Freedom from Sin

BROTHER!!! I love you! haha this blessed me TREMENDOUSLY. May I copy it all and post it (with your name on it) on my site? http://www.xanga.com/alanrepent This town is mostly held by eternal security doctrines, and holiness and obedience are foreign to the 24 churches here. It would be good for some of them to read something like this if it is OK with you. Thanks brother.

I agree with all these points and posts for the most part and they are great. Would any of you brethren care to share personal testimonies on Total Victory over Sin? I would be much encouraged to hear them.God Bless,-Robert

I just wanted to say THANK YOU! I needed this clarity.The Lord had spoken to me a year ago and he gave me these same scriptures...Ezek: 36:25-29; 36b --Jer 32:39-41 -- Deut. 30:6. I love how you just explained it and linked the command/promise's together.I am so blessed by this site, and I thank God that we are able to be ourselves, to be transparent...with all of our failures and weakness. Every times the Lord has me to come here and read...my spirit rejoices to see how much growth has taken place. It encourages me so, and I know that he is also working in me. Amen, once again Thank You.

Hey,This is a great topic and should be talked about more. The gospel is both God's grace and mercy not just his mercy. When we stop talking as much about God's grace and start only talking about God's mercy we are believing in a Jesus who does not exist. He is Lord and Savior and not just one or the other. He has to be both at all times and can never be just one or the other. To believe He is anything different and to preach in the context of man's constant failure is to bring God down to work within the failure of man. This can't be right since it takes man to completely deny himself to even be able to participate in receiving by faith God's grace and mercy for this life.

I agree with both of your exhortations Jesse and freecd.Freecd wrote:" The sinner is not required to "make himself clean," or to "make to himself a new heart," in the exercise of his unaided powers, but by application to the blood of Christ, "which cleanses from all sin." The grace which purifies the heart is provided; the fountain, whose waters cleanse from sin, is set open.What is the nature of this grace that enables us to obey? From where does it come from? When God speaks His promise to you, in what way has the content of the grace you received changed you or caused you to repent?In ChristJeff

Br Robert wrote:Would any of you brethren care to share personal testimonies of Total Victory over Sin?I posted this from the thread, Live\\walking in the Spirit. " I would like to give you one example of how the Lord disciplined me about three years ago.Six years ago I was present for the opening of a church plant in our area. It soon qualified as a Calvary Chapel affiliate. During this time the Lord had begun to stir in me the calling into ministry. My pastor, then 29 years old, plugged me into varios ministries. I soon was given the responsibility of leading a men's fellowship group in our small congregation. I also began to seek out ministry training at a branch campus of Calvary Chapel Bible college. I met many people during this time. I began to strive for position in the church. I also recognized that others that I met along the way in the various churches, strived also for position in the church. It was a good thing to land a paying job in an established ministry. Looking back now, I can see the uglyness of my sin. But the Lord is faithful to work out the clay as He saw fit. You might remember recently that I posted a thread a "fireman and Christ." My brother Bob was a man who had walked with the Lord for a long time. He was much closer to the Lord because his nature was more like Christ. Well, back about 3 years ago, Brother Bob walked into our church and soon rose in the congregation because of what the Lord had worked in him. One day my pastor came to me and told me that Brother Bob was going to take over the men's fellowship ministry. That news hurt my flesh really bad. I was consumed by this event for days, but I submitted without much outward signs. Remember what Jesus said to the Pharisees, "you are like white washed tombs on the outside, but you are full of dead men's bones on the inside." This Scripture speaks well of what was going on inside of me.About two or three months passed, and the Holy Spirit convicted me one day before a prayer meeting. The Holy Spirit brought a thought to my mind that I had thought soon after I was relieved of the men's fellowship ministry. This is the thought that was brought to my mind that day. "It's okay, Brother Bob can have the men's fellowship for now, he will die of Lou Gerihgs desease someday, and then I will again head the men's ministry." Then the Holy Spirit impressed upon me that I was required to confess this thought during the prayer meeting that night. I began to rationalize that no one needs to know, what is past is past. Yet the Holy Spirit did not let up. I experienced a huge amount of guilt that evening. Well, during the prayer meeting I submitted to the conviction and direction that I received earlier. It was a time of sobbing and a time of washing that I will not forget. It was a time of breaking and humbling that has continued to teach me lessons even unto today. This is one testimony of what my Lord has worked in me. I have learned alot about what it means to strive for position in His church and the ugliness of that sin as He sees it."Two things I know. First, I have experienced the goodness of how in God's wisdom He worked this particular root of sin out into the open. He brought my sin out of the darkness into the light. I have experienced the washing and refreshing that comes through obedience to His command. I could not have done this in my own strength. All glory be to His name. Secondly, because of what God has worked in me pretaining to this particular sin in my life, when I recognized the attributes of that sin wanting to rear up again, I recognize it for what it is. And because I have tasted the goodness of God that leads to repentance, it is much easier now to let that old sin die before it takes root again. I no longer desire to strive for position in the church. I just go day to day looking forward to what God has me do. I know that He has called me into ministry, when and where only He knows. In ChristJeff

Br Lahry wrote:Finally, I simply cannot believe that anyone reaches a place of sinless perfection. Not even Paul did that. I agree with your position 100%. The sin that God showed me is just one of a million that are part of my old man. I am waiting to share about another sin soon. What I have learned is that follow Christ means that He will convict me of the sins that He is currently working on in my life. This is why it can only be through Christ that we learn of His righteousness. If we live without Christ, then we are subject to following the curse of the law. In our own mind we come up with what we believe is our duty to try not to sin. Yet I have found that it is only by following Christ that He can and will deliver us, and bring refreshing and washing of our hearts. Paul said something to the effect, that he battles daily to keep his body in subjection to Christ. In ChristJeff

Again responding to Br. Robert's question:Would any of you brethren care to share personal testimonies on Total Victory over Sin?What I am about to share is embarrasing, but all sin should be embarrasing once you have come into a relationship with our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. Again another humbling experience brougth about by my Savior as a testimony of His grace extended to me.Masturbation was something that I had practiced since I was a teenager. It was something that I did to satisfy my flesh. Then at the age of 40 I committed by life to Christ. About 5 years into my walk the Holy Spirit would begin to convict me during this practice. I remember asking the Lord is it a sin? Again the conviction came down upon me. Yet, I continued. Everytime I was seeking to satisfy my flesh, the Spirit was there. I would justify my actions as a harmless activity. I would say, just a little sin, it isn't hurting anyone else. Surely, Lord, I can keep this can't I? I tried being hard of hearing. I tried tuning Him out. Well this continued for a time until I went for an annual medical checkup. Everything was normal except that my PSA test came back with a value of 8. A PSA test is used as an indicator for prostrate cancer. A value of 8 is considered high. When the doctor told me of these results, the Holy Spirit brought to my attention the nature of my rebellion. The Spirit linked my sin with this event. I meditated on this significant event for the next week. And this is what I learned.God is holy and I am called to be holy as He teaches me. God will not allow you to keep doing a sin that He has commanded you to stop. He expects me to obey, period!I made an oath to Him that week that I would stop. I learned alittle about the fear of the Lord that week. This verse comes to mind:Heb. 12:28 Therefore, since we are receiving a kingdom which cannot be shaken, let us have grace, by which we may serve God acceptably with reverence and godly fear. 29 For our God is a consuming fire. Well I went back for another test and this time my PSA count was less than 2. Shortly there after, again the Spirit called me to testify of this event in my life. Again I was humbled because of what the Spirit commanded. I shared with the men's group of our church. This also became a time of renewing and refreshing. When the men heard my testimony, they all began to be more transparent with their own struggles, their own sins. Humility began to take root amonsgt the fellowship. Sin is an ugly thing. It reveals our nakedness before the Lord. He wants to clothe us with the robe of righteousness. How can we be filled with His Holy Spirit if we continue in sin?Finally, I have not commited that sin again. There are times when I am tempted but I call on the name of my Lord to deliver me from that temptation. He is faithful.In ChristJeff

