Beliefs Accompanying the Pre-Tribulational View

I finally came to a posttribulational viewpoint because of what I honestly think the scriptural view is. I know most can say the same regarding their view. Even though I'm posttribulational I still am pre-millennial and not amillennial and I don't believe the Church is Israel but rather that the Church is made up of those who are partaking of promises made to Israel. I read of all the issues and discussed them with others on other forums and came to be suprised by many of the views that commonly accompany the pre-trib view. I heard it asked if the common lay person who advocates the pretrin view is aware of the beliefs that accompany it so often. When the pre-trib view was presented to me over the years nobody said much about the other views that so often accompany this view. I have been suprised also because of the many different views in the pre-trib camp that can be bewildering to a certain degree. I thought there was more common agreement. I might be wrong but I wonder if many who advocate the pre-trib view know of the many outight reverses and changes that have been made in the pretrib view over the years so as to help it maintain credibility. Many people who believe in the pre-trib view agree with the following while many don't.

1) The Day of the Lord does not occur at the end of the tribulation but includes the entire length of the final 7 years culminating in the great tribulation.

Me: Since its inception in the 1830s pre-tribulationism had taught that the Old Testament righteous would be resurrected and raptured along with the rest of the Church at the pre-tribulational rapture. This was shown to be a glaring error and was later changed and later even the timing of the Day of the Lord was changed. This history of change can be seen in the following quote,

"In 1937 Alexander Reese published, “The Approaching Advent of Christ.” Before this, earlier pretribulationists put the day of the Lord at the end of the tribulation. They also put the resurrection of the OT righteous at the time of the pretribulation rapture until Reese pointed out that the Old Testament righteous do not rise until the end of the tribulation at the last day (Job 19:25-26; Isa 26:19, 20; Dan 12:1-2; Jn 6:39-40, 44,54; 11:24; 12:48)."

"It is a little known fact that in reaction to the inconsistencies pointed out by Reese’s book, pretribulationists began to teach that the OT righteous would not be raised with the church at the rapture (as formerly believed), but would continue to ‘sleep in the dust of the earth’ until the ‘last day’ at the end of the tribulation (Dan 12:1-2)."

"At the same time, Reese pointed out that Paul had instructed the church to be on guard for the day of the Lord (1Thes 5:2, 6-, as also Peter exhorts believers to be always “looking for and hasting to the coming of the day of the God” (2Pet 3:12 ASV). This would hardly make sense if the church has been removed from the earth seven years before a post-tribulational day of the Lord. The force of Reese’s argument induced some of the earlier pretribulationists to rethink their placement of the day of the Lord."

"After the publication of Reese’s book, pretribulationists moved the day of the Lord forward to the beginning of the seven years. The day of the Lord would now be seen as starting with the imminent, unsignaled, pretribulation rapture. In this way, both the rapture and the day of the Lord could be seen as coming suddenly, unexpectedly, and without preceding signs, “like a thief in the night” (1Thes 5:2; 2Pet 3:10). It seemed the perfect solution."

"In 1973 Robert Gundry wrote, “The Church and the Great Tribulation. In the years following Reese’s landmark rebuttal, pretribulationists taught that the day of the Lord should be understood to begin with the any moment rapture. This would soon change, at least in academic circles."

"Gundry pointed out the simple fact that regardless of where the day of the Lord is thought to begin, if we say it starts with the rapture, then the rapture cannot be maintained as an imminent event, simply because Paul says that ‘that day’ shall not come until the man of sin has first been revealed (2Thes 2:2-3)."

"This is decisive, because regardless of where one begins “that day”, it cannot be disassociated from Christ’s return to ‘gather together’ the church (2Thes 2:1-3). Gundry’s logic sent waves throughout the pretribulational camp, but another strategic adjustment was soon to follow.

"I have scholarly articles published in journals where pretribulationists admit the problem posed by Gundry. The answer for the difficulty was to propose an additional gap between the rapture and the day of the Lord in order to provide time for the Antichrist to be revealed ‘after’ the rapture, but ‘before’ the start of the day of the Lord."

"The acknowledgment that the day of the Lord is signaled by the advance revelation of the Antichrist puts to rest the false theory that the use of the term, ‘thief’, requires the concept of imminence (an event that may occur any moment without warning). No, it is clear that the Lord and the apostles apply this term (i.e., ‘day of the Lord’) to an event that is by no means imminent, as now admitted, even by pretribulationists."

(From article The Rapture Question Answered Decisively By The Timing Of The Day Of The Lord - R. Kelly)

Me: I wonder how many laypeople in the pew who advocate the pre-trib position know of these changes that had to be made for the pre-trib view to maintain its credibility. Epsecially the changing of the Day of the Lord from occuring at the end of the tribulation to including the entire breadth of the final seven years? Notes in the 1917 edition of the Scofield Bible states plainly that the Day of the Lord occurs at the end of the tribulation and the 1965 revised edition of the Scofield Bible places the Day of the Lord as beginning at the pre-trib rapture and including the entire breadth of the final seven years. To say this is a minor and incidental part of the development of doctrine in the pre-trib view is incorrect. Changing the timing of the Day of the Lord to include the entire seven years is a colossial change of staggering importance that affects everything as far as final eschatology goes and is a glaring example of exegetical manipulation in my opinion. Outside of academic circles few may even know this change was made.

2) The age of grace will end at the pre-tribulation rapture of the Church. All those saved after the pre-trib rapture will still be able to be saved but they will not be saved in the age of grace which will end with the rapture.

Me: When it pointed out that the tribulation is portayed as perhaps the greatest time of evangelization and soul winning that has ever the reply I have usually got is that grace will still be operative during that time but more along the lines of how grace operated under the Old Testament era. My thought has laws been that if grace will still be operative during that time and people will still be saved because of grace then how can it be advocated that the age of grace will have ended at this time.

3) The Holy Spirit will be removed from the earth at the pre-trib rapture. Since the Holy Spirit indwells the Church and the Church will be gone the present minstry of the Holy Spirit will be stopped as it is withdrawn from the earth.

Me: This seems to be a reversal of Pentecost. God is actually going to reverse what He began at Pentecost by taking the Spirit from the earth? Paul stated that "our gospel did not come to you in word only, but also in power and in the Holy Spirit and with full conviction;" (I Thess 1:5) so how will the gospel be preached with full conviction and power during the tribulation if the Spirit is gone? It's the Spirit that convicts the world because of its sin (John 16: At Pentecost Peter stated, "Therefore having been exalted to the right hand of God, and having received from the Father the promise of the Holy Spirit, He has poured forth this which you both see and hear" (Acts 2:33). In reply, it's usually argued that the Holy Spirit will be gone but it will still be active on the earth. My question then was why would the Spirit leave if it is still going to be active on the earth? The reply has usually been it wil be active as it was during the Old Testament era during the tribulation.

4) Those saved during the tribulation will not be part of the Church. The Church will be gone and the age of grace ended and those saved during the tribulation will belong to the redeeemd entity of Israel which is an entrirely different group than those of the Church.

Me: Rev 7:14 states that "These are the ones who have come out of the great tribulation, and they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb." Yet according to pretribulationism thay are still not part of the Church even though every believer from Christ until the rapture who had their robes washed white in the blood of the Lamb became part of the Church.

The question arising from this view has been stated as,

"Does the suggestion that Israel has yet a role to play in the program apart from the inclusion of the Jews within the worldwide fellowship of people who acknowledge Jesus as Savior, Messiah and Lord necessarily encroach on the finality of what Christ accomplished in the establishment of His Church as the one people of God in which all racial barriers have been eradicated? And how can Israel serve both as a type of the kingdom inaugurated at Christ's first advent but consummated only at His second and as a distinct group possessing theological importance alongsdide of the spiritual kingdom of Christ - the Church?" (From "The Millennial Maze" - by Stanley J. Grenz - ch 4 "A Future Kingdom For Israel" - pg 124)

5) The Holy Spirit will not indwell believers who come to faith during the tribulation. It's present inward ministry to believers will have stopped at the end of the age of grace which will end when the pre-trib rapture takes place. The Spirit will be "with" tribulation believers but not "in" tribulation believers as on the day of Pentecost when "they were all filled with the Holy Spirit" (Acts 2:4). Tribulation believers simply will not be given the privileges and promises that accompany believers during this church age of grace.

Me: When I have heard this belief stated and advocated I have always wondered how one can be saved and born again if the Spirit does not dwell within them. How can one experience the new birth and inward regeneration if the Spirit does not reside within? I've been told that the tribulation believers will be saved but not regenerated inwardly as those who believed before the end of the age of grace that will end at the pre-trib rapture. A new take on the nature of New Testament salvation itself seems to be advocated if this is so.

6) Only part of the New Testament scriptures will be relevant for those who come to faith during the tribulation. Since much of the New Testament scriptures concerned the Church and part concerned Israel the parts pertaining to the Church now gone will be of no importance or relevance for those who come to faith during the tribulation since they will not become part of the Church.

Me: I'm thinking that those saved during the tribulation have been reduced to experiencing a second tier salvation altogether if when they come to faith the Spirit will not indwell them and major portions of the New Testament will supposedly not even concern them since they are to not be part of the Church. Poor Israel who will experience this second class salvation!

7) The Church has no role to play whatsoever as far as supprt and witness to Israel during the final tribulational time of Jacob's trouble (Jeremiah 30:7, Daniel 12:1, Matt 24:21).

Me: This may be the point associated with the pre-trib view tha has the biggest possibility of dire consequences as far as the eschatological preparation of the Church is concerned. More is at stake than can be imagined. If the Church is to be be here for the duration and what better people to befriend and witness to Israel than a prepared servant Church that holds the key to prophetic interpretation that will explain to Israel why it finds itself in the predicament it will. When world opinion has turned against Israel and it finds itself harried, pursued and persecuted then there can be a servant Church prepared to lay down it life for beleagured Israel. This Church will be devoid of its own self interests and will willingly accept its tribulational role even as it finds itself harried and persecuted and in the wilderess also. It is then that "those who know their God will display strength and take action and those who have insight among the people will give understanding to the many" (Daniel 11:32-33). The Church will have the insight as to what is occuring and will witness to Jews and Gentiles and point them to Christ. This befriending and support of Israel will help pave the way to heal the historical breach between Isarel and the Church since it is the Church who so often during its history has stood with its feet on the neck of the Jews. It's God's wisdom and genius to have the Church present and functioning to Israel since the destinies of both are beginning to converge again.

Summary:

- The Day of the Lord does not occur at the end of the tribulation but includes the entire length of the final 7 years culminating in the great tribulation.

- The age of grace will end at the pre-tribulation rapture of the Church.

- The Holy Spirit will be removed from the earth at the pre-trib rapture.

- Those saved during the tribulation will not be part of the Church.

- The Holy Spirit will not indwell believers who come to faith during the tribulation.

- Only part of the New Testament scriptures will be relevant for those who come to faith during the tribulation.

- The Church has no role to play as far as support and witness to Israel during the final tribulational time of Jacob's trouble (Jeremiah 30:7, Daniel 12:1, Matt 24:21).

I may have come across as provocative and I'm not trying to. I'm just of the opinion that the question of the rapture and when it occurs is one of very great and growing importance and the believers need to wrestle it out as well as possible. And it's not just whether or when the rapture will occur but as referenced above there are many questions and beliefs that often accompany the pre-trib view that need looking at again in my opinion. Much is at stake as far as the Church's preparation for the future is concerned especially in regards to any role it will play regarding Israel in the future. We may have to try hard but we can look at things again and discuss them in a manner characterized by wisdom from above that is pure and peaceful and gentle and without hypocrisy and destined to bear fruit.

Blessings to you.

Thanks for your replies and the time you took in doing so. I'm sorry I haven't got back to you before now but have just been busy. I haven't got as much time as I desire even now but can share a few of my thoughts.

More so than Jesus coming as a thief for a secret rapture of His church, I believe the day of the Lord is spoken of as coming like a thief on a unbelieving and unsuspecting world not prepared for it. There is a vast difference.

1 - Now as to the times and the epochs, brethren, you have no need of anything to be written to you.

2 - For you know full well that the day of the Lord will come just like a thief in the night.

3 - While they are saying, "Peace and safety!" then destruction will come upon them suddenly like birth pangs upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.

4 - But you, brethren, are not in darkness, that the day should overtake you like a thief;

5 - for you are all sons of light and sons of day. We are not of night nor of darkness.

6 - so then let us not sleep as others do, but let us be alert and sober. (I Thess 5:1-6)

Verse 2 shows it is the day of the Lord spoken of as coming like a thief in the night and verse 4 shows that is the day of the Lord that will overtake many like a thief. The same is seen in II Peter 3:10 - it's the day of the Lord that will come like a thief.

The one instance where Jesus speaks of coming like a thief is Rev 16:15. This is when the 6th bowl is being poured out and is near the end of the tribulation and is seen in connection with the great day of God, the Almighty. This great day of God the Almighty is the day of the Lord.

12 - And the sixt angel poured out his bowl upon the great river, the Euphrates; and its water was dried up, that the way might be prepared for the kings from the east.

13 - And I saw coming out of the mouth of the dragon and out of the mouth of the beast and out of the mouth of the false prophet, three unclean spirits like frogs;

14 - for they are spirits of demons, performing signs, which go out to the kings of the whole world, to gather them together for the war of the great day of God, the Almighty.

15 - (Behold, I am coming like a thief. Blessed is the one who stays awake and keeps his garments, lest he walk about naked and men see his shame.) (Rev 16:12-15)

Jesus' reference to coming like a thief is clearly after the sixth bowl has begun to be poured out which is clearly near the end of the tribulation and very near to the second coming and the end of the age. So Christ couldn't possibly have referred to his coming like a thief in connection to a secret rapture of the Church seven years or so before the end of the age. It's not exegetically possible and the statement of Jesus in Rev 16:15 of coming like a thief gives clear defintion and clarity to the timing of His statements in Matt 24:43 and Luke 12:39 regarding the coming of the thief.

I Thessalonians 4;13-18 is a reference to the second coming of Christ and there are sound and firm reasons to believe so.

13 - But we do not want you to be uninformed, brethren, about those who are asleep, that you may not grieve, as do the rest who have no hope.

14- For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who have fallen asleep in Jesus.

15 - For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive, and remain until the coming of the Lord, shall not precede those who have fallen asleep.

16 - For the Lord Himself will descebnd from heaven with a shout, with the voice o the archangel, and with the trumpet of God; and the dead in Christ shall rise first.

17 - Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and thus we shall always be with the Lord.

18 - Therefore comfort one another with these words. (I Thess 4:13-18)

This is the time when the translation and glorification of the saints living and dead occurs in the twinkling of an eye.

51 - Behold, I tell you a mystery; we shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,

52 - in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet; for the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we shall all be changed.

53 - For this perishable must put on the imperishable, and thi mortal must put on immortality.

54 - But when this perishable will have put on the imperishable, and this mortal wll have put on immortality, then will come about the saying that is written, "Death is swallowed up in victory.

55 - "O death, where is your victory? O death, where is your sting? (I Cor 15:51-55)

"Death is swallowed up in victory" is taken from Isaiah 25:8 which refers to the time of Israel's final deliverance from their enemies and the resurrection of their righteous dead at the end of the age. When this final deliverance takes place and death is swallowed up it will be said " O death, where is your victory, O death where is your sting?" This occurs at the end of the age and Paul obviously links it to the same time as the resurrection and translation of the Christian saint as seen by his references in I Cor 15:51-55. Since Israel's righteous are raised at the last day at the end of the age (Job 19:25-26; Isa 26:19, 20; Dan 12:1-2; Jn 6:39-40, 44,54; 11:24; 12:48) then the raising and translation of the Christian saints would have to be at the end of the age and ot seven years before. At the very end of the age, when the 6th bowl is poured out near the end of the tribulation, is when Christ speaks of coming like a thief. Thus a secret rapture of the Church to occur seven years before that is to occur as a thief in the night is left mute and unprovable. It was Paul who under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit linked the time of the raising and translation of the Christian saints with the raisng and resurrection of Israel's righteous - at he end of the age.

I praise God for you brother Andrew!

Although I don't have the time right now to read and study all that you have written on this thread like I would like to, what I have 'read over' has tremendously been a blessing to me.

I for one appreciate the sacrifice and the price it has cost you in receiving the insight and wisdom of the scriptures.

You have explained the need to being "dressed in readiness" as well as why "there is the warning" to be ready for His coming better than most I have heard.

Please, I hope you don't let this come off as a "flattering" but from a man who is truly "after God's own heart" to another man who is believed to be also "after God's own heart".

I can't help how you perceive it but you have truly blessed me with truth from God's Word and I am grateful for it!

Blessings...from brother rbanks

Andrew, I also have been blessed by the knowledge of the Word God has given you. The Holy Spirit is truly the greatest teacher, Himself being God almighty. To see this blessing in other brothers and sisters is confirming God placing His Only Son in the believer giving life and the Holy Spirit Teacher giving truth. Praise God for you and all on this forum seeking the Truth.

This is truly hard in my own conceit, to praise and uplift brothers and sisters, knowing and praying that even I must decrease and He must increase. Why is it so hard to say what is inside ones own heart?

Thank you Andrew and may God richly bless you, that you may bless others.

Thank you rbanks for the unction to give thanks to others.

In Christ: Phillip

Hi Docs,
1.The tribulation is all about the a 7 year period of time divided in two 3 1/2 yr periods.Anything to do with 3 1/2 year period in the bible is always connected to Elijah.
If you dont study Elijah in my opinion you cannot understand this part of the end times.
2.Also Jesus said "as it was in the days of "Noah" and "Lot"
They did eat,they drank,given in Marriage,bought and sold etc "until the day".
We can see that the earth was functioning pretty much as normal in the two specific examples Christ gave.The world was not post apocalyptic world for the want of a better word.
Jesus went out of his way to highlight that things would be A- normal
b-Normal right up to the day

The problem I have with the Post trib view is this,
The earth is after going through the worst time in its history not alone with the reign of the Anti Christ but also with wrath of God being poured out upon it and people are buying and selling(means their is something to buy economy) eating and drinking,marrying
3.We see that their is no time for the earth to recover to normality after the tribulation in the verse below when it says "immediately after the tribulation"

29“But immediately after the tribulation of those days THE SUN WILL BE DARKENED, AND THE MOON WILL NOT GIVE ITS LIGHT, AND THE STARS WILL FALL from the sky, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken.30“And then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the SON OF MAN COMING ON THE CLOUDS OF THE SKY with power and great glory.31“And He will send forth His angels with A GREAT TRUMPET and THEY WILL GATHER TOGETHER His elect from the four winds, from one end of the sky to the other.

I'd like you to consider these points,
Yours Staff

1 Thessalonians 5
"1 But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you."

chapter 5 verse one starts with the word "But" "dev" "De" this is a conjunction word, : meaning that it is joining the previous thoughts of chapter 4 with what is now being said.
chapter 4 was speaking of the coming of the Lord, the dead in Christ rising first, and those which are alive and remain being caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air.

Directly from that thought and using a conjunction word to join and continue the thought, Paul says: "((But)) of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you"

The thought continues as he says in verse 2:

"For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night."

Paul has written about one continual thought from ch 4:15 to the present verse of speaking about: "the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night"

Paul has not seperated the "day of the Lord" from what was spoken of at the end of chapter 4, they are both being included as the same event.

The exhortation is being given to believers so that they do : "not sleep, as do others; but let us watch and be sober."

What if believers refuse to head to the exortation ?

"...I think about 90% of believers, born again believers, and perahps most of you,,, believe that Jesus Christ will come 7 years before,,,,,or as soon as the tribulation starts and secretly rapture the church.
I believed it too,,, as a young Christian,,. because I was taught that.
But as I studied the Scriptures carefully, honestly. I discovered it's not true.
I searched the Scriptures, the New Testament,, I could not find one verse. I studied it for 50 years,,, not one verse that taught that.
I discovered that it was a teaching of man,,that arose in England about 150 years ago,,.
No buddy believes it in the persecuted countries like China,,, or in the old communist countries,, nobody would believe it.
It arose in countries that never experienced persecution for centuries. And it is a very comfortable doctrine...." - Zac Poonen

You wrote,

"1 Thessalonians chapter five. Of all Paul’s letters this one deals more fully with the Lord’s return than any other letter. In thinking of the time in which we live and the growing emphasis on the end of the age, we have to remember that the balance, indeed the foundation for understanding the end of the age is not principally an understanding of the coming of the Man of Sin, but it is rather the hidden nature of the Lord’s return, proceeding the visibility of the Man of Sin. Only at the moment of his judgement and the judgement of the false prophet, will all men see Him [Christ] coming as the veil of the cloud is removed."

Me: You speak of the hidden nature of the Lord's return proceeding the visibility of the Man of Sin. So I'm assuming you believe there will be a pre-trib rapture of the Church before the Man of Sin appears.

You also wrote,

"But immediately after the tribulation of those days THE SUN WILL BE DARKENED, AND THE MOON WILL NOT GIVE ITS LIGHT, AND THE STARS WILL FALL from the sky, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. And then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the SON OF MAN COMING ON THE CLOUDS OF THE SKY with power and great glory. And He will send forth His angels with A GREAT TRUMPET and THEY WILL GATHER TOGETHER His   elect from the four winds, from one end of the sky to the other. Matthew 24:29-31."

“But we do not want you to be uninformed, brethren, about those who are asleep, so that you will not grieve as do the rest who have no hope. For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who have fallen asleep in Jesus. For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we, who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep. For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a  shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we shall always be with the Lord. Therefore comfort one another with these words.” 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18

"Although these two passages of Scripture both speak about the Lord’s return there is one profound distinction between them. The one is the Lord in the clouds which therefore cannot be visible and the other is The Lord on the clouds which cannot be but visible."

Me: So there will be a great trumpet that will sound and a resounding shout of the archangel that will occur but yet this coming of I Thessalonians 4:13-18 will not be visible otherwise? I'm not trying to be a burr but it seems a bit of a stretch to say that this supposed coming will not be visible because the clouds of the air will cover and conceal Christ. And before the 1830s, where in church history was the rapture of the believing Church determined to be a separate event from the second coming? Where was it determined one was to be a "coming" for His church that would not be visible and then the second coming would be His "appearance" which would be visible to all? Out of all the studying and praying that went on over the centuries, why was this hidden rapture that is to occur before the second coming not seen or understood by other scholars of the word over the centuries? I'm not a know it all but and I know this question seems at times to annoy brethren in the pre-trib camp but in my opinion it's a very legitimate question to ask.

And what of those saved during the tribulation? If to be saved and washed by the blood of Christ is to be delivered from the wrath of God then why will they have to continue in the tribulation since to even be in the tribulation is said to be expereincing the wrath of God? If they are saved shouldn't they automatically be removed from the tribulation since because of their salvation they are no longer subject to the wrath of God (Romans 5:9)? Since they are no longer destined for wrath why will they have to endure the tribulation when those before them not subject to wrath were removed?

The main point though is I Thessalonians 4:13-18 is thought of as describing the pre-tribulation rapture when the dead saints are resurrected and along with the living saints are translated and glorified. Paul makes mention of this in I Cor 15:51-55.

51 - Behold, I tell you a mystery; we shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,

52 - in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet; for the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we shall all be changed.

53 - For this perishable must put on the imperishable, and thi mortal must put on immortality.

54 - But when this perishable will have put on the imperishable, and this mortal wll have put on immortality, then will come about the saying that is written, "Death is swallowed up in victory.

55 - "O death, where is your victory? O death, where is your sting? (I Cor 15:51-55)

Yet in verse 54 why does Paul use a reference from Isaiah 25:8 in the same context of the translation of the saints? The passage from Isaiah,

6 - And the Lord of hosts will prepare a lavish banquet for all peoples on this mountain; a banquet of aged wine, choice pieces with marrow, and refined aged wine.

7 - And on this mountain He will swallow up the covering wghich is over all peoples, even the veil which is stretched over all nations.

8 - He will swallow up death for all time, and the Lord God will wipe tears away from all faces, and He will remove the reproach of His people from all the earth; For the Lord has spoken. (Isaiah 25:6-8)

Isaiah chapters 24-27 have been described as Isaiah's "mini acocalypse." In encapsulated form these chapters contain the judgment of God on the nations, the earth reeling, God's protection and the final eschaological deliverance of Israel. In these chapters the resurrection of Israel's righteous is covered when corpses shall rise and those who lie in the dust shall awake (Isaiah 26:19) and this is when the Lord will swallow up death for all time (Isaiah 25:8). Paul uses this passage from Isaiah and quotes directly from it when he is speaking of the translation of the saints in I Cor 15:51-55. Since the resurrection of Israel's righteous occurs at the last day at the end of the age and coincides with the second coming of Christ then it's safe to assume on sound exegetical grounds that the translation of the Christian saints occurs at the same time. I Thess 4:13-18 therefore concerns the resurrection of the saints and their glorification and translation ("in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, we shall all be changed") along with the living saints.

Why is Paul's reference to Isaiah 25:8 and Hosea 13:14 usually left out of discussions concerning the timing of the rapture? Especially Paul's reference to Isaiah 25:8 which coincides with Israel's final deliverance at the end of the age. In I Cor 15:51-55 Paul places the translation of the Christian saints of the Church at the same time as Isaiah 25:8 occuring - at the end of the age and not seven or three and a half years before. THEN (verse 15:54) is when the saying will come about that death has been swallowed up in victory. When is the THEN? When Israel's righteous dead and the Christian saints are raised and translated together.

(Job 19:25-26; Isa 26:19, 20; Dan 12:1-2; Jn 6:39-40, 44,54; 11:24; 12:48) These scriptures show Israel's dead being raised at the last day. Paul undoubetdly connected the raising and translation of the Christian saints at the same time thereby eliminating any thought or notion of a two phased seond coming.

Blessings to you and I'm praying my spirit and attitudes are correct. Thank you.

Quote docs "And what of those saved during the tribulation? If to be saved and washed by the blood of Christ is to be delivered from the wrath of God then why will they have to continue in the tribulation since to even be in the tribulation is said to be expereincing the wrath of God? If they are saved shouldn't they automatically be removed from the tribulation since because of their salvation they are no longer subject to the wrath of God (Romans 5:9)? Since they are no longer destined for wrath why will they have to endure the tribulation when those before them not subject to wrath were removed?"

Do you realize all the saints are killed by antichrist?

"Beliefs Accompanying the Pre-Tribulational View"

HMMMMM,would it not be enlightening to find out what the scriptures say VS what some brethren 100 years ago thought or believed?

No offence but this seems a little desperate.

Thank you amrkelly for the great wisdom and careful consideration I read between the lines of your postings.

Sometimes there is no substitute for the passing of years to help make ones thinking clear and free from the clutter that comes in when we are young and know everything. Why must wine languish in a dark barrel at 65 degrees for 6 or more years before it can be savored at its flavor peak? It was wet when it went into the barrel, and it is wet coming out. But it is not the same.

Oh I have been there with the pre-trib rapture. My grandfather was an old school Presbyterian minister who just knew he was going up before he died, and he held out to 102. Stubborn cuss...

Some years ago, as the wine of my life began to change in the dark barrel, I realized that my pursuit of end-time knowledge was purely that. I wanted details, to know the event sequences, to know the identities of the symbols and the players. I had some notebooks filled with elaborate schematics, but nothing valuable in my heart.

It began to dawn on me that I was not to seek knowledge, but Jesus. And I came to believe that the end times, like everything else, are based on the relationship. The old "Seek ye first the kingdom of God..."

Those who believe in religion seek knowledge, but those who seek Christ long for His presence and delight in His service. They don't feel any need to escape a corrupt world, but to live above its grasp in a relationship with a real live Jesus.

All of which, since I cannot know the details of how God will bring in His Kingdom, leads me to a simple principle for examining these ideas.

Any doctrine where the primary appeal is to the flesh is immediately suspect. Pre-trip rapture sits on the top of that list. Flying away does sound like fun, but being a useful witness in the cauldron of human suffering is what Jesus would do, and did.

He remains my mentor and example.

You wrote,

"Do you realize all the saints are killed by antichrist"?

I'm not sure the Bible ever speaks of every single saint being killed during the tribulation.

