOLY NATION, A PEOPLE FOR God's OWN POSSESSION, so that you may proclaim the excellencies of Him who has called you out of darkness into His marvelous light;All Peter is doing here is citing:Ex 19:6 and you shall be to Me a kingdom of priests and a holy nation.' These are the words that you shall speak to the sons of Israel."The universal priesthood of all believers was taught by Moses. Just because all did not partake in the Levitical priesthood (the type) doesn't mean they weren't all priests unto God.

It is the work of the Spirit as the Holy Spirit, rather than an equipping Spirit that is the special revelation of the New Testament. The phrase 'Holy Spirit' is only used in Psa_51:11; Isa_63:10; Isa_63:11; and in each case the word holy is used in contrast to the sin of God's servants.From the Law alone we see that God is the one that makes the believer holy. It is not simply New Testament revelation. See for example Ex 31:13, Lev 20:8, Lev 21:8, Lev 22:32 with the phrase: "I am the Lord who sanctifies you" (sanctifies = sets apart = holy) As demonstrated throughout the NT, from the Sermon on the Mount, to Paul's epistles, to the book of Revelation, holiness, righteousness, and the like, has always been and always will be a gift from God conditioned upon faith.

Since it is coming up and I briefly mentioned it in a few posts, there is only one difference I see in the Scriptures between the NT and OT Spirit baptism passages. Joel 2:28-29 reveals this:2:28 "It will come about after this That I will pour out My Spirit on all mankind; And your sons and daughters will prophesy, Your old men will dream dreams, Your young men will see visions.2:29"Even on the male and female servants I will pour out My Spirit in those days. Whereas in the OT the Spirit only came on a selected few for the prophetic ministry, or leadership positions e.g. kings. Joel looks forward to a day where the equipping power of the Holy Spirit for ministry is available to all, young and old, male and female. No matter one's social status or rank, it will be available for all. Thus Peter on the day of Pentecost said:Acts 2:39 For the promise is for you and your children and for all who are far off, as many as the Lord our God will call to Himself.And why is such a promise available to all today? Because now the entire community of the faithful is called into being a "prophetic community" of sorts, by which all are called to be witnesses of the risen Lord. Such was not called for in the OT.

Br. Ron (in the light) wrote:Is God a deficit spender? Would he give out regeneration and complete restoration from the fall before the price was paid?Listen to Solomon in the book of Ecclesiastes, meditate on all that this Scripture, this precept of God brings to bear on our understanding of Him and His plan for His creation.14 \tI know that whatever God does,\tIt shall be forever.\tNothing can be added to it,\tAnd nothing taken from it.\tGod does it, that men should fear before Him. 15 \tThat which is has already been,\tAnd what is to be has already been;\tAnd God requires an account of what is past. The work of Christ was already finished before Adam became the first man.In ChristJeff

PreacherParsley wrote:If the Holy Spirit indwelt the old testiment saints... why was Jesus talking about the Comforter to come? What about the day of Pentecost? What was that all about? Ive always thought that the Holy Spirit just came upon them... but this should be a great study. Psa. 84:1 \tHow lovely is Your tabernacle,\tO LORD of hosts! Psa. 132:7 \tLet us go into His tabernacle;\tLet us worship at His footstool. These songs were sang by many generations before Christ came to earth. As it is today, so it was back then. For some the words we sing today, it is a song that God has given us, so it was back then, God also gave them a personal song. What does it mean to worship at His footstool? How does this man know how lovely the tabernalce of God is? What does it mean to tabernacle with God?In ChristJeff

Br Gregg wrote: The Holy Spirit came into people's life only in the new covanent through the finished work of Jesus Christ. Where does Scripture teach this?James 4:5 Or do you think that the Scripture says in vain, “The Spirit who dwells in us yearns jealously”? What Scripture is James refering too?In ChristJeff

I believe that this notion that the OT saint was regenrated by his faith in the coming Messiah is in error. Regeneration was looked forward to by the OT saints (see Ezek 36:24-30 & Jer 32:38-40) but regeneration could not take place for any person until the Lord Jesus Christ settled the sin problem. When I consider the question of regeneration and salvation I don't see it relating to anything in the Old Testsament other than being pictured in types. No, it is something that clearly seems to require the blood of the cross, therefore how could this have occurred before the death of Jesus? It couldn't.Also, for those of you who consider logic, it should be noted that the thought of rebirth, regeneration, and born again is strictly a New Testament concept, those terms do not appear in the Old Testament. It could be possible that the absence of something in the Old Testament just might indicate that it isn't in the Old Testament.In Christ,Ron

Br Ron In the Light wrote:There is nothing in the Old Testament or the New that suggests that Old Testament saints were regenerated. It is strictly an assumption to say they were regenerated, based on nothing in the Word.Listen to the nature of the relationship one has with the Lord when his heart cries out in the Psalms. Where is David dwelling? In ChristJeff

Br Ron In the Light wrote:1)Why didn't they have the benefits of the fruit of the Holy Spirit? The evidence of the fruits of the Spirit is throughtout the OT. Just look to the example given to us in the life of Joseph.In ChristJeff

Br Ron In the Light wrote:2)Why didn't they have the baptism of the Holy Spirit? How many today know the baptism of the Holy Spirit?3)Why weren't they sealed by the Holy Spirit?What do you understand this sealing to mean according to Scripture?4)Why did Old Testament saints go through a priest but New Testament saints are all priests?Melchizedec served them as Priest, that is those who lived by faith through grace.In ChristJeff

Why do many fight against the precept that all saints had to be indwelled by the Holy Spirit? Why do many struggle with this notion? What do you fear? Many acknowledge the truths that A.W. Tozer writes of. He was known by God no doubt. This man taught the same as Brother Jimmy has declared. Why do you struggle? Do you honor the traditions of men or do you hear the voice of God? If you hear then you know that faith does not begin with you. In ChristJeff

We should ask ourselves why there is a difference between the ministry of the Holy Spirit in the OT and NT. I believe that there is a big difference between the Old Testament and the New Testament in regards to dealing with sin. In the OT sin is covered until the cross, in the NT sin is removed by the sacrifice of Jesus on the cross.The OT saints definately received the benefits of the death, burial, resurrection, and ascension of Christ in that not only were their sins dealt with but they were also taken from Abraham's Bosom (see Luke 16 & Eph 4) to be with the Lord. They couldn't be in the presence of the Lord when they died because their sins were only covered and not removed.Also, there is another difference that may be related, in the OT God's dwelling place was in the Holy of Holies. In the NT, we the believers are now the Temple of the Holy Spirit. This is probably due to the fact that God hadn't yet fully dealt with OT saints sin. God dwelt as closely as He could but couldn't indwell until sin was dealt with finally and fully on the cross.In Christ,Ron

JimmyI've offered already several verses in my first post which you have yet to deal with that I use to show that they did experience such. Please see those.I have shown in my post why these are not referring to regeneration but to equippings. There is a very fundamental difference between the disciples in the gospels and the disciples in the Acts and Epistles. Why did they have to wait to recieve the 'Baptism' if it had been available for the whole OT period?Actually, they did have the baptism of the Holy Spirit, though in a limited sense. It is beyond my current ability and time to do such (not to mention I just loaned out my copy of the book), but I would highly recommend to you Roger Stronstad's "Charismatic Theology of St Luke" to show that there is continuity between the OT demonstrations of the Spirit, and the NT. Stronstad shows more than convincingly that Luke-Acts employs the same languages that the OT historical narratives use to talk of the activity of the Spirit. He shows rather exhaustively what I can only show in part. In addition to the aforementioned passages with the Spirit of the Lord in the believer...For example:Could you have a water baptism in a 'limited sense'? The whole point about a baptism is that it is not in a 'limited sense' but is an overwhelming.Luke 24:49 And behold, I am sending forth the promise of My Father upon you; but you are to stay in the city until you are clothed with power from on high."1 King 19:19 So he departed from there and found Elisha the son of Shaphat, while he was plowing with twelve pairs of oxen before him, and he with the twelfth. And Elijah passed over to him and threw his mantle on him. Elijah's mantle was a symbol of transferred authority. There is no connection between this concept and the idea of being 'clothed with power'. Neither Elijah's nor Elisha's power was in the cloak; it was a means of identification that the watchers would understand that Elisha was Elijah's successor.The NT word for 'clothe' has an interesting derivation. du(n)O is to sink; as when the sun sinks (Luke 4:40) then you add the prefix 'en' meaning 'in'. To clothe was literally to 'sink into'. If you imagine someone dressing a robe you will see the significance. The disciples were going to 'sink down' into power (or be clothed) sinking down into sounds a close image to baptism to me.Luke uses 'filled with the Spirit' in a generic sense and does not further specify whether this is an OT 'filling' or a NT 'filling'; we have to see the context to see which is in view.Numbers 11:25 Then the LORD came down in the cloud and spoke to him; and He took of the Spirit who was upon him and placed Him upon the seventy elders. And when the Spirit rested upon them, they prophesied. But they did not do it again.These seventy elders received the baptism of the Holy Spirit so that they might charismatically lead Israel as its rulers. This is much like the famous baptism of the Holy Spirit passage in Acts 2. An Acts 2 type scenario is never spoken of again in subsequent fillings the apostles experienced. They only experienced the mighty rushing wind and cloven tongues of fire once. Much as in the above passage.Do you baptise people from above in your church? enduements come from above and are part of the imagery of anointings, baptism is a completely different image. This is not baptism at all. If you want an OT Baptism there are several, but this isn't one of them. If you want one from this period... they were all baptised into Moses in the cloud and in the sea. Completely different imagery.The universal priesthood of all believers was taught by Moses. Just because all did not partake in the Levitical priesthood (the type) doesn't mean they weren't all priests unto God.So why did God punish Saul? The Aaronic priesthood did not come into being until after the Sinai Covenant was established. From that time it became an absolute necessity for people to approach God through a priest. Symbolising the same in the New Covenant where our High Priest is the only access to God.

Melchizedec served them as Priest, that is those who lived by faith through grace.RookieYour obsession with Melchizedek surfaces again! Christ did not enter into a Melchizedek-type priesthood until he had ascended into heaven. He had to 'become' a priest. Your persuasion that He held this role even before there were any to require a priest is quite mistaken.

Why do many fight against the precept that all saints had to be indwelled by the Holy Spirit? Why do many struggle with this notion? What do you fear?Many acknowledge the truths that A.W. Tozer writes of. He was known by God no doubt. This man taught the same as Brother Jimmy has declared.Why do you struggle? Do you honor the traditions of men or do you hear the voice of God? If you hear then you know that faith does not begin with you.Where did Tozer teach that the OT saints had received a Baptism in Spirit?Your presumption that only you can hear the voice of God is just arrogance.

Why do you struggle? Do you honor the traditions of men or do you hear the voice of God? If you hear then you know that faith does not begin with you. Hi Jeff,I have tried to read through lots of your posts and have never asked; do you believe that the Old Covenant Saints had essentially the same priveledge as the New Covenant Saints? Because this topic of elevating the Old Covenant into a level standing with the New is one the Messianics often do. This is what the whole 'wineskin' thing is as I see it. There were only ever two 'major' wineskins; the Old and the New. What is happening when you try to blend the New with the Old is that you are putting a new piece of cloth into an old garment. It simply will not work. Look at how many times the word 'better' is used by the writer to the Hebrews to describe how much 'better' the covenant is under the Dispensation of the Gospel. Have I missed something along the way? God Bless,-Robert

I believe that this notion that the OT saint was regenrated by his faith in the coming Messiah is in error. Regeneration was looked forward to by the OT saints (see Ezek 36:24-30 & Jer 32:38-40) but regeneration could not take place for any person until the Lord Jesus Christ settled the sin problem.But the problem of sin was settled before the foundation of the world:Rev 13:8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.If the OT saint did not experience regeneration, why is it that Moses spoke of a spiritually circumcised heart as wrot by the Spirit of God? Why is it that Christ was boggled that Nicodemus the teacher of Israel did not understand the concept of being born again? Also, why would Christ preach the need to be born again if such was not available until after His death?Also, for those of you who consider logic, it should be noted that the thought of rebirth, regeneration, and born again is strictly a New Testament concept, those terms do not appear in the Old Testament. It could be possible that the absence of something in the Old Testament just might indicate that it isn't in the Old Testament.Just because all the same terms are not used does not mean the concepts were not taught. Scholars use language all the time to describe concepts in Scripture, yet those words are nowhere to be found in Scriputre. Such is perfectly logical. There are a lot of common themes in the OT that are in the NT. Being cleansed of sin and such was not simply ritualistic in the OT, it was something they truly experienced. The OT saints are pictured time and time again as having an intimate experiential relationship with God. How is it that they could have an intimate relationship with God unless they were regenerate? Such was not merely type and shadow based.

Listen to the nature of the relationship one has with the Lord when his heart cries out in the Psalms. Where is David dwelling?Amen. The psalmists spoke to God out of what they daily experienced. They understood what it was to walk in an intimate relationship with God.

The OT saints definately received the benefits of the death, burial, resurrection, and ascension of Christ in that not only were their sins dealt with but they were also taken from Abraham's Bosom (see Luke 16 & Eph 4) to be with the Lord. They couldn't be in the presence of the Lord when they died because their sins were only covered and not removed.Where is it taught in Scripture that Abraham's Bosom is not in the presence of God?

In the light wrote:Also, there is another difference that may be related, in the OT God's dwelling place was in the Holy of Holies. In the NT, we the believers are now the Temple of the Holy Spirit. This is probably due to the fact that God hadn't yet fully dealt with OT saints sin. God dwelt as closely as He could but couldn't indwell until sin was dealt with finally and fully on the cross.Where did this man dwell?Psa. 27:5 \tFor in the time of trouble\tHe shall hide me in His pavilion;\tIn the secret place of His tabernacle\tHe shall hide me;\tHe shall set me high upon a rock. In ChristJeff

Also, there is another difference that may be related, in the OT God's dwelling place was in the Holy of Holies. God said time and time again of the OT saints that my dwelling "is in the midst of you." By that, He didn't simply mean within the nationalistic boundaries the land provided. His shekinah was no doubt in the holy of holies, but that doesn't change the fact that His presence was indeed with the people.

Br. Ron wrote: have shown in my post why these are not referring to regeneration but to equippings. There is a very fundamental difference between the disciples in the gospels and the disciples in the Acts and Epistles. Why did they have to wait to recieve the 'Baptism' if it had been available for the whole OT period?Why did God also change the heart of King Saul? When Scripture says that God would make him another man why would this happen if all it is as you teach?6 Then the Spirit of the LORD will come upon you, and you will prophesy with them and be turned into another man. 7 And let it be, when these signs come to you, that you do as the occasion demands; for God is with you. 8 You shall go down before me to Gilgal; and surely I will come down to you to offer burnt offerings and make sacrifices of peace offerings. Seven days you shall wait, till I come to you and show you what you should do.” 1Sam. 10:9 So it was, when he had turned his back to go from Samuel, that God gave him another heart; and all those signs came to pass that day. 10 When they came there to the hill, there was a group of prophets to meet him; then the Spirit of God came upon him, and he prophesied among them. In ChristJeff

Br Ron wrote:RookieYour obsession with Melchizedek surfaces again! Christ did not enter into a Melchizedek-type priesthood until he had ascended into heaven. He had to 'become' a priest. Your persuasion that He held this role even before there were any to require a priest is quite mistaken.What does Scripture say:14 \tI know that whatever God does,\tIt shall be forever.\tNothing can be added to it,\tAnd nothing taken from it.\tGod does it, that men should fear before Him. 15 \tThat which is has already been,\tAnd what is to be has already been;\tAnd God requires an account of what is past. Remember that the order of Melchizedec was fully functioning before Christ died on the cross. For what purpose did this priesthood serve. We are told that all things were created through Christ and for Christ. In ChristJeff

JimmyQuote: I've offered already several verses in my first post which you have yet to deal with that I use to show that they did experience such. Please see those.I have shown in my post why these are not referring to regeneration but to equippings. I was actually directing that comment to the other Ron :) I've yet to see anybody deal with my quotes of Jesus regarding Nicodemus, or the temple as a type of the heavenly realities which are eternal in nature (applying across all time). There is a very fundamental difference between the disciples in the gospels and the disciples in the Acts and Epistles. Why did they have to wait to recieve the 'Baptism' if it had been available for the whole OT period?The outpouring in the New Testament sense could not occur until Christ ascended. Much as Elisah could not have a double portion until Elijah was gone (a type of what was to come). Elijah's mantle was a symbol of transferred authority. There is no connection between this concept and the idea of being 'clothed with power'. Neither Elijah's nor Elisha's power was in the cloak; it was a means of identification that the watchers would understand that Elisha was Elijah's successor.My idea of Elijah's mantle was simply the idea of being "clothed." I was not trying to say there was any inherit power in the cloak itself.The NT word for 'clothe' has an interesting derivation. du(n)O is to sink; as when the sun sinks (Luke 4:40) then you add the prefix 'en' meaning 'in'. To clothe was literally to 'sink into'. If you imagine someone dressing a robe you will see the significance. The disciples were going to 'sink down' into power (or be clothed) sinking down into sounds a close image to baptism to me.The idea of clothed upon and baptism is very much the same. The entire idea is be covered by, emmersed into, surrounded by, or whatever other term one might want to use to denote an outward/external covering/etc. Such ideas of being covered/clothed upon/emersed are found in both testaments.Luke uses 'filled with the Spirit' in a generic sense and does not further specify whether this is an OT 'filling' or a NT 'filling'; we have to see the context to see which is in view.As Stronstad points out in his book, Luke invokes a wide variety of imagery/words to describe the experiences of the disciples with the Spirit.Do you baptise people from above in your church? enduements come from above and are part of the imagery of anointings, baptism is a completely different image.Technically speaking, Joel said God would "pour out" (from above) the Spirit of God in the last days (Pentecost). The idea of baptism/outpouring and the like is the idea of being covered by whatever one is being dipped into. The flood waters that came to destroy the world during the days of Noah are said to have "covered" the entire earth.So why did God punish Saul? The Aaronic priesthood did not come into being until after the Sinai Covenant was established. From that time it became an absolute necessity for people to approach God through a priest. Symbolising the same in the New Covenant where our High Priest is the only access to God.Saul didn't have rights to the Aaronic priesthood. The OT saints were to be a royal priesthood, but that doesn't mean they had rights to serve in the temple ceremonies. They served as priests by offering prayers, sacrifices of praise, and the like to God (in the same way you and I serve as priests unto God). If they attempted to serve as priests in the temple, they would be correctly punished for such.

Br. Ron wrote:Where did Tozer teach that the OT saints had received a Baptism in Spirit?In one of the semons on this site. Many have acknowledged this at SI. If anyone remember the sermon please help Ron?In ChristJeff

In one of the semons on this site. Many have acknowledged this at SI. If anyone remember the sermon please help Ron?I know that Tozer, in an off hand sort of a way, said he regarded the OT saints as regenerate, but did he really say that they had been baptised in the Spirit?

Remember that the order of Melchizedec was fully functioning before Christ died on the cross. For what purpose did this priesthood serve.You're wrong.

Br Robert wrote:What is happening when you try to blend the New with the Old is that you are putting a new piece of cloth into an old garment. It simply will not work.You are absolutely right in that the covenant on Mount Sinai cannot be compared with the covenant made with Abraham and every generation that follow him in receiving the grace of God through faith. What is the covenant of circumcision all about?What kingdom was Christ refering too when He condemned those before Him, saying, "you yourselves are not willing to enter in?"Matt. 23:13 “But woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you shut up the kingdom of heaven against men; for you neither go in yourselves, nor do you allow those who are entering to go in.Matt. 21:43 “Therefore I say to you, the kingdom of God will be taken from you and given to a nation bearing the fruits of it.The OT Saints entered into His rest through faith, the same rest that we have available to us who would believe. Have you ever thought about what it will be like during the 1000 year reign of Christ? How little do we understand compared to what that generation will understand.In ChristJeffJeff

How is it that they could have an intimate relationship with God unless they were regenerate?As we have discussed previously, the relationship was made possible by a covering of sin in OT, not by removal as is the case in the NT.But the problem of sin was settled before the foundation of the world:Indeed, it was foreordained that God would redeem His people by His blood and that was confirmed after the Fall but obviously that blood needed to be shed at some point in time. The question is, did God regenerate and complete restoration from the Fall before the price was paid? In Christ,Ron

Br. RonYou're wrong.Who did Abraham pay tithes too?In ChristJeff

I know that Tozer, in an off hand sort of a way, said he regarded the OT saints as regenerate, but did he really say that they had been baptised in the Spirit?Or if I might put it another way: Were they and Christ one Spirit?

the relationship was made possible by a covering of sin in OTHow was sin covered for in the OT when there were no priests offering sacrifices, such as during the exile?Indeed, it was foreordained that God would redeem His people by His blood and that was confirmed after the Fall but obviously that blood needed to be shed at some point in time. The question is, did God regenerate and complete restoration from the Fall before the price was paid?Indeed, the blood had to be shed at some point in time, but the fact that it was shed before the foundations of the world shows that though it was effective to all generations. The types/shadows/copies were pictures of the heavenly realities. Heavenly realities have always been the same.

