Universalism Experiences a Revival

When we think we have now heard everything here comes something else to bedevil Believers...it really is nothing new, but an old idea that has experienced a resurgence among people you thought were stable.

This is the belief of universalism and/or that there is no eternal hell fire.

I was doing an online search for a certain person's writings. This particular website had a lot of books online. As I scrolled down that list, I was surprised to find a fair number of books that taught this doctrine.

Embracing this doctrine was unheard of among conservative Mennonites but that is no longer the case. Right on its heels is the doctrine that homos are made this way and that one should cut them some slack.

I am not sure how accepting this doctrine of universalism has become among churches, but I suspect it is gaining a foothold because it denies eternal punishment for sins and that all will be eventually reconciled with the LORD Jesus.

I know faithfulness would have been greatly enhanced if people had been more careful what they chose to read...yet, on the other hand if there was ever a doubt as to the absoluteness of God's Word, one will always be vulnerable to deception regardless what form it appears in.

God bless.

The first thing I wanted to address is how Universalism ended up being more acceptable to Christianity and how it has infiltrated many congregation's thoughts.

It all comes down to the character of God. We all know God is love. And we know according to the Bible what real love looks like. So the question that started being asked was this: "Can a loving God really destroy people just because they didn't get this life exactly right?" And the immediate response was "Of course not! That would be evil!" However, God does love the World. But God also hates the unrighteous. And God, being perfect and just must execute justice. Not because He is bound by some cosmic law, but because that is exactly what He says He will do. And THAT is why Jesus Christ had to come. Because there was NO WAY we could have been justified by God without someone paying the penalty of our sin since God already said He would destroy the wicked. And we all know that the Bible says that there are none who are good. Not even one. That is why Christ was our propitiation. The wrath of God that we deserve was poured out on Him. God made Him who had no sin to be sin for us so that we might become the righteousness of God in Him. Now, that price was NOT payed for everyone (although the Gospel is offered to all), but only those who believe. Because justification is not applied to us unless we repent and believe the Gospel in faith.

The truth is, God must punish the wicked because He is loving and just. However, because they don't know God, they fashioned a god out of their own liking, made it unjust, and called it by the same name they call our God. And proclaim that this new, 'more-loving' god is really the God of the Bible. Which is not true.

The 2nd thing is this. I do believe that homosexuals are born that way. The Bible makes it clear we were all born in sins and homosexuality, as perverse as it is, is exactly how I would expect a lost person to act. That is why they need to be born again. Cause (and I heard this from Tony Evans. I didn't come up with it) they were not born right the first time.

A Christian should not be a homosexual. And I don't think it is written in their genes.

Perhaps it might be helpful to actually read one of these universal reconciliation books, such as the "Inescapable Love of God" by Thomas Talbot. You certainly may not agree, but at least you can speak and think intelligently about their position. There is nothing to be afraid of.

Universalism essentially thinks God is the Great Apologizer. He is Santa Clause, the forgiver/ excuser, the ultimate liberal.

What is the word for sticking my finger toward my throat to induce a gagging vomit?

Our God saves people- people who are trying to destroy themselves in defiance of God. He came to seek and to save the lost, to warn them of Hell's final place of unrest, and to ensure justice for any who turn to Him along the path of sin.

It is so important to know what God can do, and what He can't do. If He were free to save anyone He wished to save, He would just do that. There would be no need for the sacrifice of His Son, that would be needless extra cruelty!

The price of that would be no justice for anyone, from a god with no character. And that is not how it works. God is the moral governor of the universe, and will never apologize to anyone for His mistakes because there aren't any.

What is Hell? Hell is the best God can do for those who want nothing to do with Him.

