Gradual sanctification not scriptural

Oh friend...good luck with that view it does not mesh with the full counsel of God's word. Every day we strive to walk in the spirit and every day we fail in one way or another. We are changed glory to glory into the image of Christ but it is not about what you do but what He has done. You are going to frustrate yourself either through failure or ignoring where you do fall short and will not be able to look to Christ alone. Daily die, daily week to walk in the fullness which God has for you but i plead with you not to take such a yoke upon your neck. Positionally you are complete in Christ, practically you must die daily and stay attached to the vine that Christ may liv through you. Most I have seen who claim perfection r some version of it fall into the sin of self righteousness becoming hard, cold, judgmental and ineffective in their walk because they can find no good. Lord bless u.

Quote: So if you have deeds of the flesh that you just can't mortify yet because you have not worked enough death into your walk, you are not doing it through the Spirit. Therefore you are not following the Spirit, but the flesh.

Something that has come of a revelation to me in the past week as I have been praying to be planted into Christ death is this.

As you are planted into the death of Christ you are then released into a new life which is the life of Christ. It was this scripture that help me see it.

1 Cor 4:10 Always bearing about in the body the dying of the Lord Jesus, that the life also of Jesus might be made manifest in our body.

So that planting or bearing in the body the dying of Christ as this scripture calls it allows the manifestation of Christ in our bodies. But that is not a Gradual process it happens in a instance and then we walk in it bearing the death of Christ, so that Christ will be seen in our lives.

Quote: Most I have seen who claim perfection r some version of it fall into the sin of self righteousness becoming hard, cold, judgmental and ineffective in their walk because they can find no good.

It a shame that all the denominations that used to hold to this view in word only and try in the flesh to be perfect because we can’t be perfect in our own strength. Take the Salvation army for example they preached instantaneous sanctification and experienced it and stormed the world with the Gospel of Christ. But now they are dead and there gospel in a social gospel, they don’t have the same spirit as there founding members... Booth or Brengle.

Methodism which a third of the people in the UK once practiced and, it spread into the US with the circuit riders crossed the States proclaiming the Gospel with wonderful moves of God breaking out in communities. Dead

You see we call men by their names... Booth, Brengle, and Wesley but in all honesty it wasn’t them they had been planted into Christ death and the life they manifested Christ life and changed nations.

The righteous are said to be scarcely saved, not with respect to the certainty of the event, for the purpose of God in their favor cannot be disappointed—but in respect of their own apprehensions, and the great difficulties they are brought through. But when, after a long experience of their own deceitful hearts, after repeated proofs of their weakness, wilfulness, ingratitude, and insensibility—they find that none of these things can separate them from the love of God in Christ; Jesus becomes more and more precious to their souls. They love much, because much has been forgiven them!

They dare not, they will not ascribe anything to themselves, but are glad to acknowledge, that they must have perished a thousand times over—if Jesus had not been their Savior, their Shepherd, and their Shield! When they were wandering—He brought them back. When they were fallen—He raised them. When they were wounded—He healed them. When they were fainting—He revived them. By him, out of weakness, they have been made strong. He has taught their hands to battle, and covered their heads in the day of battle. In a word, some of the clearest proofs they have had of his excellence—have been occasioned by the mortifying proofs they have had of their own vileness. They would not have known so much of him—if they had not known so much of themselves!

Further, a spirit of humiliation, which is both the strength and beauty of our profession—is greatly promoted by our feeling, as well as reading—that when we would do good—evil is present with us. A broken and contrite spirit is pleasing to the Lord. He has promised to dwell with those who have it; and experience shows, that the exercise of all our graces is in proportion to the humbling sense we have of the depravity of our nature.

Whoever is truly humbled—will not be easily angry, nor harsh or critical of others. He will be compassionate and tender to the infirmities of his fellow-sinners, knowing that if there is a difference—it is grace alone which has made it! He knows that he has the seeds of every evil in his own heart. And under all trials and afflictions—he will look to the hand of the Lord, and lay his mouth in the dust, acknowledging that he suffers much less than his iniquities have deserved.

These are some of the advantages and good fruits which the Lord enables us to obtain from that bitter root—indwelling sin.

-John Newton

You will never do anything. We yield to Christ and let him. Live through us as we stay on the cross.

