63 Questions for those who oppose holiness

Healingwaters wrote:Define "Complete Repentance" and "Holiness" in what you think they mean.KarlVery good questions Karl. This is the real issue. What irritates me about many a "holiness preacher" (which I consider myself to be) is that many throw around words like repentance and holiness without defining them to their hearers. Even worse, when repentance is defined as "stopping doing the wrong thing and starting to do the right thing" and holiness and "never doing anything wrong". This is a very imbalanced way of looking at it, and although these are greatly held up, due to many a "revivalist" (eg, Finney, Wesley, etc...) stressing "meathods" over "sovereignity", in similar ways that atheists stress "science" vs "religion". In both cases, one does not negate the other, in any way shape or form...except in thses circumstances. Science will only contradict true christian doctrine, when a false theory (eg, evolution or chaos theory). Meathods only contradict sovereignity when there twisted in a way that negates grace. Although the preacher will rarely admit this is the case (as with the evolutionary-deist who claims that "God could have done it that way"), they do this by claiming that man can be perfect, via will power.One example of this kind of thing, is Ray Comfort's denial of the definition of repentance as being a "change of mind" (which is J Edwin Orr's definition). Although I have a great deal of respect for Comfort, and his teachings have exposed a great deal of error in my own theology, this statment is incorrect (although his sentiments are true). Repentance in Greek is metanoia, which is broken down as meta(change)noia(mind). Literally to repent is to change one's mind. However, both Jesus and John the Baptist stressed the necessity of of producing "fruit meet for repentance", ie if you ruly change your mind about something, then your behaviour will change.In contrast, Finney's sermon "Faith" stresses the fact that meathods are useless without faith, although Revival Lectures seem to present the opposite. Wesley stressed that true Arminianism does not deny the sovereignity of God, although the Calvinists claim the Arminus did deny it.It seems that "grace" vs "holiness", is the modern day equivelent to the Calvin/Ariminus debate. Although I admit that there are many a "grace" preacher that appears to be presenting "licence", there are also alot of "holiness" preachers that are really presnting "legalism". It has nothing to do with the intentions of the preacher (Jesse, from what I've heard of your preaching, and read of your articles, I understand that your not legalistic), but more that of ignoring "small issues" that imply "big problems", or slight errors that can lead people astray. An excellent preacher that toes the line between "grace"/"holiness" is Paris Reidhead (you have to go beyond "10 Shekels and a Shirt" to see it though). May I recomend my article Righteous Submission vs Zealous Obedience to Principle for a more detailed view on this issue.

One example of this kind of thing, is Ray Comfort's denial of the definition of repentance as being a "change of mind" (which is J Edwin Orr's definition). Although I have a great deal of respect for Comfort, and his teachings have exposed a great deal of error in my own theology, this statment is incorrect (although his sentiments are true). Repentance in Greek is metanoia, which is broken down as meta(change)noia(mind). Literally to repent is to change one's mind. However, both Jesus and John the Baptist stressed the necessity of of producing "fruit meet for repentance", ie if you ruly change your mind about something, then your behaviour will change.I don't know Ray Comfort's work but I think I can guess what is happening.'metanoia' in Greek does mean a change of mind, but 'metanoia' in the Septuagint, the old Greek translation of the Hebrew Bible was used to translate the Hebrew word 'nacham' and 'nacham' means much more than to 'change the mind'. It means, literally, to sigh or sob. So when a Hebrew used the word 'metanoia' he was not using it in the narrow Greek sense but with all the history of the word 'nacham' behind it.If you want a definition of repentance, Christ has one. Mat 12:41 KJV The men of Nineveh shall rise in judgment with this generation, and shall condemn it: because they repented at the preaching of Jonas; and, behold, a greater than Jonas is here. So now all you need do is read Jonah 3, find out how the men of Nineveh behaved, and you will have Christ's definition of 'repentance'.Or if you want a short cut, you could listen to this.

An elder at my last church defined true repentance as: "when you have the chance to commit that sin again-- you don't." Repentance begins with a change of heart, to where one now hates sin instead of loving it, and fulfills itself in righteous living.

According to your theology, how much sin can a man commit and still go to Heaven?We must remember that God is not interested in out theolgy or our thoughts on what He does or doesn't do. He wants us to take on His holiness and righteousness that comes to us in spirit through Christ.We are not holy so Christ is our holiness, we are unrighteous therefore Christ is our righteousness. We can't fully comprehend the meaning of those terms without invoking the ministry of the Holy spirit because those are things attainable by the Him because they are foreign to us. All the questions you ask are good ones. The spirit will instruct me on which ones to address:What is meant by Jesus when He said "be perfect, just as your Father in Heaven is perfect"? Matt 5:48Christ meant exactly that, we should be perfect as God is. Now how is that attained when we live in an imperfect state? It all stems from the Christ, Christ IS our perfection. We must put Him on in spirit, and become perfect in spirit by allowing the Holy Spirit to do as God desires. The flesh is corrupted and there is no perfecting that. The flesh rebels against God. The perfection Christ speaks of comes from us being perfected in spirit (not flesh) and walking continually in that spirit.Your questions are easily answered by the Holy Spirit's ministering and that is what is required to get the true answers. Interpretations from the mind of man which is carnal can't help you or anyone else for that matter interpret what is spirit. That requires a revelation from God IN THE SPIRIT. Seek the spirit rather than our counsel bro. If the spirit does empower one or more of us to instruct you or anyone else then it will be so.

KrispyKrittr wrote:I'm all for holiness.... who wouldnt be?As for preachers defining for their congregation what that means, my question would be... why dont the individual Christians have enough horse-sense to figure it out for themselves? Do they not have Bibles? Why do we depend so much on our preachers to tell us what we need to know? Most everyone in the US has a Bible... maybe if it was read more often there would be a better understanding of holiness.No one can live a holy life and not be in the Word on a daily basis. It's like trying to build a house without any plans.KrispyWe should all read our bibles often, but we should be weary of the spirit in which we do it. Sometimes I read it to get information to prove a point to someone and make myself feel bigger as I'm sure we all have at some point, let's be honest here and not goof off on this. If the purpose of reading the bible is anything short of glorifying God then it is better to leave it alone. I know I'm on a soapbox about the Spirit but this is what God is placed on me heavily to speak on without ceasing until He says to stop. Brethren, I beseech you all to seek God's spirit concerning the Word. The pharisees knew the scriptures better than anyone else in their time but Christ referred to them as vipers and had no good things to say about them. One can know the bible back and forth and be just like the pharisees, lost. Of all the people they should have known Christ when they saw Him come. The spirit in which they learned the scriptures was one of self-glorification rather than God-glorification and we must not fall into this trap lest we lose our souls. The words of the bible have power but only when we seek the source of their power, the spirit of God. Without that the bible means nothing. The bible is like a lightbulb, if it is not plugged into the power source it can give off no light. Holiness and righteousness and such things are foreign to us and we can't experience them without the spirit of God because that is the source of these things.I'm not saying we should cease to read the bible. I'm saying we should read the bible not as a daily ritual but according to the instruction and compelling of the spirit. Anything outside of thay is fruitless. I mean if reading the bible was all it took, the world would be a much better place, but that is not where the power is as evidenced by the state of affairs. The anger God feels now is not because we're not praying, or searching the word, or evangelizing or any of those other things, it is the SPIRIT in which we do these things, most of the time we seek to glorify ourselves rather than God and God simply will NOT HAVE THAT. He is angry people and us as saints will be judged most harshly if we dont's shape up and seek Him in spirit and truth. We have substituted commentaries, books, theologies, ideologies and so on for the spirit of God. Now some of these commentaries etc are inspired by the spirit of GOd no doubt but again they are like a lightbulb and without us plugging it in to the powersource, they can give no light.I beseech us all to SEEK GOD EARNESTLY IN SPIRIT AND TRUTH WHILE THERE IS TIME FOR IT IS FAST RUNNING OUT.