21 - for then there will be a great tribulation, such as has not occurred since the beginning of the world until now, nor ever shall.

22 - "And unless those days had been cut short, no life would be saved; but for the sake of the elect those days shall be cut short. (Matt hew 24:21-22).

Unless those days had been cut short no life would be saved means that some life will be saved. And the days are cut short for the sake of the elect so this is a strong hint some of the elect will survive the tribulation period. Many won't but at least some will even if a small remnant.

32 - And it will come about that whoiever calls upon the name of the Lord will be delivered; for on Mount Zion and in Jerusalem there will be those who escape, as the Lord has said, even among the survivors whom the Lord calls. (Joel 2:32)

Joel paints a eschatological picture here and states some will escape and some will survive - (those who "escape" and even among the "survivors") so at least some of the saints will make it through.

Besides, some will have to be alive at the time of the second coming after the tribulation because the Scriptures state, "we who are "alive" and remain until the coming of the Lord" (I Thess 4:15). And then we who are "alive" and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds...(I Thess 4:17). Living saints will have to be present for this to be fulfilled at the second coming. So some ot even many will likely survive although the number of their brethren killed or martyred will be many.

I appreciate your thoughts and comments. I must admit thiough that I am confused on some points you have shared. I may have misread or misinterpreted some of your earlier statemnts when you first replied to me. If I have done this it won't be the first time. But the things is right now is that I'm out of time and have a full work week ahead of me and need to get about resting. I'd like to stay and write but I just can't now. But I'll get back to you and again thanks for your time and meanwhile I'll be mulling over what you have shared.

Thank you Andrew for clarifying things a little, especially on the subject of Rev 11.

As the witnesses were killed at the end of their 42 month time of testimony, which you say will be a time of repentance before The Great tribulation, (which is a further three and a half years), Do you accept that their is, in total, a full seven years from the initial pseudo peaceful rise of the Antichrist until the Return of Christ to the earth; and does this not conform to dispensational teaching on Daniels last week?

I know, a complicated question

Your brother in Him

David

question for postrib.

Since the church in china is the final authority on the scripture,and since you base your beliefs,not on the bible,but the Chinese church's infallibility,what protection do you have that this assembly will always lead you into truth?

Secondly,what degree of persecution would be necessary for another authority to preside over the Chinese?

Is this not some weird method of scripture interpretation?

"I'm not sure the Bible ever speaks of every single saint being killed during the tribulation."

In fact,the antichist's job is just that.And he is even given power to accomplish it.
Revelation 13:7
And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.

Look at what must be brushed aside to adhere to the postrib doctrine.

The marriage supper in heaven
All the escape scriptures
The invitation at the last supper to the one in heaven
The white horses
The consummation in heaven (rev 19)
The parable of the 10 virgins
The testimony of the martyrs
The privilege of riding in the army from heaven.
The promise of mansions in heaven
The hope of his coming
The myriad of scriptures that attest to the coming of the groom for his bride.

How does postrib reconcile the vast testimony of the heavenly scene,when they teach that the raptured ones do a u turn in the air,and never reach heaven?

I'm sorry I haven't gotten back to you before now. I figured it would likely be a bit before I got back to you again but it's just me being busy and mainly work and its responsibilities that kept me away. It wasn't for lack of interest and I have refreshed myself a bit on some of our former discussion.

I had written,

"I appreciate your thoughts and comments. I must admit though that I am confused on some points you have shared. I may have misread or misinterpreted some of your earlier statemnts when you first replied to me. If I have done this it won't be the first time. But the things is right now is that I'm out of time and have a full work week ahead of me and need to get about resting. I'd like to stay and write but I just can't now. But I'll get back to you and again thanks for your time and meanwhile I'll be mulling over what you have shared. docs"

And you had replied and wrote,

"No brother I think my posts are a little confusing and definitely misleading in a sense. I realise this clearly because there can be no getting away from the earlier posts I made which assert that the clouds are become a cover to the Lord's return in the first instance. This is classic pre tribulation teaching. In making this latter post where I say that "[w]ith regard to the actual meaning of “in the clouds” it is no more than understanding that Christ is coming back to mount Zion" it would appear that I am trivialising the assertion about clouds. The reality in my thinking was a matter of obedience in writing about Mount Zion, and then having been obedient, of necessity I would have to say something about the mountain being in the clouds. At the back of all of this lies one single idea or reality. God is not far from any one of us, He is right at hand. In Him we live and move and have our being. When we speak of a place in which God moves, as opposed to all things being in Him, we have gone from His presence to speak of His omnipotence in an instant. the Father and the Son are both of these things. We are in the Father and the Son and yet we can know the Father in His presence and the Son by His presence."

"The Lord's return is of this order of events. It is in the end a physical visible reality. Yet it is preceded by a physical and invisible reality. It is a feast become a flight into a kingdom of nations. It is a veil which makes something hidden and a veil removed which is the meaning of visibility. It is the Father's House and the Kingdom of His Son. It is Mount Zion and it is the earth. It is in the clouds and it is on the clouds."

"To answer your question about my being one who believes that the church is appointed to being removed before the tribulation. I can say plainly that I do in fact believe in two raptures. One before the Great Tribulation, and one when the veil is removed. I also believe (like the post apostolic Fathers) that the real and only meaningful tribulation when speaking about the end of this age is the only one spoken of in Revelation. It is a mystery and it is unfathomable by ordinary comprehension as though the natural mind could grope to find it's meaning. The following verses represent a tribulation for some saints yet this is just the beginning of the end."

Me: I know of the 42 months and their eschatological significance that you mentioned. I think I did get confused as to whether you were a pre-trib believer or not. You seemed to speak of a hidden rapture covered by the clouds and also seemed to speak of a rapture open and visible to all which I assume you meant to be the event of the second coming. That seemed to me to be classic pre-trib because this view advocates that Christ's "coming" will be when when He comes to rapture His Church before the tribulation (He "comes" for His own) and will be hidden and His "appearing" will be at His second coming which will be visible and seen. Yet you also state above that you believe in two raptures, one before the Great Tribulation and one when the veil is removed (at the second coming I presume). Since you believe in a rapture before the Great Tribulation isn't this a pre-trib position also except with some modifications? I need to define myself also by stating that you are the first person I have ever discussed this with who believes in a rapture three and a half years or so into the last seven years if that is a correct designation of what you believe. Why do you place a rapture there at that point in the sequence of events?

Also, if saints are bodily resurrected and translated and glorifed at this rapture and later saints are resurrected and translated at the second coming wouldn't that fact make the "first" resurrection of Rev 20:5 actually the "second" resurrection? My reasoning is that if saints are resurrected at the early rapture before the Great Tribulation you speak of and are resurrected at the second coming then the first resurrection of Rev 20:5 actually becomes the second resurrection and the proper scriptural sequence is broken.

I see the Church vividly portrayed in Revelation and the events of the end.

13 - And one of the elders answered, saying to me, "These who are clothed in white robes, who are they, and from where have they come?"

14 - And I said to him, "My lord, you know." And he said to me, "These are the ones who have come out of the great tribulation, and they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. (Rev 7:13-14)

If one has washed their robes white in the blood of the Lamb I've been taught that makes them part of the Church of the living God and of Jesus Christ the Messiah.

10 - Ands I heard a loud voice in heaven, saying, "Now the salvation, and the power, and the kingdom of our God and the authority of His Christ have come, for the accuser of or brethren has been thrown down, who accuses them before our God day and night.

11 - "And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb and because of the word of their testimony, and they did not love their life even to death. (Rev 12:10-11)

We know who the accuser is accuser is and when he is thrown down is when I believe the final three and a half years begin to occur. It doesn't speak though of God's people being removed at this point. It rather speaks of them overcoming by the blood of the Lamb and the word of their testimony and they don't love their own life even unto death. Who else of the whole earth overcomes the accuser by the blood of the Lamb but the Church? Who else but the Church even knows of the redeeming value of the blood of the Lamb? Who else on earth overcomes by the word of their testimony except the Church?

16 - And the earth helped the woman, and the earth opened its mouth and drank up the river which the dragon poured out of his mouth.

17 And the dragon was enraged with the woman, and went off to make war with the rest of her offspring, who keep the commandments of God and hold to the testimony of Jesus. (Rev 12:16-17)

Who else keeps the commandments of God and holds to the testimony of Jesus but the Church? Why would God rapture the Church at the beginning of the seven years or halfway through the seven years only to immediatley begin raising up the Chruch again on earth? Who are these folks if they are not the Church?

That brings me to part of my original thoughts regarding beliefs accompanying the pre-trib rapture view. In many quarters advocates of the pre-trib view teach that those who are saved after the pre- trib rapture do not become part of the Church? Believers in the Great Tribulation are seen as,

- having washed their robes white in the blood of the Lamb
- overcoming by the blood of the Lamb
- overcoming by the word of their testimony
- loving not their life even unto death
- holding to the commandments of God
- holding to the testimony of Jesus

Yet part of the pre-trib teaching is these do not become part of the Church but are part of redeemed Israel which is a separate and distinct entity from the Church in God's plan of salvation. I wonder where this was ever taught in Church history before the 1830s? If having your robe washed white in the blood of the Lamb and all the rest doesn't make one part of the Church then what does is my question. What hope will a beleagured Israel during the Tribulation have but to become part of the Church by placing their faith in Christ? Why would God rapture His church before the Tribulation only to immediately begin raising up the Church again but yet designating that those saved during the Tribulation after the rapture are not even part of the Church at all? So along with questioning the pre-trib view itself, I've come to believe that some of the belifs accompanying the popular pre-trib view may need another looking at also. How many that advocate the pre-trib view know of the beliefs that often accompany this particular view?

Well, I've said a lot and probably too much. I guess my questions might be boiled down to,

- Isn't a belief in two raptures, one before the Great Tribulation, in essence a belief in a pre-trib rapture since one is to occur before the Great Tribulation?

- Whether at the beginning of seven years or halfway through, if saints are resurrected at a pre-trib rapture doesn't this in actuality make the "first" resurection of Rev 20:5 (to take place at the second coming) the second resurrection?

- Why would God remove His Church in a pre-trib rapture only to immediately begin forming the Church on earth again?

- Do you believe those saved after the rapture during the Great Tribulation will become part of the Church or will be part of a separate and distinct salvific entity known as redeemed Israel?

I understand what you spoke of regarding the 42 months. I know of their siginificance in regards to eschatology. If I could of said anything different please bear with me because it wasn't intentional. I appreciate your attitude that condescension and mockery toward others on this subject is not needed or useful. If I find the time perhaps I can say more on Isaiah 25:8 etc. I'm in no hurry for any reply you might be inclined to offer and if I have overloaded the plate just let me know.

Blessings to you and thank you again.

Who are the Body of Christ, His Church?

Those that are born again of the Spirit of Christ in them, The Holy Spirit being our Teacher of this truth.

The difference is "in them", not with them. At the rapture of 1 Thess 4, these are those that have Christ in them. At His second coming, these are those that are with Him, of whom He and His Church will rule over for 1000 years. There are many raptures, When Christ came out of the tomb, who are those that came out of the graves and walked in the city? They were not born again, for Pentecost had not come yet. All but the body of Christ His Church have Christ with them. These are servants of God, not friends and sons' of God, who have The Christ Seed in them. All will serve and worship God, but all are not sons'.

There is a difference in those that live in the Father's House and those that must partake of the water of life that proceeds out of the Temple.

Christ in you the hope of Glory is the difference in raptures. One as to son's of God, the other "God's people", Which is Israel of whom God will deal with at the second coming to the earth and His throne.

The difference is in the Seed. 1 Peter 1:18-25 Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers; But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot: Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you, Who by him do believe in God, that raised him up from the dead, and gave him glory; that your faith and hope might be in God. Seeing ye have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit unto unfeigned love of the brethren, see that ye love one another with a pure heart fervently: Being born again, (((((not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible,))))) by the Word (logos)of God, which liveth and abideth for ever. For all flesh is as grass, and all the glory of man as the flower of grass. The grass withereth, and the flower thereof falleth away: But the word of the Lord endureth for ever. And this is the word which by the gospel is preached unto you.

The Word of God; John 1:1-4 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. The same was in the beginning with God. All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made. In him was life; and the life was the light of men.

Who are the Born of God? Not the world, but those that God has given the Son, and has birthed in them the Living Word Himself.

John 1:10-13 He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not. He came unto his own, and his own received him not. But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

This receiving is not of man but of God by Grace giving reception to those that are given Christ Seed birthed in them, which is Christ's reward and The First in His body the Church whom He will bring into the Father's House, those the Father has given Him. We that are the incorruptible Seeds of the Father, by the Seed of Christ in us.

Without understanding the "mystery": of Paul and separating sons' from the people of God the parousia or eschatology
of The end times are impossible to understand.
The Gospel mystery hidden from all until Paul revealed it, "Christ in you the Hope of Glory", cannot be co-mingled together with the chosen people of God and come up with the truth of the end times.

These are the raptured Church of Christ, His Seed,
His Body, His brothers and sisters by birth, fellow heirs with Christ.

Edited for content;

In Christ: Phillip

Thank you for your comments and the time you took to do so.

Regarding the many raptures you speak of in your first paragraph. Those who came out of the tombs when Christ was raised were not raptured. They were resurrected but not translated, changed and glorified (I Cor 15:50-55) as will happen to all who believe in Christ at His coming.

Regarding the rest of your comments I think I know what you are saying or at least have an idea. I could be wrong and am open to correction if I am but what I think I hear you saying is:

You wrote,

"The difference is "in them", not with them. At the rapture of 1 Thess 4, these are those that have Christ in them. At His second coming, these are those that are with Him, of whom He and His Church will rule over for 1000 years."

Me: I'm not quite sure who you refer to when you say, "At His second coming, these are those that are with Him,..." Do you mean just people who will be on earth or do you mean those who came to faith in Christ during the final Tribulation? Are you saying that,

- Believers in Christ before the pre-trib rapture have Christ "in" them while believers who come to faith after this rapture will only have Christ "with" them versus dwelling within them.

You wrote,

"Christ in you the hope of Glory is the difference in raptures. One as to son's of God, the other "God's people", Which is Israel of whom God will deal with at the second coming to the earth and His throne."

Me: But after the pre-trib rapture, what of those of Israel saved during the Tribulation before Christ's second coming to the earth? Do you believe Christ will be "in" them because of their salvation or only "with" them?

You wrote,

"Without understanding the "mystery": of Paul and separating sons' from the people of God the parousia or eschatology of the end times are impossible to understand.
The Gospel mystery hidden from all until Paul revealed it, "Christ in you the Hope of Glory", cannot be co-mingled together with the chosen people of God and come up with the truth of the end times."

Me: If I'm understanding you your statements are saying that the truth of the end and eschatology cannot be understood without realizing that God's "chosen people" Israel will never sattain unto the stature of sons and friends of God as the Church is privilege to now. You're saying that "Christ in you the Hope of Glory" by the indwelling Holy Spirit cannot be co-mingled with or part of Israel after Christ returns. Meanwhile, I'm still wondering about those of Israel saved after the pre-trib rapture and before Christ's second coming. Do you believe that they won't have the privilege of Christ "in" them but will only have Christ "with" them?

I did the best I could with your statements. I'm wanting to hear if I didn't understood you properly because I want to get it right.

I suppose my main question is whether you believe those saved during the Tribulation will have Christ within them as the Church did at Pentecost - "And they were all filled with the Holy Spirit" (Acts 2:4) I know that one of the beliefs accompanying pretribulationism is that those Jews or Gentiles saved during the final Tribulation will be saved but not indwelt by the Holy Spirit. I don't believe that myself so readers will know but I know it is a common belief following the pre-trib view.

Thank you.

Quote:

""""Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; BUT HE THAT DOETH THE WILL OF MY FATHER which is in heaven." Matt 7:21

What is the will of our Father which is in heaven?
It is that we would know by Faith that Jesus Christ liveth in us, for it is not us who live to the Father anymore. ""Galatians 2:20-21 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me. I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.

We now live by the faith of the Son of God, by the life of Christ that liveth in us. It is no longer I who live but Christ who liveth in me. By this life I can accomplish the scriptures you have presented.

“WHEREFORE BE YE NOT UNWISE, BUT UNDERSTANDING WHAT THE WILL OF THE LORD IS,” Ephesians 5:17.

“As the servants of Christ, DOING THE WILL OF GOD FROM THE HEART.” Ephesians 6:6.

“JESUS SAITH UNTO THEM, MY MEAT IS TO DO THE WILL OF HIM THAT SENT ME, AND TO FINISH HIS WORK.

"And the world passeth away, and the lust thereof: BUT HE THAT DOETH THE WILL OF GOD ABIDETH FOREVER" 1 John 2:17"""

All these are the fruit of the incorruptible Seed of Christ being birthed in the believer, whom God has given to Jesus Christ as His Body the Church, The Father's Born again sons'. They could not attain to the scripture above without being Born Again of the incorruptible Seed of God, which is the Living Word Himself, Jesus Christ and the Holy Spirit gifted in them forever.

In Christ: Phillip

Quote: '""Regarding the many raptures you speak of in your first paragraph. Those who came out of the tombs when Christ was raised were not raptured. They were resurrected but not translated, changed and glorified (I Cor 15:50-55) as will happen to all who believe in Christ at His coming."""

Where did they go? Die again and back into the grave? I believe that they are with Christ and when He comes for His Church, pre tribulation, they will be with Him. Seems like to me that is a rapture.

Quote: """Me: I'm not quite sure who you refer to when you say, "At His second coming, these are those that are with Him,..." Do you mean just people who will be on earth or do you mean those who came to faith in Christ during the final Tribulation? Are you saying that,

- Believers in Christ before the pre-trib rapture have Christ "in" them while believers who come to faith after this rapture will only have Christ "with" them versus dwelling within them."""

If those saved in the tribulation come out of the grave, resurrected, They will not be sitting in the heavenlies in Christ, they will be with Him on this earth again as when He came for His own and they received Him not. Those that receive Him on earth, will God put His Word in their hearts, etc.

Quote: """I suppose my main question is whether you believe those saved during the Tribulation will have Christ within them as the Church did at Pentecost """

Only if there is a 2nd Pentecost. The coming of Jesus Christ for His Church, together they leave and the Holy Spirit also.
Why a rod of Iron to rule? What salvation will this bring to the earth? Is Christ ruling in our hearts with a rod of Iron?

Colossians 3:14-15 And above all these things put on charity, which is the bond of perfectness. And let the peace of God rule in your hearts, to the which also ye are called in one body; and be ye thankful.

In Christ: Phillip

Thank you Phillip for your posts.
"Docs" asked:
"I suppose my main question is whether you believe those saved during the Tribulation will have Christ within them as the Church did at Pentecost "
And you replied:
"Only if there is a second Pentecost".
As this thread concerns "Beliefs accompanying the pre trib view", I can say that I believe that there will be another Pentecost after the Lord's coming, and the scriptures confirm this.
The day of Pentecost spoken of in Acts chap 2 was a glorious outpouring by the Father of the precious Holy Spirit for the bringing to birth the church of Christ and for me.
But the outpouring of the Holy Spirit, prophesied by Joel (Joel ch 2), and refered to by Peter, only had a part fulfillment in those days. The sun was not darkened or the moon turned to blood v31. There was indeed spiritual "blood and fire"v30, but the final fulfillment is reserved for the time of Christ' s reign in mount Zion and Jerusalem v32, when Jehovah shall be " in the midst of Israel" v27.
The whole time, from the coming of Christ to Zion to deliver His remnant, until the pouring out of the Holy Spirit is below:
(Joe 2:21) Fear not, O land; be glad and rejoice: for the LORD will do great things.
(Joe 2:22) Be not afraid, ye beasts of the field: for the pastures of the wilderness do spring, for the tree beareth her fruit, the fig tree and the vine do yield their strength.
(Joe 2:23) Be glad then, ye children of Zion, and rejoice in the LORD your God: for he hath given you the former rain moderately, and he will cause to come down for you the rain, the former rain, and the latter rain in the first month.
(Joe 2:24) And the floors shall be full of wheat, and the fats shall overflow with wine and oil.
(Joe 2:25) And I will restore to you the years that the locust hath eaten, the cankerworm, and the caterpiller, and the palmerworm, my great army which I sent among you.
(Joe 2:26) And ye shall eat in plenty, and be satisfied, and praise the name of the LORD your God, that hath dealt wondrously with you: and my people shall never be ashamed.
(Joe 2:27) And ye shall know that I am in the midst of Israel, and that I am the LORD your God, and none else: and my people shall never be ashamed.

(Joe 2:28) And it shall come to pass afterward, that I will pour out my spirit upon all flesh; and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, your old men shall dream dreams, your young men shall see visions:
(Joe 2:29) And also upon the servants and upon the handmaids in those days will I pour out my spirit.
(Joe 2:30) And I will shew wonders in the heavens and in the earth, blood, and fire, and pillars of smoke.
(Joe 2:31) The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and the terrible day of the LORD come.
(Joe 2:32) And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the LORD shall be delivered: for in mount Zion and in Jerusalem shall be deliverance, as the LORD hath said, and in the remnant whom the LORD shall call.

In verse 23, He promises all the rains in the first month in order to restore the land after the locust armies He had sent during the trumpet judgements. They will eat and be satisfied and praise the name of Jehovah v26. He will be in their midst, and Israel, the children of Zion, will not be ashamed. v27.

And it shall come to pass that afterwards, The Spirit will be poured out on all flesh v 28. A second Pentecost, or the full fulfillment of the prophesy?

Daniel chap 12 v 11 also shows this same 30 day (in the first month) period until all the effects of the abomination of desolation are removed. And also a further 45 days. BLESSED is he that waiteth and cometh to the 1335 days.

This is my understanding of these scriptures and I am not asking all brethren to accept what I believe, but just to read the scriptures and understand for themselves.

David

Formerly I wrote,

"Regarding the many raptures you speak of in your first paragraph. Those who came out of the tombs when Christ was raised were not raptured. They were resurrected but not translated, changed and glorified (I Cor 15:50-55) as will happen to all who believe in Christ at His coming."""

You replied,

Where did they go? Die again and back into the grave? I believe that they are with Christ and when He comes for His Church, pre tribulation, they will be with Him. Seems like to me that is a rapture.

Me: Well, these things may be true but it would be only speculation at this point as to whether or not they were translated and glorified according to I Cor 15:50-55 which is commonly associated with the rapture. Lazarus came forth from the grave after being resurrected and there is no record of Him being changed and glorified.

I asked,

"I'm not quite sure who you refer to when you say, "At His second coming, these are those that are with Him,..." Do you mean just people who will be on earth or do you mean those who came to faith in Christ during the final Tribulation? Are you saying that,"

- Believers in Christ before the pre-trib rapture have Christ "in" them while believers who come to faith after this rapture will only have Christ "with" them versus dwelling within them."

You replied,

"If those saved in the tribulation come out of the grave, resurrected, They will not be sitting in the heavenlies in Christ, they will be with Him on this earth again as when He came for His own and they received Him not. Those that receive Him on earth, will God put His Word in their hearts, etc."

Me: So because they were saved during the Tribulation and not before the pre-trib rapture they will not be able to partake of the same privileges of salvation as those in the Church? Why do pre-trib rapture advocates see such a dividing line for those saved before it and those saved after it?

I asked,

"I suppose my main question is whether you believe those saved during the Tribulation will have Christ within them as the Church did at Pentecost?'

You replied,

Only if there is a 2nd Pentecost. The coming of Jesus Christ for His Church, together they leave and the Holy Spirit also.

Me: How is it possible then for those saved during the Tribulation to really and truly be saved if they are not going to have the Holy Spirit dwelling within them? Would you consider yourselves saved if the Holy Spirit was not within you? This seems to be putting a whole new spin on salvation that was not heard of or likely even thought of before the 1830s. And where was it ever determined before then that a pre-tribulation rapture of the Church would nullify and cancel Pentecost for those who were saved after it? Is it even possible to be inwardly regenerated and born again without the indwelling Spirit? Where have those who study and research soteriology (the results and effects of salvation) ever advocated that throughout Church history? If these things be true then Tribulation believers seems to be destined for a second class second tier type of salvation. Pentecost and the Holy Spirit coming to dwell with is also based on the fact that Christ is at the right hand of God.

33 - "Therefore having been exalted to the right hand of God, and having received from the Farther the promise of the Holly Spirit, He has poured forth this which you both see and hear." (Acts 2:33)

If the rapture cancels and brings about a reversal of Pentecost because the Holy Spirt is to leave the earth at this event does it in any way effect or change the ministry of Christ seated at the right hand of God where He pours forth the Holy Spirit to those who believe in Him? It seems a legitimate question.

The Tribulation is seen to be perhaps the greatest time of soul winning and harvest the Church has ever been a part of. I know it is just my opinion but it seems a stretch to say yes many will be saved during this time but the Holy Spirit will not be present to dwell within them. Such a reversal of Pentecost is also accompanied by the presumption and altogether new take on salvation never seen before that one can be saved and inwardly regenrated without the Spirit within. As I said it seems a second class second tier type of salvation if Christ in you the Hope of Glory is not part of the hope of Tribulation believers.

Thanks I hope and blessings to God's Church.

John 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

Why is the Holy Spirit here now? To convict the world of sin and to indwell and reveal Jesus Christ in the believer.

If Christ is Here on His throne and we the Church are with Him, Where is the Holy Spirit? He is in the raptured Church, The Body of Christ, "He will be in you forever", not with you.

John 16:7-8 Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you. And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:

Just reverse this; If Christ is with those when He appears on this earth and is seen by all and He still has the power to raise the dead as He did before the Cross, I am sure He still can proclaim "come forth". "Death is swallowed up in victory". These are those that are clothed in white garments washed in the Blood of the Lamb.

There is no need for the Holy Spirit to indwell believers on earth, if Jesus Christ Himself is here physically, He will reprove the World, He is righteousness, and He most certainly is the Judge. His blood is still the most powerful to bring forth salvation for those that are on this earth in the tribulation and after. But birthing the incorruptible Seed of the Father in the believers that the Father has given to Christ and are offspring of God are already with Jesus Christ in His and our Father's House. 1 Thess 4, etc.

In Christ: Phillip

You wrote,

Why is the Holy Spirit here now? To convict the world of sin and to indwell and reveal Jesus Christ in the believer.

Me: That is true. So how are people to be saved during the Tribulation going to come under conviction of sin and repent of the Holy Spirit is gone? "For our gospel did not come to you in word only, but also in power and with full conviction; just as you know what kind of men we proved to be amiong you for your sake. (I Thess 1:5) How will this continue if the Holy Spirit is no longer present and activer in convicting sinners and wooing them to Christ?

If the Spirit indwells believers what of the believers after the supposed pre-trib rapture? If Christ wil not indwell then they are to experience a second class type of salvation that changes the very basic foundation of all we have come to know regarding salvation and its inward regenerating effects.

You wrote,

If Christ is Here on His throne and we the Church are with Him, Where is the Holy Spirit? He is in the raptured Church, The Body of Christ, "He will be in you forever", not with you.

Me: I understand "He will be in you forever" but if the Church leaves at a pre-trib rapture how is that supposed to cancel or nullify Pentecost for those who call on the Lord for salvation after that? Joel's famous prophecy of the outpouring of the Spirit and the celestial signs to occur before the second coming ends with, "And it will come about that whoever cals upon the name of the Lord shall be delivered." (Joel 2:32). Peter repeated the passage at Pentecost during his sermon and Peter ended with, "And it shall be, that every one who calls upon the name of the Lord shall be saved" (Acts 2:21). Again, it leads to the question of what type of salvation are those who call upon the name of the Lord to experience if the Spirit will not indwell them? Is it possible to be saved and inwardly regenerated without the Spirit within?

You wrote,

John 16:7-8 Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you. And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:

Me: If the Spirit is to reprove the world of sin when it comes how will it reprove and convict sinners during the Tribulation if it has left the earth? Where did Christ say that It is expedient that He leave and send the Spirit (which came at Pentecost) but seven or three and a half years before the end of the age Pentecost will be cancelled and nullified even though many will believe in my name after it is cancelled?