Gradual sanctification is Biblical. Excusing your sin is not. There is a huge difference. Even Paul said He had not attained to it. Just look at Ephesians 3:

But what things were gain to me, these I have counted loss for Christ. Yet indeed I also count all things loss for the excellence of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord, for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and count them as rubbish, that I may gain Christ and be found in Him, not having my own righteousness, which is from the law, but that which is through faith in Christ, the righteousness which is from God by faith; that I may know Him and the power of His resurrection, and the fellowship of His sufferings, being conformed to His death, if, by any means, I may attain to the resurrection from the dead. Not that I have already attained, or am already perfected; but I press on, that I may lay hold of that for which Christ Jesus has also laid hold of me. Brethren, I do not count myself to have apprehended; but one thing I do, forgetting those things which are behind and reaching forward to those things which are ahead, I press toward the goal for the prize of the upward call of God in Christ Jesus. Therefore let us, as many as are mature, have this mind; and if in anything you think otherwise, God will reveal even this to you. Nevertheless, to the degree that we have already attained, let us walk by the same rule, let us be of the same mind.

Sanctification is gradual, in reality. If it was for the Apostle Paul, it is true for us.

Now, about Romans 8. The context of those verses is clear. This is the difference between those who are living according to the Spirit (grace) and those who are living according to the flesh (law). All the verses leading up to chapter 8 are not a treatise on sanctification. They are talking about salvation and the difference between living by the law and the Spirit.

Hi krautfrau

krautfrau wrote : ///It's principle based sanctification based on philosophy and oriental mysticism, which is why Watchman Nee was better at explaining it than all the other writers. ///

I am confused by this statement, is it implying that Watchman Nee advocated principle based sanctification or was opposed to principle based sanctification ?

I have noticed a problem for sometime with the modern gospel.

We should be able, by being filled with the Spirit, go into the streets and give the Gospel, a Gospel with such Power that it instantly delivers the Drunk from the power of his alcohol addiction, the homosexual or porno addict from the power of their sexual addiction, the theif from his covetesness and so on.

But we are not seeing much of this today. instead we are seeing churches sponsering AA meetings and various 7 step programs and etc. such ways of overcoming addictions will work with any religion.

Krautfrau,

I can definitely see that you disagree with what I believe the scripture says. However, your interpretation (or the author of it) of both Romans 8 and Philippians 3 seems to be molded by your theological framework. We are called to not read into the scriptures what we already believe, but to let the scripture tell us what it means.

Ideally, I believe the scripture admonishes us to abstain from sin--totally severing the ties to it that we may be gloriously shown to be children of God through our obedience and pursuit of holiness. However, the reality is that this is not something we do ourselves. It is a work of God. And yes, if we totally died to self and allowed the Spirit to reign, we would act as we ought. But Romans 7, Philippians 3, and many other verses attest to the reality that we have yet to arrive.

Think about it. What if the Bible said things like "No one is perfect" or "Although we should strive for perfection, no one will attain it." Then you would end up with all these people who use the grace of God as permission for sin. Our faults are always presented through 2 lenses, when dealing with sin the the life of the believer: 1) We are redeemed and covered by the blood of Jesus Christ because He served as our propitiation. 2) That we must seek to abandon sin in pursuit of Holiness, a work that is wrought by the power of God.

There is no excuse for sin, because God has given us everything for life and godliness. So we must pursue it. But I am not going to EVER say in this life that I have attained to perfection, just as paul never said it. Just as none of the other apostles ever said it. How could I be so arrogant as ever to say that I have attained to a state of perfection? Even if I never sin again and follow the will of God perfectly, allowing the Holy Spirit to exercise complete control of me, may God forbid that I should glory in anything except the cross of the Lord Jesus Christ by whom the world was crucified to me and I to the world!

Paul, therefore, is not speaking here of any deficiency in his own grace, or spiritual state; he does not mean by not being yet perfect, that he had a body of sin and death cleaving to him, and was still polluted with indwelling sin, as some have most falsely and dangerously imagined; he speaks of his not having terminated his course by martyrdom, which he knew would sooner or later be the case. This he considered as the perfection, of his whole career, and was led to view every thing as imperfect or unfinished till this had taken place.

If Paul wrote to Philippians that 'Don't think I have already been martyred I have not', everyone will laugh at him. Why? because the very fact that he is writing a letter proves that he is still alive. There is no need for Paul to explain them that he has not been glorified yet, the fact that he is being persecuted shows that he is not saved from the presence of Sin. I am sorry your explanation is total flawed. Why can't people read scripture as it is, without being influenced by Theology? If you have read like that you will know that Paul is talking about.

Philippians 3-12 is continuation of verse 7 where Paul is talking about knowing Jesus and fellowshipping with him. He has not completely known him yet, he is not completely united with him in death, which is to be dead to the desires of Flesh. This is same spirit with which he wrote 1 Corinthians 13-9.

