Scripture Proof - 'Pretrib' Is Not The Truth

Personally I don't want to actually discuss this matter, and therefore don't put it into the other thread, because many here want to simply express their own understanding, and not what the Bible teaches. This short look at scripture is only for those that care about the truth, and not what people think or like, or what any respected teacher or denomination teaches, since it all does not matter even one tiny bit. This is only about Jesus' and Pauls' words, and not about a secret rapture not mentioned anywhere in the Bible for all 'too good to suffer' super duper saints. I was one of those once, that was before I understood this one separation God makes to filter out 'super duper saints': Philippians 1:29  For unto you it is given in the behalf of Christ, not only to believe on him, but also to suffer for his sake;

Once I got touched by the truth on my (back then) very firm pretrib position I had to publicly appologize to a lot of people since I had previously thaught them my own understanding in this matter, and not what the Bible teaches. That is no small matter, God holds us all responsible on this, and some to their public shame and even death because of their great mistake to misinform and not prepare the flock.

So let's ask Jesus himself about when He said he is coming back:

Matthew 24:29  Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

The Son of man is coming Immediately AFTER the tribulation according to his own statement. If you follow him and not any other you will respect that above of what anybody else teaches. If you ignore it, you are none of his, just yet. His sheep only hear His voice. Not human philosophy.

1 Thessalonians 4:16  For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

Paul describes that event further, and adds a significant second event that happens earlier yet at the same time: "the dead in Christ shall rise first" - He describes the first resurrection, the first ever mention of a mass resurrection of believers that comes BEFORE we together with them (if we are still alive) are caught up in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. So the first resurrection come BEFORE the rapture.

Revelation 20:4  And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

Another clear description of the event of the first resurrection. We can clearly and without any doubt identify that when it happens the mark of the beast already has happened earlier. The first resurrection comes AFTER the tribulation of the beast. And so Matthew 24:29 is proven to be 100% correct: Jesus also is coming Immediately AFTER the tribulation of those days.

So the correct sequence is: 1) tribulation of those days -> 2) first resurrection -> 3) Jesus is coming in the clouds with power and great glory

Then the wrath of God starts, everything else before that is just the antichrist trying to establish his NWO and hold everyone firmly under his rule for 42 months.

Now if you are able to see the clear order of things it really depends on you and who do you love more: The truth of Jesus and Paul or false teachers that tickle your ears, in order to confirm to you what you think should be the truth, but is not. That's the choice you have to make, and it's healthier you make it now, because later you will possibly go into full-denial of reality and will loose your faith when you realized you have been lied to by your favorite teacher when it becomes all to evident that we are all "left behind" to face the trial God allows to come upon us all, everyone that dwells on this earth.

The tribulation of those days is not the wrath of God, these two are clearly separated in scripture. True believers of Jesus Christ will be "kept" during that time, not taken out. It's the wicked that will be taken out first, as confirmed in multiple scripture references.

So some really clever teaching of lies wants us to identify with the wicked that will actually be 'taken first' - while making us believe the exact opposite is happening, and even makes us think to be special while identifying with the wicked. Classic play on our natural vanity, at its best. Eventually all wicked will be removed from the earth, because earth does not belong to them, it belongs to the saints during the mill. reign of Christ Jesus.

John 17:15  I pray not that thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that thou shouldest keep them from the evil.

Revelation 3:10  Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.

So that we might be found worthy when this trial shall come upon all the world. Amen!

Quote: "Beyond that you would have to look further to see that there is also a pretrib rapture as well"

Not one verse in context. None. Not in the Bible.

You're talking to one of once most vocal pretribers of the entire 'christian internet' here, and I defended it with the best of arguments known to mankind, and also know almost every pretrip article of the last 8 years since I published them to my newsletter readers. Its easy to see now how they're constructed, I seriously have to laugh about such low tactics. They all jump to conclusions at one or several points to cover for the emptiness of their claims. These authors absolutely deserve to be held accountable, and we for believing their lies. And I repent and am deeply sorry to have contributed to that confusion.

For all that have missed the simple logic of the 3 verses that are tied together around the coming of Christ and the resurrection of the dead saints, I give you a little hint:

There can only be one (1) FIRST resurrection. Now read them again and Think!

How long will be pastors of mainstream denominations be allowed to make a mockery of the word of God and deceive children to believe their non-scriptural fairytales? Don't they have any respect for the truth?

-

////You're talking to one of once most vocal pretribers of the entire 'christian internet' here, and I defended it with the best of arguments known to mankind, and also know almost every pretrip article of the last 8 years since I published them to my newsletter readers. Its easy to see now how they're constructed, I seriously have to laugh about such low tactics. They all jump to conclusions at one or several points to cover for the emptiness of their claims. These authors absolutely deserve to be held accountable, and we for believing their lies. And I repent and am deeply sorry to have contributed to that confusion.///

Hi a-servant

This seems to be very common, someone whom is indoctrinated pretrib, reads the scriptures for themselves and conclude that the Bible does not teach the such.

And yet as of now(and I am sure I will be corrected on this thread.) I have never heard of a post trib read the Scripture for themselves and conclude that the Scriptures teach pretrib

The Scripture seems to me to teach clearly that the wheat and tares will grow together untill the time of harvest, at harvest the tares will be bundled to burn and the Wheat will than be gathered into the barn,

Their does not seem to be a replanting of the Wheat, nor a few immature wheat LEFT BEHIND to than be harvested with the tares.

1 Thessalonians 4:14-18 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

Revelation 2:11 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; He that overcometh shall not be hurt of the second death.

Revelation 20:6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

Revelation 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

Revelation 21:8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

John 14:1-4 Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me. In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also. And whither I go ye know, and the way ye know.

Not on this earth, but in my Father's House, where we are already seated in the heavenly places in In Christ Jesus. The Father's House that comes down from heaven, the New Jerusalem that we come with God And Jesus who are the light thereof, no sun needed.

Word of God Speak.

In Christ: Phillip

quote: "To that end in simplicity I can see two raptures in the scriptures. One being visible and clear, the other being hidden, needing to be sought out."

They call it "secret" rapture for a reason. Because it's hidden so well, only the "illuminated" are able to detect it.

You know, this all reminds me of the stage trick where one guy hypnotizes a large group of people, and non of them can reason anymore with the slightest quantity of intellectual honesty. They simply do not have the ability anymore to even detect the smallest piece of reality on a given subject. I was there once in this regard, so I know that for a fact it had me blinded for a time, I did not care what Jesus or anyone else said.

If you fall over this how do you think you will be able to even detect the mark of the beast? Ever heard this saying before:

"this cannot be the mark yet because we haven't been raptured yet"

You will hear it a lot at time when they introduce it on the market. Can you see what consequences that will have advising other people then, especially for someone that thinks to have a endtimes ministry?

How about you try to be honest to yourself and find the last trumpet in the scriptures, the one Paul is talking about here:

1 Corinthians 15:52  In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

If there is such a trumpet in Revelation, you will be able to identify it. And then tell us what happens before that, any other trumpet before that cannot be the "LAST" trumpet. Unless you're hypnotized, of course.

It can cure some truly honest people from "hidden secret stuff" someone else has invented to cause maximum confusion at the time when people need help and guidance the most.

If I may share something that's been on my heart. Lately, every time I come to sermonindex, I have been going away not feeling very good. More and more I see people arguing about this and that instead of exhorting one another and discussing/debating topics with one another seasoned by grace, patience, and thoughtfulness. Much of what I have been reading by certain posters on this forum I feel are not filled with the fruit of the Spirit but rather pride and trying to prove a point and win an argument rather than building up in love; I seriously come away from it with a weariness in my heart, to the extent of me not wanting to participate in this forum any longer. In other words, I have been deeply grieved and hurt by some of the things posted in this forum instead of coming away blessed and encouraged and edified. Sorry to be so open, but I love this community and I have been blessed by so many of you on here in the past, and that is why I wanted to share my heart and plead with you all to remember that none of us are perfect in knowledge, and although theology and doctrine is a hugely important element of the Christian faith, even this without love and humility before the Lord and one another is absolutely vain and meaningless. Let us strive to be careful what we say and even how we phrase things, because we might in our over-zelaousness offend our Lord and Savior by making cavalier statements that wrongfully judge and condemn fellow members of the body of Christ; calling them "none of His" for disagreeing on a particular point of theology which is basically calling them unregenerate sinners because they don't agree with you on a not-essential for salvation issue (but not saying things like eschatology aren't important). let us strive to really show grace to others because we, the chief of sinners worthy of hell, were shown the unmerited grace and favor of our Lord Jesus Christ who drew us to Himself through such meekness, humility, gentleness, and lowliness, which we are all called to follow in like manner. i truly pray that God would search our hearts and daily remind us of how small we really are and how desperately we need Him every single day in everything we do and that He would give us more grace to love Him and others more for the the glory of His great name. thanks for reading my small rant and i truly hope it helps bless this wonderful forum that i appreciate and love so much. God bless you guys =)

The forum is just that, and the postings reveal what people think in the imperfection in which we all live. Don't be dicouraged!

No one's opinions are above the scrutiny of the other posters, and a bit of wrangling should be expected. For me, I love a well reasoned argument and I will tend to do two things- resort to finding a source of humor, or bring in a thought that relates to the discussion from another angle.

But above all, I am constrained by the Spirit Who lives within me to love all the brethren and sisters and not to be insulting or rude. I find it hard to learn and appreciate people who act like that to me.

It is interesting to watch two attorneys go after each other in court, and when the judge ends the day's proceedings see the men say to each other,

"So, will you and Martha be joining Sandy and me at the Lexington for dinner? Say around 7:30? Golf on Wednesday?"

They learn as we should, separate the intellectual disagreements from brotherly love. We know that we will never on this side of Glory agree on everything!

Might I suggest a daring step for some of you? Put your email address in your profile, so that you can be contacted!

Warning- mine is out there, and I get daily spam including the pleading from Nigerian doctors who have millions in the bank they want to give me.

Yeah right. But I do like personal contact and trust God to protect me in wisdom.

A-servant,

I'm not at trying to be offensive but you're coming across to others as a person lacking in love and kindness toward others who have a view that you say you once had yourself.

It seems like you have gone from one extreme to another extreme and over what- a theological view. Do you honestly think that Jesus wants us to be divisive over differing views?

I have always, since I got saved, believed that I was suppose to watch and pray for you know not what hour The Lord may come but I can fellowship with people who sincerely love The Lord but have different endtime views.

Blessings...from brother rbanks

RE: ////If you fall over this how do you think you will be able to even detect the mark of the beast? Ever heard this saying before:
"this cannot be the mark yet because we haven't been raptured yet"
You will hear it a lot at time when they introduce it on the market. Can you see what consequences that will have advising other people then, especially for someone that thinks to have a endtimes ministry? ////

This is why I am so passionate about this subject.
But the majority of Christendom seems to be osas, so to them such a warning is futile. and such subjects are irrelevant.

"And ultimately, and we all know this, the mark of the beast will come, and you will not be able to buy or sell without it. Which means we will all come to poverty if not starvation. We need to change our mind about materilism ..." - Denny Kenaston

(Early Anabaptism) The Approaching Wave of Persecution
https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/mydownloads/visit.php?lid=17842

"What if tomorrow morning you got the daily newspaper and on the front page of the daily newspaper you saw these words written across there: "cashless society, all peoples have two months to make the transition to cashless society".
Oh, it would be presented so beautifuly , so nicely and so wonderfully and inviting to all of us:
'That its so much easer to deal with all the terrorist and all of those things, that if we just went with a cashless society, and you do not need a credit card anymore. And all you need to do is, get a little mark in your wrist in your hand and maybe one on your forehead and everything is going to be alright and you got to months to transist into this cashless society'." (to refuse that mark will be Gelassenheit) — Denny Kenaston

(Early Anabaptism) Gelassenheit—Complete Surrender
https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/mydownloads/visit.php?lid=17838

Quote: " This is why I am so passionate about this subject. But the majority of Christendom seems to be osas, so to them such a warning is futile. and such subjects are irrelevant."

Well, good to hear that not all here are sound asleep and someone actually understands the whole scope of the problem. I didn't want to particularly go into this subject of consequences of buying into hidden "la-la land doctrines" that always comes at a great cost, and the real danger of sending other people to hell by sheer ignorance, as taking the mark is the trial for all of us that are alive today, and that is an actual biblical event that will come also on the ignorant.

Let's face it, if you're ready now to put your trust into things that are not visible in the Bible you already qualify to join any non-biblical cult at any given time. And you are not safe from falling into even greater danger. You need to wake up, and regain what is lost, that's the call of love to you.

About the cashless society: Not many people actually know what has happened behind the scenes in 2008 in top financial circles, we have been on the verge of total bankruptcy and days away from absolute system crash. We are now in the extended "extra-time" already, because someone in charge decided to print tons of paper money to prolong the illusion of a working economy for a certain time, until they are ready to orchestrate the planned system crash with other events that are also planned together for their desired system change and a new world order. This can happen at any time, market insiders know it's going to happen and its in process when they start to manipulate the metal exchange market. Which already is underway as we speak. The goal is to invalidate exisiting assets and offer/force new credits both on industries and individuals. Then when everyone is in massive debt by taking on new, almost interest free credits, all bail out credits will stop. Their think-tank that always tells things 1 or 2 years ahead of time before they implement it, already announced these exact plans, its already published as official plans in all the major newspapers, Bernanke agreed. So it's not a matter of "if" but only "when" this will start to wipe out any form of cash or other liquid assets. Almost everyone will be in debt, and ready for the offered "solution".

It was once said here that it takes a certain age to be able to discern both good and evil. This is one of these things, and I cannot tone it down to accommodate such a heavy matter to children. If you're too young to discuss meaty matters be so kind to know your limitations and not respond to a thread that is above your understanding, I say this to all the rest of you that call truth and reality "offensive", which shows that you prefer to stay in the "middle of the road" and don't like either hot nor cold. Well this isn't it, please be so kind to allow us older folks also sometimes to talk among ourselves on our level of understanding.

RE:///Well, good to hear that not all here are sound asleep and someone actually understands the whole scope of the problem. I didn't want to particularly go into this subject of consequences of buying into hidden "la-la land doctrines" that always comes at a great cost, and the real danger of sending other people to hell by sheer ignorance, as taking the mark is the trial for all of us that are alive today, and that is an actual biblical event that will come also on the ignorant.///

I would be more susceptible to believe the modern perspectives concerning eschatology, If it where not for dreams which where clear warnings, that I recieved at a very young age, before I new anything of the Scriptures or had hardly even stepped foot in a church building.

I have been well aware my entire life that every scheme known to man will be used by the enemy to convince us that the mark is not the mark.