You wrote,

Just reverse this; If Christ is with those when He appears on this earth and is seen by all and He still has the power to raise the dead as He did before the Cross, I am sure He still can proclaim "come forth". "Death is swallowed up in victory". These are those that are clothed in white garments washed in the Blood of the Lamb.

There is no need for the Holy Spirit to indwell believers on earth, if Jesus Christ Himself is here physically, He will reprove the World, He is righteousness, and He most certainly is the Judge. His blood is still the most powerful to bring forth salvation for those that are on this earth in the tribulation and after. But birthing the incorruptible Seed of the Father in the believers that the Father has given to Christ and are offspring of God are already with Jesus Christ in His and our Father's House. 1 Thess 4, etc.

Me: Ezekiel speaks of Israel after the seond coming,

27 - And I will put My Spirit within you and cause you to walk in My statues, and you will be careful to observe My ordinances.

28 - And you will live in the land that I gave to your forefathers; so you will be My people, and I will be your God. (Ezekiel 36:27-28)

That's a picture of a redeemed Spirit indwelt Israel who has the Spirit within ("I will put My Spirit "within you")

And,

29 - "And I will not hide My face from them any longer, for I shall have poured out My Spirit on the house of Israel," declares the Lord God. (Ezekiel 39:29)

So even with Christ physically present after the second coming there seems to be a age portrayed where the Spirit still dwells within believers.

What Scriptures can pre-tribulation believers who believe in a cancellation of Pentecost point to to show a person can be inwardly born again and saved ('whoever calls upon the name of the Lord shall be saved") without the indwelling Spirit? Where are the Scriptures that can verify this?

Quote: """ How will this continue if the Holy Spirit is no longer present and active in convicting sinners and wooing them to Christ?"""

The same way Abraham was saved, by faith and believing in what God said. Abraham only had the Holy Spirit with him, of which I said will be the action required after and in the tribulation. "indwell the believer" is for when Christ is no longer manifest on this earth". After the Rapture The Spirit of God will be here and it will be up to God to put His Spirit in or be with those who will be saved in those times. How did God woo Abraham? Believe and you will be saved. Did Abraham believe God? Absolutely he did and it was counted to him for righteousness, not that he was righteous, for none is righteous, not one. With Jesus Christ sitting on His throne, salvation will be the same as in the old testament. Even then, will all believe?
But the Body of Christ His Church and His prize, His Bride will be together forever.
Ga 1:4 Who gave himself for our sins, that he might deliver us from this present evil world, according to the will of God and our Father:
Eph 5:27 That he might present it to Himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish.
Revelation 19:9 And he saith unto me, Write, Blessed are they which are called unto the marriage supper of the Lamb. And he saith unto me, These are the true sayings of God.

Revelation 19:11-14 And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war. His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself. And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God. And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.

We must make a choice of who the armies of heaven that followed Him on white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.

The armies which were in heaven - Angels and saints and the Bride, over whom Jesus Christ is Captain and Husband,
Clothed in fine linen - All holy, pure, and righteous, Come to witness the triumph of Christ over evil.

Quote: """Is it possible to be saved and inwardly regenerated without the Spirit within?"""

All things are possible with God. I will leave that up to God. Abrahams righteousness counted to him because he believed God.

Quote: """ What Scriptures can pre-tribulation believers who believe in a cancellation of Pentecost point to to show a person can be inwardly born again and saved ('whoever calls upon the name of the Lord shall be saved") without the indwelling Spirit? Where are the Scriptures that can verify this?"""

Genesis 15:6 And he believed in the LORD; and he counted it to him for righteousness.

Romans 4:5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

Romans 4:16-18 Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all, (As it is written, I have made thee a father of many nations,) before him whom he believed, even God, who quickeneth the dead, and calleth those things which be not as though they were. Who against hope believed in hope, that he might become the father of many nations; according to that which was spoken, So shall thy seed be.

This Abraham did not know, but the Bride of Christ has the witness in themselves, which Is Christ in you the Hope of Glory. Ephesians 5:27 That he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish.
Are all the Bride?

Galatians 3:16 Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ. The Spirit of Christ born again in the believer.

With Christ Himself here, the Holy Spirit is only needed to be with you or what ever God chooses to us for His Glory.

John 16:7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.

What is the opposite? John 16:15-16 All things that the Father hath are mine: therefore said I, that he shall take of mine, and shall shew it unto you. A little while, and ye shall not see me: and again, a little while, and ye shall see me, because I go to the Father.

John 16:33 These things I have spoken unto you, that in me ye might have peace. In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world.

As I said the Holy Spirit is not needed when the Son of God is present and manifest to the World. That does not mean He is gone. He still worketh as it pleases God who works all things for His Glory.

This is what I believe from the Word of God, I do not wish to force anything on anyone that they don't understand of, believe of, from where they are in Christ. I am sure if I am wrong, God will correct me and I will listen. This has already happened many times before, and I repent.

In Christ: Phillip

You wrote,

"I haven't lost sight of your earlier post docs and will answer the points raised as and when I am able to do so."

Me: I appreciate that and please don't knock yourself out doing it. Do so at your convenience and I realize I may have loaded to much into one post. But thanks, I am interested in your thoughts.

I have read parts of that other post about Pentecost and its meaning and will get back to it. I have also read some about midtribulationism in a book by John Walvoord titled, "The Rapture Question." He covers all aspects of the rapture issue and though I don't agree with the book he knows how to write clearly and concisely in presenting his view.

You wrote,

"On the face of it in generality I have come to believe and hold in a good conscience that those who are saved during the tribulation (at least the latter 42 months) have indeed missed any possibility of reigning with Christ in the Kingdom. Precisely how this is true I haven't really fully worked out in my thinking. Though it has to do with a missed opportunity, namely the rapture at the beginning of the 42 months which some call the mid tribulation rapture."

Me: I think I understand this view or point although you say you haven't worked it all out in your thinking. One point I don't understand about the pretribulation view is it is thought that to even be in the tribulation will be to experience the wrath of God and we aren't destined for wrath. Then why shouldn't those who will be saved during the tribulation be immediately taken out of the events since to even be in the tribulation is to experience wrath? If the blood of Christ saves them from wrath why should they have to stay in the cauldron of wrath when others didn't have to stay? But then all these other beliefs are thrown in such as those saved during the tribulation wil not have the Spirit indwell them. And that leads to many of the NT Scriptures regarding Christ within etc. as a result of salvation would be meaningless and non relevant for them. So they would not have the Spirit within and would not even be even be able to take advantage of the entire New Testament. This is not the picture of NT salvation as interpreted by the Church over the centuries. And poor Israel that will have to experience such a Spiritless largely scriptureless second class type of salvation while being destined to never reign with Christ. That is supposed to be Israel's Messianic hope!

Besides many of the beliefs accompanying the pre-trib view, I guess what dismays me most is that the pre-trib view robs the Church of its motivation and willingness to be a friend and help to Israel during the time of Jacob's trouble. I've been around Jewish people and in Jewish synagogues the past few years and I have Jewish friends. In some of the classes I have attended in the synagogue and in the way the Jewish people there spoke of it in open terms it became apparent to me that the Jewish psyche has not forgotten its treatment at the hands of the Church over the centuries. When I heard these things from their own mouths it caused such emotion and grief to tear through my chest that at times I didn't think I would be able to make the rest of the class. It's often been the Church that has stood on the necks of Jews stronger than anyone else. I'm not trying to provoke a reaction of excessive guilt but from a Jewish perspective it likely seems the height of Christian presumption to tell a Jew that during the upcoming time of Israel's worse time of trouble in its history that the Christian Church that often was at the forefront of persecuting Jews will be long gone to heaven and in the process getting married to the God of Israel. Add to that prideful attitudes from the Chruch such as, "You guys had your chance and should have taken it. "In the midst of a description of the career and activities of Antichrist Daniel wrote that, "the people who know their God will display strength and take action and those who have insight among the people will give understanding to the many." (Daniel 11:32-33). That's a prophecy of the Church in my opinion who has a calling to have the proper prophetic insight and understanding of what is occuring and why it is occuring and to point Israel and seeking Gentiles to Christ. Since the days of Christ the Church has always been present while the Lord simultaneously dealt with Israel and so it opens the possibility that the Church will be present during God's simultaneous final dealings with Israel. A prepared Church will be able to meet Israel in the wilderness and give understanding to them why they are in the wilderness. And point them to Christ. If the destinies of Israel and the Church have always been so intertwined then the possibility exists for their merging destinies to take place whole both are present at the end of the age. A prepared Church willing to answer this call will have dealt with and laid aside its own self interests and will not love its own life in my opinion. From my view that point seems one the pre-tribulation belief seems to want to avoid and thereby misses God's high calling for the Church at the end of the age.

Well, thanks again. I finally had some time to write a little this morning. Thanks for your input and thoughts.

Blessings.

I'm sorry I haven't gotten back to you sooner but the way work is going for me I have somewhat limited time to do so.

I had asked,

"How will this continue if the Holy Spirit is no longer present and active in convicting sinners and wooing them to Christ?"

You replied,

The same way Abraham was saved, by faith and believing in what God said. Abraham only had the Holy Spirit with him, of which I said will be the action required after and in the tribulation. "indwell the believer" is for when Christ is no longer manifest on this earth". After the Rapture The Spirit of God will be here and it will be up to God to put His Spirit in or be with those who will be saved in those times. How did God woo Abraham? Believe and you will be saved. Did Abraham believe God? Absolutely he did and it was counted to him for righteousness, not that he was righteous, for none is righteous, not one. With Jesus Christ sitting on His throne, salvation will be the same as in the old testament. Even then, will all believe?

Me: Abraham had his righteousness because of his faith yet he still had to pass through he cross and the blood of Christ to be granted an eternal entrance into the kingdom. He was also the forefather of our faith and was used s a type and example of those who would believe in Christ later. And believing in Christ has always brought the Spirit's indwelling for any New Testament believer.

Not just to me, but to many, it seems a illogical exegetical stretch to advocate that after Christ has come and provided atonement and salvation that salvation will once again return to the way it was in the Old Testament. Since Christ has come there is really no reason at all to even to have to think on or consider this type of anti New Testament belief. Why would it even be a belief since it undoes much of the foundation regarding salvation established by God in Christ?

Regarding the Holy Spirit only being with tribulation believers instead of in them. If this is to be true then what of Peter's statement during his sermon at Pentecost,

37 - Now when they heard this, they were pierced to the heart, and said to Peter and the rest of the apostles, "Brethren, what shall we do?"

38 - And Peter said to them, "Repenet and leat each of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

39 - "For the promise is for you and your children, and for all who are far off, as many as the Lord our God shall call to Himself. " (Acts 2:37-39)

Those in the tribulation will be far off from Pentecost and are certainly among those God will call to Himself and this basic and bare beginnings of the New Testament record regarding salvation and the indwelling of the Spirit is enough to put to rest any idea that the pre-trib rapture is supposed to reverse and nullify the indwelling of the Spirit for believers. Peter didn't offer a scintilla of a statement that this indwelling for believers would cease seven or three and a half years before the return of Christ. Neither did Christ mention any special period of seven or three and a half years before His second coming that He would no longer indwell believers by His Spirit.

You wrote,

But the Body of Christ His Church and His prize, His Bride will be together forever.
Ga 1:4 Who gave himself for our sins, that he might deliver us from this present evil world, according to the will of God and our Father:
Eph 5:27 That he might present it to Himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish.
Revelation 19:9 And he saith unto me, Write, Blessed are they which are called unto the marriage supper of the Lamb. And he saith unto me, These are the true sayings of God.

Revelation 19:11-14 And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war. His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself. And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God. And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.

We must make a choice of who the armies of heaven that followed Him on white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.

The armies which were in heaven - Angels and saints and the Bride, over whom Jesus Christ is Captain and Husband,
Clothed in fine linen - All holy, pure, and righteous, Come to witness the triumph of Christ over evil.

Me: There are other plausible and credible explanations for Rev 19:11-14.

The Armies Which Are In Heaven

"The armies...in heaven" will follow Christ as He descends (Rev 19:14). Some have identified these armies with angelic hosts. However, the white linen worn by the armies has been ascribed to the saints a few verses earlier. It is more natural, then, to assume that the saints are in view here, too. Identifying the armies with the Church, we might reason that the rapture must already have taken place, since the armies are in heaven. But the weakness in such reasoning lies in the equation of the armies with the totality of the Church. Are we to think that the OT saints, not yet resurected, will be excluded from these armies? Where are most of the saints, where is most of the Church, now? In heaven. Either John does not distinguish living Christians because of the preponderating number of deceased saints, or he sees Jesus descending with the disembodied saints just before those on earth have been raptured. In the latter case he means the designation "in heaven" to distinguish the deceased in heaven from saints on earth who have not yet joined the heavenly train. (From "The Church And The Tribulation" - Robert Gundry - copyright 1972 - p 86)

If the marriage supper of the Lamb does not require a pre-tribulational resurrection and rapture of Israel's righteous neither does it require it of the Church. This is where you seemed to have missed my point regarding the timing of Isaiah 25:8 which is the resurrection of Israel's righteous and Paul links the translation of the Christian saints as occuring at the same time in I Cor 15:50-55. Isaiah 25:8 is not about events after the second coming but describe the resurrection of Israel's righteous at the end of the age. Paul shows in I Cor 15 it occurs at the same time as the resurrection and glorification of the living and dead Christian saints.

I asked,

Is it possible to be saved and inwardly regenerated without the Spirit within?"

You wrote,

All things are possible with God. I will leave that up to God. Abrahams righteousness counted to him because he believed God.

Me: As I said before, now that Christ has come and pours out His Spirit upon all and indwells all who believe in Him, why should there even be a question as to whether some type of anti New Testament salvation can occur. It has been left up to the Lord and He settled the matter once and for all.

You wrote,

As I said the Holy Spirit is not needed when the Son of God is present and manifest to the World. That does not mean He is gone. He still worketh as it pleases God who works all things for His Glory.

Me: Why then do Joel's prophecies regarding the outpouring of the Spirit upon all mankind have mainly to do with being fulfilled after the second coming when the remnant of Israel recognizes Christ for who He really is? If there is no need for the Spirit to be present when Christ is present in the world then why is it believed Joel's prophecies regarding the outpouring of the Spirt are to find their most compelte and exhaustive fulfillment after the second coming when Christ is present?

And we read of Israel after the tribulation and second coming,

27 - And I will put My Spirit within you and cause you to walk in My statues, and you will be careful to observe My ordinances.

28 - "And you will live in the land that I gave to your forefathers; so you will be My people and I will be your God. (Ezekiel 36:27-28)

"I will put My Spirit WITHIN YOU" is what sticks out to me. It doesn't say I will put My Spirit WITH YOU. Those with the Spirit within are the Church and this shows the primacy of the Church in God's plan for the salvation of the world. They will have become part of the Church because they will have become true Israel with the Spirit within them.

You also wrote,

This is what I believe from the Word of God, I do not wish to force anything on anyone that they don't understand of, believe of, from where they are in Christ. I am sure if I am wrong, God will correct me and I will listen. This has already happened many times before, and I repent.

Me: I can appreciate that and I will be mindful of it. It's a good attitude and some of the were powerful in my opinion. It's obvious we have disagreements and I have likely said enought to you and will leave it here. Thank you for the time you took to write your comments to me.

You wrote docs;

Quote: """Not just to me, but to many, it seems a illogical exegetical stretch to advocate that after Christ has come and provided atonement and salvation that salvation will once again return to the way it was in the Old Testament. Since Christ has come there is really no reason at all to even to have to think on or consider this type of anti New Testament belief. Why would it even be a belief since it undoes much of the foundation regarding salvation established by God in Christ?"""

"anti New Testament belief?" Is this not where God has left Israel?

Why the 144,000 to evangelize the world. With the presence of Jesus Christ in the New Jerusalem? How is Israel saved?
Was not Israel given the task of presenting God to the whole world and failed?

Why does Jesus rule with a Rod of Iron? Is this the beatitudes which made the Law even stronger in its application.

Psalms 2:9 Thou shalt break them with a rod of iron; thou shalt dash them in pieces like a potter's vessel.

Revelation 2:27 And he shall rule them with a rod of iron; as the vessels of a potter shall they be broken to shivers: even as I received of my Father.

Revelation 12:5 And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne.

Revelation 19:15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.

Does this sound like the wooing of the Holy Spirit?

Jesus Christ is still the Shepherd with the Scepter of Iron.

Revelation 19:16 And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.

Psalms 2:12 Kiss the Son, lest he be angry, and ye perish from the way, when his wrath is kindled but a little. Blessed are all they that put their trust in him.

In Christ: Phillip

You wrote,

"anti New Testament belief?" Is this not where God has left Israel?

Me: I started to leave out the term "anti" because it sounded at least somewhat provocative. I may have even thought I changed it as I was last minute editing but obviously I didn't. I was just trying to get across the point of salvation in Christ withouth the indwelling Spirit doesn't have NT support regarding salvation in Christ.

Sure that is where God left Israel, not all of them, but how does that mean that those of Israel who call upon the name of the Lord to be saved during the Tribulation will not be privilege to the Spirit within because the pre-trib rapture will supposedly cancel and reverse Pentecost?

Paul began his sermon at Pentecost by addressing it to "Men of Judea, and all you who live in Jerusalem." (Acts 2:14).

He continued his address with "Men of Israel, listen to these words..." (Acts 2:22)

He ended his sermon with "Therefore, let all the house of Israel know for certain that God has made Him both Lord and Christ - this Jesus whom you crucified." (Acts 2:36)

The sermon was to those of Israel and the reaction he got was,

37 - Now when they heard this, they were pierced to the heart, and said to Peter and the rest of the apostles, "Brethren, what shall we do."

38 - "And Peter said to them, "Repent, and let each of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit."

39 - "For the promise is for you and your children, and for all who are far off, as many as the Lord our God shall call to Himself." (Acts 2:38-39)

It's hard to see therefore how someone of Israel who realizes during the Tribulation that God has for sure made Jesus both Lord and Christ and proved it by His resurrection from the dead and calls upon Him to be saved will have to do so without any anticipation of the gift of the Holy Spirit being given to him or her as it was to those of Israel at Pentecost. If that would be the case then Peter was not being truthful when he spoke what is recorded in verse 39 above. I know it is said by the pre-trib camp that the age of grace ends at the pre-trib rapture. I propose that Peter's words concerning the gift of the Holy Spirit and those it wil be available to show that it's not possible for the age of grace to end at a pre-trib rapture.

You wrote,

Why the 144,000 to evangelize the world. With the presence of Jesus Christ in the New Jerusalem? How is Israel saved?
Was not Israel given the task of presenting God to the whole world and failed?

Me: There is not a scripture anywhere that designates the 144,000 as evangelists so giving them that distinction can only be conjecture I would think. They may be, it's just that we can't know for sure at this point. But if they are to preach the gospel to Israel during the Tribulation as the teaching states, then how will they do it without the convictinting and drawing power of the Holy Spirit to assist them? Does anyone think these things through? And how can it not be contrary to New Testament teaching to say they will still be saved by faith in Christ and His atoning blood but their salvation will be Spiritless and will be the type of salvation such as occured in the Old Testament. It's perhaps one of the most regressive proposals that has ever come forth from the Chruch regarding those who believe. It stretches all exegetical bounds regarding New Testament soteriology and provides Tribulational Israel with a second class type of salvation which couldn't have and can not be God's desire for Israel.

How is Israel saved? At any time or location they will be saved by placing their faith in Christ and His atoning blood. I know that you know that but there won't be any other way if someone proposes it. There are scriptures that point to the possible reality that there will not be one person in Israel who does not believe (Jer 31:34) and Israel and its descendents will never backslide again (Isaiah 59:21). And when they believe, the Spirt will be within them (Ezekiel 36:27-28) in fulfillment of Jeremiah 31:33 when God's laws are placed within them and written on their heart by the Spirit within. But again, the subject is the Holy Spirit being withdrawn at the pre-trib rapture and those saved afterwards having to do without the gift of the Holy Spirit within them. To me, it's one of the unfortunate beliefs that has grown up with and around pre-tribulationism.

You wrote,

Was not Israel given the task of presenting God to the whole world and failed?

Me: Sure they failed but that doesn't mean there will be a seven or three and ahalf year period of time at the end of the age that if they do call upon Christ to be saved that they will have to so so without the Holy Spirit. Such conclusions are not in agreement with the foundational tenets of inward salvation begun by Christ and practiced by His Church throughout its history.

You wrote,

Why does Jesus rule with a Rod of Iron? Is this the beatitudes which made the Law even stronger in its application.

Psalms 2:9 Thou shalt break them with a rod of iron; thou shalt dash them in pieces like a potter's vessel.

Revelation 2:27 And he shall rule them with a rod of iron; as the vessels of a potter shall they be broken to shivers: even as I received of my Father.

Revelation 12:5 And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne.

Revelation 19:15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.

Does this sound like the wooing of the Holy Spirit?

Jesus Christ is still the Shepherd with the Scepter of Iron.

Revelation 19:16 And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.

Psalms 2:12 Kiss the Son, lest he be angry, and ye perish from the way, when his wrath is kindled but a little. Blessed are all they that put their trust in him.

Me: I don't have any problem with the Scriptures and the belief that Christ will rule with a rod of iron. I believe He will and we haven't seen anything yet as to how it will be as far as His ruling strongly. Christ's love for His Church and diligient care for them and for redeemed Israel will not clash with His ruling the nation with a rod of iron. Christ ruling in this way does not mean He willl rule without compassion for certainly He will rule in that manner also. The wooing of the Holy Spirit I referred to didn't have much to do with how things will be after Christ comes again. I was referring the Spirit's presence during the final days of the Tribulation and I questioned that if it was to be gone from the earth during this time then how can sinners be convicted and drawn to Christ? Or even inwardly born again (John 3:3)? This reversal of Pentecost that is supposed to occur at the pre-trib rapture is one of the beliefs that I believe needs to be looked at again.

29 - "And I will not hide My face from them any longer, for I shall have poured out My Spirit upon the hopuse of Israel" declares the Lord God. (Ezekiel 39:29)

I don't want to over exalt man, but perhoas during the Tribulation Israel will begin to see God's face and care for them in the face of a Church willing to be a friend and support for them during this time. Both will be in the wilderness and will have a understanding of each other as far as that goes. A meeting in the wilderness if you will but a prepared Church will have the proper prophetic insight as to what is happeneing and to share with Israel and Gentiles and point them to Christ. If Israel's rejection proved to be our reconcilation then might our reconcilitaiton also be a witness to Israel during this time that their reconciliation is still possible? The divine strategy and wisdom behind this meeting of Israel and a prepared Church in the wilderness is what the pre-trib view is missing. Might those of us who have been succored be a succorer of sorts to a wandering Israel? So what if both are in a final time of trouble? Not one of the rewards will be altered and will be great and not one promise of God will come up lacking.

After the tribulation

found it interesting

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dvv2HPYdhMA

Hi doc;

I could give my thoughts and replies to each subject, and go on and on as we spar with the Word.

For me it all comes down to am I a son, offspring of God or a servant before the throne in white robes.

I have some real problems with Tribulation Saints and sons of God, servant or son? I don't see how a living Christ in the flesh standing in His Temple on this earth, that the Father would birth Him in those that are saved after The Rapture. Possibly those saved before His second coming. "I will put my Words in their mouth"?

Can these before the throne be born again? A son knows, a servant does not. John 15:15 Henceforth I call you not servants; for the servant knoweth not what his lord doeth: but I have called you friends; for all things that I have heard of my Father I have made known unto you.

"I have called you friends" and sons'. John 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:

1 John 3:2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.

The other problem I have; I cannot see animal sacrifice in the temple when Jesus Christ Himself is standing there. To me that would be an insult to the Father and the Son.

Thank you for all the time you have spent in your replies, which keep me on my toes, or should I say knees.

In Christ: Phillip

As you stated that you have certain problems with servants and sons I have problems with there being two distinct types of salvation - one for those before a pre-trib rapture and a type of salvation with less privileges, no Spirit and a lower rank after the rapture. I base this on the tribulation scripture that states, "Every one that calls upon the name of the Lord shall be saved" (Joel 2:32, Acts 2:21). I believe there is one salvation for all who call upon the name of the Lord.

And I believe the Church has a destiny to meet Israel in the wilderness during the time of upcoming troubles. I think a reconciled Church can very well have a role to play in Israel's final reconciliation.

Thank you also for the time you spent in your replies and discourse with me. Your deep committment to God is very obvious.

Blessings to you.

From what I have read, there has only ever been 1 type of salvation--through belief in what God has revealed. The OT saints, although knowing only very little looked ahead toward the promises that were given them, the types and shadows of things to come that the Holy Spirit pointed toward--the work of Christ on the cross. Immediately after the fall, a future redemption was fortold (Genesis 3). We also look ahead to those promises but also behind to the cross of Jesus Christ (which shoots our hope forward to His return and our redemption!) Read Hebrews 11. Also, John 14 makes it clear that Christ is the only way. It was the same for the OT saints.

I, too, believe that Christians will go through the tribulation. It will be a time of persecution such as the world has never seen. However, it will also be a time when a distinction is made between those who belong to the Lord and those who do not--even a greater distinction than that of the Israelites in Egypt during the time of the plagues, and again, the wrath of God will not be poured out on His children, because Jesus purchased our pardon.

This is a home-hitter for me; maybe not a proof, but something that shows me why pre-trib theology is so popular. Many, many brothers and sisters I talk to say things like, "My God would never let my family be killed or tortured because of Christ. A good father wouldn't do that!" Yet that happens every day outside of the USA. Yet, those brothers and sisters are willing to give up their lives for the Gospel when they are confronted with suffering. Suffering doesn't go over well in the USA or other World-power countries. They have the tendency to have the pharisaical ideology that suffering means God is mad at you or that you are a big time sinner. Yet Pual said that ALL those who wanted to live godly lives in Christ Jesus will be persecuted.

I agree with your thoughts which are well said.

Quote, Doc wrote:

"""I have problems with there being two distinct types of salvation - one for those before a pre-trib rapture and a type of salvation with less privileges, no Spirit and a lower rank after the rapture."""

The only difference I see is in the birthing.
"Ye must be born again" John 3:3-6 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God. Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born? Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

Born again of what? Not flesh. But of Spirit. In Spirit the born again is now in a state of "Christ in you the hope of glory". The incorruptible Seed of the Father, which is Christ. This is where, "the life I now live I live by the Faith of the Son of God, The Spirit of Christ in me and now having access to the Mind of Christ. The living Word Himself in us.

1 Peter 1:23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the Word (Logos) of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.

Romans 8:9-14 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his. And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness. But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you. Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh. For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live. For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.

If the Holy Spirit is in the believer and the believer is raptured, the Holy Spirit is done with His Body of Christ the Church making His Seal in us our guarantee, He has kept His promise and conformation of keeping us in Christ, in which state we are in, going to the Fathers house and our mansions prepared for God's offspring, "sons of God".

This is confirmed by Christ coming with His saints on the clouds, not the rapture, in the clouds, when His feet touch down in the new Jerusalem, His second coming to rule with the saints, this earth and take His rightful throne, which is the throne of David Jesus is promised. David's throne to keep His promises to Israel.

Our perfection is the Christ in us, birthed by the Father in us, that Christ will not loose any that are sons.

Colossians 1:26-29 Even the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints: To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory: Whom we preach, warning every man, and teaching every man in all wisdom; that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus: Whereunto I also labour, striving according to his working, which worketh in me mightily.

Revealed to who? The Gentiles, The body of Christ His Church and the saints of God our Father,

This is the difference in old testament salvation and post rapture salvation, The Church age by the Christ that is birthed in us.

In Christ: Phillip

Read Romans 11. We are grafted into the same tree, not a different tree. And look what it says here:

"So that you will not be conceited, brothers, I do not want you to be unaware of this mystery: A partial hardening has come to Israel until the full number of the Gentiles has come in. And in this way all Israel will be saved, as it is written:

'The Liberator will come from Zion;
He will turn away godlessness from Jacob.
And this will be My covenant with them
when I take away their sins.'