Thanks for the testimony Jeff, I am sure that must have been uncomfortable to post.Victory in that area came for me about three years after I began to walk with the Lord. I knew this practice was an unholy contradiction to my claims of being born again. In severe conviction I one day stood on Romans six, and declared that when God said I was dead to this sin, that He was correct, and that I was a slave to Christ and could no longer give myself to this practice (not to mention pornography)- I reckoned myself dead to these things - and was delivered from them.Likewise, I used to play role playing games (Dungeon's and Dragons, etc.) for at least 20 hours or so every week of my adult life (I started as a young teenager, yet nearly twenty years later I was just as addicted as ever). After I found the Lord I began to come under conviction that the way I spent my time was not honoring to God - I was supposed to love the Lord with all my mind, soul, and strength - but I was spending all my efforts on my own leisure - and dark pastimes seemed to be my preference. It was sin, and I one day repented of it all - tossed out thousands of dollars of paraphernalia and was completely set free from the bondage to them.Likewise with stolen software, likewise with bitterness, and I could go on the list is long.Now, it is because I immersed myself daily in the word of God and prayer that I found strength to do these things.In a word, I made the -outside- of my cup clean.Granted, this sort of "victory" is common enough amongst those who are serious about God, holiness, and sin.But this isn't the kind of "Total Victory" Brother Roberts is fishing for.The victory that I have described from my own testimony is the victory that was easily found in any of the Pharisees. Christ described my "victory" over sin as a cleansing of the outside of the cup. I stopped committing the act of sin - even though my heart was still wicked. All I had done was put a big, self righteous cork on sin, and thanked God as though God had done it. Deep down in my heart though, I knew the truth - I wasn't free from the sin, I had just developed a better way of dealing with it. I wasn't giving into sin - but I wasn't free from it either.Perhaps an example might help to illustrate what I am getting at. A homicidal pedophile is captured and sent to prison for twenty five years for his crimes. After twenty five years he is still a pedophile even though he hasn't committed an offense all the while that he was in prison. His lack of opportunity has suppressed his criminal behavior - but it hasn't cured it.Likewise, a man can develop a way to suppress the outward act of sin and even believe it to be "victory" but it isn't the sort of victory that Brother Roberts is talking about.I can tell you that I have had a lot of the former kind of "victory" - the "giant cork" variety - where I train myself to resist sin at all costs - and eventually develop the godly habit of making no provision for my flesh to fulfill it's lusts.I believe this sort of "victory" over sin is no victory at all, but the penultimate expression that the Pharisees had already acheived. And the Lord speaks to this sort of victory with the same message he gave to the pharisees - the outside of the sepulchre is clean (that is, you are not outwardly commiting gross sin), but the inside it is full of dead men's bones.The first time I was called upon to preach, I kept myself under such guard, that the whole week prior to the sermon I was moment by moment in prayer and fasting. That week I managed to keep myself from sinning any known sin. Guess what? I still wanted to sin - nothing changed. All I had done was give a supreme effort, and in the strength of that effort I managed to keep the outside clean for a week - but inside I hadn't changed a bit.The "victory" that I am seeking is not from outward sins - I have walked as a Pharisee long enough - no, the victory that interests me is the one where Christ cleans the inside of me so that I have no more desire to sin. I want to hear testimony from people who no longer have any desire whatsoever to sin in any way shape or form.When a man speaks of freedom from sin, I want to hear that he is really free from sin, and not just free from one of countless sinful habits.I don't say this to belittle your victory in any way Jeff - Lord knows your testimony is a good one. Rather I say this because I do not see that your testimony, encouraging as it is, has answered the challenge given by brother Roberts.In training,Dan/\\/\\/\\

Dan wrote:When a man speaks of freedom from sin, I want to hear that he is really free from sin, and not just free from one of countless sinful habits.This is a great word, in the last year I have heard countless Christians talk about walking in Victory. Some stating that they now walk in greater victory than they have ever known.But upon further investigation so many times what is really being said is just what you have questioned. Victory for many is simply they are not looking at pornography on the computer. Or they are not smoking cigarettes, or they are not swearing as much ect….Let me add, how thankful we are to God as he delivers saints from these bondages spoken of. For so many, they desperately now need to go on with Christ. The house is swept and clean, now fill it with all the Glory that Christ offers.Jesse wrote:God has not charted a course which is impossible to sail. Nothing shall be impossible for God. So long as God is the Captain and Commander of the ship He can and will sail it wherever He so pleases. Certainly mutiny against the Captain and Commander is possible on our part, but loyalty is also a possibility.I have thought much on this statement since reading it, and I see John 15:16 in this statement:\t“Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit.”A life of Victory for me is this: Am I running the race that has been set before me with PATIENCE?!?!? Not, have I arrived at some elusive undetermined place of no sin, but again am I in the race? Am I being conformed to the image of His Son Jesus Christ?!?!Blessing,TonyAlso, To Jeff: It’s high time we just simply get straight with people as you have done here. I heard a Minister say the following Sunday Morning as it regards living right:1) Admit it2) Repent it3) Quit itAnd it is possible as we strive to walk in the Holy Ghost.

I want to hear testimony from people who no longer have any desire whatsoever to sin in any way shape or form.Is this different then saying,"I want to hear testimony from people who no longer feel temptation whatsoever to sin in any way shape or form?"If it is different, then how so?

Brother Dan wrote:I don't say this to belittle your victory in any way Jeff - Lord knows your testimony is a good one. Rather I say this because I do not see that your testimony, encouraging as it is, has answered the challenge given by brother Roberts.I agree with your whole statement, every letter Brother. Paul teaches:1Cor. 15:29 Otherwise, what will they do who are baptized for the dead, if the dead do not rise at all? Why then are they baptized for the dead? 30 And why do we stand in jeopardy every hour? 31 I affirm, by the boasting in you which I have in Christ Jesus our Lord, I die daily. We also are called to die daily, which means that we must call upon the name of our Lord daily for His provision. Total Victory only comes as Paul teaches:1Cor. 15:42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. The body is sown in corruption, it is raised in incorruption. 43 It is sown in dishonor, it is raised in glory. It is sown in weakness, it is raised in power. 44 It is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body. 45 And so it is written, “The first man Adam became a living being.” The last Adam became a life-giving spirit. 1Cor. 15:46 However, the spiritual is not first, but the natural, and afterward the spiritual. 47 The first man was of the earth, made of dust; the second Man is the Lord from heaven. 48 As was the man of dust, so also are those who are made of dust; and as is the heavenly Man, so also are those who are heavenly. 49 And as we have borne the image of the man of dust, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly Man.So therefore we have not been perfected, but we look onward and upward to the call of Christ in our life. When Paul states: 24 O wretched man that I am! Who will deliver me from this body of death? 25 I thank God—through Jesus Christ our Lord!So then, with the mind I myself serve the law of God, but with the flesh the law of sin. 1 There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus, who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit.Paul points to the only solution to our old man who continues to strive with His Holy Spirit. It is only by following His voice do we begin to experience the freedom that comes with living for Christ.As you have said we will not experience total victory in this life, we do experience His work, and His work gives us a taste, a hope that is groaning within us in expectation of that day when we will then see Him as He is. Amen Brother Dann

Brother Mike wrote:Is this different then saying,"I want to hear testimony from people who no longer feel temptation whatsoever to sin in any way shape or form?"There is a great difference. Temptation is always waiting. What does Jesus say when asked how should we pray? Matt. 6:13 \tAnd do not lead us into temptation,\tBut deliver us from the evil one.\tFor Yours is the kingdom and the power and the glory forever. Amen.Matt. 26:41 Watch and pray, lest you enter into temptation. The spirit indeed is willing, but the flesh is weak.”It is God who can deliver us from the temptations that we are confronted with. God is able to overcome, it is we who must ask. That is the real question. Do we desire to ask or do we desire to continue in our sins. What does James warn us of? 3 You ask and do not receive, because you ask amiss, that you may spend it on your pleasures. 4 Adulterers and adulteresses! Do you not know that friendship with the world is enmity with God? Whoever therefore wants to be a friend of the world makes himself an enemy of God. 5 Or do you think that the Scripture says in vain, “The Spirit who dwells in us yearns jealously”? James 4:6 But He gives more grace. Therefore He says:\t“God resists the proud,\tBut gives grace to the humble.”James 4:7 Therefore submit to God. Resist the devil and he will flee from you. 8 Draw near to God and He will draw near to you. Cleanse your hands, you sinners; and purify your hearts, you double-minded. 9 Lament and mourn and weep! Let your laughter be turned to mourning and your joy to gloom. 10 Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and He will lift you up. Sin entered the world when Satan met Adam and Eve one day in the garden. For a time Satan continues in this world. So as long as Satan remains, temptation remains. But we are called upon to resist, this is what Brother Dan is refering too I believe. We continue to live in this world under the dominion of corruption, yet God through the work of the Holy Spirit giving us the Life of His Son overcomes this world. In ChristJeff

Compton wrote:Is this different then saying,"I want to hear testimony from people who no longer feel temptation whatsoever to sin in any way shape or form?"If it is different, then how so?It is different in that you can be tempted by your own desires (ala James 1:13~ ) or you can be tempted externally (ala Matthew 4).Therefore when I say "I want to hear testimony from people who no longer have any desire whatsoever to sin in any way shape or form." I am saying, I want to hear testimony from someone whose temptation is coming only from "without" - that is, they no longer have an internal desire to sin.I hope that helpsDan/\\/\\/\\