I have been well aware that many whom will appear as humble pious sounding brethren, will recieve and try to convince me and all others to receive the mark.

The true remnant has always been much smaller than the professing remnant. And often the true remnant has had to stand completely alone and recieve persecution that could be avoided simply by seemingly small compromises.

If I am wrong than that is OK.

If I am right, than we have an unprepared church whoms doctrines are going to make it very difficult for them to refuse the mark.

If what Denny Kenaston said does come to pass ,(and it sure does look like it will.) than all of you whom are reading this, will you except the mark or Gelassenheit ?

brother Andrew I have to say I scence the same thing as you ,,,,,but personly I lean toward post trib ,or maby mid trib ,,,so when I say this it not because I believe in pretribulation just the spirit mokery is strong

god bless us all have mercy on us

Great post PP, I do share both your experience at a young age as well as your conviction,

"I would be more susceptible to believe the modern perspectives concerning eschatology"

Well, did you have a look around on christian forums that have a dedicated eschatology section, lately? I was active on a few of them the last 10 years, but to my horror they are moving backwards to even leave all biblical orientation and embrace wilder distortions now than I ever imagined possible. We are warned that the end times will be like this, getting worse and worse and you cannot ask them to stick with sound doctrine anymore, neither would they know what it is. I'm sorry to say, eschatology today is almost dead, I try to still read it, but it's almost not possible anymore to find anyone that isn't off-scripture to the larger part of their speech, and basically not worth reading.

"I have been well aware that many whom will appear as humble pious sounding brethren, will recieve and try to convince me and all others to receive the mark."

You wouldn't be wrong, that's why I concentrate mostly on my family now, you might know that Satan has a way to always attack a family unit through the weakest members. Educate them and you will do well.

"If I am right, than we have an unprepared church whoms doctrines are going to make it very difficult for them to refuse the mark."

You are correct, I haven't told you my full take on this yet, this forum would not be able to cope with it. They think to attack the messanger is a virtue and worthwhile contribution.

Well, this is the general mindset of our time, compromise and shallowness are the standard, and truth is a strange thing to them. The difficult part is, when they realize that all the warnings suddenly come true to us in real time, it's almost to late to influence them to stick with biblical truth. The learning process to put our faith in the real Jesus is active now, now we learn the lessons to fully trust him in even these "impossible situations".

One elder I respect always said, "the Holy Spirt is most likely teaching you the very same things that he is teaching me right now" and I can say this for sure that this is what I have been learning lately, to fully trust him "against all odds" and one of these miracles has taken place just two weeks ago, where human logic + human law says one thing, but Jesus made a decision above all that so even a local government changed their proceedings against their usual guidelines, and one official of them said to my wife "It looks like God is with you". Very dramatic, every time we forget it he reminds us, with Jesus really everything is possible, IF He is for it, not even a government can be against it.

Andrew,

I appreciate you brother and the wisdom in your writings. I like the fact that you don't take sides on issues as a respect to particular persons but clearly on the Lord's side to strive to bring forth His truth in Love as He has called you to do.

a-servant,

I am not disputing the truth in your writings but if you think the attitude and the strong accusations you have made toward the Lords people is from The Lord or pleasing to him, then you truly know nothing yet as you ought to know.

Blessings...from brother rbanks

////Well, this is the general mindset of our time, compromise and shallowness are the standard, and truth is a strange thing to them. The difficult part is, when they realize that all the warnings suddenly come true to us in real time, it's almost to late to influence them to stick with biblical truth. The learning process to put our faith in the real Jesus is active now, now we learn the lessons to fully trust him in even these "impossible situations".////

In first kings ch 13 we read of a man of God out of Judah, whom God spoke clearly to and instructed clearly to. and whom was willing to obey God.

But than came a pious, humble sounding old prophet, claiming how he also was a prophet of God and how he had heard God say just the opposite as what the man of God had known that he had heard.

The man of God out of Judah listened to the feigned words of that pious, humble sounding old prophet and he compromised his inward certainty that God had given him, only to find out in the end that the old prophet had lied to him.
Even though the man of God out of Judah had been lied to, God punished him for his compromise and for listening to the old lying prophet.

And they will say: 'This can not be the mark, Jesus has not came back yet.'

Or, well It has not yet been required globaly so this must not be the mark. (It will be!)

No this for certainty, when you can not buy nor sell without it, and their is no religious exemption offered, It is the mark!

Edit :PS: For any whom may have got the wrong impression, that I am implying that the old lying prophet was pious or humble, that was not what I was trying to convey.
I was trying to convey that the 'man of God out of Judah' had probably wrongfuly precieved that the old lying prophet was humble and pious, and thus is why he was so susceptible to the old prophets lies.

This is also interesting!

1 Kings 22:19-23 (NKJV)
Then Micaiah said, “Therefore hear the word of the Lord:I saw the Lord sitting on His throne, and all the host of heaven standing by, on His right hand and on His left. 20 And the Lord said, ‘Who will persuade Ahab to go up, that he may fall at Ramoth Gilead? ’ So one spoke in this manner, and another spoke in that manner. 21 Then a spirit came forward and stood before the Lord, and said, ‘I will persuade him. ’ 22 The Lord said to him, ‘In what way? ’ So he said, ‘I will go out and be a lying spirit in the mouth of all his prophets. ’ And the Lord said, ‘You shall persuade him, and also prevail. Go out and do so. ’ 23 Therefore look! The Lord has put a lying spirit in the mouth of all these prophets of yours, and the Lord has declared disaster against you.”

2 Thessalonians 1:7-12 (NKJV)
and to give you who are troubled rest with us when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with His mighty angels, 8 in flaming fire taking vengeance on those who do not know God, and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ. 9 These shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power, 10 when He comes, in that Day, to be glorified in His saints and to be admired among all those who believe, because our testimony among you was believed.
11 Therefore we also pray always for you that our God would count you worthy of this calling, and fulfill all the good pleasure of His goodness and the work of faith with power, 12 that the name of our Lord Jesus Christ may be glorified in you, and you in Him, according to the grace of our God and the Lord Jesus Christ.

2 Thessalonians 2:3-12 (NKJV)
Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition, 4 who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God or that is worshiped, so that he sits as God in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God.
5 Do you not remember that when I was still with you I told you these things? 6 And now you know what is restraining, that he may be revealed in his own time. 7 For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work; only He who now restrains will do so until He is taken out of the way. 8 And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord will consume with the breath of His mouth and destroy with the brightness of His coming. 9 The coming of the lawless one is according to the working of Satan, with all power, signs, and lying wonders, 10 and with all unrighteous deception among those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth, that they might be saved. 11 And for this reason God will send them strong delusion, that they should believe the lie, 12 that they all may be condemned who did not believe the truth but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

Blessings...from rbanks

"And they will say: 'This can not be the mark, Jesus has not came back yet."

True this. And I have another one of that kind:

And they will say the lawless one has not been revealed yet.

What they mean is, not revealed to them. Don't fall for this mis-judgment of what they perceive as reality, he has been revealed.

"Know this for certainty, when you can not buy nor sell without it, and their is no religious exemption offered, It is the mark!"

You're on the spot with that last statement, never go into any discussion with anyone that argues over such things as "what does buy or sell mean in spirtual terms" Simply say thank you and leave that discussion, these people usually are able to look at a blue wall paint and inject the idea that the spritual essence of that colour is without a doubt green and not blue.

One thing we cannot overlook in that discussion, and that is, there is a form of delusion that isn't cureable, because when God sends it, it will stick without wearing off:

2 Thessalonians 2:11  And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:

What's the cause? No love of the truth. That's also what brings America down right now, they don't hate lies anymore, now they hate the ones that reminds them that lies exisit. Of course you cannot possibly love the truth then, because it requires to take sides, and strongly so. America had this quality once, mabe you can say in the 1970's you could ring a doorbell at almost any house and still find it by the end of the day. Not today, only compromise with darkness and delusion as the natural progression of that sickness of the mind. Pray, you don't have any understanding of how late the hour truly is, especially for America. It's been systematically destroyed from within. And how many can even recognize that? You need to acknowlege something in order to fight it. America has lost that fight, they simply don't love the truth anymore.

RE: ///...these people usually are able to look at a blue wall paint and inject the idea that the spritual essence of that colour is without a doubt green and not blue.///

very well said.

by proudpapa on 2013/6/30 14:18:48

RE: //// If you fall over this how do you think you will be able to even detect the mark of the beast? Ever heard this saying before: "this cannot be the mark yet because we haven't been raptured yet" You will hear it a lot at times when they introduce it on the market. Can you see what consequences that will have advising other people then, especially for someone that thinks to have a endtimes ministry? ////

This is why I am so passionate about this subject.But the majority of Chistendom seems to be osas, so to them such a waring is futile. and such subjecs are irrelevent.

I agree... it was a waste a means to an end, perhaps... and yet truth remains, in the inner most part of our human existence... frailty shredded and thrown into the abyss... born of the Spirit and living in the flesh... hoping for a regeneration... and rightfully so... the Pretrib and Posttrib of end times... the flex ation and sanctification of a thought life deep in foreknowledge and void of sin and compassion... living in fragments of infatuation over the imaginery truth that lies within the hope of our faith... it was a waste in vain to the unknown... to those who know, life and peace..

Quote: Pray, you don't have any understanding of how late the hour truly is, especially for America

When God called me he spoke about the days, one thing he warned me about was timings and not going too soon, he warned me about that the devil was going to try and push to get me out of the timings and out from under his protection.

So yes the hours is late but it’s still time to hold and wait, it’s not the time yet for God to move, what we should do is fix our eyes on him and let him prepare us, for the greatest Move of God to hit this planet.

God will have a people that will come of victorious over the beast, his name and his image.

Quote: """One thing we cannot overlook in that discussion, and that is, there is a form of delusion that isn't cureable, because when God sends it, it will stick without wearing off:"""

What delusion is that? Is it like Peter when he cut off the ear of the Roman soldier? Are we trying to stop what is inevitably going to happen? Why are we not after the heart of God's work, helping those God sends us to enter the Kingdom of God by the life of Jesus Christ that is birthed In us.

What is to be done away with when that which is perfect comes?

1 Corinthians 13:10-13 But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away. When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things. For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known. And now abideth faith, hope, charity, these three; but the greatest of these is charity.

Is He come in the lives of those who believe? This is the biggest question I know of that all should come to the answer; Colossians 1:27-28 To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory: Whom we preach, warning every man, and teaching every man in all wisdom; that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus:

No matter what we think, say, or do; it will be done God's way.

He is our perfection;

In Him: Phillip

To return to the original intention of this thread here a little bit of history with exerpts from an article by Jim Searcy for believers that have no idea where the pretrib teaching originally comes from.

Most of us know about Darby, and heard about Margaret MacDonald. But they are only contributing parts of the story, not the original source, as Jim's excellent research and article reveals, which starts here:

Short History of Pre-Trib Rapture Doctrine

-- "All roads lead to Rome" --

Most of us know people who believe in a pre-tribulation rapture. As a result, such are not building up their most holy faith to endure to the END of this Antichrist War on the Saints. Thinking one will be raptured BEFORE the antichrist war on the saints is NOT good preparation to endure to the END of such a war. The Lord made it explicit that IMMEDIATELY AFTER the Tribulation is when He sends His angels for His elect. Matt 24:29-31. Perhaps a short true history of who, how, and when the pre-tribulation rapture doctrines originated would be helpful for you to help those whom you know to be in denial or failing to prepare because of this Jesuit doctrine. Jesuit? Yes, two Jesuit priests laid the foundations of the pre-trib rapture doctrine, unknown in the history of the Church, prior to the Reformation.

At the time of the Reformation, the vast majority of Protestants were convinced that the Pope was the personification of the antichrist. Most today now understand the pope to be the second beast, the false prophet of the antichrist prince. However, at the time of the Reformation, it was universally believed by all Protestants, that the Roman Church was the Harlot Religion System of Revelation seventeen. Today there is still good cause to see the Roman Church as the religious component of Babylon, meaning confusion, in the antichrist war on the saints.

This understanding that the Roman Church is the Religious Babylon brought millions of believers out of the Roman Catholic religious system, during the Reformation. Understanding that the Roman Church is the religious component of the confusion of Babylon, in the antichrist war on the saints in these last days, will also bring millions from the bondage of the Roman Church to freedom in Christ.

Because of how many during the Reformation saw the Roman Church as the Babylon harlot of Religion, it became expedient for certain Roman theologians to turn the attention of the people away from the Papacy. Indeed the Jesuits were responsible for the origin of the pre- tribulation rapture doctrines. It was two Jesuit priests who rightly deserve the title as the founders of pre-tribulation rapture doctrines. These two Jesuits invented a counter-interpretation to that held unanimously by the Protestants. They taught that the revelation of the antichrist was at some far distant date. In the entire history of the Church prior to the writings of these two Jesuit priests all believed the eminent Resurrection, Rapture, and Return of the Lord was a single simultaneous event, happening in the twinkling of an eye, on the last day, at the last trump. When is the Last Day? When is the Last Trump?

It was a Jesuit priest named Ribera who, in the days of the Reformation, first taught the basic ideas of the pre-tribulation rapture. Just putting the revealing of the antichrist way off in the future was a very effective way of taking the heat off of the Papacy during the Reformation. Then another Jesuit priest named Emmanuel Lacunza, built on Ribera's teachings and wrote a book called The Coming of Messiah in Glory and Majesty. True to Jesuit style and stealth, Lacunza knew the Protestants were not going to widely receive a book written by a Jesuit priest. The Jesuit, Lacunza, therefore wrote his book under the assumed name of Rabbi Ben Ezra. This fictitious Rabbi Ben Ezra, was presented in Lacunza's book as a scholarly Jewish Rabbi who had accepted Christ as his Savior. By this ploy the Jesuit Lacunza was able to get his book to have a good reception in the Protestant world. No Protestants in the Reformation era would have allowed a copy of The Coming of Messiah in Glory and Majesty in their homes if they had any idea that the book was written by a Jesuit.

Because Lacunza presented the book as written by a scholarly Jewish Rabbi who had become a Christian believer in the Lord Jesus Christ, he knew the Protestants would love and receive his Jesuit book. The Jesuits certainly have not gotten less subtle, and it does not seem the Church has gotten more discerning. Lacunza's book, The Coming of Messiah in Glory and Majesty, was a very successful, elaborate forgery. In his book, Lacunza taught the new idea that Jesus returns TWICE, or TWO Second Comings. The Jesuit Lacunza was the first in all history to teach two second comings of the Lord Jesus Christ. Lacunza taught that at the first stage of His return He raptures His Church so they can escape the reign of the future antichrist. His book was first published in Spanish in the 1812.