Regarding the gospel, they are enemies for your advantage, but regarding election, they are loved because of the patriarchs, since God’s gracious gifts and calling are irrevocable. As you once disobeyed God, but now have received mercy through their disobedience, so they too have now disobeyed, resulting in mercy to you, so that they also now may receive mercy. For God has imprisoned all in disobedience, so that He may have mercy on all."

Over and over and over the Gospel is presented by Paul in both cases. The problem here is a misunderstanding of the condition of ALL men, the nature of our salvation, and the work that causes it. There are no good people on this earth. None. Therefore, God sent Christ, because of His great love with which he loved us, and He suffered and endured the wrath of God for us on the cross. When a person truly believes, it isn't just an accounting transaction in which God makes our infinite debt to Him 0. It is a complete rebirth! We once were dead, now we are alive. Our hearts were stone, now they are flesh. I once was blind, but now I see. Don't you see? Salvation is a miraculous work in which we supernaturally go from enemies of God to children of God by the power of the Holy Spirit. That is why Paul said that those who do not have the Spirit are NOT sons of God. Salvation cannot be attained apart from this. Ever.

Who is the Tree we are grafted unto, who is the root of that tree?

Ephesians 2:15 Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;

Who are the "twain"? Christ and the believer. By the "Christ in you the hope of glory", one new man.

Ephesians 2:15-16 Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace; And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby:

So by the Cross, He having slain the Law of Commandments and ordinances, God puts Christ in a man, (rebirthed, born again), and of Himself and the believer, making one new man.

The New man; "It is no longer I who live, but Christ who liveth in me. Yet I still live, and this life I now live by the two, Christ in me, have become "one new man";

Galatians 2:19-21 For I through the law am dead to the law, that I might live unto God. I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me. I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.

Does this validate Rom 11?

In Christ, one new man, by the living Word Himself:

Phillip

1 Peter 1:22-23 Seeing ye have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit unto unfeigned love of the brethren, see that ye love one another with a pure heart fervently: Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.

That's exactly what I am saying, Christinyou.

Although, you might be saying that the Holy Spirit doesn't do the regenerating. I am not sure. But I am fairly certain you and I are saying the same point...lol

It is good to know you havoc.

I am certain also, thank you for the reply, it has made my day. Kindred spirit.

I see The Spirit of Christ as the generator of new life and the Holy Spirit the director and teacher of the power of the resurrection and life of Christ in us.

In Christ: Phillip

You wrote,

Quote, Doc wrote:

"""I have problems with there being two distinct types of salvation - one for those before a pre-trib rapture and a type of salvation with less privileges, no Spirit and a lower rank after the rapture."""

The only difference I see is in the birthing.
"Ye must be born again" John 3:3-6 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God. Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born? Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

Born again of what? Not flesh. But of Spirit. In Spirit the born again is now in a state of "Christ in you the hope of glory". The incorruptible Seed of the Father, which is Christ. This is where, "the life I now live I live by the Faith of the Son of God, The Spirit of Christ in me and now having access to the Mind of Christ. The living Word Himself in us.

1 Peter 1:23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the Word (Logos) of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.

Romans 8:9-14 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his. And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness. But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you. Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh. For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live. For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.

Me: I don't have the slightest problems or misgivings with any of that. That's basically what we cut our teeth on as Christians.

Then,

If the Holy Spirit is in the believer and the believer is raptured, the Holy Spirit is done with His Body of Christ the Church making His Seal in us our guarantee, He has kept His promise and conformation of keeping us in Christ, in which state we are in, going to the Fathers house and our mansions prepared for God's offspring, "sons of God".

Me: I guess we're at the same point again. The problems I have begins here. I don't see why the pre-trib camp has this belief that the pre-trib rapture supposedly has this unique power and is the cutting off date for those who are saved after it after as far as experiencing genuine scripturally backed time New Testament salvation is concerned. Those saved before it are "sons" and those saved after it can only be "servants" without the Holy Spirit within and therefore a major portion of the New Testament scriptures regarding Christ within becomes non relevant and meaningless to these tribulation believers. It's hard for me to see how a doctrine that says you can be saved but will have a lower rank than "sons" and you won't have the Spirit within and robs people of a major portion of the Scriptures can said to have been birthed of God. Who is gong to explain to tribulation believers that they will never have what the people gone to heavne have, mainly the gift of the Holy Spirit, and who will explain to tribulation believers which of the New Testament Scriptures are for them and which aren't for them. If the 144,000 are said to be evangelists as pretriublationism ususally teaches and these 144,000 will proclaim the gospel mainly to Israel, will the 144,000 also explain to the believers of that time that they are getting a salvation that is of a much lesser depth and quality than those now gone? While proclaiming the gospel, will the 144,000 explain that if you get saved remember that you won't be getting the gift of the Holy Spirit and major portions of the New Testament won't be of any concern to you since it concerned those now raptured?

You wrote,

This is confirmed by Christ coming with His saints on the clouds, not the rapture, in the clouds, when His feet touch down in the new Jerusalem, His second coming to rule with the saints, this earth and take His rightful throne, which is the throne of David Jesus is promised. David's throne to keep His promises to Israel.

Me: One of the promises to millennial Israel after the second coming is found in Ezekiel 39:29:

"And I will not hide My face from them any longer, for I shall have poured out My Spirit on the house of Israel," declares the Lord God."

You said,

Our perfection is the Christ in us, birthed by the Father in us, that Christ will not loose any that are sons.

Colossians 1:26-29 Even the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints: To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory: Whom we preach, warning every man, and teaching every man in all wisdom; that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus: Whereunto I also labour, striving according to his working, which worketh in me mightily.

Revealed to who? The Gentiles, The body of Christ His Church and the saints of God our Father,

This is the difference in old testament salvation and post rapture salvation, The Church age by the Christ that is birthed in us.

Me: Well, since the Holy Spirit will be very much involved with Israel after the second coming and has been intimately involved with the Church throughout its history since Pentecost, it seems pretribulationism advocates that for a brief seven or three and a half year period at the end of the age before Christ comes that the gift of the Holy Spirit will cease for all believers because they misssed the rapture which was the cutting off date for getting in on the real first class salvation reserved only for "sons." It's an exegetical stretch never before seen and likely never even considered throughout Church history before the bneginning of its advent in the 1830s. A pre-trib rapture may have popped up its head a few solitary times during Church history. That didn't make it a correct doctrine but these beliefs that have grown up and accompany current pretribulationism have never been seen or heard before. I'm not trying to be a hard nose hard case in stating that. I just see it as simple facts about the history of the doctrine.

Since the official beginning of the Church age at Pentecost, God has been simultaneously dealing with Israel and the Chruch at the same time. The Church was present when Israel was virtually destroyed and carried into exile after the time of Christ. The Church has been there as against all odds a Jewish presence has come to exist again in the holy land. If the tribulation is God's time of final dealings with Israel as He brings them again into the bonds of covenant obedience (in Christ) might God's saved and Spirit indwelled Church have a role to play during this time also? Not only for Israel but inquiring Gentiles also. What if looking to be gone and away before it all is robbing major portions of the Chruch from even considering that they might have a role to play in Israel's final dealing and restoration? It's been said that God will remain restles until the final remnant of His original covenant people are grafted back in. Is being a friend and helper to Israel (and Gentiles) during this time even a blip on pre-tribulationism's radar screen? Do this view ever consider what it might be neglecting to conssider and possibly prepare for if they do have a divinely appointed role to play? We've got to get it right at this late date.

Thanks I hope and blessings to you bro.

Thanks doc,

Lots of thought and deep understanding of the scriptures.

I don't see a lesser salvation for tribulation saints or millennial saints. We don't have Jesus with us now except in Spirit. The millennial saints will have Him physically with them, and if the Father wants to give birth to those in the tribulation by The Spirit Christ being birthed in them, I see no different salvation for either of them.

It will be up to God and Christ to deal with those after the rapture, they are no respecter of persons'. I don't see where they would give any salvation more or less for anyone, only in how it is administered. But this would seem to apply; John 3:3-6 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God. So God must still be in the birthing of son's in His Kingdom, no matter the circumstances when they are birthed, Pre, mid or post. Will that be the Kingdom of God in the air, in His Father's house, on in the world, or in the new heaven and earth?

We already have the second coming of Christ, He is in the believer and me, some day I will see Him as He is as those after the rapture and He will know me as I am. Israel is still God's chosen people, be they sons' or not. That is good enough for me, I would not feel slighted in any way, for I would still be with Him in the new creation. What about the two sons', one squandering his inheritance the other living with the father, The Father treated them no different, but one did not like the Father's decision, I hope no one feels slighted in their salvation.

There is a body of Christ His Church who come back with Him.
And when all is finished, Jesus Christ will turn all over to His Father and God will be in midst of His Creation.
All will worship Him as Abba Father. "Our Father who art in heaven".

In Christ: Phillip

Hi bro.

You wrote,

I don't see a lesser salvation for tribulation saints or millennial saints. We don't have Jesus with us now except in Spirit. The millennial saints will have Him physically with them, and if the Father wants to give birth to those in the tribulation by The Spirit Christ being birthed in them, I see no different salvation for either of them.

Me: Regarding millennial Israel, Ezekiel wrote,

24 - For I will take you from the nations, gather you from all the lands, and bring you into your own land.

25 - "Then I will sprinkle clean water on you, and you will be clean; I will cleanse you from all your filthiness and from all yopur idols.

26 - Moreover, I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit within you; and I will remove the heart of stone from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh.

27 - And I will put My Spirit within you and cause you to walk in My statues, and you will be careful to observe My ordinances.

28 - And you will live in the land that I gave to your forefathers; so you will be My people, and I will be your God.

If they will be God's people and He will be their God it hardly seems as if they will only be able to obtain to being servants and not sons. And verse 27 says God will put HIs Spirit "within" them. Before salvation it is impossible to follow God or even desire to follow God. It's just not in natural man but afterwards our while inward framework is changed and we not only desire to follow God and keep His statues etc. we have the ability. Because we have been born again by His Spirit. Israel of that day will walk in God's statues and be careful to observe His ordinances because they will have been chabged on the inside by the Spirit. They will freely desire to follow God because of the inner transformation they have experienced. If anything, it is a picture of a Spirit indwelt people after the second coming. After the second coming coming the Spirit will be active (Joel 2:28) and since according to pre-trib's view believers up until the rapture have the Spirit within pre-trib is left to advocate that for a brief seven year period at the end of the age believers will not have the Spirit within. And that flies in the face of Peter's words - "Repent, and let each of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. For the promise is for you ad your children, and for all who are far off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call to Himself" (Acts 2:38-39). A brief seven year period after a rapture at the end of the age where where the Spirit is not received as a gift at salvation is an anomaly never before proposed to the Church before the 1830s.

We already have the second coming of Christ might better be stated that we have the Spirit sent from Christ at the right hand of God until His second coming.

What I would be interested in leaving at the forefornt of my comments for your consideration would be what I said before which was,

Since the official beginning of the Church age at Pentecost, God has been simultaneously dealing with Israel and the Chruch at the same time. The Church was present when Israel was virtually destroyed and carried into exile after the time of Christ. The Church has been there as against all odds a Jewish presence has come to exist again in the holy land. If the tribulation is God's time of final dealings with Israel as He brings them again into the bonds of covenant obedience (in Christ) might God's saved and Spirit indwelled Church have a role to play during this time also? Not only for Israel but inquiring Gentiles also. What if looking to be gone and away before it all is robbing major portions of the Church from even considering that they might have a role to play in Israel's final dealing and restoration? It's been said that God will remain restles until the final remnant of His original covenant people are grafted back in. Is being a friend and helper to Israel (and Gentiles) during this time even a blip on pre-tribulationism's radar screen? Do this view ever consider what it might be neglecting to consider and possibly prepare for if they do have a divinely appointed role to play? We've got to get it right at this late date.

That of all things would be what I desire to discuss with those of a pre-trib view.

Thanks again and I don't see you as an adversary or anything. We're in this together.

Blessings from above.

ChristinYou,

Thank you for the kind words. But just to make sure my stance is clear, I believe the Spirit of Christ IS the Holy Spirit. I am a trinitarian for sure.

---------------------------------

To get back to the subject of this thread, though: I do believe that pre-trib theology generates all kinds of strange quirks and beliefs withing Christianity.

This is the reason why I think it is so popular: people don't want to suffer. They don't want to endure persecution. So they approve of theologies designed to say that God gives them exactly what they want. That's why post-modern, blab-it-grab-it (name it claim it), prosperity gospel, and other similar ideologies prosper so much here in the states. It is man-centered at best and absolutely cross-less at worst.

Jesus said that those who find their lives will lose them, but those who lose their lives for His sake, they will find them. Death to self. That isn't just some arbitrary term we can throw around. It is a requirement, and has REAL physical consequences (and of course spiritual) for a believer.

Docs, you write

What if looking to be gone and away before it all is robbing major portions of the Church from even considering that they might have a role to play in Israel's final dealing and restoration?

Can you find any scripture which shows this will be the role of the body of Christ in the last days? The OT prophesies regarding Israel's time of tribulation and Jacob's trouble speak only of Israel, not the church.

In fact the church, the body of Christ was hidden, a mystery, not revealed until Paul wrote. Does Paul write about Israel being evangelised by the Body of Christ during the tribulation?

Rather, the scripture teaches that, after the fullness of the Gentiles is brought in, the church including you and I, will be taken up and Jehovah will recommence His dealings with Israel, the 70th week. I believe that the whole problem in understanding these things lies with what you write; ie confusing the purposes of God for Israel and for the Church.

Scriptures please

Your brother in Christ
David

Quote: """Thank you for the kind words. But just to make sure my stance is clear, I believe the Spirit of Christ IS the Holy Spirit. I am a trinitarian for sure."""

Then you must believe that the Father is the Son also and the Holy Spirit is the Father, correct?

So in your statement and with the Holy Spirit being the Son, please explain these scriptures to me.

Joh 14:16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;
Joh 14:26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.
Joh 15:26 But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me:
Joh 16:7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.

Is Jesus anointing Himself? Acts 10:38 How God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Ghost and with power: who went about doing good, and healing all that were oppressed of the devil; for God was with him.

Luke 4:1 And Jesus being full of the Holy Ghost returned from Jordan, and was led by the Spirit into the wilderness,

Was Jesus leading Himself?

1 Corinthians 12:3 Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and that no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost.

I am sure you have heard all these apologetics for the individual work of the Three in the Trinity as Father, Son and Holy Spirit, the Son giving Life to the believer by the life shed on the Cross, the Holy Spirit Teacher Paraclete, expresser and Sealer of that life as our guarantee of the finished salvation work of Christ in the believer, by the plan of the Father, who birthed Jesus in Mary by the Holy Spirit.

I don't see the Holy Spirits blood shed for my one time sacrifice that I might live.

I would appreciate an understanding or the Trinitarian point of view.

Probably need to start another thread with your reply.
Please ignore if this is offensive.

In Christ: Phillip

davidc wrote: """Rather, the scripture teaches that, after the fullness of the Gentiles is brought in, the church including you and I, will be taken up and Jehovah will recommence His dealings with Israel, the 70th week. I believe that the whole problem in understanding these things lies with what you write; ie confusing the purposes of God for Israel and for the Church."""

I agree and the birthing, which is the mystery is the center of it all. "Christ in you the Hope of Glory" This is the Body of Christ His Church, sons of God not God's people Israel.

In Christ: Phillip

Quote, Doc wrote:

"""I have problems with there being two distinct types of salvation - one for those before a pre-trib rapture and a type of salvation with less privileges, no Spirit and a lower rank after the rapture."""

Thoe left behind are all martyred.

Here they are;
Revelation 7:14
And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

How are they "lower rank" in that God declares "the last shall be first"

Nohere does scripture imply "lower rank" to those leeft behind.
In fact It is quite probable they have "higher rank"

You wrote,

Can you find any scripture which shows this will be the role of the body of Christ in the last days? The OT prophesies regarding Israel's time of tribulation and Jacob's trouble speak only of Israel, not the church.

Me: The OT prophecies regarding Israel's time of tribulation and Jacob's trouble don't ever mention Gentiles either. Yet we know and acknowledge that Gentiles will be present during the time of Jacob's trouble. By the same standard, if the OT prophecies supposedly don't mention the Church are we to automatically assume that the Church won't be present as pretribulationism assumes? If pretribulationism acknowledges that Gentiles will be present during this time though these Gentiles are not specifically mentioned in OT prophecies then it opens the possibility that the Church will be present also though it is supposedly not mentioned.

All the time honored scriptures regarding witnessing and evangelizing would be in effect during this time for a present and active Church. What reason would there be for it to shirk its evangelistic mandate during this time? Especially if the Church realizes what the times are about and why they are happening and by its prophetic insight gained from its study of the scriptures reslizes that the time of final dealings with Israel is at hand and occuring. Right during his description of the career of the arrogant little horn/ Antichrist/man of lawlessness Daniel wrote,

"but the people who know their God will display strength and take action, and those who have insight among the people will give understanding to the many." (Daniel 11:32-33)

There's nothing in the context of these verses that disqualifies "the people who know their God" from being Christians. Even if these people with proper insight and understanding are to be Jewsih believers where would they have obtained the proper prophetic inight? Why would those who know their God oppose the man of sin and take action? Why would they know to do this? A proper prophetic understanding of the last days is not possible without the revelation and light that a Christian understanding sheds on it. In my thinking if it is not a description of the Church giving understanding to many it could be possible they gained their insight and understanding from the Christian Church that would be present.

Before His departure Christ told and commanded His disciples,

"Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all that I commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age." (Matthew 24:19-20)

Quoting,

"These were among the last words spoken by the Lord to His Apostles before He left them. Naturally they have a peculiar interest to all His people today, because it is through the obedience of the Apostles and early witnesses to this command, that we ourselves have come to know the faith of the Gospel. What concerns us now, however, is the light that these words of our Lord throw upon our inquiry when the Church’s career upon earth will close. It affords us very clear guidance, for the Lord promised to the founders of His Church His own presence by the Spirit, "unto the consummation of the age." Plain it is, therefore, that the Church will exist on earth until that time. Such is the natural inference of the promise; for if the Lord had believed that He was to come and receive His believing people to Himself several years before the End of the Age arrived, He could not have used the language that we are now examining. He would have said, "I am with you all the days until the last trial, when I will receive you to Myself." But the fact that He said, "I am with you alway even unto the consummation of the age," is proof that our Lord presupposed that His Church would not be removed from earth to heaven, several years or decades before the End." ( From "The Approaching Advent of Christ' - by Alexander Reese - copyright 1937 - from Chapter 7 - "The Great Missionary Commission And Its Fulfillment") END

The apostles Christ spoke this commission to were blood bought and cleansed and redeemed Spirit filled believers (John 20:22) about to launch the great world wide missionary crusade for Christ. From Christ's very own words, it's abundantly clear intended to be with these missionaries/Church by His Spirit always even until the "end of the age." So why would this Church shrink from its evangelistic mandate during the last days and time of Jacob's trouble? Especially if it had the proper prophetic insight to provide a witness of a witness of faith and love and help to Israel during this time and was able to properly interpret Israel's time of trouble in the light of God's covenant with them and the prophecies.

You wrote,

In fact the church, the body of Christ was hidden, a mystery, not revealed until Paul wrote. Does Paul write about Israel being evangelised by the Body of Christ during the tribulation?

Me: It's a matter of debate as to whether the age of grace and the Church was not mentioned in the OT and was a mystery until Paul wrote of it. But one needs to be able to acknowledge that Paul never went against the words of Christ and proposed and wrote of the Church being raptured seven years before the "end of the age." All the scriptures Paul wrote of being an ambassador for Christ and of the Church being a witness and bearing testimony of Christ will be in full effect until the end of the age and not only until seven years before. Paul wrote, "I am telling the truth in Christ, I am not lying, my conscience bearing me witness in the Holy Spirit, that I have continual sorrow and unceasing grief in my heart. For I could wish that I myself were accursed, separated from Christ for the sake of my kinsmen according to the flesh" (Romans 9:1-3). Paul naturally assumed the Church was to be here until the end of the age (and Christ's Spirit with them until the end of the age) so it is likely safe to assume he believed the Church would carry this same burden for Israel until the end and consummation of the age. So if the Church was to carry this burden why would it shirk from evangelizing and witnessing to Israel? Especially if this Church has the proper prophetic insight as to why Israel is in the crisis it is and would be willing to lay down its life for Israel if this would help open Israel's eyes?

You wrote,

Rather, the scripture teaches that, after the fullness of the Gentiles is brought in, the church including you and I, will be taken up and Jehovah will recommence His dealings with Israel, the 70th week. I believe that the whole problem in understanding these things lies with what you write; ie confusing the purposes of God for Israel and for the Church.

Me: Yes, after the time of the Gentiles are brought in God wil turn again to His final dealings with Israel but why does that mean the Church will be raptured and gone? Where does it specifcially and clearly state that when the times of the Gentiles has been completed that you and I will be "raptured." Jesus said that "Jerusalem will be trampled under foot by the Gentiles until the time of the Gentiles is fulfilled" (Luke 21:24). During the tribulation Jerusalem will be given to the nations and tread under foot (trampled under foot) for forty two months (Daniel 7:25, 12:7, II Thess 2:4, Rev 11:2-3) only to be delievered at the end of the tribulation at the second coming. So the times of the Gentiles ends at the end of the tribulation when Jersualem is finally and irrevocably delivered from hostile Gentile world powers. It doesn't mean that God is not dealing with Israel during the final time of Jacob's trouble but the Gentiles will still have power over the Jews and Jerusalem during this time. So you and I being raptured and taken up to Jehovah would fall at the end of the seven years if we are to be raptured at the end of the times of the Gentiles. It seems elementary if one calmly and honestly examinines the biblical timeline and sequence for the end of the age.

Those of the pre-trib camp that advocate a plan of God for the Church and a different plan of God for Israel are usually among those who advocate and teach that the final eschatological remmant of Israel will be redeemed and grafted back in minus the indwelling of the Spirit. Even thoght they have placed their faith in Christ and have been made clean by the blood of the Lamb (Rev 7:14) a Spiritless salvation of an Old Testament type minus inward regeneration is proposed for those saved during the tribulation. I'm thinking poor eschatological Israel who has to come in minus the one true reality that results from one being saved! If God has a plan for the Church and a separate plan for Israel the Church fathers and scholars over the centuries sure seemed to have missed the fact that the final remnant of Israel and all believing Gentiles after the rapture would have to come to Christ minus the Spirit! Before the advent of pretribulationism, the belief that eschatological Israel would be redeemed without inward regeneration and wouldn't belong to the Church was never imagined by those who went before us and proclaimed the surpassing excellencies of the Gospel. I'm not trying to be a smart aleck but hearing such proposals makes me sincerely wonder who is it that doesn't understand what. Where did the proposal that those saved by the blood of Christ at the end of the age won't even belong to the Church really come from? And major portions of the New Testament won't even concern those saved after a pre-tribulation rapture seven years or so before the end of the age? Again, I'm more sure than ever that many of the beliefs that have grown up around and presently accompany the pre-trib view need to be looked at again. How may people that advocate the pre-trib view know of many of the beliefs that have come to accompany it? Since according to the words of Christ the Church will be present until the very end of the age The Church very well has a end time destiny to bear a testimony of faith, sacrificial love and apostolic reality in Christ to a beleagured Israel as this Church is able to interpret to Israel why the crisis is occuring in the light of God's covenant with them and the prophecies. Meanwhile,

19 - Go then and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,

20 - teaching them to observe everything that I have commanded you, and behold, I am with you al the days (perpetually, uniformly, and on every occasion), to the [very] close and consummation of the age. Amen (so let it be). (Matthew 28:19-20 - Amplified Bible)

You wrote,

Scriptures please

Me: See all of my comments above. That's not even to mention the numerous references to the Church in Revelation. But since one of the beliefs accompanying pretribulationism is that those saved during the tribulation (though saved without the Spirit within!) won't be part of the Church a fruitful discussion seems to be hindered at the very start.

Thanks, Bro Doc for your full answer with plenty of scriptures to think about. I've been away for a few days so will consider what you say and if the Lord pleases, will reply.

David

Thanks for your reply davidc. Many times I have the feeling I overload posts. I've just never been able to make short posts so it's on my end. I'll keep an eye out for any replies you may be inclined to share. There is no hurry if you do.

Blessings.

Docs

Your postings, whether long or short are always edifying and challenging brother.

You may in my last brief reply have noticed a slight reluctance on my part to write more. Of course I am conscious that we are all brethren in Him who has bought us with His blood. Such oneness that He has created brings a reluctance to dispute or argue points with you.

You have come through His leading to a certain understanding of scripture, and I, to another. But it is that same love which makes us one that constrains me to write. You do not need to be told by myself or others what are the things we believe concerning the end times as you have already studied in depth youself and rejected it.

The motive for my continuing to write is that I really believe that you are, by adherring to your present understanding, missing out on a whole realm of revelation of the person and work of Christ, of the Spirit and of the Bride.

As I wrote before, the critical point is in understanding the difference between Israel and the Church as revealed in scripture. This is where we differ, and where, I believe, you have "straightened" view. Paul would say " Be ye also enlarged"

Much love in Him

David

Quote;""Again, I'm more sure than ever that many of the beliefs that have grown up around and presently accompany the pre-trib view need to be looked at again. How may people that advocate the pre-trib view know of many of the beliefs that have come to accompany it? ""

This is a really bad way to approach truth.

If this is my template,I would need to depart from christianity all together,and I certainly would never entertain Postrib with the centerpiece and banner one of "anti-pre" rather than "scripture" foundation.

Wss Jesus' references to all the "escape" and "flee" verses flawed?

Where does the bride fit in the purposes of God?
Why does post leave out the bride and the marriage?

I stated,

"Again, I'm more sure than ever that many of the beliefs that have grown up around and presently accompany the pre-trib view need to be looked at again. How may people that advocate the pre-trib view know of many of the beliefs that have come to accompany it? "

You replied,

This is a really bad way to approach truth.

If this is my template,I would need to depart from christianity all together,and I certainly would never entertain Postrib with the centerpiece and banner one of "anti-pre" rather than "scripture" foundation.

Me: That seems like a personal opinion you hold and of course you're entitled to your opinion. But you didn't say much or anything or provide any ways in which it is a bad way to approach truth so I'll just leave it in the personal opinion file. Meanwhile, I was just expressing a opinion of my own.

You asked,

Wss Jesus' references to all the "escape" and "flee" verses flawed?

Me: I never said they were all flawed. I'm just of the opinion that they were given a new context and meaning beginning in the 1830s.

You wrote,

Where does the bride fit in the purposes of God?
Why does post leave out the bride and the marriage?

Me: I would say the bride fits very nicely in with the purposes of God and is a very blessed part of the plans of God. Nothing about the Church/Bride not being removed before the tribulation and being here during it does anything to alter God's plans for the Bride.

If you actually think the post trib view leaves out the Bride and the marriage then you are either misinformed or lack any real depth of understanding as to what the post-trib view teaches. That's not trying to be condescending on my part but your question is very far from reality. If you think this view leaves out the Bride and the marriage then you perhaps have a colossial lack of understanding concerning the post trib view or like I said before you are just misinformed. That's not personal against you but just a statement of objective fact.

Who is the Bride of Christ? What is the Bride of Christ?

If She is to be caught up to the Fathers House, Where is the Fathers House?

If post trib, why does she need to be caught up, if Christ is already here?

Ephesians 5:25-33 Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it; That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word, That he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish. So ought men to love their wives as their own bodies. He that loveth his wife loveth himself. For no man ever yet hated his own flesh; but nourisheth and cherisheth it, even as the Lord the church: For we are members of his body, of his flesh, and of his bones. For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother, and shall be joined unto his wife, and they two shall be one flesh. This is a great mystery: but I speak concerning Christ and the church. Nevertheless let every one of you in particular so love his wife even as himself; and the wife see that she reverence her husband.

Let Christ so love His Bride even as Himself. AS His church, He nourishes and cherishes Her. Christ loveth Himself, because He loves Himself He loves the members of His own body.

How are we members of His flesh, His body, His bones.

The mystery; The birthing of Christ in the believer.