Be highly suspicious of any doctrine that makes its appeal to the mind of flesh rather than the spirit.

universalism denies the complete message of the cross.

the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing but to us that believe it is the power of God.

universalism is a doctrine of the devil and denies the power of God. Any teaching that denies the power of God, we are warned and told to turn away from.

we are to hate every false way, so I would not subject myself to reading or listening to any false doctrine

Blessings...from brother rbanks

TMK,

I am not so sure that it is safe to read lit by people whose theology is contaminated with false doctrine. Their thinking process is contagious and will infect other areas of life, especially in how one looks at Scripture. You will think you are sound enough, strong enough that you can read this stuff and not be infected by it - I know there are a few who can, but they are rare. What will happen is that this mindset will lie in the corners of your mind and at a moment when you are not aware, the devil will slip a piece of that into your mindset...That devil is sly! Don't give him a quarter! Got enough devils to fight without reading stuff that was inspired by demons!

We must be ever so diligent! One needs to immerse himself/herself in the WORD, walk with the LORD allowing His spirit to be our guide. We do not have to educate our minds about the perversions out there. Just be familiar with the genuine and the counterfeit will become obvious.

The reality of universalism is that it appears so loving, hence its appeal! And who does not want to be loving?? This doctrine appeals strongly to those who have loved ones that spurned the gospel. It is tempting, I promise - been there! Don't be a vessel whom the devil will use to tempt another, please!

AMEN! just-in.

just-in wrote:

"There is no need of Christ if all will be saved (whether they want to be or not)."

Proponents of universal reconciliation would dispute this statement most emphatically.

That is why I recommend reading some of the leading authoris on this topic to at least get an idea of what they actually believe. The good scholarly ones strongly support their position with scripture and deal quite handily with all the objections you have raised.

I guess my uneasiness about the traditional view of hell (i.e. conscious eternal torment) is that if this view is correct, then the cosmic scorecard in regard to souls looks something like this:

Jesus: 3%
Satan: 97%

That should give anyone pause. Let's put it this way: I HOPE that the way hell has traditionally been taught is not correct. It may be, but I hope that it is not.

I guess my uneasiness about the traditional view of hell (i.e. conscious eternal torment) is that if this view is correct, then the cosmic scorecard in regard to souls looks something like this:

Jesus: 3%
Satan: 97%

That should give anyone pause. Let's put it this way: I HOPE that the way hell has traditionally been taught is not correct. It may be, but I hope that it is not.

______________

The Word does tell us that JESUS way is NARROW! and satan way is broad so that probably tells us something. Few will enter the narrow gate.

God bless
mj

TMK,

God and Satan are not locked in some epic battle for souls. If no one ever believed, God would still be just as Great, just as glorious, just as wonderful, etc as He has always been. God's glory and goodness is in no way dependent upon us. He doesn't need us. We all, by our own selves, are condemned to die. We DESERVE an eternity in hell. Why? Because we are children of wrath. God is Holy. What does that mean? It means that God is perfect and His standards are perfect and He is like nothing else in this universe. Totally set apart. There is nothing to which we can compare Him. Being perfect, God cannot just forgive everyone. Again, not because He is bound by some law, but because it is His nature not to leave the wicked unpunished. An eternity in Hell fits the crime, because we, in open rebellion, have rejected what ALL creation has cried out from the beginning--the glory of God. And it isn't that you have sinned here and there, it is that everything you do is sin. Everything. Why? Because we are corrupt and even our best attempts at doing good are always selfishly motivated and steeped in self-righteousness. But more than that, we were wicked from our mother's wombs. God will execute His justice against the wicked, against those who hate Him--which is everyone. However, God loves the world. He takes no pleasure in the destruction of the wicked. Yet, we MUST pay the price for our rebellion! So, God, being rich in mercy, sent His precious, only Son--Jesus Christ. Jesus gave Himself willingly to die in our place. And God poured out the cup of His wrath upon Christ on that cross! It was not the nails, it was not the wood, it was not the agony of physical pain that Jesus sweated great drops of blood over; it was the wrath of His Father. God made Him who had no sin to be sin for us so that we might become the righteousness of God in Him. So God slaughtered His only Son (Isaiah 53 says it pleased Him to crush the Messiah), and forsook Him because He became sin. Jesus Christ served as a propitiation (a sacrifice to appease the wrath of God) for us who would believe. And on the 3rd day, Christ, defeating death, rose again so that all those who would believe would too be resurrected. He was the first among many bretheren to rise and we, who have believed, will rise as well when He comes for us. Thusly, all who believe upon Him will receive eternal life. What does John 3 say? "For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten son that whoever believes in Him will not perish but have everlasting life. For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world might be saved through Him. He who believes is not condemned, but He who does not believe is condemned already because they have not believed on the name of the only begotten Son of God."

