THE SECOND BLESSING IN EXPERIENCE, IN THEOLOGY, AND IN THE BIBLE

THE SECOND BLESSING IN EXPERIENCE, IN THEOLOGY, AND IN THE BIBLE

1 Thess. V. 23: "And the God of peace himself sanctify you wholly."

I. Experience.

George Fox was born in 1624. He was one of the first of the modern apostles of holiness, and founder of the Society of Friends. Here is his luminous testimony concerning his own inner life. "I knew Jesus, and He was very precious to my soul; but I found something within me that would not keep sweet and patient and kind. I did what I could to keep it down, but it was there. I besought Jesus to do something for me, and when I gave Him my will, He came to my heart and took out all that would not be patient, all that would not be kind, and -- then He shut the door."

Could a second work of grace be stated more beautifully or definitely?

Dr. A. J. Gordon, of Boston, wrote: "It seems clear that it is still the duty and privilege of believers to receive the Holy Spirit by a conscious, definite act of appropriating faith, just as they received Jesus Christ ... It is as sinners that we accept Christ for our justification; but it is as sons that we accept the Spirit for our sanctification. The Scriptures show that we are required to appropriate the Spirit as sons, in the same way that we appropriated Christ as sinners."

Dr. Gordon did it, and the blessing made him in many respects the most potent Baptist pastor in New England. He wrote his beautiful book, "Ministry of the Spirit," to lead others into the same experience.

Rev. J. O. Peck, D. D., one of the greatest pastors Methodism has produced in America, wrote: "God never left me a single year without a gracious revival, in which many souls were given as the seals of my ministry. Never had my pastorate been more favored with the Divine blessing that at Springfield; but in the summer of 1872 a deep heart hunger that I had never known before began to be realized. I had not lost spirituality; I longed for; I scarcely knew what. I examined myself and prayed more earnestly, but the hunger of my soul grew more imperious. The result was a consciousness of utter emptiness. Then arose an unutterable longing to be filled. I was prejudiced against the National Camp-meeting Association, but a conviction was borne in on me, that if I would go to that meeting and confess how I was hungering, I would be filled with the Spirit. I went, frankly told my errand, sought the prayers of all, descended to the altar and knelt before the Lord. By simple faith I was enabled to take Christ as my sufficiency, to fill and satisfy my hungry soul. The instant I received Christ as my wisdom, righteousness and sanctification, the stillness and emotionlessness of absolute quiet permeated my whole being. The tempter suggested, the Spirit is withdrawn. As quick as thought I replied: with or without feeling I here and now take Christ as my all in all. At once came the peace of God that passeth understanding, till I seemed filled with all the fullness of God."

Now here is the testimony of the immortal Quaker, and of a modern Baptist and a Methodist divine (all saints of God) to a second work of grace and a second blessing experience. Similar testimony could be obtained from ten thousand other souls. There is, then, a second blessing or a second work of grace in Christian experience.

II. Now, is there such a blessing taught in theology? Let us see if we can get any witness from the accredited leaders and teachers of any denomination.

The bishops of the M. E. Church South in their address to the General Conference in 1894, said: "The privilege of believers to attain unto a state of entire sanctification, or perfect love, and to abide therein, is a well-known teaching of Methodism. Witnesses to this experience have never been wanting in the Church, though few in comparison with the whole membership. Among them have been men and women of beautiful consistency and seraphic ardor, jewels of the Church. Let the doctrine still be proclaimed and the experience still be testified."

In 1884, the Centennial Conference of American Methodism, which met in Baltimore, re-affirmed the faith of the entire Church in all its separate branches: "We remind you, brethren, that the mission of Methodism is to promote holiness. It is not a sentiment or emotion, but a principle inwrought in the heart, the culmination of God's work in us, followed by a consecrated life. In all the borders of Methodism this doctrine is preached and the experience of sanctification is urged. We beseech you, brethren, stand by your standards on this subject."

Still earlier Bishop Matthew Simpson said: "Sanctification is not regeneration. Methodism differs from Moravianism, in that it does not hold regeneration and entire sanctification to be identical. Sanctification is that act of the Holy Ghost whereby a justified man is made holy." Here, then, is a distinct announcement of sanctification as a second work or grace by the most eloquent bishop the Methodist Church ever produced; made more than thirty years ago.

In 1874 the bishops of the M. E. Church South thus concluded their address to the General Conference: "Extensive revivals of religion have crowned the labor of our preachers, and the life-giving energy of the Gospel in the conversion of sinners and the sanctification of believers has seldom been more apparent among us. The boon of Wesleyan Methodism, as we received it from our fathers, has not been forfeited in our hands!"

This was signed by Bishops Paine, Price, Kavanaugh, Wightman, Marvin, Doggett, McTyeire and Keener.

In 1836, in New York City, Dr. John McClintock, President of Drew Theological Seminary, in the closing words of his centenary sermon, said: "Knowing exactly what I say, and taking the full responsibility of it, I repeat, we are the only Church in history, from the apostles' time till now, that has put forth, as the very elemental thought, the great pervading idea of the whole book of God, from the beginning to the end, the holiness of the human soul, heart and will. It may be called fanaticism, but, dear friends, this is our mission. If we keep to that, the triumphs of the next century will throw those of the past into the shade. There is our mission; there is our glory; there is our power; and there shall be the ground of our triumph! God keep us true!"

Bishop Elijah Hedding, who died in 1852, said in a conference sermon: "It is as important that you (the ministers of the New Jersey Conference) should experience this holy work of sanctification, as it is that the sinners to whom you preach should be converted."

In 1832 the General Conference issued a pastoral address to the Church, in which is the following:

"When we speak of holiness we mean the state in which God is loved with all the heart and served with all the power. This, as Methodists, we have said, is the privilege of the Christian in this life. And we have further said that this privilege may be instantaneously received by an act of faith, as is justification."

In 1824 the bishops, in their conference address, said: "If Methodists give up the doctrine of entire sanctification or suffer it to become a dead letter, we are a fallen people. Holiness is the main cord that binds us together; relax this and you loosen the whole system. This will appear more evident if we recall to mind the original design of Methodism. It was to raise up and preserve a holy people. This was the principal object which Mr. Wesley had in view. To this end all the doctrines believed and preached by the Methodists tend."

This remarkable deliverance was signed by Bishop McKendree, Bedding, Soule, George and Roberts.

Bishop Asbury wrote thus from a bed of sickness: "I have found by secret search that I have not preached sanctification as I should have done. If I am restored this shall be my theme, more pointedly than ever, God being my helper."

At another time he wrote: "Bless the Lord, O ye saints! Holiness is the element of my soul. My earnest prayer is that nothing contrary to holiness may live in me." He wrote to a minister: "O purity! O Christian perfection! O sanctification! It is Heaven below to feel all sin removed. Preach it, whether they will hear or forbear. Preach it!"

Dr. Adam Clarke was born in 1762; a man of rare scholarship, a delight to John Wesley, and one of the best preachers of the realm. He afterward became a prince among commentators of the Bible. He said: "if the Methodists give up preaching entire sanctification, they will soon lose their glory. Let all those who retain the apostolic doctrine -- that the blood of Christ cleanseth from all sin in this life -- pray every believer to go on to perfection, and expect to be saved while here below, unto fullness of the blessing of the Gospel of Christ."