Or if I might put it another way: Were they and Christ one Spirit?Moses shared the reproaches of Christ (Heb 11:26). He could only do such if he was one with Christ. Also, the aforementioned passage of Peter mentions that it was the Spirit of Christ within the Prophets that prophesied....Also, has anybody noticed that Isaiah 53's Messianic prophecy is in the past tense? Isaiah could testify with us "by His stripes we are healed..."

How was sin covered for in the OT when there were no priests offering sacrifices, such as during the exile?Because Christ was coming with the price to be paid. It was a done deal in the mind of God. You fellas will be talking for a long long time before you convince me that the folk under the Old Covenant were actually 'regenerated.'

Indeed, the blood had to be shed at some point in time, but the fact that it was shed before the foundations of the world shows that though it was effective to all generations.Just so everyone knows, I am not questioning the fact of regeneration for all, just the when. To my mind, if the OT saints were regenerate then logically speaking Jesus Christ didn't have to die, they were already fully equipped for heaven if they were regenerated.In Christ,Ron

RobertW said:Because Christ was coming with the price to be paid. It was a done deal in the mind of God. InTheLight said:the relationship was made possible by a covering of sin in OT, not by removal as is the case in the NT.Just a question... where is the Scripture to justify such a distinction? I'm seeing so far a lot of explinations I've heard in Bible college and read of in commentaries and have heard from the pulpit, but I'm not seeing much Scripture to justify such. You fellas will be talking for a long long time before you convince me that the folk under the Old Covenant were actually 'regenerated.'Christ believed such a concept was evidently taught as shown in John 3, otherwise, why was he surprised at Nicodemus's lack of understanding?

To my mind, if the OT saints were regenerate then logically speaking Jesus Christ didn't have to die, they were already fully equipped for heaven if they were regenerated.The eternally finished work of Christ secured the ability for OT saints to be regenerated. OT saints could only be regenerated because of the work of Christ accomplished before the foundations of the world.

The eternally finished work of Christ secured the ability for OT saints to be regenerated. OT saints could only be regenerated because of the work of Christ accomplished before the foundations of the worldI understand all that, but there is a great difference between a person being 'saved' or an heir to the righteousness which if of God by faith and a person being a New Creature in Christ.

I understand all that, but there is a great difference between a person being 'saved' or an heir to the righteousness which if of God by faith and a person being a New Creature in Christ.A lot of problem of what I'm finding in this discussion is this great distinction that is being made in our doctrines regarding salvation. How is it that a person can be justified by faith, be righteous, sanctified, redeemed, be a child of God, and all the other wonderful terms we associate with salvation, yet at the same time they are actually spiritually dead (in regard to the so-called unregenerated OT saints)? I'm sorry, but you'll have to spend a long time convincing me that is salvation! Such is not a very holistic view of salvation- a holistic view I believe the Scriptures teach from cover to cover.

Well guys, we can get into the discussion if you wish, but regeneration is one of the aspects of the New Covenant that make it a 'better' covenant. As for John 3:3- it is obvious that even the most learned folk in the New Testament era had no idea what He was talking about. That showed how far removed they were prophetically from what God intended to do in Messiah. They saw the end as the Kingdom restored to Israel- Christ taught the end as the Kingdom dwelling within 'you.' Let me see, where shall we begin?

How is it that a person can be justified by faith, be righteous, sanctified, redeemed, be a child of God, and all the other wonderful terms we associate with salvation, yet at the same time they are actually spiritually dead (in regard to the so-called unregenerated OT saints)? So as to not make any assumptions as we are going along; what is your position on Original Sin?

Look at this question that Paul asks the folks at Galatia:This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith? Having begun in the Spirit are you now made perfect by the flesh?...The Law was a school master that hemmed the people in to understand that they had not just 'sinned', but they were 'Sinners'. The works of the Law are works done in the 'flesh' (Gk sarx), that is, they are works that are done when one is not walking in the Spirit. The Galatian people were under the influence of Judaizers that would seek to get them under the Law again- but the Spirit is not received by the works of the Law; therefor I conclude that the Spirit of God did not fill folks in the Old Testament as in the New as they had not died in Christ and been united with Him in one Spirit taking Sin down into death and freeing them from its domain. NO ONE, save Christ, under the Old Testament was free from Sin after the manor of those who are under the New Covenant. Those people were all "In Adam" and dead in their trespasses and sins. They were saved from the penalty of Sin by grace through faith- we are free from the dominion of Sin under the New Covenant that was established upon better promises.Look at the contrast between those under the New Covenant and those under the Old:Old Covenant/ New Covenant In Adam/In Christ Law of Sin/ Law of GodSpirit of Disobedience/ Spirit of God Lusted for Sin/ Hunger for Righteousness "All Die"/ "All made alive"Free From Righteousness/ Free From SinSlave to Sin/ Slave to GodYielded Thorns and Briars/ Yield the Fruit of the SpiritChildren of Wrath/ Children of GodUnder the Curse/ Redeemed from the CurseIf you follow the belief that you are espousing to its logical conclusion it removes the need to Believe in Christ for Salvation. Therefor the Jews who serve God now as did those in the Old Covenant are already Born Again and need not Christ. Brethren, that is flat heresy.

his only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith? Having begun in the Spirit are you now made perfect by the flesh?...The law can only condemn it was never given to change man. It is only by the Spirit can one know God, for God is Spirit. How did Enoch please God?What covenant did Jacob receive that night when God touched his hip?In ChristJeff

How did Enoch please God?By faith, the same as everyone else who ever pleased God.What covenant did Jacob receive that night when God touched his hip?There is no mention of any kind of covenant being made that night. Although later parts of the scripture refer to a covenant with Jacob the scriptures themselves do not specify when in took place.

Jesus was quite surprised that Nicodemus didn’t understand what it meant to be born of the Spirit of God. After all, Nicodemus was a teacher of Israel, and Jesus believes any teacher of Israel should surely understand this concept. Jesus speaking of being “born again” is the same concept of Moses speaking of the circumcision of the heart.Proselytes to Judaism were required to submit to circumcision and to baptism. This was viewed as a repetition of Joshua's crossing into the land, and of Naaman’s baptism. The underlying idea is that the convert has been born again once he has become a Jew. He had been ‘born again’ as a Jew.They believed it brought them into the kingdom. Jesus says it doesn't; that requires a birth of water and of the Spirit. They understood the figure of water baptism; to it He adds Spirit baptism. Both Repentance and Regeneration are necessary. “Except you are born of all that water baptism signified, repentance and that which the Spirit baptism accomplishes, regeneration, you cannot enter into the Kingdom of God" (G Campbell Morgan)Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God. (Joh 3:3 KJV)This word is spoken expressly to Nicodemus; I say unto thee, but it is wider than Nicodemus. Jesus is stating a universal principle that there is no 'seeing' of the Kingdom of God without regeneration.Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again. (Joh 3:7 KJV)Do you see the switch here from the singular 'thee' to the plural 'ye'. Who else was there who needed to be included in this declaration? Well John for one. This is not just a word to Nicodemus but to all who heard. You will note that he doesn't say 'you must get yourself born again' as though he was laying a responsibility upon Nicodemus. This is not a command but the declaring of a truth. All must be born again, or as it really should be translated 'from above'. He then immediately begins to speak about the work of the Spirit as wind, so we have wind and a life that comes from above... and suddenly there came from heaven the sound of a rushing mighty wind.Nicodemus protests. How can these things be? There is a probably a subtle point being made here in that when Nicodemus first addressed Jesus the order of the words has the word teacher right at the end; this one came unto him by night, and said to him, `Rabbi, we have known that from God thou hast come--a teacher, for no one these signs is able to do that thou dost, if God may not be with him.' (Joh 3:2 YLT) It was as far as Nicodemus was prepared to go, teacher. Not prophet, certainly not Messiah. From God certainly but a teacher.Jesus now takes up the point and uses the same word ‘teacher’;Jesus answered and said to him, `Thou art the teacher of Israel--and these things thou dost not know! (Joh 3:10 YLT) Youngs Literal translation brings out the significance of Nicodemus question. Nicodemus answered and said to him, `How are these things able to happen?' (Joh 3:9 YLT) The word translated ‘can’ in the KJV and ‘able’ in the YLT is the word ‘dunamai’. Nicodemus’ question is about the ‘power’ which would make such a thing possible; just as Mary’s was. In each case the answer is the same; the Holy Spirit.The emphasis here is upon the word ‘thou’. “Art [u[thou[/u], Israel’s teacher.” (the emphatic pronoun is used drawing attention to where the emphasis is in the verse) This is the status afforded to Nicodemus by Christ. He was Israel’s foremost Rabbi. The emphasis is upon his role, even ‘the teacher of Israel’ is ignorant of these things. At this stage Nicodemus’ ignorance was due to his not ‘receiving Christ’s witness’. Even when he had heard of the absolute necessity of a birth from heaven he has remained in ignorance because he is not ‘receiving Christ’s word’.Nicodemus was ignorant personally and theologically of the empowering of the Spirit. Even the greatest of Israel's teachers was totally 'ignorant' of 'these things'. What things? That 'new birth' was the work of a Spirit who would come like the wind.It is also key to note the words of Jesus concerning John Baptist;Verily I say unto you, Among them that are born of women there hath not risen a greater than John the Baptist: notwithstanding he that is least in the kingdom of heaven is greater than he. (Mat 11:11 KJV) For I say unto you, Among those that are born of women there is not a greater prophet than John the Baptist: but he that is least in the kingdom of God is greater than he. (Luk 7:28 KJV) What can that mean if it doesn’t mean that John was not in the kingdom of God, and yet he was the ‘greatest’ born of women’. He was filled with the Spirit from his mother's womb and yet not in the Kingdom of God. We know from John 3 that entrance into the kingdom of God. This is a key scripture in that whatever the experience of Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, David etc, John Baptist was greater, but not in the kingdom and therefore necessarily not born again. If the greatest, born of woman, was not born again, what shall we say of the lesser?

Paul and the author of Hebrews have an understanding of the Old Testament temple as serving as an earthly copy of what is in heaven. Hebrews author cites Exodus 25:40 where Moses is told to make the tabernacle according to what he literally saw to prove that the temple and its ceremonies served as copies of the heavenly realities. Since the Spirit of God indwells all believers, the temple is invoked as an image of this truth. Now, this truth is not simply a truth of the New Testament believer. The temple simply served as a copy of what was already a heavenly reality. The heavenly temple of which the earthly served as a copy shows the indwelling of the Spirit as an eternal truth, which can be applied to all generations, New and Old Testament alike.We seriously need a definition of 'believers' to understand this statement. He said to them, "Did you receive the Holy Spirit when you believed?" And they said to him, "No, we have not even heard whether there is a Holy Spirit." (Act 19:2 NASB) This is a plain statement that Paul appreciated the prospect of a 'believer' who had not received the Spirit. Your statement, no doubt, is based on Romans 8. But this passage is specifically referring to those who are 'Christ's'. We need to ask the question was Abraham etc 'Christ's' in the sense that Paul is using his language here. In the language of our own day 'Was Abraham a Christian?' The instinct will be to say 'but He was 'God's' but that is not my question. My question is 'was Abraham a Christian?' As soon as you begin to say 'well, not in the sense that we are Christians...' You are recognising that there is something different about the eras. From then on it just a question of deciding what is different.The consistent testimony of the Scriptures, both Old and New Testaments, that it is only by the indwelling Holy Spirit that men can live a life of faith and godliness. After all, how else but by the Spirit of God could you live such a life? All who have been born again, and born from above, have only done so by the Holy Spirit. It is only those who have been born of heaven that can testify that this world is not their home, and that their citizenship is of heaven, and that they are just merely sojourners in this world.The beginning of this statement is just not biblically accurate. The whole concept of the 'indwelling Spirit' is a unique New Testament theme.

For somebody who has not gone to a bible school, this thread is very enlightening. There is one thing that needs to be pointed out, I believe, to place biblical revelations in its proper perspective.King Jimmy wrote:The eternally finished work of Christ secured the ability for OT saints to be regenerated. OT saints could only be regenerated because of the work of Christ accomplished before the foundations of the world.While it is true that the Lamb was slain from the foundation of the world, wasn't this spoken from eternal perspective, outside of time and space?However we are in time. In time sin came into the world; in time Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Moses lived; in time Jesus came, died and rose again; in time the Holy Spirit came at Pentecost. Everything happened in time. Hence we have the old and new testament, the old and new covenant. In this light it is easier to understand why the new covenant is different and better than the old.

Everything happened in time. Hence we have the old and new testament, the old and new covenant. In this light it is easier to understand why the new covenant is different and better than the old.I agree with this. Christ did enter into the Holiest at the end of the ages to provide 'once' the price paid for sin; yet in time He died and rose again. It was after that point in time that those who trusted in the finished work of the cross could be in Christ- dead unto Sin and alive unto God- raised with Him to walk in newness of life. God Bless,-Robert

While it is true that the Lamb was slain from the foundation of the world, wasn't this spoken from eternal perspective, outside of time and space?However we are in time. In time sin came into the world; in time Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Moses lived; in time Jesus came, died and rose again; in time the Holy Spirit came at Pentecost. Everything happened in time.Theophilus MDYou are right and this is at the heart of our discussion here. It is the power of the word 'now' which we often find in the NT. It implies something has changed. I am not a dispensationalist in the accepted sense of that word, but there is no doubt that we have moved into the 'now' of 'realised eschatology'; that is a students phrase!. It is the sense of the phrase; the hour is coming and has arrived. Acts 17:30, Rom 3:21, 5:9,11, 2 Cor 6:2, Eph 2:13, 19, 3:5, 10, etc The Cross and the Coming of the Spirit have brought us into the 'last days'. We are the generation, and have been since Penecost, upon whom the end of the ages has come.We hear the longing in the Lord's heart 'I am come to send fire on the earth; and what will I, if it be already kindled? But I have a baptism to be baptized with; and how am I straitened till it be accomplished! (Luk 12:49-50 KJV) Something has happened which has changed forever the basis upon which God deals with men and women.

Br. Ron wrote:By faith, the same as everyone else who ever pleased God.Paul teaches that all men are depraved, from Adam to today. This doctrine expresses the nature of man. Paul also teaches:Romans 8: 5 For those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who live according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit. 6 For to be carnally minded is death, but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. 7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God; for it is not subject to the law of God, nor indeed can be. 8 So then, those who are in the flesh cannot please God. So does this precept which Paul teaches apply to those who lived before Christ? If so how then does this precept change your understanding of how man is enabled to please God?There is no mention of any kind of covenant being made that night. Although later parts of the scripture refer to a covenant with Jacob the scriptures themselves do not specify when in took place.Gen. 32:28 And He said, “Your name shall no longer be called Jacob, but Israel; for you have struggled with God and with men, and have prevailed.” Gen. 35:9 Then God appeared to Jacob again, when he came from Padan Aram, and blessed him. 10 And God said to him, “Your name is Jacob; your name shall not be called Jacob anymore, but Israel shall be your name.” So He called his name Israel. 11 Also God said to him: “I am God Almighty. Be fruitful and multiply; a nation and a company of nations shall proceed from you, and kings shall come from your body. 12 The land which I gave Abraham and Isaac I give to you; and to your descendants after you I give this land.” 13 Then God went up from him in the place where He talked with him. 12 Then he dreamed, and behold, a ladder was set up on the earth, and its top reached to heaven; and there the angels of God were ascending and descending on it. Gen. 28:13 And behold, the LORD stood above it and said: “I am the LORD God of Abraham your father and the God of Isaac; the land on which you lie I will give to you and your descendants. 14 Also your descendants shall be as the dust of the earth; you shall spread abroad to the west and the east, to the north and the south; and in you and in your seed all the families of the earth shall be blessed. 15 Behold, I am with you and will keep you wherever you go, and will bring you back to this land; for I will not leave you until I have done what I have spoken to you.” In each of these Scriptures God promises to do. He does not ask Jacob to obey. What covenant does this represent?One final example: what covenant is David speaking of?5 \t“Although my house is not so with God,\tYet He has made with me an everlasting covenant,\tOrdered in all things and secure.\tFor this is all my salvation and all my desire;\tWill He not make it increase? In ChristJeff

Brother Robert wrote:The Galatian people were under the influence of Judaizers that would seek to get them under the Law again- but the Spirit is not received by the works of the Law; therefor I conclude that the Spirit of God did not fill folks in the Old Testament as in the New as they had not died in Christ and been united with Him in one Spirit taking Sin down into death and freeing them from its domain. Just recently I have listened to Zac Poonen's teaching on this. He stated that those who lived before Christ could not overcomes sin. He directly spoke of the Old Covenant in that it was powerless. Poonen's focus is on the Law. What he doesn't want to see is the grace that God gave to those who lived by faith. I am speaking of the grace which changes the heart and mind. For Paul writes:Rom. 6:14 For sin shall not have dominion over you, for you are not under law but under grace. I have learned to search the Scripture for evidence of things not seen. The evidence is given to us as examples that we might learn from the OT people in how some failed and how some lived victoriously. Psa. 40:6 \tSacrifice and offering You did not desire;\tMy ears You have opened.\tBurnt offering and sin offering You did not require. Here what do we learn? David says that God has opened his ears. David also states that God does not want men to sin. "Burnt offering and sin offering You did not require." Well then what provision did God give to David in order that he might not sin? Obiously David in not provided for by the Law given on mount sinai. Well then what is left?In ChristJeff

Sadly, I am going to have to leave this conversation for a while. Today I received my last 2 books for independent studies at school, and I have less than 6 weeks to complete these classes, in addition to my other 2 classes, in order to graduate on time. My aim is to have them done within the next 4 weeks. During that time I will have to read a couple hundred pages worth of commentaries, take 6 tests and write 3 papers for these 2 classes alone (not to mention my other 2 classes). Perhaps after I am done with these studies, I shall return to this topic :) Be in prayer for me. The 2 self-studies I'm doing is on the Minor Prophets and Wisdom Literature. My other 2 classes at school are the Gospel of John and New Testament Theology.God bless :)

freecd wrote:Were they delivered from the power of darkness and translated into the kingdom of His dear Son? 16 And what agreement has the temple of God with idols? For you are the temple of the living God. As God has said:\t“I will dwell in them\tAnd walk among them.\tI will be their God,\tAnd they shall be My people.”17 Therefore\t“Come out from among them\tAnd be separate, says the Lord.\tDo not touch what is unclean,\tAnd I will receive you.”18 \t“I will be a Father to you,\tAnd you shall be My sons and daughters,\tSays the LORD Almighty.”Where does Paul glean this Scripture from? In ChristJeff

Were they delivered from the power of darkness and translated into the kingdom of His dear Son? This is a good question. When did that kingdom begin?And in the days of these kings shall the God of heaven set up a kingdom, which shall never be destroyed: and the kingdom shall not be left to other people, but it shall break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms, and it shall stand for ever. (Dan 2:44 KJV)For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace. Of the increase of his government and peace there shall be no end, upon the throne of David, and upon his kingdom, to order it, and to establish it with judgment and with justice from henceforth even for ever. The zeal of the LORD of hosts will perform this. (Isa 9:6-7 KJV)Before His death there had to be His birth. The kingdom of the Son was prophesied to come into being at a point in human history. Before that time no one could enter into that Kingdom. That's why John Baptist used the language of the Kingdom having drawn near. That is a snap shot of a moment in a process; processes are time-based phenomena.I am not questioning Abraham's faith or that of any other, not even the greatest of them all; John Baptist. I am simply saying that you can't enter a kingdom until it has been established; and Christ's kingdom could not be established until the Stone was rejected and then chosen by God as the Foundation/Corner Stone. This is the language of Paul in Romans. He does not say those without the Spirit do not have faith in God; he says they are not Christ's.