Shortly after Lacunza's book was published, a Protestant leader in England by the name of Edward Irving discovered Lacunza's book. Edward Irving translated Lacunza's book into English in 1827. The Encyclopedia Britannica, volume 12, 1966 issue, pages 648-649, describe Edward Irving and the controversy over his teachings in Scotland and England in the early 1800's. He was excommunicated by the London presbytery, and in 1833 was condemned and deposed from the ministry of the Church of Scotland because of his teaching concerning "the sinfulness of Christ's humanity". He also began to teach a "rapture of the Church", after a young Scottish girl by the name of Margaret MacDonald went into a trance and described a vision in which she said she saw the Saints leaving the earth at the return of the Lord, before the tribulation. Her trance and vision took place in the spring of 1830, while living in Port Glasgow, Scotland. Her "revelation" was recorded in a book written by R. N. Norton and printed in London in 1861.

John Nelson Darby was a leader and prolific writer among the Plymouth Brethren. Darby was part of the Irvingite movement. He was strongly influenced by Irving, and Lucunza's book which Irving had translated into English, and particularly by the book by Norton, of the vision of Margret MacDonald. By 1850 John Darby had organized the Jesuit fraud of TWO second comings of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the pre- tribulation rapture fraud, into a system of prophetic teachings called dispensationalism.

In 1860's John Darby was put on the payroll of the British East India company. The British East India Company has historically been held by the Illuminati blood lines of European royalty, (Greek kings as Daniel would call them). John Darby was sent to America with the specific Illuminati goal of weakening the strong faith of American Christians. Darby's dispensationalism was sure to be successful in America in that purpose for which he was put on the Illuminati payroll.

Americans were and have been proven to be particularly easy to be taken by the Jesuit originated, non-scriptural, doctrines of pre-trib lala land. The reason is because of what is the make up of the people group known as Americans. Perhaps the best way of describing the American people group is one which came from a stock of hard working, risk taking, God fearing, people, who delight in making plans and take special delight in having their plans come together. Americans are good planners. As a people group they do not even want God messing up their plans, unless He would pouf them out in a fabled pre- trib rapture to heaven before anything bad would happen to otherwise mess up their plans.

In America in the 1860's Darby's dispensational TWO SECOND COMINGS dispensational interpretations met with wide open reception across the entire spectrum of American Protestant and biblical Christianity. A lawyer of very dubious character who had become a Congregationalist preacher, named C.I. Scofield came under the influence of Darby and the Plymouth Brethren. That brought the Scofield Reference bible and most know the history from that point certainly has led to the great apostasy, not the rapture, but the great falling away from The Faith.

For a good, short, clear verification of this history I would just recommend looking at the article title DISPENSATION which James L. Blevins wrote in the Holman Bible Dictionary. J. Preston Eby has also done some fine work on this subject. Perhaps the best and most comprehensive work on the subject of the history and background of pre-trib rapture doctrines has been done by Dave Macpherson. Dave Macpherson is the author of The Rapture Plot, The Incredible Cover Up, The Great Rapture Hoax, Unbelievable Pre-Trib Origin and Late Great Pre-Trib Rapture. All of Dave Macpherson's books are excellent, well written, and well researched. The best source of truth on the subject however, is the more sure word written in the KJV Holy Bible. The GJiGT book can also be a particularly helpful tool in regard to illustrating what the more sure word of God says in full context on the subject of the Great Tribulation. How the GJiGT book is organized makes it useful to quickly debunk any pre-trib supposed proof texts wrested from their context.

The Scofield Reference Bible was destined to have a tremendous impact upon the beliefs of many. There were three million copies published in the first 50 years. Through this Bible, Scofield carried the teaching of the TWO Second Comings and the two stage rapture to almost the whole of American Christianity. It is truly amazing when one finds that this TWO Second Comings, and a pre-tribulation rapture for the super duper saints, and three and a half years of hell on earth for the not so super duper saints, is NOT supported by a single verse of scripture in context rightly divided by the Holy Ghost. Astonishing, yet as Fly told Babe – That is just the way things are. Also, The Lord Jesus Christ said it would be like this – that in these last days of such strong delusion, with such a vast majority of false teachers having been taught these Jesuit doctrines, in the Jesuit infiltrated Protestant seminaries, - Mat 24:24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall show great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.

The truth train of history of pre-trib rapture doctrine begins with two Jesuit priests. The first was named Ribera. His writings influenced the Jesuit priest Lacunza. Lacunza influenced Irving, Irving influenced Darby, Darby influenced Scofield, Scofield and Darby influenced D.L. Moody, and Moody influenced a very large part of evangelical Christianity, and almost the entire Pentecostal movement. Someone once said all roads lead to Rome, and in the case of the pre-trib rapture doctrines that remains accurate.

Andrew, I have not studied the rapture as completely as you have, but In what little I did study only revealed that there were two or three camps of the coming of the Lord.

I did not in trying to rightly divide the Word of God, have any trouble with the rapture happening before the tribulation. I just believed what Paul said and by the Holy Spirit came to the comfort of 1 Thess and the rest of scripture that proofed the rapture as the Word of God.

Just like dispensations, if Paul used them, that was good enough for me. Then I found that dispensationalists were cursed by most of Christendom.

As you say the proof for me was Matt 24, which gives specific times and places of the tribulation and the abomination of desolation setting on the earthly throne of God, matching up what Daniel spoke of. That did not match up with, being ready but not knowing the time of when my Lord will come for me. So along with all the rest of scripture being rightly divided by the Spirit of God, I can't blame some young lady for propagation of the rapture.

This hit my funny bone, I love it; " "Hail Margaret full of grace, blessed art thou among visionaries, pray for us sinners at the time of the rapture." "

Thank you for your toil in this important truth of Christ coming for His Bride, as any good man would, to keep her from harm of such evil as emanates from the throne of God on this earth until the true God has overcome and put down the counterfeit and put him in chains for 1000 years.

Always being ready to go to our Father's House with Jesus Christ taking us to the place He has, is and will prepare for those that are His Body the Church, His Bride.

Matthew 24:27-28 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together.

Not as The Body of Christ only hearing His shout and the trump of God.

In Christ: Phillip

Quote "Darby himself claims the revelation of the rapture came to him when he realized the distinction between Israel and the church."

A truth which has now been lost, ignored or, more so today, muddied.

Can I quote an extract from one of J N Darby's letters, which will perhaps shed some light.

"But, I add, to me the Lord’s coming is not a question of prophecy, but my present hope. Events before His judging the quick are the subject of prophecy; His coming to receive the church is our present, heavenly hope. There is no event between me and heaven. There are between this time and Christ’s judgment of the earth. Now we are blessed with Christ; as His bride and His body, we appear with Him, reign with Him: the great peculiar blessing of the church is being associated with Christ Himself. The government of the world is another thing; prophecy lights up that as a candle in a dark place, but I am of the day. It is this especially Christians have to learn that they are one with Christ, blessed with Him"
(Letters of J N Darby Section 10)

Quote: "The truth train of history of pre-trib rapture doctrine begins with two Jesuit priests. The first was named Ribera. His writings influenced the Jesuit priest Lacunza. Lacunza influenced Irving, Irving influenced Darby, Darby influenced Scofield, Scofield and Darby influenced D.L. Moody, and Moody influenced a very large part of evangelical Christianity, and almost the entire Pentecostal movement. Someone once said all roads lead to Rome, and in the case of the pre-trib rapture doctrines that remains accurate."

If you are a pre-trib believer that got taught that doctrine in a youth group or general church setting I would print out that article on the last page and show it to that person that currently teaches it. Pentecostals that had bible seminary education are easy victims for Jesuits that are trained in stealth infiltration and counter reformation tactics..

Proof is available for the ones that look up the references mentioned, and I met at least one Assemblies of God minister that now refuses to teach that doctrine anymore, even though he is required to by church agreement. In this regard it's also helpful to have a look at the exact wording of the Jesuit declaration of formation where they state the exact reasons for their existence. This can be of great help to understand the OTHER Jesuit teachings that most Protestants accepted as their own and still think are of christian origin, but in reality are stategic counter-reformation moves to attempt bringing everyone back to the Mother church in the end. I had a Internet copy of that declaration once in my files, unfortunately I lost it, it was very educational, if someone still has a copy, please let us know.

1 Thessalonians 4:13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.
ch 5:1 But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you.
2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.
3 For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.
4 But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.
5 Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness.
6 Therefore let us not sleep, as do others; but let us watch and be sober.
7 For they that sleep sleep in the night; and they that be drunken are drunken in the night.
8 But let us, who are of the day, be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love; and for an helmet, the hope of salvation.
9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,
10 Who died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with him.
11 Wherefore comfort yourselves together, and edify one another, even as also ye do.

2 peter ch 3:But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.

Why do we need two Jesuit priests when we have the Word of God to show us the way of Christ bringing His Church the Body of Christ to the Father's House for the wedding supper of the Lamb before the abomination of desolation is sitting on the throne the counterfeit before the Real throne of David on this earth with Jesus Christ setting on it with all the Father's offspring who will reign with Jesus for 1000 years, the birthed ones with Christ in them. The rapture having already taken place along with the marriage supper. Then sometime around the mid trib, God will pour out the bowls and the Angles do their work preparing for the great white throne judgment.

All the saints, offspring and son's and daughter's of God will judge the nations without satan and his authority left on this earth. No more lies or deception just the truth flowing from the New Jerusalem that the Nations must take part in these flowing waters out of the throne of God, and are those that came to the truth in the tribulation and will come to the truth in our reign with Christ. They must have their garments washed in the Blood of the Lamb as all of God's offspring already have, yeh even the son's of God by the birthing of The incorruptible Seed of the Father in them; "Christ in you the hope of Glory."

What is the greatest gift in God's Plan for eternity? The birthing of His own Son in the believer, making us sons, and heirs with Jesus Christ to the Father's Kingdom. Where we are already seated spiritually and will be seated in soul and body like the body of Jesus in the twinkling of an eye at the catching away of the Body of Christ and taking us home to the Father's House, where we will live forever and learn God and Christ forever by the Holy Spirit still teaching us for ever.

What comfort In Christ: Phillip

Hi Phillip,

Do you believe that those clothed with white robes of Rev. ch 6 and 7 are ones whom missed the rapture ?

I personally do not see it.

Revelation 6:11
And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.

Revelation 7:9
After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;

Revelation 7:13
And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they?

Revelation 7:14
And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

The comfort is not that we will not have tribulation, the comfort is that if we are faithful unto death, we will be given a crown of life

Another related refresher: There are no 2 second comings in the Bible, that is fiction. That is also not church history.

My first post already goes into all you need to solve it, Because Resurrection and Rapture are together one single simultaneous event we can exactly pinpoint the timing in scripture.

Apply simple logic of 2 connected components that have other events accompanying them that clearly tell us when they happen in the timeline and understand there is no resurrection before the first resurrection, so there is also no rapture before the first resurrection. When the Bible says: "THIS is the first resurrection" - It means exactly that, you cannot ask for more proof without drifting off into the absurd. And only the first resurrection is in any way connected with a rapture. They happen both after the mark.

Then compare that with what Jesus said, and that's the end of it. It's so simple and clear. Test it, it works. It's real and not fiction.

Not good with simple logic ? Give these verses to an forensic analyst in your local sheriff office that knows how to find always "who dunnit" simply based on the provided evidence. Then you don't have to read any longer into the text what it does not support.

The first One to be resurrected and raptured, is Jesus Christ. I will follow Him.

In Christ: Phillip

Quote: """Do you believe that those clothed with white robes of Rev. ch 6 and 7 are ones whom missed the rapture?"""

Yes, they came out of the "great tribulation".

The ones raptured are already with Christ and are already washed in the blood of the Lamb. "Christ in you the hope of glory", already the second coming of Christ in me, now. Is He come in you?

There will be a second coming for the bride, and a second coming for the rest of the world, He setting on the throne of David.

In Christ: Phillip

Little question about how the pre-tribulation rapture might have a few guidelines.

If one is a Christian, and the rapture occurs, but one owes money to a non Christian, wouldn't it be a smudge on God's credibility, and no less his credit rating, to take that Christian before his bills are paid?

Some contend that Christians living on credit beyond their means have already accepted the mark of the beast.

Might make the who's who on rapture day very interesting. Christians carrying thirty grand in credit card debt for their lattes, electronic toys, boats and motorhomes might hear something like:

"Sure, you can come. Just take care of your debt/ My reputation and you are in. You have 42 months..."

PP asked Quote: """Do you believe that those clothed with white robes of Rev. ch 6 and 7 are ones whom missed the rapture?"""

Christinyou responded ://Yes, they came out of the "great tribulation".//

I do not see it.

1 Thessalonians 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

Philip do you believe that this is speaking of a second coming for the bride, or a second coming for the rest of the world ?

///There are no 2 second comings in the Bible, that is fiction. That is also not church history. ///

I agree.

I do not see in the Scriptures 2 second comings either,

The Scripture seems to me to teach clearly that the wheat and tares will grow together untill the time of harvest, at harvest the tares will be bundled to burn and the Wheat will than be gathered into the barn,

Their does not seem to be a replanting of the Wheat, nor a few immature wheat LEFT BEHIND to than be harvested with the tares.

Mark 13:24 But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, And the stars of heaven shall fall, and the powers that are in heaven shall be shaken. And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory. And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.

Simple questions:

a) what are the signs to watch for?

b) when are those days?

c) who is gathered together?

d) who are HIS ELECT?

e) Can you identify with His elect?

Revelation 20:6  Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

The second mention of that phrase "first resurrection" gives also the information of the new millennium starting then, related with that event, it will last for a thousand years and indicates what the elect are called to be. It's not called "a" resurrection and "a" or "some" elect but THE first resurrection and THE elect, definitive articles, definitive meanings, that's the part of sound doctrine that distinguishes itself from fables by being precise and definitive.

Wow,2 scriptures and you are convinced it is time to ridicule those that hold to scriptures teaching of the pre tribulation rapture.

Pretrib is easy to defend.

I am at liberty to test,beleive and reconcile the weight of scripture while the adherents of post trib research a little girls dream and some theologian nobody heard of,much less is influenced by.

In order for post trib to be taken seriously,try to use ONLY scripture.

Your first scripture is the bedrock of the second coming.
We both agree Jesus comes back after the tribulation.
It amazes me that post trib has never noticed he returns with his bride,and that bride has become the wife.
Scripture clearly,clearly rules out the rapture of the "dead and those alive" at the end of the tribulation.

A girls dream and the erroneous "first belief trumps" is all post trib doctrine.No pretrib uses such silliness.

Under the "first is law" concept,Peter would have us all circumcised to enter God's family.
Thank God erroneous first was corrected.