What could be a plainer statement of a second work of grace?

John Fletcher, pronounced by John Wesley to be the most apostolic man he had ever met, died in 1785. He obtained the blessing of sanctification after conversion, and lost it several times by not confessing it. He finally learned to keep it, and confessed: "I now declare unto you, in the presence of God, the Holy Trinity, that I am now dead indeed unto sin and alive unto God, through Jesus Christ, who is my indwelling holiness, my all in all."

John Wesley, in 1771, wrote: "Many years since, I saw that without holiness no man shall see the Lord. I began by following after it. Ten years after God gave me a clearer view than I had before how to obtain it; namely, by faith in the Son of God; and immediately I declared to all: We are saved from Sin, WE ARE MADE HOLY BY FAITH. This I testified in private, in public, in print, and God confirmed it by a thousand witnesses."

Wesley exhorted his ministers (according to Tyerman, Vol. 2, p. 565) as follows: "As soon as any penitents find peace, exhort them to go on to perfection." Preach full salvation now receivable by faith." "This is the word which the devil peculiarly hates and stirs up his children against, but it is the word which God will always bless." "Do not neglect to strongly and explicitly urge believers to go on to perfection." "Preach full sanctification, preach it definitely, preach it explicitly, preach it strongly, preach it frequently, preach it constantly, preach it wherever you have an opportunity. Insist on it everywhere. All our preachers should make a point of preaching it constantly, strongly, explicitly. Explicitly assert and prove that it may be received by simple faith. If others grow weary and say little about it, do you supply their lack of service. Speak and spare not. Let not regard for any man induce you to betray the truth of God."

In the Conference of 1765, Mr. Wesley was asked the question: "What was the rise of Methodism?" Ans. "In 1729 my brother Charles and I, reading the Bible, seeing we could not be saved without holiness, followed after it and incited others to do so. In 1737 we saw that this holiness comes by faith. In 1738 we saw likewise that men are justified before they are sanctified; but still holiness was our object, inward and outward holiness: God then thrust us out to raise up a holy people."

But some modern holiness-fighting Methodists tell us that during the latter years of his life, Wesley "quietly let drop all insistence upon instantaneous sanctification." This quotation is from a book whose author is a great denominational leader. It is absolutely untrue, as the following quotations from Wesley will show. Six years before his death (1785) he wrote to Rev. Freeborn Garretson: "It will be well, as soon as any of them find peace with God, to exhort them to go on to perfection. The more explicitly and strongly you press all believers to aspire after entire sanctification as attainable now by simple faith, the more the whole work of God will prosper."

To Rev. John Ogilvie, 1785: "God will prosper you in your labors: especially if you constantly and strongly exhort all believers to expect full sanctification now by simple faith."

Sept. 15, 1790, 5 months and 17 days before death, he wrote Robert Carr Brackenburg, Esq.: "I am glad brother D_____ has more light with regard to full sanctification. This doctrine is the grand depositum which God has lodged with the people called Methodists; and for the sake of propagating this, he chiefly appears to have raised us up."

Nov. 26, 1790, 3 months and 6 days before his death, he wrote to Adam Clark: "To retain the grace of God is much more than to gain it. Hardly one in three does this. And this should be strongly and explicitly urged on all who have tasted of perfect love. If we can prove that any one of our local preachers or leaders, either directly or indirectly speaks against it, let him be a local preacher or leader no longer. I doubt whether he should continue in the society; because he that could speak thus in our congregations cannot be an honest man."

Wesley wrote to Rev. John Booth, thirty-one days before his death: "Whenever you have opportunity of speaking to believers, urge them to go on to perfection. Spare no pains, and God, even our God, will give you His blessing."

On Feb. 27, 1791, four days before his death, he said: "We must be justified by faith and then go on to full sanctification."

Wesley's loyalty to Sanctification was his ruling passion in old age and in death.

Now look at the Catechisms and Discipline. The Catechisim of the M. E. Church South: Question 60. "What is entire sanctification? Ans. Entire sanctification or Christian perfection, is that state in which, his heart being cleansed from all sin, perfected in all righteousness, and entirely devoted to God, the believer loves God with all his heart, mind and strength, and his neighbor as himself."

Question 61. "Can a believer be entirely sanctified in this life? Ans. The believer can and should be entirely sanctified in this life."

The M. E. Church's larger Catechism has this: Question 294: "What is sanctification? Ans. Sanctification is that act of divine grace whereby we are made holy." Question 295. "Can and ought a child of God to be cleansed from all sin in this life? Ans. Yes; the divine command is, 'Be ye holy, for I am holy,' with the promise that if we confess our sins he will cleanse us from all unrighteousness."

That this second work of grace is the teaching of the Catechism of the M. E. Church, no intelligent and honest Methodist can deny.

And Methodist hymns teach the same. "Now, O my Joshua, bring me in! Cast out thy foe, the Inbred sin. The carnal mind remove: The purchase of thy death divide, And Oh, with all the sanctified, Give me a heart of love."

Here is another hymn: "Breathe, O breathe Thy loving Spirit Into every troubled breast; Let us all in Thee inherit Let us find that second rest. Take away our bent to sinning, Alpha and Omega be. End of faith, as its beginning, Set our hearts at liberty."

Here is another that teaches the doctrine of sanctification as a second work of grace as plainly as language could do it: "Speak the second time be clean, Take away my inbred sin; Every stumbling-block remove, Cast it out by Perfect love."

In an unabridged Methodist hymnal there are over fifty such hymns.

And what is more, here is the ministerial vow, copied from the M. E. Discipline of the year 1900, Par. 151:

"1. Have you faith in Christ?

"2. Are you going on to perfection?

"3. Do you expect to be made perfect in this life!

"4. Are you earnestly striving after it?"

Every Methodist minister must answer these questions in the affirmative in order to enter the ministry. It is a vow that has irrevocably committed every one of them to advocate sanctification as a second work of grace subsequent to regeneration. I once heard the statement made in a public address that a Methodist minister who fights holiness as a second work of grace stands perjured before three worlds.

We have thus far proved that the second blessing of sanctification is a matter of experience; and is taught, at least in Methodist theology. But some of us are not Methodists. We are anxious to know whether the second blessing is taught in the Bible. If so, that settles it. Let us, then, consider:

III. The second blessing in the Scripture. There are about one hundred passages in the New Testament that teach it most distinctly. But we will confine ourselves to Paul's First Epistle to the Thessalonians.

1. Notice what kind of people they were to whom he wrote. That they were noble Christians is clear from the first chapter, for:

(1) They were members of "the church of the Thessalonians in God the Father and in the Lord Jesus Christ." People did not join the church in those days for business or social advancement. It often cost them their lives. The church was not filled with hypocrites or worldlings, but with sincere and devout Christians, and to such the apostle was writing. (Chap. i., vs. 1.)

(2) Paul gave "thanks to God always for them all." He was not thanking God for heathen, but for followers of Jesus. (vs. 2.)

(3) "Remembering without ceasing your work of faith, and labor of love, and patience of hope in our Lord Jesus Christ. (vs. 3.) They had the three Christian graces -- faith, hope and love; and derived them from their union with Christ.

(4) In the fourth verse he called them "brethren beloved." Paul never used that term of any but Christians.