Colossians 1:13-14 Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated (carried away) us into the kingdom of his dear Son: In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins: ()added

Are we not already carried away (translated) and seated in the Heavenlies, in Christ Jesus? Waiting only for the redemption of the body of flesh, bone and blood. There will be no blood in our new bodies, for it will be just like His, His shed blood is our perfect righteousness, sanctification and redemption. Knowing this by His Wisdom that God has put in us by the birthing.

We are already translated into the Kingdom, the only thing that has to occur is the redemption of the sealed promise, the redemption of the body of flesh.

Colossians 1:22 In the body of his flesh through death, to present you holy and unblameable and unreproveable in his sight:

The mystery of Christ and the Church now revealed;

Colossians 1:25-29 Whereof I am made a minister, according to the dispensation of God which is given to me for you, to fulfil the word of God; Even the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints: To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory: Whom we preach, warning every man, and teaching every man in all wisdom; that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus: Whereunto I also labour, striving according to his working, which worketh in me mightily.

Pretribulation wise, all this has happened already, only one thing left.

1 Thessalonians 4:13-18 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope. For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

These words are to comfort those that are left alive, no need of comfort for those dead in Christ.

This is the only thing left; 1Co 15:51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
1Co 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
1Co 15:53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
1Co 15:54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.
1Co 15:55 O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?
1Co 15:56 The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law.
1Co 15:57 But thanks be to God, which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ

Those left after the catching away of the Body of Christ His Church, those left will be left in the strength of sin in the Law, ruled by a rod of Iron by Christ and His Church. The body of Christ is not in, under, by any shape or form, under the Law. For the pre-translation at His shout, is come to pass. This we hold true by faith.

The Body of Christ, living with Christ forever, in the Fathers House.

In Christ: Phillip

QUOTE;"If you think this view leaves out the Bride and the marriage then you perhaps have a colossial lack of understanding concerning the post trib view or like I said before you are just misinformed."

Where and when do you place the marriage and wedding supper?

Who are thee 10 virgins and what does the oil,"foolish" ,"wise",bridegroom etc represent.?

Where and when is the consummation of the marriage?
Where on the net can i go to see the full postrib revelation on the marriage,the wedding supper,and all the dynamics of the bride/bridegroom.

QUOTE"That seems like a personal opinion you hold and of course you're entitled to your opinion. But you didn't say much or anything or provide any ways in which it is a bad way to approach truth so I'll just leave it in the personal opinion file. Meanwhile, I was just expressing a opinion of my own."

You imply the pretrib doctrine is erroneous in that you wonder how many of "us" know of the strange beliefs ACCOMPANYING" that doctrine.

Of which my response is ,in effect,your template for discarding doctrine being ,"persons and beliefs associated with any doctrine",would,in fact,by such a yardstick,invalidate every single doctrine. Christianity would be rejected immediately under your litmus test.

IOW,you are doing nothing more than attacking the ADHERENTS of the pretrib doctrine,instead of debating the scriptures and the substance directly.

Please.........Scripture,scripture,scripture!

Thanks for your thoughts. I've been busy etc. and haven't gotten back to you but plan to do so. I believe that sometimes it's good to mull over the comments of others for a bit before responding right away. So thanks and I'll get back to you relatively soon.

Blessings.

I wrote,

"If you think this view leaves out the Bride and the marriage then you perhaps have a colossial lack of understanding concerning the post trib view or like I said before you are just misinformed."

And you asked,

Where and when do you place the marriage and wedding supper?

Me: I place it after the destruction of Babylon which is near the very end of the tribulation. The destruction of Babylon is seen in chapter 18 of Revelation. The fourfold hallelujahs immediately following in chapter 19:1-6 of Revelation are then followed in chapter 19:7-9 by the declaration that the marriage of the Lamb has come.

7 - "Let us rejoice and be glad and give the glory to Him, for the marriage of the Lamb has come and His bride has made herself ready."

8 - And it was given to her to clothe herself in fine linen, bright and clean; for the fine linen is the righteous acts of the saints.

9 - And he said to me, "Write, 'Blessed are those who are invited to the marriage supper of the Lamb.'" And he said to me, "These are the true words of God." (Rev 19:7-9)

I see this as announcing that the time for the marriage supper has come and not that a marriage banquet or the marriage of the Lamb and the supper is past and has already occurred in heaven.

Meanwhile, is the bride to be equated with the Church only as pre-tribulationism does as it advocates that those redeemed and saved during the tribulation, and especially those of Israel who are redeemed during this time, will not be part of the Church?

Quoting,

"Israel, too, is likened to a bride (Isaiah 49:18, 61:10, 62:5, Jeremiah 2:32, Hosea 2:19-20) and the Church is likened to a wife (Ephesians 5:22-23). We should not expect to find rigid consistency in the biblical use of metaphors. To press woodenly the maritial relationship of both Israel and the Church of the Lord is to say that God is a bigamist. Mixed metaphors abound in the Scriptures: Christ is shepherd and lamb, king and slave, priest and sacrifice. The Church is priesthood and temple, body and bride. Spiritual relationships are so multiform and transcendent that they require seemingly contradictory, but really complementary, metaphors. Thus, since Israel as well as the Church is both bride and wife, we should not jump to the conclusion that the Lamb's bride and wife consist of the Church alone."

"On the contrary, the context indicates that at the marriage supper of the Lamb the bride includes Israel: "Come here, I shall show you the bride, the wife of the Lamb. And he...showed me the holy city, Jerusalem,...with twelve gates,...and names were written on them, which are those of the twelve tribes of the sons of Israel (Rev 21:9-10, 12). If, ,therefore, the marriage supper does not require a pretribulational resurrection and rapture of the Israelitish segment of the bride, neither does it require a pretribulational resurrection and rapture of the Church. (In accordance with Daniel 12:1-2, most pretribulationists acknowledge thsat Israel's resurrection will follow the tribulation.)"

"Nor is the marriage supper necessarily spoken of as in the past. The action in the aorist ("has come") may be ingressive or dramatic, denoting the inauguration or immediacy of the event. If this is the meaning, the marriage supper will occur immediately upon Christ's descent. Mathematical calculations whether the judgment of Christians and the marriage supper could take place during Christ's descent are altogether unnecessary, if not ludicrous."

(From "The Church And The Tribulation" - by Robert H. Gundry - copyright 1972 - p85-86)

Me: Gundry says a lot in my opinion and uses Scripture in support. I'm no fancy wordsmith when it comes to Hebrew and Greek or the like but the "aorist" he speaks of in Rev 19:7 (the marriage supper "has come") has to do with Greek verbs and their tenses etc. and the Greek there - "has come" - does not in indicate that the marriage supper is already past. Not his last paragaraph in the quote I referenced above.

Immediately following the declaration of the marriage of the Lamb and the supper in Rev 19:7-9 is the noteworthy verse 19:10,

10 - And I fell at his feet to worship him. And he said to me, "Do not do that; I am a fellow servant of yours amd your brethren who hold the testimony of Jesus; worship God. For the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.

Immediately following verse 10, Rev 19:11 then begins a description of the second coming of Christ and continues to the end of the chapter. So the declaration that the marriage of the Lamb has come and blessed are those who are invited to the marriage supper is immediately followed by a description of the second coming of Christ. So in the natural reading of Rev 19:7-9, the announcement of the marriage supper etc. is immediately followed in sequence by the second coming. It doesn't signify in any way that the marriage of the Lamb and the marriage supper have already occured. The natural reading of the marriage of the Lamb "has come" is strongly indicative that it will occur at the second coming since the second coming is the very next thing described in Revelation. I believe as verse 19:9 states that these are the "true words of God" confirmed by the testimony of Jesus in the spirit of prophecy and above all are the true words of God seen in their proper chronological sequence of occurrence.

You asked,

Who are the 10 virgins and what does the oil,"foolish" ,"wise",bridegroom etc represent?

Me: I believe that what needs to be kept in mind regarding the parable and its exhortation to be ready always is the original context in which it was spoken. The context is the disciples asking, "Tell us, when will these things be, and what will be the sign of Your coming, and the end of the age?" (Matt 24:3). Therefore the parable of the 10 virgins has in mind events at the "end of the age" when the bridegroom comes for the bride and isn't about a separate and distinct coming seven years or so before the end of the age. The wedding feast mentioned in Matt 24:10 concerns the end of the age and not seven or three and a half years before.

You asked,

Where and when is the consummation of the marriage?

Me: See all of the above.

You asked,

Where on the net can i go to see the full postrib revelation on the marriage,the wedding supper,and all the dynamics of the bride/bridegroom.

Me: Well, I realy don't know. I suppose you could find it if one looked hard enough. Of course being on the net or not on the net does not indicate the validity or non validity of a belief. If one can find post-tribulational views on the internet then it would seem to follow that they would believe the marriage of the Lamb etc. occurs at the one and only second coming.

I wrote,

"That seems like a personal opinion you hold and of course you're entitled to your opinion. But you didn't say much or anything or provide any ways in which it is a bad way to approach truth so I'll just leave it in the personal opinion file. Meanwhile, I was just expressing a opinion of my own."

You replied,

You imply the pretrib doctrine is erroneous in that you wonder how many of "us" know of the strange beliefs ACCOMPANYING" that doctrine.

Me: Yes, I sometimes wonder how many people who have accepted the pre-trib doctrine of Christ's return actually know of the beliefs that now accompany it. I never really totally believed the pre-trib view and I never really disbelieved it. It was always sort of hanging out there over everything and I never really knew of the beliefs that had come to accompany it. I was just taught that one had better be ready because Christ could come to rapture His Church at any moment or any second and I just believed what I was taught. After looking into things further I now realize I never was aware that the age of grace was supposed to end at a pre-trib rapture and that a likely majority of the pre-trib view believes that those saved during the tribulation are not going to be part of the Church. And if they were saved they would not have the Spirit within since Pentecost was to be stopped and reversed at the rapture and tribulation believers would not be able to use large parts of the New Testament since those scriptures were meant for a Spirit indwelled Church long gone. So on and so on. Personally, I have doubts about a doctrine that denies new believers the Spirit within and renders large portions of the New Testament irrelevant to them.

You wrote,

Of which my response is ,in effect,your template for discarding doctrine being ,"persons and beliefs associated with any doctrine",would,in fact,by such a yardstick,invalidate every single doctrine. Christianity would be rejected immediately under your litmus test.

Me: That's simply a over reach and a misinterpretation of my words. I'm not trying to come back hard at you and raise an emotional level or anything but I know my thoughts and they didn't come near what you are suggesting.

You wrote,

IOW,you are doing nothing more than attacking the ADHERENTS of the pretrib doctrine,instead of debating the scriptures and the substance directly.

Please.........Scripture,scripture,scripture!

Me: No, that is not what I am doing. This is really the first time I have exchanged any dialog with you of any substance and when speaking with the others I have in this thread I am pretty sure I have used scripture when addressing the disagreements I have with the pre-trib view. Please review them if you are inclined.

After Peter's sermon at Pentecost the response he got was,

37 - Now when hey heard this, they were pierced to the heart, and said to Peter and the rest of the apostles, "Brethren, what shall we do?"

38 - And Peter said to them, "Repent and be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

39 - "For the promise is for you and your children, and for all who are far off, as many as the Lord God shall call to Himself."

If the Lord calls believers to Himself during the tribulation and they repent and are baptized in the name of Jesus Christ do you believe Peter's words are still in effect regarding all believers receiving the Holy Spirit. Or do you believe Peter's words are to be in effect only to seven years before the end of the age? I don't see Peter mentioning a cut off date seven or three and a half years before the end of the age for believers receiving the Spirit. How long do you see Peter's words being in effect?

The pouring out of the Spirit is an act performed by Christ in His ministry as High Priest at the right hand of God.

16 - And I will ask the Father, and He will give you another Helper, that He may be with you forever; (John 14:16)

32 - "This Jesus God raised up again, to which we are all witnesses.

33 - "Therefore having been exalted to the right hand of God, and having received from the Father the promise of the Holy Spirit, He has poured forth this which you both see and hear.

34 - "For it was not David who ascended into heaven, but he himself says: 'The Lord said to my Lord, "Sit at My right hand,

35 - until I make thine enemies a footstool for Thy feet.

36 - "Therefore, let all the house of Israel know for certain that God has made Him both Lord and Christ - this Jesus whom you crucified. (Acts 2:32-36)

Resting upon Peter's Spirit inspired promise, all believers receiving the Spirit is even more intimately connected to Christ's ministry from the right hand of God. "He has poured forth" the gift of the Spirit. How long do you see Christ engaging in this ministry. To say there is a cut off date when He will no longer pour forth the Holy Spirit to dwell in believers seems to be tampering with His very ministry at God's right hand. Will the Father tell Him the cut off date has been reached for that part of your ministry? Do you believe this part of Christ's ministry ends seven years or so before the end of the age or contnues until the end?

Sorry I can not shorten this reply, it is to important to the pre=tribulation view of 1 Thess 4.

It is not has come. It is, "is come": Strong's Greek Dictionary
2064. erchomai
Search for G2064 in KJVSL
ercomai erchomai er'-khom-ahee
middle voice of a primary verb

(used only in the present and imperfect tenses, the others being supplied by a kindred (middle voice)

eleuthomai el-yoo'-thom-ahee, or (active) eltho el'-tho,

which do not otherwise occur)
to come or go (in a great variety of applications, literally and figuratively):--accompany, appear, bring, come, enter, fall out, go, grow, X light, X next, pass, resort, be set. end

The marriage of the Lamb is come already making His Bride with Him, before His manifestation of His second coming in the clouds with Her to execute His judgment and set upon Davids throne and rule with His Bride, His body the Church which He has presented to Himself.

Gaebelein's Annoted Bible
Revelation 19:1
CHAPTERS 19-20:6

The Manifestation of the King and the Millennium

1. Heavenly hallelujahs and the marriage of the Lamb (19:1-6)
2. Heaven opened and His visible manifestation (19:11-16)
3. The battle of Armageddon (19:17-21)
4. The binding of Satan (20:1-3)
5. The thousand-year reign (20:4-6)
Verses 1-10. Once more we find the significant phrase "after these things" (chapter 4:1; 7:1; 18:1). "After these things"--the things which are described in chapters 17 and 18, the fall of Babylon and the complete destruction of the whore and the system over which she presided and domineered, after these things, voices in heaven are heard again. We were first introduced to the heavens in this book in the fourth chapter.

In chapter 18:20 we heard the words addressed to heaven, "Rejoice over her, thou heaven, and ye holy apostles and prophets, for God hath avenged you on her." And now we see heaven rejoicing. "I heard as it were a great voice of a great multitude in heaven saying, "Hallelujah." Hallelujah means "Praise ye Jehovah." This Hebrew word is not found elsewhere in the New Testament. Four times this word of praise is found in the beginning of this chapter; the Hallelujah times for heaven and earth are imminent. The book of Psalms closes with many hallelujahs; the blessed time which the Psalms so often anticipate, when the earth is judged in righteousness and the glory of the Lord is manifested, is now at hand. The praise here is on account of the righteousness of God exhibited in the judgment of the great whore "which did corrupt the earth with her fornication" and because the blood of God's servants shed by her is now avenged. The great multitude whose Hallelujah is heard first must be the company of martyrs who died during the tribulation. The souls under the altar and their brethren which were slain later utter this praise now. They are seen as a distinct company from the twenty-four elders. A second hallelujah is uttered by them, while the smoke of the destroyed city goes up forever and ever.

The whole redeemed company, Old and New Testament saints, add their amen and hallelujah to the outburst of praise on account of the execution of the righteous judgment. And they worship God, for it is of the righteousness which accomplished the destruction of the great whore. In the midst of this wonderful and impressive worship-scene the throne begins to be heard. A voice from the throne said: "Give Praise unto God all ye His servants and ye that fear Him both small and great." And the command is at once obeyed. John hears the fourth hallelujah and it is the greatest, the most magnificent. It is the great hallelujah-chorus of heaven. Like the voice of many roaring waters, like the voice of mighty thunderings, a great multitude saith, "Hallelujah for the Lord our God Omnipotent reigneth."

Who is this great multitude? In the first verse we heard the Hallelujah of the martyred companies. The twenty-four elders and four living creatures did not join in this first hallelujah. Their hallelujah followed. And now the great outburst of a great multitude. This multitude includes all the redeemed in glory. And they rejoice and give glory for an additional reason which is made known for the first time in this book. The marriage of the Lamb is about to be consummated. "Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honor to Him, for the marriage of the Lamb is come and His wife has made herself ready." The harlot, which claimed to be the bride, being judged, the true bride of Christ is seen in glory. And it is the marriage of the Lamb. His joy is now filled full for He receives her, who is bone of His bone and flesh of His flesh. The second Man, the last Adam, is joined to her who is to rule and reign with Him.

But who is the bride about to become the Lamb's wife? Some teach that it is Israel to be united with the Lord in the closest bonds. But these expositors forget that the scene is a heavenly one. This marriage does not take place on earth where the faithful remnant looks up, expecting Him to appear for their deliverance, but this marriage is in glory. It is true such relationship is declared to be Israel's in the Old Testament. She was married to Jehovah in a legal covenant and on account of her faithless condition, because Jerusalem played the harlot (Eze 16:35), she was put away. For a time Israel was the wife of Jehovah (Isa 54:1) and then on account of her wickedness became divorced. She will be taken back in the day of her national repentance when the Lord comes. But as one who had been divorced she cannot be a bride again. The bride of Christ to become the Lamb's wife is the Church of the New Testament.

All who accepted Christ as Saviour and Lord since the day of Pentecost constitute the bride of Christ. The Church began on Pentecost and her completion will be the translation to glory (1Th 4:17). She is both the body of Christ and the bride of Christ, as Eve was of the body of Adam and also his bride. The Church is the nearest and the most beloved object of His loving heart.

But how has she made herself ready? And what does it mean, "And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white for the linen is the righteousness of the saints"? The grace of God has supplied the robe and the precious blood is her title to glory. In this respect she was ready. But the words here refer us to the judgment seat of Christ, that award seat before which we must appear. Then the hidden things are brought to light and the wood and the hay and stubble are burned (1Co 3:12-,15). Then "every man shall have praise of God" (1Co 4:5) and what grace accomplished in each one and through each will be manifested. And the clean white linen "is the righteousness of the saints." The word "righteousness" is in the plural. It means more than the righteousness which we are in Christ or the faith in Him which is counted for righteousness (Ro 4:3). It includes all the blessed results in life and service produced by the Holy Spirit, the practical righteousness of the saints. And yet even these need the washing in that precious blood without which all is unclean and unholy.

And so it is grace after all, as indicated by the word "given" (Revised Version); "it was given to her to be clothed in fine linen, bright and pure." He himself has made her ready and removed every spot, every wrinkle and every blemish. God grant that we His people may daily meditate on this coming glorious event, the marriage of the Lamb, and walk worthy of such a Lord and such a calling. Once more John is commissioned to write: "Write, Blessed are they which are bidden to the marriage supper of the Lamb." And who can estimate the blessedness of being in His ever blessed presence, at His table, at the marriage supper of the Lamb!

Verses 11-16. And now we reach the great event so often mentioned in the Old Testament, the event for which this world is waiting, the visible manifestation of Him, whom the heavens received, who returns to judge the earth, to receive the promised kingdom and rule over the earth for a thousand years. We have reached the great climax in the Revelation. His own words are now to be fulfilled. "Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from the heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken. And then shall appear the sign of the Son of Man in heaven, and then shall the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of Man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory" (Mt 24:29-30).

Impressive words--"And I saw heaven opened." Heaven was opened unto Him when He came out of Jordan at His baptism. While His baptism foreshadowed His death in the sinner s place, His resurrection and ascension are foreshadowed in coming out of the waters and the open heaven. In heaven at the right hand of God He has been ever since, unseen by human eyes. At last the time has come when God is to make His enemies as the footstool of His feet. Heaven is opened so that He might be revealed in His glorious majesty. And out of the opened heavens He comes forth. He comes as the mighty Victor to judge in righteousness and to make war. "And behold a white horse; and He that sat thereon was called Faithful and True and in righteousness He doth judge and make war." The white horse is symbolical of victorious warfare and glorious conquest. When, seven years before the first seal had been opened (6:1), a rider appeared upon a white horse achieving great conquest, it was the false king who was then seen in vision. He is as the beast on earth with the King and their armies to make war with the coming King who comes out of the opened heaven. Glorious sight! He is coming to conquer and to claim His inheritance. The appointed day has come in which God "will judge the world in righteousness by that man, whom He hath ordained; whereof He hath given assurance unto all men, in that He hath raised Him from the dead" (Ac 17:31). Upon His head are many diadems. The saints wear crowns, but He to whom belongs all power in heaven and on earth wears many diadems, encircling His head in dazzling splendor.

"And He had a name written, that no man knew but Himself." And again it is written, "His Name is called the Word of God." And on His vesture and on His thigh there is a name written, "King of Kings and Lord of Lords." The unknown Name is the name of His essential deity. No human name can express what He is in Himself "No man knoweth the Son but the Father." His Name "the Word of God" refers us to the Gospel of John. As the Word He is the express image of God, that is, He makes God visible. He is the expression of God in His character, His thoughts and counsels. And the third name mentioned, "King of Kings and Lord of Lords," expresses what He is in relation to the earth.

"And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood"--"And out of His mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it He should smite the nations, and He shall rule them with a rod of iron, and He treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God." The blood-dipped vesture has nothing to do with His work on the cross. He is described in Isa 63:1-4 as the One who has the day of vengeance in His heart, and this passage in Isaiah is here being fulfilled. The two-edged sword refers us to Isa 11:4: "He shall smite the earth with the rod of His mouth and with the breath of His lips shall He slay the wicked."

But He is not alone. The armies of heaven follow the great King. They are, like Him, upon white horses and are clothed in fine linen, white and clean. These armies are not angels. It is true, angels will be with Him as He comes, for it is written, then He shall be revealed with His holy angels. Angels will be the reapers in the judgment (Mt 13:41) when the age ends and they will be used in the regathering of Israel (Mt 24:31). But the armies here are not angels. They are the glorified saints; the fine linen, white and clean, identifies them fully. In faith and blessed assurance, you, dear reader, and the writer can say, we shall be in that company with Himself as leader. The Son brings His many sons unto glory (Heb 2:10). What a sight that will be for the earth-dwellers! Each in that company bears His own image; each reflects His own glory.

Verses 17-21. And what a sublime vision comes next! An angel is beheld by the Seer standing in the sun, and with a loud voice he summons the birds that fly in mid-heaven to gather themselves to the great supper of God to eat the flesh of the slain. The birds of prey are summoned in anticipation of the battle of Armageddon which is then imminent. And now the hour of judgment has come. An angel, standing in the sun, the place of supreme authority, gives the invitation to the birds of prey to be ready for the feast which a holy and righteous God will have for them. The day of wrath has come. The slain of the Lord shall be many (Isa 66:16).

And down on earth there is the greatest gathering of armies the world has ever seen. The beast, the head of the revived Roman Empire, is the commander-in-chief The kings of the earth are with him. Vast armies camp on all sides. The great valley on the plains of Esdraelon is filled with soldiers. The hills and mountains swarm with armed men. Satan's power has gathered and blinded this vast multitude to the utmost. The unclean spirits, the demons working miracles, have brought them together to the battle of that day. And the hordes from the north, under the Prince of Rosh are coming later. These vast multitudes from the north and beyond Euphrates are described in Eze 38-39. And in that Old Testament prophecy we find a statement which reminds us of the great supper of God in Revelation. "Speak unto every feathered fowl, and to every beast of the field, assemble yourselves and come; gather yourselves on every side to My sacrifice that I do sacrifice for you, even a great sacrifice upon the mountains of Israel, that ye may eat flesh, and drink blood" (Eze 39:17). "Thus shall ye be filled at My table with horses and chariots, with mighty men, and with all men of war, saith the Lord God" (verse 20).

Zec 14:2 is now being fulfilled. While the vast armies are covering valleys and hills, the objective will be Jerusalem. All nations are gathered against her. "For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city." And now as these armies are massed together the great battle of Armageddon takes place. They are ready to make war against Him, who comes through heaven's portals. "Then shall the Lord go forth, and fight against those nations" (Zec 14:3). The battle does not consume much time. Sennacherib's army was suddenly smitten and they all perished, and here are armies in comparison with which Sennacherib's forces were insignificant. One mighty blow from above, one flash of glory and all their strength and power is gone. The stone has fallen (Da 2). With one blow the dominion and misrule of the Gentiles is at an end.

The kings of the present day might profitably listen to Nebuchadnezzar's letter in Da 4. He began at the times of the Gentiles, and has left this letter to be read by his successors. The words our Lord spoke while on earth "on whom this stone falls it shall grind him to powder" have been fulfilled (Mt 21:44). Such is the awful fate which "Christian civilization" (?) and "Kultur" (!) and a Christless Christendom is rapidly approaching. And while the armies perish as to the body and God's wrath sweeps the earth clean of the mass of apostates, taking vengeance on them that know not God and that obey not the gospel, the beast (the head of the empire) and the false prophet (the second beast of chapter 13), that is the false Messiah, the Antichrist, are cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone. They were not annihilated, for a thousand years later we still find them there (20:10); and still they are in existence and will ever be as individuals in that place of eternal punishment. And those that were slain as to the body will be raised after the millennium and also share the place with the two, whom they followed and worshipped.

Chapter 20:1-3. And now Satan, who was cast out of heaven three and one-half years before the visible and glorious coming of the Lord, and who has been on earth in person, though not beheld by human eyes, is seized to be put into his prison for a thousand years. And the demons, who were liberated by Satan (chapter 9) are likewise shut up in the bottomless pit, though this is not mentioned because it is self-evident. The terms "key" and "great chain" are of course figurative. He is mentioned in all his infamous titles. He is called dragon on account of his horrible cruelty and vileness, the old serpent on account of his maliciousness, guile and deception; he is the devil, the arch-tempter of man, and Satan because he is the accuser of the brethren, the one who opposed Christ and His people. He is now dethroned as the god of this age, completely stripped of his power; and his dethronement means the complete enthronement of our Lord Jesus Christ. And here is the important statement that this being, the once glorious Lucifer, the Son of the morning and light-bearer, who fell through pride, has been the deceiver of the nations.

Verses 4-6. Thrones are seen next by the Seer. "And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them and judgment was given unto them." Daniel also saw thrones in connection with the judgment of the beast, but nothing is said of those occupying the thrones in Daniel's vision. Here we have the complete revelation, and several times the blessed statement is made that Christ and His saints shall reign with Him for a thousand years. The new age in which all things are put in subjection under His feet, the personal reign of Christ, in which all His redeemed people have a share, begins. It will last a thousand years. Six times we read of the thousand years in this chapter. Because this coming age will last a thousand years it has been called by the Latin word "millennium." Not a few have made the astonishing declaration that such a period of time during which Christ and His saints reign over the earth has but little foundation in the Scripture.

It is quite true that the only place in which the duration of such an age is given is this great final book of Revelation. And that should be sufficient for any Christian to believe in such an age of a thousand years. However, this age of unspeakable blessing and glory for this earth is revealed throughout the entire Bible. The Old Testament contains hundreds of unfulfilled promises of blessing for Israel, the nations of the earth and even for all creation, which have never seen even a partial fulfillment. Isaiah is full of such promises. In the New Testament there are also passages which clearly teach and point to such an age of glory for this earth. Read Mt 19:28; Ac 3:19-21; Ro 8:19-23; Eph 1:10; Col 1:20; Php 2:9-11. What awfully disheartening pessimism it would be if we had to believe that the terrible conditions prevailing on the earth now, conditions which have steadily become worse, were to continue and that man's work is to remedy them and produce something better. This earth has a bright and glorious future. Nations will some day no longer turn, as they do now, their plowshares into swords, but change their swords into plowshares. Righteousness and peace will surely kiss each other and creation's curse and travail pains will end. Mercy and truth meet together.

But when? Never as long as the great unfoldings of this book, which we have briefly followed, have not come to pass. There can be no better day for the earth as long as He is absent and not on the throne which belongs to Him. But when He comes, when He has appeared in glory and in majesty, then the earth will find her rest and groaning creation will be delivered. As we do not write on the great blessings and glories to come when He comes, we must refrain from following these things. Here in our book the revelation is given that Christ shall reign for a thousand years and His Saints shall reign with Him.