BTW,you obviously never read the Mcdonald dream.She believed the church must go through the trib for "Purifying"
She was post trib.

Quote a servant "Mark 13:24 But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, And the stars of heaven shall fall, and the powers that are in heaven shall be shaken. And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory. And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.

Simple questions:

a) what are the signs to watch for?

b) when are those days?

c) who is gathered together?

d) who are HIS ELECT?

e) Can you identify with His elect?"

OK,now lets dig into the scripture.

Matthew 24:31
And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Lets see....AFTER the tribulation he gathers the elect.

FROM.....the 4 winds.

From one end of HEAVEN to the other.

Now connect ...as you say.....the 2 together.

Yes he does return at the end of the trib after he gathers his bride IN HEAVEN. Then THEY return with him.

You cannot understand the entirety of scripture by leaving out what contradicts your position.

HI ,psalm1

psalm1 wrote ///Pretrib is easy to defend.
I am at liberty to test,beleive and reconcile the weight of scripture while the adherents of post trib research a little girls dream and some theologian nobody heard of,much less is influenced by.///

As far as I am aware we have not been trying to make a case using Mcdonald.

As far as John Darby he is very famous, and is the developer of systematic dispensational premillennialism.

psalm1 wrote : ///'I am at liberty to test,beleive and reconcile the weight of scripture while the adherents of post....' 'In order for post trib to be taken seriously,try to use ONLY scripture'///

Please give the Scriptures that you feel prove the pretrib view ?

Quote by proudpappa "Hi Phillip,

Do you believe that those clothed with white robes of Rev. ch 6 and 7 are ones whom missed the rapture ?

I personally do not see it.

Revelation 6:11
And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.

Revelation 7:9
After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;

Revelation 7:13
And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they?

Revelation 7:14
And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

The comfort is not that we will not have tribulation, the comfort is that if we are faithful unto death, we will be given a crown of life

Notice they are in heaven,but kept seperate,under the altar.

Later,they are joined by the rest that are killed during the trib period.

It is obvious they were allowed out AFTER their number was fulfilled.
IOW,the number is fulfilled during the trib period.All marters are in heaven,none on earth DURING the trib period.

Note the clear indication that Anticrist KILLS ALL THE SAINTS
Rev 13;7 And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.

8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

Do you see that? No more psalm 91.In fact it says POWER WAS GIVEN UNTO HIM TO OVERCOME THEM.

He kills all the saints,and that scripture you quoted verify s their number is fulfilled during the tribulation period.

There are no saints on the earth at the end of the trib period.The 144k,the two witnesses,the church,the dead in christ,and all the ones left behind to face antichrist are ALL in heaven before the end of the trib period.

Proudpappa;"Please give the Scriptures that you feel prove the pretrib view ?"

In the past,I like those that hold the posttrib view,looked at end times through the prism of the "trib/rapture/secondcoming" prism.

For about the last 2 years,I have looked at from heaven.

"The groom gathering his bride"

Once this window has opened to you,you will never see it the same way again.
This is truly the core of the matter.

Quote amrkelly "

Why not actually address the scriptures and not always rely on every whim of controversy to make you case. Why don't you actually answer the legitimate claims being made for a mid term rapture before the last 42 months on the Great Tribulation? That would be helpful. Those who have a belief in a pre tribulation rapture do not all believe in a pre seven year rapture. Some believe in a pre Great Tribulation Rapture. It is not as simple as you make it appear to be. Why not actually address the things which brethren hold to be truths and stop being divisive. Even pre tribulation brethren recognise the historical content of this post of yours. What do you yourself say to the scriptures? That would be a better measure of concern. Anyone can just cut and past other peoples articles. As you have the concern and have made it so personal that others are become fools by not understanding your concerns then where is your concern for those fools?

Margaret MacDonald is not the mother of the pre-tribulation rapture

by Todd Strandberg

I have visited just about every anti-rapture web site on the internet. One common point used on nearly every one of these sites to oppose the pretribulation doctrine is the claim that the rapture theory was started by a Scottish girl named Margaret MacDonald. Many critics of the rapture declare that MacDonald received her vision from demonic origins, and that she then passed on the message of that vision to infect the Church. Being a staunch pretribulationist, I'm at a loss to explain the connection between Margaret MacDonald and my beliefs in the rapture. I cannot recall ever hearing pre-trib prophetic speakers say, "I believe in the rapture because Margaret MacDonald told me so."

After reading and listening to a number of web sites, books, and radio programs that promote the idea that Margaret MacDonald started pretribulationism, I decided to look into the matter.

To be certain that I made no oversight, I searched through my library of prophecy books for references citing Margaret MacDonald as the founder of the rapture teaching. My hunt turned out to be in vain. It was like looking for the cartoon character "Where's Waldo." Only in this case, no Waldo was to be found.

If MacDonald was the founder of the pretribulation rapture, as most anti-rapture proponents say, then someone needs to explain why rapturists have failed to give her credit. You would expect to find dozens of books that expound upon her every word. From reading the writings of anti-rapture authors, one would think we pre-tribbers would be reverencing MacDonald as Catholics do Mary. But clearly we don't. Pre-tribbers don't go around reciting, "Hail Margaret full of grace, blessed art thou among visionaries, pray for us sinners at the time of the rapture." If MacDonald were the founder of the doctrine of rapture, the lack of recognition we rapture believers pay her would be comparable to the modern Mormon church failing to recognize Joseph Smith as its founder or to the Jehovah's witnesses neglecting to identify Charles Russell as that group's originator. Poor Margaret MacDonald, she gets all of the blame, but none of the credit.

After having examined the claims of those critical of the rapture, I have found holes large enough to drive a dump truck through in their so-called evidence:

The first problem with the MacDonald origin is the fact that she wasn't the one who widely taught the doctrine of the pre-trib rapture. A man named John Darby is believed by many to have sparked modern interest in the rapture. The question here is how Darby came to hear of MacDonald's vision. Proponents like Dave MacPherson and John L. Bray have never been able to prove that Darby had ever heard of MacDonald or her vision.

Darby himself claims the revelation of the rapture came to him when he realized the distinction between Israel and the church.

Darby reported that he discovered the rapture teaching in 1827, three years before MacDonald had her vision.

When one closely examines MacDonald's vision, it becomes clear that her vision could not have been a pretribulational one. MacDonald looked for a "fiery trial which is to try us," and she foresaw the Church being purged by the Antichrist. Any pretribulation rapturist can tell you the Church will be removed before the advent of the Antichrist. John Bray, an anti-rapturist, said himself that Margaret MacDonald was teaching a single coming of our Lord Jesus. This contradicts current rapture doctrine, which teaches a two-staged event - first, Christ coming for His Church and second, seven years later His return to earth. With so many contradictions between MacDonald's vision and today's pretribulationism, it is difficult to see any linkage.

By far the biggest mistake post-tribulationists have made attacking the rapture is claiming that the pretribulation rapture wasn't taught before 1830. In fact, John L. Bray, a Southern Baptist evangelist, offered $500 to anyone who could prove that someone taught the rapture doctrine prior to MacDonald's 1830 vision. Bray was first proven wrong when he wrote in a newsletter, "Then my own research indicated that it was Emmanuel Lacunza, a Jesuit Catholic priest, who in the 1812 book The Coming of Messiah in Glory and Majesty, first taught this theory." Bray stuck his neck out again when he made another $500 offer to anyone who could provide a documented statement earlier than Lacunza's 1812 writings. Apparently he had to cough up the 500 bucks. I quote him again: "I offered $500 to anyone who would give a documented statement earlier than Lacunza's time which taught a two-stage coming of Christ separated by a stated period of time." No one claimed that offer until someone found writings that forced Bray to write the following: "Now I have the Photostat copies of a book published in Philadelphia, Pennsylvania, in 1788 but written in 1742-1744 in England, which taught the pretribulation rapture before Lacunza." Lately, a number of other sources have been located that teach the pretribulation rapture--some written as early as the second century. Where does this leave Margaret MacDonald?

In my life here on earth, I've made a number of observations that I regard as undeniable truths. One of these is the fact that the truth will suffer attacks with no one defending it, while a lie will be allowed to proliferate with no one challenging it. This seems to have taken place in the case of the rapture. For years on end, anti-rapturists have been allowed to attack pretribulationism freely. One assailant called the rapture the mark of the beast while another remarked that when Jesus returns at the battle of Armageddon, He will fight against those who believe in the rapture. The people who should have been contending for the rapture, for the most part, just said, "That may be your opinion."

Finally, it appears that those who hold to a pretribulation rapture are beginning to counter the ridiculous charges. A number of books have been published that cite several pre-MacDonald sources describing a raptured Church. Author Grant Jeffrey deserves a good deal of praise for his work in discovering many of these sources.

As far as being able to find the pretribulation rapture in the Bible, we don't need to be rocket scientists to discover it. For me, locating the rapture doctrine in the Bible was as simple as finding evidence that Jesus Christ is Messiah.

The evidence that Christians believed in the rapture long before MacDonald does not seem to have sunk into the minds of those opposed to the rapture. They still teach that she is the founder of pretribulationism. When someone is presented with overwhelming proof that he or she is wrong and refuses to accept that truth, then we certainly may conclude that he or she is in spiritual darkness.

I would like to conclude by saying that no evidence whatsoever points to MacDonald as the source of pretribulationism. Every major prophetic author alive today claims the Word of God as the foundation for belief in the rapture. Both Jesus Christ and the Apostle Paul made statements that clearly establish the rapture doctrine. Jesus said, in Matthew 25:13, "Watch therefore, for ye know neither the day nor the hour wherein the Son of man cometh." Paul affirmed in 1 Thessalonians 4:16-18: "For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive [and] remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. Wherefore comfort one another with these words."

A thousand amens to this post brother!!!

Quote a-servant ""And they will say: 'This can not be the mark, Jesus has not came back yet."

True this. And I have another one of that kind:

And they will say the lawless one has not been revealed yet.

What they mean is, not revealed to them. Don't fall for this mis-judgment of what they perceive as reality, he has been revealed.

"Know this for certainty, when you can not buy nor sell without it, and their is no religious exemption offered, It is the mark!"

You're on the spot with that last statement, never go into any discussion with anyone that argues over such things as "what does buy or sell mean in spirtual terms" Simply say thank you and leave that discussion, these people usually are able to look at a blue wall paint and inject the idea that the spritual essence of that colour is without a doubt green and not blue.

One thing we cannot overlook in that discussion, and that is, there is a form of delusion that isn't cureable, because when God sends it, it will stick without wearing off:"

Wow,are you actually serious? you really think that christians will not know that worshiping is required by this devil man?

Are you aware that the antichrist Kills those that do not accept the mark?

You really think that by you getting people to agree with you,that they will AUTOMATICALLY accept martyrdom?

I do not think you have thought this through.

First off,if there is a pretrib rapture,you are basically rejecting the groom's invite.

Note that the 10 virgins did believe he was coming without a necessary first event.

So by you "preparing" thinking others are so decieved.it is that doctrine that adds to those left behind.

There is really no such of a thing that post trib imagines.
It is so simple. Antichrist has the whole world worshiping him.They all have the mark.All the ones refusing are killed.
That is all there is to it.

Some weak christians will refuse the mark,and some strong ones will.But both strong and weak(some of them) will take the mark,because to die,takes a brave heart,and a strong spirit.
The ones that take the mark will say "Man I did the right thing.Just look at those fools that refused the mark and were killed"

Wow 6 posts in a row like a a blizz tornado. There should be something like a protection from these kind of thread attacks by driverby snipers. One, just one clear scripture with actual content and a scriptural message that is related to this thread would be preferred and appreciated. This is a discussion forum, and the scriptures section of that, and not a place to off-load bulk postings of opinions in order to attack actual scripture.

Regarding my last post that must somehow have triggered a reaction, I have to assume you do not identify with His elect that are gathered after the tribulation because your view is from heaven already as you say. If that would be the case, you would have a ear to hear Jesus's message for His elect, that although as you say have not the higher view from heaven you claim for yourself, are still adressed by Him as His elect. His elect means election by Jesus, not self-elected. Is it possible to get back to that scripture in Matthew or Mark and verify that we are talking to someone that is not blinded by rage, but can understand and acknowledge scripture?

There is not too much of my own writing here, just letting the scripture speak for themselves while giving bullet points…

Quote by pslam1: Note the clear indication that Anticrist KILLS ALL THE SAINTS
Rev 13;7 And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.

8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

Do you see that? No more psalm 91.In fact it says POWER WAS GIVEN UNTO HIM TO OVERCOME THEM.

But yet we see in Revelation 15:2 And I saw as it were a sea of glass mingled with fire: and them that had gotten the victory over the beast, and over his image, and over his mark, and over the number of his name, stand on the sea of glass, having the harps of God.

Do they get the victory through death? Lets see

Lets back up a bit here.

Rev 14: 9-11 And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand, The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb: And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.

Here we see a promise of judgment poured out on those who received the mark of the beast.

Rev 14: 12-13 Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus. And I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Write, Blessed are the dead which die in the Lord from henceforth: Yea, saith the Spirit, that they may rest from their labours; and their works do follow them.

This shows very clearly that there will be Saints on the earth at that time because of this statement ‘Blessed are the dead which die in the Lord from henceforth’ so from that time your blessed if you die in the Lord from that time…

Christ come to Harvest the Earth

Rev 14: 14-20 And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle. And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to him that sat on the cloud, Thrust in thy sickle, and reap: for the time is come for thee to reap; for the harvest of the earth is ripe. And he that sat on the cloud thrust in his sickle on the earth; and the earth was reaped And another angel came out of the temple which is in heaven, he also having a sharp sickle And another angel came out from the altar, which had power over fire; and cried with a loud cry to him that had the sharp sickle, saying, Thrust in thy sharp sickle, and gather the clusters of the vine of the earth; for her grapes are fully ripe. And the angel thrust in his sickle into the earth, and gathered the vine of the earth, and cast it into the great winepress of the wrath of God. And the winepress was trodden without the city, and blood came out of the winepress, even unto the horse bridles, by the space of a thousand and six hundred furlongs.

Now the Harvest is of the Tare and the Wheat but first it the Tares who suffer the wrath of God ‘And the angel thrust in his sickle into the earth, and gathered the vine of the earth, and cast it into the great winepress of the wrath of God’

This ties in with what Jesus taught…

Matthew 13:30 Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.

Now if Christ says ‘Let both grow together until the harvest’ how does that say that all the Saints are dead?

The Wheat will be gathered at that time but will go into the barn. (The rapture)

It is then we get the vision of them that had gotten the victory over the beast, and over his image, and over his mark, and over the number of his name, stand on the sea of glass, having the harps of God.