All who believe become justified and the righteousness of Jesus Christ is imputed to us. We become righteous because Jesus Christ has already paid the penalty of our sins. He takes our hearts of stone and gives us hearts of flesh. He takes us, who are dead in our trespasses and sins and gives us life in Jesus Christ. We were not His people, but He has called us His people. We are adopted and become children of God. We all like sheep have gone astray, we have turned each one to his own way, but the Lord has laid on Him the iniquity of us all. We believe and so we live. Those who do not believe are dead. They will be cast into the lake of fire where the worm does not die and the fire is not quenched. Just as God made a distinction between His people who were slaves in Egypt and the Egyptians who enslaved them, so God will make a distinction between His people who have believed on the name of Jesus Christ and those who have not.

This is the Gospel. And even if we or an angel from heaven should preach to you something other than what has been layed before us so clearly in the scriptures, let him be accursed.

Universalism defies this Gospel.

Havok-

You are preaching to the choir, at least to some extent. But thanks for the excellent presentation.

All I have suggested is that people actually do some reading on their own so they can get a clearer understanding.

There are three primary views of hell that **true** born again believers may hold:

1) Eternal conscious torment
2) Conditional Immortality (annihilationism)
3) Universal Reconciliation

To make blanket statements like "universalism defies this gospel" simply illustrates the fact that you do not truly understand what responsible and capable proponents of views 2 and 3 actually teach. We all know that word "gospel" means "good news." Is it good news that perhaps 99% of the souls that have ever lived will be consigned to everlasting torment? Why would God set up a system where this is the case, especially where He is "not willing that **any** should perish?" I think this question is important to consider.

I have done much reading of the main proponents of views 2 and 3, so it is frustrating to me to see that there is so little understanding of what they actually believe and how they support these views with scripture.

Whenever this topic is discussed, people's interpretations are driven by forgone theological conclusions, particularly their 'a priori' belief that only some will ultimately be saved. This belief may in fact be true, but it is worthwhile to examine whether the scriptures truly teach this to be true, and by trying to avoid interpreting scripture through our foregone conclusions. I realize this is exceedingly difficult, especially with a controversial topic like this. We find this to be true in discussions on eschatology. People like their own eschatology and don't like to be confronted with other legitimate possibilities.

The concept of "eternal fire" is entirely absent from the OT, and is only mentioned 3 times in the NT (twice in Matthew, once in Jude). The word translated as "eternal" is "ainios" and does not necessarily mean "eternal" as in "never ending." In Jude 7, it definitely does not mean this:

"just as Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding cities, which likewise indulged in sexual immorality and pursued unnatural desire, serve as an example by undergoing a punishment of **eternal (ainios)** fire."

Was the fire that rained down on Sodom and Gomorrah eternal- as in everlasting? If so, then it would qualify as the chief wonder of the world --- fire that is eternal and unquenchable. But we know that this fire is no longer raining or burning.

Is. 34:8-10 (apocalyptic genre) reads:
"For it is the day of the Lord’s vengeance,
The year of recompense for the cause of Zion.
Its streams shall be turned into pitch,
And its dust into brimstone;
Its land shall become burning pitch.
It shall not be quenched night or day;
Its ****smoke shall ascend forever***."

Compare this to another passage in the apocalyptic genre, Rev 14:11:

"And the smoke of their torment ***ascends forever and ever***."

Q: Is the smoke in Edom still ascending?

Tmk,

Are you leaning toward those who deny the power of God.

Universalism does not only teach that hell is not eternal but that all will be saved in the end anyway or come out all right.