Br Dann wrote: I want to hear testimony from someone whose temptation is coming only from "without" - that is, they no longer have an internal desire to sin.I have not searched the Scriptures in this regard, but those that you mentioned both came from the same external source. I believe that when the Scriptures said that "sin entered the world," that event pointed to God allowing Satan to corrupt the world. Scripture teaches that our war is not with flesh and blood but with powers and principalities. I believe and am still searching for more understanding in this area, that man is influenced by satan and God. What does it mean when God says: Gen. 3:22 Then the LORD God said, “Behold, the man has become like one of Us, to know good and evil. What does it mean to now know good and evil? I believe the flesh became evil because the flesh learns from the spiritual leading in this world. God regenrates with His Spirit to teach us, to seperate us from what we have learned in the past when we were dead. So where does temptation find it source, that is the question that at this point I lean to 100% external. 1John 4:4 You are of God, little children, and have overcome them, because He who is in you is greater than he who is in the world. In Christ Jeff

Another thought,Sin is not all inclusive or encompassed in the precept of temptation. Sin also concerns, not knowing what is good. Not knowing the truth that exists in God, one can only live for the things that are seen. As God reveals His truth to you or I we learn about sin, that our carnal mind did not comprehend, prior to His revealing it to us. To have Total Victory in this one must wait to see Him as He is. Sorry, just trying to put words to something I don't grasp yet. In Christ Jeff

One of my favorite writers, Watchman Nee, once captured the tension between certainty of ideal and ambiguity of reality regarding sinlessness. "Nothing must make the Lord sadder then when we say we must sin." His case for holy perfection, while void of supporting testimony from his own life, is convincingly stated. I can relate.Dann wrote,Therefore when I say "I want to hear testimony from people who no longer have any desire whatsoever to sin in any way shape or form." I am saying, I want to hear testimony from someone whose temptation is coming only from "without" - that is, they no longer have an internal desire to sin.Rookie wrote,It is God who can deliver us from the temptations that we are confronted with. God is able to overcome, it is we who must ask. That is the real question. Do we desire to ask or do we desire to continue in our sins. Thanks Guys. I think I understand what you are pointing out. According to James we know that a man is "tempted when, by his own evil desire, he is dragged away and enticed."James certainly shows us where the source of temptation lies, but does he imply that the source within us can be extinguished? Did James himself live completely free of the desire to sin? Was Paul, when writing the 7th chapter of Romans, referring to his former self or his present self?I'm not asking these things with close-minded rhetorical contrariety. While I'm skeptical regardng a literal sinless perfection, I am by no means opposed to it. I will admit, regarding this subject, I am chafed by all of the irreproachable and conclusive cases made for unlived truth. There are many who believe in perfection in their hearts. Does anyone know perfection in their hearts? I am wanting to know what you know. "Blessed are they whose ways are blameless, who walk according to the law of the LORD.Blessed are they who keep his statutes and seek him with all their heart. They do nothing wrong; they walk in his ways. You have laid down precepts that are to be fully obeyed. Oh, that my ways were steadfast in obeying your decrees! Then I would not be put to shame when I consider all your commands. I will praise you with an upright heart as I learn your righteous laws. I will obey your decrees;" Thanks for the honesty and fellowship guys! MC

MC wrote:“I am chafed by all of the irreproachable and conclusive cases made for unlived truth. There are many who believe in perfection in their hearts. Does anyone know perfection in their hearts?”The Paralysis of a Divided HeartNow, beloved, the trouble with a good many of us has been this divided heart. We are not sure, not absolutely sure about the Lord, about our own position, about the testimony that we are perhaps standing for and talking about; we are not sure about it, we have secret questionings. It does not matter what we say in public and to others about it, God knows the secret of our hearts, whether we are absolutely true in secret with Him over this matter ; and there is no way of victory, no way to ascendancy, no way through to the realisation of the Divine end - a people to fulfil a priestly ministry in the universal sovereignty and kingdom of our God and His Christ - until we are on the ground of an absolute undividedness of heart for God in the matter of His testimony.From the section, “The Paralysis of a Divided Heart”, in a T. Auston-Sparks thread, Because of the Blood of the Lamb posted on 5/15 1:25 (third section from bottom of the first of the three posts in the thread).Funny how this thing keeps coming up, Is it possible Somebody wants to get our attention? (Mine included.)Roger

Eagleswings,I see the connection you make to the T. Austin Sparks article. However, your earnest response to my questions seems to be another oblique admittance that we haven't actually experienced the thing we are certain of. I'm tempted to be oblique myself...to avoid controversy. Although I am speaking to the group through simple text, I wish I could let you hear the sincerity of my heart on this matter. It is my belief that the current strain of sinless perfection that is popping up now and then around here is not the same doctrine of holiness that Jonathan Edwards and Charles Spurgeon preached, but something else.This conversation always seems to wind up being a circuitous loop with no termination. That the debate can not be ended is itself a refutation of the theological claim that a man can be, and therefore must be, perfectly sinless. A single success story would end the tortous roundabout.Yes, we must do better. We must run faster and jump higher, and aim better. I'm not disputing the heart-aching desire for perfection anymore then a serious archer would willingly aim for any other part of the target except the bullseye. My difficulty is with the doctrine that says an archer will be supernaturally enabled to hit bulleyes everytime without fail and that anything less is to "call God a liar."Because I have yet to hear of one successful Robin Hood who has achieved this remarkable feat, I can only conclude that God remains in a continuous state of offense with all of us. While such a doctrinal position may make for thunderous homilies it can't really be taken to heart in full doses. Even it's staunchest proponents eviquicate under the feathery weight of common modesty.Some of us, especially the men, talk about our preaching heroes like they were spiritual supermen that defied gravity. They weren't, and it only hurts us to see these men as taller then the rest of us. If we could walk close to them, we would see their sin nature just like the precious saints we know personally today. Edwards, Wesley, Carmichael, Carey, and Graham were not the towering marble scultpures we polish in our imagination. The experience of seeing these men and women up close might be disheartening at first...but ultimately emboldening. Before their Father they were just like us... children that occasionaly came running with messy noses and dirty clothes needing to know there is a Father who loves them and claims them unashamedly as His own. (Hey, there are verses describing this side of God in the bible...)Lazarus, (and others here), I do see how your heart on this is full of faith and hope that God wants us to be free from sin. I welcome your admonition. I want you to know that I see your love for the body...I know you are not condemning but encouraging. I also want everyone to know that I appreciate the repentance message...I need it in fact.Somehow there must be a biblical yardstick that does not lower God's Holiness to something too low, or raise God's love to something too high. Do I believe that man can be perfect? I might be more willing to consider the length of your argument if God's love wasn't dangled at the end of it.Please be patient with me. I could hide behind a recitation of doctrine but I'm too weary with trying to be correct all the time. Can you walk awhile with me on this matter? I've tried to saddle my brothers and sisters with perfection theology...I can't in good conscience do so anymore. (Please don't demonstrate the sin-nature by unfairly shaping my words into a straw-man of cheap grace...:-()Bless you all. I pray our fellowship of trust will contine to be strengthened.MC

Br Mike wrote:Somehow there must be a biblical yardstick that does not lower God's Holiness to something too low, or raise God's love to something too high. Do I believe that man can be perfect? I might be more willing to consider the length of your argument if God's love wasn't dangled at the end of it.This is God's yardstick described by Paul;Gal. 5:16 I say then: Walk in the Spirit, and you shall not fulfill the lust of the flesh. Walking in the Spirit, I think that is the main question before us. Here is a promise of God. It is conditional isn't it? If you walk in the Spirit, then you shall not fulfill the lust of the flesh. I think Enoch walked with God. This verse is special to me:Isaiah 35:8 \tA highway shall be there, and a road,\tAnd it shall be called the Highway of Holiness.\tThe unclean shall not pass over it,\tBut it shall be for others.\tWhoever walks the road, although a fool,\tShall not go astray. The real question is shouldn't we always seek to walk on the Highway of Holiness? Scripture says that the unclean shall not pass over it. What is God trying to tell us? Whoever walks the road, although a fool, shall not go astray. I see this as meaning that if we decide daily to walk along the path with our Lord, He will sanctify us. We will become more like Him. Our lives are not focused on what we think but only listening for what He tells us to do.A life lived with Him will bring not condemnation but rejoicing and praise. Listen to His promise.Psa. 1:3 \tHe shall be like a tree\t\tPlanted by the rivers of water,\t\tThat brings forth its fruit in its season,\t\tWhose leaf also shall not wither;\tAnd whatever he does shall prosper. Only living for Living Water will keep us from withering.In ChristJeff

I could hide behind a recitation of doctrine but I'm too weary with trying to be correct all the time. Hey MC, I really enjoy doctrine. I think it is very usefull but I understand your point of liking the faith and hope in some of these guys posts. Like Ravenhill says in that revival hymn, "Christianity doesn't need a new definition of Christianity we need a new demonstration of Christianity." I believe that is how he states it.I go to bible studies two and sometimes 3 times a week. One thing that always makes my heart ache is when there is no element of faith and hope like you mention. It's as if all power that be in the gospel has ben extracted out and a dry explanation of things is expressed from a completely rational head. For a sinner to preach so dry and dead after having denied himself taken up His cross to follow Jesus and have the grace of God shed abroad in His heart for that day you would think more teaching would come from a discontent heart uncomfortable with sin but with a heart alive in the Spirit in faith. The Holiness of God and that same holiness in the Christian should be plainly evident. If this high ideal isn't seen in each one of us the blood of Christ still cover's our sins because righteousness isn't attained by a work. This faith assumption of the holiness being by grace and the blood of Christ covering us being by grace should constantly be tied together otherwise we will come to God with our own righteousness. If we don't trust Christ to work in us His holiness then we will by default try to manufacture our own righteousness and it will be weak and faithless and have secret sins hidden throughout it. By this religous mockery of supposed true grace at work in our lives we will some how still say we believe the blood covers our sins while yet rejecting the very power of God to conform us into His image. This subtle mockery in the church today is so hard to define because the very teachers and preachers in the pulpit spew this luke warmness into their hearers and they eat it up. He will shout in all faith the blood covers your sins and he will whisper in a "pastoraly" way His grace will conform you into His image. We need more people to not apologize when they speak of the power of God in their lives which includes the cross and the blood.