Very well said, murrcolr

That would seem to be consistant with Jesus saying :

Mark 13:19 For in those days shall be affliction, such as was not from the beginning of the creation which God created unto this time, neither shall be.
20 And except that the Lord had shortened those days, no flesh should be saved: but for the elect's sake, whom he hath chosen, he hath shortened the days

and v 26 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory.
27 And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.

Quote murccoir "This shows very clearly that there will be Saints on the earth at that time because of this statement ‘Blessed are the dead which die in the Lord from henceforth’ so from that time your blessed if you die in the Lord from that time…"

Shows clearly that those facing the antichrist are murdered for not taking the mark.

Yes the ones left behind are murdered,end up in heaven with the rest,and then return with Jesus on white horses.

I suppose we agree.

Quote by Murrcoir "Rev 14: 14-20 And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle. And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to him that sat on the cloud, Thrust in thy sickle, and reap: for the time is come for thee to reap; for the harvest of the earth is ripe. And he that sat on the cloud thrust in his sickle on the earth; and the earth was reaped And another angel came out of the temple which is in heaven, he also having a sharp sickle And another angel came out from the altar, which had power over fire; and cried with a loud cry to him that had the sharp sickle, saying, Thrust in thy sharp sickle, and gather the clusters of the vine of the earth; for her grapes are fully ripe. And the angel thrust in his sickle into the earth, and gathered the vine of the earth, and cast it into the great winepress of the wrath of God. And the winepress was trodden without the city, and blood came out of the winepress, even unto the horse bridles, by the space of a thousand and six hundred furlongs.

Now the Harvest is of the Tare and the Wheat but first it the Tares who suffer the wrath of God ‘And the angel thrust in his sickle into the earth, and gathered the vine of the earth, and cast it into the great winepress of the wrath of God’

This ties in with what Jesus taught…"

Go back,read it again and note THE 2 HARVESTS.

The first is Jesus.

The second it says "another angel"

Quote by a-servant "Wow 6 posts in a row like a a blizz tornado. There should be something like a protection from these kind of thread attacks by driverby snipers. One, just one clear scripture with actual content and a scriptural message that is related to this thread would be preferred and appreciated. This is a discussion forum, and the scriptures section of that, and not a place to off-load bulk postings of opinions in order to attack actual scripture.

Regarding my last post that must somehow have triggered a reaction, I have to assume you do not identify with His elect that are gathered after the tribulation because your view is from heaven already as you say. If that would be the case, you would have a ear to hear Jesus's message for His elect, that although as you say have not the higher view from heaven you claim for yourself, are still adressed by Him as His elect. His elect means election by Jesus, not self-elected. Is it possible to get back to that scripture in Matthew or Mark and verify that we are talking to someone that is not blinded by rage, but can understand and acknowledge scripture?"

never mind all the filler,make your case so I can change my view.

Do not ascribe to me what you erroneously suppose about me personally.Just make your case as i have clearly done.

You have only 2 scriptures? Is that what you are saying?

Quote a-servant "My first post already goes into all you need to solve it, Because Resurrection and Rapture are together one single simultaneous event we can exactly pinpoint the timing in scripture. "

This is easily challenged and refuted.(I know anyone that challenges you is angry and deluded)

I can count at least 5 raptures in the bible just off the top of my head.

by Sidewalk on 2013/7/4 16:30:38

Little question about how the pre-tribulation rapture might have a few guidelines.

If one is a Christian, and the rapture occurs, but one owes money to a non Christian, wouldn't it be a smudge on God's credibility, and no less his credit rating, to take that Christian before his bills are paid?

Some contend that Christians living on credit beyond their means have already accepted the mark of the beast.

Might make the who's who on rapture day very interesting. Christians carrying thirty grand in credit card debt for their lattes, electronic toys, boats and motorhomes might hear something like:

"Sure, you can come. Just take care of your debt/ My reputation and you are in. You have 42 months..."

I personally know 2 people that purposely ran up their credit card and then defaulted and laughed about it. Both were unsaved.

Are you aware of God's credit plan? The 50 year jubilee?

Gives one an insight on how God views the creditors and the trap of credit.It is heavens view to mans folly.

Jesus "John 14:2
In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.
3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also."

How would that be possible in a post trib scenario?
Under that doctrine the saints never,ever see heaven.

how will the marriage in heaven be consummated?

We have the answer in the last supper.

Quote by Pslam1 : Go back,read it again and note THE 2 HARVESTS.

The first is Jesus.

The second it says "another angel"

Yes the Tares and Wheat what does the parable of weeds say?

'I will say to the reapers' more than one reaper...

---

Quote: Shows clearly that those facing the antichrist are murdered for not taking the mark.

It shows some will be murdered

Quote: Yes the ones left behind are murdered,end up in heaven with the rest,and then return with Jesus on white horses.

1 Thessalonians 4:16-17 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

Sorry 'O' the dead in Christ shall rise first, Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds.

Edit to add and change..

Quote: """I can count at least 5 raptures in the bible just off the top of my head."""

What are these 5?

In Christ: Phillip

Hi psalm1

psalm1 wrote //////Jesus "John 14:2
In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.
3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also."

How would that be possible in a post trib scenario?
Under that doctrine the saints never,ever see heaven.//////

Whom was Jesus speaking to in John 14:2 ?

He was speaking to the disciples.

All of the disciples died.

Is 1 Thessalonians 4:16 : For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

speaking of the rapture, or the end of the world?

Is the 'day of the Lord' : speaking of the rapture, or the end of the world?

edit: for clarity

In conjuction with sidewalk's reply - Little question about how the pre-tribulation rapture might have a few guidelines..

Quote: "Some contend that Christians living on credit beyond their means have already accepted the mark of the beast"

Quote: "Might make the who's who on rapture day very interesting. Christians carrying thirty grand in credit card debt for their lattes, electronic toys, boats and motorhomes might hear something like"

In an Alexandrian world, as in the second coming based on the premillennial kingdom of the pretrib and posttrib interpretation..

I. Proverbs 15:3 - The eyes of the Lord are in every place, Keeping watch on the evil and the good.

II. Proverbs 20:17- Bread gained by deceit is sweet to a man, But afterward his mouth will be filled with gravel.

III. Proverbs 20:18 - Plans are established by counsel; But wise counsel wage war.

IV. Proverbs 20:24 - A man's steps are of the Lord; How then can a man understand his own way?

GOD MAKES HIMSELF KNOWN

Then the Lord said to Moses, "Now you will see what I will do to Pharaoh: Because of my mighty hand he will let them go; because of my mighty hand he will drive them out of his country."

God also said to Moses, "I am the Lord. I appeared to Abraham, to Isaac and to Jacob as God Almighty, but by my name the LORD I did not make myself known to them. I also established my covenant with them to give them the land of Canaan, where they lived as aliens. Moreover, I have heard the groanings of the Israelites, whom the Egyptians are enslaving, and I have remembered my covenant.

NOW Jacob went out from Beersheba and went toward Haran (the area in northern mesopotamia- Padan Aram). 11 So he came to a certain place and stayed there all night, because the sun had set. And he took one of the stones of that place and put it at his head, and he lay down in that place to sleep. 12 Then he dreamed, and behold, a ladder was set up on the earth, and its top reached to heaven; and there the angels of God were ascending and descending on it. 13 And behold, the Lord stood above it and said: "I am the Lord God of Abraham your father and the God of Isaac: the land on which you lie I will give to you and your descendents. 14 Also your descendants shall be as the dust of the earth; you shall spread abroad to the west and the east, to the north and the south; and in you in your seed all the families of the earth shall be blessed. Genesis 28: 11 - 14

"Behold, I am with you and will keep you wherever you go, and will bring you back to this land; for I will not leave you until I have done what I have spoken to you"

Then Jacob awoke from his sleep and said, "Surely the Lord is in this place, and I did not know it."

And he was afraid and said, "How awesome is this place! This is none other than the house of God, and his is the gate of heaven!"

Then Jacob rose early in the morning, and took the stone that he had put at his head, set it up as a pillar, and poured oil on top of it.

And he called the name of that place Bethel...

Then Jacob made a vow, saying, "If God will be with me, and keep me in this way that I am going, and give me bread to eat and clothing to put on, "so that I come back to my father's house in peace, then the Lord shall be my God. "And this stone which I have set as a pillar shall be God's house, and of all that You give me I will surely give a tenth to You." ' "

THE GOD WHO HEARS THE HEARTS OF MEN

God promised Jacob at Bethel NOT El Bethel but Bethel that the land would be his and his descendants.. Jacob held deep in his heart and mind the promises of God and the Blessing of his Father as he walked in obedience in finding a wife and wives he found but there was one whom he loved, and would love till death do them part in there hearts. Jacobs family grew and he was blessed with sons -- twelve sons:

1. Reuben: see, a son

2. Simeon: hearing

3. Levi: joined, attached

4. Judah: praise

5. Dan: judging

6. Naphtali: wrestling

7. Gad: a troop

8. Asher: happy

9. Issachar: hire

10. Zebulum: dwelling

11. Joseph: he shall add

12. Benjamin: son of my right hand

Reuben: his first born commended as "My might, the first sign of my strength, excellence in honor and power"... cut short by his adultery, destined to receive a double inheritance and leadership, however cut short, no evidence found that he received his inheritance.

Simeon and Levi: characterized as being violent with the sword and guilty of cruelty and anger. Grouped together and destined to be scattered in the land according to there prophecy.

Judah: characterized strong like a lion, triumphant over his enemies - receiving a significant prophecy that the scepter, referring to the future Messiah would come from the tribe of Judah. His father predicting that the scepter would not depart from Judah, nor the ruler's staff from between his feet, until He comes to whom it belongs and the obedience of the nations is His, meaning Christ coming from the family of David.

Dan: characterized like one that would provide justice for his people, a serpent by the roadside, a viper along the path, one who bites the horse's heel and causes the rider to tumble backwards. Dan who's name means judge, implying one who is fair and equal in justice.

Naphtal: characterized as a doe set free that bears beautiful fawns.

Gad: characterized, as one who would be attacked by a band of raiders, but he will attack them at their heels. Gad who's name means attack and knows how to counterattack.

Asher: characterized as a provider of food, rich and fit for a king.

Zebulum: characterized and destined according to prediction by Jacob, that he will live by the seashore, his border will extend toward Sidon.

Issachar: characterized a rawboned donkey lying between two saddlebags.

Joseph: characterized the fruitful vine, facing adversities but remaining faithful, strong and able to defend himself against all attacks because he was under the blessings of God.

Benjamin: characterized as a ravenous wolf, a warrior devouring the prey in the morning and dividing it's plunder in the evening.

Each given the blessing appropriate to him.

Is the pretrib and posttrib in conjuction with the interpretation of the rapture?

Quote proudpappa "Whom was Jesus speaking to in John 14:2 ?

He was speaking to the disciples.

All of the disciples died. "

No they haven't I am still alive.

Seriously? 80% of the gospels are irrelevant to modern disciples of Jesus because you are so anxious to disprove the pretrib rapture????

Quote christinyou "What are these 5?"

Enoch
Elijah
Jesus
Those of 1 thess 4
The 2 witnesses.

Bonus.....The 144k (But we do not really know for sure)

Quote: psalm 1: """Quote christinyou "What are these 5?"

Enoch
Elijah
Jesus
Those of 1 thess 4
The 2 witnesses.

Bonus.....The 144k (But we do not really know for sure)"""

Agreed, Thank you

Question; would you consider those clothed in white robes as another of the raptures? Revelation 7:14 And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

In Christ: Phillip

Hi psalm1

psalm1 wrote /////No they haven't I am still alive.
Seriously? 80% of the gospels are irrelevant to modern disciples of Jesus because you are so anxious to disprove the pretrib rapture????////

The context of John ch 14 v 2-3 is of a conversation that Jesus specifically had with the 12!

He specifically told the 12 : "In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also."

This verse is not at all "irrelevant to modern disciples of Jesus" but to understand it's meaning we need to look at its context.

I am not at all convinced that these verses in light of their context, allude to a pretrib rapture as what you are insisting they are.

Indeed they are applicable for us today, but not only that, they also where applicable for Peter, Thomas, Philip and the others of whom it was specifically spoken to.

I am not anxious to disprove a pre trib rapture, I just do not see it in Scripture, and nothing that you have written nor anyone else has written thus far has convinced me otherwise.

If my view is wrong conserning a pretrib rapture, than that is OK.
But if I am right, than we have an unprepared church for what is fixing to take place.

Is 1 Thessalonians 4:16 : For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

speaking of the rapture, or the end of the world?

Is the 'day of the Lord' : speaking of the rapture, or the end of the world?

Quote : "If my view is wrong conserning a pretrib rapture, than that is OK. But if I am right, than we have an unprepared church for what is fixing to take place."

Not just unprepared, some denominations that made pretrib teaching a cornerstone of their hope will not have any credibility left and will be totally abandoned. They will cease to exist. All of Christianity will suffer because we will get lumped together by the world as a group that was teaching lies. We know that divorce rates among unbelievers are lower than among Christians so that tells us who has the higher standards currently.

While the economical derivatives crash that is planned since years happening at around that same time or earlier will take out all prosperity churches, that have the same future because these members are there only for one purpose, to get showered in blessings of prosperity. Take that out, everything will implode once the driving motor will be taken out.

"if my view is wrong conserning a pretrib rapture, than that is OK" - Well, who would'.t want to believe a pretrib rapture?

They idea to say otherwise goes so much against logic and the flesh it is most irrational to a point, where our faith is truly tested. We could compare it to Abraham, that hearing what he should do with his son could have rationalized what God said and responded with "HOW absurd!"

Who would'nt want to believe that they are called to something that is better than what Jesus offered for His elect?

And who is so good at seduction that offers us this question: "Yes, but has Jesus actually said that?" "He might maybe have said it, but just once, so he didn't actually mean it, he meant the left-behind ones, let me show you the secret way for the true elect". He always had a way to make saints look like second class believers, his expertise to divide and conquer and to to foster our natural vanity and makes us feel so special to separate us by our own will from Jesus' elect.

Without Jesus saying what he said, and Paul confirming it by giving us timing markers, and Jesus in Revelation confirming it yet again to John we would have nothing to say about that and would be left with Tim LaHaye's twelve "Left Behind" books that made millions by basically saying 2 things 1) the elect are in fact the left-behind, and 2) you still can be saved after taking the mark of the beast.