(5) He declares that he knew their "election." (vs. 4.) This he could not have known of sinners.

(6) The next verse declares that the Gospel came to them in "much assurance." They did not have "a guess-so," but a "know-so" salvation. This is more than a good many church members have today.

(7) "They became imitators of the apostle and of Christ." In all my travels over the world I have never met any sinners who picked out the best Christians and Jesus to imitate; so I conclude they were genuine followers of the Lord.

(8) "They were examples to all that believe in Macedonia." (vs. 7) This is no description of unbelievers.

(9) "For from you hath sounded forth the word of the Lord," through all Achaia, and every place. They must have been, then, a most earnest and aggressive body of believers.

(10) They had "joy of the Holy Spirit." (vs. 6.) No sinner ever had that, or ever will.

(11) They had "turned unto God from idols to serve a living and true God." (vs. 9) Oh, what grand churches we should have today, if all the members would abandon their idols -- tobacco, lodges, cards, theatres, dancing, avarice, selfishness and unhallowed lusts, and serve the living God with all their heart. But that is the very kind of Christians these Thessalonians were.

(12) "They were waiting for Jesus from heaven." (vs. 10.) No sinners want to see Jesus come; that is the last thing any of them desire.

Such were these Thessalonians to whom Paul wrote. Who will dare to say that, measured by any Gospel standard, they were not Christians of an exalted type of piety, and a deep experience of grace?

2. Notice now what Paul wrote to them.

(1) In the second chapter and tenth verse he claimed for himself an experience beyond justification: "Ye are witnesses and God also how holily and righteously and unblamably we behaved ourselves toward you that believe." That is Christian perfection.

(2) From the sixth verse to the ninth verse of the third chapter he rejoiceth that the members of that Thessalonian church had not backslidden but were still his joy and comfort. Yet in the tenth verse he declares that he is "praying night and day exceedingly that he may see their face and perfect that which was lacking in their faith." It is not difficult to see to what he was referring. They had exercised faith for justification, but not for sanctification: for, he says in the thirteenth verse. "To the end he may establish your hearts unblamable in holiness." In other words, he longed to see them that he might lead them into the experience of sanctification, or holiness.

(3) This is still more apparent from what follows. Only three verses later (chap. iv., vs. 3) he writes: "For this is the will of God, even your sanctification. That each one of you may know how to possess himself of his own vessel in sanctification." (vs. 4.) "For God called us not for uncleanness, but in sanctification." (vs. 7.)

Notice how this is all connected together as a logical and rhetorical whole. "I desire to see you and perfect your faith, to the end ye may be unblamable in holiness: FOR this is the will of God even your sanctification: FOR God hath called us unto sanctification." This is so interlocked and dove-tailed and glued together that it cannot be pulled apart, or wrenched from its meaning.

(4) In the fifth chapter and nineteenth verse we read, "Quench not the Spirit. What has that to do with this subject? Everything. It is the Spirit who sanctifies, as the Word four times declares. Our hearts are cleansed through the baptism with the Holy Ghost. Therefore he that quenches the Spirit defeats the will of God and prevents his work of grace in the soul.

(5) He says (chap. 5, vs. 22), "Abstain from every form of evil." And what bearing has this upon the subject? Very, very much. Only those get sanctified who abstain from evil and are walking in the light. Start a holiness meeting in any community: it will be the very best Christians who will be the first at the altar to seek holiness. Why? Because they are prayerfully walking with God, and welcome all the light He sends to their hearts. The command is, "Quench not the Spirit and abstain from all evil," and then the prayer. (verse 23.)

(6) "And the God of peace himself sanctify you wholly, and may your spirit and soul and body be preserved entire without blame." How much there is in that wonderful prayer for believers!

(a) You can not get sanctification by your own growth or development or by any human doings or deservings. The "God of peace himself" does the sanctifying, and brings the "peace of God that passeth understanding" to the heart.

(b) The verb "sanctify" is in the aorist tense and signifies an instantaneous, completed action. God sanctifies by one of His own almighty acts in a moment of time.

(c) He does it "completely;" holoteleis, as the Greek word is, meaning the whole, to the end of all necessity of our being. The German Bible translates it, "through and through."

(d) The apostle enlarges upon the completeness of it by saying, "May your spirit and soul and body be preserved in this sanctification." The Greek word for "body" means our physical being. The word translated "soul," means the principle of life, and such faculties as we share with lower animals. The word translated "Spirit" means that higher spiritual faculty by which we perceive duty and obligation; by which we know God and our accountability to Him; the faculty which makes us companions and fellows with angels in the spirit-realm. These three compose the whole of our being. From the crown of our head to the sole of our feet there is nothing more of us but our clothes.

So completely may God's grace sanctify and keep us all!

What a wonderful salvation it is! Carnality slain! The old man crucified! His vile affections and lusts all gone! The body having only normal appetites and passions!

The soul having clean thoughts and holy desires! The spirit seeing God and rejoicing in His companionship and presence and love. This is salvation; this is life; the foretaste and beginning of life eternal.

Then, following this wonderful prayer, is a promise; (vs. 24) "Faithful is he that calleth you, who also will do it." Calleth to what? In the previous chapter, (4: vs. 7), he has said that God calls us to sanctification. Here he says: "Faithful is he that calleth you, who also will do it." Do what? Why, SANCTIFY US. That is what he is writing about, and exhorting to, and praying for. Nothing can be more evident.

A man said, "It took two to sanctify me." "Who were they?" was asked. "Why, it took me and God." "What did God do?" "He sanctified me." "What did you do?" "I let him." That is the truth.

It is God's will that we be sanctified. He calls us to the experience. He will do it for us if we will let Him. If we will consent to obey God absolutely, to do and say and be what God wants of us; if we will put our all on God's altar, our good things, our soul, body and spirit, mind, heart, will, possessions, influence, reputation, time, talents, -- all, all to be forever the Lord's; if we will consent to walk with Jesus and bear the reproach of holiness in a godless, Christ-hating world, and look up in faith and prayer that will take no denial and claim the blessing by faith, the Holy Spirit will be poured out. The blessing will come; it will not tarry. The willing God will not disappoint his waiting and expectant child.

We have now found that this second blessing of sanctification is not a theory, but a matter of experience and of theology, and that it is unmistakably taught in the Scripture.

Many tell us that no man can be saved from sin in this life. Will these persons permit us to ask, how much sin may we be saved from in this life?

Something must be ascertained on this subject:

1. That the soul may have some determinate object in view;
2. That it may not lose its time, or employ its faith and energy, in praying for what is impossible to be attained.

Now, as He was manifested to take away our sins, 1 Jn.3:5, to destroy the works of the devil, 1 Jn. 3:8; and as His blood cleanseth from all sin and unrighteousness, 1 Jn. 1:7, 9; is it not evident that God means that believers in Christ shall be saved from all sin? For if His blood cleanses from all sin, if He destroys the works of the devil (and sin is the work of the devil), and if he who is born of God does not commit sin, 1 Jn. 3:9, then he must be cleansed from all sin.

And, while he continues in that state he lives without sinning against God, for the seed of God remaineth in him, and he cannot sin because he is born, or begotten, of God, 1 Jn. 3:9.