Hi Jesse,Being a repentance and holiness minister myself, I have to ask:Do you feel that if a person transgresses their conscience and commits a sin they are lost until they repent and ask forgiveness? If the answer to that is Yes then my second question is:What sin(s) will damn the soul? Would the answer to that be "anything that you know to do good and are not doing it" or "whatsoever you do that is not of faith" or serious sins that war against the sould auch as the list in Galatians 5? If the answer is, "'any' known sin makes me once again a sinner" I would have to ask:Are you saying that transgression of the Law is what constitutes sin, therefor working on Sabbath and eating Pork is sin; or that things like:Smoking cigarettesChewing skoalWatching TVWearing jeans (women)etc. etc. You see, holiness has a very different definition that what we may apply to it. Finney believed salting your food was a sin if you did it so it would taste better. He believed fishing and hunting for sport was sin. He talked frequently about women dressing as sin. I am quite sure he would have considered a game of gulf as sin. Any thoughts?God Bless,-Robert

First, I believe that the new covenant promises freedom from sin's dominion - that as we humble ourselves, God gives us grace - and in grace we are delivered from sin's rule in our life. I believe that this deliverance is experienced according to faith - that is, the greater the faith, the greater the deliverance from sin's rule.So I am not opposed to holiness. I do however wonder at your second question - "How much sin can a man commit and still go to Heaven?"The answer would depend on how one was justified, and whether one were justified or not.When some religions teach that a man is justified by faith through grace, they really mean that through faith a man receives grace to be personally righteous - and that their own (grace infused) righteousness is what actually saves them.In this system, "the righteousness of Christ" is interpretted as "my own (experiential) righteousness which I obtained through faith."Under this system then, the answer would be no sin - that is, even one sin would thrust the person out of righteousness, and back into the ranks of the damned. Other systems teach that the believer is justified by Jesus Christ's own personal righteousness accounted to them when they exercise saving faith in Christ. That whatever personal holiness they possess or fail to possess does not in any way affect their status as God's child.In this scenario, the purpose of holiness is not to justify the believer - since Christ has justified the believer already - rather holiness is the natural condition of a heart in fellowship with God. If we love Christ, we will want to fellowship with Christ - and light has no fellowship with darkness - so we will go about trying to be holy - and fail, because it cannot be done in the flesh. Eventually, if we are serious enough, we will seek God with all our heart - and we will find him. The seeking process isn't just reading the bible - it is ascending the holy hill - and to do that one must have clean hands. Eventually the believer figures it out - he has to truly repent, but is unable to do so in his own power - so he begins to turn to Christ in faith to be delivered from sin's rule. As he continues to seek, knock, and ask - he progresses towards his goal - and eventually, if he faints not, he enters into that promised rest.That being the case, no amount of sin would disqualify him from heaven - but the least amount of sin would disqualify him from fellowship with Christ.The Spirit - in this second model, was forshadowed by the shekinah of glory in the wilderness that led the Israelites to the promised land. The Spirit convicts and moves the believer to pursue rest. Not every believer finds that rest - but every believer is saved.So I wonder in which way you meant it - that is, do you suppose that a person is justified by personal righteousness or by a judicial declaration by God?Dan/\\/\\/\\

The pharisees knew the scriptures better than anyone else in their time but Christ referred to them as vipers and had no good things to say about them. One can know the bible back and forth and be just like the pharisees, lost. Of all the people they should have known Christ when they saw Him come. The spirit in which they learned the scriptures was one of self-glorification rather than God-glorification and we must not fall into this trap lest we lose our souls. The words of the bible have power but only when we seek the source of their power, the spirit of God. Without that the bible means nothing. The bible is like a lightbulb, if it is not plugged into the power source it can give off no light. Ironman-this is the best thing I've read in a while! Thank you for putting that into perspective.I also have questions about what we consider "sin" and how we can be "perfect".I mean, are we to say that we are never going to be angry at our brother or friend, are we never going to have hidden pride in our hearts that comes out in some hideous form (unbeknownst to us until it is too late).Maybe I am alone here, but I have to admit that I know I sin EVERYDAY. I don't mean the obvious sins that i used to do or that others do- but my heart is still full of sinfullness that I don't even know is there.Am I to say that because I woke up in a bad mood this morning and yelled at my kids to hurry up and eat their breakfast- I am not going to heaven? Or because I thought myself better than someone else, more holy than another (when I am not really at all) and just realized it- that it was PRIDE in my heart making me believe that- that I am not going to heaven.No one is going to "act" perfect. No one is capable of having absolutely no fault.I know that as we live in Him, that we can overcome more and more as our life goes on. The more we live in Him and not in our flesh, then yes, we can live more and more towards His perfectness. Can anyone say that they never have a bad or wrong thought?can anyone here say that they are free from all pride?Can anyone here say that they have not gotten angered with someone (not Godly anger) in the past few days?can anyone say that thy have had self-control in every area of their life today? (food consumption, not being lazy, doing all their work to the best of their ability)?What about sins of omission? what about the things that we should do and do not do?hmmmmmmmmm.....many questions and more just keep coming. i think you could eventually feel like killing yourself jsut trying to keep up with all that you are "supposed to do" and "not supposed to do" and we could spend the rest of lives trying to be perfect and we would live one very miserable life - "centered on yourself" "what am "I" doing right or wrong? Wouldn't it be better to not focus so much on "self" all the time and give our time to others?I am all for obedience to the Lord. I am all for overcoming sin (especially habitual sin) I have overcome many things in my own walk with the Lord- thank the Lord!!! And I know He will continue to help me overcome in other areas as well. But I know that I will not be perfect until the day I see Him face to face.If we were perfect now, what need would we have of Him? Anyone can be "moral", anyone can follow a set of rules with or without Christ.

Hi Chanin, What about sins of omission? what about the things that we should do and do not do?You also make great points. Understand that I have a great zeal for holiness. But I am under no illusions as to having to stand before God in a 'sinless state.' There are 613 comandments + the teachings of Jesus. If we are talking about 'conscious sin' I would have to say- yes we can walk in freedom from that. But that is a million miles from TRUE holiness. It is merely what God requires. The Just shall live by faith. James said that pure religion was to visit the fatherless and the widows in their affliction AND to keep ourselves unspotted of the world. There are 248 "do's" that the Jews extracted from the Torah beginning in Genesis. The first is "Be fruitful and multiply." Some may say, "Well, I don't want kids!" Then according to the Law of the Jews, they just broke commandment #1. Finney would say you are sinning because you smoke a pipe, the Jews would say that command #1 is to bear children. Most holiness I see represented makes me want to just start running from the people and I am pretty radical by a radical persons standards (I speak as a fool). None of those things save me. I am never more saved than when I realize my insufficiency before God and "call upon the name of the Lord" for help. The Pharisees looked up to heaven thanking God they were not like those wretched sinners. What said the Lord to them? The most upset Jesus got on earth, in my opinion, was directed at religious folk who had no mercy. He called them hypocrites! They knew they were not holy and yet they still pretended to be. Have a zeal for 'holiness'? Nay- I would say rather have a zeal to delight in the Lord. Delight thyself in Him! And He will make you as holy as He will. God Bless,-Robert

There is a lie out there that says one can be saved from hell without being saved from sin. There is a lie out there that says one can be saved by believing in Christ, yet never be a disciple. There is a lie that out there that says holiness is optionial...2 Thes 2:13 ...God has chosen you from the beginning for salvation through sanctification by the Spirit and faith in the truth.

Here is a link to an article on this site by John Wesley on Christian Perfection.