Br Ron quotes from Isaiah 9:6 \tFor unto us a Child is born,\tUnto us a Son is given;\tAnd the government will be upon His shoulder.\tAnd His name will be called\tWonderful, Counselor, Mighty God,\tEverlasting Father, Prince of Peace. 7 \tOf the increase of His government and peace\tThere will be no end,\tUpon the throne of David and over His kingdom,\tTo order it and establish it with judgment and justice\tFrom that time forward, even forever.\tThe zeal of the Lord of hosts will perform this. In a previous chapter we also hear of the Lord's coming:Is. 7:13 Then he said, “Hear now, O house of David! Is it a small thing for you to weary men, but will you weary my God also? 14 Therefore the Lord Himself will give you a sign: Behold, the virgin shall conceive and bear a Son, and shall call His name Immanuel. 15 Curds and honey He shall eat, that He may know to refuse the evil and choose the good. 16 For before the Child shall know to refuse the evil and choose the good, the land that you dread will be forsaken by both her kings. 17 The LORD will bring the king of Assyria upon you and your people and your father’s house—days that have not come since the day that Ephraim departed from Judah.” Now we know that this Scripture also speaks of the Lord's kingdom. But please notice, the Lord gives this Scripture, this sign to a man who lived in that generation during the time of Isaiah. 14 Therefore the Lord Himself will give you a sign: Behold, the virgin shall conceive and bear a Son, and shall call His name Immanuel. 15 Curds and honey He shall eat, that He may know to refuse the evil and choose the good. 16 For before the Child shall know to refuse the evil and choose the good, the land that you dread will be forsaken by both her kings.What does this Scripture speak to those who were given the words of God by Isaiah. Isaiah specifically said, in verse prior: Is. 7:10 Moreover the LORD spoke again to Ahaz, saying, 11 “Ask a sign for yourself from the LORD your God; ask it either in the depth or in the height above.” Is. 7:12 But Ahaz said, “I will not ask, nor will I test the LORD!” Is. 7:13 Then he said, “Hear now, O house of David! Is it a small thing for you to weary men, but will you weary my God also? 14 Therefore the Lord Himself will give you a sign:The words of Isaiah applied to his generation as well as our generation. The kingdom is the household of God as we have been discussing in the other thread. What does it mean to be in the Household of God?In ChristJeff

rookiewhen are you going to answer some of the points rather than shooting off on new tangents?

Br. Ron wrote:rookiewhen are you going to answer some of the points rather than shooting off on new tangents?One thing I've noticed in your comments made to me is that when you sense that there is something more to be understood you try to stop the progression of thought.The post I made is only a new tangent for those who don't see the connection. It is only a tangent for those who do not want to know.In ChristJeff

One thing I've noticed in your comments made to me is that when you sense that there is something more to be understood you try to stop the progression of thought.Nonsense, you're imagining it.

Br.Ron wrote:Nonsense, you're imagining it.Just the way you speak to me is proof enough. To say nonsense to a brother in Christ seems unloving.I know I irritate you. I am sorry. But the Scriptures are all that I stand on. I am not trained in the ways of men. I really don't know what exegeris is. All I know is that I labor in love for the mysteries of God that are given to those He chooses. The thoughts that come, come from Scripture. The mysteries of God's grace in the OT reveal His righteousness and man's depravity. The carnal mind cannot please God. It is only by the Spirit that man can be known by God. It is only through the Spirit that man can have these thoughts:Psa. 61:4 \tI will abide in Your tabernacle forever;\tI will trust in the shelter of Your wings.\t\t\t\tSelahIn ChristJeff

Br. Karl wrote:The OT saints were not regenerated because the promise had not come to restore all things.David was changed by this promise:5 \t“Although my house is not so with God,\tYet He has made with me an everlasting covenant,\tOrdered in all things and secure.\tFor this is all my salvation and all my desire;\tWill He not make it increase? The words of a man called David unlocks the grace of God that has been given to all generations. Psa. 12:6 \tThe words of the LORD are pure words,\tLike silver tried in a furnace of earth,\tPurified seven times. Psa. 17:4 \tConcerning the works of men,\tBy the word of Your lips,\tI have kept away from the paths of the destroyer. Psa. 18:30 \tAs for God, His way is perfect;\tThe word of the LORD is proven;\tHe is a shield to all who trust in Him. Psa. 89:34 \tMy covenant I will not break,\tNor alter the word that has gone out of My lips. The Law given on Mount Sinai condemned men so that all may know their own depravity. The law given demonstrated to men that they were powerless. The promise given to those who lived before Christ is no different from the promise that God still speaks to man today. Genesis 17:7 And I will establish My covenant between Me and you and your descendants after you in their generations, for an everlasting covenant, to be God to you and your descendants after you. If God promises you to be God to you, will not His Spirit complete the work? The promise is secure as David understood His faithfulness. This is grace and not the law. But many today refuse to see the grace of God in the OT. Why, because then they would know that they must choose this day to truely live by faith. Faith comes from hearing the word of God. Genesis gives example after example of God speaking to man. Genesis gives examples of those who rebel, those who believe for a time, and then those who believe like Abraham and Joseph. It is all about the quality of one's faith, do you obey Him who speaks to you? He is near, He is at the door, open it. In ChristJeff

Just the way you speak to me is proof enough. To say nonsense to a brother in Christ seems unloving.I am sorry if you perceive it so, but I tell you in this too you are mistaken

you all are going to be so surprised at who you see in paradise......But you are presuming that only those who have been regerated will be in paradise. I know that Abraham is with the Lord, but that was not the question. Look up if you have forgotten it? ;-)

As pretaing the Holy Spirit and the working of such in the OT verses the NT , it has always been my understanding that the OT saints were clothed upon while the NT believers had the indwelling presence, and that mainly because of the work of Christ and his blood on our consciences.Is that acurate? Also as I read through this thread we all seem to make so many comparrisons between the early church and todays church in quality, That's not wise. I believe that God will do a wonderful work in what I believe is these last days , He knew who would be present and nothing is taking him by surprise , not even his children.So while I appreciate all that has gone before me in the church(grace) age,if you like, I believe we are the mighty army that God has chosen to fill with His Holy Spirit for this end time move of His Grace.

as I read through this thread we all seem to make so many comparrisons between the early church and todays church in quality, That's not wise.I agree with you, dohzman. I think it is because we are comparing OT heros with contemporary Christianity that we come to the conclusion that they were at least equal if not superior in their experience.We have to compare like with like, which means comparing Old Testament saints with New Testament saints. Our personal realisation of God's intention is no grounds for comparison.

Jimmywhen you get back from your studies I would recommend that you read a section of Edersheim's "Life and Times of Jesus the Messiah". He was an extraordinary scholar with a particular insight into what Christ's words and acts meant for 1st Century Jews.In his section on John 3, he has some particuarly perceptive things to say. It can be found at many places on the Web but this link will take you straight to the relevant chapter; John 3. There are also appendices to the book relating to Jewish Proselytes which are very informative. He includes this comment;Judaism could understand a new relationship towards God and man, and even the forgiveness of sins. But it had no conception of a moral renovation, a spiritual birth, as the initial condition for reformation, far less as that for seeing the Kingdom of God. And it was because it had no idea of such 'birth from above,' of its reality or even possibility, that Judaism could not be the Kingdom of God.

There is nothing in the Old Testament or the New that suggests that Old Testament saints were regeneratedNeilgin1 wrote:I've gone thru over 100 (it feels like) posts, and I have yet to figure out whats been said until the above statement and I gotta ask,What was Jesus doing with Elijah and Moses at the Transfiguration?

Paul writes: Romans 85 For those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who live according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit. 6 For to be carnally minded is death, but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. 7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God; for it is not subject to the law of God, nor indeed can be. 8 So then, those who are in the flesh cannot please God. Listen to Scripture and what it teaches us.1Sam. 16:13 Then Samuel took the horn of oil and anointed him in the midst of his brothers; and the Spirit of the LORD came upon David from that day forward. So Samuel arose and went to Ramah. Please notice that the Spirit of God was upon David from that day forward. Is there an end to the Spirit's work in David? No, he has an everlasting covenant. Listen for the evidence of God's work in David.Acts 13:22 And when He had removed him, He raised up for them David as king, to whom also He gave testimony and said, “I have found David the son of Jesse, a man after My own heart, who will do all My will.’Can a man please God without the Holy Spirit? What does Scripture say?In ChristJeff

I listened to this teaching this morning on the way in to work. Ravenhill speaks of what churches are missing in this generation. Please notice that he uses the life of Samson, an OT saint as an example for us today. What did he have that we don't have in this generation?https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/mydownloads/visit.php?lid=1012In ChristJeff

What did he have that we don't have in this generation?He 'didn't have' what the disciples of Jesus 'didn't have' until Pentecost; an abiding indwelling Holy Spirit.

Ravenhill was teaching about the power of the annoiting of the Holy Spirit. Where is the "dunamis"? Where's the beef?In ChristJeff

rookie wrote:Ravenhill was teaching about the power of the annoiting of the Holy Spirit. Where is the "dunamis"? Where's the beef?In ChristJeffI am talking about the indwelling of the Spirit, not the anointing.

Br Ron wrote:I am talking about the indwelling of the Spirit, not the anointing.James 2:26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also. Can someone without the indwelling of the Spirit please God? Remember James wrote:James 4:5 Or do you think that the Scripture says in vain, “The Spirit who dwells in us yearns jealously”? In ChristJeff

I have raised this more than once but so far had no takers. John the Baptist, according to Christ, was the greatest man born of woman. Nevertheless, he that is least in the Kingdom of God is greater than he. Verily I say unto you, Among them that are born of women there hath not risen a greater than John the Baptist: notwithstanding he that is least in the kingdom of heaven is greater than he. (Mat 11:11 KJV)Now what are we to make of this statement? The phrase ‘born of woman’ is clearly the key. There are those that are ‘born of woman’ and those that are ‘born of the Spirit’. John Baptist, though the greatest son of the human race, was only ‘born of woman’. You may make your list as long as you like and draw out all the virtues of those old saints, but this verse will still be here to haunt you. John Baptist was ‘born of woman’. Will you contend with the Lord’s judgement on this? I know I have what Greg calls some ‘interesting views’ but this is not my judgement of John Baptist but Christ’s.Then we have ‘least in the kingdom of heaven’ in Matthew and ‘kingdom of God’ in Luke. John’s gospel tells us that no one can enter the kingdom without being ‘born from above’ ‘of the Spirit’. The Lord is clearly contrasting John Baptist with this ‘least in the kingdom’. The Lord is clearly conscious of kingdoms here and knows who is in which. John is clearly not in the Kingdom, although he is the greatest born of woman.Christ’s commendation of John is extreme. He describes John as ‘restoring all things’. He is the greatest son of another covenant, and brought Israel back to God by his powerful preaching and witness. John, however, was conscious that his water baptism had obvious limitations. I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire: Whose fan is in his hand, and he will throughly purge his floor, and gather his wheat into the garner; but he will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire. Then cometh Jesus from Galilee to Jordan unto John, to be baptized of him. But John forbad him, saying, I have need to be baptized of thee, and comest thou to me? (Mat 3:11-14 KJV) John is the greatest ‘born of women’ but he knows that there is a baptism far beyond the one that he can minister. Now John was ‘filled with the Spirit from his mother’s womb’ but was still only ever ‘born of woman’. Please explain to me how my text can be interpreted in any other way than the one which I have given.

Can someone without the indwelling of the Spirit please God? It is the absence of faith which makes it impossible to please God.But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him. (Heb 11:6 KJV)

Ron, I've just got a little question. It could be my lack of the English language (not being sarcastic) that I understood you wrongly, butJohn is clearly not in the Kingdom, although he is the greatest born of woman....are you saying that John the Baptist isn't saved? Or are you saying that John got saved, but in terms of the old covenant (which I think is more or less the case) and that he didn't partake in the new covenant where the Spirit indwells the hearts of those who believe on the Lord Jesus Christ? You read in the Old Testament that the Spirit came upon someone. That's why David prayed: "take not thy holy spirit from me" (Psalm 51:11). This had happened to Saul. This is not a prayer I pray, for I know that I have been sealed with the Holy Spirit (Eph 1:13). How could a sinless and holy God indwell the lives of sinful and unholy people? Isn't that totally impossible? And isn't it true that for that purpose Jesus came (and other things of course)? There's a significant difference between OT and NT-believers. About the OT-believers, Jesus says:""Blessed are the eyes which see the things you see; for I tell you that many prophets and kings have desired to see what you see, and have not seen it, and to hear what you hear, and have not heard it." (Luke 10:23-24)"And these all, having had witness borne to them through their faith, received not the promise, God having provided some better thing concerning us, that apart from us they should not be made perfect." (Hebrews 11:39-40)The people of the Old Testament only saw shadows (which are temporary) and it was all about external things. External rituals, external justification, etc. "For if he were on earth, he should not be a priest, seeing that there are priests that offer gifts according to the law: Who serve unto the example and shadow of heavenly things..." (Hebrews 8:5)"For the law made nothing perfect, but the bringing in of a better hope did; by the which we draw nigh unto God." (Hebrews 7:19) hmmm...as I read through some of the posts, many (if not all) of this has already been shared, but I think it isn't bad to bring it up again. If we're saying that the Spirit of God already dwelled in the OT-saints, where do we draw the line? Are we going to say that even OT-saints were "children of God" in the NT-kind of way. For which purpose did Jesus come then? Why did the prophets longed to see His day? COuld OT-saints call God their Father?

DezcallI think I am saying pretty much what you are saying. You may have noticed that I never used the word 'saved'; this was not an accident. Nor did I say that John Baptist did not go to heaven. I was simply saying that he was not in the kingdom, because although the greatest, he was only 'born of woman'.John Baptist was not in the kingdom at the moment of Christ's comment; in fact the only person who knew the kingdom in its fulness at that time was Christ Himself. I'm sure John Baptist is in the Kingdom now.I think one of the distinguishing features between the covenants is that the OT saints always looked forwards to 'eternal life' whereas the NT saints receives 'eternal life' here and now. Heaven would not be 'perfect' without them. I am looking forward to meeting them and thanking them for their lives and witness.You ask some important questions, but the pattern of this particular thread is to ask questions rather than answer them. :-D

Br. Ron wrote:Now what are we to make of this statement? The phrase ‘born of woman’ is clearly the key. There are those that are ‘born of woman’ and those that are ‘born of the Spirit’.Jesus said to Nicodemus:12 If I have told you earthly things and you do not believe, how will you believe if I tell you heavenly things? 13 No one has ascended to heaven but He who came down from heaven, that is, the Son of Man who is in heaven.What is Jesus teaching us here? Has anyone born of a woman ascended to heaven at this point in time? Paul teaches: 47 The first man was of the earth, made of dust; the second Man is the Lord from heaven. 48 As was the man of dust, so also are those who are made of dust; and as is the heavenly Man, so also are those who are heavenly. 49 And as we have borne the image of the man of dust, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly Man.No one ascended into Heaven until He who descended was raised up as a Heavenly Man. So what heavenly bodies existed in heaven prior to Christ descending to earth? In ChristJeff

What is Jesus teaching us here? Has anyone born of a woman ascended to heaven at this point in time? More questions but still no answers as to what Jesus meant by saying that John Baptist was not in the kingdom. Surely this passage is simply referring to the unique authority of Christ to speak of these things. I would understand it as a statement that 'no man has ascended up into heaven' and no man, consequently can speak of heavenly things but Christ who knows heaven and its realities personally. His origin autheticates his revelation. No one ascended into Heaven until He who descended was raised up as a Heavenly Man. So what heavenly bodies existed in heaven prior to Christ descending to earth?Other than, perhaps, Enoch and Elijah? Christ also spoke with Moses and Elijah, apparently both in bodies, on the Mount of Transfiguration. As far as I know none other than these two has ever 'ascended up' into heaven. This is not going to heaven when we die, but a unique transportation to heaven while still in the body.ps Now John was ‘filled with the Spirit from his mother’s womb’ but was still only ever ‘born of woman’. Please explain to me how my text can be interpreted in any other way than the one which I have given.

Br. Ron wrote:More questions but still no answers as to what Jesus meant by saying that John Baptist was not in the kingdom. Surely this passage is simply referring to the unique authority of Christ to speak of these things. I would understand it as a statement that 'no man has ascended up into heaven' and no man, consequently can speak of heavenly things but Christ who knows heaven and its realities personally. His origin autheticates his revelation. Is not Christ speaking in the same manner in John 3 as He does in Mat 11. Jesus compares Himself to man born of a woman. You see your thoughts about Elijah, Enoch, Moses, and don't forget about Samuel are not clear here. Either these men are in Abraham's bosom or they are in Heaven. Yet you try to say that they are not in heaven based on what Matthew 11:11 states. Could you please clarify what you mean in terms of Enoch, Moses, Elijah? Are you saying that they are in heaven but not in the kingdom of God?In ChristJeff

Just another thought:Matt. 25:34 Then the King will say to those on His right hand, “Come, you blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:When do we recieve this promise? When does Abraham recieve this promise? For Scripture says:Luke 13:28 There will be weeping and gnashing of teeth, when you see Abraham and Isaac and Jacob and all the prophets in the kingdom of God, and yourselves thrust out. 29 They will come from the east and the west, from the north and the south, and sit down in the kingdom of God.In ChristJeff

Just another thought:Matt. 25:34 Then the King will say to those on His right hand, “Come, you blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:When do we recieve this promise? When does Abraham recieve this promise? For Scripture says:Luke 13:28 There will be weeping and gnashing of teeth, when you see Abraham and Isaac and Jacob and all the prophets in the kingdom of God, and yourselves thrust out. 29 They will come from the east and the west, from the north and the south, and sit down in the kingdom of God.In ChristJeff

Could you please clarify what you mean in terms of Enoch, Moses, Elijah? Are you saying that they are in heaven but not in the kingdom of God?I am saying that they were not in the kingdom of heaven at the time that Christ said John was not in the kingdom of heaven.Yet you try to say that they are not in heaven based on what Matthew 11:11 states.{/quote] Perhaps you could point me to the place where I said this?

rookie wrote:Just another thought:Matt. 25:34 Then the King will say to those on His right hand, “Come, you blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:When do we recieve this promise? When does Abraham recieve this promise? For Scripture says:Luke 13:28 There will be weeping and gnashing of teeth, when you see Abraham and Isaac and Jacob and all the prophets in the kingdom of God, and yourselves thrust out. 29 They will come from the east and the west, from the north and the south, and sit down in the kingdom of God.Now you are getting there. They had not entered the kingdom of God while there were on earth because the Kingdom of God is only entered by regeneration. For them the 'kingdom' was still a future event; Mat 19:28 KJV And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.This reference to the 'regeneration' is wholly future at this point, and is a reference to the cosmic regeneration. When personal regeneration became possible people began to experience the powers of the coming age Heb 6:5 NASB and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come,And indeed we shall (and do) see "Abraham and Isaac and Jacob and all the prophets in the kingdom of God". Heb 12:22-23 NASB But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to myriads of angels, (23) to the general assembly and church of the firstborn who are enrolled in heaven, and to God, the Judge of all, and to the spirits of the righteous made perfect,

Br. Ron wrote:This reference to the 'regeneration' is wholly future at this point, and is a reference to the cosmic regeneration. When personal regeneration became possible people began to experience the powers of the coming age Heb 6:5 NASB and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come,I do not see this regeneration that you speak of as being born again. This regeneration it taught by Paul in 1 Corinthians 15:1Cor. 15:40 There are also celestial bodies and terrestrial bodies; but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another. 41 There is one glory of the sun, another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars; for one star differs from another star in glory. 1Cor. 15:42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. The body is sown in corruption, it is raised in incorruption. 43 It is sown in dishonor, it is raised in glory. It is sown in weakness, it is raised in power. 44 It is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body. 45 And so it is written, “The first man Adam became a living being.” The last Adam became a life-giving spirit. 1Cor. 15:46 However, the spiritual is not first, but the natural, and afterward the spiritual. 47 The first man was of the earth, made of dust; the second Man is the Lord from heaven. 48 As was the man of dust, so also are those who are made of dust; and as is the heavenly Man, so also are those who are heavenly. 49 And as we have borne the image of the man of dust, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly Man.1Cor. 15:50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; nor does corruption inherit incorruption. Jesus teaches Nicodemus:12 If I have told you earthly things and you do not believe, how will you believe if I tell you heavenly things? Being born again is an earthly precept. Man still has the corrupt body of flesh. It is the Spirit that counsels the earthly man in this life. It is the Spirit that gives man a new heart. Yet this is still not what Paul teaches of about the ressurection. 1Cor. 15:50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; nor does corruption inherit incorruption. 51 Behold, I tell you a mystery: We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed— 52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. 53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. 54 So when this corruptible has put on incorruption, and this mortal has put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written: “Death is swallowed up in victory.”Hebrew 11:Heb. 11:39 And all these, having obtained a good testimony through faith, did not receive the promise, 40 God having provided something better for us, that they should not be made perfect apart from us. In ChristJeff

I do not see this regeneration that you speak of as being born again. This regeneration it taught by Paul in 1 Corinthians 15:Neither do I.

Hi Jeff,Are you suggesting that the born again experience is actually the first resurrection? Sorry if you have already answered this before.