Let us notice briefly the different classes mentioned who are associated with Christ in His personal reign. The entire company of the redeemed, as we saw them under the symbolical figure of the twenty-four elders, occupying thrones and wearing crowns, are undoubtedly meant by the first statement, "they sat upon them and judgment was given unto them." They judge with Him. This is the raptured company whom we saw first in glory in chapters 4 and 5; and we, dear fellow-believer, belong to this company. Then follow the martyrs, whom we saw under the fifth seal (6:9-11): "And I saw the souls of them that had been beheaded on account of the testimony of Jesus and for the Word of God." Then we have a third company. "And I saw those who had not worshiped the beast, nor his image, and had not received his mark on their forehead, or in their hands." These are the other martyrs who were slain during the great tribulation, when the beast set up the image and demanded its worship (13). They lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. The first resurrection is passed and all who have part in it reign with Christ, are priests of God and of Christ and shall reign with Him a thousand years.

Oh! wonderful grace which has saved us! Grace which has saved us in Christ and through His ever precious blood delivered us from eternal perdition! Grace which saved us from Satan's power, from sin and all its curse! Grace which has lifted into such heights of glory and has made us the sons of God and the joint-heirs of the Lord Jesus Christ! And how little after all we enter into all these things, which ought to be our daily joy and delight. How little we know of the power of the coming glory of being with Christ and reigning with Him!

In Christ: a birthed son of the Father, by the eternal living Word of God Himself in me:

Phillip

I don't have a lot of time right now.

You wrote,

Who is the Bride of Christ? What is the Bride of Christ?

If She is to be caught up to the Fathers House, Where is the Fathers House?

Me: If the saints are caught up to the Father's house to forever be with the Lord at a pre-trib rapture aren't they going to have to soon vacate the mansions prepared for them when they return to earth with Him a short seven or three and a half years later? Perhaps pretribulationism should begin preparing people for a short stay in their forever mansions.

You asked,

If post trib, why does she need to be caught up, if Christ is already here?

Me: I have never understood why there is such a big deal and fuss made over the saints rising to meet Christ in the air and then returning to earth with Him. Are the pillars of the Church going to fall down if such a thing occurs? So the saints rise and meet Christ in the air and return with Him. So what? Why has such a big deal been made over that as if this one point proves Christ only making one return at His second coming is unfeasible.

You wrote,

Ephesians 5:25-33 Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it; That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word, That he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish. So ought men to love their wives as their own bodies. He that loveth his wife loveth himself. For no man ever yet hated his own flesh; but nourisheth and cherisheth it, even as the Lord the church: For we are members of his body, of his flesh, and of his bones. For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother, and shall be joined unto his wife, and they two shall be one flesh. This is a great mystery: but I speak concerning Christ and the church. Nevertheless let every one of you in particular so love his wife even as himself; and the wife see that she reverence her husband.

Let Christ so love His Bride even as Himself. AS His church, He nourishes and cherishes Her. Christ loveth Himself, because He loves Himself He loves the members of His own body.

How are we members of His flesh, His body, His bones.

Me: I have no problem whatsoever with the things you have stated concerning the Body of Christ, the Bride. Posttribulational believers rejoice over the fact that the Body, the Church, is made up of believers who make up the Bride of Christ. In their view it's as foundational and basic as tying your shoes or breathing air each day. And it's a source of wonder and blessing and reassurance. I don't believe pretribulationism possesses the only true understanding of the Body and the Bride of Christ and what they propose will happen to this Body/Bride seven years before the end of the age only appeared in the 1830s. The early scholars and church fathers all spoke in posttribulational terms when speaking of the last things and assumed this to be the view of the majority of orthodox Christianity.

You wrote,

The mystery; The birthing of Christ in the believer.

Me: I rejoice over the birthing of Christ in the believer also. It's making a dividing line at a pre-trib rapture that presents problems I believe and by veering into unscriptural territory. The dividing line makes those before this rapture saved and regenerated and inwardly born again by the indwelling Spirit and those saved after this don;t become inwardly born again by the indwelling Spirit and are not considered to be part of the Church and will never be "sons" but only "servants." It is said they will possess a New Testament type of salvation by placing thier faith in Christ but this salvation will really be a type of Old Testament salvation minus the indwelling Spirit. So on and so on. Why didn't early scholars ever see this emphasis taught in scripture. They possessed the same type of learning and scriptural study Darby and his brethren did. Why did God have to wait until the 1830s to show this to the Church? It seems like a type of spiritual caste system when those before this rapture get all the promises and those after inherit a much lesser second tier type of salvation just because they missed the rapture. I strongly propose that New Testament salvation without the indwelling Spirit is a contradiction in terms and reality and can't be supported by any thorough exegesis of what New Testament salvation in Christ is. And I strongly propse that the Holy Spirit who inspired the wrtings of the Scriptures can't be the origins of a doctrine that makes large portions of the New Testament irrelevant to a certain group of believers who are unfortunate enough to come along during the very last part of this era.

You wrote,

Colossians 1:13-14 Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated (carried away) us into the kingdom of his dear Son: In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins: ()added
Are we not already carried away (translated) and seated in the Heavenlies, in Christ Jesus? Waiting only for the redemption of the body of flesh, bone and blood. There will be no blood in our new bodies, for it will be just like His, His shed blood is our perfect righteousness, sanctification and redemption. Knowing this by His Wisdom that God has put in us by the birthing.

We are already translated into the Kingdom, the only thing that has to occur is the redemption of the sealed promise, the redemption of the body of flesh.

Colossians 1:22 In the body of his flesh through death, to present you holy and unblameable and unreproveable in his sight:

The mystery of Christ and the Church now revealed;

Colossians 1:25-29 Whereof I am made a minister, according to the dispensation of God which is given to me for you, to fulfil the word of God; Even the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints: To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory: Whom we preach, warning every man, and teaching every man in all wisdom; that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus: Whereunto I also labour, striving according to his working, which worketh in me mightily.

Me: Notice the words "Christ in you the hope of glory." That is New Testament salvation. Where was it ever proposed in church history before the 1830s that the generation of tribulation believers and Israel's eschatological remnant would not inherit the promises and reality of "Christ in you the hope of glory?" Why does this pre-tribulation rapture have the power and authority to cancel these promises? It's an anomaly never before seen or thought of or proposed in Church history. Other mean and scholars studied these things intently. Why didn't they see it throughout the history of the Church?

Acts 2:38-39. How far does this extend to? The end of the age or seven years before the end of the age.

You wrote,

Pretribulation wise, all this has happened already, only one thing left.

1 Thessalonians 4:13-18 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope. For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

These words are to comfort those that are left alive, no need of comfort for those dead in Christ.

Me: But those words describe the second coming of Christ. No one ever thought any different before the 1830s.

You wrote,

This is the only thing left; 1Co 15:51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,

1Co 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

1Co 15:53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.

1Co 15:54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.

1Co 15:55 O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?

1Co 15:56 The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law.1Co 15:57 But thanks be to God, which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ

Me: I'm not trying to toot my own horn but I can never seem to get a straight answer when I ask how far Acts 2:38-39 was meant to extend to. Also, I never can seem to get an answer when I bring up the fact that Paul uses a quote from Isaiah 25:8 to support his statement in I Cor 15:54. Chapters 24 -27 of Isaiah describe the final eschatological deliverance of Israel and the resurrection of their righteous dead. That occurs at the end of the age. We now know this deliverance, accompanied by the resurrection, will occur at the time of the second coming of Christ. In I Cor 15 Paul is linking the time of the resurrection and translation of the Christian saints with the same time as Israel's final deliverance and resurrection at the end of the age. Paul would not have linked Israel's delievrance and resurrection with the time of the resurrection of the Chrisitan saints unless this was so. So I Cor 15 has not a whit of a thing to do with a pre-tribulation rapture seven years before the end of the age.

You wrote,

Those left after the catching away of the Body of Christ His Church, those left will be left in the strength of sin in the Law, ruled by a rod of Iron by Christ and His Church. The body of Christ is not in, under, by any shape or form, under the Law. For the pre-translation at His shout, is come to pass. This we hold true by faith.

The Body of Christ, living with Christ forever, in the Fathers House.

Me: But under the pre-trib scheme of things, aren't they going to have to vacate the Father's heavenly house and mansions a short seven years after they arrive because they will be coming back to earth with Christ at His second coming?

I still believe that the notion of a pre-trib rapture and many of the beliefs that have grown up around and presently accompany it are in need of a thorough and diligent second look and re-examination.

Never underestimate the power of a doctrine that charms human flesh to survive a torrent of wisdom, logic, critical thinking, and the words of Jesus.

Those who believe in a pre-tribulation flight into the sky have taken the idea so deep within they cannot consider an alternative.

"Thy kingdom come, Thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven," they were commanded to pray.

But alas, they grew weary and thought up something that sounded like more fun.

Quote: """Me: But under the pre-trib scheme of things, aren't they going to have to vacate the Father's heavenly house and mansions a short seven years after they arrive because they will be coming back to earth with Christ at His second coming?"""

The Father's House is where the Father and the Son are the light thereof and that is here on earth when His House is standing in the New Jerusalem, come down from heaven. That is where the Bride, the body of Christ and all Saints that have been gathered together to live with Christ and the Father forever. Who is left? The unsaved of Israel and every nation that will not receive salvation for unbelief and joining the army of Satan.

Where is David's throne? If there is a New Jerusalem, would it not be in the Father's House? I wonder how big are the mansions in the Father's House? I don't think we will need bedrooms, don't know about kitchens or bathrooms, roofs, driveways etc.

In Christ: Where ever the Father and the Son are that is our mansions. Do you think God has it all worked out?
WoW

In Christ: Phillip

You wrote,

The Father's House is where the Father and the Son are the light thereof and that is here on earth when His House is standing in the New Jerusalem, come down from heaven. That is where the Bride, the body of Christ and all Saints that have been gathered together to live with Christ and the Father forever. Who is left? The unsaved of Israel and every nation that will not receive salvation for unbelief and joining the army of Satan.

Where is David's throne? If there is a New Jerusalem, would it not be in the Father's House? I wonder how big are the mansions in the Father's House? I don't think we will need bedrooms, don't know about kitchens or bathrooms, roofs, driveways etc.

In Christ: Where ever the Father and the Son are that is our mansions. Do you think God has it all worked out?
WoW

Me: I can appreciate what you are saying. Yet, when all the saints are living with the Father in the New Jerusalem will all be sons of God or will the portion of the believers from the tribulation only be destined to live as servants never to obtain to the status of sons because they missed the rapture? Why does a pre-trib rapture have such authority to make this division?

And the question remains outstanding regarding Acts 2:38-39 and how long it is meant to be in effect. Does it include tribulation believers or does it not? And why would Paul use a reference from Isaiah 25:8 describing the resurrection of Israel at the end of the age to describe the translation of the Christian saints in I Cor 15. Is it possible Paul was implying that the two coincide in sequence - at the end of the age and not seven years before?

Hi Docs,

It would depend on if their names are written in the Lambs book of life. No one can be saved unless their name is in His book, these are those that God has given to the Son for His Kingdom. All those saved are of One Body and One Spirit and that is Christ.

Revelation 13:8, 1 Peter 1:20, Matthew 25:34).

Be it any of the seven dispensations, all saved must be in His Book, we in Grace are the ones that are called "in Christ the hope of Glory". What God uses or how He saves anyone are in His judgments, I don't question Him who is first or last, I just know I have the witness in me that calls me a son.

In Christ: Phillip

Hi Docs,

It would depend on if their names are written in the Lambs book of life. No one can be saved unless their name is in His book, these are those that God has given to the Son for His Kingdom before the earth was formed. All those saved are of One Body and One Spirit and that is Christ.

Revelation 13:8, 1 Peter 1:20, Matthew 25:34). Ephesians 1:4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

Be it any of the seven dispensations, all saved must be in His Book, we in Grace are the ones that are called "in Christ the hope of Glory". What God uses or how He saves anyone are in His judgments, I don't question Him who is first or last, I just know I have the witness in me that calls me a son.

In Christ: Phillip

Docs;"I see this as announcing that the time for the marriage supper has come and not that a marriage banquet or the marriage of the Lamb and the supper is past and has already occurred in heaven.
Meanwhile, is the bride to be equated with the Church only as pre-tribulationism does as it advocates that those redeemed and saved during the tribulation, and especially those of Israel who are redeemed during this time, will not be part of the Church?"

OK,this is what I am talking about.Why would it not be fitting to reconcile the wedding with Jesus and what he said?
Jesus,being the groom,and the wedding being the entire encompassing theme of the end times?

Do you see how you automatically tried to lean Postrib on this subject?

Just look at the scripture plain and simple
John 14:2
In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.
Matthew 26:29
But I say unto you, I will not drink henceforth of this fruit of the vine, until that day when I drink it new with you in my Father's kingdom.

Mat 25;10 And while they went to buy, the bridegroom came; and they that were ready went in with him to the marriage: and the door was shut.

11 Afterward came also the other virgins, saying, Lord, Lord, open to us.

12 But he answered and said, Verily I say unto you, I know you not.

13 Watch therefore, for ye know neither the day nor the hour wherein the Son of man cometh.

All this points to a marriage IN HEAVEN.
Combined with the 2 witnesses raptured and even the 144k in heaven,along with all the martyers.
All in heaven,with the groom DURING the trib period.

Postrib cannot possibly reconcile this.
This is WHY postrib distorts the 10 virgin parable.

Luke 21:36
Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.
Revv 3;10 Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.

11 Behold, I come quickly: hold that fast which thou hast, that no man take thy crown.

I wrote,

"I see this as announcing that the time for the marriage supper has come and not that a marriage banquet or the marriage of the Lamb and the supper is past and has already occurred in heaven.

Meanwhile, is the bride to be equated with the Church only as pre-tribulationism does as it advocates that those redeemed and saved during the tribulation, and especially those of Israel who are redeemed during this time, will not be part of the Church?"

You replied,

OK, this is what I am talking about. Why would it not be fitting to reconcile the wedding with Jesus and what he said?

Jesus, being the groom,and the wedding being the entire encompassing theme of the end times?

Do you see how you automatically tried to lean Postrib on this subject

Me: Those that are not pre-trib have never had any problems reconciling the wedding with what Jesus said. If you believe so, those are likely caricatures that don't have any real substance when they are examined in their entirety.

Yes, since I am post-trib I can see how I try to automatically lean post trib on this subject. Since you are pre-trib I sort of kind of see how you tend to lean pre-trib on the subject. I'm just kidding bro, don't pay me any mind on that!

You wrote,

Just look at the scripture plain and simple
John 14:2
In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.

Matthew 26:29
But I say unto you, I will not drink henceforth of this fruit of the vine, until that day when I drink it new with you in my Father's kingdom.

Me: How does Jesus going to prepare mansions for us prove a pretribulation rapture? Might these mansions and the like be inherited at the second coming? How does Matthew 26:29 prove a pre-trib rapture?

You wrote,

Mat 25:10 And while they went to buy, the bridegroom came; and they that were ready went in with him to the marriage: and the door was shut.

11 Afterward came also the other virgins, saying, Lord, Lord, open to us.

12 But he answered and said, Verily I say unto you, I know you not.

13 Watch therefore, for ye know neither the day nor the hour wherein the Son of man cometh.

Me: "the day nor the hour when the Son of man cometh." Until the 1830s the coming of the Son of man was universally believed and proclaimed by the Christian Church to be the second coming. Why didn't the noted scholars and theologians that came up in the Church throughout its history see this coming of the Son of man as not relating to the second coming? Why were they so blind since they failed to see supposed pre-trib emphasis to this parable? And things that have come to accompany this such as the age of grace ending and Pentecost being reversed and the eschatological remnant of Israel and believing Gentiles to be redeemed during the tribulation are to be redeemed without the indwelling Spirit being given to them? What major treatise during the history of the Church before the 1830s can be cited that gives and siginificance or credibility to these views that presently accompany pretribulationism?

You stated,

All this points to a marriage IN HEAVEN.
Combined with the 2 witnesses raptured and even the 144k in heaven,along with all the martyers.
All in heaven,with the groom DURING the trib period.

Me: Yet Revelation 19:7 says that the marriage of the Lamb "has come" not already occurred. The KJV uses the phrase "is come" but it doesn't change the chronological meaning that the time of the event has finally arrived and is about to occur.

The NASB says,

7 - Let us rejoice and be glad and give glory to Him, for the marriage of the Lamb has come and His bride has made herself ready.

The NIV SAYS,

7 - Let us rejoice and be glad and give him glory! For the wedding of the Lamb has come, and his bride has made herself ready.

The Amplified Bible says,

7 - Let us rejoice and shout for joy [exulting and triumphant]! Let us celebrate and ascribe to Him glory and honor, for the marriage of the Lamb [at last] has come, and His bride has prepared herself.

Say one day I wake up and go outside and am standing in the yard and two people come by happy and rejoicing and I ask, "What's up?" And it's the day of a big football game and they say, "The day of the game has come and the team has made itself ready." Am I to believe by that that they mean the game has already been played and their statement that the team has made itself ready means they have already played the game? I would have serious doubts that that would be what they meant by, "The day of the game has come." Comparing the marriage of the Lamb and a football game may be a bad comparison but still, I'm content to let the statement in Revelation 19:7 speak for itself. It's just gool ole common language. The marriage of the Lamb "is come"/"has come" certainly does not mean a wedding has been going on in heaven. Immediately after these statements Revelation begins to detail the second coming so it's not hard to figure how the marriage of the Lamb "has come" and the bride has made herself ready figures into the proper chronological sequence of coinciding with the second coming.

You wrote,

Postrib cannot possibly reconcile this.
This is WHY postrib distorts the 10 virgin parable.

Me: Post trib feels no need to reconcile this. At His second coming Christ comes for His bride. All saved during the tribulation will be included as Christ comes for His. The parable of the 10 virgins is a dynamic lesson and reminder to be always mindful and ready as we see the day approaching. Bring oil and lots of it with you. Amen!

If those save by placing their faith in Christ during the tribulation and are cleansed by His blood but won't beloeng to the Church as pretribulationism advocates then isn't this distorting the nature of the Church? Those saved by faith and the cleansing blood before the tribulation are saved the same way those during the tribulation willl be - by placing their faith in Christ and being cleansed by His blood. But heck, it's said those believers during the tribulation won't even have the Spirit given to them to dwell within since Pentecost will supposedly be reversed and nullifed at the pre-trib rapture. How did all these things come to accompany pretribulationism?

37 - Now when they heard this, they were pierced to the heart, and said to Peter and the rest of the apostles, "Brethren, what shall we do?"

38 - And Peter said to them, "Repent, and let each of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of your sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

39 - "For the promise is for you and your children, and for all who are far off, as many as the Lord our God shall call to Himself." (Acts 2:38-39)

So a person during the tribulation repents and is baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for remission of their sins and yet it is advocated by the pre-trib view that they won;t receive the promised gift of the Holy Spirit. Was the Holy Spirit just jive talkin'(seriously) when He inspired Peter to make this promise for all who call upon the name of the Lord for salvation. How do you reconcile the colossial difference and discrepancy between Peter's statement and what the majority of present pretribulationism advocates regarding the nullification and reversal of Pentecost and the promised Spirit at the pre-trib rapture?

Thanks.

What major treatise during the history of the Church before the 1830s can be cited that gives and siginificance or credibility to these views that presently accompany pretribulationism?"

So,with so many of the postribers on these rabbit trails,I will have to say,the postrib doctrine could also be named "the doctrine of men gone to the grave,not necessarily restricted to what they did, but DIDN'T say, dependent on any later findings of what we might discover that they did say"

Or "TDOMGTTGNNRTWTTBDSDOALFOWWMDTTDS" (for short)....Or "DOODMPNF" ,Doctrine of old dead men,pending new finds.
Wow, you are a prime candidate for deception.
So you base all doctrine on man's opinion,pending a discovery of more complete sayings?

Brother,I am just teasing and having some fun but you cannot seem to defend your position scripturally

I use as my reference for truth the WORD OF GOD.

I can defend my position using this ancient book.
Evidently,you seem to have a problem,with this method,as you seem to validate your position with some man's affirmation.

I am not trying to be ugly but I can not think of a single doctrine of scripture that requires this erroneous method.

I can only sit in awe as I am witnessing this strangeness
............ they heap to themselves teachers(men born before 1830)......

Wow,this is new to me,a doctrine of" men of old and what they did not say...."

Any time you want to use the scripture as your reference let me know.

PEACE

You wrote,

So,with so many of the postribers on these rabbit trails,I will have to say,the postrib doctrine could also be named "the doctrine of men gone to the grave,not necessarily restricted to what they did, but DIDN'T say, dependent on any later findings of what we might discover that they did say"

Or "TDOMGTTGNNRTWTTBDSDOALFOWWMDTTDS" (for short)....Or "DOODMPNF" ,Doctrine of old dead men,pending new finds.
Wow, you are a prime candidate for deception.
So you base all doctrine on man's opinion,pending a discovery of more complete sayings?

Brother,I am just teasing and having some fun but you cannot seem to defend your position scripturally

Me: My opinion of those who went before us in Church history and studied the doctrine of the Holy Spirit and its meaning and the meaning and effects of it indwelling each believer based on sure promises etc. is somewhat higher than they were just a bunch of old men now dead and gone to the grave. Their wrtings are many times of greater depth and exegetically sounder and devotionally richer than what is published today. I don't see their writings as just doctrines of old dead men. I consider them and their scriptural studies and writings a rich leagcy for the Church to draw upon.

The scriptural question remains,

37 - Now when they heard this, they were pierced to the heart, and said to Peter and the rest of the apostles, "Brethren, what shall we do?"

38 - And Peter said to them, "Repent, and let each of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of your sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

39 - "For the promise is for you and your children, and for all who are far off, as many as the Lord our God shall call to Himself." (Acts 2:38-39)

So a person during the tribulation repents and is baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for remission of their sins and yet it is advocated by the pre-trib view that they won't receive the promised gift of the Holy Spirit. Was the Holy Spirit just jive talkin'(seriously) when He inspired Peter to make this promise for all who call upon the name of the Lord for salvation. How do you reconcile the colossial difference and discrepancy between Peter's statement and what the majority of present pretribulationism advocates regarding the nullification and reversal of Pentecost and the promised Spirit at the pre-trib rapture?

Thanks.

Hi docs,

I appreciate your noncontentious loving way of disscussing the issue.

You have done a great Job with presenting the post trib view!

Thanks for the time you took in replying and I apologize for not getting back to you sooner.

You wrote,

|
Sorry I can not shorten this reply, it is to important to the pre=tribulation view of 1 Thess 4.

It is not has come. It is, "is come": Strong's Greek Dictionary
2064. erchomai
Search for G2064 in KJVSL
ercomai erchomai er'-khom-ahee
middle voice of a primary verb

(used only in the present and imperfect tenses, the others being supplied by a kindred (middle voice)

eleuthomai el-yoo'-thom-ahee, or (active) eltho el'-tho,

which do not otherwise occur)
to come or go (in a great variety of applications, literally and figuratively):--accompany, appear, bring, come, enter, fall out, go, grow, X light, X next, pass, resort, be set. end

The marriage of the Lamb is come already making His Bride with Him, before His manifestation of His second coming in the clouds with Her to execute His judgment and set upon Davids throne and rule with His Bride, His body the Church which He has presented to Himself.

Me: I'm not trying to be condescending or the like in any way when I say the KJV may use the phrase "is come" but the KJV is not the only Bible believers use. Of course you know that and I'm not trying to be sharp when I state that but other translators were every bt as pure in their motives and as skilled at translation as the KJV tranlsators were. And the majority have looked over the scriptures and the original languages and the context of the passages and they came up with that which is referenced below.

The NKJV says,

Let us be glad and give Him glory, for the marriage of the Lamb has come, and His wife has made herself ready.

The NASB says,

7 - Let us rejoice and be glad and give glory to Him, for the marriage of the Lamb has come and His bride has made herself ready.

The NIV says,,

7 - Let us rejoice and be glad and give him glory! For the wedding of the Lamb has come, and his bride has made herself ready.

The Amplified Bible says,

7 - Let us rejoice and shout for joy [exulting and triumphant]! Let us celebrate and ascribe to Him glory and honor, for the marriage of the Lamb [at last] has come, and His bride has prepared herself.

And again, if I were to say something along the lines of "The day of the big football game has come and the team has made itself ready" would you think I was trying to state the fact that the entire game had already been played? I'm thinking the phrase "the marriage of the Lamb is come" was never meant to imply that the marriage had already occurred.

I have some thoughts reagrding Gaebelein's comments that you shared and I will try to get them to you soon.

Ha, you made a double post not long after I made what was I think my first double post on sermonindex! Heck, at least we're together on one thing.

Blessings to you.

"Has come", "is come" makes no difference because the marriage of the Lamb happens in heaven, and when He comes on the White horse to pronounce judgment on the nations, those that are His army are the same as the bride, "clothed In white, linen all white and clean. The marriage has already happened, "has come", "is come", else how could his army the body of Christ His Bride come at the same time He does riding a great white horse, they riding on white horses also clothed in white linen. The two are the same, "the Bride of Christ His Church His body", His army.

This happens in heaven; Revelation 19:1 And after these things I heard a great voice of much people in heaven, saying, Alleluia; Salvation, and glory, and honour, and power, unto the Lord our God:

The marriage of the Bride the Body of Christ His church married to Jesus Christ. Revelation 19:7-8 Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready. And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints.

His army coming with Him, The Bride, His body to fight against unrighteousness and give judgment on the earth, with Him as the Husband and General.

Revelation 19:14 And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.

Then there are those that will be invited to the marriage supper of the Lamb, of which occurs on this earth.

Revelation 19:9 And he saith unto me, Write, Blessed are they which are called unto the marriage supper of the Lamb. And he saith unto me, These are the true sayings of God.

No one is invited to the supper before the marriage of the Lamb, or any other marriage of the people of Israel.

In Christ: Phillip

Thanks again for all your time and all your replies. You have said many things that I regard as prime examples of what faith in Christ means. I know you know Him and reverence Him. At times it sort of gets harder to keep dialoging with someone over issues of diagreement because we do share a common faith. I worry if I have been brash or short or whatever so I apologize if anything has seemed that way. I just have to sit down and type my thoughts and it's not like actually being with the other person which is always better.Yet I think the issues we have been speaking with each other about are important and whether or not the Church will be present for the duration of the age or not is one of the most important issues the Church is facing right now in my opinion if for no other reason than proper preparation. But I've said all that before. Meanwhile, in my studies I came across a common flaw in some of the early thinking and teaching that the early proponents of the pre-trib view taught and advocated. This flaw has been straightened out to a degree but at the same time it still seems to be present in some parts of pretribulationism today. I saw it in Gaebelein's comments you shared. It concerns the issue of who would be present in heaven from the pre-trib view after the rapture. In my opinion, it ties in with when the Christian Church would be present after being raptured. To make my point, I took three of the paragraphs from what Gaebelein wrote and then took excerpts from two of those paragraphs from which to make my point.

Gaebelein

In chapter 18:20 we heard the words addressed to heaven, "Rejoice over her, thou heaven, and ye holy apostles and prophets, for God hath avenged you on her." And now we see heaven rejoicing. "I heard as it were a great voice of a great multitude in heaven saying, "Hallelujah." Hallelujah means "Praise ye Jehovah." This Hebrew word is not found elsewhere in the New Testament. Four times this word of praise is found in the beginning of this chapter; the Hallelujah times for heaven and earth are imminent. The book of Psalms closes with many hallelujahs; the blessed time which the Psalms so often anticipate, when the earth is judged in righteousness and the glory of the Lord is manifested, is now at hand. The praise here is on account of the righteousness of God exhibited in the judgment of the great whore "which did corrupt the earth with her fornication" and because the blood of God's servants shed by her is now avenged. The great multitude whose Hallelujah is heard first must be the company of martyrs who died during the tribulation. The souls under the altar and their brethren which were slain later utter this praise now. They are seen as a distinct company from the twenty-four elders. A second hallelujah is uttered by them, while the smoke of the destroyed city goes up forever and ever.