The real question is shouldn't we always seek to walk on the Highway of Holiness? Scripture says that the unclean shall not pass over it. What is God trying to tell us? Whoever walks the road, although a fool, shall not go astray. I see this as meaning that if we decide daily to walk along the path with our Lord, He will sanctify us. We will become more like Him. Our lives are not focused on what we think but only listening for what He tells us to do.Isaiah 35 is precious to me.I sometimes think we are like blind men describing the same elephant...only we argue which describes the elephant better; the trunk, tail, or legs? 8-) We agree on the need to be sanctified, but sometimes I think we skip over the need for sanctification. This is the part of the elephant I want to call your attention to.If we can't help but to sin, then we have an excuse to sin. If sin is to be expected, then sin is to be accepted.We do not have an excuse to sin. We can not accept wickedness even as secret dross hidden in our hearts. Clearly today, there is a psuedo-christian profession that gladly accepts the blood of Christ while ignoring His words. Some say the solution is a fear of God. Yet His enemies can be afraid of Him. "Because of the greatness of Your power Your enemies will give feigned obedience to You." With all of this carousing in broad daylight under the banner of the cross, we might conclude that the only hope for the church is to napalm her with a steady bombardment of repentance preaching. Yet, repentance is not our salvation. We need the blood of Christ to be accepted by God and His Spirit to walk in holiness. When you say that all imperfect Christians must necessarily be out of the will of God...well an honest man might conclude that the entire church is out of the will of God. Is there no room for process in God's will?An obedient Christian, growing in maturity and having Christ transformed in them, moves forward with each day walking with the Lord. Fellowship with the Spirit of Jesus, His words, and His people, has the power to create in us a new likeness. Is there another way?Amy Carmichael tells of a goldsmith in a village near her orphanage. She noticed the man stirring a black kettle of gold of over an open flame to burn out the dross. As he stirred he stared into the molten liquid. "How do you know when it's ready?" she asked the craftsman. "When I can see my face in it."That God is not satisfied to let us remain as we are is certain. That he loves us and will complete His good work in us is equally certain. I, like you, agree whole heartedly that sin is not in the will of God and those who make excuses for their rebellion are not acting as sons but enemies. Yet, if we eagerly remain in the refinement, remaining faithful to the Word of God, then we are in His will. "Shout joyfully to God, all the earth;"How awesome are Your works! Because of the greatness of Your power Your enemies will give feigned obedience to You. All the earth will worship You, And will sing praises to You;...Come and see the works of God, Who is awesome in His deeds toward the sons of men. He turned the sea into dry land; They passed through the river on foot;... For You have tried us, O God; You have refined us as silver is refined.You brought us into the net; You laid an oppressive burden upon our loins. You made men ride over our heads; We went through fire and through water, Yet You brought us out into a place of abundance... Come and hear, all who fear God, And I will tell of what He has done for my soul. I cried to Him with my mouth, And He was extolled with my tongue.If I regard wickedness in my heart, The Lord will not hear; But certainly God has heard; He has given heed to the voice of my prayer.Blessed be God, Who has not turned away my prayer Nor His lovingkindness from me."MC

Br. Mike wrote:We agree on the need to be sanctified, but sometimes I think we skip over the need for sanctification."I think we skip over the need for sanctification." This statement aligns with what Isaiah 35 is warning of. "The unclean shall not pass over it..." This is a very clear warning that unless you start walking on the Highway of Holiness you will not be able to pass over it.. but it is for those who continue on... although a fool, "by the world's standards" he shall not go astray. To understand the need for sanctification, is to understand the good news. Only those who walk with Him will continue to be saved by Him. God cannot love a sinner. Psalm 1:5 \tTherefore the ungodly shall not stand in the judgment,\tNor sinners in the congregation of the righteous. In ChristJeff

Lazarus1719 wrote:So I think the sum of it all is that we should all stop sinning and learn to obey God completely. That's sounds like a good plan to me. :-) Well said Lazarus. Let us walk that Isaiah 35 road together brother!MC

Amy Carmichael tells of a goldsmith in a village near her orphanage. She noticed the man stirring a black kettle of gold of over an open flame to burn out the dross. As he stirred he stared into the molten liquid. "How do you know when it's ready?" she asked the craftsman. "When I can see my face in it."Is this process or crisis? The refining of the silver is a familiar picture of preaching and chorus, but it may be supporting a view which needs to be challenged. Is sanctification the work of a moment or of a lifetime? Usually when people refer to Amy Carmichael's illustration or Malachi's promise to 'refined Levites' the assumption is that it is a long process. The fact of both illustrations, however, is that it is the work of an intense hour in the crucible of God's consuming fires.

Campbell Morgan: "This was his faith:" Letters p223 dated 1917 I most certainly do not believe that man ever has two natures at once. I believe that there is no reason, save such as to be found in false presentation of truth, why, from the moment of conversion, the sole delight of the soul may not be in the will of God.Campbell Morgan: "This was his faith:" Letters p227 dated 1920One thing perfectly certain is that sanctification will never mean in this life that we are brought to such a state in which it is no longer possible for us to sin; and it is equally certain that grace is available, in the power of which it is possible not to sin.

I most certainly do not believe that man ever has two natures at once. I believe that there is no reason, save such as to be found in false presentation of truth, why, from the moment of conversion, the sole delight of the soul may not be in the will of God.I truly thank Bro. Ron for bearing with me in times past to help me refine my understanding of this issue. I no longer dogmatically believe that a believer has "two natures."

The holiness we seek does not consist of human perfection or strength of will. It is a GIFT of God, a share of His own natureAmen. "A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh" (Ezekiel 36:26)"A new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and will give an heart of flesh" (Ezekiel 11:19)"Having become slaves of God, you have as fruit your holiness, and the end, everlasting life" (Romans 6:22 - translated from my Dutch Bible)"Consecrate yourselves therefore, and be holy, for I am the LORD your God. And you shall keep My statutes, and perform them: I am the LORD who sanctifies you." (Leviticus 20:7-8)- "I cannot make this change," says one. Who said you could? The Scripture which we have quoted speaks not of what man will do, but of what God will do. It is God's promise, and it is for Him to fulfill His own engagements. Trust in Him to fulfill His Word to you, and it will be done."But how is it to be done?" What business is that of yours? Must the Lord explain His methods before you will believe him? The Lord's working in this matter is a great mystery: the Holy Ghost performs it. He who made the promise has the responsibility of keeping the promise, and He is equal to the occasion. God, who promises this marvellous change, will assuredly carry it out in all who receive Jesus, for to all such He gives power to become the Sons of God. Oh that you would believe it! Oh that you would do the gracious Lord the justice to believe that He can and will do this for you, great miracle though it will be! Oh that you would believe that God cannot lie! Oh that you would trust Him for a new heart, and a right spirit, for He can give them to you! May the Lord give you faith in His promise, faith in His Son, faith in the Holy Spirit, and faith in Him, and to Him shall be praise and honor and glory forever and ever! Amen. - Charles SpurgeonHoliness is not an achievement, it's a work of God in us. It's not a "one-time"-event, it's a process. Hebrews 10:14 sums it up quite well:"For by one offering He has perfected forever those who are being sanctified"Thank You Lord, for Your grace! Thank You Lord, for Your patience with me. Thank You Lord that it's not your main purpose to make a holy man out of me, you want Christ to be seen through me. The people of this world and the Church don't ask the question: "Sir, we would like to see a holy man". They say: "Sir, we would like to see Jesus" (John 12:22). The man or woman who desires to reflect Jesus and Him alone, cannot but be holy. The man or woman whose main desire is to be holy, reflects "self" and has not yet understood what these simple words of John mean: "He must increase, but I must decrease".