Br. Robert wrote:Are you suggesting that the born again experience is actually the first resurrection? Sorry if you have already answered this before. No. I guess there is some confusion based on my last few posts. Br Ron posted the Scripture where Jesus says that John the Baptist is the greatest of men born of woman, yet the least of those in the kingdom of heaven are greater than he. I thought that Br. Ron was using this Scripture to teach that no one in the OT up to the time of John had been born from above. I then sought to explain that all OT saints dwelled in the bosom of Abraham and that no one had ascended into heaven except the Son of Man who first descended from heaven. I sought to explain when Jesus was teaching Nicodemus that being born again was a earthly precept. I sought to explain that no one is perfect until they are resurrected as Paul explains in 1 Corinthians 15. So I differentiate between our born again nature here in the corrupt body, and our spiritual body given to us when we are ressurected. In ChristJeff

I have been searching in Scripture for thoughts pretaining to priests, shepherds, and judges. What I am finding is that God has chosen men and women through out the generations to oversee His flock. The relationship between God and overseer is instrumental in His kingdom. Even in Revelation we are given the thought that God sets up angels (messengers) over His churches. Rev 2 and 3.From beginning to end in Scripture God speaks to those He has chosen to lead His flocks in all generations. This is part of the ancient path that we hear of in Scripture. Listen to these verses which speak of the generation where God called His priests Moses and Aaron to be overseers.Isaiah 63:8 \tFor He said, “Surely they are My people,\tChildren who will not lie.”\tSo He became their Savior. 9 \tIn all their affliction He was afflicted,\tAnd the Angel of His Presence saved them;\tIn His love and in His pity He redeemed them;\tAnd He bore them and carried them\tAll the days of old. 10 \tBut they rebelled and grieved His Holy Spirit;\tSo He turned Himself against them as an enemy,\tAnd He fought against them. 11 \tThen he remembered the days of old,\tMoses and his people, saying:\t“Where is He who brought them up out of the sea\tWith the shepherd of His flock?\tWhere is He who put His Holy Spirit within them, 12 \tWho led them by the right hand of Moses,\tWith His glorious arm,\tDividing the water before them\tTo make for Himself an everlasting name, 13 \tWho led them through the deep,\tAs a horse in the wilderness,\tThat they might not stumble?” 14 \tAs a beast goes down into the valley,\tAnd the Spirit of the LORD causes him to rest,\tSo You lead Your people,\tTo make Yourself a glorious name. 15 \tLook down from heaven,\tAnd see from Your habitation, holy and glorious.\tWhere are Your zeal and Your strength,\tThe yearning of Your heart and Your mercies toward me?\tAre they restrained? 16 \tDoubtless You are our Father,\tThough Abraham was ignorant of us,\tAnd Israel does not acknowledge us.\tYou, O LORD, are our Father;\tOur Redeemer from Everlasting is Your name. John 1:John 1:10 He was in the world, and the world was made through Him, and the world did not know Him. 11 He came to His own, and His own did not receive Him. 12 But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, to those who believe in His name: 13 who were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God. What does it mean to be "born of God?" I see this precept throughtout Scripture. In ChristJeff

I thought that Br. Ron was using this Scripture to teach that no one in the OT up to the time of John had been born from above.I was.

Br. Ron wrote:I was.How can you make that implication based on Scripture?In ChristJeff

Returning to Isaiah 63:15 \tLook down from heaven,\tAnd see from Your habitation, holy and glorious.\tWhere are Your zeal and Your strength,\tThe yearning of Your heart and Your mercies toward me?\tAre they restrained? 16 \tDoubtless You are our Father,\tThough Abraham was ignorant of us,\tAnd Israel does not acknowledge us.\tYou, O LORD, are our Father;\tOur Redeemer from Everlasting is Your name. If God is their Father, the One who is Redeemer from Everlasting, then they must be His sons and daughters. Remember what John says about who is His children.John 1:12 But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, to those who believe in His name: 13 who were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God. Only those "who were born,...but of God," are His children. Isaiah 64:8 \tBut now, O LORD,\tYou are our Father;\tWe are the clay, and You our potter;\tAnd all we are the work of Your hand. What does it mean to be His work? He obviously is not speaking of the flesh or the carnal mind. These things are corrupt. Everyone knows that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God. In ChristJeff

How can you make that implication based on Scripture?Everything I have ever written or preached on SermonIndex is part of this conviction. As I didn't convince you the first time around, it is unlikely that I will succeed the second time around.Were you thinking of answering my question about John Baptist?

What does it mean to be His work? He obviously is not speaking of the flesh or the carnal mind. These things are corrupt. Everyone knows that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God.Where does the OT talk about 'inherting the kingdom'. Your conclusions are the inevitable consequence of reasoning backwards.

Hi Ron,I've been biteing my lip but must say i admire your patience...I dont think that you will get your John baptist answer :-) maybe just another side track!!

Br Delboy wrote:I've been biteing my lip but must say i admire your patience...I dont think that you will get your John baptist answerI did answer. All men born of women had not entered the kingdom of heaven because Christ had not died on the cross. Jesus is standing before the crowd and asking what did they come to see when they went out to see John the Baptist. Jesus is the only heavenly man that existed at that time. Remember that all men prior to Jesus who died lived in the bosom of Abraham and not heaven. No one has ascended into heaven except who?What does this mean when Jesus teaches Nicodemus?13 No one has ascended to heaven but He who came down from heaven, that is, the Son of Man who is in heaven. Heb 1:10 And:\t“You, LORD, in the beginning laid the foundation of the earth,\tAnd the heavens are the work of Your hands.11 \tThey will perish, but You remain;\tAnd they will all grow old like a garment;12 \tLike a cloak You will fold them up,\tAnd they will be changed.\tBut You are the same,\tAnd Your years will not fail.”AlsoPhil. 2:5 Let this mind be in you which was also in Christ Jesus, 6 who, being in the form of God, did not consider it robbery to be equal with God, 7 but made Himself of no reputation, taking the form of a bondservant, and coming in the likeness of men. 8 And being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself and became obedient to the point of death, even the death of the cross. 9 Therefore God also has highly exalted Him and given Him the name which is above every name, 10 that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of those in heaven, and of those on earth, and of those under the earth, 11 and that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father. Do you understand how Jesus and all other beings that are heavenly are superior to man who has not been ressurected? Listen again to Paul teach about the corrupt flesh and that no man can exist in heaven until God changes his corrupt body into a heavenly body. Remember you and and I as long as we live are living in a corrupt body. It is only when we are raised from the dead by God do we receive the promise of the heavenly body. 1Cor. 15:20 But now Christ is risen from the dead, and has become the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep. 21 For since by man came death, by Man also came the resurrection of the dead. 22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ all shall be made alive. 23 But each one in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, afterward those who are Christ’s at His coming. According to Scripture when will you and I be made alive and what do we inherit? My contention is with those who teach that when we are born again we immediately become a heavenly man perfected. Being born of the Spirit is a earthly precept. Being ressurrected with a heavenly body is a heavenly precept. The Scripture that is always sighted about John is actually comparing the difference between corrupt man and the glory of Christ.In ChristJeff

I did answer. All men born of women had not entered the kingdom of heaven because Christ had not died on the cross.So how does this square with your oft repeated assertion that Christ's death on the cross was equally effective for all saints whether they lived before the event or after it? and that consequently there is no difference between their experience and that of new covenant?

My contention is with those who teach that when we are born again we immediately become a heavenly man perfected. I never met anyone who believed this, did you?

Br Ron wroteSo how does this square with your oft repeated assertion that Christ's death on the cross was equally effective for all saints whether they lived before the event or after it? and that consequently there is no difference between their experience and that of new covenant?The work done on the cross opens the door to heaven which had been shut since the first man Adam transgressed. Br. Ron you are a student of the OT Scriptures, tell me did Christ redeem these people? Isaiah 44:21 \t“Remember these, O Jacob,\tAnd Israel, for you are My servant;\tI have formed you, you are My servant;\tO Israel, you will not be forgotten by Me! 22 \tI have blotted out, like a thick cloud, your transgressions,\tAnd like a cloud, your sins.\tReturn to Me, for I have redeemed you.” 23 \tSing, O heavens, for the LORD has done it!\tShout, you lower parts of the earth;\tBreak forth into singing, you mountains,\tO forest, and every tree in it!\tFor the LORD has redeemed Jacob,\tAnd glorified Himself in Israel. 24 \tThus says the LORD, your Redeemer,\tAnd He who formed you from the womb:\t“I am the LORD, who makes all things,\tWho stretches out the heavens all alone,\tWho spreads abroad the earth by Myself; Or Isaiah 43:7 \tEveryone who is called by My name,\tWhom I have created for My glory;\tI have formed him, yes, I have made him.” 8 \tBring out the blind people who have eyes,\tAnd the deaf who have ears. 9 \tLet all the nations be gathered together,\tAnd let the people be assembled.\tWho among them can declare this,\tAnd show us former things?\tLet them bring out their witnesses, that they may be justified;\tOr let them hear and say, “It is truth.” 10 \t“You are My witnesses,” says the LORD,\t“And My servant whom I have chosen,\tThat you may know and believe Me,\tAnd understand that I am He.\tBefore Me there was no God formed,\tNor shall there be after Me. Are these people redeemed by Christ? Are these people the sons and daughters of God? If they are sons then they too will have the fruit of the Spirit that gives them the things of Christ. In ChristJeff

Did you notice my last question?

I have found that many take one verse and apply it to the doctrine that they try to prove. The Jehova Witnesses are a perfect example of this technique. These individuals have been trained by generations of men to argue a point based on one or two Scriptures. They are very well versed in the technique, yet when you ask them questions as to how other Scripture adds to the underlying precepts they are at a loss and further more will not entertain any thoughts for fear of seeing that they may not have the truth. The questions I submit with many Scriptures are done to try to open doors that have been shut by the scribes of this world. Paul taught the whole counsel of God. All Scripture is part of that counsil. Yet the dispensationalist carve and cut up the Holy Scriptures. They say this applies but this doesn't. Jesus is present thoughtout the generations. Here is an example:Isaiah 44:6 \t“Thus says the LORD, the King of Israel,\tAnd his Redeemer, the LORD of hosts:\t‘I am the First and I am the Last;\tBesides Me there is no God. Look at this title, a Jehova Witness would be bound to say that this is God Almighty. Yet I say that this is not just Hebrew poetic prose or what you want to call it, but it is the Father and the Son that are mentioned here. Does not the writings of Paul or Peter resemble those of Isaiah when writing about the Lord?Eph. 1:2 Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ. Phil. 1:2 Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ. 1Pet. 1:3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, Do you see Christ in OT Scripture?In ChristJeff

Br Ron wrote:Did you notice my last question?Won't you please clearly state your teaching on this Scripture. Please identify the significance that you seem to place on the thought "men born of women." Please state who is in the kingdom of God when Jesus speaks of John the Baptist. What does it mean that since the time of John men are pressing into the kingdom or men take it with violence? Please teach me how this Scripture is related to being "born from above?" In ChristJeff

Did you notice my last question?

Br. Ron wrote"I never met anyone who believed this, did you?In reference to what I wrote, do you remember when you claimed that you were perfect in one of the other threads, and the discussion was pretaining to this Scripture:Heb. 11:40 God having provided something better for us, that they should not be made perfect apart from us. We discussed it until I pointed out Paul's position stated in Phil. 3:12 Not that I have already attained, or am already perfected; but I press on, that I may lay hold of that for which Christ Jesus has also laid hold of me. 13 Brethren, I do not count myself to have apprehended; but one thing I do, forgetting those things which are behind and reaching forward to those things which are ahead, 14 I press toward the goal for the prize of the upward call of God in Christ Jesus. You did not respond to that point. So do you teach that perfection comes when one is born again?In ChristJeff

So do you teach that perfection comes when one is born again?Sorry to be dropping in here guys, but what do you mean by 'perfection'? Are we talking about perfection in terms of the work of the blood of Jesus Christ or some other attainable perfection?

So I am the one you think believes in the instant perfection of the heavenly man on regeneration? I believe in perfect regeneration. As regards the perfection of the heavenly man, I am not at all sure what you mean by that, but I am presuming you mean as perfect as we will be in heaven? How could this be when we do not have our resurrection bodies? Please find the thread and lets see what I said. I believe that when a person is genuinely born again they are genuinely born AGAIN. I believe at that time they become members of a new covenant in which God removes the old heart and puts in a heart of flesh and in which God both renews their spirit and gives them His Spirit.Robert is right in that I really don't understand what you are talking about when you use this phrase about a perfect heavenly man.

This was the threadhttps://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=3048&forum=35&179page 8Quote:David knew his covenant was secure and that He would make it increase. When a man in the Scriptures reveals this hope it is only because God has given him the promise. These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth. (Heb 11:13 KJV)This was the position of Job.And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise: God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect. (Heb 11:39-40 KJV)This is the position of Job._________________His/YoursRon BThen I asked have you received this promise. Then you replied:Quote:Have you received this particular promise that this verse is speaking of?The city whose builder and maker is God? Yes, I was born there.Yea, of Zion it shall be said, This one and that one was born in her; And the Most High himself will establish her.(Psa 87:5 ASV)But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all. (Gal 4:26 KJV)If you have not already read it I recommend The Holy City by T Austin Sparks._________________His/YoursRon BThen you wrote:Quote:Have you been made perfect?Yes, and I am going on to perfection too. Quote:"So Jesus said to them, "Assuredly I say to you, that in the regeneration, when the Son of Man sits on the throne of His glory, you who have followed Me will also sit on the twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel." Matthew 19:28Both the Jew and the gentile will be made perfect at one time, at the time of the regeneration. I don't know about you, but I have already ... tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world(age) to come, (Heb 6:4-5 KJV)and, I'm told, that heaven is even better than this._________________His/YoursRon BIn ChristJeff

In Hebrews 11 we are given the definition of faith, and then the evidence of that faith. The evidence is created by God when He gives His grace to the men and women listed in Chapter 11. At the end of the chapter we have this verse:Heb. 11:39 And all these, having obtained a good testimony through faith, did not receive the promise, 40 God having provided something better for us, that they should not be made perfect apart from us. What is the substance of the promise spoken of in verse 39?In ChristJeff

Heb 11:12 Therefore from one man, and him as good as dead, were born as many as the stars of the sky in multitude—innumerable as the sand which is by the seashore. When the writer of Hebrews states this fact, he says that many were born. He is identifying those who are born of the free woman. Gal. 4:21 Tell me, you who desire to be under the law, do you not hear the law? 22 For it is written that Abraham had two sons: the one by a bondwoman, the other by a freewoman. 23 But he who was of the bondwoman was born according to the flesh, and he of the freewoman through promise, 24 which things are symbolic. For these are the two covenants: the one from Mount Sinai which gives birth to bondage, which is Hagar— 25 for this Hagar is Mount Sinai in Arabia, and corresponds to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children— 26 but the Jerusalem above is free, which is the mother of us all. Now see these next words:Gal. 4:28 Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are children of promise. So who is the writer refering to in Hebrews verse 11? All those mentioned in Chapter 11, are they of the bondwoman or the free woman. Who are they born of?What is the nature of this birth, is it of flesh or Spirit?In ChristJeff

For what it is worth, here are some random thoughts on the subject. Biblically and logically if Spirit does not indwell a person, they are not born again at all whether they are looking forward to the work of the Messiah (OT saints) or back to the work of the Messiah (NT saints). One is born again as the Spirit blows (John 3).Nor can one live a life of faith or righteousness (Rom 14:23; Rom 8). Sepcifically Abraham believed God (faith is a gift {Eph 2:8-9}) and he was was reckoned righteous (Gen 15:6; Rom 4:3, Gal 3:16, Jms 2:23). Obedience itself is from faith (Rom 1:5) and not our own abilities.If the Spirit did not indwell OT saints then their obedience was in their own abilities and this is impossible as one is dead in sin (Eph 2:5). So one is dead until animated by the Spirit. All this is hinted at in the Old Testament but made clear in the New. If OT saints are not born again, indwelt by the Spirit then there are two modes of salvation - works in OT which glorifies man; faith in NT which glories God). Lastly, the Hebrew preposion can be translated in or on.

For what it is worth, here are some random thoughts on the subject. Biblically and logically if Spirit does not indwell a person, they are not born again at all whether they are looking forward to the work of the Messiah (OT saints) or back to the work of the Messiah (NT saints). One is born again as the Spirit blows (John 3).Nor can one live a life of faith or righteousness (Rom 14:23; Rom 8). Sepcifically Abraham believed God (faith is a gift {Eph 2:8-9}) and he was was reckoned righteous (Gen 15:6; Rom 4:3, Gal 3:16, Jms 2:23). Obedience itself is from faith (Rom 1:5) and not our own abilities.If the Spirit did not indwell OT saints then their obedience was in their own abilities and this is impossible as one is dead in sin (Eph 2:5). So one is dead until animated by the Spirit. All this is hinted at in the Old Testament but made clear in the New. If OT saints are not born again, indwelt by the Spirit then there are two modes of salvation - works in OT which glorifies man; faith in NT which glories God). Lastly, the Hebrew preposion can be translated in or on.

and, I'm told, that heaven is even better than this.I happily stand by all this, but where is the reference to the 'heavenly man' that you made?I believe in a creator who only creates perfect things. Day 1 was perfect, Day 2 was perfect... I am a new creation. How could God create anything that was not perfect at every point in the creation process?

Lastly, the Hebrew preposion can be translated in or on.which preposition are you referring to?Num 11:26 KJV But there remained two of the men in the camp, the name of the one was Eldad, and the name of the other Medad: and the spirit rested upon them; and they were of them that were written, but went not out unto the tabernacle: and they prophesied in the camp.In this typical example the word 'upon' is 'al'.H5921על‛alBDB Definition:1) upon, on the ground of, according to, on account of, on behalf of, concerning, beside, in addition to, together with, beyond, above, over, by, on to, towards, to, against (preposition)1a) upon, on the ground of, on the basis of, on account of, because of, therefore, on behalf of, for the sake of, for, with, in spite of, notwithstanding, concerning, in the matter of, as regards1b) above, beyond, over (of excess)1c) above, over (of elevation or pre-eminence)1d) upon, to, over to, unto, in addition to, together with, with (of addition)1e) over (of suspension or extension)1f) by, adjoining, next, at, over, around (of contiguity or proximity)1g) down upon, upon, on, from, up upon, up to, towards, over towards, to, against (with verbs of motion)1h) to (as a dative)2) because that, because, notwithstanding, although (conjunction)Part of Speech: see above in DefinitionA Related Word by BDB/Strong’s Number: properly, the same as H5920 used as a preposition (in the singular or plural often with prefix, or as conjunction with a particle following)Same Word by TWOT Number: 1624p

Nor can one live a life of faith or righteousness (Rom 14:23; Rom 8). Sepcifically Abraham believed God (faith is a gift {Eph 2:8-9}) and he was was reckoned righteous (Gen 15:6; Rom 4:3, Gal 3:16, Jms 2:23). Obedience itself is from faith (Rom 1:5) and not our own abilities.Are you making no distinction between the biblical doctrine of justification and that of regeneration?

Br Ron,Man is depraved. He cannot please God through a faith that comes from within himself. You must not resist what Scripture says. The door will remain locked if you persist in glorifying man. The key is there are you willing to believe?Listen for His voice, do not resist. His voice is either convicting or confirming what is going on in your heart. Listen.In ChristJeff

Man is depraved. He cannot please God through a faith that comes from within himself. You must not resist what Scripture says. The door will remain locked if you persist in glorifying man. The key is there are you willing to believe?I have absolutely no idea what you are talking about.

Matt. 13:10 And the disciples came and said to Him, “Why do You speak to them in parables?” Matt. 13:11 He answered and said to them, “Because it has been given to you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it has not been given. 12 For whoever has, to him more will be given, and he will have abundance; but whoever does not have, even what he has will be taken away from him. 13 Therefore I speak to them in parables, because seeing they do not see, and hearing they do not hear, nor do they understand. 14 And in them the prophecy of Isaiah is fulfilled, which says:\t“Hearing you will hear and shall not understand,\tAnd seeing you will see and not perceive;15 \tFor the hearts of this people have grown dull.\tTheir ears are hard of hearing,\tAnd their eyes they have closed,\tLest they should see with their eyes and hear with their ears,\tLest they should understand with their hearts and turn,\tSo that I should heal them.’The reason for Jesus teaching in parables was to put a choice before each one of us. Do we really want to know what the parable means or do we choose not to ask? His disciples wanted to know and thus Jesus revealed the meaning to them. In like manner, we are given this example so that we too may cry out to God, Jesus teach me what this parable means! By this submission to the Savior, He is faithful to teach those who cry out and are willing to listen. Likewise there are those who do not want to know. 12 For whoever has, to him more will be given, and he will have abundance; but whoever does not have, even what he has will be taken away from him.The word of God springs up as a tender plant, the seed is born, yet in some, due to trial or cares for this world it is choked out and does not become fruitful, "even what he has will be taken away from him."God is faithful.In ChristJeff

Likewise there are those who do not want to know. So are you saying I don't want to know? I'm sorry but I still don't understand what you are saying.

Brother Ron,Living in the New Covenant means that God will teach each one of us. Have you learned from God in this way? Have you heard His voice? In ChristJeff

Living in the New Covenant means that God will teach each one of us. Have you learned from God in this way? Have you heard His voice?Is this a personal question?