I am never more saved than when I realize my insufficiency before God and "call upon the name of the Lord" for help. The Pharisees looked up to heaven thanking God they were not like those wretched sinners. What said the Lord to them? Amen!This is what the Lord has shown me as well. When we look at people (ourselves included) when we are in this state of "o, i am not worthy, I am nothing apart from God- only He is Holy and righteous and good beyond compare"-- that is when I see revival!Personal revival, corporate revival happens from brokeness and repentance and our seeing how He is ALL and we are not.When I have felt this way, when I have seen others this way- this blesses my soul. There is a group of men from Purelife who come to our church once a month (they visit 3 other churches the other sundays) but they come all together because they are staying away from home at a facility where they can (by God's grace) overcome their addiction to pornography and lust. They are (for the most part) already christians- but they are broken. They know how unworthy they are and how they NEED HIM.You should see these guys singing and crying (w/ literal tears)out to God during their worship. You can just feel the air of brokeness about them that brings in the presence of God. These guys are not perfect, they have much more road to cover, but their hearts are so ready for God to fill them up and to turn them toward the straight and narrow path.I cannot help but cry the whole time just watching them. You can see the hunger to know Him and to turn from their old ways.The Lord is near to the brokenhearted. I am glad because that is my state much of the time. :)In Him, chanin

I also have questions about what we consider "sin" and how we can be "perfect".I mean, are we to say that we are never going to be angry at our brother or friend, are we never going to have hidden pride in our hearts that comes out in some hideous form (unbeknownst to us until it is too late).When we make a resolution that "I'm not going to do this any more" we place ourselves under the letter of the law which kills. We should place ourselves under grace which is afforded us by the blood of christ. See we can't under our own power stop ourselves from sinning, think about it, how many resolutions have you or I kept after we made them? The grace of God is sufficient for us, the spirit of God will empower us to do God's work and the more time we spend doing that, the less there is time to sin.Anyone can be "moral", anyone can follow a set of rules with or without ChristOf course! look at the pharisees they followed all the rules but Christ had nothing good to say about them. We should seek Christ in all things. If we were perfect now, what need would we have of Him?The perfection is in the spirit. the natureof the flesh is to rebel against God and all that is holy and God seeks us to be perfect in Spirit because He is spirit. The flesh will never be holy and perfect as God wants our spirits to be, which is why He requires us to worship in spirit and truth.

I am not by any means promoting salvation by works or that a man has the power to save himself through his works. What I am saying is that there is power in the blood of Jesus, there is power in the grace of God. There is more power in them then some believe. Not only does the blood have the power to make you righteous in the sight of God, but it has the power to actually make you righteous. God is able to save a man to the uttermost. This is not salvation by your own righteousness, it is salvation by the righteousness of Christ. The salvation of God does not merely make you look holy on the outside to God, but it is a deep cleansing and change of the inner man. It is cleaning the inside of the cup, not merely the outside. Blessed are the pure in heart, for they shall see God. Being born-again by the Spirit of God is not merely being born-again in the eyes of God, but is actually having your entire life, not merely part of your life changed. Salvation and sanctification go hand in hand. They are married and have never been divorced. That is why the bible says "repent and believe". There indeed is all power in that blood for through it we are saved and we can know God in an unprecedented way.

Krispyyou know lately God has been laying that heavily on me, seeking the spirit in all things. We are all guilty of not doing so and this is whathas Him so angry. We are so far gone from Him, in an unprecedented way I might add, in spirit because we have placed other things in it's stead that it will take an unprecedented effort by Him in terms of judgment to get us back on track. in that process, many will just not be able to hack it.love yah!!!

The chastening of the LORD is not to reveal His anger with us, it is to wield His character into us. And I can assure you that He is NOT angry with us. He loves us more then we can ever know. The reason why He is not angry with us is simply because we have believed the report that Jesus Christ came to die for our sins and we have obeyed His voice when He wooed us to Himself, that my friend is pure agape love.The Lord does chasten those whom He loves. When we veer off track He comes and brings us back by whatever means necessary. The further we have strayed the more drastic the measure. Take for example 911, in the week or two after that many people sought God in earnest then that desire evaporated. Why is it we only seek GOd in times of adersity as if He his some sort of genie who does our bidding whenever, wherever whatever. He is not a teddybear either as some have come to belive. He is a HOLY and RIGHTEOUS GOd who can't have unholiness period. Yes we have believed on the death of Christ to sanctify us but that is just the beginning, we are to become perfect just as the father is perfect said Christ. He didn't say that after believing then everything is all good. If that were true there would be no need for the coming judgment or any judgement at all. God love us yes but let us not delude ourselves on this, He is angry with us because we have not worshipped Him in spirit and in truth, we have the Holy spirit there to sho us these things but we substiture other things in Hid stead and God will simply not have that.There is a terriible judgement coming which will catch many saints off guard because we think God isn't angry. Remember what happened to the Israelites? If they as God's chosen people were not spared for there transgressions, howcan we expect that? If even Christ, God's number 1 was not spared death how can we expect not to suffer?

Anyone can be "moral", anyone can follow a set of rules with or without Christ.One thing to be noted about Christ was not so much His teachings but His person. He really did not leave us with too much doctrinal teaching. If you study other religions (which, take it from me, is a waste of precious time) you will see that this is in sharp contrast to them.Followers of Confucius never formally assert that theirs is a religion. Confucianism merely exercises great influence on Chinese culture, education, ethics, and philosophy. One thing, however, is certain: the teachings and doctrines of Confucius are of foremost importance, while the person Confucius is not as crucial. I do not mean that Confucianism has no concern for Confucius. The man indeed was an extraordinary person. However, in order to be a part of Confucianism, one only needs to understand the doctrines of Confucius, abide by his teachings, and be thoroughly acquainted with his books. It does not matter whether one understands the man Confucius or not. The principles, doctrines, and teachings of Confucius are the essence of the religion.Next let us consider Buddhism. The founder of Buddhism was Sakya Muni. Once he preached to his disciples about evil persons being reincarnated through the Wheel of Rebirth after death. This is something that attracts man's attention. But in all of Buddhism, the point of emphasis is doctrines and theories. Concerning the man Sakya Muni, although he has a history and biography, they are something parenthetical. They do not form the crux of Buddhism. The center of the religion is not the man Sakya Muni. Whether there was such a person is unimportant to today's Buddhism. All that is needed are the doctrines and teachings.When Nicodemus questioned our Lord concerning the kingdom, he was told fact, “you must be born again”… “that which is born of Spirit is spirit” . without being born of spirit and maturing in spirit, the kingdom of God is but a philosophy, a fairy tale. It is wishful to believe that this flesh can be tamed. We need a new person altogether and this inward “man is made in true holiness after God”. This wine skin (man’s spirit) is a suitable dwelling place for Christ’s Spirit. The person Himself and not his teachings become our righteousness. We have no need to rely on memory or “assertions” and “discipline” but we rely on a person. What is largely lacking is first of all, the Spirit and second of all (after that the Spirit is received), a revelation of the Spirit within. The Corinthians were Spirit filled without a doubt but there were still many problems within them. The solution Paul prayed through for the was revelation from God of the person dwelling in them. James

A religion that permits sin is ridiculous; because it represents God as pleased with sin....And so does a sinning religionBrothers, you dull your own point by characterizing the vast majority of evangelical Christians as having a "sinning religion" that "opposes holiness." If we try to win our case by using such shrewdly sculpted language we look like religous pettifoggers, not faithful advocates. While the rhetoric succeeds at generating heat it fails at bringing any real light to the subject of holiness because it lacks basic integrity towards its audience. The professed Christians, who declare that they cannot be saved from all sin (sic) are really publishing to the world that God has made no provision to save from sin. And if He has made no provision, in His plan of salvation, to save from sin, then He does not discourage sin. And if He does not discourage it, His silence on the subject is an encouragement of it.Not so. This kind of argument is nothing more then a slight of hand designed to fluster. It presents a court case without due dilligence. If we try to convict men with such straw men, can we fault them for being slow to listen? The above statement does not address the vast majority of Christians who readily agree that God has called man to repent from sin and to sin no more. It is a contrivance to say they "oppose holiness" and "encourage sin." If we need religion at all, we need it at this point, for if we are saved from sin we are saved from hell, for hell is but the result of sin I'm sure the author isn't fairly represented by this myopic statement. For instance, he would probably agree with Oswald Chambers who said"Salvation is not merely deliverance from sin, nor the experience of personal holiness; the salvation of God is deliverance out of self entirely into union with Himself. My experimental knowledge of salvation will be along the line of deliverance from sin and of personal holiness; but salvation means that the Spirit of God has brought me into touch with God's personality, and I am thrilled with something infinitely greater than myself, I am caught up into the abandonment of God. To say that we are called to preach holiness or sanctification, is to get into a side eddy. We are called to proclaim Jesus Christ. The fact that He saves from sin and makes us holy is part of the effect of the wonderful abandonment of God."Your message is needed; don't harden people hearts by replacing respect with rhubarb. Just some thoughts...MC

the more I study the bible the more I feel forced to believe that perfection is the goal, that repenting from all sin is the standard, and that there is absolutely no sin that should be tolerated in the life of the Christian. I too am a preacher of holiness and repentance. Perfection is not a goal but a gift in which the saint goes from 'glory to glory'. It is important to distinguish what kind of perfection we are talking about. Wesley believed in Christian Perfection; so do I. I do not believe we can acquire God's perfection of that of the angels, but we can be just what God wants us to be NOW. and that is perfection. Of course today's perfection may be tomorrow's imperfection as we continue to listen to what God is saying to us. Things that He permitted yesterday He may not permit tomorrow. It is not a 'standard' but a state of relationship with God.If we make it into a describable standard we create another law, and another burden. The word to Abraham stands true; "walk before Me, and be thou perfect." and that from Paul "walk in the Spirit and you will not fulfil the desires of the flesh".The standard is perfection, but whose?