Jesus said that "ye must be born again" in order to enter the kingdom of heaven.

John 1:12-13 (KJV)
But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

This is dangerous heresy that denies the very words of Jesus. It gives people false hope and it sounds like it is having an effect on you.

Blessings...from brother rbanks

Matthew 22:32, Mark 12:27, and Luke 20:38 all say that the OT does in fact speak to Eternal Life. There are many, many verses that say such. They may not say "eternal life" but it is not necessary when so clearly stated. Look at the last few verses of Psalm 17. David makes it clear that those who have there hope in only this life are foolish. But when David awakens, he will be satisfied with his likeness.

Matthew 25:46--"And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal." Both use the exact same word. Is heaven only temporary? Most of the arguements made that hell is not eternal can be used to say heaven is equally uneternal. That isn't a proof in and of itself, but it does significantly weaken all arguments based on that kind of logic.

Revelation 20:10 makes it clear through the use of "night and day" that eternal does not just mean an age or eon. It goes on and on and on.

I have heard and read arguements for both Annihilationism and Universal Reconciliation. Both are false. They are generated from a misunderstanding of the Scriptures, a misunderstanding of the fallness of man, a misunderstanding of the holiness and righteousness of God and they both completely invalidate the need for Jesus Christ to come.

Just-in,

I was looking up those same verses the same time you were...lol

Hey Guys-

I dont this to be a thread about universalism.. trust me it would go on for the next 3 years. I visit another forum on occasion and there are discussions there on this topic at least that old.

Plus I now recall that this is not a subject the moderators want discussed here at sermonindex.

For the record, I am not a proponent of universal reconciliation.

But I will admit that I have a HUGE problem with the doctrine that hell is a place of eternal conscious torment. If it is true, of course I will have to deal with it.

As a practical matter for myself, I don't plan on having to ultimately worry about which viewpoint is actually correct.

TMK:
What do you make of the words of CHRIST (who is in fact quoting some of the OT)?: Mark 9:43-48.

“If your hand causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter into life maimed, rather than having two hands, to go to hell, into the fire that shall NEVER be quenched— where

‘Their worm does not die
And the fire is not quenched.’

And if your foot causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life lame, rather than having two feet, to be cast into hell, into the fire that shall NEVER be quenched— where

‘Their worm does not die,
And the fire is not quenched.’

And if your eye causes you to sin, pluck it out. It is better for you to enter the kingdom of God with one eye, rather than having two eyes, to be cast into hell fire— where

‘Their worm does not die
And the fire is not quenched.'"

This passage clearly states that the fire will NEVER be quenched. I think that never=eternal.

The other thing that this passage should make us understand is that we DO NOT understand how evil sin is. (If our eye causes us to sin, would we really pluck it out? We would if we understood how evil sin is. NOTE: I am not suggesting people should pluck out their eyes! Just TURN FROM SIN.)

This is why many have such a huge problem with the doctrine of hell being an eternal conscious torment. If we had a proper understanding of sin, then we would have no trouble with this. Christ Himself and God the Father, who are the most merciful and gracious, much more than any of us can be, have no problem with this. Why? Because they understand what sin is.

My husband used to always say, when this subject came up: Why do we ask how could a good God send people to an eternal hell? That is the wrong question from the wrong perspective so it will provide the wrong answer. The proper question is: How evil is sin that even ONE sin will condemn you to hell? How evil is sin that our Lord had to die and suffer on the cross for even ONE sin, so that we could be spared from hell?

If we focus more on understanding the nature of sin and the holiness of God, we have less problems with this doctrine.

Natalie

Hey All--

I appreciate the questions and challenges on this topic-- but I am serious that the moderators don't want this discussed. When I first joined the forum i made some comments regarding universal reconciliation and I was asked by the mediators not to discuss it.

I apologize to the mediators for discussing it here.. the topic had not come up for a while and I typed before I thought.