"...I think about 90% of believers, born again believers, and perahps most of you,,, believe that Jesus Christ will come 7 years before,,,,,or as soon as the tribulation starts and secretly rapture the church.
I believed it too,,, as a young Christian,,. because I was taught that.
But as I studied the Scriptures carefully, honestly. I discovered it's not true.
I searched the Scriptures, the New Testament,, I could not find one verse. I studied it for 50 years,,, not one verse that taught that.
I discovered that it was a teaching of man,,that arose in England about 150 years ago,,.
No buddy believes it in the persecuted countries like China,,, or in the old communist countries,, nobody would believe it.
It arose in countries that never experienced persecution for centuries. And it is a very comfortable doctrine...." - Zac Poonen

There are clear indicative verses regarding the timing of the rapture, I would call them Key-verses in contrast to secondary verses that not directly mention either the rapture or the resurrection of the dead and thefore have less value than key-verses, and another one of these primary key verses is:

1 Corinthians 15:52  In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

Let's check all trumpets in scripture and find the last trump:

Revelation 8:13  And I beheld, and heard an angel flying through the midst of heaven, saying with a loud voice, Woe, woe, woe, to the inhabiters of the earth by reason of the other voices of the trumpet of the three angels, which are yet to sound!

At this stage 3 more angels are going to sound a trumpet. Let's see what happens along the way:

Revelation 9:1  And the fifth angel sounded, and I saw a star fall from heaven unto the earth: and to him was given the key of the bottomless pit. And he opened the bottomless pit; and there arose a smoke out of the pit, as the smoke of a great furnace; and the sun and the air were darkened by reason of the smoke of the pit.

remember the darkened sun and star falling from the sky in another reference? Also mentioned in Matthew 24:29

Revelation 9:13  And the sixth angel sounded, and I heard a voice from the four horns of the golden altar which is before God, Saying to the sixth angel which had the trumpet, Loose the four angels which are bound in the great river Euphrates. And the four angels were loosed, which were prepared for an hour, and a day, and a month, and a year, for to slay the third part of men.

the third part of men is more than 2000 million people currently, so a lot of people will "disappear" at that point in time, however not in the sense the majority of expectant pretribers would like to see it.

The angel that follows the sixth angel is in: Revelation 11:1  And there was given me a reed like unto a rod: and the angel stood, saying, Rise, and measure the temple of God, and the altar, and them that worship therein. But the court which is without the temple leave out, and measure it not; for it is given unto the Gentiles: and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty and two months.

In Rev 8:13 we learn that 3 more angels are yet to sound, 2 angels then follow with direct reference to sounding a trumpet, yet the last ever mentioned trumpet is in Rev 9.13 already. So I leave it up to you when you want to put the "Last Trump" referred to in 1 Corinthians 15:52

It is either the trump of Revelation 9:13, because it's the last one mentioned in all of the Bible. Or it is the one of the 7th angel that isnt explicitly mentioned to sound, yet we know it's got to be there because of the reference in Revelation 8:13 of "3 more are to sound" where the third of that would belong to the 7th angel. Either way the "slaying of the third part of men" happens and in case this would include a vaporisation inside mushroom clouds it would put yet another angle on that teaching of the disappearance of people before the return of Jesus.

"But as I studied the Scriptures carefully, honestly. I discovered it's not true.
I searched the Scriptures, the New Testament,, I could not find one verse. I studied it for 50 years,,, not one verse that taught that. "

Totally false.
What a reckless statement.

Note;no scripture reference
Note;he bases his belief on some Christians in china.Not the bible
Note;Watch his videos on the subject.He edits out any scriptures referencing pretrib.

RE; "He specifically told the 12 : "In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also."

So when was the separate rapture of only the 12?
When did he come back to get them?

He ,Jesus,only has 12 mansions?

Do not be deceived by those teaching a doctrine that requires you to look through unscriptural bizarre prisms!

Quote;"But if I am right, than we have an unprepared church for what is fixing to take place. "

So you are justifying ignoring the "escape" scriptures,and the clear picture of the promise of the church doing business in heaven,and the fact that the marriage supper and the bride are already in heaven during the tribulation period?

Not to mention the white horses,and the crystal clear beautiful picture of the 10 virgins in Mat 25?
There are so many places where "escape" is the warning and the subject matter.I am at liberty to examine these scriptures,enjoy them and appreciate the Lord's desire to tell me to be ready,not for the devil man and his appearing,but the groom and his taking away his bride.

Post trib has recently gotten so bizarre in their "Anti rapture" rhetoric,it is as if you are forbidden to even glance at the WEIGHT of scripture I embrace and enjoy from the king,my bridegroom,Jesus.

It is not the job of the church to observe some martyr or christian in jail and then modify the scriptures to apologize for those verses that seem to add(if viewed from logic) to their suffering.

Jesus called Peter satan
The woman at the well a Dog
Under the logic method of mans values I would have to say any teaching from Jesus on love would be hypocritical.
See where the logic method leads?

I am sure you have allowed the bulk of scripture to override this erroneous "Jesus can't be loving" notion.

It is the same with the persecuted church.Logic is the low road method for getting the scriptures to reconcile seeming contradictions.

With the post trib obsession with persecuted saints forming one's biblical views,why would they think they have any firewall against deception?

The weight of scripture verses only 3 scriptures?
Seriously?

Well when we bring in the persecuted saints!......Seriously?

Last trump? Seriously?Have you looked at the last trump objectively?Think about it.You are desperate for some scriptures,not to form a post trib doctrine,but to muddy up the weight of scripture on the return of Jesus for his bride.

What in the world is going on here?????

Quote "Agreed, Thank you

Question; would you consider those clothed in white robes as another of the raptures? Revelation 7:14 And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

In Christ: Phillip"

Note;They had to wash their robes.Something was not right with them,but has been corrected.

They are obviously martyers. The martyred number has now been fulfilled.(Remember,they were not allowed out from under the altar before their number was fulfilled)

This is the fate of those left behind after the pretrib rapture.
Remember,antichrist is empowed to kill the saints.

He is deadly gifted to do just that.The word says that every single man woman and child receives the mark,and those without it are dead.

Without a doubt,a post trib rapture is not just unlikely,but completely impossible.

Quote by murrcoir "It shows some will be murdered"

Read it again...... (ALL are murdered)"7 And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.

8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world."

Do you see that you are implying some saints take the mark and are still go to go for the rapture?

Question for post trib.

Who is represented by the 5 foolish virgins?

Please keep it within the scriptures frame work.

They were left behind and were not allowed in the chamber of the groom.They were in a separate location.

They were saved

They did not keep their relationship "hot" with Jesus.

They did not think he was not coming.

Who are they?

Hi, psalm1

Zac Poonen said : "But as I studied the Scriptures carefully, honestly. I discovered it's not true.
I searched the Scriptures, the New Testament,, I could not find one verse. I studied it for 50 years,,, not one verse that taught that. "

psalm1 responded :////Totally false.
What a reckless statement.
Note;no scripture reference
Note;he bases his belief on some Christians in china.Not the bible
Note;Watch his videos on the subject.He edits out any scriptures referencing pretrib.////

Zac did not recklessly make the statement, but instead he sincerely came to that conclusion from 50 years of studying the Scriptures.

The quote is from "Some Things I Have Learnt In 50 Years" Part 4 by Zac Poonen:
https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/myvideo/photo.php?lid=2034

psalm1 wrote: /////Question for post trib.
Who is represented by the 5 foolish virgins?
Please keep it within the scriptures frame work.
They were left behind and were not allowed in the chamber of the groom.They were in a separate location.
They were saved
They did not keep their relationship "hot" with Jesus.
They did not think he was not coming.
Who are they?/////

The Scripture says of the 5 foolish virgins ch 25 v 12

"But he answered and said, Verily I say unto you, I know you not."

The statement:, "I know you not" would appear to me, that they where not saved.

Edit add, Who do you believe the 5 foolish virgins are ?

Quote: 8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world."

No read it plainly all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life.

What about those who names are written in the book of life they won't take the name..

Again Rev 15:2 And I saw something like a sea of glass mingled with fire, and those who have the victory over the beast, over his image and over his mark[a] and over the number of his name, standing on the sea of glass, having harps of God.

Those who got the victory over the beast, his image and his name are you implying that they got the victory through death?

Again 1 Thess 4:17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air.

Those who are alive... can't get plainer than that...

Edited to remove a bit

proudpapa wrote : "Zac did not recklessly make the statement, but instead he sincerely came to that conclusion from 50 years of studying the Scriptures."

I have not listened to much of it yet but here is a Verse by Verse Bible Study of the book of Revelations by Zac Poonen.

http://www.cfcindia.com/web/mainpages/verse_by_verse.php?book=vbv_revelation

Quote: "Those who are alive... can't get plainer than that..."

True, and direct to the point. "They" are definitely not dead and not killed by the antichrist. Except Paul addresses them not as "they" but as "we". He is writing to the saints from his own perspective when he says "WE which are alive":

1 Thessalonians 4:15  For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.

In other words "WE which are alive" are not leaving ahead of those currently asleep that are awaiting the first resurrection.

1 Thessalonians 4:17  Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

"WE which are alive" is the main group in his message, the ones that Paul identifies with and is speaking to prophetically, that "we-group" is the intended audience of the message, so he clearly gives us the hope we need by comforting us that we indeed can be alive at that time spoken of. Isn't that a great and comforting message?. I think yes, it is. Never saw 1 Thessalonians this way before today, Paul's message of hope to send us a clear message to built up our faith at that time, excellent!

Yet, we need an ear to hear it, it's for the saints with faith that are called to patience to endure:

Revelation 13:9  If any man have an ear, let him hear. He that leadeth into captivity shall go into captivity: he that killeth with the sword must be killed with the sword. Here is the patience and the faith of the saints.

Revelation 14:12  Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.

Sorry, I'm just catching up; lots to do.

Beloved Staff, Thanks for you contributions. It would be edifying to know what you have learned and understand regarding Elijah and the three and a half years. Can you post your thoughts.

You brother

David

Quote proudpapa "I know you not" would appear to me, that they where not saved. "

They are virgins so they are pure/saved

They could not have been unsaved because they had "lamps" and they had oil,and their lamps were lit.(All attributes of the believer).

'Know" in CONTEXT with a bride would denote intimacy.

They are without a shadow of doubt a group of Christians left behind.

Quote "What about those who names are written in the book of life they won't take the name.."

What it says is that those that take the mark ARE NOT in the book of life.
What it does not say is where those that ARE in the book of life are at that time.

You can't have it both ways.You can't say that every single human on the face of the earth is worshiping the devil man(Note;every single human being) and in the same instant think that there are those "in Christ" that are scurrying about dodging the massive army of the antichrist for 7 years.

This is clearly in contradiction with the martyrs.
Their number is fulfilled DURING the tribulation period.
That makes it impossible for any christian to be killed in the latter part of the trib period.

Z Poonen ""But as I studied the Scriptures carefully, honestly. I discovered it's not true.
I searched the Scriptures, the New Testament,, I could not find one verse. I studied it for 50 years,,, not one verse that taught that. ""

I cannot find one verse that teaches a post trib rapture....not one.

Quote: """'Know" in CONTEXT with a bride would denote intimacy."""

Not in context with the Bride, but in context with those the Father has given Him, as His own, the five virgins with oil in their lamps.

Matthew 25:12 But he answered and said , Verily I say unto you , I know you not .

"I know"; Strong's Greek Dictionary
1492. eido
Search for G1492 in KJVSL
eidw eido i'-do
a primary verb; used only in certain past tenses, the others being borrowed from the equivalent 3700 and 3708; properly, to see (literally or figuratively); by implication, (in the perfect tense only) to know:--be aware, behold, X can (+ not tell), consider, (have) know(-ledge), look (on), perceive, see, be sure, tell, understand, wish, wot. Compare 3700.

"you"; Strong's Greek Dictionary
5209. humas
Search for G5209 in KJVSL
umaV humas hoo-mas'
accusative case of 5210; you (as the objective of a verb or preposition):--ye, you (+ -ward), your (+ own).

"not"; Strong's Greek Dictionary
3756. ou
Search for G3756 in KJVSL
ou ou oo ouk ook, and (before an aspirate) ouch ookh
a primary word; the absolute negative (compare 3361) adverb; no or not:--+ long, nay, neither, never, no (X man), none, (can-)not, + nothing, + special, un(-worthy), when, + without, + yet but. See also 3364, 3372.

In Christ: Phillip

Hi psalm1

psalm1 wrote //// 'Know" in CONTEXT with a bride would denote intimacy.////

The phrase "I know you not." defined by other places in the Scripture, in which the same or similar phrase is used would denote not being saved.

"Not in context with the Bride, but in context with those the Father has given Him, as His own, the five virgins with oil in their lamps."

Would you so readily depart from scripture to prove your point?

Seriously?You did not even read the parable?
ALL HAD OIL. ALL WERE VIRGINS.

What a ridiculous attribution to put on the unsaved.That they could purchase salvation?

And then to assume that they actually did so, then knocked, and the groom sent them away?
Are you aware that postrib claims that there will be a massive revival during the tribulation?Why would the groom turn away the saved?

Are you aware that in the context of a husband and wife,they would be referred to as "knowing" each other,by the fact of the consummation,or intercourse?

Luke 1:34
Then said Mary unto the angel, How shall this be, seeing I know not a man?
Under your logic ,Mary only met women,and never had met Joseph.

Like I said,IN CONTEXT, "Know" would refer to intimacy.

Unless,of course,you think the parable is about something other than .....bride/groom.

"The phrase "I know you not." defined by other places in the Scripture, in which the same or similar phrase is used would denote not being saved."

You would have to butcher the parable.

Quote: """What a ridiculous attribution to put on the unsaved. That they could purchase salvation?

No one can purchase salvation, that is why the five that had no oil were told to go and by from man, (religion).

The other five had oil, (Holy Spirit) and were known by the Groom and allowed to enter the ceremony. These are in possession of the Oil (Holy Spirit). The five without oil, only had profession of religion. Therefore the five without oil, were not known by the Groom and did not get invited to the ceremony because they were trying to buy oil from the world which they thought would fill their lamps and trying to buy, they missed out on the possession entering in.

"I know you not." You were not in the company of those who attended me to the marriage feast, and are unknown to me.

Albert Barns; "Know you Not" Applied to professing Christians, having only a profession of religion, but no real piety, it means I know, or acknowledge you not as Christians. I do not approve of you, or delight in you, or admit you to be my friends. The word know is often used in the sense of approving, loving, acknowledging as real friends and followers. See Mt 7:23; Ps 1:6; 2Ti 2:19; 1Th 5:12.
{g} "I know you not" Hab 1:13

Quote: """Why would the groom turn away the saved?"""

He will not, that is why the five professing virgins were shut out.