In the central part of Romans Paul centres on the consequence of Adam and his disobedience. '''the sin' entered' says Rom 5:12. 'the sin' with the definite article then becomes the biblical phrase for what theologians have since called 'original/constitutional/hereditary/congential sin'. I point it out at this point in the light of the Roman references to 'freedom from sin'. As Young's translation shows these references are to 'the sin', as labelled above.Rom. 6:18 and having been freed from the sin, ye became servants to the righteousness. Rom. 6:22 And now, having been freed from the sin, and having become servants to God, ye have your fruit — to sanctification, and the end life age-during; Rom. 8:2 for the law of the Spirit of the life in Christ Jesus did set me free from the law of the sin and of the death; And each one is expressed in the Aorist. Modern linguistics prefer to see the Aorist as a simple past tense. These verses are declaring 'freedom from the power of indwelling sin' not an absence of individual transgressions. The freedom spoken of here is not happening, it has happened.

Holiness is not an achievement, it's a work of God in us. It's not a "one-time"-event, it's a process. Hebrews 10:14 sums it up quite well:Holiness is not a one-time event. Holy is a one-time event.

Is this process or crisis? The refining of the silver is a familiar picture of preaching and chorus, but it may be supporting a view which needs to be challenged. Is sanctification the work of a moment or of a lifetime?I don't see why process and crisis need to be mutually exclusive. As a matter of fact, I don't see why many of the things we are discussing need to be contrary to each other. Maybe I'm missing the zeitgeist of this place...I know it's nothing personal. Perhaps textual counterpoint and critique is how fellowship expresses itself when limited to text-chat. I know our fellowship would be more well-rounded in person.I discovered Amy Carmichaels' little goldsmith story during a period of crisis in my own life. Yet,even as the crisis has passed, the story still reminds me, that even though I make my plans, the Lord directs my steps. So crisis is part of the process. Abiding in Christ is also part of the process. Speaking of crisis, too many around here act like calamity is the worst thing God can bring to the church. It isn't...letting us continue in our ignorance and letting our hunger for Him die is the worst judgement God can inflict on us. My own personal testimony is that God's chastisement may be His strongest grace. A father's indifference is worse then His anger. Thankfully, God is not indifferent to us and to our eternity. Perhaps that's why I find it a little grievous to engage in these light sabre duels over shades of meaning in words like holiness...they cheapen the very deep work that God is faithfully doing in us. Brothers, I may not have your terminology, but I have your Jesus. Where I am ignorant of Jesus' theology, He'll not let me continue in ignorance. Yes there is the crucible that strips away our resources and arguments. I have had a portion of it and have discovered that it is not a point of fear...but of deep reassurring joy. Sometimes the best thing for your heart is to lose everything you think is important...even if it's your hidden possessions like reputation and ministry. That's when you discover something that's hidden even from the prophets: God loves us too much to let our imperfect theology get in the way of His perfect salvation. He will break every idol in our hearts.Yet, keep in mind that not all the idols of Israel were loving dieties, wooing the affections of the people away from God. Rather they were bloody unmerciful monsters who ruled by fear. Today fear is still one of the most powerful idols. Prophets and preachers, muse on this...you cannot leverage the fear of dire circumstances against someone whose fear is reserved for God alone. Only those whose hearts still secretly tremble before Baal and Astaroth fret that their health and wealth might be taken. That is why prophecies predicting nuclear war, financial collapse, and disease are over rated. The most dreaded wrath that one could prophecy is that God will no longer suffer with us...that He will abandon us to our sin, leaving us forever outside His love.Yet praise God, that is not our fate! I am hidden in Christ...I have seen His refusal to let me sin. More importantly, I have seen His desire for me to be satisfied in Him alone... I have known the pain of chastisement and drawn comfort from the faithfulness of a soverign God making sure my election. (I have also tasted the goodness of the Lord...His restoration and His blessings, both earthly and spiritual.) Through fire and water I have seen that I am His son. It is beyond comprehension that I can even make a statement like that. Yet, a son I am, belonging to the Father. He will not allow me to live in disobedience. I may not exhibit a forensic mastery of holiness doctrine, but I am sitting under a living rabbi that will not let me remain ignorant forever.Thanks guys,MC

MCI am not striving for an either/or just wanting to tease out important strands of the topic which can easily become lost in the pattern. For example if 'sanctification' is only progressive it must mean that most people spend most of their Christian experience 'unsanctified'. You will know that sanctified and holy are just the Latin and German forms of the same idea. So can we have something which is 10% holy? or 90%? even 99% would have to be judged 'unholy' or 'unsanctified'. We cannot have a percentage of wholly belonging to God; any percentage denies the meaning of the word which is to be 'wholly God's'.I grew up in my teenage years with the story of Amy Carmichael's gold refiner, but I discovered God had planned a 'perfect' work now and not over a life-time. This is not to say that no more improvement is possible. I was once a perfect 6 month baby, but I have improved (a little) and, by God's grace, may now be a perfect 63 year old! (had a birthday last week)I don't claim a forensic mastery of holiness doctrine either, but I have discovered a Perfect Saviour and know that I only have to 'continue' in what He has accomplished.

I don't claim a forensic mastery of holiness doctrine either, but I have discovered a Perfect Saviour and know that I only have to 'continue' in what He has accomplished.Forgive me Ron if I seemed put off. My comments weren't a reaction just to you...it was more of a frustration with the aggregate. I am glad that you continue in what He has accomplished. I believe that includes sharing with us younger pups the knowledge and experience you have. Thank you for further clarifying your view on "refinement."This topic certainly does have many strands...most of them are tangled in my head. Is sanctified the same as sinless? Objects in the temple were sanctified...were they sinless objects? Equally confusing is the way NT scripture talks about holiness as a completed act and as a future act. I could quote sanctification theology ranging from Charles Finney to Lewis Sperry Chafer and perhaps look less confused... and drive everyone crazy with the contradictions....Another mountain of discussion for another day I suppose. I want to make sure that I left no small offense with you. Sometimes I wish I could find more common ground with people here at SI...especially brothers like you and Lazarus who I respect greatly. Oh well, the bottom line is that I appreciate the gift that is so evident in you. As a matter of fact, I appreciate many of the different gifts I sense here at SI, from evangelism, to teaching. That's why I snoop around here I suppose...Happy Birthday to you!MC

I want to make sure that I left no small offense with you. Rest easy my brother. No offence perceived or taken! :-) More later.

Gen. 2:3 And God blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it: because that in it he had rested from all his work which God created and made. This is the first instance of the word 'sanctify'. Often 'first instances' are helpful in setting the mood for what follows. We can see from this first use that is was 'instant sanctification' not progressive. It was, in many ways, God staking His claim on something and thereby 'separating' it from others of its kind. The root word means to 'cut out' in the way you might 'cut out' a piece of pie and set it aside for someone special who hadn't yet arrived at the meal!Hence the injuction Ex. 20:8 Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy. Don't let it re-merge with the others of similar kind. It is specialisation. God has cut if out from the rest of the herd for a special purpose. In general the special purpose is that it is to be wholly the Lord's. It does not belong to anyone else. God says 'it is mine' in a unique sense although, in fact, all the other days are His too.A connected truth is that the people of Israel were instructed to 'keep' holy what God had made holy. But this is not 'progressive' sanctification; it is 'maintained' sanctification.This sense comes into the 'sanctification' of the nation of Israel. Ex. 19:5 Now therefore, if ye will obey my voice indeed, and keep my covenant, then ye shall be a peculiar treasure unto me above all people: for all the earth is mine: Here it is plainly stated that 'all... is mine' but the people of Israel were to become God's own unique people. The ASV makes the 'selection' clear; Ex. 19:5 Now therefore, if ye will obey my voice indeed, and keep my covenant, then ye shall be mine own possession from among all peoples: for all the earth is mine: notice the 'from among'. This is the essence of sanctification, division, separation, specialisation.This is just a preliminary introduction but you may see why I insist that, of its nature, sanctification cannot be partial or progressive. The NT takes up this language constantly. God's people are 'saints'; those that He has set apart for HIs own unique purpose. It probably surprises us when we discover that the most frequent term for 'Christians' in the scripture is 'saints'. It is relatively rare for a group of Christians to be addresses as 'the church' in the epistles; the most usual designation is 'the saints'. In fact, the designation 'ekklesia' translated 'church in most of our translations has a similar idea to that of 'the sanctified ones or saints'. Technically from its OT derivation, saints would be 'the cut out ones' while ekklesia would be the 'called out ones'. Neither title can be partial or progressive.