How strangely warped and blinded by prejudice and system must men be who, in the face of such evidence as this, will still dare to maintain that no man can be saved from his sin in this life, but must daily commit sin, in thought, word, and deed, as the Westminster divines have asserted. That is, every man is laid under the fatal necessity of sinning as many ways against God as the devil does through his natural wickedness and malice; for even the devil himself can have no other way of sinning against God except by thought, word, and deed.

And yet, according to these, and others of the same creed, “even the most regenerate sin thus against God as long as they live.” It is a miserable salvo to say, they do not sin so much as they used to do, and they do not sin habitually, only occasionally.

Alas for this system! Could not the grace that saved them partially save them perfectly? Could not that power of God that saved them from habitual sin, save them from occasional or accidental sin? Shall we suppose that sin, how potent soever it may be, is as potent as the Spirit and grace of Christ? And may we not ask, If it was for God’s glory and their good that they were partially saved, would it not have been more for God’s glory and their good if they had been perfectly saved? But the letter and spirit of God’s word, and the design and end of Christ’s coming, is to save his people from their sins.

Dr. Macknight having stated that the Greek word for purifieth (1 Jn. 3:3), is in the present tense, most ridiculously draws this conclusion from it:

“In this life no one can attain to perfect purity. By this text, therefore, as well as by 1 Jn. 1:8, those fanatics are condemned who imagine they are able to live without sin.”

Yes, doctor, the men you call fanatics do most religiously believe that, by the grace of Christ cleansing and strengthening them, they can live without grieving the Spirit of God, and without sinning against their heavenly Father. And they believe that, if they are not thus saved, it is their own fault.

But a blind man must ever be a bad judge of colors.

Sanctification is both instantaneous and complete and yet progressive as long as we live in these unglorified bodies.

Our spirits were completely made holy and righteous by the redemptive vicarious work of Jesus Christ on the Cross. Because we are now in Christ, our position and standing before God is the same as Jesus himself. This is a gift from God and even the faith needed to appropriate this is a gift from God so that no man can boast in or of himself.

Our state (our actual practice, behavior, conduct, speech, etc.) is another matter. We are being conformed and transformed into the image of Christ from glory to glory as we behold Him. This suggests a moment by moment PROCESS. We learn how to walk in the Spirit by depending on and being led by Him and placing no confidence in ourselves. This never becomes an automatic thing as we still have flesh to contend with. Paul says that there dwells no good thing in his flesh. Seasoned Bible students know that in many instances Paul's use of the word "flesh" means more than simply the physical body. This is just such an instance. It includes the body but deals with our minds and wills being influenced and led by desires of the body and the self.

So our spirit (the real you) is completely holy and sanctified and dead to sin. Our minds are being renewed. And our "flesh" is at enmity with God till Jesus comes and we get our glorified bodies.

As Christians, Christ has given us liberation from the tyranny and dominion of sin. Our experiencing that liberation is a moment by moment affair that requires abiding in Christ, walking in the Spirit, and of course not quenching the Spirit. We don't get proficient in these disciplines over-night. We have to appropriate all that is ours in Christ by faith and yielding (obeying) the Spirit. It is more about trusting than trying (in your own resources). Holiness comes from living from you Spirit-indwelt and led human spirit.

Sin in Greek means "to miss the mark". Regardless of whether or not you are trying to 'hit the mark.' Living in debauchery or rebellion we know is sin. But who can perfectly and at all times keep the great commandment, 'You shall love the Lord you God with all your heart and all your soul and all your mind.'? Even if you try really hard in your own resolve and willpower you will fall short. So this idea that if you don't believe in sinless perfection you must be promoting the notion of "necessity of sin" is complete nonsense. Larry Byrd was probably the best basketball free-thrower ever. One time he made about 100 free throws consecutively and they all went in. When he missed that next free throw it wasn't because of necessity. It was because of a weakness or inability in him and he was trying. This corresponds in the Christian experience to not walking in the Spirit. Paul would not command us to walk and be filled with the Spirit if it was something that could be obtained once and for all by the Baptism of the Spirit, second blessing.

Yes, if we were Holy Spirit controlled 100% of the time we would walk in sinless perfection. But between the Holy Spirit and sinless perfection is us. And even if we are trying to be sinless we can become distracted, trust in our own ability, or a thousand other reasons we fail.

I just want to re-emphasize that holiness in conduct, speech, attitude, etc. is a moment by moment affair. And you don't get an inoculation against the desire to sin by some one-time experience.

True Witness,

I see sanctification in much the same way as you do.
The belief that we have to sin every day is just as wrong
as believing that we can live in a state of sinless perfection
In this life.

Sin no longer has dominion over the one that is born of God,
but there is always the possibility of sinning, for in my flesh
dwells no good thing.

Sanctification is both instantaneous at salvation, as The Lord sees
us in Christ as holy, unblamable, and without reproach, but the
work of the Holy Spirit in us is progressive throughout our lifetime.

Mike

////We must NOT mistake that yes we will have always inward sin and sinful realizations////

If I view Scripture from my experience or the experiences of those around me, than I would have to agree with this.

but if I lay my experience a side and just read Scripture, than I am not totally convinced that Scripture teaches that we will have to always have inward sin and sinful realizations.

I am also not totally convinced of the doctrine of the "SECOND BLESSING", probably because it has not yet been that of my experience.

I have experienced victory over a habitual sin, that I was unable to get victory over with my own will power.

The power to overcome it did not come gradual it came instantly, It did not come by my ongoing attempt to crucify myself or a seven step program, it came by reliezing myself dead and that that old habit and the old habitual sinner was put to death. The power to overcome came by a Spirtual breakthrough that was birthed after a long time of travail.

The guilt and the Identifying of myself with the sin had to be removed.

But I still have character flaws and inward sin, things I never even reliezed when I was bogged down by the larger more obvious sins,

So I am at the cross roads, do I try to approach overcoming the remaining sins by drinking a glass of self-denial daily or do I seek for a deeper break through.

It does seem that their are Scriptures that suggest both ways, so I would ask that further discussion continue on the subject.
from the post that I have read both Brenda and Colin have conducted themselves appropriately. and their are Preachers promoted by SI, that hold very simmiler views to what they are espousing.

Paul West wrote in the locked thread: ////This daily, provisional motivation and responsibility to not feed the flesh but rather mortify its lusts through our collaboration with the Holy Spirit is entirely scriptural and I can provide dozens of verses if anyone would like////

I would be interested in those verses being provided, Paul W or anyone else like minded giving their understanding of those verses and also Brenda and Colin or anyone else like minded giving their understanding to those verses.

I believe this could be done in a non contentious way.

lets not confuse the seconed blessings and the so called third blessing which is what krautfra is talking about ,,,this is not holiness doctrine as taught by weasly and others ,,this is even what krautfra has said recently ,,,it also worth noticing that many who believe in a seconed blessing define it differently due to different definitions of what exactly sin is,,this seems to be why there is much division in the second blessing camp ,, also the fact that peoples experience of the second blessings ,often induses different levels of scencing ones flesh and holiness of Christ which is probably due upon the soveren porpus of god that he is working out through his individual children

we need to keep things like this in mind and not box in gods spirit to an experience of ours or somebody elses that we don't even know

we only need to look as far as weasly and whitfield to see this ,,,both preached under the same powerful anointing

I think we all agree that one cant preach with power and boldness and see multitudes of conversion with out the baptism of the spirit

blessings

I loved how greg just put that

well said true witness ,that hit the mark brother

I would be interested in those verses being provided, Paul W or anyone else like minded giving their understanding of those verses and also Brenda and Colin or anyone else like minded giving their understanding to those verses.