Lazarus1719 wrote:I have a genuine question. What exactly is the Christian standard, or the moral goal? I would expect the Christian standard is to be in a continual state of fellowship with God.One cannot fellowship with God and with sin at the same time - so, in order to fellowship with God, one must be delivered from -all- known sin.Some are teaching that until you have experienced freedom from every known sin you have not repented and are therefore not yet saved. I take umbrage at this particular interpretation because it makes sanctification the doorway into justification.Others teach that at the moment of justification every believer receives the Holy Spirit and that the Holy Spirit immediately begins the ministry of sanctifying the believer - for the expressed purpose of preparing that believer to fellowship with Christ and God.The problem seems to be that modern Christianity is being taught justification by grace through faith - and is leaving out how one is sanctified. The result is that genuine and soundly saved Christians are not being cleansed from their sins because they don't know that they can be cleansed - they remain in Romans seven and 1 John 1:9 - sinning, confessing their sin, and repenting - but never exerting faith to have their hearts cleansed by faith.I don't think that perfection is the goal - rather fellowship with God is the goal, and the more sanctified a believer is, the closer that fellowship can be. If my focus is on perfection itself, it isn't on God - though the distinction may be more technical than experiential.In any case, my greatest concern is that presenting sanctification as the path to justification is not an accurate gospel presentation. When the Christians at Corinth were still carnal Paul encourages them in this way, "Or do you not know that your body is the temple of the Holy Spirit who is in you, whom you have from God, and you are not your own?" (1 Corinthians 6:19) The Spirit doesn't indwell unsaved people. They were carnal - they were not experiencing freedom - but Paul seems to think they were saved - and frankly, so do I.To promote the idea that less mature believers are not saved, is less than charitable. And to put such a stumbling block before them, well, it is less than sinless.Dan/\\/\\/\\

Some are teaching that until you have experienced freedom from every known sin you have not repented and are therefore not yet saved. I take umbrage at this particular interpretation because it makes sanctification the doorway into justification.dann you are right, and we must resist the doctrine of 'justification by sanctification' like the plague!

ignore this i read a post wrong and posted something that had nothing to to with anything sorry... :-P

63 you say?

Hello Lazarus,Here are a few more for your list.What is meant by:I Samuel 15:13And Samuel came to Saul: and Saul said unto him, Blessed be thou of the Lord: I have performed the commandment of the Lord. (For those who might not remember, the Lord said to kill every thing that breathes. Saul did most of what God said but saved the livestock and the King alive).Things didn't go well for Samuel because of his misunderstanding of the true nature of God.King David says in the PsalmsPsalms 18:37,42I have pursued mine enemies, and overtaken them: neither did I turn again till they were consumed.Then did I beat them small as the dust before the wind: I did cast them out as dirt in the streets.The enemies of God and his people in those days were real people.The enemy of God and his people today is sin.We can be like David and fight the enemy tooth and nail with faith that God will give us the victory or we can be like Saul and do a 90% job of it and say I have done the will of the Lord.Isaiah 62:1For Zion's sake will I not hold may peace, and for Jerusalem's sake I will not rest, until the righteousness thereof go forth as brightness, and the salvation therof as a lamp that burneth.Luke 11:34-36The light of the body is the eye: therefore when thine eye is single, thy whole body also is full of light, but when thine eye is evil, thy body is also full of darkness.Take heed therefore that the light which is in thee be not darkness.If the whole body therefore be full of light, having no part dark, the whole shall be full of light, as when the bright shining of a candle doth give thee light. (No part dark).I Thessalonians 2:10Ye are witnesses, and God also, how holily and justily and unblameably we behaved ourselves among you that believe. (Note the realtime holiness Paul describes here).Ephesians 4:27Neither give place to the devil.In another place you ask what is the goal. I believe in my life and all who are called to serve Christ the goal is NO SIN AT ANY TIME, Love , Holiness, Faith. One fellow mentioned knowing God as the goal, that's great but if you are willing to tolerate any sin to lay on the conscience then you are not going to know much at all about God outside of the imaginary version you've made up who is willing to put up with your sins. Right off people will say oh how arrogant to think you can live that way. Well, it is the promise of God and it is our birthright. Not by our own power but by the same power that divided the Red Sea, by the same power that David ran through a troop and lept over a wall, by the same power that raised Jesus from the dead, by that power we can be enabled to live a holy life, if we pray day and night for that grace as counseled by the Lord. Are we going to be like Joshua and Caleb and fight the giants (they would still need to fight even after they made the couragous decision to go into the land) or are we going to be like the the rest of Gods people who said that there is no way to do that, it is impossible, we are grasshoppers in their sight and the cities are walled up to heaven? Gods own people didn't make it the first time around because of their unbelief. It's either time to fight the giants or start picking up stones to stone the fanatics, it's our choice. This is pretty much how it lays in my mind. Thanks a lot for posting your message, it is encouraging and means a lot to me. By the way if anyone disagrees with this that is fine, but please don't presume to teach me something different, something a little more reasonable, a little more compromised, because I don't want to hear it, I've heard enough of it already.To freecd about the writing on holiness by Mclaughlin. Amen.

you are right, and we must resist the doctrine of 'justification by sanctification' like the plague!Amen!

In another place you ask what is the goal. I believe in my life and all who are called to serve Christ the goal is NO SIN AT ANY TIME, Love , Holiness, Faith. One fellow mentioned knowing God as the goal, that's great but if you are willing to tolerate any sin to lay on the conscience then you are not going to know much at all about God outside of the imaginary version you've made up who is willing to put up with your sins. Right off people will say oh how arrogant to think you can live that way.I don't see this thinking as arrogance, but ignorance. Not only that, but there is an almost bizarre preoccupation with 'sinlessness' when the true goal as that we walk in the Spirit with a clear conscience. This I will ask those who are teach these things; which of you walk absolutely in your teaching? How many are sinless? I will hear you out. I am not interested in any more theories, I want to hear from someone who is walking in perpetual holiness before God in a totally sinless state. I see all the questions, but I want to see and hear the evidence! Jesus asked once, "Which one of you convinceth me of sin?" Can anyone here boast of such a statement just in the last year? Can anyone say they have not sinned in the last year? I am big on Christian Perfection myself- but I am under absolutely no illusions of my need for the blood of Jesus Christ. Anyone hear not need the blood any more?

For all of the ranting and raving about how other Christians are guilty of opposing holiness, this is the pertinent question.I want to hear from someone who is walking in perpetual holiness before God in a totally sinless state. I see all the questions, but I want to see and hear the evidence! Jesus asked once, "Which one of you convinceth me of sin?" Can anyone here boast of such a statement just in the last year?...Anyone here not need the blood any more?The silence is deafening...

Oh the silence... but I hear the voice of the blood crying for MERCY!Nothing But The BloodWhat can wash away my sin? Nothing but the blood of Jesus. What can make me whole again? Nothing but the blood of Jesus. Oh! precious is the flow, that makes me white as snow; No other fount I know, nothing but the blood of Jesus. For my pardon, this I see, Nothing but the blood of Jesus; For my cleansing this my plea, Nothing but the blood of Jesus. Nothing can for sin atone, Nothing but the blood of Jesus; naught of good that I have done, nothing but the blood of Jesus. This is all my hope and peace, nothing but the blood of Jesus; this is all my righteousness, nothing but the blood of Jesus. Now by this I’ll overcome— Nothing but the blood of Jesus, Now by this I’ll reach my home— Nothing but the blood of Jesus. Glory! Glory! This I sing— Nothing but the blood of Jesus, All my praise for this I bring— Nothing but the blood of Jesus.