For we know in part and we prophesy in part, but when completeness comes, what is in part disappears. When I was a child, I talked like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child. When I became a man, I put the ways of childhood behind me. For now we see only a reflection as in a mirror; then we shall see face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I am fully known.

So Paul is getting the revelation of Jesus in parts. He has not known him fully. Based on what he know about Jesus he is confirmed to his image. But that does not mean Paul has become completely like Christ.

All religions mortify deeds of the flesh, but only one does it through the Spirit. Any religion that does it through a long process of death to the soul, through self discipline against and denial of the desires of the flesh and soul, is of the flesh not the Spirit.

Sanctification is progressive. Every growth in nature that God has created is gradual. There is no animal or plan that is born grown. This is the way God has designed it. This is the way nature sustains. Deuteronomy 7-22 talks about how God will deliver the heathen nations to Israel - 'The Lord your God will drive out those nations before you, little by little. You will not be allowed to eliminate them all at once, or the wild animals will multiply around you'. In spiritual terms it is progressive deliverance from Sin, else the beasts (Pride) will multiply inside us and will consume us.

The difference between Christianity where you are gradually transformed into the image of Christ and Buddhism where you move from one stage to another to become that supreme human being is, who is doing the work. Christianity the spirit inside us is doing the work and we are just working out by being obedient to the spirit. But in other religions it is a good show in flesh and flesh is working. For example there is a brother who came from Hindu faith, he confessed that he overcame anger by Yoga when he was Hindu. Nothing could cause him exhibit anger but he could never overcome anger and hatred in heart. Other religions can only create whitewashed tombs. The inner life will be dead in them.

A fake $100 bill will look similar to a original $100 bill. No one will change the original because there are fake bills that look like them. But the difference is the value inside the original $100 bill. Same way the difference in Christianity is the value of Holy Spirit inside us. Christ in you is the hope of your glory.

Brother,

Paul was not writing about perfection in 1 Thess. He was writing about how he was not taking advantage of them in his ministry, as he often had to do to separate himself from those false men who ministered for sordid gain. It was, again, not a treatise on perfection. Paul was merely making a case to the Thessalonians that he had, indeed, NOT taken advantage of them.

Let me share this saying which I have made a point to try to live by when reading the Word:

"A text without context is a pretext for a proof text."

As believers, we have got to stop quoting verses that support our positions when the context surrounding those verses have NOTHING to do with those doctrines. Even some very sound, very Biblical doctrines have verses that have been associated with them that truly have nothing to do with those doctrines.

More than that though, we as believers have GOT to start drawing meanings out of the texts instead of reading our beliefs into the texts. We all have a tendency to do it. Stop it.

Let me make sure I understand what you are saying Krautfrau. Are you saying that upon the conversion of an unbeliever, that sin completely ceases?

Brother,

Biblical conversion and its instantaniety is not something that can be debated. We are talking about passing from death to life (John 5:24 makes it clear it is instant). God taking our hearts of stone and making them hearts of flesh. We are talking about receiving the Spirit as a seal and guarantee of our salvation. The very nature of the way in which conversion is spoken testifies to this instant quality.

More than that, the line of thinking that conversion does not happen apart from instant sanctification testifies against the very Gospel it claims to support. I have met a few men who believe on this line. Their version of the Gospel is merely on the conservative end of man-centeredness. This ain't about you, brother. This is about Jesus Christ and His glory. If your sanctification depended on you, then you would have something to boast about. But Again, God forbid that I should glory in anything except the cross of Jesus Christ. What we do in this flesh counts for nothing in attaining salvation. Being a new creation is everything. And that doesn't happen in a process. Works are important after salvation, not for its maintenance, but for the love of our Savior and a pursuit of holiness and our testimony to mankind. I have said my peace about this.

Edit: Clarification of 'this.'

As I am researching through the Scriptures on the topic of sanctification, it appears that sanctification is a reality for the believer,(believers are sanctified)

It appears that the fruits of this reality are produced when the believer embraces that reality.

It does not seem to be so much about dieing to self, but instead reckoning our self dead to sin and alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.

Yes I agree that there is a process leading up to rebirth or baptism in the Spirit. The rebirth though is an end to sinning. Then afterwards there is growth but it is not a growth towards holiness, it is growth in grace. Those ho have not experienced the power of the Holy Spirit over their old nature, to put the old nature to death have not yet arrived at the new birth.

Now I understand the difference between both of us. I think the difference is in understanding the term sanctification. For me to say that I am completely sanctified is to say that I am totally free from sin. For you sanctification is positional and a realization of the work done by Christ.