The whole redeemed company, Old and New Testament saints, add their amen and hallelujah to the outburst of praise on account of the execution of the righteous judgment. And they worship God, for it is of the righteousness which accomplished the destruction of the great whore. In the midst of this wonderful and impressive worship-scene the throne begins to be heard. A voice from the throne said: "Give Praise unto God all ye His servants and ye that fear Him both small and great." And the command is at once obeyed. John hears the fourth hallelujah and it is the greatest, the most magnificent. It is the great hallelujah-chorus of heaven. Like the voice of many roaring waters, like the voice of mighty thunderings, a great multitude saith, "Hallelujah for the Lord our God Omnipotent reigneth."

Who is this great multitude? In the first verse we heard the Hallelujah of the martyred companies. The twenty-four elders and four living creatures did not join in this first hallelujah. Their hallelujah followed. And now the great outburst of a great multitude. This multitude includes all the redeemed in glory. And they rejoice and give glory for an additional reason which is made known for the first time in this book. The marriage of the Lamb is about to be consummated. "Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honor to Him, for the marriage of the Lamb is come and His wife has made herself ready." The harlot, which claimed to be the bride, being judged, the true bride of Christ is seen in glory. And it is the marriage of the Lamb. His joy is now filled full for He receives her, who is bone of His bone and flesh of His flesh. The second Man, the last Adam, is joined to her who is to rule and reign with Him. (END)

From the second paragraph above, the statement I took notice of is,

"The whole redeemed company, Old and New Testament saints, add their amen and hallelujah to the outburst of praise on account of the execution of the righteous judgment."

From the third paragraph above, the statement I took notice of is,

"Who is this great multitude? In the first verse we heard the Hallelujah of the martyred companies. The twenty-four elders and four living creatures did not join in this first hallelujah. Their hallelujah followed. And now the great outburst of a great multitude. This multitude includes all the redeemed in glory."

These quotes indicate a belief that the Old Testament saints would be in heaven after a pre-trib rapture - the whole company of the redeemed would include the Old Testament saints and the New Testament Church. It logically follows that the Old Testament saints would be there because they had been resurrected and translated and caught up to heaven at a pre-trib rapture. This was taught by Darby and the other early advocates of his views regarding the OT saints even though it overturned most of the thinking and biblical scholarship of the previous centuries of the Church regarding the timing of the raising of Israel's Old Testament saints. What they taught was error plain and simple and it can be shown that it was.

Job may have made the earliest reference to a latter day resurrection when he stated,

25 - For I know that my redeemer liveth, and that He shall stand at the latter day upon the earth.

26 - And though after my skin worms destroy this body, in my flesh I shall see God. (Job 19:25-26)

This reference to a "latter day" and a latter day resurrection is likely the Hebraic origin of what came to be a belief in the resurrection of the "last day." It's what Martha had in mind when she said of her brother to Jesus, "I know that he will rise again in the resurrection on the last day." (John 11:24) It's what Jesus had in mind when he stated,

39 "And this is the will of Him who sent Me, that of all that He has given Me I lose nothing, but raise it up on the last day.

40 - "For this is the will of My Father, that every one who beholds the Son, and believes in Him, may have eternal life; and I Myself will raise him up on the last day."

44 - "No one can come to Me, unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day.

54 - "He who eats My flesh and drinks My blood has eternal life; and I will raise Him up on the last day.

Returning to the Old Testament, Daniel made what many commentators believe to the clearest statement in the Old Testament regarding the resurrection.

1 - Now at that time Michael, the great prince who stands guard over the sons of your people, will arise. And there will be a time of distress such as never occurred since there was a nation until that time; and at that time your people, everyone who is found written in the book, will be rescued.

2 - And many of those who sleep in the dust of the ground will awake, these to everlasting life, but the others to disgrace and everlasting contempt (Daniel 12:1-2).

It's clearly a reference to the resurrection in line with the belief that some resurrected will go to everlasting life and some to everlasting contempt (See Romans 2:6-8).

Yet Daniel places this resurrection, which would naturally include Israel's righteous, as occurring after the the "time of distress such as never occurred since there was a nation." The time of distress is seen in verse 1 and is followed by the resurrection in verse 2. This "time of distress" such as never occurred" match almost exactly the words of Jesus - "for then there will be a great tribulation, "such as has not occurred." They're both speaking of the tribulation and the resurrection of Israel's righteous was to come after this time of distress and was commonly looked on by the Jews of Jesus' day as going to occur at the last day. If the resurrection of Israel's righteous is truly going to occur at the last day AFTER the time of distress then good bro, it's NOT POSSIBLE for the whole company of the redeemed, Old and New Testament saints, to be in heaven before the final tribulation since the resurrection of the Old Testament saints is is to occur after the final tribulation at the end of the age at the last day. Gaebelein was writing in error when he wrote that they would be present in heaven before this.

Daniel was told his own resurrection would be at the end of the age,

13 - "But as for you, go your way to the end; then you will enter into rest and rise again for your allotted portion at the end of the age" (Daniel 12:13).

So Daniel can't possibly be in heaven seven years or three and a half years before the end of the age before the final tribulation even begins. Daniel will rise again at the "end" of the age with the rest of Israel's righteous.
In an encapsulated form, Isaiah chapters 23-27 cover the final time of distress and tribulation and the final deliverance of Israel. It speaks of the Lord laying waste to the entire earth and the earth reeling to and fro like a drunkard while the inhabitatnts of the earth are punished for their many iniquities. It speaks of the moon being abashed and the sun ashamed which Jesus mentioned in Matt 24:29 when describing the events at the end of the tribulation. So chapters 23-27 certainly deal with Israel's final distress (the tribulation) before its final deliverance. And the resurrection is brought to light in these chapters also as a comfort to Israel in the midst of her distress.

19 - Your dead will live; their corpses will rise. You who lie in the dust (see Daniel 12:2), awake and shout for joy, for your dew is as the dawn, and the earth will give birth to the departed spirits. (Isaiah 26:19)

So Israel's righteous dead being raised was prophesied to them as a comfort to her in her distress. Isaiah's own resurrection at the end of the age, along with Daniel, would be in view here but as we have seen this would be at the "last day."

Also,

7 - And on this mountain He will swallow up the covering which is over all peoples, even the veil which is stretched over all nations.

8 - He will swallow up death for all time, and the Lord God will wipe away tears from all faces, and He will remove the reproach of His people from all the earth; for the Lord has spoken.

9 - And it will be said in that day, "Behold this is our God for whom we have waited that He might save us. This is the Lord for whom we have waited; let us rejoice and be gladin His salvation." (Isaiah 25:7-9)

These chapters describe the tribulational anguish of the nations and of Israel yet it gives a post-tribulational setting to the resurrection after the anguish. So it's NOT POSSIBLE for the Old Testament saints of Israel to be in heaven before the tribulation even starts. It can be documented that from its beginnings it taught that the Old Testament saints would be resurrected along with the New Testament Church at the pre-trib rapture. In 1937 Alexander Resse published his bombastic work "The Approaching Advent of Christ." As polemic as it was in parts, the book did show beyond any reasonable doubt that the OT saints were not going to be resurrected until the end of the age and not seven years before. The book had a solid impact and exposed a major discrepancy in the pre-trib view regarding the resurrection of Israel's righteous. So pretribulationism was caught in a quandry of sorts and they changed the time of the resurrection of the OT saints to the end of the age. But this was just a change back to the correct way that the Church had always seen this resurrection. It was pretribulationism that took a new and unchartered route and then over a hundred years later in 1937 were compelled to do a mid stream change of direction. So from the 1830s up until about 1937, the pre-trib view taught error regarding the timing of the resurrection of Israel's righteous. I'm not sure if everyone that advocates the pre-trib view knows of this major change that had to be made if the pre-trib camp was to maintain its scholarly credibility. It's likely this is more known in academic circles than it is at the popular level of the man in the pew. If it is to remain true to the scriptures while maintaining its own view, pretribulationsim now has to advocate that the OT saints who were saved by their faith in looking ahead and believing the promises of a coming Savior etc. and who were eventually somehow and some way cleansed by the blood of Christ are to lie in the 'dust of the ground' for another seven years after the Church cleansed through the same blood of Christ through their faith is raptured away seven years before. It might also be asked if Darby and his brethren were being used to restore long lost Biblical truth why did they get the timing of the resurrection of Israel's righteous so wrong?

Back to Isaiah 25:7-9,

7 - And on this mountain He will swallow up the covering which is over all peoples, even the veil which is stretched over all nations.

8 - He will swallow up death for all time, and the Lord God will wipe away tears from all faces, and He will remove the reproach of His people from all the earth; for the Lord has spoken.

9 - And it will be said in that day, "Behold this is our God for whom we have waited that He might save us. This is the Lord for whom we have waited; let us rejoice and be glad in His salvation." (Isaiah 25:7-9)

Israel's post-tribulational deliverance when death is swallowed up for all time for them is seen by Paul as the same time that death is swallowed up for all time for the New Testament believers,

54 - But when this perishable will have put on the imperishable, and this mortal will have put on immortality, then will come about the saying that is written, "Death is swallowed up in victory." (I Cor 15:54)

If Israel's final deliverance and the resurrection of its righteous is beyond any doubt post-tribulational at the end of the age might it follow in line with Paul's OT quotes when describing the transl;ation of the Church's saints that the Church's final deliverance when death is swallowed up for all time is post-tribulational also? Paul unambigously tied the two together. This was always seen by the Church as the salvation to occur at the "last day."

Yeah I know, another long post. Perhpas you haven't tired of me. I hope you have a good and blessed day.

You wrote,

To press this simple point about those who receive Christ in the tribulation as lacking in some way is frankly naive. It smacks of trying to prove the post trib position. Why try to prove anything. Go back and reread this thread all of these points have been answered already. Why press one point. It is a simple question to answer in any case. No one on this site invented the pre tribulation position and no one invented the post tribulation position either. (End)

I was getting a feeling that I had labored over that one point long enough and had brought it up an adequate number of times. Yet the condescension and even mockery of the men of God and scholars who came before us in the Church that was voiced to me was a little much. Especially when it was combined with the false claim that I am not remotely interested in using scripture when making my points. So I thought I would leave things with the "scriptural" question remains. Perhaps I could have used another point besides that particular one but whatever.

You wrote,

Why are you even concerned for Israel? The Father Himself will take care of his elect in Israel by his own hand. He will not use a man in it. It is a vanity of the church to believe that it has a hand in saving Israel. It does not have a hand in it. (End)

Why am I even concerned for Israel? Because I believe the Church will be present during the time of Jacob's trouble and in God's wisdom and plan the Church has a destiny and calling to be used by God to bear before Israel a compelling testimony made even stronger by an appeal to the Jewish prophets. A Church willing to take on this task would need to be a prepared Church willing to lay aside its own interests for the sake of others besides. themselves. Your statement to why even worry about Israel is one of the most unfortunate attitudes that I believe the position that the Church won't be here can foster. I put it near the top of the list. I mentioned before that believing God can use the Church as a prophetic witness to Israel is usually not even a blip on the pre-trib radar. The time of Jacob's trouble is just a minor inconvenience for a already raptured Church so why worry about Israel the thinking goes. If we were present why couldn't we interpret Israel's crisis to them from the scriptures in the light of the covenant and prophecy? God used a man to have a hand in my salvation. A complete stranger approached me on the street and began to speak with me and witness to me. He was an ambassador and witness for Christ that helped open my eyes to the reality of Christ. If the Church is present then why can't we be ambassadors for Christ during this time? Of course God was the author of my salvation but it's not out of bounds to say He used a man to help mediate His grace to me through the word and witness the stranger spoke to me. It's not at all a vanity to believe that a largely Gentile and prepared Church fully aware of what is coming can have a hand in helping open Israel's eyes when the time comes. Who is it that will have insight and give understanding to the many (Daniel 11:33)? Who are these wise who have insight and what is it they understand?

You wrote,

Lastly because the pre tribulation view foolishly attributes to the Holy Spirit the words "taken out of the way" to mean that the Spirit Himself is taken out of the way, does not mean that the whole teaching is flawed altogether. The Holy Spirit cannot be taken out of the way. He fills the whole universe! (End)

If one were to be examining many of the beliefs that now accompany pretribulationism and found them to be unscriptural I think it would shed some negative light on the pre-trib doctrine itself. I don't see how it couldn't. If so many things can be pointed out that seem wrong that accompany the doctrine then it would cause the original doctrine itself to be looked at again I would think.

Thank you.

Daniel 12:9 And he said : for the words are closed up and sealed till the time of the end .

The words closed up are the mystery revealed to Paul and to "you-ward, all the saints by Paul, "Christ in you the hope of Glory".

"Go thy way"; This in truth is the way of all mankind, they must of their own go thy way, which is live until death, which Daniel must go the same way. "Go thy way, Daniel", live until you rest or abide in the grave, until the time of the end, then you will stand again. It's a simple statement, How Daniel is in heaven until the Thirteen Hundred and thirty five days of the Tribulation are come, mid-trib, is Daniel's resurrection, as for his being in heaven before this, "to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord."

This in no way puts the pre-trib in any position of being unable to prevent before Daniels resurrection.

There is much you have written Docs, it would take much more than just a few words to bring apologetics for Pre-trib; I will keep much of your words in mind and seek truth to bring; (1 Thessalonians 4:16-18 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. Wherefore comfort one another with these words.) -to the forefront of, "caught up together". Which in no way takes away from Israel's conformity to God's plan for "all Israel". If God needs any to bring this about, The army that comes with Him, The Church on white horses, will be enough I am sure. The 144,000 will be enough evangelists for the task, since they are addressing their own countryman.

It is good to be sharpened by iron, and yours is worthy. Bless you brother, I see Christ in you because I see Christ in me.

IN Christ: Phillip

From the pre-trib view, the rapture and catching up which you referenced in I Thess 4:16-18 has always been believed to include a physical resurrection which in turn allows those resurrected to enter heaven along with saints living at that time and enables them to participate in the marriage of the Lamb. Those dead and absent from the body still would have to have their physical bodies resurrected to enter heaven and the marriage. Since Daniel's body will not be resurrected until the very end of the age (Daniel 12:13) it would not be possible for him to be present before the end of the age. To be absent from the body and present with the Lord still leaves one's physical body in need of resurrection to be present at the marriage.

Thank you for your compliments and your dialog. I don't have a monopoly on your time for sure but you have responded and I appreciate it. I continue to believe God's rich blessings will be upon you in the days ahead.

You said,

"Has come", "is come" makes no difference because the marriage of the Lamb happens in heaven, and when He comes on the White horse to pronounce judgment on the nations, those that are His army are the same as the bride, "clothed In white, linen all white and clean. The marriage has already happened, "has come", "is come", else how could his army the body of Christ His Bride come at the same time He does riding a great white horse, they riding on white horses also clothed in white linen. The two are the same, "the Bride of Christ His Church His body", His army.

Me: So the marriage of the Lamb occurs in heaven.

You also said,

Then there are those that will be invited to the marriage supper of the Lamb, of which occurs on this earth.

Me: So you believe besides the marriage of the Lamb that occurs in heaven yet there is another marriage of the Lamb that occurs on earth? Is this a completely different marriage or is just a part and continuation of the first marriage?

If the marriage on earth is a completely different occurrence does this mean God will have two wives or brides? How is this exegetically proven? As my original post stated, I remain confused and somewhat bewildered by beliefs such as these that accompany the pre-trib view.

Thanks for your time and as I mentioned in my other post I don't have a monopoly on your time or thoughts.

Bless you good bro.

The marriage brings the son's of God to the Father's House.

The marriage supper shows what the Son has done for the Father, the marriage is in heaven, the supper is on this earth, the celebration of the reign of Christ and His Bride, Those that are invited to the supper are not the Bride, then Christ on the Throne of David. All that happens after the supper is God's judgment on the unrighteous nations and those that took the mark of the beast. The sealed 144,000 will evangelize those that are left in millennial reign and Christ and the Body of Christ will rule from the new Jerusalem until Satan is loosed and destroyed with those that were not evangelized unto the Son of God during the 1000 year reign, then the Great white Throne judgment of God and the new heaven and earth and so shall we be with the Lord forever.

In Christ: Phillip

You wrote,

Hi docs,

I appreciate your noncontentious loving way of disscussing the issue.

You have done a great Job with presenting the post trib view!

Me: You complimented me on things I usually am worrying about that I haven't done when posting. It makes me aware of my warts and flaws which folks don't see when all they see is one posting but thank you.

You know there was a guy in a church once and the congregation gave him a medal for exemplary humility and then had to take the medal back from him because he kept wearing it. I never quite agreed with the reason they wanted it back from me but they did. Imagine that!

Godspeed this day.

Quote: """ The tense is aorist indicative active third person singular. There is no room in that for a past tense interpretation. Neither does the aorist conditional tense in this instance define precisely that a future fixed period of time is inferred. Ordinarily the aorist third person singular would denote a continuous presence. Yet it must be clear from Scripture more generally that there is a moment in time when the marriage of the Lamb takes place."""

The word, "wife" speaks to your assumption that Rev 19:7 is speaking to the marriage not yet come. If the marriage of the Lamb has not already taken place in this ref to, "has come/is come," then the Lamb would still be in the presence of His Bride, not His Wife. Specific to the Jewish wedding reference of the Bride Groom already taken the Bride to His Father's house and the marriage, the Bride and Groom already coming forth from the Bridal Chamber, consummating and confirming the completion as Husband and wife of the contract of the parents. I am the parent of me the Bride, confirming the contract of salvation with my mouth, agreeing with the Bride Groom for our marriage, I said yes to His proposal and contract. of the two becoming One. The Parent of the Groom being God the Father, the price already paid for the Bride by the Son of God, paying the price, dowry, in full on the Cross. Waiting for the Groom to come and catch me away unto the Father's House.

In Christ: Phillip

Quote;"If one were to be examining many of the beliefs that now accompany pretribulationism and found them to be unscriptural I think it would shed some negative light on the pre-trib doctrine itself. I don't see how it couldn't. If so many things can be pointed out that seem wrong that accompany the doctrine then it would cause the original doctrine itself to be looked at again I would think."

If this is the case,why do postrib teachers omit the Pretrib verses and take mat 24 COMPLETELY out of context,omit the antichrist's power to kill ALL the saints during the tribulation,and totally misconstrue the 10 virgins,and the groom/bride thing as a whole,and fail to reconcile the "escape" verses,and ignore that the bride has become the wife in heaven?

How in the world do postrib adherents reconcile this ignoring of scripture?

I am compelled to ask your same question....."If so many things can be pointed out that seem wrong that accompany the doctrine then it would cause the original doctrine itself to be looked at again I would think."

Stop trying to act like pretrib is so far fetched and erroneous simply on your statements about it that are not even remotely true.

You cannot objectively accept the pretrib verses,which you have been shown.

Consequent to the postrib doctrine is a preoccupation,not of Jesus' return,but with "suffering",and,Cliches of "7th trump","2nd coming","1st resurrection",which in your mind,erases the pretrib verses.

It is perplexing indeed,that the same scriptures postrib uses, harmonizes with pretib perfectly,and,with continuity.

The postrib camp has not only precariously placed itself in an attitude of false suffering,but a mockery of the precious saints that are looking with joy to the promise of the groom's return for his bride.

I wrote,

"If one were to be examining many of the beliefs that now accompany pretribulationism and found them to be unscriptural I think it would shed some negative light on the pre-trib doctrine itself. I don't see how it couldn't. If so many things can be pointed out that seem wrong that accompany the doctrine then it would cause the original doctrine itself to be looked at again I would think."

You replied,

If this is the case,why do postrib teachers omit the Pretrib verses and take mat 24 COMPLETELY out of context,omit the antichrist's power to kill ALL the saints during the tribulation,and totally misconstrue the 10 virgins,and the groom/bride thing as a whole,and fail to reconcile the "escape" verses,and ignore that the bride has become the wife in heaven?

How in the world do postrib adherents reconcile this ignoring of scripture?

Me: I would think that disagreeing with the meaning of the passages you mention is not the same thing as omitting or ignoring them. I've never heard these passages ignored or omitted by those who are not pre-trib, they just don't view them as you do.

You wrote,

I am compelled to ask your same question....."If so many things can be pointed out that seem wrong that accompany the doctrine then it would cause the original doctrine itself to be looked at again I would think."

Stop trying to act like pretrib is so far fetched and erroneous simply on your statements about it that are not even remotely true.

Me: If I have done as you say, you might want to check out your opening paragraph above. None of your statements in that paragraph regarding post-trib teachers are remotely true.

You wrote,

You cannot objectively accept the pretrib verses,which you have been shown.

Me: What I think you mean is that since I disagree with your take on the verses you see me as not being able to objectively accept them. Not so!

You wrote,

Consequent to the postrib doctrine is a preoccupation,not of Jesus' return,but with "suffering",and,Cliches of "7th trump","2nd coming","1st resurrection",which in your mind,erases the pretrib verses.

Me: You seem to believe many caricatures regarding post-trib people. It's probably a condition that exists on both sides of the argument. That's why the different camps need to try and speak with each other more. I don't recognize these attitudes in the people you say it is present in. The second coming of Christ has always been the blessed hope of the Church and it is none the less than that for those who believe Christ will come again only once at His second coming. The preoccupation I have seen is that with the belief that the Church will be present until the end of the age it will also be the greatest time of soul winning perhaps in the history of the Church. If these posttrib people are preoccupied with suffering you could have fooled me. They're just aware that a Church present during this time will also suffer but it will be a prepared Church having set aside its own interests and is willing to love not its life unto death for the sake of others during this time (Rev 12:11). The harvest of souls during this time is why they believe the proper preparation is essential and begins now and should be a preoccupation. And a prepared Church who will find itself in a wilderness (Rev 12:17) can also be a understanding witness to Israel in the wilderness (Ezekiel 20:35, Rev 12:13-14). Part of the overcoming motivation of the Church during this time will be its firm assurance and blessed hope that the Savior will soon come for His Bride and take them to Himself.

Meanwhile, 7th trump, 2nd coming, and 1st resurrection are all biblical terms and phrases. What else would one use?

You wrote,

It is perplexing indeed,that the same scriptures postrib uses, harmonizes with pretib perfectly,and,with continuity.

Me: Not really. Posttrib believers realize it is IMPOSSIBLE for the Church to be in heaven seven years before the end of the age because the resurrection of the righteous OT saints of Israel at the end of the age (Daniel 12:1-2, 13, Isaiah 26:19, 25:8) coincides with the resurrection and translation of the Christian Church (see Isaiah 25:8 compared with I Cor 15:54-55). When death is swallowed up for for all time for Israel's righteous will be the same time it is swallowed up for all time for the Christian Church and saints - at the end of the age.

You wrote,

The postrib camp has not only precariously placed itself in an attitude of false suffering, but a mockery of the precious saints that are looking with joy to the promise of the groom's return for his bride.

Me: Ah, that suffering thing. You seem to have an avoidance of it or something, I'm not really sure why you speak of it the way you do. What do you mean by an attitude of false suffering? Posttrib believers have an awareness that the times at the end of the age will not be the best of times and will involve suffering for the Church. It's hardly an attitude of false suffering whatever you mean by that. I suggested before that the two sides need to sit down and talk more and your statements here reinforce that idea. You seem largely in the dark what the posttrib believers are really preoccupied with and what motivates them. Whatever they are they are not preoccupied with being gone before they suffer but rather with being prepared to accept their destiny and calling as the end of the age approaches. Your statement that they are mocking the precious saints looking with joy to the groom's return for the bride is among the largest of your misconceptions. They are among the strongest believers out there in regards to anticipating the groom's return for His Bride. It's always been the blessed hope of the Church.

""""The word, "wife" speaks to your assumption that Rev 19:7 is speaking to the marriage not yet come. If the marriage of the Lamb has not already taken place in this ref to, "has come/is come," then the Lamb would still be in the presence of His Bride, not His Wife.""""

Great point.
Also,if one looks it up in the greek,it is all past tense
Now,if one combines this with Mat 25,(groom/virgins/chamber/door shut/fools left behind) then look at Jesus promise at the last supper("....till i drink it anew with you in my father's kingdom"

Then the promise "...I go and prepare a place for you (in heaven)""

Crystal clear.
Pretrib rapture.

docs """I would think that disagreeing with the meaning of the passages you mention is not the same thing as omitting or ignoring them. I've never heard these passages ignored or omitted by those who are not pre-trib, they just don't view them as you do. """"

Where is an example of a in depth postrib teaching on the bride/groom??...or...look at who IS teaching on it.

docs """If these posttrib people are preoccupied with suffering you could have fooled me. """"

ask yourself why would those that believe the entire church goes through the tribulation,NOT BE preoccupied with suffering?It is the table that the postrib doctrine sets.
I can not believe,that anyone would not agree that postribbers are preoccupied with suffering.It is like a six gun that is pulled on those watching and waiting.
You honestly have never,ever heard the phrase"I am just so worried about those escapist(implying those waiting on their Lord are nominal weak believers)".."They will just completely fall apart when the AC arrives and Jesus does not""...IOW they are not the suffering champions that the postribbers are.

docs """Meanwhile, 7th trump, 2nd coming, and 1st resurrection are all biblical terms and phrases. What else would one use?"""

Sorry but those phrases do not erase content and context.
Which proves my point that the postrib doctrine is clich'e centered.

docs """it is IMPOSSIBLE for the Church to be in heaven seven years before the end of the age because the resurrection of the righteous OT saints of Israel at the end of the age (Daniel 12:1-2, 13, Isaiah 26:19, 25:8) coincides with the resurrection and translation of the Christian Church (see Isaiah 25:8 compared with I Cor 15:54-55). When death is swallowed up for for all time for Israel's righteous will be the same time it is swallowed up for all time for the Christian Church and saints - at the end of the age."""

If you are going to build on catchphrases,you are going to be misled..

Here is an end of the age at the death of Jesus;

"25 nor yet that he should offer himself often, as the high priest entereth into the holy place year by year with blood not his own;

26 else must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once at the end of the ages hath he been manifested to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself.

27 And inasmuch as it is appointed unto men once to die, and after this cometh judgment;

28 so Christ also, having been once offered to bear the sins of many, shall appear a second time, apart from sin, to them that wait for him, unto salvation." heb 9

docs """You seem largely in the dark what the posttrib believers are really preoccupied with and what motivates them."""

They believe the church goes through the GT.Why would they not be preoccupied with the same?

This ,in fact,is their error.They are GT/suffering/catchphrase centered as opposed to Groom/bride centered.

docs """They are among the strongest believers out there in regards to anticipating the groom's return for His Bride."""

To my knowledge,I have never seen any teaching by the postrib adherents on the concept of the bride/groom,or mat 25.
You guys need to ask yourself why those teachers avoid any of this,or anything placing believers in heaven.
The postrib teaching, imo,took their position before examining the pretrib verses.
Why else would they be forced to minimise the words of Jesus?

......and yes you do seem to be genuine in your beliefs and I do respect that.

BTW,thank you for your manners in discussing this subject.
Outside of the priesthood study, end times has to be the most fascinating.

docs """ Since Daniel's body will not be resurrected until the very end of the age """

This is a rabbit trail.

You need to look at this without the spin.

"13 But go thou thy way till the end be: for thou shalt rest, and stand in thy lot at the end of the days."

Many were raised from the dead alongside Jesus when he arose.No reason to believe daniel was nnot one of them.

docs """I remain confused and somewhat bewildered by beliefs such as these that accompany the pre-trib view. """

Nope.I am pretrib and have no such view.It all happens in heaven.The raptured church,those left behind and martyered,the dead in christ resurrected,the 2 witnesses,and the 144 k are all in heaaven and all attend the marriage supper.

There are no saints on earth by about the 1/2 point of the GT.
Many,many Jews will not take the mark,be beheaded,and will also attend the MS.

The rapture is the harvest of the saints dead and alive.
The GT is the harvest of those that refuse the mark,the 144k,and the 2 witnesses.(all the aforementioned attend the MS)
The 2nd resurrection is the final harvest for those in the "book" and for the ones not in the book for the LOF.