Anyone hear not need the blood any more?I conclude that I need Christ's more than I need my own.

David Wilkerson does point out about I John 1:7But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.That is mercy and truth have met together. He does point out that walking in the light is needed in order to benefit from the blood of Jesus. A Jew roaming around in the street on the night of passover in Egypt would have surely died for disobeying Gods word tho the blood was on his house.(EDIT The part about the roaming Jew is from me and not from Wilkerson and in fact may be wrong. However this does not change the above stated principle). I make no claim to sinlessness and I am still trying to define holiness, but I do believe that God honours the soul who abhors evil and by faith in his promises fights a daily war with sin unto victory. One thing is certain, if a person genuinely believes the Gospel they will be transformed from glory to glory overcoming every sinful thing that stands in the way. Didn't Moses say No man shall be able to stand against you? About the justified by sanctification thing, it boggles my mind how anybody could believe anything different after reading all the parables which point to that very thing.Also concerning the bizarre preoccupation with sinlessness. I can't fathom how anybody could want any thing less than No Sin At Any Time after reading "The soul that sinneth, it shall die" and in I John 3:8 where it says "He that committeth sin is of the devil". Having a goal of being sinless doesn't seem the least bit bizarre to me.

Hi npautsky,About the justified by sanctification thing, it boggles my mind how anybody could believe anything different after reading all the parables which point to that very thing.Can you please show us which parable teaches justification by sancification?The way I've always understood it, I'm positionaly, and judicially justified by the substitutionary sacrifice of Jesus Christ.I don't think any of us disagree on the need to live holy lives, but on how we do such a thing and the purpose of it.In Christ,Jeremy Hulsey

Hello,Lets look at the Parable of the Sower in Matthew 13:18-23. First things first, these are the words of Jesus Christ and by the very nature of things they take precedent over any of the epistles and so forth. That is the statements of Paul and the Apostles need to be filtered through what Jesus taught. For we can be sure the words of Jesus were in the forefront of their minds when they were teaching other things.I said lets look at Matthew's version but if you take all three versions of the parable of the sower, you come up with 8 warnings, 8 things that will stop you from bearing fruit.1. Temptation2. Affliction because of the word.3. Tribulation because of the word.4. Persecution because of the word.5. Cares of this world.6. Lust for other things.7. Deceitfulness of riches.8. Pleasures of this life.BEARING FRUITJesus told the Jews that the kingdom of God would be taken from them and given to them bearing the fruits therof.Romans 8:22But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life.Colossians 1: 5,6For the hope which is laid up for you in heaven, whereof ye heard before in the word of truth of the Gospel; Which is come unto you as it is in all the world; and bringeth forth fruit, as it doth also in you since the day ye heard it , and knew the grace of God in truth.The Parable of the Sower and Jesus talking to the Jews about fruit and Paul in Romans and in Colossians are all hitting on the same subject. We can call it many things but Fruit unto Holiness seems to be a reasonable way to define what each text is talking about. I mean Righteousness and Holiness is what the Gospel is about isn't it? Turning from the power of satan and sin unto the power of God and righteousness.The 8 things Jesus teaches above encompasses just about all unholy ways of living.Jesus clearly said if a man hears his words and does them his house will stand(Salvation). But if he hears his words and does them not his house shall fall(Hell).Take the oil in the lamp or the wicked servant whose master is gone on a long journey or the men given the talents to occupy until he comes or the wise and foolish virgins.(Correction Edit- The oil in the lamp and the foolish virgins are in the same story and were mistakenly separated).These all speak to born again baptised in the Spirit Christians who know about the blood of Jesus and faith and all the teachings of Paul and the apostles. Yet even so they are warnings to live holy, to be faithful servants to the Lord. For what do faithful servants of a Holy God do? The Grace of God that brings salvation to all men has appeared teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts we should live soberly, righteously and godly , in this present world.Titus 2:11,12It is foolish quote Paul in Ephesians saying For by grace are ye saved though faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works lest any man should boast. To take that and then to ignore Jesus warning not to build your house on sand because that might be a self justifying work of the flesh. My how satan has twisted things over the years. He is just like a lawyer once something is in print and unchangable then they can go to work with their wordsmithing, twisting this, and subtly changing that, until the whole spirit of what is said is lost. I believe this is pretty much the case of modern Christendom. The whole thing has been confused by some silly acceptance prayer that is suppose to put a smiling picture of Jesus on your heart so that when God looks at you he doesn't see any of your evil works but only Jesus smilin face, at least thats the way Keith Green put it and I think he is right about that part.What do the parables mean to you, how do you read them? They all look like strong directives to holy living to me to which the failing to obey brings destruction to the foolish.I have no idea how many theological toes I am stepping on here. I know the word of God is true and that satan has succeeded in introducing many lies into what we call protestant Christianity today, to the point where people will blindly accept many arguments that clearly contradict the word of God but by some means of intellectual mental gymnastics they are able to believe all kinds of foolish unscriptural things.Hope this sheds a little light on what I was saying about only the sanctified being justified.

The silence is deafening...I want to raise my voice to say that Jesus Christ is a perfect Saviour, and able to do all that He has promised to do. I do not hold with testimonies to 'entire sanctification' but I know many who bear witness to Entire Sanctifier.

I don't think any of us disagree on the need to live holy lives, but on how we do such a thing and the purpose of it.Agreed. To argue as if some of us don't believe in the need to live as holy is shadow boxing. The tone of this thread shouldn't be confrontation, but contemplation. Lets look at the Parable of the Sower in Matthew 13:18-23. First things first, these are the words of Jesus Christ and by the very nature of things they take precedent over any of the epistles and so forth. That is the statements of Paul and the Apostles need to be filtered through what Jesus taught.I have no idea how many theological toes I am stepping on here...Brother, the only theological toes I don't care to step on are those of Jesus. I fear your statement reveals a basic misapprehension in the divine authority of the epistles inspired by Him. I do not say this to hurt or belittle, but to encourage. It is a grievous error to assume that the words of Jesus are after all more important, and therefore more binding, than the words of the Apostles. I believe it is worth taking a small detour before looking at the parables, to address this serious misconception, because nothing less then a full understanding of Gods' plan for salvation is at stake. First things first indeed!About a hundred years ago some bible publisher came up with the marketing idea of printing in red ink all of the words that Jesus spoke as the God-Man through his human larynx. Although this seemed like a reverent idea, true reverence would call for the entire bible to be printed in red ink. Consider Jesus' promise to the apostles. Jesus spoke to his disciples just before His suffering and crucifixion. (John 14,15, 16 Among the instructions which Jesus gave to the apostles, was a pre-authentication of the entire New Testament. John 14:26 and John 16:13 are the key passages. In those two portions of Scripture Jesus promised that He would send the Holy Spirit who will do three things: a) "bring to your remembrance all that / have said to you"--that is, events associated with the life and death of Christ as we find them in the Gospel accounts. b) "will teach you (explain to you) all things"-that is, the Holy Spirit will give you an interpretation of the divine and historical facts as we find them in the Epistles.c) "will show you things to come"--that is, the Holy Spirit will show the great events associated with the end of the age, as we find them in the Revelation. Jesus promised these things to His apostles just before His death, resurrection, and ascension into heaven. And so the New Testament is not a record based on the fallible memories or theology of the human apostles, but the entire New Testament contains the Truth which is a revelation of the infallible Holy Spirit. This promise of the Holy Spirit's oversight includes the epistles of Paul. Jesus said to the apostles, just before He ascended into Heaven, that what they recorded would be superintended by the divine Comforter, the Holy Spirit. Thus what the apostles wrote was pre-authenticated by Jesus. The Apostle Paul himself claims divine inspiration from Jesus for his writings. The Gospel which Paul preached was not of human origin, but it was received directly from the Lord. He says, "For I would have you know that the gospel which was preached by me, is not according to man. For I neither received it from man, nor was I taught it, but I received it through a revelation of Jesus Christ" (Galatians 1:11-12). This is an emphatic statement which insists that Paul's message is completely divine in nature. He received it as a direct revelation from Christ, not as a tradition handed down from the past. Another aspect of Paul's own testimony is found in 1 Thessalonians 2:13. In the first letter Paul ever wrote to a new congregation, he thanked God that the message he preached was accepted "not as the word of men, but as it is in truth, the word of God." Paul was conscious of the fact that the authority by which he spoke was divinely imparted. In 1 Corinthians 14:37. The testimony of Paul is this: "The things which I write to you are the commandments of the Lord." That is a strongly worded statement, that everything he taught about God, about the Gospel, and about the church--was God's own teaching. The things which I write unto you, says Paul, are the commandments of the Lord. Notice that Peter (2 Peter 3:16) considered the letters of Paul a part of the "scriptures"--the God-inspired sacred writings. And Peter refers to those who quibbled about the authority of Paul's writings as being spiritually illiterate and undependable! This is an important insight which tells how the early church viewed the writings of Paul and the other apostles. Paul's letters were placed on a par with "the other scriptures." What Paul had to say was accepted as the Word of God. Christian writings (including Paul's letters) were being read in churches (alongside the Old Testament), and these were rated as equal in value to the Psalms, the Pentateuch, and the Prophets. Let's return back to "Jesus'" words. How is it that we have the words he spoke? Jesus didn't write or publish anything per se. In fact the gospels that carry his words, bear the name of their authors Matther, Mark, Luke and John. Matthew and John became apostles, while Mark and Luke were Paul's helpers. It is important to know how these men were able to write what they wrote.Obviously they heard many of Jesus' saying themselves, or wrote down first hand accounts. But there are examples where even Jesus' human words were revealed directly by the Holy Spirit---not by Jesus the man. For example, there is no way that anyone could humanly ever know the words that Jesus prayed in the Garden of Gethsemane-- because the disciples were asleep--and no one else was around. The words, "Father, I pray, Remove this cup from me" [Luke 22:42] had to be revealed to the New Testament writers by direct revelation. The bottom line is that Jesus would have us esteem all of scripture as His word, including the witness of Peter, and the testimony of Paul. If we don't, we may find ourselves struggling to rest within an incomplete gospel. What the epistles convey to the church is indeed the words of Christ, and we had better learn and preach all of it. MC(Notes from Harold S. Martin)