We find in Scripture that it is possible for God's people to become dull of hearing. This is true in the OT and NT. Is. 6:10 \t“Make the heart of this people dull,\tAnd their ears heavy,\tAnd shut their eyes;\tLest they see with their eyes,\tAnd hear with their ears,\tAnd understand with their heart,\tAnd return and be healed.” Heb 5:9 And having been perfected, He became the author of eternal salvation to all who obey Him, 10 called by God as High Priest “according to the order of Melchizedek,” 11 of whom we have much to say, and hard to explain, since you have become dull of hearing. We may have the Spirit in us, yet we can also be dull of hearing. Paul writes to the Thesalonians:2Th. 2:10 and with all unrighteous deception among those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth, that they might be saved. Many perish because they did not "receive the love of the truth." This love for the truth comes from heaven. This love for the truth comes with costs. Listen to the words of Jesus.Matt. 10:34 “Do not think that I came to bring peace on earth. I did not come to bring peace but a sword. 35 For I have come to “set a man against his father, a daughter against her mother, and a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law’; 36 and “a man’s enemies will be those of his own household.’ 37 He who loves father or mother more than Me is not worthy of Me. And he who loves son or daughter more than Me is not worthy of Me. 38 And he who does not take his cross and follow after Me is not worthy of Me. 39 He who finds his life will lose it, and he who loses his life for My sake will find it.This love for the truth sacrifices all things and overcomes this world. I do not only speak to you Br. Ron but all who see what the Scriptures say and yet don't embrace them. The reason many do not embrace them is because the love of the truth will cost them everything. 39 He who finds his life will lose it, and he who loses his life for My sake will find it.These are spiritual principles that are promised to those who experience God placing His laws in our hearts. The love for His laws comes from heaven. Brother Ron wrote:Is this a personal question?I cannot judge my master's servant. I only ask that you ask Him whom you serve. He is faithful. His grace is free to all who will come near. Believe every word that proceeds from His mouth and He will set a table for you in the midst of your enemies. 5 \tYou prepare a table before me in the presence of my enemies;\tYou anoint my head with oil;\tMy cup runs over. This is a New Covenant promise do you hear?In ChristJeff

JeffThis is a New Covenant promise do you hear?I often have difficulty understanding the point that you are making but this seems quite bizarre. I can't think why you would choose a public forum to ask this question. I have no idea what you 'want me to ask Him'.Are you asking me do I enjoy a New Covenant experience in which my heart is fully accessible to God for Him to speak His word into. I can answer in good conscience. God is faithful to all His promises. Of course, I hear His voice in my heart. It is tantamount to my definition of being a child of God. Are you asking me has he removed the heart of stone and given me a heart of flesh, again I answer in good conscience. God is faithful to all His promises. He has given me a new spirit and caused His own Spirit to dwell within. Do I find Him a perfect Saviour? Yes, Yes, Yes ,Yes.. a thousand times Yes. Has He brought me into His banqueting hall? Yes, a thousand times, Yes. Is He able to keep me from falling? Yes, a thousand times Yes.I still have no idea why you have taken this course of action. Are you following the same theme as Jimm and Ironman in concluding that my contributions to these posts are 'book learning'? If I told you how much of these contributions come direct to my spirit from the Spirit who inspired them you would accuse me of boasting. I do not add 'the Spirit told me so' to every sentence, but I never write without a calm conviction that I am hearing His voice in my spirit.Let me give you an illustration. If a man flies in a gas filled baloon he will become part of the weather system that he enters. From outside the watchers may observe violent storms and high speed winds but he will be oblivious to them. Only as he enters or leaves the weather system will he experience the shock of the change. The same is true of a man in a current of water. Many a man has been swept to his death because he had no consciousness of the current he had become part of. So it is with the life in the Spirit. A man may be powerfully conscious as he enters but if he remains 'in the flow' the life of the Spirit will become 'natural' to him and no struggle. God bapstised me into this Spirit and, by his grace, I live there... without effort.

Are you following the same theme as Jimm and Ironman in concluding that my contributions to these posts are 'book learning'?How that conclusion came about is still beyond me even after almost a day since I first read that particular thread. I think there has to be a consciousness that this forum (even with all the emoticons) is so much different than meeting the person face to face. But allow me to say this explicitly even as I beg to disagree - Bro. Ron's love for God's truth has been such a tremendous blessing. In fact, I have learned so much more at what he doesn't do and say in this forum.[Edit: Just want to be more clear- Even in his silence he still speaks God's truth]If I told you how much of these contributions come direct to my spirit from the Spirit who inspired them you would accuse me of boasting. I do not add 'the Spirit told me so' to every sentence, but I never write without a calm conviction that I am hearing His voice in my spirit.Fire doesn't need to be advertised. It is self-evident. Truth is, if somebody always says "the Spirit told me" I always listen with extreme caution.

Br. Ron,Here is Scripture pretaining to God placing His law in the hearts of His people. Tell me if these people have His covenant? Has God given His oath the New Covenant to these people?Isaiah 514 \t“Listen to Me, My people;\tAnd give ear to Me, O My nation:\tFor law will proceed from Me,\tAnd I will make My justice rest\tAs a light of the peoples. 5 \tMy righteousness is near,\tMy salvation has gone forth,\tAnd My arms will judge the peoples;\tThe coastlands will wait upon Me,\tAnd on My arm they will trust. 6 \tLift up your eyes to the heavens,\tAnd look on the earth beneath.\tFor the heavens will vanish away like smoke,\tThe earth will grow old like a garment,\tAnd those who dwell in it will die in like manner;\tBut My salvation will be forever,\tAnd My righteousness will not be abolished. 7 \t“Listen to Me, you who know righteousness,\tYou people in whose heart is My law:\tDo not fear the reproach of men,\tNor be afraid of their insults. In these verses, God's salvation has gone forth and His law resides in the heart of His people. This is written to the OT saints. They have received the oath of God. This does not represent the covenant made on Mount Sinai.What say you?In ChristJeff

I still have no idea why you have taken this course of action. Are you following the same theme as Jimm and Ironman in concluding that my contributions to these posts are 'book learning'? If I told you how much of these contributions come direct to my spirit from the Spirit who inspired them you would accuse me of boasting. I do not add 'the Spirit told me so' to every sentence, but I never write without a calm conviction that I am hearing His voice in my spirit.As I mentioned on another thread, it does not have to be one or the other. And yet, you will take fire from someone no matter what you do. The one will chide for the 'boasting' the other will chide for the 'book learning.' It is the nature of the contrasts we see in folks presuppositions. It is just sad that we have to guard ourselves against such accusations.

I ask do you hear? This is the question that the Lord caused me to struggle with. I can only teach by the means that the Lord has taught me. For me one of the keys that opened a large door was when I finally accepted what Paul was teaching in Romans 3. When I accepted the words that speak of the condition of men in Scripture, a wealth of Scripture was opened to me. The depravity of men is taught throughtout Scripture. I struggled for the first 3 years of my life with that precept. Once I chose to hear what Scripture taught me, I was freed from the war that raged inside me. The words, " Do you hear?" are always before me. Jesus taught:Mark 4:21 Also He said to them, “Is a lamp brought to be put under a basket or under a bed? Is it not to be set on a lampstand? 22 For there is nothing hidden which will not be revealed, nor has anything been kept secret but that it should come to light. 23 If anyone has ears to hear, let him hear.”Mark 4:24 Then He said to them, “Take heed what you hear. With the same measure you use, it will be measured to you; and to you who hear, more will be given. I have experienced this precept. As I hear I give and more is given. What I have learned is that we hold onto doctrines of men that keep the door locked. Brother Ron you only want to discuss from the NT Scriptures, but I tell you again that the mysteries of God highlighted in the NT are revealed in the OT Scriptures. I cannot discuss subjects like this one, "the indwelling of the Holy Spirit," by cutting out the OT. I have puposely asked you Do you Hear because that was a choice I had to make about 5 years ago. Since learning that lesson from the Lord, I have willingly given up all that man teaches when I discover that it doesn't "line up" with the WHOLE COUNSEL OF GOD. The choice is always before us, "Do we really want to hear what Scripture teaches, or do we love the traditions of men? What I have written about in the year that I have participated in the forum has been learned in this year. Much of what I write comes as I learn. I know that many have complained about not understanding. I can only say and encourage others to read the Scriptures and see if what I am saying is true or not. In ChristJeff

Br Robert wrote:It is the nature of the contrasts we see in folks presuppositions. It is just sad that we have to guard ourselves against such accusations. My intentions are to teach and exhort. Some may be threatened by what I write. It is my hope that many may really come to understand the treasure that we are given in Scripture. What does God's promise really mean when He says, "I will put My laws in your heart."Are our hearts truly being circumcized by the power of the word of God? In ChristJeff

Jeff, you seem to be on a one man crusade in respect of your views, continually people here have responded to your own view that the OT is greater than the NT even when direct scripture is shown to be completly oposite to your stance, you say;Brother Ron you only want to discuss from the NT Scriptures, but I tell you again that the mysteries of God highlighted in the NT are revealed in the OT Scriptures. I cannot discuss subjects like this one, "the indwelling of the Holy Spirit," by cutting out the OT. This is so far from reality.many times Ron has responed clearly to you.Many Many times Ron has posted themes on OT scripture,his Abraham series has been such a blessing to many hereI have posted before on another thread Ron is quite capable of defending his viewpoint,He (Ron) does walk the walk and talk the talkJeff, please desist from your attacks they are wrong :-(

Br. Delboy, I believe by what you have wrote that I did not clearly state what I meant to say. I will try once more.My point is that many will look to the NT Scripture and based on these verses alone, will establish doctrine. Anything taken from the OT is always looked at as being prophesy or deemed not applicable to NT revelations. Many will not search the Scripture, many will not be like the Bereans. Many have become comfortable with doctrines that are 400 years old, generation after generation loosing the passion for searching the Scriptures for themselves. This is not how God intended it to be. Again listen to Jesus.Mark 4:22 For there is nothing hidden which will not be revealed, nor has anything been kept secret but that it should come to light. 23 If anyone has ears to hear, let him hear.”This is His promise yet how many really know the treasure that has freely been given to us in Christ Jesus. How many?From where does Paul teach is it not the OT?Rom. 10:8 But what does it say? “The word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart” (that is, the word of faith which we preach): Rom. 10:17 So then faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God. There is no other way. If I am a lone voice, a one man mission so be it. This only have I learned that faith comes by hearing and the word is near everyone of you too. It is in your mouth in in your heart. In ChristJeff

I have to say Bro. Ron that I for one bear a witness to much of what you say. The teachings you've shared I looked into and can see no flaws. I can't speak for anyothers but for myself as one who's prayed about and for you in the presence of God , I know beyond a shadow of doubt that you speak from the heart of our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ. Just wanted you to know that I keep you in my prayers , may the Lord always lead you in the way of sound doctrine. God Bless Bro. Daryl

I think where the rub is in these threads is that its kinda like preaching to the choir. You make a broad generalization but you need to stop and think about who you're making these statements to. Believe me, those who frequent this site most generally are not those who are sleeping in thier christianity. As to doctrines , we are built upon the foundation of .....Eph 2:19-20 read it. I do understand what you're saying----I think. I'll quote Tozer from His book "the pursuit of God"-------"God is a Person, and in the deep of His mighty nature He thinks, wills, enjoys feels, loves, desires and suffers as any other person may. In making Himself known to us He stays by the familiar pattern of personality. He communicates with us through the avenues of our minds, our wills and our emotions. The continuous and unembarrassed interchange of love and thought between God and the soul of the redeemed man is the throbbing heart of New Testament religion". >>>>> I think you might be confusing the things God reveals to us as individuals by the enlightening process of His Word with standing on sound (healthy) doctrine which the foundation has been laid already-Eph 2. Never the less I do believe as stated in the begining of this , you could just be preaching to the choir, think about Bro.

Just wanted you to know that I keep you in my prayers , may the Lord always lead you in the way of sound doctrine. God Bless Bro. DarylMany, many thanks for those who pray. God bless you too.

Listen to A. W. Tozer if you won't listen to me. I transcribed this from a sermon found on SI. "The man God finds, elects and saves, and gives of His illumination of His Spirit, is not necessarily morally better than the other. I don’t think Jacob was morally better than Esau at all. And I don’t think David was morally better than Saul.I don’t know about Abel and Cain they had the same parents, they had no heredity at all. There were no lines that went back to anywhere, you know they started from scratch. Their parents were the same two people. And their parents had no parents. So they had nothing to inherit. They were two people that did not inherit anything. Except directly from their parents. So they must have been very much alike. But there had happen something to them inside of them and that was what mattered. One of them inside of him was an unregenerate man and his spirit was the spirit of the world. The other man somehow, by some mystery of God, had found the new birth, and that inside of him was the Spirit of God. And so they were sore points one with the other. They couldn’t get along. And yet I don’t think that Abel ever quarreled with Cain. But Abel’s offering was accepted, and Cain said, “That bigot I’ll get him.” He wouldn’t engage him in dialogue, He, he says that he knows God. He says when he offers a lamb God accepts a lamb, and I don’t like that. And so he took him out and killed him. They were two brothers and yet they were two spirits never the less. Contrary spirits, contrary one to the other. Now who are these, who are these, who is this Abel, who is this Jacob, who is eh, eh, David. Who are these? That in the midst of a fallen world, managed somehow to get through. They, they that are touched and ?????? sent. When God lays His hand upon a man, And God calls a man until they hear. And God speaks and rouses them and they wake. And God enlightens them. And God moves upon them. This, this makes a Christian…. He hears that God is calling him. And so that, that touch of God comes on him. He hears that call. My sheep hear My voice. My sheep know My voice. And they follow Me. But the stranger they do not hear. Blessed are they for they shall find mercy said Jesus. Theirs is the kingdom of heaven…."Here is the sermon in full:https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/mydownloads/visit.php?lid=303Some will be blessed by this sermon, others will have their hearts pricked. May we all come to the unity that only exists in Christ Jesus our Lord. In ChristJeff

and none of them were as great as John Baptist for he was the greatest born of woman. Nevertheless he that is least in the Kingdom of God is greater than John.

Take time to just consider Hebrews 11:39-40 you can read the whole chapter if you'd like, but this sums it all up and finishes the whole discussion. The OT saints had a different convenatnt experience and Holy Spirit experience than we do. Read it in as many different versions as you like. Your Bro. in Christ Daryl

Br Ron, Your quote again of John the Baptist as I have clearly explained my postion does not prevent the OT saint from being born from above. You have one Scripture that you deny all posibility that there might be something more to learn. I clearly state that if you would only read the Bible you would find this truth in it. Men always had to be born of the Spirit to be faithful. The Scripture teaches this.Where did A. W. Tozer come up with the OT saints being born from above? I pursue this because you continually deny this precept. Others are swayed to believe as you. Therefore I must contend for the faith. What about A. W. Tozer's teaching? In ChristJeff

Br dozman wrote:Take time to just consider Hebrews 11:39-40 you can read the whole chapter if you'd like, but this sums it all up and finishes the whole discussion.If you read through this thread in its entirety you will find my explaination. I have asked Br Ron this question so I will ask you also. What is the substance of the promise that the writer of Hebrews is refering too. What is the substance? In ChristJeff

I pursue this because you continually deny this precept. Others are swayed to believe as you. Therefore I must contend for the faith. I perceived long ago that you were pursuing me to protect the readers of SI from my influence.I clearly state that if you would only read the Bible you would find this truth in it. Men always had to be born of the Spirit to be faithful. The Scripture teaches this.It is always good advice to read the Bible. I have been doing so now in prayerful meditation for almost 50 years. How long have you been doing this?

Br. Ron wrote:It is always good advice to read the Bible. I have been doing so now in prayerful meditation for almost 50 years. How long have you been doing this?I submitted to my Lord and Savior less than 8 years ago. In ChristJeff

Br. Ron wrote:I perceived long ago that you were pursuing me to protect the readers of SI from my influence.I only pursue those points where I differ with your teaching.If you will notice, I have found Christ and the Holy Spirit in the OT. This is our major point of seperation. Where did A. W. Tozer come to the conclusion that the OT saints were born again?In ChristJeff

I have found Christ and the Holy Spirit in the OT. This is our major point of seperation. Read my Abraham series and then tell me I don't find Christ and the Spirit in the OT.

Back on thread, Psa. 51:6 \tBehold, You desire truth in the inward parts,\tAnd in the hidden part You will make me to know wisdom. Here David speaks of God's work in the inward parts, it is His desire that man have His truth in the heart and mind. And listen to David's faith, "And in the hidden part You will make me to know wisdom." We know that man is depraved. We know that the covenant made on Mount Sinai cannot do this so what does it mean that "God will make?" By what means does God put His laws in David's heart?In ChristJeff

In the OT the saints were equiped or clothed upon for works of service. In the NT we are the temple of God with the IN-Dwelling presence of the Holy Spirit. We are complete in Christ, they were not. If there's no difference between the OT saints and The NT saints than there really was no need of a New Covenant. The New Covenant cleansed our consciences from dead works to serve the living God, no where in the OT is the conscience dealt with in its finiality. The OT was a shadow of things to come. We are the completion of those things. We are Christ or better put little christs in this world i.e."christians". They were a nation of hebrews (under the Old Covenant) who will some day be brought into the New Covenant. As a remnant is being brought in at present now. Re-Read Hebrews 11:39-40 NOte "did not recieve what was promised" , "apart from us". Hebrews is pretty straight forward that there is a difference between old covenant believers and New. What is it your looking for ?

Sorry for jumping in here so late in the day. What is the big differnce between the old and new Covenants when it comes to the Spirit's operations on man?I think that the big difference is that now -'he that is joined to the Lord is one spirit [with him]'. Its not just that the Spirit comes into us. Yes he does. But there is a fundamental change in the recipient of the Spirit. Regeneration.John at one point (while quoting Jesus talking of the rivers of living water) said "this he spoke of the spirit who was yet to be given". What does this mean? There was a giving of the Spirit through the enthroned glorified christ that is above and beyond any anointing for service of any Old Testament Saint. It is above any fellowship of any Old testament saint however sweet and intimate. Because this is a baptism INTO Christ. Literaly.Sorry if i am repeating anyone here, havent had time to read all of the other posts in this ginormous thread.

Sorry if i am repeating anyone here, havent had time to read all of the other posts in this ginormous thread.hi tacoI think you and I are going to find more common ground here than previously on the strength of your first posting! Is is seldom that I say 'amen' at the end of every sentence in a post, but in this case I can.I particularly 'amen' the phrase 'baptism into Christ literally'. :-) There'a another massive thread on the site here The difference bewtwee 'filling' and 'baptism' that you may be interested in.