Just one comment regarding Jesus's discussion of cutting off hands and gouging out eyes... Gehenna (hell) was an actual physical place (a dump) outside the city gates where fires were perpetually burning.

And with regard to the nature and seriousness of sin-- did not God know that man would sin?

And with that, I will not discuss this any further.

Blaine, it appears to me that the LORD is on a fast track in exposing false teachers. How sad it is that people who used to embrace orthodoxy are departing from it.

And it all began by listening to the easy, smooth voice saying, "aw, God is too loving - he wouldn't do anything like that would he? That would be just too terrible..." Tell that voice "NO!" and see what happens!

havok20x,

Thank you for giving the biblical and orthodox position on the eternal destiny of the elect and the reprobate.

The fact that you would have to do so on this forum shows how far this generation has fallen into false teachings. But, thank you for standing up as a watchman.

In Christ,
Renoncer

____________________________________________________________
QUOTE:
"And with regard to the nature and seriousness of sin-- did not God know that man would sin?"
______________________________________________________________

Yes, he did. Scripture tells us that Jesus was slain from the foundation of the world.

Actually, the fact that God knew this would happen before he created man flies in face of common sense; it sounds foolish. Scripture also tells us the foolishness of God exceeds the wisdom of man. Since this is the case, one must back off and let God be God, knowing full well that what he does is best. Our perception is extremely limited - He sees much more then we do and because of it, I will trust Him to do what He sees as best. Our best is fraught with error,
rooted in ignorance. A lot of things happen in life that makes little or no sense at all, but God uses these things to help us understand our limitations. We do well to learn these lessons and make appropriate applications when needed.

TMK said: "Whenever this topic is discussed, people's interpretations are driven by forgone theological conclusions, particularly their 'a priori' belief that only some will ultimately be saved. This belief may in fact be true, but it is worthwhile to examine whether the scriptures truly teach this to be true, and by trying to avoid interpreting scripture through our foregone conclusions."

---------------------------------------------------

It is not an "a priori" if the Scriptures actually teach this.

Namely, Matthew 7:13-14: "Enter by the narrow gate. For the gate is wide and the way is easy that leads to destruction, and those who enter by it are MANY. For the gate is narrow and the way is hard that leads to life, and those who find it are FEW."

Also, Luke 13:23-24: "And someone said to him, "Lord, will those who are saved be few?" And he said to them, "Strive to enter through the narrow door. For many, I tell you, will seek to enter and will not be able."

So now, the question becomes: "Will you submit to the Word of God and let it correct your wrong ideas, or will you harden your heart against the Word of God and justify yourself?"

In Christ,
Renoncer

Ok guys- unfair!.

I said I am not allowed to discuss this (per the moderators) but you keep addressing posts to me.

I would be happy to answer but have promised not to do so.

If you have specific question or concerns, email me.

By the way, renoncer, the arrogance of your last statement staggers the mind. I have already stated I am not a proponent of UR.

TMK,
I'm sorry you reacted this way. I wasn't trying to pick a fight, it was simply a statement of fact.

At this point, I would like to direct you to this sermon: http://www.sermonaudio.com/playpopup.asp?SID=75131828360

Even right now, I am convicted by this sermon.

God bless,
Renoncer

Hey Just-in--

I know the mods have not shut down this thread. But they have previously contacted me via email about a year ago not to discuss this topic. And they have shut down previous threads. Only discussion supporting the doctrine of hell as a place of conscious eternal torment is allowed. Of course that is not much of a discussion.

Their position is that the issue of hell as a place of conscious eternal torment is a settled fact and that any suggestion to the contrary is dangerous ground, if not outright heresy. Of course I very strongly disagree with this(even though I, once again, am not a proponent of UR); Hannah Whitehall Smith was a proponent of UR, and she was no heretic. Nor was George MacDonald, or William Law.

I must respect the moderator's decision on this matter; after all it is their forum to police as they see fit.

So, while I would like to discuss this in a civil manner without being branded as a heretic that should be burned at the stake, unfortunately I am unable to do so. But I must say it is somewhat frustrating to be unable to respond to the various points being raised.