Hello,Happy Resurrection Day.Of course every word between Genesis and Revelation is divinely inspired and should be given full weight as the holy word of God.Nevertheless I will stand by what I've already said. You are free to disagree.

About a hundred years ago some bible publisher came up with the marketing idea of printing in red ink all of the words that Jesus spoke as the God-Man through his human larynx. Although this seemed like a reverent idea, true reverence would call for the entire bible to be printed in red ink.Amen!! I sometimes ask the question when preaching; "do you have one of those bibles with the words of Jesus in red?". and then add "...I have a bible where all the words of the Holy Spirit are in black!"

About the justified by sanctification thing, it boggles my mind how anybody could believe anything different after reading all the parables which point to that very thing....only the sanctified being justified. You seem to be predicating justification upon our santification. To address this I feel it important to note one of my favorite rules when reading scripture: let the explicit explain the implicit. Having said that, let me respect your request and consider the Parable of the Sower and how it might relate to the issue of whether we are Justified according to the measure of our Sanctification.The Parable of the Sower is given in Matthew chapter 13: 1-9. Matthews' overarching theme is that Jesus is the promised Jewish messianic king. This is vital to our discussion because we cannot approach Jesus as a mere teacher who founded Christianity...He is the foundation of Christianity. You say we should not ignore Jesus' warning about foolishly building our house upon sand? Then build your house upon the rock. Not only did he fulfill the messianic promises, but he also fulfilled the failed lives of those before him. From His geneology we see he is the promised King to restore and sit on Davids failed throne. He proved to be the perfect Israel that passed the test in the desert, where the historic Israel failed their test. We could go on, but my point is that Jesus did not come only to lay righteous expectations upon us. Any prophet could have done that. Jesus came to lay righteous foundations under us.Not just us but all those before us who put their hope in Him. Abraham, Moses, and David were all justified by the atonement of Jesus Christ. This is the significance of Matthew's gospel! Matthew is saying..."Rejoice brothers for this is He whom the scriptures foretold. Rejoice Israel for in Jesus all of the promises of God are fulfilled!"The Parable of the Sower is explained in Matthew 13:18-23. The seed is Jesus' word that falls on three types of hearts; the stony unyielding heart, the thorny unstable heart, and the soft embracing heart. By boiling this parable down to 8 universal ways we can fall away you have cut out the heart of the parable. Jesus is asking which heart category are you in? For instance, by grace I am in the soft heart category...I heard the Word and understood it and began producing fruit. (Of course, in Jesus' time, many Jews were sadly in the stony heart category...even so Jesus is merciful to them. Israel's rejection was not final. Romans 11)I believe we find an application of the Parable of the Sower in Hebrews 6:7-12. The Land that drinks in the rain often falling on it and that produces a crop useful to those for whom it is farmed receives the blessing of God. But land that produces thorns and thistles is worthless and is in danger of being cursed. In the end it will be burned.Clearly we should learn what this sober metaphor actually means. Lord let us be that land that drinks in the rain! What is this "crop useful to those for whom it is farmed" referring to? What follows is not more cryptic mystery, but something simple and very assurring.Even though we speak like this, dear friends, we are confident of better things in your case–things that accompany salvation. God is not unjust; he will not forget your work and the love you have shown him as you have helped his people and continue to help them. We want each of you to show this same diligence to the very end, in order to make your hope sure. We do not want you to become lazy, but to imitate those who through faith and patience inherit what has been promised. In this case, the crop is love for the saints. Here is an example of "faith with works". Do we claim to Love Jesus? Then we should feed His sheep! (Ezekial 34, John 21)If we are to have a preoccupation that demonstrates Love for Jesus, it isn't merely "sinlessness" but it is love for His flock! Even if it means persecution or death.It is at this point that I must point out we have overlooked an important ingredient in both scriptures; namely the rain. For an understanding of what the rain is we can look to the promise of Isaiah 44. For I will pour water on the thirsty land, and streams on the dry ground; I will pour out my Spirit on your offspring, and my blessing on your descendants. They will spring up like grass in a meadow, like poplar trees by flowing streams. One will say, 'I belong to the LORD ';another will call himself by the name of Jacob; still another will write on his hand, 'The LORD's,' and will take the name Israel.You see, true Justification and sanctification is a promise from the Lord garanteed with the deposit of His Spirit in us. We can not think that works or fruit make us holy. If you won't believe Paul, maybe you'll believe John Wesley. This is from a sermon he gave at Oxford called "The Almost Christian.""I did for many years, as many of this place can testify; using diligence to eschew all evil, and to have a conscience void of offence; redeeming the time; buying up every opportunity of doing all good to all men; constantly and carefully using all the public and private means of grace; endeavoring, after a steady seriousness of behavior, at all times, and in all places: and God is my record, before whom I stand, doing all this in sincerity; having a real design to serve God; a hearty desire to do His will in all things; to please Him who had called me to "fight the good fight," and to "lay hold on eternal life." Yet my own conscience bears me witness, in the Holy Ghost, that all this time I was but almost a Christian."May we thus all experience what it is, to be not only almost, but altogether Christians! Being justified freely by His grace, through the redemption that is in Jesus: knowing we have peace with God through Jesus Christ: rejoicing in hope of the glory of God, and having the love of God shed abroad in our hearts, by the Holy Ghost given to us!"I have looked at the Parable of the Sower and I feel satisfied that it is not a tool of dispair but of encouragement by the Holy Spirit. It is designed to let us identify the presence and work of the Holy Spirit in our lives. So, here is the conclusion I draw regarding the Parable of the Sower: We shouldn't presume to curse the ground, but instead cherish the seed, share the existing fruit, and above all, pray for more rain.Blessings,MC