Br. Dohzman wrote: "did not recieve what was promised" , "apart from us".Again I ask what is the substance of the promise that is spoken of in Hebrew 11:39-40. Have you along with them been made perfect yet?In ChristJeff

Psa. 87:0 A Psalm of the sons of Korah. A Song. Psa. 87:1 \tHis foundation is in the holy mountains. 2 \tThe LORD loves the gates of Zion\tMore than all the dwellings of Jacob. 3 \tGlorious things are spoken of you,\tO city of God!\t\t\t\tSelah4 \t“I will make mention of Rahab and Babylon to those who know Me;\tBehold, O Philistia and Tyre, with Ethiopia:\t‘This one was born there.’|” 5 \tAnd of Zion it will be said,\t“This one and that one were born in her;\tAnd the Most High Himself shall establish her.” 6 \tThe LORD will record,\tWhen He registers the peoples:\t“This one was born there.”\t\t\t\tSelah7 \tBoth the singers and the players on instruments say,\t“All my springs are in you.” Who are these that are born in Zion? What birth is Scripture speaking too?In ChristJeff

And once again, where did A. W. Tozer come up with the thought that Abel, Jacob, and David were regenerate? For those on the West Coast, John MacArthur also teaches that these were regenerate.In ChristJeff

My recollection is that if you listen to the original recording I think you will find that Tozer was somewhat diffident in his assertion that they were regenerate. The term was not of great significance to him. I can't remember the title of the audio file, so I can't point you to it.I have been trying to extract Tozer’s teaching on justification, regeneration and sanctification from a CD of his written works. He clearly distinguished between justification and regeneration. He regards justification as a step prior to regeneration. This would separate him from the Calvinists who believe that precedes justification.This is the most ordinary, basic Christian theology that everyone ought to know. Regeneration takes place within the life of the person, within the heart of the person. It’s a subjective thing; it deals with a person’s nature. It gets inside the person. Because Jesus died in the darkness and because God accepted that as atonement for our sin, if we believe in Christ, God can justify us, declare us righteous and then regenerate us by imparting to us the nature of God. For God tells us that it is through these promises that we are “partakers of the divine nature” (2 Peter 1:4). The Attributes of God, God’s Immanence. P140He seems to have taught this consistentlyA regenerated person is someone who has partaken of the divine nature, who has a new relationship to God which gives that person eternal life. This reunites God and the person and restores some degree of moral likeness to the person. The newest convert who was born again today (born again and regenerate have the same meaning) has a degree of moral likeness to God which gives a measure of comparability. (Attributes of God; When you trust in Christ, you’re regenerated; you’re given a measure of the character of God, so that there is enough of the image restored that there can be quite a full measure of comparability. And that comparability allows God to draw feelingly near to a person. And it makes communion morally consistent. Ibid.He referred to the work of the Holy Spirit in regeneration as the ‘primary work’ and says He then goes on…To purge the stream it was necessary to purify the fountain; and to reform human conduct it is necessary to regenerate human nature. The fundamental be must be sanctified if we would have a righteous do, for being and doing are related as cause and effect, as father and son.\tThe primary work of the Holy Spirit is to restore the lost soul to intimate fellowship with God through the washing of regeneration. To accomplish this He first reveals Christ to the penitent heart (1 Cor. 12:9). He then goes on to illumine the newborn soul with brighter rays from the face of Christ (John 14:26; 16:13-15) and leads the willing heart into depths and heights of divine knowledge and communion. Remember, we know Christ only as the Spirit enables us and we have only as much of Him as the Holy Spirit imparts. (That Incredible Christian. Why the Holy Spirit is given p37.However Tozer believed in the split nature theory.The regenerate man often has a more difficult time of it than the unregenerate, for he is not one man but two. He feels within him a power that tends toward holiness and God, while at the same time he is still a child of Adam’s flesh and a son of the red clay. This moral dualism is to him a source of distress and struggle wholly unknown to the once-born man. Of course the classic critique upon this is Paul’s testimony in the seventh chapter of his Roman epistle. (That Incredible Christian. Religious lopsidedness)This is key. Tozer believes that two natures can coexist in the regenerate, and that Romans 7 is a ‘Christian’ testimony. I part company with him here. I do not believe a man can be ‘in Christ’ and ‘in Adam’ at the same time.I also find 3 elements in his ‘salvation’ theology.It is time we get straightened out in our thinking about the law. The weakness of the law was three-fold: (1) It could not cancel past sins-that is, it could not justify; (2) it could not make dead men live—that is, it could not regenerate; (3)it could not make bad hearts good—that is, it could not sanctify. (Doctrinal Hindrances)Again this is key. Tozer teaches 3 clearly defined conditions; justification, regeneration and sanctification.In his biography of his predecessor A B Simpson, Tozer comments;This divine filling is the secret of holiness. There is a measure of the Holy Spirit’s life in every regenerate soul, but it is when every part of our being is filled with His love and possessed for His glory that we are wholly sanctified. Even as the descending cloud on the tabernacle left no room for human Moses, so this divine fullness excludes from our lives the power of sin and self. AB Simpson biography.This is straightforward ‘second blessing’ teaching.I would have had a conflict with Tozer over his definitions of regeneration, but Tozer never taught, as far as I can see, that the Old Testament saints experience was no different to that of the Christians after Pentecost. This is my conflict with Jeff’s teaching. You may find examples of Tozer saying that the OT saints were ‘regenerated’ but do you find any examples of him saying that OT saints were ‘sanctified’? The Old Covenant was glorious, and so were the covenants before it. I do not demean those covenants or the men that served God in them. I yield to no-one in my admiration of Abraham; I would have thought my studies would have made that plain. But was he a living temple of the Triune God? Was Christ 'in him' the hope of Glory? Or was his experience similar to that of the disciples who were told Joh 14:17 KJV Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.

Br. Ron wrote:y recollection is that if you listen to the original recording I think you will find that Tozer was somewhat diffident in his assertion that they were regenerate. The term was not of great significance to him. I can't remember the title of the audio file, so I can't point you to it.I have already transcribed the sermon. All you have to do is go back one page about 15 posts. If you then seek verification of what I transcribed I have already posted the sermon in question. Tozer is quite clear in his position on this matter.In ChristJeff

Br Ron quoted and wrote:However Tozer believed in the split nature theory.The regenerate man often has a more difficult time of it than the unregenerate, for he is not one man but two. He feels within him a power that tends toward holiness and God, while at the same time he is still a child of Adam’s flesh and a son of the red clay. This moral dualism is to him a source of distress and struggle wholly unknown to the once-born man. Of course the classic critique upon this is Paul’s testimony in the seventh chapter of his Roman epistle. (That Incredible Christian. Religious lopsidedness)This is key. Tozer believes that two natures can coexist in the regenerate, and that Romans 7 is a ‘Christian’ testimony. I part company with him here. I do not believe a man can be ‘in Christ’ and ‘in Adam’ at the same time.Bingo! This is our difference. This is our major point of contention. The position you hold is what I mean when you affirm perfection in this life. I have named this theology "The Heavenly man." In ChristJeff

Br. Ron quoted Tozer,It is time we get straightened out in our thinking about the law. The weakness of the law was three-fold: (1) It could not cancel past sins-that is, it could not justify; (2) it could not make dead men live—that is, it could not regenerate; (3)it could not make bad hearts good—that is, it could not sanctify. (Doctrinal Hindrances)Thankyou for this, I have been teaching this on this forum for 6 months. It is always good have a moment where I am not the only one who teaches this. What Paul taught in the NT, Tozer likewise applied to the OT. Tozer went backwards as I have gone backwards to understand the mysteries of God.In ChristJeff

I have already transcribed the sermon. All you have to do is go back one page about 15 posts. If you then seek verification of what I transcribed I have already posted the sermon in question.No, we are talking among different sermons.

Bingo! This is our difference. This is our major point of contention. The position you hold is what I mean when you affirm perfection in this life. I have named this theology "The Heavenly man."what do you mean by perfection?

Thankyou for this, I have been teaching this on this forum for 6 months.So have I.

We are never more perfect than when we have first been born of the Holy Spirit. In the sight of God because of Jesus Christ we are complete and perfect. That's identification. Now you may ask, but are "you" perfect? The answer is yes and no, it all depends on whose view point we want to look at, mine or God's. Like Jacob ,I'm a worm, but God see me as the righteousness of God----IN----Christ Jesus, faith----identification----his work---my acceptance of that work.

Hi to ALL,I just want to share some thoughts about this interesting topic. I admit I have not read all the postings in this topic because its quite a long discussion and list. Anyway, here are my thoughts:Zechariah 4:6 Then he said to me, “This is the word of the Lord to Zerubbabel saying, ‘Not by might nor by power, but by My Spirit,’ says the Lord of Hosts.John 3:3 In reply Jesus declared, "I tell you the truth, no one can see the kingdom of God unless he is born again."Now, are the two passages above (Zechariah 4:6 & John 3:3) a temporal truth (meaning it applies only to a particular group of people in a specific given time) or an eternal truth (meaning it applies from the creation of the world to the end of the age)?My stand is "Those passages are eternal truth." 1) In connection with Zechariah 4:6, NO MAN CAN DO THE WORK OF GOD. The work of God can only be done by God with His Holy Spirit. Then, the OT people of God must be filled in the Holy Spirit for them to accomplish the work of God.2) In connection with John 3:3, NO MAN CAN ENTER HEAVEN UNLESS HE IS BORN AGAIN. Surely, the dead can not be born again. Then, OT people must have been born again/regenerated for them to enter the kingdom of God.I believe the Holy Trinity is ever present and involved in all the events of this world. They can never be separated. Nothing can be done in the absence of one person. From Genesis, we can see that they are all involved in the creation.If I may say these:In the OT, the prime visible person, in the Godhead, that is involve is the Father. In the NT - during Jesus life, the Son of God is the prime visible person in the Godhead.In the NT - after Jesus' death - the Holy Spirit is the prime visible person in the Godhead.If I may say this, God has His own ways and system of working out His plan to His creation. Can you imagine, that sibling married one another (we have only one set of parents - Adam & Eve -; so how can they populate the earth without their sibling marrying one another)? Isn't this seemingly gross? But of course not, it is God ordained.In conclusion, the infilling of the Holy Spirit in the OT was different from the infilling we have now. OT was a partial manifestation of the Holy Spirt infilling; and NT is the full manifestation (a progressive manifestation from glory to glory; its fullness still yet to come)of the work of the Holy Spirit. As Jesus had said in John 16:7 " ... unless I go away the Counselor will not come to you." (NIV)But isn't it the Holy Spirit is ever present and active in this world and He is with Jesus? So, the Counselor had already come (we can see it clearly in the life of Jesus). Then, Jesus must be talking of the full manifestation/work/empowering of the Holy Spirit of His people.Thanks much.Roman

hi dohzmanare you talking 'imputation' or 'impartation'?

In conclusion, the infilling of the Holy Spirit in the OT was different from the infilling we have now. OT was a partial manifestation of the Holy Spirt infilling; and NT is the full manifestation (a progressive manifestation from glory to glory; its fullness still yet to come)of the work of the Holy Spirit. As Jesus had said in John 16:7 " ... unless I go away the Counselor will not come to you." (NIV)Sticking to the terms you use to express this truth, this has been my position from the beginning of this thread. I am convinced this would have been the position of A W Tozer too.Tozer was a minister in the Christian and Missionary Alliance whose doctrinal statement may be found here

imputation

much of what's done through the cross is legal. Paul uses legal terms in describing our standing in Christ and before the throne of God. Wasn't Finney an attorney? Supose thats why he had such a good handle on the word of God. I do understand that we have alot of "junk in us that needs to go " . In process compared to the Holiness (wholeness) of God and His perfections we never really arrive, I do understand that.

dohzmanare you familiar with John Wesley's A Plain Account of Christian Perfection? From my perspective I would not 'dot every i and cross every t' of Wesley exposition but I run pretty close to this in my understanding.I don't think Jeff and I have many disagreements with 'imputation', it is the area of 'impartation' where we apparantly differ. I do not believe that Abraham or even John the Baptist had the life of God 'imparted' to them. I believe this was only possible after Pentecost.

Imputation is immediate and impartation is progressive? Right? I downloaded that link and printed out Wesley, I'll let ya know what I think later today.

Imputation is immediate and impartation is progressive? Right?Holiness on the installment plan? 20% holy, 30%..?Do you think so?

I believe it was Dl Moody who was at a college ,I believe it was in Oregon state where a college student asked him when he was saved. His answer was which one? I was saved, I am saved and I will be saved. I believe Tozer uses a similar formula but adds one more term in his string of salvations. In a legal sense I believe we are holy --when I say holy I mean whole, complete, all parts working as they were meant to. But in the practical sense I liken our walk of holiness as that of the Book of Joshua, it's a process obtained through obedience, faith, and alot of hard work. In salvation, legally, we will never be anymore holy than when we first believe and are born of the Holy Spirit. In our experience we go from glory to glory. Perfection? Maybe when we have a resurrection body. Here's where I side with Tozer, I do believe that we fight against our old nature and our old nature is much like the land of cannaan and our walk is like the book of Joshua (and eph. in the nt), but thats our experience and I see that as process. Do you think I could use my charge card if we do have it on the installment plan? That way I can get some really decent rates. God Bless Bro. Daryl

I suspect that Tozer, as a second blessing man, believed in 100% holiness but not until the 'second blessing'. There are different theories of 'sanctification' and I can't tie the CMA down at present. I will do some more research.The Bible used different imagery for different aspects of redemption and it can get confusing if we mix them up. Righteous is the word which comes from the legal imagery of redemption. Holiness and cleansing are the words that comes from the temple imagery. There is a connection but technically we cannot have 'legal holiness'. Courts do not deal with holiness but with guilt and righteous action.When I say 'holy' I mean set apart for God and empowered to live for Him alone. That was the sense in which Israel and the priests, in symbol, were 'holified/sanctified'.

Is. 55:1 “Ho! Everyone who thirsts,\tCome to the waters;\tAnd you who have no money,\tCome, buy and eat.\tYes, come, buy wine and milk\tWithout money and without price. 2 \tWhy do you spend money for what is not bread,\tAnd your wages for what does not satisfy?\tListen carefully to Me, and eat what is good,\tAnd let your soul delight itself in abundance. 3 \tIncline your ear, and come to Me.\tHear, and your soul shall live;\tAnd I will make an everlasting covenant with you—\tThe sure mercies of David. 4 \tIndeed I have given him as a witness to the people,\tA leader and commander for the people. 5 \tSurely you shall call a nation you do not know,\tAnd nations who do not know you shall run to you,\tBecause of the LORD your God,\tAnd the Holy One of Israel;\tFor He has glorified you.” 6 \tSeek the LORD while He may be found,\tCall upon Him while He is near. 7 \tLet the wicked forsake his way,\tAnd the unrighteous man his thoughts;\tLet him return to the LORD,\tAnd He will have mercy on him;\tAnd to our God,\tFor He will abundantly pardon. 8 \t“For My thoughts are not your thoughts,\tNor are your ways My ways,” says the LORD. 9 \t“For as the heavens are higher than the earth,\tSo are My ways higher than your ways,\tAnd My thoughts than your thoughts. 10 \t“For as the rain comes down, and the snow from heaven,\tAnd do not return there,\tBut water the earth,\tAnd make it bring forth and bud,\tThat it may give seed to the sower\tAnd bread to the eater, 11 \tSo shall My word be that goes forth from My mouth;\tIt shall not return to Me void,\tBut it shall accomplish what I please,\tAnd it shall prosper in the thing for which I sent it. 12 \t“For you shall go out with joy,\tAnd be led out with peace;\tThe mountains and the hills\tShall break forth into singing before you,\tAnd all the trees of the field shall clap their hands. 13 \tInstead of the thorn shall come up the cypress tree,\tAnd instead of the brier shall come up the myrtle tree;\tAnd it shall be to the LORD for a name,\tFor an everlasting sign that shall not be cut off.” Where does this promise "fit" New or Old.In ChristJeff

It is a promise of the New given during the time of the Old.

Is there a place in the NT believers life to be declared righteous and yet they are not holy? I have a difficult time with this because when I made a break from the world the first book I read was practing the presence of God. Since that day, I saw everything in life as Christ. Even secular work. So I sometimes have a difficult time making a difference between holiness and sinlessness. Even the books I've read haven't seemed to help much.

Brother Ron wrote:It is a promise of the New given during the time of the Old.What about those who read the words of Isaiah? What about those who heard these words preached by Isaiah? 3 Incline your ear, and come to Me. Hear, and your soul shall live; And I will make an everlasting covenant with you— The sure mercies of David. God says that He will give to them what He gave to David. "And I will make an everlasting covenant with you-the sure mercies of David."What does God say of His word? 11 So shall My word be that goes forth from My mouth; It shall not return to Me void, But it shall accomplish what I please, And it shall prosper in the thing for which I sent it. Has the word of God no effect on those who heard it in that generation? Hear God's desire for His people.Is. 55:1 “Ho! Everyone who thirsts, Come to the waters; And you who have no money, Come, buy and eat. Yes, come, buy wine and milk Without money and without price. 2 Why do you spend money for what is not bread, And your wages for what does not satisfy? Listen carefully to Me, and eat what is good, And let your soul delight itself in abundance. In ChristJeff

What about those who read the words of Isaiah? What about those who heard these words preached by Isaiah?Not only to those who heard but those who actually spoke them? 1Pe 1:10-12 KJV Of which salvation the prophets have enquired and searched diligently, who prophesied of the grace that should come unto you: (11) Searching what, or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was in them did signify, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow. (12) Unto whom it was revealed, that not unto themselves, but unto us they did minister the things, which are now reported unto you by them that have preached the gospel unto you with the Holy Ghost sent down from heaven; which things the angels desire to look into. Not even Isaiah could receive some the reality of some of the things that Isaiah preached, but as he sought God it was revealed to him that it was 'not unto themselves, but unto us' that such things were addressed. They prophesied of 'the grace that should come'. Until you change your mind here you are never going to understand the message of the Bible. I know that is strong but I don't say it in irritation or heat; it is impossible to understand the unveiling of God's purposes unless you accept that things happened in linear time.

would Heb 4:2 go hand in hand with your passage from peter?

would Heb 4:2 go hand in hand with your passage from peter?I think this is something different. Heb 4:2 is saying they didn't 'enter' even though good news was preached to them. Peter is saying that is was not possible for them to understand, and that the grace which is available to us was not available to them; it was 'the grace the should come to you'. In the cause of precision I have put the words in italics as does the KJV. Darby is more literal in his translation;1Pe 1:10 Darby Concerning which salvation prophets, who have prophesied of the grace towards you, sought out and searched out;If we let our eyes run ahead we discover that more grace is on the way, but which will not arrive until the revelation of Christ.1Pe 1:13 Darby Wherefore, having girded up the loins of your mind, be sober and hope with perfect stedfastness in the grace which will be brought to you at the revelation of Jesus Christ;Grace is a many 'splendoured thing' but all grace is not the same grace.1Pe 4:10 KJV As every man hath received the gift, even so minister the same one to another, as good stewards of the manifold grace of God. The word 'manifold' here is 'variegated'... all shapes, sizes and colours!!

Your statement on grace----That being true comparing NT saint with NT saint , say for example a Finney with one of us in these times, is the same exact grace available to produce another Finney in modern times or is the grace we each recieve taylor made, as it were, for each?

say for example a Finney with one of us in these times, is the same exact grace available to produce another Finney in modern times or is the grace we each recieve taylor made, as it were, for each?I think the progression of the revelation of the Gospel would not produce a Finney 'clone' in our times, because we have moved farther ahead in the restoration of elements of the New Covenant that had not been readily revealed in Finney's time. Finney was a revivalist and I greatly admire and study him for that purpose. Yet, certain of his doctrines and beliefs are not in step with what we know soteriologically. That is not to say God could not raise up one "like unto Finney", but I believe God will raise up a multitude of folk that will speak forth what God is saying to this generation. The issues are way more complex than they were in the 1830's-1860's in many areas. Finney fought slavery- we are dealing with abortion and wholesale fornication and paganism. Billy Sunday preached hard against alcohol and worldliness. Now these are sins that dominate much of the culture. As a result people need a mixture of repentance preaching and grace that is unlike any generation I have studied. Sin has laid waste peoples lives and they need grace- yet they also need to repent. This is why a 'Finney' message ONLY would not work in our times. We need the plurality of God's grace. God Bless,-Robert

The word 'manifold' here is 'variegated'... all shapes, sizes and colours!!Praise God for that. As I think more on the issue of Finney and many other of the Saints of old I think we need to look forward with the lessons we can glean from the ministries of the past and allow God to mold US into what He would have us be so we can speak to our generation. The grace we need today is a different shape, size, and color than in the centuries past. Moreover, individuals need 'custom' grace for their lives as many are wrecked by Sin and sins. I think about the tabernacle and the Temple and how the shew bread had to be fresh and how the Isrealites were not allowed to keep the manna from the previous day- except the day before sabbath. Notice that the recipe for the bread is the same- day in and day out. The manna was the same manna day in and day out. So why the need for a new batch everyday? Because God speaks freshly the same message day by day. The process of baking and collecting is a daily thing. The recipe don't change- but the message is renewed to us day by day by the Holy Spirit. We may glean from the ingredients of the messages of the past- but we need them made afresh in us to be relevant to us and those we minister to.

So why the need for a new batch everyday? Because God speaks freshly the same message day by day. The process of baking and collecting is a daily thing. The recipe don't change- but the message is renewed to us day by day by the Holy Spirit. We may glean from the ingredients of the messages of the past- but we need them made afresh in us to be relevant to us and those we minister to. Something else to think about is the development of 'leaven' within the metaphorical 'bread' or 'manna.' Leaven causes bread to rise through the process of 'fermentation.' This is when a fungus in the bread breaks down the sugars into alcohol and carbon dioxide. The realease of carbon dioxide is what causes the little bubbles in the bread and in turn make is 'rise' or 'puff up.' Scripture talks about the 'leaven' of the pharisees. This is quite a metaphor! It deals with the disassembly of the word in such a way as to puff the person up who is teaching it. This is also how beer and wine becomes intoxicating. The "drunkards of Ephriam" is another metaphor used in the Old Testament. What allows for this 'fermentation' and puffing up? When men hold onto a 'word' from God until they have added in their two cents worth and then it becomes contaminated. Could this be why Jesus said not to think about what we are going to say before we are examined by those who persecute us? He did not want our humaness to leaven the fresh word. So the Holy Ghost gives it at the time it is to be spoken fresh and free from the lump leavening elements of ourselves. If we could get this we would see a lot turned around in churches. It is not about what I think needs to happen- it is about what the Spirit saith unto the churches. And if I hold on to what God has given me week after week and try to preach what was once a fresh word from God I can't help but contaminate it until I'm puffed up and the word intoxicates rather than medicates the hearers. There needs to be a fresh, leaven free word from God in our lives daily.

I agree with much of what you said , however my view of the prophets is much different than that of modern teaching. I believe that in many instances they brought forth words that had been in them for many weeks or even months or years, I believe that word had to do a work in them before it could be spoken with any degree of effectiveness. As to my Finney comments, here's why I mentioned it. Most of us preachers use those from the past as illustrations to be sought after or emulated today. But that useage of Grace Ron gave has me re-thinking some (possibily) misconceptions I have when I approach some of these great mens writtings and thier applications. Bro. Daryl

Brother Ron quoted from this Scripture:(11) Searching what, or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was in them did signify,What was it they they were searching for? The Spirit of Christ was already in them. The word "time" is significant.In ChristJeff

Brother Robert wrote: The manna was the same manna day in and day out. So why the need for a new batch everyday? Because God speaks freshly the same message day by dayDeut. 8:3 So He humbled you, allowed you to hunger, and fed you with manna which you did not know nor did your fathers know, that He might make you know that man shall not live by bread alone; but man lives by every word that proceeds from the mouth of the LORD. Matt. 6:11 \tGive us this day our daily bread.Rev. 2:17 “He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. To him who overcomes I will give some of the hidden manna to eat. Manna transcends dispensational theology doesn't it.In ChristJeff

What was it they they were searching for? The Spirit of Christ was already in them. The word "time" is significant.Just read the verse; it's pretty straightforward. If you don't understand it, try another version.