We are in a war. The world fights against us through a spiritual system engineered to electrify the flesh and stimulate the mind by way of carnality. The flesh is conducive to this system and must be mortified by the Spirit of God to quell its violence against the inner man (Galatians 5:17). Demonic forces ruthlessly assault our minds seeking to erect strongholds and control the direction of our thoughts. In this fight, God does His part, and we do ours. God will not work in this area without us, and there is no one-time quick fix to teleport you out of the arena this side of mortality. But what God has promised is that while in the arena we can partake of His Divine Nature (2 Peter 1:4) and overcome Satan, the world's system and the lusts of our flesh daily.

The Baptism in the Holy Spirit is the gateway to this life of overcoming; it puts us where we need to be: in the "Source", to receive power and grace as we abide in Christ. The blood also flows here in conjunction with the Spirit, a great Fountain of continuous cleansing and justification to those who walk in the light (I John 1:9). Light is given progressively as we obey that which has already been shown to us (Phil. 3:16).

Some verses that speak of our collaborative effort with the Holy Spirit in our walk are: We are exhorted by the Holy Spirit to keep our minds strong and tight (I Peter 1:13); to keep our minds occupied by pure and wholesome things which are approved by God (Philippians 3:13-14); to scrutinize and arrest any and all unauthorized thoughts (II Corinthians 10:3-5); to keep our hearts and minds in peace by not worrying (Philippians 4:6-7); to diligently keep our hearts from being subverted (Proverbs 4:23); to protect our hearts by taking on the very mind of Christ (Philippians 2:5); to be renewed in the spirit of our minds (Ephesians 4:23); to be transformed by the renewing of our minds to know the perfect will of God (Romans 12:2); to have rule over our own spirits (Proverbs 16:32; 25:28); to not allow past failings to torment us (Philippians 3:13,14); to mortify the flesh by “putting on” the Lord Jesus Christ, so that by failing to provide the flesh with substance the lusts of body will not be fulfilled (Romans 13:14); and to “arm” ourselves with the same mind Jesus Christ had, unto suffering in the flesh to the ceasing of sin (I Peter 4:1-2).

All these verses and many more (I can send you my books free of charge, in which these and hundreds of other verses are looked at in detail) denote an on-going collaborative effort between us and the Holy Spirit. The true overcoming life is an exchanged life: ours for Christ's. I believe that is the true purpose of the Holy Spirit. So we can love like Christ loved, give like Christ gave, walk like Christ walked. Is Jesus addicted to pornography? Does He love money? Does He argue theology? Does He hold grudges, fear the future, fight for earthly causes? "As He is, so are we in the world" (I John 4:17).

that's what I said Brenda ,,,it was not what weasly taught nor what the general weaslen holiness taught it was even denounces as heresy

so that should be made clear to those who are seeking to follow what weasly taught

the man who propounded this third blessing all so was very very questionable in his general out look of scripture

notice the leaglisim in his teachings

wikki

By 1900, Irwin also taught there were additional "baptisms of fire" he called baptisms of "dynamite", "lyddite", and "oxidite". This "chemical jargon" never took root within the church and was abandoned by Irwin's successors.[9]

Other doctrines held by Irwin were also rejected after his departure. He, like other holiness Christians, was against women wearing "needless ornamentation". However, he also applied this prohibition to men, making it a sin to wear neckties. He also said it was a sin to eat anything forbidden by the dietary laws of the Old Testament. As a result, the church was sometimes called "the no ties, no hog-meat people."[

sounds holy doesn't it

what about this

In 1900, Irwin confessed to "open and gross sin" which brought "great reproach" to the church. He resigned as general overseer and was replaced by Joseph H. King, a 31 year old former Methodist from Georgia. The revelation of Irwin's failure greatly affected the church; several state associations collapsed

hmmmmm

Brenda I never pronounced any one as a hertic you have falsely acused be so to speak by implying I should show evidence ,,,,sister that would equat to sin on your part ,,,so much for being perfectly sinless ,,,,

I said that the third blessing was denounced as a heresy ,, I defenitly didn't denounce it my self at all

you go against weasly when you teach a third blessing ,,,he taught only two,,that is a main difference I would think ,,which would imply that the second blessing isn't a full sanctification

to keep weasly in contex with what he taught would be a hard thing to do due to the amount of wrightings and how we all change and inhance our views as we grow

Perfection is the process of sanctification which is both an instantaneous and a progressive work of grace. It may also be called entire sanctification, in which the heart of the believer is cleansed from inbred sin by the infilling of the Holy Spirit. Christian perfection, according to Wesley, is “purity of intention, dedicating all the life to God” and “the mind which was in Christ, enabling us to walk as Christ walked.” It is "loving God with all our heart, and our neighbor as ourselves".[3] It is “a restoration not only to the favor, but likewise to the image of God,” our “being filled with the fullness of God.”[4]

Wesley was clear that Christian perfection did not imply perfection of bodily health or an infallibility of judgment. It also does not mean one no longer violates the will of God, for involuntary transgressions remain. Perfected Christians remain subject to temptation, and have continued need to pray for forgiveness and holiness. It is not an absolute perfection but a perfection in love. Furthermore, Wesley did not teach a salvation by perfection, but rather says that, “Even perfect holiness is acceptable to God only through Jesus Christ.”[5]

Wesley did not use perfection to describe sinlessness. Similarly, perfection is not the state of being unable to sin, but rather the state of choosing not to sin. Wesley's perfection represents a change of life, a freedom from willful rebellion against God, impure intentions, and pride. Wesley also did not view perfection as permanent.

As regarding the concept of sinless perfection, John Wesley himself did not use this term and noted in his book A Plain Account of Christian Perfection that "...sinless perfection is a phrase I never use, lest I should seem to contradict myself."
wikki

weasly says

. 1. In the first place I shall endeavor to show in what sense Christians are not perfect. And both from experience and Scripture it appears, First, that they are not perfect in knowledge: they are not so perfect in this life as to be free from ignorance. They know, it may be, in common with other men, many things relating to the present world; and they know, with regard to the world to come, the general truths which God hath revealed. They know, likewise, (what the natural man receiveth not, for these things are spiritually discerned,) "what manner of love" it is wherewith "the Father" hath loved them, "that they should be called the sons of God." [1 John 3:1] They know the mighty working of his Spirit in their hearts; [Eph. 3:16] and the wisdom of his providence, directing all their paths, [Prov. 3:6] and causing all things to work together for their good. [Rom. 8:28] Yea, they know in every circumstance of life what the Lord requireth of them, and how to keep a conscience void of offence both toward God and toward man. [Acts 24:16]

4. No one, then, is so perfect in this life, as to be free from ignorance. Nor, Secondly, from mistake; which indeed is almost an unavoidable consequence of it; seeing those who "know but in part" [1 Cor. 13:12] are ever liable to err touching the things which they know not. It is true, the children of God do not mistake as to the things essential to salvation: They do not "put darkness for light, or light for darkness;" [Isa. 5:20] neither "seek death in the error of their life." [Wisdom 1:12] For they are "taught of God," and the way which he teaches them, the way of holiness, is so plain, that "the wayfaring man, though a fool, need not err therein." [Isa. 35:8] But in things unessential to salvation they do err, and that frequently. The best and wisest of men are frequently mistaken even with regard to facts; believing those things not to have been which really were, or those to have been done which were not.