Having experienced the baptism of Holy Spirit, I have to confess that I am not yet sin free. I have not been entirely sanctified yet based on my definition of sanctification (which I believe is scriptural). But what this Baptism has done is it has given me power to overcome. I can either use this power and be an overcomer in my everyday temptation or I can live according to the flesh. To even sustain this power I need to seek to be filled by his Spirit everyday. It is like a vessel, you call a vessel filled only when it is completely filled. It will remain filled only when there is a continuous inflow. Same way there should be a continuous inflow of Holy Spirit in our life. This is what Paul mentions growing in Grace.

There are still so many unconscious sins in my life and God is faithful in showing them. As he shows them I confess them, repent and then use his Power to overcome. This is spiritual growth. I become more and more Christlike if I am in this path of Growth.

According to your definition, my experience is unbiblical because it is against your theology. But It is Biblical. This is what Paul is talking in Philippians 3-13. Paul is not struggling with Known sins like adultery. If he was then he will not call the Church to follow him as he follows Christ. He was talking about the unconscious sins that are still left in him. Until God shows them he will never become perfect. For Peter the sin of Hippocracy in front of Jews was an unconscious sin. He got carried away by their presence seeking to Honor the opinion of Men. But when Paul rebuked Peter and shed light on this sin. He immediately repented and set his path right.

If you are calling my experience as unscriptural then you need to give a satisfactory explanation to Phillipians 3-13. Based on your explanation of this scripture it appears that you have to twist the word to derive a meaning that will not affect your theology. You should also explain a number of scriptures like - Phillipians 2-12.

So then, my beloved, just as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your salvation with fear and trembling; 13 for it is God who is at work in you, both to will and to work for His good pleasure.

What is the work that God is doing inside us if the work is already completed? If sanctification is already complete we just need to embrace it then there is no need for God to work inside us. But there is a work and we need to workout with him. This work is confirming believers to the image of Christ and bringing them from Glory to Glory.

There are people who believe in partial truth, there is nothing wrong in that as they are ignorant to the complete truth. But to call the complete truth unscriptural is not acceptable to any standard. It is Blasphemy.

I will stop posting in this thread further as I have expressed the truth both by my personal testimony and scripture.

Quote by Sree: According to your definition, my experience is unbiblical because it is against your theology. But It is Biblical. This is what Paul is talking in Philippians 3-13. Paul is not struggling with Known sins like adultery. If he was then he will not call the Church to follow him as he follows Christ. He was talking about the unconscious sins that are still left in him.

I can’t agree that we can be partially sanctified; you are either sanctified or unsanctified. Just like when were justified we were unjustified then by a simple step of faith we became justified and then we grew in that grace we received.

Now let’s examine the verse to try and get a understanding what Paul is on about. Paul to me is writing about the High calling of God in Christ, he is not talking about sanctification but rather glorification which he had not attained.

Phil 3: 13-14 Brethren, I count not myself to have apprehended: but this one thing I do, forgetting those things which are behind, and reaching forth unto those things which are before, I press toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus.

Paul is not talking about unconscious sins but rather the body which is not yet glorified, thats what I you could call perfect holiness, and we will never be perfectly holy until we have attained the high calling of God in Christ Jesus.

But what holiness is available on this earth? What should sanctification look like while we remain on earth in our un-glorified bodies? What is the high calling of God in Christ Jesus.

Revelation 3:4 Thou hast a few names even in Sardis which have not defiled their garments; and they shall walk with me in white: for they are worthy.

Thou hast a few names even in Sardis which have not defiled their garments they are worthy; this is what’s available on earth for us to be able walk on this earth undefiled. Being undefiled speaks of purity, it speaks of Holiness. They were overcomers the have believed the Gospel message and walked in its fullness while on earth. But I also see that we can fall, we can slip, we can become undefiled, so I am not promoting sinless perfection however this verse does speak about sinlessness.

Revelation 3:5 He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.

He that overcometh this gets me thinking about Hebrews 4:11 Let us labour therefore to enter into that rest, lest any man fall after the same example of unbelief. The victory that overcomes the world is our faith it’s our faith that allow us to overcome and enter his rest, it is in that rest that we stop from our own works. Heb 4:10. What are our own works could they be the works of the flesh? I don’t know yet, but I assume it to be so as the works of the flesh would have a very defiling influence on us. Stopping from ours works being led by the Holy Spirit being a Son of God these are the things I am thinking about.

Oh the reward to the overcomers to be clothed in white and to walk with Christ, can you imagine the joy, the gladness, how bright we would be with rejoicing, the peace of conscience and joy in the Lord? Standing in front of the Father and Christ confesses your name to him… Now that’s the High calling of God in Christ.