Brother Ron,The verse says that the Spirit of Christ was in them. What were they actually searching for? Again, the substance of what they were searching for has to do with the word "time." In ChristJeff

Brother Ron wrote:Not even Isaiah could receive some the reality of some of the things that Isaiah preached,During the millenial rule of Christ many will look back to our time and say the same thing. They will have a clearer understanding than we do in our time. And we too teach much about what we really don't understand.Imagine Christ in the His 1000 year reign. What do you see?Does this mean that the Spirit of Christ was not in Isaiah?In ChristJeff

The verse says that the Spirit of Christ was in them. What were they actually searching for? Again, the substance of what they were searching for has to do with the word "time." Go on, I give up, what's your answer to your riddle?Whatever your answer is remember God's answer was that their prophecies were not for their era but for the one which would come beyond his 'sufferings'.

Just some thoughts to share:1) Imputation is immediate.A person upon being born again becomes "holy" and this is "justification. This justification is neither earned nor worked for but imputed (tranferred) to the person by God.Vines Dictionary: In Rom. 5:18 "justification of life" means justification which results to life" (cp. Rom 5:21). That God "justifies" the believing sinner on the ground of Christ's death, involves His free gift of life.2) Impartation is progressive.Christians are called to be holy. This holiness is a continuing process where Christians ought to live a godly life. Vines Dictionary: Believers are called to sanctify themselves (2Ti 1:9) cleansing themselves from all defilement, forsaking sin, living a holy manner of life (1Pe 1:15, 2Pe 3:11), and experiencing fellowship with God in His holinessCheck Vines for holiness, justification & sanctification.

A person upon being born again becomes "holy" and this is "justification.Justification is imputed righteousness not imputed holiness.

Br. Ron wrote:hatever your answer is remember God's answer was that their prophecies were not for their era but for the one which would come beyond his 'sufferings'.1Pet. 1:10 Of this salvation the prophets have inquired and searched carefully, who prophesied of the grace that would come to you, 11 searching what, or what manner of time, the Spirit of Christ who was in them was indicating when He testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ and the glories that would follow. 12 To them it was revealed that, not to themselves, but to us they were ministering the things which now have been reported to you through those who have preached the gospel to you by the Holy Spirit sent from heaven—things which angels desire to look into. The prophets were searching for the moment in time at which this event was to take place. The prophets were searching what manner, in my mind, what were the specifics of the event that the Spirit was giving them visions of. This Scripture does not speak of a change in the nature of the grace but in the revelation of the manner of the event. In like manner, we too search for what manner, for what time, the specifics of the second comming of Christ. We too search for signs of the end of this age. How much do we really understand of the things to come? This search for the grace that will come in the future does not affect any change on what we now have in Christ. Likewise as the Spirit of Christ that was in them, the prophets had all things that are in Christ. If Scripture says the the Spirit of Christ was in them, I believe it to be so. In Christ Jeff

obtaining as the outcome of your faith the salvation of your souls. As to this salvation, the prophets who prophesied of the grace that would come to you made careful searches and inquiries, seeking to know what person or time the Spirit of Christ within them was indicating as He predicted the sufferings of Christ and the glories to follow. (1Pe 1:9-11 NASB)The prophets enquired as to 'this salvation' seeking to know the means and the time of the 'sufferings of Christ and the glories to follow'.It was revealed to them that they were not serving themselves, but you, in these things which now have been announced to you through those who preached the gospel to you by the Holy Spirit sent from heaven--things into which angels long to look. (1Pe 1:12 NASB)The salvation they had been speaking of was for 'you' who have received the proclamation from those who 'preached the gospel by the Holy Spirit sent from heaven'. How could anything be more plain than that he is referring to the post-Pentecost preaching of the gospel?What exactly do you think happened at Pentecost?

Br. Ron asked:What exactly do you think happened at Pentecost?Peter tells us:17 \t“And it shall come to pass in the last days, says God,\tThat I will pour out of My Spirit on all flesh;\tYour sons and your daughters shall prophesy,\tYour young men shall see visions,\tYour old men shall dream dreams.18 \tAnd on My menservants and on My maidservants\tI will pour out My Spirit in those days;\tAnd they shall prophesy.How many do you know have these same manifestations that they had on the day of Pentecost? In ChristJeff

Just a thought,The same manifestations of Pentecost, the dreams, vision, and prophesying all were manifested in the OT saints as well. In ChristJeff

How many do you know have these same manifestations that they had on the day of Pentecost? hundreds.

The same manifestations of Pentecost, the dreams, vision, and prophesying all were manifested in the OT saints as well. In the light of your other posts that would imply that OT blessing is greater than the NT?

Br. Ron asked:In the light of your other posts that would imply that OT blessing is greater than the NT?All who are born of the woman and the Seed have the same blessing for it comes from heaven. Listen to what I say once more. The OT saints knew of things to come, just as we in the NT know that there are things to come. The OT saints looked forward to what would be the first comming of Christ as we also look forward to the second comming of Christ. One day we too will be given a greater revelation of Christ that cannot not be known as we know it today. In ChristJeff

Psa. 27:1 \tThe LORD is my light and my salvation;\tWhom shall I fear?\tThe LORD is the strength of my life;\tOf whom shall I be afraid? By what means did God enable David to know and experience this truth?In ChristJeff

All who are born of the woman and the Seed have the same blessing for it comes from heaven.This is true but we come back to the same point again. The experience of those after Pentecost was qualitively different from that of the OT saints. I believe the scripture teaches that the difference is that the OT saints, thought experiencing justification by faith, empowerings, enlightenings,did not have the indwelling Spirit as was specifically promised by Christ.There is really no point in going around this again and again, so I will not be replying or contributing to any of your threads for the foreseeable future. If you want to talk 'off-line' please feel free to do so by email.I wish you not ill will. I am not irritated or frustrated. I just think enough is enough. No doubt you will pursue me around the site, but please do not expect any further responses.

Br. Ron wrote:The experience of those after Pentecost was qualitively different from that of the OT saints. I believe the scripture teaches that the difference is that the OT saints, thought experiencing justification by faith, empowerings, enlightenings,did not have the indwelling Spirit as was specifically promised by Christ.Listen to the words of David what quality of experience did he have with God?4 \tOne thing I have desired of the LORD,\tThat will I seek:\tThat I may dwell in the house of the LORD\tAll the days of my life,\tTo behold the beauty of the LORD,\tAnd to inquire in His temple. This question is open to all not only Br. Ron. Many hold the same position as Br Ron does. Many will teach and use these many Scriptures that I have listed here and apply them to the NT saints. But I keep asking this very simple question. How could a carnal man know God and have these thoughts without the Holy Spirit transforming his evil heart and giving him another. These verses dwell in and on the spiritual life. Nothing good can come from a man that has not known God in the Spirit. So I ask those who deny the power of the Spirit in the lives of the OT saints why do you apply the thoughts of the OT saints to the NT teachings? Where did David dwell according to Scripture?4 \tOne thing I have desired of the LORD,\tThat will I seek:\tThat I may dwell in the house of the LORD\tAll the days of my life,\tTo behold the beauty of the LORD,\tAnd to inquire in His temple. 8 \tWhen You said, “Seek My face,”\tMy heart said to You, “Your face, LORD, I will seek.” 9 \tDo not hide Your face from me;\tDo not turn Your servant away in anger;\tYou have been my help;\tDo not leave me nor forsake me,\tO God of my salvation. 13 \tI would have lost heart, unless I had believed\tThat I would see the goodness of the LORD\tIn the land of the living. God changed the heart of David that is the only way God could sayActs 13:22 And when He had removed him, He raised up for them David as king, to whom also He gave testimony and said, “I have found David the son of Jesse, a man after My own heart, who will do all My will.’Dwell in the thoughts of the hearts of the OT saints, you will find the work of the Holy Spirit in these circumsized hearts. See how He is faithful to those who sought Him. We love Him because He first loved us. This truth rings thoughtout the 66 books of the Bible. In Christjeff

Psa. 133:0 A Song of Ascents. Of David. Psa. 133:1 \tBehold, how good and how pleasant it is\tFor brethren to dwell together in unity! 2 \tIt is like the precious oil upon the head,\tRunning down on the beard,\tThe beard of Aaron,\tRunning down on the edge of his garments. 3 \tIt is like the dew of Hermon,\tDescending upon the mountains of Zion;\tFor there the LORD commanded the blessing—\tLife forevermore. Is it possible for the brethren to dwell in unity without the Holy Spirit?The Lord commanded the blessing--Life forevermore. The blessing, using the anointing of oil on Aaron is symbolic of the Holy Spirit isn't it?In ChristJeff

Psalm 119:97 \tOh, how I love Your law!\tIt is my meditation all the day. 98 \tYou, through Your commandments, make me wiser than my enemies;\tFor they are ever with me. 99 \tI have more understanding than all my teachers,\tFor Your testimonies are my meditation. 100 I understand more than the ancients,\t\tBecause I keep Your precepts. 101 I have restrained my feet from every evil way,\t\tThat I may keep Your word. 102 I have not departed from Your judgments,\t\tFor You Yourself have taught me. 103 How sweet are Your words to my taste,\t\tSweeter than honey to my mouth! 104 Through Your precepts I get understanding;\t\tTherefore I hate every false way. 105 Your word is a lamp to my feet\t\tAnd a light to my path. Can a carnal man delight in God's laws?In ChristJeff

I was reading in Philippians 3 yesterday and came across another time where Paul teaches about perfection that has not been received but is being waited upon. Phil 3: 20 For our citizenship is in heaven, from which we also eagerly wait for the Savior, the Lord Jesus Christ, 21 who will transform our lowly body that it may be conformed to His glorious body, according to the working by which He is able even to subdue all things to Himself. This Scripture speaks to what the writer of Hebrews speaks of in the following Scripture.Heb. 11:39 And all these, having obtained a good testimony through faith, did not receive the promise, 40 God having provided something better for us, that they should not be made perfect apart from us. We are all still waiting for that same perfection. This perfection has nothing to do with how God circumcises the heart with the Spirit in all those who are justified by their faith in Him. In ChristJeff

7 \tHow precious is Your lovingkindness, O God!\tTherefore the children of men put their trust under the shadow of Your wings. 8 \tThey are abundantly satisfied with the fullness of Your house,\tAnd You give them drink from the river of Your pleasures. 9 \tFor with You is the fountain of life;\tIn Your light we see light. 10 \tOh, continue Your lovingkindness to those who know You,\tAnd Your righteousness to the upright in heart. Do you all hear the substance for which this person hoped for? This abundance comes from God and is given to them who hear. In ChristJeff

Jeff, I have read all the posts on this and other related threads that you have written.Initially the perspective you gave was challenging and provoking,however i personally have become tired of the lone drum that you seem to be beating.I just do not find a witness in my spirit or through scripture that you use, to re-inforce your posistion.To be honest I still do not know your posistion. As when challenged your responses are vague and unclear.Jeff my view is ,that no matter how hard we try to force scripture to say somthing, if it isnt saying it then stop :-) I have also discussed your views with trusted friends who have agreed with many posts here,others saying that there is greater revelation given to new testament saints than OT ones,and that the new covenant experience of indwelling of the spirit was not available to the oldobviously this is my own view and certainly not intended as a personal attack on you.Tell me do you fellowship with like minded people? ie church etc,where your views are preachedif you do what are you called if anything? :-)

Br. Delboy,I keep posting the Scriptures which speak of the heart condition of the individual. Do our hearts sing of the joy of dwelling in God's house as the thoughts that David, Isaiah, Jeremiah, Ezekiel, Job, etc. Is our heart like that of David, when God testified that he had a heart after God? There are many who believe as I. A.W.Tozer was quoted in this tread. I know some try to do mental gymnastics around what Tozer said. But the fact remains that he taught that the OT saints were indwelled by the Holy Spirit.Likewise there are brothers and sister at Calvary Chapel who believe as I. There are brothers at the AME church in LA that believes as I. There are brothers at Grace Baptist church in Valencia that believe as I. And I have heard that John MacArthur believes as I. There are brothers here on SI that believe as I. Once you hear the Spirit of God speak in your heart you realize where faith is created. It does not orginate in man, it comes because He speaks. I continue to post Scripture in the hope that some may hear the Spirit in the OT saints. They are our example, and we should learn from them. They had the gospel and not many believed. Do you think it is any different today? In ChristJeff

Br. Derek,Luke 24:25 Then He said to them, “O foolish ones, and slow of heart to believe in all that the prophets have spoken! 26 Ought not the Christ to have suffered these things and to enter into His glory?” 27 And beginning at Moses and all the Prophets, He expounded to them in all the Scriptures the things concerning Himself. Luke 24:28 Then they drew near to the village where they were going, and He indicated that He would have gone farther. 29 But they constrained Him, saying, “Abide with us, for it is toward evening, and the day is far spent.” And He went in to stay with them. Luke 24:30 Now it came to pass, as He sat at the table with them, that He took bread, blessed and broke it, and gave it to them. 31 Then their eyes were opened and they knew Him; and He vanished from their sight. Luke 24:32 And they said to one another, “Did not our heart burn within us while He talked with us on the road, and while He opened the Scriptures to us?” Jesus opened the Scriptures to them. "He expounded to them in all the Scriptures the things concerning Himself.'And their hearts burned within them. Paul exhorts, "Rom. 10:8 But what does it say? “The word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart” (that is, the word of faith which we preach): This is OT Scripture used as an exhortation for the NC believers. I never said that there is a greater revelation in the OT. I said that the mysteries of God are revealed in the OT. The NT clearly states what is already present in the OT. Once you find Jesus and the Holy Spirit in the OT you will have found the treasure that made the hearts burn in two men who walked one day with Jesus.In ChristJeff

Again concerning this Scripture:Heb. 11:39 And all these, having obtained a good testimony through faith, did not receive the promise, 40 God having provided something better for us, that they should not be made perfect apart from us. Earlier in chapter 10 we learn of a promise that has not been received by the faithful.36 For you have need of endurance, so that after you have done the will of God, you may receive the promise: 37 \t“For yet a little while,\tAnd He who is coming will come and will not tarry.38 \tNow the just shall live by faith;\tBut if anyone draws back,\tMy soul has no pleasure in him.”Both of these sections of Scripture speak of the same promise. In verse 36, " For you have need of endurance, so that after you have done the will of God, you may receive the promise. This promise is not given to the man made of dust, the man sown in corruption. We are all sown into corruption. It is only when we are resurrected and given the incorrupt body do we receive this promise.In ChristJeff

Br. Derek wrote:Tell me do you fellowship with like minded people? ie church etc,where your views are preachedif you do what are you called if anything?After contemplating on the thoughts you shared, I have this thought to share. I have not been able to convince anyone of the things that I share on this subject. This is very evident by the responses that are similar to yours. You are not alone in your thoughts about the Holy Spirit indwelling the OT saints. Having said that, those that do share the same belief as me, are those that just show up in one way or another. Two men at Ucla, one is training to be a pastor at a large Baptist church, and the other is a pastor at an AME church share the same belief. We all met each other not knowing the things we shared in common. Likewise, the only reason I found this website is because I heard the words of A.W.Tozer and the words that he spoke told me about my God and Savior. I knew that he knew God as I do. It was only latter after stumbling upon the sermon I have highlighted in this thread that I came to know that he believed as I did about the Holy Spirit indwelling the OT saints. My own pastor in Calvary Chapel denies the things that I teach here. Most believers that I know have no or very little interest in reading the OT. I know of people in ministry that haven't even read the entire Bible. So all I can do is share as I learn day by day. That's my testimony. I am not ashamed of it. I have nothing to gain from it. All I can do is point to Christ and the word of God that is setting me apart from this world.In Christjeff

Hi Jeff,This is my take, Did God dwell with the old testament people of God? Yes of course in many forms.However he did not dwell within them as we know the indwelling today.Hence in the OT the need for priests, levites, the temple,the ark,the sacrifices.These things speaking of better things to come.Then Christ comes then new covenant etc etc:-) I never said that there is a greater revelation in the OT. I said that the mysteries of God are revealed in the OT. The NT clearly states what is already present in the OT. Once you find Jesus and the Holy Spirit in the OT you will have found the treasure that made the hearts burn in two men who walked one day with Jesus.This is a true statement, which I can fully agree with, however you have gone much further beyond this in your beliefs,Luke 24:25 Then He said to them, “O foolish ones, and slow of heart to believe in all that the prophets have spoken! 26 Ought not the Christ to have suffered these things and to enter into His glory?” 27 And beginning at Moses and all the Prophets, He expounded to them in all the Scriptures the things concerning Himself. These scriptures do not reinforce your view,but simple state that there hearts burned within them due to1, being with Jesus on the road to Emmaus2, that Christ showed the types and shadows of his coming in the OT3,revealing to them that He and the Holy spirit was actively involved in those times past4,that all that was past had now culminated and had be surpassed by His coming and death and resurrection.Your quote;I keep posting the Scriptures which speak of the heart condition of the individual. Do our hearts sing of the joy of dwelling in God's house as the thoughts that David, Isaiah, Jeremiah, Ezekiel, Job, etc. Is our heart like that of David, when God testified that he had a heart after God? Your quote above again only reinforces that God dwelt in specific places and times, ie The temple, the cloud the pillar of fire the burning bushNever within them.Those mentioned above of course had relationship with God but it was an external one In a way today, many have an experience of God,Healing forgiveness and religiously go to church and know God to a point.But its not until we receive the Adoption from above where we cant help but cry Abba Father.The OT people of God received God’s blessings and His benefits as his chosen nation to display who he was and what he was like.I think, if you persue to its end your stance then we would have to all become OT jews and hence no need for Chrit’s sacrifice.Dear friend , please reply in your own words, do not post any more scripture I’ve seen enough… and as I’ve said, does not strengthen your posistion :-) Do you maybe not think that its only a few who share your views for a point?My point, that its maybe wrong :-)

Br. Derek wrote:Hi Jeff,This is my take, Did God dwell with the old testament people of God? Yes of course in many forms.However he did not dwell within them as we know the indwelling today.Hence in the OT the need for priests, levites, the temple,the ark,the sacrifices.These things speaking of better things to come.Then Christ comes then new covenant etc etc I read the book of Hosea and Amos this morning and these two thoughts apply here in this thread.First in the Hosea 9:10 \t“I found Israel\tLike grapes in the wilderness;\tI saw your fathers\tAs the firstfruits on the fig tree in its first season.\tBut they went to Baal Peor,\tAnd separated themselves to that shame;\tThey became an abomination like the thing they loved. 11 \tAs for Ephraim, their glory shall fly away like a bird—\tNo birth, no pregnancy, and no conception! 12 \tThough they bring up their children,\tYet I will bereave them to the last man.\tYes, woe to them when I depart from them! Here God has determined to pronounce judgement on Ephraim, the northern kingdom. In verse 11, it says that, "their glory shall fly away like a bird--No birth, no pregnancy, and no coception!. Now look to the next verse which clarifies verse 11. 12. "Though they bring up their children, yet I will bereave them to the last man. Yes, woe to them when I depart from them!We see that there is no birth, no pregnancy, no conception and yet they have children that they bring up. What birth are these Scriptures speaking of?Secondly pretaining to Christ in the OT. Hosea 11:12 \t“Ephraim has encircled Me with lies,\tAnd the house of Israel with deceit;\tBut Judah still walks with God,\tEven with the Holy One who is faithful. Hosea 12:3 \tHe took his brother by the heel in the womb,\tAnd in his strength he struggled with God. 4 \tYes, he struggled with the Angel and prevailed;\tHe wept, and sought favor from Him.\tHe found Him in Bethel,\tAnd there He spoke to us— 5 \tThat is, the LORD God of hosts.\tThe LORD is His memorable name. 6 \tSo you, by the help of your God, return;\tObserve mercy and justice,\tAnd wait on your God continually. Who do you see in Scripture here? Who is, "Even with the Holy One who is faithful. Who does Jacob struggle with? "3 \tHe took his brother by the heel in the womb,\tAnd in his strength he struggled with God. 4 \tYes, he struggled with the Angel and prevailed;\tHe wept, and sought favor from Him.\tHe found Him in Bethel,\tAnd there He spoke to us— 5 \tThat is, the LORD God of hosts.\tThe LORD is His memorable name. Christ and the Holy Spirit are the fountain of living water in the OT saints.In ChristJeff