Charles Spurgeon wrote:- "I cannot make this change," says one. Who said you could? The Scripture which we have quoted speaks not of what man will do, but of what God will do. It is God's promise, and it is for Him to fulfill His own engagements. Trust in Him to fulfill His Word to you, and it will be done."But how is it to be done?" What business is that of yours? Must the Lord explain His methods before you will believe him? The Lord's working in this matter is a great mystery: the Holy Ghost performs it. Scripture tells us how it is to be done. John 16:12 “I still have many things to say to you, but you cannot bear them now. 13 However, when He, the Spirit of truth, has come, He will guide you into all truth; for He will not speak on His own authority, but whatever He hears He will speak; and He will tell you things to come. 14 He will glorify Me, for He will take of what is Mine and declare it to you. 15 All things that the Father has are Mine. Therefore I said that He will take of Mine and declare it to you.In this section of Scripture Jesus teaches that the Holy Spirit guides us into all truth. How does the Holy Spirit guides us? He speaks! How else would we know Him? "...He will guide you into all truth; for He will not speak on His own authority, but whatever He hears He will speak;, for He will tell you things to come. He will glorify Me, for He will take of what is Mine and declare it to you. What is the result of hearing and obeying? John 14:21, "He who has My commandments and keeps them, it is he who loves Me. And he who loves Me will be loved by My Father, and I will love him and manifest Myself to him."Unless one hears and obeys one will not experience Christ manifesting Himself to him. This is the only way to overcome sin. Christ manifesting Himself to those who have learned to trust and obey through the Holy Spirit's guidance. Joy of fellowship with Christ overcomes this world. 3 For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments. And His commandments are not burdensome. 4 For whatever is born of God overcomes the world. And this is the victory that has overcome the world—our faith.To live by faith mean to say, "Yes Lord," when He speaks to you. In ChristJeff

Keep talking brothers, I am learning something here. In terms of theology, alot has been written trying to capture the meaning of "sanctification." I think I am ailing from a slew of poor or incomplete "sancification doctrine" from both sides of the calvinist/arminian camps. One side says that sanctification is only a positional reality while the other says it is a gradual experimental reality culminating in a final second work of grace. Both sides have some merit but I believe are incomplete...I spent some considerable time in prayer yesterday on this most important area. The Lord shared with me something on sanctification...that I am very ignorant of it. I say this reluctantly because I have called myself a desciple and it's hardly fitting for a desciple to be vague on the idea of sanctification. Ron, observing that sanctification cannot be properly understood without it being "entire" or "complete" makes perfect sense. Though I missed it earlier...your point now seems to me to be self-evident. I think one of my problems is that I am too familiar with all of the various textbooksystems and positions. Yet, theology, even good theology, is a little like a swiss watch without the face and hands that shows fine craftsmanship but not the hour. I want to see the flesh and blood of all this. Brothers help me see the face and hands of sanctification. I want to know what sanctification is to you in life...what the Lord has taught you. I believe He can teach me through you.I need sancification 101.Could we lay the foundations by saying something along these lines... that I who was a slave to sin am no longer because I have been made free to obey God. (How and why for a follow-up conversation...) Along the same lines I, who was married to the law have been made dead so that the marriage is void. Therefore, as a former slave to sin and former partner to the law I am free and divorced in order to be completely bound and bethrothed to Jesus. These are not phased concepts but are realized "at once". In both cases our former states have been changed over to a completely new state. This is not a process or an evolution but a new creation as it were... Following these same lines can I say, without contradicting myself, that at the same time I can walk in complete obedience to Christ as a servant, I also receive undeserved Grace and Love as part of His Bride. In a way I am like those instruments that are graciously chosen for God's house who are washed and then reserved for holy service. They were entirely sanctified at their entry and yet their sanctification continues to be maintained. I note that remaining sinless is not so much the ultimate focus of the vessel as much as remaining cleansed, innocent, set apart, and reserved for God's will and pleasure. Some vessels may have not even fulfilled their intended purpose, yet they remain sanctified even as they sit waiting in the temple. Untill their day of usage comes, it is enough that they remain set apart, reserved for service.So, can we say that being cleansed and given over totally to God is the essence of being sanctified? It is not simply a term whose meaning is limited to "sinless", but in a fuller sense, a term implying "ownership", "rulership" and "belonging". Do these simple ideas I am expressing begin to scratch the surface of what sanctification is? Jeff, your thoughts regarding how this works is helpful. If we could, I would like to linger a little more on the "what" of sanctification...before the "How" we get there. This will make more sense to my pea brain... (Someone once told me that a thing must be before it can do. ;-) )If I could come to terms with this I would be so glad.In the meantime, I did want to share these two verses from John that stirred up some thoughts on this subject..."Jesus answered, "A person who has had a bath needs only to wash his feet; his whole body is clean...Now that I, your Lord and Teacher, have washed your feet, you also should wash one another's feet. "You are already clean because of the word I have spoken to you. Remain in me, and I will remain in you. No branch can bear fruit by itself; it must remain in the vine" Bless you guys,MC

So, can we say that being cleansed and given over totally to God is the essence of being sanctified? It is not simply a term whose meaning is limited to "sinless", but in a fuller sense, a term implying "ownership", "rulership" and "belonging".[font=Impact]Yes![/font] I don't mean it as a throw-away line but every Christian should be 'sinless'. If the blood of Jesus Christ cleanseth from all sin, surely anyone rightly related to Him should be 'sinless'.I see your note that you want to concentrate on the 'what' rather than the 'how'. At some stage we may need to concentrate on the 'when' and this will be a difficult area. We make so many assumptions and have different undestanding of things that the question 'who is "we'?' does need to be asked. It isn't, for example, someone who has just happened on a Bible opened at a certain verse. Bible statements always have roots. We shall need to undestand how and when a man becomes part of the 'we'.

One thing that kept me in misery for many years was a lack of understanding about the old man and the new man. I saw them as homoginized, as many others do, mainly because the old man is to me still with me. I did not understand that to God, my old man is dead, has been since my new birth. I did not realize that only my spirit was born again and destined to live forever with God, and not my old man.LahryIn what follows please understand that I am questioning your theology not your experience. I do think there is massive confusion over 'the old man'. It is not helped by almost all modern versions simply abadoning the term and switching to 'old self' or 'old nature'. This destroys the link between the old man and the new man, the first man and the second man, the first Adam and the last Adam.Theologically, I don't believe you ever had an old man... :-? not a personal one anyway. This is 'our old man'; the possessive pronoun is plural, the noun is singular. This is Adam. Neither do we have a personal 'new man'. The consequence of that would be lots of new men, while the scipture is very clear that there is only one old man and only one new man.Take a look at the repitition of the word one in this key passage in Romans;“And not only so, but we also joy in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom we have now received the atonement. Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned: (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law. Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam’s transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come. But not as the offence, so also is the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many. And not as it was by one that sinned, so is the gift: for the judgment was by one to condemnation, but the free gift is of many offences unto justification. For if by one man’s offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.) Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life. For as by one man’s disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous. Moreover the law entered, that the offence might abound. But where sin abounded, grace did much more abound: That as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal life by Jesus Christ our Lord.” (Rom. 5:11-21, KJV) That is 12 times in 10 verses. Do you get the impression that someone want us to notice one old man and one new man?In this expression of truth there have only ever been two men. 1Cor. 15:47 The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man is the Lord from heaven.

Brother Lahry wrote:We have the choice. One brings forth favor from God, the other brings forth chastisement. But nowhere that I can find in God's Word does it say that the flesh, the carnal sinful nature of the old man will ever find itself total victor over my born again Spirit. My flesh can never prevail entirely over me and win this war. Why? Because the war is already won. It was won 2000 years ago. Glory be to God, now and forever amen.Rom. 8:12 Therefore, brethren, we are debtors—not to the flesh, to live according to the flesh. 13 For if you live according to the flesh you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live. This is the choice you speak of. But what does Paul warn the brethren of? "For if you live according to the flesh you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live.Here Paul teaches clearly that we are given all things by the Spirit, yet the choice to listen to the old man still is real as the choice to listen to the Spirit. What is the outcome of you not putting to death the deeds of the body? Death. Now how can one die if he has not been made alive by the Spirit of God?I believe that being born again is the door by which we enter into all the promises of God. Yet to realize those promises require faith. When we speak of God's unmerited favor it seems like we try only to apply His mercy to our lives. But really what does it mean to a believer when God favors you? What is the substance of that favor? Barnabas could actually discern that God's favor had been poured out on the gentiles. It is not only mercy. What enabled Barnabas to discern that the Spirit was working in Antioch? Acts 11:22 Then news of these things came to the ears of the church in Jerusalem, and they sent out Barnabas to go as far as Antioch. 23 When he came and had seen the grace of God, he was glad, and encouraged them all that with purpose of heart they should continue with the Lord. What was the substance of this grace?In ChristJeff

That is 12 times in 10 verses. Do you get the impression that someone want us to notice one old man and one new man?In this expression of truth there have only ever been two men.1Cor. 15:47 The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man is the Lord from heaven.That is interesting! I have heard you teach on this before Bro. Ron and wondered if you could expend that to help us understand how this plays out. Does it mean that we share Adam's sinful nature until we are in Christ and once we are in Him- we have received His nature? It is very difficult to see this playing out on a personal level, but I'm coming around. God Bless,-Robert