I would say one thing to consider- is the overall tenor of scripture one of restoration and reconciliation with Jesus as the cosmic victor(Isa. 42:1-4/Col.2:15/ Heb.2:14/ 1 John 3:8), or is it rather one of defeat and loss with Jesus as the cosmic loser and satan the winner? I don't care what sort of spin people try to put on it-- if 99% or more of the souls that have ever live are consigned to a place of eternal torment, satan has won.

Once again I am able to make this statement without being a proponent of UR. However, it is enough to at least give me pause and make me consider the matter.

TMK said, "or is it rather one of defeat and loss with Jesus as the cosmic loser and satan the winner? I don't care what sort of spin people try to put on it-- if 99% or more of the souls that have ever live are consigned to a place of eternal torment, satan has won."

This comment reveals that you think you are wiser than God (although you probably won't admit it). Beware, lest God should not agree with your wisdom! Who's arrogant, the one who proclaims the Word of God with boldness, or the one who shakes his fist against God with boldness?

If God's plan doesn't fit in your theological framework, you mock God!

No wonder you reacted so strongly against my comment about whether or not we SUBMIT TO THE WORD OF GOD.
No wonder you keep pushing people to dabble into heresy and false teachings.

Sir (assuming you are a man), you must repent. Sadly, you probably are too arrogant to admit your sin and repent. I know your type. The Bible knows your type. In fact, the Scripture says, "As for a person who stirs up division, after warning him once and then twice, have nothing more to do with him, knowing that such a person is warped and sinful; he is self-condemned."
(Titus 3:10-11)

Your twisting of Scripture is very much in line with the Gnostics, the enemies of the Early Church and of the Christian faith.

The moderators should block you from this forum, lest you should ensnare those who are not well grounded in the truth.

In Christ (He who gets glory by saving the elect, and who gets glory by destroying his enemies, though numerous they may be...),
Renoncer

P.S.: See Romans 16:17-18 for my strong stance. In the off change that TMK should repent, I would be glad to welcome him (or her) back.

______________________________________________________________
QUOTE:
"Debating with the Devil

"In a sudden unexpected moment I knew of him, he was at my right hand and his presence was all terrible and menace. I dared not comprehend it. I thought to die as he spoke to me. "Choose" he said. I looked at his offer and saw that it was a simple one. Yet in fear I still could not choose. He is more clever than I and soon understood it. So he came to my left hand also. All at once he was as a different man to me. Fear was gone. So I lifted my eyes, and looked at him straight. I saw that his countenance was as an angel of light. His breath was sweet and his eyes as waters of understanding. So I chose”
______________________________________________________________

Very good description - because this is just the way the devil presents himself, as an angel of light - beautiful! Attractive! One that appeals to our senses!

Many years ago our ladies group studied a book by Rosalind Rinker. I forget the title but it had to do with loving others. It was such a sweet book - I promise! I applied those principles and backed off from absolutes - in my mind. Some years later "Christianity Today" magazine mentioned how she is the darling of the lesbian/homosexual community! (You can find on one of their websites how they promote her lit.) I was appalled! Shocked! But, yes, of course! If you embrace her philosophy of 'loving' you will accommodate perversion, giving them the benefit of the doubt, that under grace God will accommodate them without repentance. God is so wonderfully loving, so warm and fuzzy, does not demand anything!

I got mad, no, angry! I ditched that book, I burned it! I ditched it so bad I can not recall its title!! This experience taught me how sly, deceptive the devil is. Today when I hear people talk about how Christians are not loving I think back to this experience.

Another way the devil is sly is giving visions of life beyond. People see beautiful landscape...but no Jesus. I have heard of visions that were authentic - these people came back with a renewed passion to serve the LORD and warn people of the wrath to come. When this is not the case one will do well to realize this comes from the pit. (And yes, there are people who have been given a glimpse of hell and I am NOT talking about Mary K. Baxter's writings, either.)

We do well to be harmless as doves and wise as serpents.

God bless.