Hello,Parable of the SowerStony Ground - Endures for awhile but when these things come they fall away:TemptationAffliction because of the wordTribulation because of the wordPersecution because of the wordThorny Ground - These go forth,I believe professing Christ, but these things choke out the word:Lust for other thingsCares of this worldPleasures of this lifeDeceitfulness of richesThere is much, much, much more here than the oversimplified version you mentioned earlier. Stony unyeilding heart and the thorny unstable heart. That rendering doesn't really allow the plow of the word to dig deep and break up the clods of the heart as Finney says.I believe in justification by faith, by living faith, but much of what passes for the Gospel nowadays is nothing more than trash having no power to justify. The seed in the parable of the sower is the word of God. That seed will bring forth fruit 100% of the time given the soil,light and moisture are also good. When someone recieves the Gospel with a right heart they are justified by faith like Paul teaches.The problem is nowadays most people aren't recieving the Gospel at all, but a Man Pleasing counterfeit that goes by the same name. The counterfeit version makes allowances for most of the things in the parable of the sower and the other parables as well. It says, Do you have a problem with temptation, no problem we all sin every day. Lust for other things, Well, God does want us to enjoy life doesn't he? Deceitfulness of riches, hardly touched on as people accept Christ and supposedly recieve assurance of eternal salvation. This Gospel is unable to justify because it is not the word of God,it is mans version of the word of God, worthless, contemptible, powerless to change. Gods word is indeed difficult and if one looks over the parable of the sower and is lead to despair of his or her salvation because they realize they aren't living up to what God said, then praise God, they are on the road to repentance and believing the Gospel. You mentioned that you thought that I might be saying these things with calculation to stir up Gods people unto good works. I simply see these things as the starting place to following the Jesus of the Bible. In saying this, I would like to say something about Grace. I believe whole heartedly in being saved by grace from start to finish. I believe it is nothing but God's grace that puts it in the heart to seek to know him. While we are on the parables, let me say this. If a person reads through them and realizes that they are in fact loaded up with sins but they recieve the word and receive a love for the truth then no matter how much open outright sin they struggle with daily they will come through it because the seed of the word of God is good and always bears fruit in the right soil. Also the Lord is very gentle with those that receive him, so gentle as not to break a bruised reed and not to quench a smoking flax. No matter how many struggles a person has with sin, if they will hold on to faith in Christ he will help them to overcome. Jesus also said blessed are those that mourn, because if you are mourning over your own sinfulness then you are on the right path if your faith is in him to overcome. But woe unto them that do evil that put light for darkness and darkness for light, those who do violence to the law (would be Gospel nowadays). Woe be to those who incorporate their lusts into their faith, woe be to those that incorporate sinfulness into their faith. It is a dead faith having no saving power. You said somewhere in your message that I thought justification by faith was just a crafty plot by the devil to fool the saints. I know thats not exactly what you said but I can't find it now. But you hit the nail on the head. I believe what passes for justification by faith nowadays for the majority of professing Christians is in fact a crafty plot by the devil.Blessed be the name of the Lord for his great mercy toward us all in giving us the Gospel of his Son Jesus Christ.God bless.

There is much, much, much more here than the oversimplified version you mentioned earlier. Stony unyeilding heart and the thorny unstable heart. That rendering doesn't really allow the plow of the word to dig deep and break up the clods of the heart as Finney says.Finney is right to an extent in his concept of stirring up the fallow ground, however, once a person has gotten back to the love they had a first for God it is time to walk with God and allow the Holy Ghost to do the searching and convicting. My problem with Finney's theology and the reason I will fight it to the death is because it militates against the cross of Christ and places the work in the hands of the man instead of in the hands of God where it belongs. If you read his works enough you will find that NO ONE would ever make it to heaven based on his theology. Not even Finney would make it based on Finney's version of Justification. Finney needed the blood as much as us. He was saved because of the blood- not his own obedience.How is man perfected? "For by one offering He hath perfected forever them that are sanctified" (Hebrews 10:14) The question then becomes; who are the 'sanctified?' Once we know that we then might ask; 'can a person forfeit their sanctification?' Because the passage clearly states that by the blood of Christ the sanctified are perfected forever. The problem is nowadays most people aren't recieving the Gospel at all, but a Man Pleasing counterfeit that goes by the same name. The counterfeit version makes allowances for most of the things in the parable of the sower and the other parables as well. It says, Do you have a problem with temptation, no problem we all sin every day. Lust for other things, Well, God does want us to enjoy life doesn't he? Deceitfulness of riches, hardly touched on as people accept Christ and supposedly recieve assurance of eternal salvation.There is no doubt that the message preached today is often in error. Yet, a Gospel of legalism is equally error and will level anathama on the head of the preacher. We cannot have a mixture of law and grace any more than we can have a mixture of worldliness and grace. They are opposite errors, but both are error. The remedy is not to try to balance the scales by going into extreme legalism and fighting against God's grace. The answer is to preach a 'real Gospel' that will meet people where they are and set them free from Sin and set them on a course to love God with all their heart and their neighbor as themselves. No matter how many struggles a person has with sin, if they will hold on to faith in Christ he will help them to overcome. Jesus also said blessed are those that mourn, because if you are mourning over your own sinfulness then you are on the right path if your faith is in him to overcome. But woe unto them that do evil that put light for darkness and darkness for light, those who do violence to the law (would be Gospel nowadays).I believe a person can walk in perpetual victory over besetting sins. I can personally testify to God doing it in our lives. But this is a million miles from true perfection and holiness. I have ministered victory over sin all of my Christian life. Where I have a problem is when Entire Sanctification is made the qualification for our name being written in the book. What if one of us were snapped out into eternity and was just in an argument that did not please the Lord; are we damned? Do we cease to be a child of God when we miss the mark? Now, I would certainly not want to die living in any of the sins of the flesh. But, what about other things that don't please God? What about things we do and we are hardened in them? You said somewhere in your message that I thought justification by faith was just a crafty plot by the devil to fool the saints. I know thats not exactly what you said but I can't find it now. But you hit the nail on the head. I believe what passes for justification by faith nowadays for the majority of professing Christians is in fact a crafty plot by the devil.It is odd that in the writings of Paul he addresses legalism with more fury than license. He said he wished that the teachers of law were even "cut off that trouble you." What did he mean by that? Did he mean accursed from Christ? That is strong language. At the end of the day we have to let the Holy Ghost be the Holy Ghost. He will convince of Sin. He will convict. And when He convicts we must repent. He will put His finger on things. But I do not believe Christians should be overly occupied with digging around to find more and more sin in their life. When was the last time anyone reading this thread repented for not having the 'joy' of the Lord? When was the last time anyone repented for not having the 'peace' of God? If you spend your days trying to be the Holy Ghost you will have neither joy or peace. In closing let me say that I grew up under a "Finney type" theology (a form of Oberlin). I know what it is to hear preaching and teaching that says if you were killed doing 56 miles per hour in a 55 mile per hour zone you would be in hell. As a child of 8 and 9 years old I would confess my sins in trembling at the hell fire preaching. As a result I never knew God as a loving God. I only ever knew Him as a God who was looking for a reason to damn my soul- rather than one who died to save it. I was the victim of a lot of really bad theology and I still have it flowing in my veins. The old saying is "No sin will enter heaven." I have heard that till I'm sick. Duh! If no sin enters heaven it will not be because I was righteous, but it will be because the blood cleansed it! The blood was sprinkled on everything in heaven and going 'into' heaven. Personally I am walking in the greatest level of victory over sin in all my Christian life; but I am under no illusions to my need for the blood. I need the blood and so do you. Preach the blood. Preach the cross. Anyone here believe they could stand in the presense of God right this moment without the blood? How about if we give you 6 months to get your act together? You would be smote dead in an instant without the blood and that will never change. Do I believe in holiness? More than you will ever know. has 'Finney's' theology gotten me there? Absolutely not. All it ever did was cause me to fear my condition while God was molding me into His image. I wish I had knew then that the rough edges were covered by the blood. My Christian life had been a lot more pleasant and those who knew me would have know a lot more joyful and peacful Christian. instead they saw 10 years of a long face and few smiles.God Bless,-Robert