5. Nay, with regard to the Holy Scriptures themselves, as careful as they are to avoid it, the best of men are liable to mistake, and do mistake day by day; especially with respect to those parts thereof which less immediately relate to practice. Hence even the children of God are not agreed as to the interpretation of many places in holy writ: Nor is their difference of opinion any proof that they are not the children of God on either side; but it is a proof that we are no more to expect any living man to be infallible than to be omniscient.

8. Nor can we expect, till then, to be wholly free from temptation. Such perfection belongeth not to this life. It is true, there are those who, being given up to work all uncleanness with greediness, [Eph. 4:19] scarce perceive the temptations which they resist not, and so seem to be without temptation. There are also many whom the wise enemy of souls, seeing to be fast asleep in the dead form of godliness, will not tempt to gross sin, lest they should awake before they drop into everlasting burnings. I know there are also children of God who, being now justified freely, [Rom. 5:1] having found redemption in the blood of Christ, [Eph. 1:7] for the present feel no temptation. God hath said to their enemies, "Touch not mine anointed, and do my children no harm." [see 1 Chron. 16:22] And for this season, it may be for weeks or months, he causeth them to "ride on high places;" [Deut. 32:13] he beareth them as on eagles' wings, [Exod. 19:4] above all the fiery darts of the wicked one. [Eph. 6:16] But this state will not last always; as we may learn from that single consideration, -- that the Son of God himself, in the days of his flesh, was tempted even to the end of his life. [Heb. 2:18; 4:15; 6:7] Therefore, so let his servant expect to be; for "it is enough that he be as his Master." [Luke 6:40

now some of this seems like a contradiction to what Brenda wrote ,,we need to not isolate any of it but as with scripture keep it in one contex and interprat it in light of scripture

god bless us

weasly says

Christian perfection, therefore, does not imply (as some men seem to have imagined) an exemption either from ignorance or mistake, or infirmities or temptations. Indeed, it is only another term for holiness. They are two names for the same thing. Thus every one that is perfect is holy, and every one that is holy is, in the Scripture sense, perfect. Yet we may, lastly, observe, that neither in this respect is there any absolute perfection on earth. There is no perfection of degrees, as it is termed; none which does not admit of a continual increase. So that how much soever any man hath attained, or in how high a degree soever he is perfect, he hath still need to "grow in grace," [2 Pet. 3:18] and daily to advance in the knowledge and love of God his Saviour

it is interesting to see weasly say there is no such thing as an perfection experience that does not admit to continual increase

that's what I believe Andrew ,,that baptisim in the spirit is not this hyped up over top experience but something many of us have had as a second blessing we just need to relive and be revived back to our lord and his son

blessings brother

hi Brenda you quoted weasly as saying

They are freed from evil thoughts, so that they cannot enter into them, no, not for a moment. Aforetime, when an evil thought came in, they hooked up, and it vanished away. But now it does not come in, there being no room for this, in a soul which is full of God.

I quoted him saying

8. Nor can we expect, till then, to be wholly free from temptation. Such perfection belongeth not to this life. It is true, there are those who, being given up to work all uncleanness with greediness, [Eph. 4:19] scarce perceive the temptations which they resist not, and so seem to be without temptation. There are also many whom the wise enemy of souls, seeing to be fast asleep in the dead form of godliness, will not tempt to gross sin, lest they should awake before they drop into everlasting burnings. I know there are also children of God who, being now justified freely, [Rom. 5:1] having found redemption in the blood of Christ, [Eph. 1:7] for the present feel no temptation. God hath said to their enemies, "Touch not mine anointed, and do my children no harm." [see 1 Chron. 16:22] And for this season, it may be for weeks or months, he causeth them to "ride on high places;" [Deut. 32:13] he beareth them as on eagles' wings, [Exod. 19:4] above all the fiery darts of the wicked one. [Eph. 6:16] But this state will not last always; as we may learn from that single consideration, -- that the Son of God himself, in the days of his flesh, was tempted even to the end of his life. [Heb. 2:18; 4:15; 6:7] Therefore, so let his servant expect to be; for "it is enough that he be as his Master." [Luke 6:40

these are seeming contradictions being freed from evil thoughts so it is imposable to enter in
and still have evil temtations is something that's will be hard to understand ,,the later showin that one is not free from evil thoughts and temptations

regarding degrees weasly definition of degrees is of reaching a level that does not continue to grow is a false notion ... hence the idea of a reaching a holy perfect level of sangtfication from one experience is what he would call or say , this,,,, there is no such this as degrees of perfection

now we come to mistakes weasly does not define them as sins ,,yet others do ,,,this is also where great contention lyes I confess mistakes are sin and have mercy on us god make many of them

alot to meditate on.

//// freedom is gained by the power of God given in an instant. This is the way God works, and which shows us that it was His doing not ours so the praise of it goes to Him.////

I do agree with this.

Sorry it's a bit long.

Quote by Proudpapa: I would be interested in those verses being provided, Paul W or anyone else like minded giving their understanding of those verses and also Brenda and Colin or anyone else like minded giving their understanding to those verses.

Quote Proupapa wants addressed: daily, provisional motivation and responsibility to not feed the flesh but rather mortify its lusts through our collaboration with the Holy Spirit is entirely scriptural and I can provide dozens of verses if anyone would like.

I will touch on this subject… but we must define what the flesh is.

The Greek word for “flesh” in the New Testament is sarx, a term that can often in Scripture refer to the physical body. However, A Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament and Other Early Christian Literature describes the word this way: “the physical body as functioning entity”; in Paul’s thought, all parts of the body constitute a totality known as flesh.

We know that the body will not be dealt until it is glorified, but the “Flesh” is more than “the physical body” as it doesn’t constitute the totality of what we are as humans. The question I would ask is the “the physical body” evil in and of itself or is it an instrument for either good or evil.

Can the “the physical body” have lusts?

The “the physical body” has senses these are what Satan uses to tempt us! The enemy uses these three things, the lust of the flesh(“the physical body as functioning entity”); the lust of the eyes (“the physical body as functioning entity”); and the pride of life (“the physical body as functioning entity”), to entice us to sin. The lust of the flesh (“the physical body as functioning entity”); includes tasting, touching, smelling, and hearing. The lust of the eyes is seeing. The pride of life is thinking you are special because of who you are, what you have, what you know, or what you look like.

However temptation is not sin, what comes at you from the outside does not defile you. “But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed”. The word translated "lust" here literally means "desire." Temptation always begins with desire. Sin does not take place at the moment of desire. Rather, desire must "conceive" before it can produce sin. What does it mean for a desire to "conceive"? We know from scripture where the conception that produces sin takes place: in the heart. Keep thy heart with all diligence: for out of it [are] the issues of life. It is in our heart that we make our decisions. Sin must take root in the heart before it can be manifested in our lives.