I see your note that you want to concentrate on the 'what' rather than the 'how'. At some stage we may need to concentrate on the 'when' and this will be a difficult area. Ron, Please don't let me pick the music...let's hear all the themes including the prelude! In the end...I know that these things may not be neatly linear in life but for the sake of right thinking I want to hear all the movements of the composition as it were. It would be nice to hear your complete thinking on this matter...from a to z. I know that all of us could rapid fire questions depending on where we are... but this student assembles ideas better when all of the pieces are layed out rightly related to each other. Lahry, Thank you much for what you shared. Your posts always seem full of grace to me. The words ministered to me. Even the length of your testimony touched me. Bless you brother. You said many fine things but I wanted to talk about this in particular...So beloved, the moment we become justified, we become sanctified in God's eyes. We are one hundred percent a child of God, though yet a babe. But the maturing process that trains and molds us into the image of Christ as HIs representative is a day by day adventure with God that takes us through the entirety of our life here on earth.Praise God that we are not the source of our sanctification... "Jesus also suffered, that He might sanctify His people with His own blood, suffered without the gate" (Hebrews 13:12). However, it is at this very point that I have had some personal confusion. I have equated maturing in Christ with a kind of "gradual sanctification." Almost like I was saying that my imperfect experience was slowly catching up to the perfect reality...Suddenly I am beginning to see "living as sanctified" as an issue related to maturity but keenly separate. For instance, I expect my 11 year old son to be obedient to me yet I do not expect him to be a man yet. So it is possible for me to expect that he sets aside his will for mine even while I know he remains a young boy full of wholesome mischief instead of manly character.(LOL)I do not measure him according to my responsibilities but according to his. His commitment to my will is what will produce in him a better manhood because I am the one most committed to his success as a man. (Though even in this analogy the idea becomes confusing because we might say that a good and obedient boy is "mature" even though he is not a man at all.)The point is that while immaturity proceeds maturity, it does not need to be a place of disobedience and therefore sin. I think this is what Paul meant when he said "Do not let people despise your youth." Youth, in the physical and spiritual cannot be skipped over or denied...but it need not be despicable.When I equate maturity with sanctification I can get into trouble along the following lines; someone might say that they are "entirely sanctified" and I would dismiss them as being naive because it seemed to me they were claiming to be entirely like Christ the God-Man. That seemed a little like an arrogant high school basketball star saying he is equal in performance and ability to Michael Jordan. I believe this is a point of much confusion on this subject.My error, (I believe it was an error) leaves a Christian with two extreme polars that frustrate the sincere heart. On one hand there is total Christilike perfection which is beyond description and on the other hand there is accepted lawlessness because the law has been decreed impossible. The latter may seem pleasing but it saddens the heart desiring to see more of God. So when Paul would talk in terms of an athelete training for a race, I would assume he was talking about training to be more and more sanctified...which would set up conflicts in other texts. I now wonder if Paul was simply talking about how an athelete gives his heart completely over to the race at hand. For instance, if I am training for a competition I do not imagine that I will be the fastest runner in the world but that does not give me an excuse to eat jelly-filled donuts. The Lord may not expect me to run as fast as He can but he certainly has not permitted me to enjoy whatever food I want because I plan on losing. A serious athelete can not eat what others' eat...he has given himself over to his trainer's diet.So, a young basketball player may not be able to perform like Michael Jordan but a young player can bring the same dedication to the game as Michael Jordan. In this aspect, the young and the seasoned player can be the same...not in strength and skill but in heart. "Your attitude should be the same as that of Christ Jesus...made himself nothing, taking the very nature of a servant,...and became obedient to death. even death on a cross!" Well, these are just elementary thoughts. I'm trying to untangle the strands of maturity, sinlessness, and obedience so that sanctification can be better understood and articulated to my own children. I grew up as a Christian wandering between the impossible and the unacceptable...I am now thinking that the sanctification of my heart for the Father, the desire of every good son, is possible and certainly acceptable.Bless you guys.

Brother Mike wrote:My error, (I believe it was an error) leaves a Christian with two extreme polars that frustrate the sincere heart. On one hand there is total Christilike perfection which is beyond description and on the other hand there is accepted lawlessness because the law has been decreed impossible. The latter may seem pleasing but it saddens the heart desiring to see more of God. The words of the Bible, the words of man's doctrine, the words of those who seek to comfort by thoughts and ideas cannot satisfy. Only by the Spirit will one find rest. Only by the power of His Spirit will one know how God sanctifies those who are His by grace through faith. There are no formula's only the Spirit.You cannot seperate the whats, whens, or hows. That is an endeavor of men. Look for the new song that God promises to those who are His. IN ChristJeff

I grew up as a Christian wandering between the impossible and the unacceptableI did too. I am believing and have been believing as of late that we must believe completely in the impossible scriptures as possible and nothing less then that. That is the only way I've managed to see a genuine change in my life. It makes me get to the heart of the issue (my sin) and put my faith in Him completely. Scripture in the past year has moved completely out of the realm of my knowledge and have been seen as things to believe in completely. It's a completely different experience as my Spirit actually is getting fed now.

It would be nice to hear your complete thinking on this matter...from a to z. Well I started this once but got sidetracked. At present I had done about a-f I should think but there will be enough here to show my direction...try to 'assemble this'... Christian Perfection... or 'dis-assemble' as the case may be...

Perhaps we should look at what the word "sanctify" means. It means "to render". I have never heard this before and can't quite square it with the origins or definitions of the word. Where did you get it from?

At present I had done about a-f I should think but there will be enough here to show my direction...Thanks Ron...I was wondering if you already had something in the works on this subject.MC

There are no formula's only the Spirit...You cannot seperate the whats, whens, or hows. That is an endeavor of men. Look for the new song that God promises to those who are His.Nicely put and I certainly think worth noting. I like the music analogy...we cannot understand music by trying to formally percieve it through it's parts and interrelations of parts. Yet that is precisely how most music teachers teach music...not to replace or subsitute the experience but to establish a common language that will allow those with experience to guide the novice.I apologize because I probably pushed my "assemble" metaphor too far. Bonhoffer once said that "Each man makes a fool of himself the best way he knows how." The best way I know how is to come up with smart sounding metaphors that only confuse the matter.I only want to say that I am not looking so much for a formula of sanctification (insert tab a into slot b ect.) as much as a description of it. (I apologize if I gave the impression otherwise.) To expect a right description of so important a matter as sanctification is only reasonable. It is true that men seek to analyse truth in their heads without knowing truth in their hearts... Yet right understanding can also be an endeavor of the Spirit... "Thou hast the words of eternal life." Head knowledge can't subsitute for actually listening to the music, but a little music theory may help me with music recognition and appreciation:-) (Afterall, there are many songs titled "sanctification"... are they all copyrighted by the Spirit?)As for listening...I hear that I need more instruction... ;-)I believe the Spirit can breathe on me through the words of His teachers. Thanks Jeff,MC

I hear you Brothers Mike and Lahry, I hear that what you speak of is the finished work of Christ. And I say Yes to all that you say in terms of the fact that Christ's blood is sufficient. Paul tells the Corinthians that they have been given everything in Christ. All knowledge all wisdom, all gifts come from Christ and were received by the Corinthians. This is the fact that I see Brother Lahry expressing in his thoughts that he has shared. Brother Ron also expresses this same precept. And it is the truth according to Scripture. Yet, having been given all things pretaining to Christ, Paul declares that they do not know the things of the Spirit. This is where I am focusing on. I am trying to progress from the definition of what salvation means to those who have been given the free gift of Christ just like the Corinthians have been given. The Scriptures declare that all things are available to those who have entered into a relationship with Christ through the Holy Spirit.My question, the believers have the Holy Spirit, and yet do not understand the things of the Spirit. They continue to follow the carnal mind. This is their problem. Paul points this out to them. This is the point where Paul begins to explain the Corinthians failures. This is also the point of our discussion concerning sanctification. Sanctification by the Spirit, the Corinthians didn't know.In ChristJeff

My question, the believers have the Holy Spirit, and yet do not understand the things of the Spirit. They continue to follow the carnal mind. This is their problem. Paul points this out to them. This is the point where Paul begins to explain the Corinthians failures. This is also the point of our discussion concerning sanctification. Brother Jeff, You said that in a way that I can understand your meaning. Thanks much. Within your admonition to not test these things with the carnal mind, I hear the confidence you have in the Spirit's ministry and witness to us. It is very encouraging!I also believe that we can test things with a spiritual mind. I hope that doesn't sound like double talk...I don't think that knowing a definition of a thing is the same as knowing the thing...yet there are teachers, like yourself, who have the ability to provide healthy benchmarks to test what is in our hearts. Submit one to another...examine yourselves...Thanks again for the warning. I believe it is wisdom and I appreciate your sensitivity in this area. MC