In Christ: Phillip

The phrase "I know you not." defined by other places in the Scripture, in which the same or similar phrase is used would denote not being saved.

psalm1 ///You would have to butcher the parable.///

We need to compare Scripture with Scripture

When once the master of the house is risen up, and hath shut to the door, and ye begin to stand without, and to knock at the door, saying, Lord, Lord, open unto us; and he shall answer and say unto you, ((I know you not)) whence ye are:

QUOTE:
______________________________________________________________

"Might I suggest a daring step for some of you? Put your email address in your profile, so that you can be contacted!"
______________________________________________________________

AMEN! It would also help if you posted your name - a first name will do if you do not care to post your full name. Sometimes one does not know if the poster is a male or female. It is like you are responding to a robot!

Anyhow, I like your post, Sidewalk.

ginnyrose

Quote:"The other five had oil, (Holy Spirit) and were known by the Groom and allowed to enter the ceremony. These are in possession of the Oil (Holy Spirit). The five without oil, only had profession of religion. Therefore the five without oil, were not known by the Groom and did not get invited to the ceremony because they were trying to buy oil from the world which they thought would fill their lamps and trying to buy, they missed out on the possession entering in."

OK, you are real close.
However,note that the 5 foolish HAD oil in their laps.
7 Then all those virgins arose, and trimmed their lamps.

8 And the foolish said unto the wise, Give us of your oil; for our lamps are gone out.

They had oil,but not enough.

What made the wise virgins wise was the extra oil in the vessels with the lamps.
4 But the wise took oil in their vessels with their lamps.

But you are correct in tht you recognize the oil as a type of the HS.That is what the oil represents,the HS.

It is the HS that makes the difference.
Intimate bride vs those that are saved,but go for the economy package.
Or,as you say religious followers.

Quote;"We need to compare Scripture with Scripture

When once the master of the house is risen up, and hath shut to the door, and ye begin to stand without, and to knock at the door, saying, Lord, Lord, open unto us; and he shall answer and say unto you, ((I know you not)) whence ye are: "

Scripture is what we are talking about.

Oil =signifies the HS in scripture.
White= pure,righteous in sripture
Virgin= pure and righteous as in saved or redeemed in scripture.
Know concerning a man and woman= intercourse or consumation.

this is just applying the obvious.

You cannot possibly reconcile the false supposition that virgin is appplied to the unsaved as you are alluding.

Saw this on youtube it looking at the rapture pre-trib/post-trib.

John MacArthur vs Zac Poonen on the topic of the rapture.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jhRzCqmFQNc

Listen to it and make your own mind up.

psalm1 wrote : ///note that the 5 foolish HAD oil in their laps.
7 Then all those virgins arose, and trimmed their lamps.///

And the foolish said unto the wise, Give us of your oil; for our lamps are gone out.

We will probably never come to an agreement on any of this because we look at the Scriptures from two distinctly different lenses.

Matthew 24:13

But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.

Revelation 3:5
He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.

psalm1 wrote ////Oil =signifies the HS in scripture.
White= pure,righteous in sripture
Virgin= pure and righteous as in saved or redeemed in scripture.
Know concerning a man and woman= intercourse or consumation.
this is just applying the obvious.
You cannot possibly reconcile the false supposition that virgin is appplied to the unsaved as you are alluding.////

I do believe that the virgins whom are called 'foolish' and whoms 'lamps went out', of whom the 'door was shut' and told by the Lord 'I know you not', are indeed unsaved.

Verse 14 "For the kingdom of heaven is as a man travelling into a far country, who called his own servants, and delivered unto them his goods."

all three are called the travelling man's "own servants" and they all where recipients of the travelling mans goods.

But the unprofitable servant was cast out.

A question for pretrib ?

What are your thoughts regarding the rapture on the Christians Children whom are not old enough to know their right hand from their left and have not yet been saved ? Will they be left and abandoned or will they get a free pass since their parents are saved ?

Careful there, Proudpapa! There are so many questions like that that defy the cloudy notions of the Pretrib doctrine.

Do people's sinful clothes fall off on the way up? Do their white robes come with undergarments?

My questions range to the financial. Will God pay down the car loans of the rising saints? How about their massive credit card debt and mortgages?

I am in a special situation, my business supplied product to some church people in another state, a good faith deal where I was to be paid when they received the goods. They stiffed me. Do they get to go in the rapture too?

I can certainly forgive them on a personal level but they still owe the money, and as of this moment they are holding stolen property. They have not asked for forgiveness, by the way.

Just curious how all this stuff works out...

Quote: """Just curious how all this stuff works out..."""

I am sure God can work it all out, He seems pretty good at working things out. My money (faith) is on God, If He created the heavens and the earth and can bring forth children from rocks unto Abraham, I think I will trust He has it well in hand. Also that He can birth the Spirit of His Son in a person and make him a son of God, His offspring. WoW!

In Christ: Phillip

Quote by proudpapa;"I do believe that the virgins whom are called 'foolish' and whoms 'lamps went out', of whom the 'door was shut' and told by the Lord 'I know you not', are indeed unsaved."

In that case,according to the parable,Jesus turnesd away those that met every qualification as the saved.

You also have the unsaved described as pure,possessing oil,and then running out,and the same unsaved going out and "buying" salvation,but then told they are not welcome.

In short,you now have no difference between the saved and the unsaved if possessing "ssome" salvation is almost as good as posessing plenty of salvation.

The fact that they all had oil would now become"some salvation is never as good as plenty of salvation".

The unsaved,according to your interprretation,are also found as watching and waiting along with the saved,and looking foreward to meeting the savior.

You also have to depart from the blatantly obvious and go extrabiblical

Bizarre indeed

sidewalk;"Careful there, Proudpapa! There are so many questions like that that defy the cloudy notions of the Pretrib doctrine."

Postrib is so poorly thought out that I can not believe,with all the teaching of scripture concerning those raptured and found in heaven DURING the trib period,you can make such reckless statements against those using scripture,and not the conjecture of the postrib adherants.

Permission from the chinese persecuted saints to read obvious scripture?

Questions of underwear,debt,and children?

falsely depictimg Christ's loving remnant bride waiting for His appearing as nominal,decieved,baby "christians"

Some dream of a girl that is so debunked it is ludicrous?

Some made up rule about "first belief"?

All debunked, and all postrib "notions"

You really think scripture can be acurately understood with the human mind?

Postrib is increasingly apealing to "fairness"

As if God Has suddenly redefined himself as needing man's permission to make decisions.

consider this "fairness" of God.
Mat 20;11 And when they had received it, they murmured against the goodman of the house,

12 Saying, These last have wrought but one hour, and thou hast made them equal unto us, which have borne the burden and heat of the day.

13 But he answered one of them, and said, Friend, I do thee no wrong: didst not thou agree with me for a penny?

14 Take that thine is, and go thy way:....."

God is obviously not bound to any human's private interpretation of "fairness"

Scripture,correctly interpreted,does not depart from context,or the harmony God placed into it.

I have yet to see any postrib adherant seriously attempt to reconcile Jesus' promise to his bride of mansions in heaven,along with the wedding supper,the clear declaration of the saints,the 144k,and the 2 witneses all in heaven during the trib period,not to mention that all on the planet will have to worship the AC or die,along with "There will be buying,selling ,and marriages when the groom comes for the bride...........which is another utter impossibility with a postrib rapture.(the bizarre butchering of the 10 virgin parable comes to mind)

ALL scripture,all clear,clear teaching,and my doctrine does not REQUIRE belittleing,personal attacks,personal defamation,or ascribing some cloudy notion that postrib originated from blah,blah.blah.

All I have ever seen from postrib adhereants is a "7th trump/1st resurrection shell game and the "clincher" mat 24.

I suppose it escapes them that, yes,we also believe Jesus comes back AFTER the trib period.

I have never,ever seen any postrib adherant preface matt 24 IN CONTEXT. They skip 3 vital ingredients.
1) Jesus is answering 3 questions from the disciples
2) Where,in the bloody mayhem and trashing of the planet,is commerce possible?
3)They claim,erroneously, mat 24;31 is the rapture when it clearlly,clearly says the elect are gathered,not from earth,but from heaven.".....gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other."

For them to say "I disagree" would seem to be a stretch,since the weight of scripture dwarfs their conjectures.

But to dismiss so much testimony of God's word,and the mockery and false ascribing of plain junk to those with the upper hand,is beyond birarre.

Quote armkelly:"Psalm1 you are pretty much wasting your time trying to be reasonable or rational. Talk about brethren as cattle to be bred like dumb animals, talk about 97% of all humanity perishing or else talk about endless theologies and vanities and you'll find a welcome and a ready amen. "

Thanks,
It is comical though,the wierd 10 virgin parable dance the postrib adherants do.

It is like God has put up a huge bilboard in our front yard,and we still can't see it.

If there was a "pinnacle" of all heaven and the God of purpose,it would be the Marriage/consumation of the bride with Jesus.

Their error,is in not paying any attention to the most important thing in the universe.
IOW they are "tribulation prism" oriented instead of Bride/Groom oriented.

They litterally are blinded by their own "prism"

Hi psalm1,

psalm1 wrote//// In that case,according to the parable,Jesus turnesd away those that met every qualification as the saved.////

I am not convinced that they did meet "every qualification as the saved, they where called "foolish" "whoms lamps went out because they did not have oil in their vessels", whom where told that they where not known of the Bridegroom"

psalm1 wrote ////You also have the unsaved described as pure,possessing oil,and then running out,and the same unsaved going out and "buying" salvation,but then told they are not welcome.////

The five where not described as pure, but instead they where specifically described as "foolish"

"foolish" mwrovß, Moros,
Strongs definition: foolish, impious, godless

the "running out" was because they did not possess "oil in their ((vessels))"

psalm1 wrote ///In short,you now have no difference between the saved and the unsaved if possessing "ssome" salvation is almost as good as posessing plenty of salvation.
The fact that they all had oil would now become"some salvation is never as good as plenty of salvation".///

1. The saved where called wise, the others are called "foolish"

2. The saved where known, the others are "not known"

3. The saved took oil in their "vesseles", the other did not possess oil in their "vesseles".

4. The saved "went in with him to the marriage", the others "the door was shut"

psalm1 wrote ////The unsaved,according to your interprretation,are also found as watching and waiting along with the saved,and looking foreward to meeting the savior.////

"they all slumbered and slept."" but the wise took oil in their vessels"...

The foolish had no oil in their "vessels".

psalm1 wrote ////You also have to depart from the blatantly obvious and go extrabiblical
Bizarre indeed////

I find it Bizarre that you feel that I am departing from the blatantly obvious and going extrabiblical.

Re proudpapa;

The foolish had oil in their lamps.
The foolish were virgins
The foolish were waiting for Jesus
The foolish had the same "light" as the wise.
The foolish heard the cy at midnight,along with the wise.
The foolish res[ponded to the call,along with the wise.
The foolish asked for the missing ingrediant,FROM THE WISE.
The wise inferred they could impart that ingredient,but refused it on a "time" basis and reason.
The ONLY difference is the foolish did NOT have the EXTRA VESSELS with EXTRA oil.
(As in carnal believers vs spiritual believers)

You have painted yourself into a proverbial corner in ascribing reckless attributes to the parable.

You are ,I suppose, unaware of the different categories of believers.

Baby
Adolescent
Mature

cold
hot
lukewarm

carnal
spiritual

They are all considered brethren.(according to the WORD)

Now you have your first clue in getting a handle on the parable.

Please explain how you persist in ascribing "salvation" to the foolish in the face all that you now know of the parable.

Proudpapa;""foolish" mwrovß, Moros,
Strongs definition: foolish, impious, godless"

If foolish can only be atributed to the unsaved then the book of galations was a poor choice for the bible.

"You foolish Galations" was Pauls declaration to the SAVED

Are you saying Paul is describing himself as unsaved?
"17 That which I speak, I speak it not after the Lord, but as it were foolishly, in this confidence of boasting.

18 Seeing that many glory after the flesh, I will glory also.

19 For ye suffer fools gladly, seeing ye yourselves are wise.

20 For ye suffer, if a man bring you into bondage, if a man devour you, if a man take of you, if a man exalt himself, if a man smite you on the face.

21 I speak as concerning reproach, as though we had been weak. Howbeit whereinsoever any is bold, (I speak foolishly,) I am bold also.

22 Are they Hebrews? so am I. Are they Israelites? so am I. Are they the seed of Abraham? so am I.

23 Are they ministers of Christ? (I speak as a fool) I am more; in labours more abundant, in stripes above measure, in prisons more frequent, in deaths oft.

2 Corinthians 12:11
I am become a fool in glorying; ye have compelled me: for I ought to have been commended of you: for in nothing am I behind the very chiefest apostles, though I be nothing.

A christian can be both wise and foolish at the same time,or I could say "wise OR foolish"

The unsaved could be either wise OR foolish.

We could read for meaning,and realize,the foolish virgins were ONLY foolish in that they took no EXTRA oil.

Foolish has no bearing on salvation at all,otherwise none would be saved.

Re prouudpapa;"1. The saved where called wise, the others are called "foolish"

2. The saved where known, the others are "not known"

3. The saved took oil in their "vesseles", the other did not possess oil in their "vesseles".

4. The saved "went in with him to the marriage", the others "the door was shut""

Do you realise that if you actually read for meaning/comprehension,you have wise virgins/foolish virgins in the spaces you ascribe "saved" and "others"

Before long you will realise you are saying wise VIRGINS/foolish VIRGINS

Look closely,you are getting close.

Clue=virgins

psalm1 wrote ///Please explain how you persist in ascribing "salvation" to the foolish in the face all that you now know of the parable.///

I am not ascribing "salvation" to the foolish virgins, they where foolish and had no oil in their vessels, they where not known of the Lord and they where shut out.

psalm1 wrote ///Clue=virgins///

I am not convinced that virgin in this parable is symbolic of purity (Salvation) as you continue to insist.

Verse 11 says : "Afterward came also the other virgins, saying, Lord, Lord, open to us."

((Lord, Lord, open to us.)) is almost verbatim of Luke 13:25

Luke 13:25 describes the situation that the foolish virgins found themselves in, Lets read Luke 13:25 and compare:

1.)When once the master of the house is risen up,
(((Matt. 25:6 "the bridegroom cometh")))

2.)and hath shut to the door,
(((Matt. 25:10 and the door was shut. )))

3.)and ye begin to stand without, and to knock at the door, saying, Lord, Lord, open unto us;
((( Matt. 25:11 Afterward came also the other virgins, saying, Lord, Lord, open to us.)))

4.)and he shall answer and say unto you, I know you not whence ye are:
(((Matt. 25:12 But he answered and said, Verily I say unto you, I know you not.)))

We have an almost identical situation, Lets continue with what Luke 13 concludes :
26 Then shall ye begin to say, We have eaten and drunk in thy presence, and thou hast taught in our streets.