Hi bro,

I was a little suprised by your taking up of this subject again but it's no real problem. Since you wish to discuss it more and took time to make a few more comments perhaps I can make a few points also in the spirit of give and take.

You reminded me that before I wrote,

"I would think that disagreeing with the meaning of the passages you mention is not the same thing as omitting or ignoring them. I've never heard these passages ignored or omitted by those who are not pre-trib, they just don't view them as you do."

To which you repled,

"Where is an example of a in depth postrib teaching on the bride/groom??...or...look at who IS teaching on it."

Me: I may just be for myself but since the early days of my Christian life I've received teachings on the body of Christian believers being the Bride of Christ. It's been a foundational thing that has accompanied me throughout my Christian life. Here and there and at various times and meetings etc. this spiritual reality of being the bride has been taught. I realize now that some of this teaching was from a pretrib view but if I remember correctly, the subject has usually been taught to me in connection with the second coming of Christ. Before the 1830s and the appearance of pretribulationism, it was believed that at the time Christ's second coming is when He will come for His body of believers or bride and the marriage is consumated after that at the marriage of the Lamb. Because it's always been there for me, I haven't really thought about it and therefore I guess I'm not really aware of a lack of teaching on the postrib view on the subject of the bride/groom etc. It's always been a part of my Christian life and what I have been taught. If you see a lack of teaching on the web from a posttrib view then perhaps you should look for teaching on the second coming etc. which throughout church history was commonly assumed and believed to be the time when the groom would come for His bride. Like I said, I wasn't aware of a lack of teaching on the posttrib view of the bride/groom etc. but two times now it's taken me less than 20 seconds to find teachings on the web regarding the church being the bride of Christ etc. Even on the sermonindex listings of audio sermons (under Sermon Title) there's a message by Art Katz on "A Bride Adorned for the Bridegroom." Perhaps you might give that a listen since it's so close and convenient. Meanwhile, the church people and teachers I have been around have laid a solid foundation regarding the identity of the Bride and the Bride's destiny.

I wrote,

"If these posttrib people are preoccupied with suffering you could have fooled me."

You replied in your recent post,

"Ask yourself why would those that believe the entire church goes through the tribulation, could NOT BE preoccupied with suffering? It is the table that the postrib doctrine sets."

Me: That seems a broad brushing to lump a entire set of believers together with one broad stroke as if u know exactly all of their motives. A posttrib believer would likely tell you their supposed "preoccupation with suffering" arises from a sober scriptural assessment of what things will be like for the saints during the final days of earth's present history. It's beyond doubt in my opinion that the final generation of believers will be a generation under duress and persecution and even martydom. In Revelation those underneath the altar who had been slain because of the word of God are seen crying out for vengeance - "And there was given to each of them a white robe; and they were told that they should rest for a lttle while longer, until the number of their fellow servants and their brethren who were to be killed even as they had been, should be completed also." (Rev 6:11) Until the time of their vindication comes more of their brethren are to be killed and this is the time of the very ends of the age so a last generation of believers will suffer even unto martydom. We see also that "the dragon was enraged with the woman, and went off to make war with the rest of her offspring, who keep the commandments of God and hold to the testimony of Jesus" (Rev 12:17). That is a portayal of Christian believers under persecution and suffering. What's wrong with taking a sober assessment of what is described for the saints regarding the last of times? Yet vven among these descriptions we also see a startling portrayal that they will overcome " by the blood of the Lamb and because of the word of their testimony, and they did not love their life even unto death" (Rev 12:11). So what is wrong with sober and diligent prepration for what is to come? Will the last generation of believers be involved in suffering or won't they? Vigilance before hand so as to make way for sober preparation should hardly be labelled a "preoccupation with suffering." As part of the beliefs that accompany the pretrib view is the belief that much of pretribulationism advocates which is that these overcomers won't be part of the Church even though the foundation of their overcoming is based on the blood of the Lamb! Present day pretribulationism in many quarters teaches that tribulation believers won't be part of the Church even though they have a word of testimony and keep the commandments of God and hold to the testimony of Jesus (Rev 12:11) and have had thier robes washed white in the blood of the Lamb (Rev 7:13-14). Darby and his associates of the 1830s were the first to ever propose that tribulation believers in Christ would not be part of the Church. They faced a dilemma of sorts because even though the Church was supposedly to be gone and raptured during the tribulation Revelation and other places still vividly portrays a strong group of believers in Christ overcoming in the midst of their persecutions and martydom. So a brand new thing altogether began to be taught that said that tribulation believers in Christ are not part of the Church but part of a separate people of God. That was as serious a misstep in my opinion as any of those who are said to be preoccupied with suffering.

You wrote,

"I can not believe,that anyone would not agree that postribbers are preoccupied with suffering. It is like a six gun that is pulled on those watching and waiting."

Me: Can it be asked if pretribulationism is "preoccupied with escaping" and is focused entirely on what God is going to do for them and the blessings they are going to get? Versus being prepared to be a witness to the world and Israel during the tribulation as they love not their own lives unto the death by accepting this calling? That sort of leaves a bad taste in my mouth asking it that way. I wouldn't want to put everyone in a single category because I don't know all of the motives of pretrib advocates. Yet if it is barbed to hear it asked if pretrib advocates are "preoccupied with escaping" and what God is going to do for them because it's an unfair picture that is being painted then I can assure you that the accusation that posttrib believers are "preoccupied with suffering" is just as far from reality.

You wrote,

"You honestly have never,ever heard the phrase," I am just so worried about those escapist(implying those waiting on their Lord are nominal weak believers)".."They will just completely fall apart when the AC arrives and Jesus does not""...IOW they are not the suffering champions that the postribbers are."

Me: I suppose I have heard these types of things somewhere at some time though I couldn't pinpoint exactly when or where. I know for sertsain that posttreib believers don;t see thmselves as champions of suffering above others. Nothing could be further from the truth and it's a grief to see such false and malicious caricatures still have sway in the body of Christ. Yet, are you implying that these type of untrue and mocking statements toward others don't come from the pretrib camp also? I've heard pretrib believers mocking posttrib believers also. But they never wrongly characterize or say negative things about those who believe the Church will be here for the tribulation, rigtht? Only postrib people do this type of thing, right? What's good for the goose is good for the gander as they say.

In response to your criticism of posttrib people using so many biblical phrases I wrote,

"Meanwhile, 7th trump, 2nd coming, and 1st resurrection are all biblical terms and phrases. What else would one use?"

To which you have replied,

"Sorry but those phrases do not erase content and context.
Which proves my point that the postrib doctrine is clich'e centered."

Me: Do you use biblical phrases they way you do because you see them in a certain content and context? Would you criticize posttrib believers if they didn't use biblical phrases to describe their view? Since they are criticized for using biblical phrases and terms what type of criticism might come their way if they didn't use biblical phrases and terms? What other type of language do you suggest they might use? I see the principal of playing a joyful tune and no one dance and playing a mournful dirge and no one weeps.

I wrote,

"It is IMPOSSIBLE for the Church to be in heaven seven years before the end of the age because the resurrection of the righteous OT saints of Israel at the end of the age (Daniel 12:1-2, 13, Isaiah 26:19, 25:8) coincides with the resurrection and translation of the Christian Church (see Isaiah 25:8 compared with I Cor 15:54-55). When death is swallowed up for for all time for Israel's righteous will be the same time it is swallowed up for all time for the Christian Church and saints - at the end of the age."

You replied,

If you are going to build on catchphrases,you are going to be misled..

"Here is an end of the age at the death of Jesus;

"25 nor yet that he should offer himself often, as the high priest entereth into the holy place year by year with blood not his own;

26 else must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once at the end of the ages hath he been manifested to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself.

27 And inasmuch as it is appointed unto men once to die, and after this cometh judgment;

28 so Christ also, having been once offered to bear the sins of many, shall appear a second time, apart from sin, to them that wait for him, unto salvation." heb 9

Me: I'm stymied again I guess. I've never thought of using biblical terms and having them referred to as catchphrases. I suppose you mean the phrase "the end of the age." It's a biblical term. What else would I or others use if we are Christian believers? However, your switching of the subject to catchphrases shows me you likely missed entirely the point I made in the paragraph above. See Isaiah 25:8 and its context at the end of the final seven years and compare it with I Cor 15:54-55. That is mainly what my paragraph was about.

I wrote,

"You seem largely in the dark what the posttrib believers are really preoccupied with and what motivates them."

Your reply,

"They believe the church goes through the GT.Why would they not be preoccupied with the same?"

"This ,in fact,is their error.They are GT/suffering/catchphrase centered as opposed to Groom/bride centered."

Me: I don't necessarily believe it and wouldn't phrase it this way in all situations but if pretribulationism believes it is going to escape a final time of suffering why can't it be legitimately asked if pretrib believers are not "preoccupied with escaping" and the blessings that are going to come to them when they are raptured? Since you have taken the liberty to describe, wrongly describe, the motivations of postrib believers what does the question do when asked in reverse of pretrib believers? If it is wrong to characterize all pretrib believers as preoccupied with escaping then perhaps it is a clue that it is wrong to characterize all postrib believers as preoccupied with suffering. If the Church is indeed to suffer as the final convulsions of this age occur then accepting the clear scriptural portrayal of this suffering and preparing for it would be part of loving not one's own life even unto death. If this is to be then believing against it might be a form of loving one's own interest and life above the Church's true eschatological destiny which would really be a quarrel against God's providence and wisdom. That may not be entirely correct but it seems worth some discussion.

Your assertion of posttrib believrs being GT/suffering/ catchpharse centered as you say makes me stand by my statement that you are largely in the dark as to what motivates posttrib believers. You may think you know but you don't. Sober assessment so as to assist proper preparation for what is ahead is different than what you describe. Posttrib believers haven't come up with new and novel doctrines that the Holy Spirit is going to be taken from the earth at a pre-trib rapture and no longer fill and indwell those who believe in Christ during the tribulation. Post trib believers don't believe that those saved during the tribulation will not be part of the Church but part of a separate people of God apart from the Church. Where is the real error you speak of? Believing in the Church and Christ's body of believers as being the Bride of Christ is firmly entrenched in those who don't share in pretribulationism's view of these things. They don't come up lacking at all but simply don't ascribe to the totally brand new doctrine of these truths that only began to first be propopgated in the 1830s.

I wrote,

"They are among the strongest believers out there in regards to anticipating the groom's return for His Bride."

You replied,

"To my knowledge,I have never seen any teaching by the postrib adherents on the concept of the bride/groom,or mat 25."

Me: You obviously haven't looked hard enough is the best advice I could offer.

You said,

"You guys need to ask yourself why those teachers avoid any of this, or anything placing believers in heaven."
Me: When you make such statements it only increases my belief that you don't really know those whom you speak of.

You said,

"The postrib teaching, imo,took their position before examining the pretrib verses. Why else would they be forced to minimise the words of Jesus?"

Me: They would tell you they took their position after examining the way the verses were presented in a new and novel way in the 1830s and decided the new way wasn't biblical or in line with the church's historical understanding of the subject.

Revelation portrays,

- a large group of tribulation believers who have had their robes washed white in the blood of the Lamb (Rev 7:13-14)

- a group of believers who in the midst of persecution and martyrdom are overcoming by

the blood of the Lamb

by the word of their testimony

loving not their own lives unto death (Rev 12:11)

- a group who is persecuted because they keep the commandments of God and hold to the testimony of Jesus (Rev 12:17)

Yet pretribulationism today largely advocates that these type of believers portayed in Revelation are not going to be part of the Church but a separate group of redeemed people altogether and they won't have the Spirit indwelling them although they are saved. Who now is really minimizing the words of Jesus and in thereby doing minimizing large parts of the New Testament's teaching on who makes up the Church?

You wrote,
"......and yes you do seem to be genuine in your beliefs and I do respect that."

"BTW,thank you for your manners in discussing this subject.
Outside of the priesthood study, end times has to be the most fascinating."

Me: I can only say thank you for that. As usual, I have been long winded but I found some time to reply to you. And again, I have a sense I haven't done as well in that regard as I should or is possible. But thank you.

Meanwhile, I can hardly see how a caricature throwing Bride that still speaks many times blindly against other segments of the Church which it really doesn't know (all sides are guilty) can be seen as a prepared bride that could be raptured and caught away at any moment or second. As of now, if this was to happen, it seems this Bride would show up for her marriage in quite soiled garments.

In closing, here's a link that speaks to the issue of God's wisdom and suffering and the church's end time calling and why it matters how christians view these prophecies,

http://the.mysteryofisrael.org/courses/apocalyptic-evangelism-2002/-what-difference

Also, since it's a sermon titled, "A Bride Adorned for the Bridegroom" and is a short convenient click away on the home page of sermonindex, I might again recommend Art Katz's sermon on "A Bride Adorned for the Bridegroom."

Thank you.

Greetings my friend & merry Christmas,
I read your post,and listened to the Katz sermon.

Sorry,but that sermon does indeed illustrate my point that postrib teachers have not a clue as to the bride/groom dimension.
You need to listen to it again.Katz does the proverbial uhh,uhh,when the parable shifts to the 5 rejected virgins w/ oil .

There is nothing at all to the first hour of the sermon. Katz is quoting some woman's assertions and conjecture on the "suffering bride".

Look,you are way,way off on the way you define me,as a pretrib.

There is NO ISSUE what so ever,with the suffering of the believer,and my opposition to it.
You have created a really bizarre rabbit trail here.
We ALL are PROMISED persecution.We all are in the "army".We all have an enemy.The bride suffers persecution.We suffer persecution ...Some more than others.
BIG DEAL!! It is a fact and a guarantee.

Now,go back and @ 01;08;00 you will hear Katz saying that the suffering is FROM A INTIMATE,DEDICATED commitment to Jesus.
Then you hear him say the bride is glorified IN HEAVEN,WITH JESUS.

Your doctrine prohibits the bride from heaven,remember?

How do you figure that the bride suffers persecution,as promised to any serious believer,then you produce a sermon that is confused about forcing the bride into the GT,but relinquishes the role of heaven and the bride(pretrib has this position),and somehow think you have honestly challenged my statement that the bride dimension is a postrib "uh oh"?

You really do not understand where we differ,do you?
I do not define you as "persecution/trib. centered.
You do.That is WHY you attempt to define us as "escapists that will cave and take the mark"

"""Yet pretribulationism today largely advocates that these type of believers portayed in Revelation are not going to be part of the Church but a separate group of redeemed people altogether and they won't have the Spirit indwelling them although they are saved. Who now is really minimizing the words of Jesus and in thereby doing minimizing large parts of the New Testament's teaching on who makes up the Church?"""

This is completely false.Provide the quote please.

"""They would tell you they took their position after examining the way the verses were presented in a new and novel way in the 1830s and decided the new way wasn't biblical or in line with the church's historical understanding of the subject."""

More false assertions,unproveable conjecture.You invoke your catchphrases,then without pause tell me you are perplexed at the notion that I would call you on it.

"""I know for sertsain that posttreib believers don;t see thmselves as champions of suffering above others. Nothing could be further from the truth and it's a grief to see such false and malicious caricatures still have sway in the body of Christ. Yet, are you implying that these type of untrue and mocking statements toward others don't come from the pretrib camp also? """

I have never,ever seen the debate,where it is not centered by postrib around the suffering you guys are totally prepared or preparing for,and the escapists we are.
Sorry,but You guys own that one big time.(even though you need scissors to go with the bible,as the watchers are commended)

"""Revelation portrays,

- a group of believers who in the midst of persecution and martyrdom are overcoming by

the blood of the Lamb

by the word of their testimony

loving not their own lives unto death (Rev 12:11)

- a group who is persecuted because they keep the commandments of God and hold to the testimony of Jesus (Rev 12:17)"""

Read it again.That group is IN HEAVEN,AND KICKS THE DEVIL OUT.Then,a few sentences later,power is given to the AC to finish off those left behind.
How can you not get that right??You are so anxious for that doctrine to work,you transpose things that are not even there.
Part of the reason you confuse this is your lack of understanding as to the purpose of the GT.
You do not even realize you are witnessing the end of the times of the gentiles,and the shift to "Jacob or Israel"

OK,lets go to school here.,(Basics first).;

earth created=purpose
Adam created= purpose
Earth destroyed by flood= purpose
Noah goes up pretrib,returns postrib=purpose
Sodom destroyed=purpose
Lot escapes pretrib=purpose
GT and the Jewish cov. pple=purpose
Rapture=purpose
Postrib inverts most of these items. and portrays the obedient watchman and his Maratha cry as deluded fools.

This really sums it up,and showcases the postrib error,and attempt to ascribe "purpose" to a beat up bride,that is not even present on the planet at the end of the GT

Sorry to be blunt,but postrib doctrine has no harmony of purpose.(nor a single supporting verse of scripture)

And,as usual,the postrib versions of the 10 virgins, continues to amaze me .

Peace

you believers need to calm down.

RogerB....you believers need to calm down.

Amen Brother! Threads like these is why most folks don't want anything to do with Christianity.

Hi Bill,

You seem upset over this thread.
Sorry about that,but if the sparse participation needs muzzling,you might end up talking to yourself. LOL!

Here I am amazed at the cordial spirit in here and even at that some are offended?

I seriously doubt that those that come in here interested in the "rapture" subject will refuse the free gift of salvation over a biblical debate.

If you could specifically point to a grevious statement,I will gladly make adjustments, as long as it is reasonable.

God bless,and happy new year Bill!!

"""""you believers need to calm down."""""

LOL!
I remember a missionary from mexico came to our church from central america.He was told after entering into very dangerous territories,inhabited by withcdoctors and worlocks "you need to calm down"

"calm down" is not the last days banner.

I can remember my adventures to times square church in new York To be in the great revival in about 1993.

The youth were literally ablaze with Jesus and the anointing from heaven that came in like a wind.

So many were offended by this zeal.

When the spirit of God arrives,there is always offence.
IOW where you find God in power,you will always find offence and the devil.

If I offended anyone I'm sorry. Wasn't my intention.

psalm1

Hi Bill,

You seem upset over this thread.
Sorry about that,but if the sparse participation needs muzzling,you might end up talking to yourself. LOL!

Here I am amazed at the cordial spirit in here and even at that some are offended?

I seriously doubt that those that come in here interested in the "rapture" subject will refuse the free gift of salvation over a biblical debate.

If you could specifically point to a grevious statement,I will gladly make adjustments, as long as it is reasonable.

It's not me, I have been here long enough to know most of the protocol, it's the folks that might be on drugs, alcohol or suicidal, etc. that might be looking for a way out, that concern me. We have to remember, this forum is not like talking to people on your block. It's world wide, with many different cultures and personalities and beliefs,and states of mind, that may come here, and not all can understand whats going on in threads like this, and not take/accept them as some do. We can't stereotype folks,God made us all different, even to what we accept and understand. I love a good debate as much as the next person, but I just feel there comes a time when some debates here, become selfish rants, that stop edifying. Maybe I just don't understand, and my opinion is out of line, or maybe I do have a point or two, I will let you folks decide.
God Bless
Mr. Bill

I'm suprised that you made another reply after almost 8 weeks but I guess that is no real problem. There are no time limits set on replies and I will try and reply in kind.

You wrote,

Greetings my friend & merry Christmas,
I read your post,and listened to the Katz sermon.

Sorry,but that sermon does indeed illustrate my point that postrib teachers have not a clue as to the bride/groom dimension.

You need to listen to it again. Katz does the proverbial uhh,uhh,when the parable shifts to the 5 rejected virgins w/ oil .

Me: Well, like I said, I'm somewhat suprised you made another post on the subject or subjects but it's no problem. The way I see it, I guess we're back to the same point I have made before. It's my belief that after listening to the tape the reason you are saying the postrib teachers don't have a clue as to the bride/groom dimension is because on the tape your view was not presented.

I listened and I didn't hear Katz do the proverbial uhh, uhh, when he came to the subject of the five rejected virgins w/oil. He didn't really miss a beat at that point and didn't pause or hesitiate or search for words and it was clear in the way and the context in which he spoke. He wasn't confused and I'm thinking the uhh, uhh seems to have more to do with your reaction that another view was presented.

You wrote,

"There is nothing at all to the first hour of the sermon. Katz is quoting some woman's assertions and conjecture on the "suffering bride".

There is nothing at all to the first hour of the sermon? Katz is just quoting "some woman's" assertions and conjecture on the "suffering bride?"

That "some woman" you refer to was Basilea Schlink who had the respect of many Christians during her time and ministry. As Katz made mention of, she was one of the few if any ministries who spoke of Christ's present suffering. It's not that common of a theme. Even if one knew nothing of her at all, it still seems difficult after listening to some of her writings that were shared to just dismiss her as "some woman" sharing her assertions and conjectures. The suffering bride she spoke of is a bride that has drawn close to God and is in tune with the things that still grieve Hs heart and the heart of Christ. When Christ still sufferes He grieves over the world and its sin and the bride suffers also because she is in close communion with the bridegroom and has becoem privilege to the inmost emotions of His heart. If that is to be dismissed as you seem to have done then perhaps you are only exposing some type of built in prejudice toward other parts of the body of Christ. Or something. I don't really know what it is but if yo want to dismiss in a cavalier way the relevance of her writings as just "some woman" then you have the right to do so bu like I said, even if you don't know of her at all how can such writings and words be so lightly dismissed.

I took some notes during the sermon and I'll share them as best I can. She wrote and Katz spoke of her words and the Bride needing to ache and grieve and suffer more as it sees and discern the things that grieve the bridegroom's heart today. Katz spoke of and rebuked the merchandising mega minstries today that are financially centered and operating by carnal principles of financial intake. Christ grieves over that. Imagine Katz addressing that subject that amounts to "nothing!" She wrote of and Katz spoke of the inmost concerns of Christ's heart today and the things that still grieve Him need to be more impressed upon the heart of the church. Then it becomes a closer union with Him because the church is then experiencing the fellowship of His sufferings which still occur today. Christ has not ceased to suffer in His heart. Katz mentioned Christ still suffers over a backsliddden Israel and the church may be unprepared in many quarters for another catastrophe occuring against Jewry in the world. Suffering many times precedes any glory the church will ultimately obtain. The tape covered the present heart of the Lord and what it contains and Katz asked how in tune with this heart the church is today. Jesus still suffers when He sees His church and bride being increasingly rejected by society. And Katz said a suffering church will not wait for consolation but will be about the business even now of minstering to others who are hurting and will become increasingly burdened that people repent and turn from sin. He spoke of modern day Israel being turned off by many "unpriestly" (he wasn't referring to Catholics) missionaries. He spoke of Schlink's book, "Repentance: The Secret of a Joy Filled Life" and highly recommended it. He spoke that any suffering the church goes through today in these end times can only make us grow closer to God and the coming consummation we will have with Him. Katz asked if a end time church be willing to bleed for Israel as a sign and witness to them that God's heart still suffers for them and He has prepared a church willing to express His heart to them? And he spoke of the virigins and the oil and 5 of them being prepared for the coming Marriage of the Lamb.

And you say the first hour of his sermon was about "nothing at all."

You wrote,

"Look,you are way,way off on the way you define me,as a pretrib."

Me: Well, I noticed that the way you decribed posttrib people was way off. So maybe we both need to learn something. I'll try on my end.

You wrote,

"There is NO ISSUE what so ever,with the suffering of the believer,and my opposition to it.
You have created a really bizarre rabbit trail here.
We ALL are PROMISED persecution.We all are in the "army".We all have an enemy.The bride suffers persecution.We suffer persecution ...Some more than others.
BIG DEAL!! It is a fact and a guarantee."

Me: I find you paragraph confusing. You say in the first lines you are opposed to the suffering of the believer and then in the last of the paragraph say you have no problem with it. I've run no bizarre rabbit trail. Meanwhile, the way you dimsissed "some woman" and her writings on the suffering bride shows there is some kind of issue here in my opinion. How can such words turn you off is such a drastic way? You seem also to be more or less focused on physical persecution of believers while Basilea Schlink and Katz were writing and speaking of another kind of suffering. They were speaking of suffering within one's self as one grows mor ein tune with and closer to God's heart and therefore closer and more in tune with the things that continue to grieve His heart today. The bride today should inwardly carry yhe buren of the Lord and suffer as Christ still suffers today in His heart because of the condition of the world. This inner aspect of the suffering bride is not much spoken of today and is different than actual physical suffering or persecution. How you can lightly dismiss this may be an indication Schlink and Katz were not just speaking about "nothing." Your "BIG DEAL" speaks somewhat stongly in my opinion and what it speaks is not altogether positive. In regard to your cavalier and dismissive reaction to the bride suffering inwardly as Schlink wrote of, what else can be said or discerned?

You wrote,
"Now, go back and @ 01;08;00 you will hear Katz saying that the suffering is FROM A INTIMATE,DEDICATED commitment to Jesus.

Then you hear him say the bride is glorified IN HEAVEN,WITH JESUS.
Your doctrine prohibits the bride from heaven,remember?"

Me: Why do you patiently endure suffering if not because of your INTIMATE and DEDICATED commitment to Jesus? Is there a better reason out there to endure suffering? Why do you endure suffering? And again, the suffering presented on the tape was not actually speaking of physical suffereing and the like. It was speaking of inwardly suffering as one suffers and grieves over the things that cause the Lord grief. This type of bride is closely in tune with God because of its INTIMATE and DEDICATED commitment to Jesus. You actually seem to be casting dispersion on an intimate dedication to Jesus. What else should drive our lives as Christians?
I heard Katz speaking of a bride and virgins being ready and having proper oil as they prepare to be part of the Marriage of the Lamb. The bride will be glorified in heaven with Jesus but that doesn't mean Katz was speaking of a pre-trib rapture. He was simply placing it in the context of the second coming. He didn't believe in a pre-trib rapture.

You wrote in the above,

"Your doctrine prohibits the bride from heaven/remember."

Me: Yes I remember. Katz didn't show up any contradictions becuase the context he spoke of when he mentioned the bride being glorified in heaven was in the context of the second coming. The second coming is when the Bride enters heaven and is glorifed. That is the context Katz was speaking in.

You wrote,

"How do you figure that the bride suffers persecution,as promised to any serious believer,then you produce a sermon that is confused about forcing the bride into the GT,but relinquishes the role of heaven and the bride(pretrib has this position),and somehow think you have honestly challenged my statement that the bride dimension is a postrib "uh oh"?"

The sermon being confused comes from within you because a different view than yours was presented. Although the sermon was more about the inner suffering of the Bride today, the view presented right at the end in the sermon regarding the church being glorified in heaven was what the church advocated during its entire history until the 1830s when the other view appeared.

You wrote,

"You really do not understand where we differ, do you?"

Me: Yes I believe I understand where we differ. You believe the church is going to be raptured and taken away befor ethe final tribulation begins. I believe the church is called and destined to be here during that time and that that does not nullify in its eventual destiny of glorification and participation in the Marriage of the Lamb.

You said,

"I do not define you as "persecution/trib. centered."

Me: In your post of 9/01/13 you wrote,

"Consequent to the posttrib doctrine is a preoccupation, not of Jesus' return, but with suffering..."

Me: That soundded to me like you were saying posttrib believers are preoccupied with the coming tribulation and suffering.

You wrote,

"You do.That is WHY you attempt to define us as "escapists that will cave and take the mark"

Me: I did ask the question if as you assert postrib believers are preoccupied with coming suffering then could it be legitimately asked by the other view if pretrib believers are not preoccupied with escaping. Meanwhile, I've never defined you as "escapists who will cave and take the mark." That is entirely of your own making and the phrase escapists who will cave and take the mark is one that I have never heard anywhere at any time from any posttrib believer.

I wrote,

"Yet pretribulationism today largely advocates that these type of believers portayed in Revelation are not going to be part of the Church but a separate group of redeemed people altogether and they won't have the Spirit indwelling them although they are saved. Who now is really minimizing the words of Jesus and in thereby doing minimizing large parts of the New Testament's teaching on who makes up the Church?"

You replied,

"This is completely false.Provide the quote please."

There are many that can be honestly gathered and I have some of them but will wait on sharing them because this reply is already somewhat long.

Thank you and blessings.