Can the “the physical body” have desires? ----- Yes the “the physical body” can have desires, the desire for food but that is not sin. Sin must be "conceived" in the heart. So when the thought comes that says “you are special” that’s not sin, however if you agree with that thought in your heart conception has taken place then sin is born. However as I said the body will not be dealt until it is glorified, we will always have desires of “the physical body” but the “Flesh” is more than just “the physical body”. “The physical body” is an instrument a tool that’s used to interact with this world and has five senses; taste, touch, smell, hearing, and seeing, it is not evil in itself.

The Flesh ---- “the physical body as functioning entity” is Spirit, Soul and Body. From now onwards I will deal with the source of the defilement the soul or as it’s commonly used in scripture “the heart” as this is the place where sin is conceived. I will use the term flesh but keep in mind what I said about the “the physical body” Can the root of the defilement the heart be dealt with; do we have to wait until we are glorified until it’s pure? Jesus said “blessed are the pure in heart for they shall see God”, surely then it is possible to have a pure heart.

Something we must consider is the Covenants of God because through the whole of the Old Covenant there was always one trouble: men’s heart was not right with God and the central demand of the Old Covenant was “Obey My voice, and I will be your God”. In the New Covenant the evil is to be remedied. Its promise is a heart delighting in God’s law and capable of knowing and holding fellowship with Him and that he (God) will be your God.

In Galatians it shows us that the difference between the Old and New Covenants in three things.

1 The law and its works are contrasted with the hearing of faith.
2 The flesh and its religion are contrasted with the flesh crucified.
3 The impotence to good is contrasted with a walk in the liberty and the power of the Spirit.

1 “Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or the hearing of faith?” These Galatians had indeed been born into the New Covenant; they had received the Holy Spirit. But they had been led away by Jewish teachers, and, though they had been justified by faith, they were seeking to be sanctified by works (made perfect); they were looking for the maintenance and the growth of their Christian life to the observance of the law. They had not understood that, equally with the beginning, the progress of the Divine life is alone by faith, day by day receiving its strength from Christ alone; that in Jesus Christ nothing avails but faith working by love.

Almost every believer makes the same mistake as the Galatian Christians. Very few learn at conversion at once that it is only by faith that we stand, and walk, and live. They have no understanding of the meaning of Paul’s teaching about being dead to the law, freed from the law—about the freedom with which Christ makes us free. “As many as are led by the Spirit are not under the law”. Rather they regard the law as an ordinance for our direction, they consider themselves prepared and fitted by conversion to take up the fulfillment of the law as a natural duty. They cannot understand that it is not to the law, but to a Living Person, that we are now bound, and that our obedience and holiness are only possible by the unceasing faith in His power ever working in us. It is only when this is seen, that we are prepared truly to live in the New Covenant.

2 The second word, that reveals the Old Covenant spirit, is the word “flesh.” Its contrast is, the flesh crucified. Paul asks: “Are ye so foolish? Having begun in the Spirit, are ye made perfect in the flesh?” Flesh means our sinful human nature. At his conversion the Christian has generally no understanding of the evil of his nature, and the subtlety with which it offers itself to take part in the service of God. It may be most willing in God’s service for a time; it may devise numberless observances for making His worship pleasing and attractive; and yet this may be all only what Paul calls “making a fair show in the flesh”. This power of the religious flesh is one of the great marks of the Old Covenant religion; it misses the deep humility and spirituality of the true worship of God — a heart and life entirely dependent upon Him.

The proof that your operating in the religious flesh, is that the sinful flesh will be found to flourish along with it. It was with the Galatians. While they were making a fair show in the flesh, their daily life was full of bitterness and envy and hatred, pride and other sins. They were biting and devouring one another, can you see religious flesh operating in yourself can you see it on the posts on sermon index? Religious flesh and sinful flesh are one, no wonder then with a great deal of religion there is anger, temper, selfishness, pride and worldliness as they are so often found side by side………. The religion of the flesh cannot conquer sin.

What a contrast to the religion of the New Covenant! What is the place the flesh? “They that are Christ’s have crucified the flesh, with its desires and affections.” Scripture speaks of the will of the flesh, the mind of the flesh, the lust of the flesh; all this true believer has seen to be condemned and crucified in Christ. Nothing less than the death of Christ was needed to start the New Covenant, and the resurrection life that animates it, there is no entrance into the true New Covenant life other than by a partaking of that death.

3 “Fallen from grace.” This is a third word that describes the condition of these Galatians in that bondage. Paul is not speaking of a final falling away here, for he still addresses them as Christians, but of their having wandered from that walk in the way of enabling and sanctifying grace, in which a Christian can get the victory over sin. As long as grace is principally connected with pardon and the entrance to the Christian life, the flesh is the only power in which to serve and work. But when we know what exceeding abundance of grace has been provided, and how God “makes all grace abound, that we may abound to all good works,” we know that, as it is by faith, so too it is by grace alone that we stand a single moment or take a single step.

The contrast to this life of impotence and failure is found in the one word, “the Spirit.” Of the New Covenant promise, “I will put My Spirit within you, and I will cause you to walk in My statutes, and ye shall keep My judgments”.

Please think about it “I will put My Spirit within you, and I will cause you to walk in My statutes, and ye shall keep My judgments. Think about what Peter says speaking about the promised Holy Spirit: Acts 15:8-9 And God, which knoweth the hearts, bare them witness, giving them the Holy Ghost, even as he did unto us; And put no difference between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith.

The Spirit deals with the root cause of the defilement it “purifies the hearts by faith” that is why you are enabled to walk in God statutes and judgements.

Rememebr what Paul say to the Galatians “They that are Christ’s have crucified the flesh, with its desires and affections.”

Crucifixion of the flesh “the totality of what we are as humans” is the negative side of the cross it puts to death the desires and affections of the fallen heart and makes the body inactive for evil, the positive side of the cross is Resurrection where you’ll find that your heart is purified by faith and that your desires and affections are completely changed, the body then becomes an implement for righteousness. You been changed from a fleshy being to a Spiritual being, your enabled to walk in the spirit why because of the promise “I will cause you to walk in My statutes”

* edit spelling and to add a word

RE: ///Remember, we had a taste of it when we first came to know Him. .///

I have tasted and more times than just the initial time I first came to know Him.

This is where I am at the cross roads, it seems as Paul W, Greg and others are espousing that it is up to us to daily try to reachieve and mantain this filling, and their does seem to be many Scriptures that allude to this being the case.

It seems that Brenda and Colin are espousing pressing through such a deep breakthrough that very little conscious effort is needed on our part to maintain this filling once such a breakthrough has happened.

Alot of Scriptures seem to indicate both, but certainly I am encouraged and challenged by Colins desire to press on, I do not see any reason to distract such a desire.

I have alot to continue to meditate on.

Proudpapa - Thank you for those kind words.

If you were to take anything from what I wrote it would be these words which is a promise from God.