We know that in the NT this Scripture is sighted as describing the event of the birth of Jesus. Yet this Scripture is also for a sign for King Ahaz. Read and meditate on this sign given to a king long before Christ was born of the virgin Mary.Is. 7:10 Moreover the LORD spoke again to Ahaz, saying, 11 “Ask a sign for yourself from the LORD your God; ask it either in the depth or in the height above.” Is. 7:12 But Ahaz said, “I will not ask, nor will I test the LORD!” Is. 7:13 Then he said, “Hear now, O house of David! Is it a small thing for you to weary men, but will you weary my God also? 14 Therefore the Lord Himself will give you a sign: Behold, the virgin shall conceive and bear a Son, and shall call His name Immanuel. 15 Curds and honey He shall eat, that He may know to refuse the evil and choose the good. 16 For before the Child shall know to refuse the evil and choose the good, the land that you dread will be forsaken by both her kings. Look to the verse that follows "Behold, the virgin shall conceive and bear a Son, and shall call His name Immanuel." 15 Curds and honey He shall eat, that He may know to refuse the evil and choose the good. 16 For before the Child shall know to refuse the evil and choose the good, the land that you dread will be forsaken by both her kings. You must read in the books of Chronicles and Kings of this time. See how there was a faithful generation that grew for a short time. Read of the story during the rule of King Hezekiah. See how God blessed the nation of Judah. Meditate on the sign that was given to Ahaz, "For before the Child shall know to refuse the evil and choose the good, the land that you dread will be forsaken by both her kings." What "Child" is Isaiah prophesying about?There is much to learn about Christ in the OT Scriptures.In ChristJeff

Jeff, nothing new then to your replies :-( Its sad to think that you continue to misquote scripture.I think i'm listening to the word according to Jeff :-) sorry mate,thats the end of the road for me I can't continue this game of ping pong! I wish you well

Br. Derek, If you don't answer that is fine. Yet, you mentioned that I misquoted Scripture. Is this statement in reference to my last two posts? Secondly, if you don't spend the time in the Scripture I have posted, you will never be able to understand my point. Thirdly, I would recommend the thread Br. Aaron has started. There is much to be gleaned from this thread.https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=5497&forum=36In ChristJeff

James Practsh(?) wrote in the thread posted by Br.Aaron:Yet there is still an Abomination of Desolations to come. All of these preceding ones typify the one that is coming. The point is this: Western ideas of prophecy involve prediction and fulfillment. The Hebrew idea of prophecy is a pattern that is recapitulated; multiple fulfillments with one ultimate fulfillment - that is how Jewish prophecy was understood. Each of the multiple fulfillments is a type of and teaches something about the ultimate one. This idea must be understood in order to see Jesus and the work of the Holy Spirit in the OT. As I have posted these Scriptures: Is. 7:10 Moreover the LORD spoke again to Ahaz, saying, 11 “Ask a sign for yourself from the LORD your God; ask it either in the depth or in the height above.” Is. 7:12 But Ahaz said, “I will not ask, nor will I test the LORD!” Is. 7:13 Then he said, “Hear now, O house of David! Is it a small thing for you to weary men, but will you weary my God also? 14 Therefore the Lord Himself will give you a sign: Behold, the virgin shall conceive and bear a Son, and shall call His name Immanuel. 15 Curds and honey He shall eat, that He may know to refuse the evil and choose the good. 16 For before the Child shall know to refuse the evil and choose the good, the land that you dread will be forsaken by both her kings. This prophesy does speak of Jesus being born of the virgin Mary as we know of the things of the past. Yet this Scripture also speaks of a prophesy that happened before Jesus was born of Mary. It speaks of the time in which it was declared to King Ahaz. It speaks of the time during the rule of King Hezekiah. This prophesy has multiple outcomes in the work of Jesus in the OT and NT.14 Therefore the Lord Himself will give you a sign: Behold, the virgin shall conceive and bear a Son, and shall call His name Immanuel. The virgin spoken of here as it applies to the time of King Hezekiah reign can also be identified as the desolate woman who has no husband. Listen to Paul's use of Isaiah's prophesy in Gal. 4:“Rejoice, O barren,\tYou who do not bear!\tBreak forth and shout,\tYou who are not in labor!\tFor the desolate has many more children\tThan she who has a husband.”A virgin or a desolate woman gives birth to many more children than she who has a husband. This applied to the faithful generation during the time of Hezekiah. This also will apply in the times to come.Rev. 12:1 Now a great sign appeared in heaven: a woman clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet, and on her head a garland of twelve stars. 2 Then being with child, she cried out in labor and in pain to give birth. Rev. 12:3 And another sign appeared in heaven: behold, a great, fiery red dragon having seven heads and ten horns, and seven diadems on his heads. 4 His tail drew a third of the stars of heaven and threw them to the earth. And the dragon stood before the woman who was ready to give birth, to devour her Child as soon as it was born. 5 She bore a male Child who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron. And her Child was caught up to God and His throne. 6 Then the woman fled into the wilderness, where she has a place prepared by God, that they should feed her there one thousand two hundred and sixty days. Rev. 12:7 And war broke out in heaven: Michael and his angels fought with the dragon; and the dragon and his angels fought, 8 but they did not prevail, nor was a place found for them in heaven any longer. 9 So the great dragon was cast out, that serpent of old, called the Devil and Satan, who deceives the whole world; he was cast to the earth, and his angels were cast out with him. Rev. 12:10 Then I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, “Now salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of His Christ have come, for the accuser of our brethren, who accused them before our God day and night, has been cast down. 11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb and by the word of their testimony, and they did not love their lives to the death. 12 Therefore rejoice, O heavens, and you who dwell in them! Woe to the inhabitants of the earth and the sea! For the devil has come down to you, having great wrath, because he knows that he has a short time.” Rev. 12:13 Now when the dragon saw that he had been cast to the earth, he persecuted the woman who gave birth to the male Child. 14 But the woman was given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness to her place, where she is nourished for a time and times and half a time, from the presence of the serpent. 15 So the serpent spewed water out of his mouth like a flood after the woman, that he might cause her to be carried away by the flood. 16 But the earth helped the woman, and the earth opened its mouth and swallowed up the flood which the dragon had spewed out of his mouth. 17 And the dragon was enraged with the woman, and he went to make war with the rest of her offspring, who keep the commandments of God and have the testimony of Jesus Christ. The woman and the Child, the virgin and the Child, all speak to the work of the Holy Spirit and Jesus. This is the work of the Heavenly Jerusalem that Paul speaks of. Gal 4:For these are the two covenants: the one from Mount Sinai which gives birth to bondage, which is Hagar— 25 for this Hagar is Mount Sinai in Arabia, and corresponds to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children— 26 but the Jerusalem above is free, which is the mother of us all. We are born of the mother that represents the Jerusalem that is above. We who are born from above are born of the desolate woman.In ChristJeff

Many will say that the God of the OT is full of judgement and that the God of the NT is full of mercy and grace. Exactly who is Christ, is He only revealed in the NT as grace and mercy or is He also revealed in the OT as full of wrath. Exactly who is Christ?Is. 63:1 Who is this who comes from Edom,\tWith dyed garments from Bozrah,\tThis One who is glorious in His apparel,\tTraveling in the greatness of His strength?—\t“I who speak in righteousness, mighty to save.” 2 \tWhy is Your apparel red,\tAnd Your garments like one who treads in the winepress? 3 \t“I have trodden the winepress alone,\tAnd from the peoples no one was with Me.\tFor I have trodden them in My anger,\tAnd trampled them in My fury;\tTheir blood is sprinkled upon My garments,\tAnd I have stained all My robes. 4 \tFor the day of vengeance is in My heart,\tAnd the year of My redeemed has come. 5 \tI looked, but there was no one to help,\tAnd I wondered\tThat there was no one to uphold;\tTherefore My own arm brought salvation for Me;\tAnd My own fury, it sustained Me. 6 \tI have trodden down the peoples in My anger,\tMade them drunk in My fury,\tAnd brought down their strength to the earth.” 7 \tI will mention the lovingkindnesses of the LORD\tAnd the praises of the LORD,\tAccording to all that the LORD has bestowed on us,\tAnd the great goodness toward the house of Israel,\tWhich He has bestowed on them according to His mercies,\tAccording to the multitude of His lovingkindnesses. 8 \tFor He said, “Surely they are My people,\tChildren who will not lie.”\tSo He became their Savior. 9 \tIn all their affliction He was afflicted,\tAnd the Angel of His Presence saved them;\tIn His love and in His pity He redeemed them;\tAnd He bore them and carried them\tAll the days of old. 10 \tBut they rebelled and grieved His Holy Spirit;\tSo He turned Himself against them as an enemy,\tAnd He fought against them. 11 \tThen he remembered the days of old,\tMoses and his people, saying:\t“Where is He who brought them up out of the sea\tWith the shepherd of His flock?\tWhere is He who put His Holy Spirit within them, 12 \tWho led them by the right hand of Moses,\tWith His glorious arm,\tDividing the water before them\tTo make for Himself an everlasting name, 13 \tWho led them through the deep,\tAs a horse in the wilderness,\tThat they might not stumble?” 14 \tAs a beast goes down into the valley,\tAnd the Spirit of the LORD causes him to rest,\tSo You lead Your people,\tTo make Yourself a glorious name. 15 \tLook down from heaven,\tAnd see from Your habitation, holy and glorious.\tWhere are Your zeal and Your strength,\tThe yearning of Your heart and Your mercies toward me?\tAre they restrained? 16 \tDoubtless You are our Father,\tThough Abraham was ignorant of us,\tAnd Israel does not acknowledge us.\tYou, O LORD, are our Father;\tOur Redeemer from Everlasting is Your name. 17 \tO LORD, why have You made us stray from Your ways,\tAnd hardened our heart from Your fear?\tReturn for Your servants’ sake,\tThe tribes of Your inheritance. 18 \tYour holy people have possessed it but a little while;\tOur adversaries have trodden down Your sanctuary. 19 \tWe have become like those of old, over whom You never ruled,\tThose who were never called by Your name. What does Scripture teach us? In ChristJeff

I picked up one of the many Tozer books that I have purchased and not read. This book is called, "I Call It Heresy." This book is a compilation of thoughts that A. W. Tozer has penned over the years. In Chapter 3, You Can Have the Trappings, he writes about the "born again" miracle. He writes about what is missing in today's church. Here is a small part of what he writes about this miracle."I have read much and studied long the lives and ministries of many of the old saints of God in past generations. I am inclined to believe that many of them were better Christians when they were just newly-regenerated than the run of the so-called "deeper life" people whom I meet today.I think the difference is in the emphasis of the major miracle which we ought to expect in genuine Christian conversion. Those old-timers would not have believed if a major miracle had not taken place. They would never have been willing to accept a pale and apologetic kind of believing on the Son of God. They insisted on a miracle taking place within the human breast. They knew what Peter meant when he said that the Lord God "hath begotten us again unto a lively hope" (1:3)----and they accepted the principle of a miracle wrought in a human being through divine grace.In reading the Old Testament, we are reminded again and again of the possiblity of this miracle of cleansing and transformation."Create in me a clean heart, O God; and renew a right spirit within me" (Psalm 51:10)--there you have at least the hint of a miracle within the human being. The Old Testament men of God never told us that they had reasoned themselves into a position of faith and power--but that something had happened within their being that could not be naturally and fully explained!In Old Testament times, God plainly said:"But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people. (Jeremiah 31:33)Again in Ezekiel, God said:A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart flesh. And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgements, and do them...and ye shall be my people, and I will be your God. (36:26-28)I think you would have to call that a strong hint of regenesis and moral rebirth.But come along into the New Testament and you will find that it is no longer veiled--the supernatural miracle of the new birth is boldly and openly proclaimed...."pgs 29-31Do you hear how Scripture reveals the workings of God in the lives of men that are given to us as examples in how we too shall walk?In ChristJeff

Ack... this thread has gotten too long for me to track back through and argue. I hope you guys don't mind if I excuse myself from further replies to this subject. I did not have time the last month of school to get to this subject. The few posts I made online were quick ones that didn't require much of any argumentation. Maybe if I get really bored one day I'll go ahead and read through all these posts and type up something... but alas, I have souls on my heart right now. I hope to devote much of my free time this summer to door-to-door and open-air evangelism, as well as picking up some extra hours at work :)

Br. JimThankyou for starting the thread. No need to go through something you already know. It is all about the heart and how God circumcises it by His Spirit. And those who have the heart of Christ will be like minded as you have stated:but alas, I have souls on my heart right now. I hope to devote much of my free time this summer to door-to-door and open-air evangelism, as well as picking up some extra hours at work :)For me, as I continue in this thread, I continue to see more of Christ and the work of His hands in the lives that were called by the Father in the OT. It is a time of preparation for me also.In ChristJeff

Hosea 11-12:3 “I taught Ephraim to walk, Taking them by their arms; But they did not know that I healed them. 4 I drew them with gentle cords, With bands of love, And I was to them as those who take the yoke from their neck. I stooped and fed them. 7 My people are bent on backsliding from Me. Though they call to the Most High, None at all exalt Him.8 “How can I give you up, Ephraim? How can I hand you over, Israel? How can I make you like Admah? How can I set you like Zeboiim? My heart churns within Me; My sympathy is stirred. 6 So you, by the help of your God, return; Observe mercy and justice, And wait on your God continually. Hos. 14:4 “I will heal their backsliding, I will love them freely, For My anger has turned away from him. How does God heal those who have turned away from Him?In Christjeff

By the way, for those interested... I originally started this thread out of response to a paper my girlfriend was working on in school. Turns out I misunderstood what she was planning on writing about, and furthermore she ended up writing on another topic altogether :) Funny, eh?

I just read through this very long thread - wow! There sure was a lot of work put into it.I think that part of the struggle in this discussion has to do with our finite minds. We can only understand time according to our natural senses. Maybe some are trying to fit spritual realities into finite perception. I believe that the Old Testament people had to trust by FAITH in Christ just as much as we must trust by FAITH in the same redemption. I got thinking about my own spiritual life - how for many years I THOUGHT I was living according to the New Covenant promise. The church people told me I was saved because I had "asked Jesus into my heart" I was told I had the Spirit indwelling me. Many years later, the Spirit revealed to me that I was deceived. I had been relying on the voice of man. I had invited the church into my heart to be my saviour (unconsciously) Really, I had no idea what it meant to live by the Spirit - which is the abundant life that Christ promised. This discussion can go on forever - but the bottom line is: Where are we each really living - in the Old or the New Covenant. I was living according to the Old Covenant (ie according to the flesh). I believe that the institutionalized church follows the model of the Old Covenant - not the Spirit. We better be more cautious when we make blanket assumptions that because we live in the age of grace - "everyone" who calls themselves a Christian has the Spirit. In reality very few who think they are Christians really are. Like me, they are no different than those of the Old Testament who lived by the Old Covenant. They did not "enter in" and receive the "better" promise. (Heb)I'm thinking of starting a new thread on this based on my own life experience. I believe that it is a critical issue. Diane

A disturbing thought came to my mind. In my past years in church, I have noticed too many spiritual leaders who assumed that we Christians are so much more advanced than those ancient prophets. We are enlightened, we are more holy, we are filled with the Spirit ......What arrogance! Really - generally speaking, we Christians are just like the pharisees. We are blind, deaf, and spritually dull. The prophets HEARD God, they knew his truths because his Spirit dwelled within them. Their warnings speak to us today.""And we have the word of the prophets made more certain, and you will do well to PAY ATTENTION to it, as light shinking in a dark place, until the day dawns and the morning star RISES IN YOUR HEARTS." 2 Pet. 1:19 Note it says, "rises in your hearts", This is not a specific time in history - like Pentecost, but a condition of each individual heart.

Sister Diane wrote:I got thinking about my own spiritual life - how for many years I THOUGHT I was living according to the New Covenant promise. The church people told me I was saved because I had "asked Jesus into my heart" I was told I had the Spirit indwelling me. Many years later, the Spirit revealed to me that I was deceived. I had been relying on the voice of man. I had invited the church into my heart to be my saviour (unconsciously) Really, I had no idea what it meant to live by the Spirit - which is the abundant life that Christ promised. The Pharisees of the OT began to create there own religion because they didn't hear from God as their forefathers did. By the time Jesus became incarnate, the religious rulers of that day had written down the oral traditions of man. They always condemned Jesus for breaking their laws, for healing on the Sabbath. God through Amos forewarned of these times, few heard the word of God for many centuries. Listen to Amos 8:11 \t“Behold, the days are coming,” says the Lord GOD,\t“That I will send a famine on the land,\tNot a famine of bread,\tNor a thirst for water,\tBut of hearing the words of the LORD. 12 \tThey shall wander from sea to sea,\tAnd from north to east;\tThey shall run to and fro, seeking the word of the LORD,\tBut shall not find it.Sis, I believe that many churches today also live under the Old Covenant. Few know of the freedom that comes with hearing. Few know that faith comes from hearing the words of God. Many continue to try to summon up the strength in their own flesh to create their own faith. "They shall run to and fro, seeking the word of the Lord..." They run to the teachings of men. They run to seminar after seminar. They run to seminary after seminary. Yet they do not find it. 2Tim. 3:1 But know this, that in the last days perilous times will come: 2 For men will be lovers of themselves, lovers of money, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy, 3 unloving, unforgiving, slanderers, without self-control, brutal, despisers of good, 4 traitors, headstrong, haughty, lovers of pleasure rather than lovers of God, 5 having the form of godliness but denying its power.Many young believers have been turned away by such men. Many have become disillusioned with the religion of men because of hypocricy of those who are like the pharisees of the OT. Sister Diane, preach the good news of the kingdom. Turn them to Him in the way that He has taught you. In ChristJeff

Hosea 11:3 “I taught Ephraim to walk, Taking them by their arms; But they did not know that I healed them. 4 I drew them with gentle cords, With bands of love, And I was to them as those who take the yoke from their neck. I stooped and fed them. How many Christians today suffer as those of old. How many are there that do "not know that I healed them."In ChristJeff

Hey, Rookie, those scriptures really speak to me. They are relevent for today. I just started a new thread - since we are leaning towards discusison about the need for revival - not so much the original topic. So I'll start with me: Revival - God's finger pointing at me ( my own experience)found here: https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=5585&forum=40Diane

Micah 6:6 \tWith what shall I come before the LORD,\tAnd bow myself before the High God?\tShall I come before Him with burnt offerings,\tWith calves a year old? 7 \tWill the LORD be pleased with thousands of rams,\tTen thousand rivers of oil?\tShall I give my firstborn for my transgression,\tThe fruit of my body for the sin of my soul? 8 \tHe has shown you, O man, what is good;\tAnd what does the LORD require of you\tBut to do justly,\tTo love mercy,\tAnd to walk humbly with your God? Listen to what the Lord required of those during Micah's time. He required that they, "do justly, to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God." How could God require this if He himself did not provide the grace necessary for obedience?How only can we be obedient? Only by the Spirit!Zech. 4:6 So he answered and said to me:\t“This is the word of the LORD to Zerubbabel:\t‘Not by might nor by power, but by My Spirit,’\tSays the LORD of hosts. In Christ Jeff

In the book of James we find that he refer to the Scriptures which speak of the Spirit of God in the OT saints. Listen to the Scripture: James 4:4 Adulterers and adulteresses! Do you not know that friendship with the world is enmity with God? Whoever therefore wants to be a friend of the world makes himself an enemy of God. 5 Or do you think that the Scripture says in vain, “The Spirit who dwells in us yearns jealously”?Now many will say where in the OT Sciptures is this found. We do not see it so therefore no doctrine can be based on what James the apostle spoke about the Spirit of God indwelling in the OT saints. I found this today in my reading. Listen to what Scripture says.Malachi 2:14 \tYet you say, “For what reason?”\tBecause the LORD has been witness\tBetween you and the wife of your youth,\tWith whom you have dealt treacherously;\tYet she is your companion\tAnd your wife by covenant. 15 \tBut did He not make them one,\tHaving a remnant of the Spirit?\tAnd why one?\tHe seeks godly offspring.\tTherefore take heed to your spirit,\tAnd let none deal treacherously with the wife of his youth. 16 \t“For the LORD God of Israel says\tThat He hates divorce,\tFor it covers one’s garment with violence,”\tSays the LORD of hosts.\t“Therefore take heed to your spirit,\tThat you do not deal treacherously.” One must ask himself who is the wife in this Scripture? What is the nature of the covenant that this Scripture speaks too? Also look to the warning about man's spirit dealing treacherously with the Lord. Therefore take heed to your spirit,\tAnd let none deal treacherously with the wife of his youth. As it is in Genesis 3:1515 \tAnd I will put enmity\tBetween you and the woman,\tAnd between your seed and her Seed;\tHe shall bruise your head,\tAnd you shall bruise His heel.” The woman and the wife are the same. They are one. They represent the power of the Holy Spirit regenerating men's hearts. Malachi 2:15 \tBut did He not make them one,\tHaving a remnant of the Spirit?\tAnd why one?\tHe seeks godly offspring.Do you choose to hear?In ChristJeff