27 But he shall say, I tell you, I know you not whence ye are; depart from me, all ye workers of iniquity.

Luke 13:22 And he went through the cities and villages, teaching, and journeying toward Jerusalem.

Where and who is He teaching? Israel.

The same goes for the parable of the ten virgins. Who is He speaking to. Israel after the rapture and the first 3 1/2 years of the tribulation.

This brings the parable into the realm or not the body of Christ but the people of Israel and the promises are to them. That is why 5 made it in and 5 did not.

In Christ: Phillip

Christinyou wrote : ////Luke 13:22 And he went through the cities and villages, teaching, and journeying toward Jerusalem.
Where and who is He teaching? Israel.////

Christinyou wrote : ////The same goes for the parable of the ten virgins. Who is He speaking to. Israel after the rapture and the first 3 1/2 years of the tribulation.////

The context of these verses is not Jesus /speaking to. Israel after the rapture and the first 3 1/2 years of the tribulation./

The context is Jesus speaking these things to 1st Century Israel not mid trib Israel.

Edit add, Sovereign God has inspired these things in our Christian Bibles, Because these things are speaking to us.

Then the premise is the 10 virgins are all saved but 5 could not get in through the door. This leads to works salvation. This is a parable for Israel, they did not have the Holy Spirit to reveal the truth. So how could 5 virgins not be allowed into the marriage supper, not the marriage, for the Bride is not even mentioned. So when is the supper, after the marriage, correct? Who are trying to get in that cannot enter? He came to His own and they received Him not. Who will receive Him?

Acts 28:25-28 And when they agreed not among themselves, they departed, after that Paul had spoken one word, Well spake the Holy Ghost by Esaias the prophet unto our fathers, Saying, Go unto this people, and say, Hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and not perceive: For the heart of this people is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes have they closed; lest they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them. Be it known therefore unto you, that the salvation of God is sent unto the Gentiles, and that they will hear it.

Five in; The 144,000 plus those that are saved by their example and preaching. Five not in; those that believe in their own salvation being because they are Jews, not the Israel of God, as Romans 11:7 What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded and Romans 9:6 Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:

In Christ: Phillip

proudpapa;"I am not convinced that virgin in this parable is symbolic of purity (Salvation) as you continue to insist."

Virgin associated with purity is a fact.

It not conjecture or mis-interpreted.

I suppose mary being a virgin(as opposed to being defiled)

Is of no importance either

Note that you also have sinners with light,oil,and watching eagerly for Jesus.

As if that is not bizarre enough,you also have sinners asking christians to impart salvation completelly apart from he savior.
Then.....you have sinners going and buyinng salvation but it is not good enough,as if there are several salvations.

This so warps the simple basic parable noting there is not even a hint that the savior had ANY connection WHATSOEVER to the oil.Infact it is not even recommended that the 5 foolish seek anything from the savior,as if salvation is some substance apart from Jesus.

Like I said you painted yourself in a corner big time.

proudpapa,here is your "parallel" to the parable of the 10 virgins.
---23 Then said one unto him, Lord, are there few that be saved? And he said unto them,

24 Strive to enter in at the strait gate: for many, I say unto you, will seek to enter in, and shall not be able.

25 When once the master of the house is risen up, and hath shut to the door, and ye begin to stand without, and to knock at the door, saying, Lord, Lord, open unto us; and he shall answer and say unto you, I know you not whence ye are:

26 Then shall ye begin to say, We have eaten and drunk in thy presence, and thou hast taught in our streets.

27 But he shall say, I tell you, I know you not whence ye are; depart from me, all ye workers of iniquity.

28 There shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth, when ye shall see Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, and all the prophets, in the kingdom of God, and you yourselves thrust out.

29 And they shall come from the east, and from the west, and from the north, and from the south, and shall sit down in the kingdom of God.

Note that they said they ate and drank with Jesus.

Are you aware that there are many degrees and classes of christianns?
Lets see if any christians will be shut out;
14 And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God;

15 I know thy works, that thou art neither cold nor hot: I would thou wert cold or hot.

16 So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spue thee out of my mouth.

17 Because thou sayest, I am rich, and increased with goods, and have need of nothing; and knowest not that thou art wretched, and miserable, and poor, and blind, and naked:

18 I counsel thee to buy of me gold tried in the fire, that thou mayest be rich; and white raiment, that thou mayest be clothed, and that the shame of thy nakedness do not appear; and anoint thine eyes with eyesalve, that thou mayest see.

19 As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten: be zealous therefore, and repent.

20 Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me.

21 To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne.

22 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches.

Note,he says he will spew christians (those brethren in laodecia) out of his mouth.

In all your scenarios,there is not any mercy or room for the carnal christian to repent,or be chastised,because you cannot possibly have a 2nd great tribulation for the carnal to be martered.

You obvious missed the fact that in luke 13 we have the rapture,and those left behinfd and martered as the "last shall be first.

Notice"sit down with me in my fatheers throne".That is "up" in heaven.Pretrib rapture.raptured to SIT,not get on horses.Raptured to heaven,to the marriage.Not to horses and battle.

Hi psalm1

psalm1 wrote /// Virgin associated with purity is a fact///

It is psalms1 (((opinion))) that virgin in this parable is symbolic of Salvation, As I said, I honestly can say that nothing that you have written has convinced me that this is the case, and from my perspective it is not my position that has painted itsself into a corner.

People have doctrines such as OSAS and they have to make all of the Scriptures fit, But the Scriptures do not all fit such doctrines.
So they have to come up with ways of explaining away the Scriptures that do not fit.
So men create dispensational theolgies and calvinist theologies and etc.

Luke 9:1
Then he called his twelve disciples together, and gave them power and authority over all devils, and to cure diseases.

Did this include Judas ?

The Five Foolish, who did not have Oil in their vessels, Whom where not known of the Lord and whom the door was shut.

Hear ye therefore the parable of the sower

20 But he that received the seed into stony places, the same is he that heareth the word, and anon with joy receiveth it;
21 Yet hath he not root ((no Oil in his vessel)) in himself, but (((dureth for a while))): for when tribulation or persecution ariseth because of the word, by and by he is offended.
22 He also that received seed among the thorns is he that heareth the word; and the care of this world, and the deceitfulness of riches, choke the word, and he becometh unfruitful.

The Five Wise, whom took Oil in their vessels

23 But he that received seed into the good ground is he that heareth the word, and understandeth it; which also beareth fruit, and bringeth forth, some an hundredfold, some sixty, some thirty.

John 15:2
Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away: and every branch that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit.

Hi psalm1

psalm1 wrote : ///////proudpapa,here is your "parallel" to the parable of the 10 virgins.
---23 Then said one unto him, Lord, are there few that be saved? And he said unto them,
24 Strive to enter in at the strait gate: for many, I say unto you, will seek to enter in, and shall not be able.
25 When once the master of the house is risen up, and hath shut to the door, and ye begin to stand without, and to knock at the door, saying, Lord, Lord, open unto us; and he shall answer and say unto you, I know you not whence ye are:
26 Then shall ye begin to say, We have eaten and drunk in thy presence, and thou hast taught in our streets.
27 But he shall say, I tell you, I know you not whence ye are; depart from me, all ye workers of iniquity.
28 There shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth, when ye shall see Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, and all the prophets, in the kingdom of God, and you yourselves thrust out.
29 And they shall come from the east, and from the west, and from the north, and from the south, and shall sit down in the kingdom of God.////////

psalm1 wrote : ///////Note that they said they ate and drank with Jesus.
Are you aware that there are many degrees and classes of christianns?///////

Are you implying that the "workers of iniquity" are pure saved Christians ??,
just a lower class of Christians, that miss the rapture and have to endure the tribulation ??

am I understanding you correctly??

Is that what pretrib dispensationalism teaches ??
or am I missunderstanding something ??

Do you believe that those whom work iniquity in Matthew 7 are also saved ??

21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

Are you implying that the "workers of iniquity" are pure saved Christians ??,
just a lower class of Christians, that miss the rapture and have to endure the tribulation ??

Yes it is a fact that we as christians work inequity.

Christians working inequity?

Peter comes to mind,with his departure from grace in making circumcison a requirement for salvation.

1 cor 3;13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.

14 If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.

15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.

I asked psalm1 : "Are you implying that the "workers of iniquity" are pure saved Christians ??,
just a lower class of Christians, that miss the rapture and have to endure the tribulation ??
am I understanding you correctly??
Is that what pretrib dispensationalism teaches ??
or am I missunderstanding something ??"

psalm1 responded : ///Yes it is a fact that we as christians work inequity///

psalm1 also responded : ///Christians working inequity?
Peter comes to mind,with his departure from grace in making circumcison a requirement for salvation.///

I also asked : " Do you believe that those whom work iniquity in Matthew 7 are also saved ??"

I would still be interested in hearing your response to that question.

Of Luke 13 23 - 29 Psalms one said : ///Note that they said they ate and drank with Jesus.
Are you aware that there are many degrees and classes of christianns?...///

What I am trying to figure out psalm1, is does your pretrib eschatology cause you to believe that those whom "work iniquity" as in Matthew 7 are indeed saved Christians ?

and of Luke 13 23-29 of whom you said : ///Note that they said they ate and drank with Jesus.///
Are you implying by that statement that your pretrib eschatology cause you to interpret that those whom are said of Luke 13 to be "workers of iniquity" are indeed saved Christians ? and that the "weeping and gnashing of teeth." is only referring to missing the rapture and not hell ?

Quote'If you are a pre-trib believer that got taught that doctrine in a youth group or general church setting I would print out that article on the last page and show it to that person that currently teaches it."

I have shown repeatedly the ridiculousness of this methodology.

Under this SAME logic,all of Christianity would have to be thrown out.

What is going on here?

Why do some persist in these rabbit trails???

Look at the perversion of the Holy bible by those in history.

What is next? "I would never believe that bible since I became "educated" with those that have promoted this book of lies"

Do you really look to man for your final authority???

I can handily,easily defend the pretrib rapture using scripture.
I don't care "who said what" along side of me. That is their problem.

Under this ridiculous notion of destroying the message via the messenger,all I need is for any apostate heretic to mention one word against truth and it nullifies the very utterance of God.
This really seems desperate,to depart from scripture and hope for default????

Proudpapa'Are you implying by that statement that your pretrib eschatology cause you to interpret that those whom are said of Luke 13 to be "workers of iniquity" are indeed saved Christians ? and that the "weeping and gnashing of teeth." is only referring to missing the rapture and not hell ?"

No I am pointing out the fallacy of forcing your parallel to the 10 virgin parable.

I already showed you that christians are imperfect.
The word declares there is a lake of fire for "those that work inequity"
Of course the unsaved are not christians.

What you are doing is broad brushing into oblivion.

To understand the plan of God,I need to know the difference in how God viewed David and Saul.

The difference in saved and not saved is not a mathematical formula or a name in a book.

The difference is HOW the name GOT INTO the book and the strength of covenant and son ship.

I realise you cannot possibly understand the parable because you do not see how the sins of carnal Christians could possibly set themselves up for a place of distinction in heaven.
And yet,it is clear,abundantly clear that God's methods are not fair to man's discernment.

psalm1 wrote : ////No I am pointing out the fallacy of forcing your parallel to the 10 virgin parable.
I already showed you that christians are imperfect.
The word declares there is a lake of fire for "those that work inequity"
Of course the unsaved are not christians.
What you are doing is broad brushing into oblivion////

Their is no fallacy in comparing Scripture with Scripture such as the parallel of words and phrases used in both the 10 virgin parable and in Luke 13.

I will reiterate the parallel

Luke 13:25 : When once the master of the house is risen up
(Matthew 25:10 : And while they went to buy, the bridegroom came;),

Luke 13:25 : and (((hath shut to the door,)))
(Matthew 25:10 and they that were ready went in with him to the marriage: (((and the door was shut.))),

Luke 13:25 : and ye begin to stand without, and to knock at the door, (((saying, Lord, Lord, open unto us;)))
(Matthew 25:11 Afterward came also the other virgins, (((saying, Lord, Lord, open to us.)))

Luke 13:25 : and he shall answer and say unto you, (((I know you not whence ye are:)))
Matthew 25:12 But he answered and said, Verily I say unto you, (((I know you not.)))

Note that they said they ate and drank with Jesus, and that they where told in response : "I know you not whence ye are; depart from me, all ye workers of iniquity.
There shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth, when ye shall see Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, and all the prophets, in the kingdom of God, and you yourselves thrust out."

Can we agree Psalms1 that the phrases in Luke 13 : (((hath shut to the door,))) (((saying, Lord, Lord, open unto us;))) (((I know you not whence ye are:))) etc. are speaking of something other than missing just the rapture?

and if indeed we can agree on that point.
Could it than be possible that what Luke 13 is implying is the same as what Matthew 25 is implying ?

proudpappa """Can we agree Psalms1 that the phrases in Luke 13 : (((hath shut to the door,))) (((saying, Lord, Lord, open unto us;))) (((I know you not whence ye are:))) etc. are speaking of something other than missing just the rapture?

and if indeed we can agree on that point.
Could it than be possible that what Luke 13 is implying is the same as what Matthew 25 is implying ? """

I can see that the need to make "virgin" into something other than "virgin" is what you are getting at.

Hi psalm1,

psalm1 wrote ///I can see that the need to make "virgin" into something other than "virgin" is what you are getting at.///

Your opinion that "virgin" represents saved is not what I believe the context is alluding to.

I feel that your opinion that "virgin" represents salvation in the parable, could be based on nothing other than reading the parable with a preconcieved pretrib dispensational eschatology.

I asked you : "Are you implying by that statement that your pretrib eschatology cause you to interpret that those whom are said of Luke 13 to be "workers of iniquity" are indeed saved Christians ? and that the "weeping and gnashing of teeth." is only referring to missing the rapture and not hell ?"

psalm1 you replied : ///No I am pointing out the fallacy of forcing your parallel to the 10 virgin parable.///

I am not forcing a parallel, I am comparing Scripture with Scripture and asking if it could be possible that the following phases represent the same things in both Luke 13 and Matthew 25 :

(((hath shut to the door,)))(((and the door was shut.)))

(((saying, Lord, Lord, open unto us;)))(((saying, Lord, Lord, open to us.)))

(((I know you not whence ye are:)))(((I know you not.)))

The phrases used in both are almost verbatim but it feels that your eschatology causes you to believe that the phrases are referring to two completely separate things.

Yet at the same time it appears from what I have gathered that your entire foundation for having evidence that the Parable of the 10 virgins is referring to a pretrib rapture, is only based on the word "virgin" and that it has to refer to a once saved always saved Christian.

Friend you have not convinced me that the word "virgin" in the parable of the 10 virgins represents a OSAS Christian.