"I will put My Spirit within you, and I will cause you to walk in My statutes"

Here is the testimony of Hudson Taylor

http://www.antiochnc.net/uploads/1/5/0/9/15093264/10-testimony_of_hudson_taylor_the_exchanged_life.pdf

well we obviously totally disagree Brenda ,about what wealsy is saying ,,, all I can say the paragraph should be kept in context weasly has linked perfection and it continual in crease with growing in grace these two cannot be separated just as the god head is one

I honestly believe that your letting your theology say something that wealsy is not saying

here's some more from a sermon from john ,and I have to say I agree with him fully ,tho I would define most of what he is saying as sin which would be to miss the mark , this is the christen perfection that I believe in

weasly said

I will endeavour to show what perfection is.

1. And First, I do not conceive the perfection here spoken of, to be the perfection of angels. As those glorious beings never "left their first estate," never declined from their original perfection, all their native faculties are unimpaired: Their understanding, in particular, is still a lamp of light, their apprehension of all things clear and distinct, and their judgment always true. Hence, though their knowledge is limited, (for they are creatures,) though they are ignorant of innumerable things, yet they are not liable to mistake: Their knowledge is perfect in its kind. And as their affections are all constantly guided by their unerring understanding, so all their actions are suitable thereto; so they do, every moment, not their own will, but the good and acceptable will of God. Therefore it is not possible for man, whose understanding is darkened, to whom mistake is as natural as ignorance; who cannot think at all, but by the mediation of organs which are weakened and depraved, like the other parts of his corruptible body; it is not possible, I say, for men always to think right, to apprehend things distinctly, and to judge truly of them. In consequence hereof, his affections, depending on his understanding, are variously disordered. And his words and actions are influenced, more or less, by the disorder both of his understanding and affections. It follows that no man, while in the body, can possibly attain to angelic perfection.

2. Neither can any man, while he is in a corruptible body, attain to Adamic perfection. Adam, before his fall, was undoubtedly as pure, as free from sin, as even the holy angels. In like manner, his understanding was as clear as theirs, and his affections as regular. In virtue of this, as he always judged right, so he was able always to speak and act right. But since man rebelled against God, the case is widely different with him. He is no longer able to avoid falling into innumerable mistakes; consequently, he cannot always avoid wrong affections; neither can he always think, speak, and act right. Therefore man, in his present state, can no more attain Adamic than angelic perfection3. The highest perfection which man can attain, while the soul dwells in the body, does not exclude ignorance, and error, and a thousand other infirmities. Now, from wrong judgments, wrong words and actions will often necessarily flow: And, in some cases, wrong affections also may spring from the same source. I may judge wrong of you: I may think more or less highly of you than I ought to think; and this mistake in my judgment may not only occasion something wrong in my behaviour, but it may have a still deeper effect; it may occasion something wrong in my affection. From a wrong apprehension, I may love and esteem you either more or less than I ought. Nor can I be freed from a likableness to such a mistake while I remain in a corruptible body. A thousand infirmities, in consequence of this, will attend my spirit, till it returns to God who gave it. And, in numberless instances, it comes short of doing the will of God, as Adam did in paradise. Hence the best of men may say from the heart,

edit add more of sermon

it all ,,mostly all sin

this is why I cant use the term sinless perfection ,,or intire sanctification ,,,it seems inappropriate

blessings

Andrew wrote: It has to be noted that this experience is not the baptism of the Holy Spirit.

Kartfu wrote: The writer does not say his experience was not baptism of the Spirit, and amongst holiness writers whether Salvationists or from other denominations, it does not matter, the experience is generally known as the baptism of the Spirit apart from Pentecostal sources

Something I have had to be renewed in thought about was this exact thing.

Now as you have made you aware of is that before I started attending church, I had an experience of a wind entering my body and there after speaking in tongues.

So when the Spirit started to speak me about holiness and the deeper work, which I seen termed as the Baptism of the Spirit my thinking had to change on subject.

When you look at the Corinthians you’ll see what I mean.

1 The were born again. 1 Cor 1:2
2 They were babes in Christ (Still Carnal) 1 Cor 3:1-3
3 They operated in the gifts of the Spirit 1 Cor 12:1-30

But then Paul turns around and says to them 1 Cor 12:1-31, I will show you a more excellent way.

Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, and have not love, I am become as sounding brass, or a tinkling cymbal. 1 Cor 13:1

So there you have a description of me I am born again, I am carnal because my “flesh” has not been crucified. (The Holy Spirit gave me understanding on this matter showing me what remained inside) I can and do operate in the gifts of the Spirit.

But yet the Holy Spirit opened up to me a more excellent way.

Then I look to Peter said about the Baptism of the Holy Spirit, And God, which knoweth the hearts, bare them witness, giving them the Holy Ghost, even as he did unto us; And put no difference between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith. Acts 15:8-9.

The more excellent is having purified heart, a heart that oozes with love for God and men.

I would encourage anyone with doubts, at first when I started looking at scripture I couldn’t see it, I was blind to the truth. However now I see it more clearly and I see it all through scripture.

My thinking focused on the Holy Spirit and the gifts of the Spirit, to me that was the Baptism of the Holy Spirit, but as you can see from Peter description he relates it to purifying effect of the Spirit rather than the gifts.

So for all you out there who are born again, who operate in the gifts of the Spirit but struggle with carnality let me say this there is a more excellent way and that is having your heart purified by faith by the Holy Spirit. It is the promise of the Father.

And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them. Ezekiel 36:27

Let me ask what his statutes are, Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with your entire mind and with all your strength and Love your neighbor as yourself. There is no commandment greater than these.

I hope you can see how this relates to the more excellent way 1 Cor 13:1

Removed double post

lol your at odds with what I just posted about what weasly said ,,please read again real slowly

john is talking about wilful rebellion ,no repentance

im just saying what weasly is calling mistakes wrong affections and wrong tempers ects , are technicaly sin ,,but not wilful rebellion , what is not of faith is sin paul said and those things weasly is speaking about does not come from faith but falleness 2. Neither can any man, while he is in a corruptible body, attain to Adamic perfection. Adam, before his fall, was undoubtedly as pure, as free from sin, as even the holy angels. In like manner, his understanding was as clear as theirs, and his affections as regular. In virtue of this, as he always judged right, so he was able always to speak and act right. But since man rebelled against God, the case is widely different with him. He is no longer able to avoid falling into innumerable mistakes; consequently, he cannot always avoid wrong affections; neither can he always think, speak, and act right. Therefore man, in his present state, can no more attain Adamic than angelic perfection.

3. The highest perfection which man can attain, while the soul dwells in the body, does not exclude ignorance, and error, and a thousand other infirmities. Now, from wrong judgments, wrong words and actions will often necessarily flow: And, in some cases, wrong affections also may spring from the same source. I may judge wrong of you: I may think more or less highly of you than I ought to think; and this mistake in my judgment may not only occasion something wrong in my behaviour, but it may have a still deeper effect; it may occasion something wrong in my affection. From a wrong apprehension, I may love and esteem you either more or less than I ought. Nor can I be freed from a likableness to such a mistake while I remain in a corruptible body. A thousand infirmities, in consequence of this, will attend my spirit, till it returns to God who gave it. And, in numberless instances, it comes short of doing the will of God, as Adam did in paradise. Hence the best of men may say from the heart,

please read

brother colin with all due respect ,,why don't you practice what you preach ,,,, go get this what ,,third blessing ,, and give your testimony ,,show us brother this next level of holiness ,with holy words and love ,,it all just as rhetoric and words ,,,im sure that you will have more of an effect in your witness if it is as people say

blessings