Brother Mike,I am sorry for maybe the sense of how I have communicated my thoughts with too much passion and not enough clarity. I will endeavor to ask this question in a different sense.Again as I have stated before, Paul decerned first, that the Corinthians were not a spiritual people. Secondly, Paul identified that because the Corinthians remain following their carnal minds they are suffering from the state in which they choose to remain. Sin is still manifesting itself in them. Do you see this correlation?This illustration given to us by Paul about the problems of the Corinthians demonstrates what Paul teaches in Romans 8: 5 For those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who live according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit. 6 For to be carnally minded is death, but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. 7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God; for it is not subject to the law of God, nor indeed can be. 8 So then, those who are in the flesh cannot please God. So Paul identifies the two paths a believer may follow. Paul also discerns that the Galatians stumble in the same way. Gal. 3:3 Are you so foolish? Having begun in the Spirit, are you now being made perfect by the flesh? Paul is trying to teach these believers about the nature of our relationship with the Lord. I believe that there are many today who live under the same situation that Paul identifies in the Corinthians and the Galatians.Sister Diane (roadsign) speaks of living as a believer who lived according to the flesh. Only through the work of God did she come to understand the things of the Spirit. There are many thoughts to consider here. As this thread points to the promises that God would make sufficient provisions for His people to overcome sin. This promise cannot be diluted with the doctrines of today. What do we not see that Scripture points to? Do we really want to go deeper into this discussion or do we remain, regurgitating the thoughts of theologians.In ChristJeff

I will endeavor to ask this question in a different sense....Do we really want to go deeper into this discussion or do we remain, regurgitating the thoughts of theologians.Thank you again Jeff. I confess I was tempted to say enough is enough...but praise God there may be a method to your madness afterall. I heard the Lord...The point you make is the vital one... There are many good points that can get between us and our right relationship to Jesus. Even the priority of my holiness and my perfection can become an obsession that twarts true devotion to Christ. There is no safe ground, outside of Jesus, when it comes to the pitfall that you are talking about. Right devotion does not imply strain or effort. Sensitivity to the Spirit is not a psuedo-skill like zen meditation...all claims of aquired skills in hearing God are fraudulent. Likewise, holiness by method or process is also a fraud. The issue is a heart rightly related to Jesus Himself. To be rightly related to theology and propositions is powerless because these things do not require a response and do not promise grace...these things are only intellectual property. The Spirit requires a response. This is but one way that we know He is a living Word...Yet a child can respond to the Holy Spirit just as easily as a Phd. of Theology. This is just one proof that our relationship to the Holy Spirit is not enhanced by experience, skill, or education.I say it again. The issue is a heart rightly connected to Jesus. There is no such thing as partial devotion made more complete with practice. Such faulty reasoning is how the heart tries to clothe it's nakedness from God's light. Sanctification is not a human devotion to purity...it is a pure unobstructed connection to Christ. All procedures, processes, and progressions towards holiness are misleading and powerless. There is no dimmer switch to adjust. There is only the light with the promise from God that, by faith, we do not need to live in darkness anymore. Jesus is the amen to all of God's promises. To say anymore with words on this point may become repetitive. All I can say is pray for me that I do indeed have a heart that is rightly related to Jesus.In fact, pray only for that in me brother Jeff. For what need is there to find a right understanding of sanctification if one is rightly connected to Jesus? ...to Jesus alone. MC(Bless you Ron and Jeff...)

Br Mike wrote; There is no such thing as partial devotion made more complete with practice. Such faulty reasoning is how the heart tries to clothe it's nakedness from God's light. Sanctification is not a human devotion to purity...it is a pure unobstructed connection to Christ. All procedures, processes, and progressions towards holiness are misleading and powerless. There is no dimmer switch to adjust. There is only the light with the promise from God that, by faith, we do not need to live in darkness anymore. Jesus is the amen to all of God's promises. AMEN. I believe the prayer of Psalm 51 speaks to the only right relationship that man is to pursue, for the Spirit gives us the "Light of Life." Psa. 51:0 To the Chief Musician. A Psalm of David when Nathan the prophet went to him, after he had gone in to Bathsheba. Psa. 51:1 \tHave mercy upon me, O God,\tAccording to Your lovingkindness;\tAccording to the multitude of Your tender mercies,\tBlot out my transgressions. 2 \tWash me thoroughly from my iniquity,\tAnd cleanse me from my sin. 3 \tFor I acknowledge my transgressions,\tAnd my sin is always before me. 4 \tAgainst You, You only, have I sinned,\tAnd done this evil in Your sight—\tThat You may be found just when You speak,\tAnd blameless when You judge. 5 \tBehold, I was brought forth in iniquity,\tAnd in sin my mother conceived me. 6 \tBehold, You desire truth in the inward parts,\tAnd in the hidden part You will make me to know wisdom. 7 \tPurge me with hyssop, and I shall be clean;\tWash me, and I shall be whiter than snow. 8 \tMake me hear joy and gladness,\tThat the bones You have broken may rejoice. 9 \tHide Your face from my sins,\tAnd blot out all my iniquities. 10 \tCreate in me a clean heart, O God,\tAnd renew a steadfast spirit within me. 11 \tDo not cast me away from Your presence,\tAnd do not take Your Holy Spirit from me. 12 \tRestore to me the joy of Your salvation,\tAnd uphold me by Your generous Spirit. 13 \tThen I will teach transgressors Your ways,\tAnd sinners shall be converted to You. 14 \tDeliver me from the guilt of bloodshed, O God,\tThe God of my salvation,\tAnd my tongue shall sing aloud of Your righteousness. 15 \tO Lord, open my lips,\tAnd my mouth shall show forth Your praise. 16 \tFor You do not desire sacrifice, or else I would give it;\tYou do not delight in burnt offering. 17 \tThe sacrifices of God are a broken spirit,\tA broken and a contrite heart—\tThese, O God, You will not despise. 18 \tDo good in Your good pleasure to Zion;\tBuild the walls of Jerusalem. 19 \tThen You shall be pleased with the sacrifices of righteousness,\tWith burnt offering and whole burnt offering;\tThen they shall offer bulls on Your altar. I am convinced that if we believers want what God's words give us here in Psalm 51, the leading of the Holy Spirit would gives us Christ as the substance for what we hope for. We have access into all grace through faith in Christ.The Spirit will show us the only way, Christ.In ChristJeff

Br. Lahry wrote:I love the Amish People and so admire them for their steadfastness in holding onto the ordinary and common while rejecting the fads of this world. But that alone cannot save us. We can reject the fads, the greed, and the lust, but if we do not accept Calvary and the shed blood and suffering of Jesus Christ, then we are as lost as the gravest of sinner who makes no pretense to serve the living God. Alleluia.Whether one follows the ways of the Amish or the Purpose Driven program, many fail because they choose to live under the law. These programs do not destroy pride, in many ways these programs enhance the nature of pride within those who live by the program. Only the Spirit can free us from pride and self preservation. This is the substance of the nature of grace that God gives us that enables us to see ourselves as we really are. As we learn as David learned that we desperately need the guidance of the Holy Spirit to show us, to lead us, in the way that we should go, then we learn about a treasure that changes the nature of our hope. We learn that there is no hope outside of Christ. All other things are futile. This is where the Spirit takes us. In ChristJeff

Heb. 12:1 Therefore we also, since we are surrounded by so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which so easily ensnares us, and let us run with endurance the race that is set before us, 2 looking unto Jesus, the author and finisher of our faith, who for the joy that was set before Him endured the cross, despising the shame, and has sat down at the right hand of the throne of God. How is Jesus who is the author and finisher of our faith able to overcome the sin that so easily ensnares us? In ChristJeff

Brother Lahry wrote;He has overcome sin by His shed bloodHow does faith give us access to His shed blood?In ChristJeff

It would be nice to hear your complete thinking on this matter...from a to z. I know that all of us could rapid fire questions depending on where we are... but this student assembles ideas better when all of the pieces are layed out rightly related to each other. MCOne of the things that gets me into trouble fairly regularly on these forums is the whole question of when a man or women receives the Spirit in the New Covenant sense. This is obviously a vital factor in my own thinking on this issue. I see John Baptist who was 'filled with the Spirit from his mother's womb' (Luke 1:15,41) yet acknowledged that he did not have the Baptism which only Jesus could administer. Matt. 3:14 But John forbad him, saying, I have need to be baptized of thee, and comest thou to me? This, of course, is because the Baptism in the Spirit was not available at the time of John Baptist's ministry. John then, was filled but not baptised??

Ron B. said,One of the things that gets me into trouble fairly regularly on these forums is the whole question of when a man or women receives the Spirit in the New Covenant sense... I see John Baptist who was 'filled with the Spirit from his mother's womb' (Luke 1:15,41) yet acknowledged that he did not have the Baptism which only Jesus could administer. A couple of verses comes to mind...in the context of this question, could you offer your commentary on these, and perhaps some others that you see fit?"Ephesians:13-14 And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God's possession—to the praise of his glory."Galatians 3:2 "...Did you receive the Spirit by observing the law, or by believing what you heard?Thanks much,MC