Hello again,It is a grievous error to assume that the words of Jesus are after all more important, and therefore more binding, than the words of the ApostlesWithout going into any long explanation of what I was saying and with the assurance that I am not trying to promote some rigid doctrine on how to interpret the bible, Here are a few scriptures that seem at least a little to bolster up what I was saying.Mark 4:13And he said unto them, Know ye not this parable? and how then will ye know all parables? Matthew 23:23Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier matters of the law, judgment, mercy, and faith: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone.Deuteronomy 4:9,10Only take heed to thyself, and keep thy soul diligently, lest thou forget the things which thine eyes have seen, and lest they depart from thy heart all the days of thy life: but teach them thy sons, and thy sons' sons; 10 SPECIALLY the day that thou stoodest before the LORD thy God in Horeb, when the LORD said unto me, Gather me the people together, and I will make them hear my words, that they may learn to fear me all the days that they shall live upon the earth, and that they may teach their children. The Parable of the Sower is foundational to understanding the other parables and like I was saying even to understanding the rest of the Bible. Jesus rated understanding and living out Judgement, Mercy, and Faith more important than tithing tho he didn't say tithing wasn't important. Moses counseled Israel to pay attention to how they lived and what they had seen of the hand of the Lord, but to pay especially close attention to the day when the Lord talked to them on the mount. Here's an afterthought. Maybe we should pay especially close attention this time around when the Lord talked to us on the mount... The Sermon on the Mount.Simply put, I am saying that it might not be such a bad idea to keep the parables in mind when studying the justification doctrines of the Apostles.

Hello,How is man perfected? "For by one offering He hath perfected forever them that are sanctified" (Hebrews 10:14) The question then becomes; who are the 'sanctified?' Once we know that we then might ask; 'can a person forfeit their sanctification?' Because the passage clearly states that by the blood of Christ the sanctified are perfected forever. Hebrews 10:29Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace? Just a casual observation, please don't hold me to a rigourous scrutinizing of this but, could it be that God has both made a way for a man to be sanctified forever if he so chooses and because of mans freewill also to be able to forfeit his eternal sanctification if he so chooses? I don't want to run this into the ground but it sure fits hand in glove with what Jesus taught about the stony/thorny soil in the parable. The stony soil person infact endured for a while and while he chose to abide in Christ he must have been sanctified until later testing came upon him. The parable speaks so much more of a process to me than of a one time prayer of faith. Actually I guess I believe that the one time prayer of faith is just the beginning of a persons salvation and if they endure until the end then they shall be saved.Though anytime along the path they can know that they are saved if they believe in the cleansing blood of Jesus and are obeying the Gospel. I do believe obedience is necessary, I do not believe that the blood of Jesus will ever sanctify disobedience.Romans 6:17But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you. Please be patient with my comments as my understanding of many of these things is also imperfect.

Please be patient with my comments as my understanding of many of these things is also imperfect.Me too brother. Considering the deep level of scriptural understanding shown in these forums, I feel a little underdressed when I show up.Frankly I appreciate your approach to discussing matters. You were willing to talk openly about Justification being tied to Sanctification even though you knew it may not be popular. There are too many people who have the same thoughts you do who try to express themselves through the code of grace. Their approach only breeds confusion. You and Finney share a common integrity...you aren't stealthy in what you are saying. Regarding your exhortation to study the Parables of Jesus. May I listen to you all the more on this subject dear brother! You would have my feet on solid ground. The parables teach us about the Kingdom of which I am glad to be a citizen! I know Christians who worship a sacrificial lamb that never needed to have reach manhood and preached at all. For them, it would be sufficient if the baby Jesus flew straight away from His manger in Bethlehem to Golgotha to be nailed in swaddling clothes on the cross for our sins! There are sadly too many Christians who have little interest in Jesus' words of eternal life, only His precious blood.You also observed correctly to me...The problem is nowadays most people aren't recieving the Gospel at all, but a Man Pleasing counterfeit that goes by the same name. The counterfeit version makes allowances for most of the things in the parable of the sower and the other parables as well. Amen. Yet, there is another side to this wooden nickel! With many zealous advocates for "holiness" I sincerely wonder, if there is a line crossed from religous legalism into rank unbelief of the gospel. The old wineskin has a hard time with the new wine. Not that I presume to identify the wheat from the tares but there are basically two counterfeit gospels. A self-fulfillment Gospel that secretly opposes holiness (Colossians 3:1-5) and a self-justification gospel that secretly opposes grace.(Colossians 2:11-20) There are many debtors' religions, like Finneys' for instance, that remind me of what they used to say about the little dirt-water town I grew up in; "It ain't hell, but you can see it from there.""Whenever he (The Christian) sins, he must, for the time being, cease to be holy. This is self-evident. Whenever he sins, he must be condemned; he must incur the penalty of the law of God ... The Christian, therefore, is justified no longer than he obeys, and must be condemned when he disobeys or Antinomianism is true ...In these respects, then, the sinning Christian and the unconverted sinner are upon precisely the same ground (Systematic Theology p. 46).""The substitutional atonement "assumes that the atonement was a literal payment of a debt, which we have seen does not consist with the nature ofthe atonement ... It is true, that the atonement, of itself, does not securethe salvation of any one" p.217)."""But for sinners to be forensically pronounced just, is impossible and absurd... As we shall see, there are many conditions, while there is but one ground, of the justification of sinners ... As has already been said, therecan be no justification in a legal or forensic sense, but upon the ground ofuniversal, perfect, and uninterrupted obedience to law. (pg. 320)"One thing about I have to admit about Finney is that he wanted to stir up good works. You know, I think that is true of many who are called to be evangelists and prophets. Perhaps they are good balances to those gifted in teaching, for whom correct belief is so paramount, that some are tempted to overlook correct action. Yet, many evangelists and propheticaly gifted brothers should be mindful to submit their spirit to the spirit of Truth, and preach ALL of the law, including the promise. (Luke 24:44, Gal.4:21) Otherwise, in their zeal to see good works they may censor the the Holy Spirit, giving birth to bondage and not faith. Though we are eager to see fruit, Jesus warned us that the seed would fall on different soils.Speaking of the Sower Parable...There is much, much, much more here than the oversimplified version you mentioned earlier. I agree. My problem is that I am so worried about creating gigantic lengthy posts (like this one) that I strive to simplify things. I don't want to burden you with hours of reading! If you and I were to ever sit down and discuss this parable over a cup of coffee I think we would find much more to agree on then disagree. In fact, I apologize if I seemed harsh on your rendering of this parable. But our two perceptions do reveal some basic theological differences and perhaps personal experiences. You see, I cannot help but believe that the reason you and I are like the soft soil is because of the grace of God. The two ingredients that constituted life in me are His...the Seed and the Rain. If I were the stony soil, I simply could not care to become otherwise. The natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; nor can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned" (1 Cor. 2:14).Only the fertile soil, with it's stones and thorns plowed by the Word, cares to stay fertile. I did not recieve the Spirit by my works, but by the hearing of faith. (Gal. 3)This is where Finney and I will have to part ways...I believe salvation is born from the Holy Spirit's initiative and not mans. Do I believe in free will? I am responsible to obey the Spirit; without whose power I am left with empty philosophy and maddening principles. Yet, when the Holy Spirit convinces me of sin, and calls me to repent, I am grateful and eager to act by the power of conviction before I quench the precious presence of my Lord. That is what Isaiah 44 meant to me...There is life only because the Holy Spirt rains down on my heart. I have no illusions about my fleshly ability to be "fruitful in every good work." (Col.1)This is the spirit in which I see all the parables. Jesus says that we will know a tree by it's fruit. Well, I don't imagine that an apple tree can decide to produce oranges, even if the farmer hates apples and wants oranges. Only an orange tree can produce oranges. Jesus said we will know the tree by it's fruit, which is not at all the same as saying that a particular tree can produce different kinds of fruit, according to it's zeal. If I, as an apple tree am able to bear oranges, it's because that which had been born from an apple seed has died and been removed by the plower, so that the sower could plant an orange tree seed in it's place! Praise God!Likewise with the virgins and the lamps. I don't imagine the lamps to be full of my virtuous works...we are told to keep our lamps full or to go and buy from those who sell. I think that is referring to those prophets and apostles who foretold of Christ. (1 Peter 1:10) We are to let their message fill our hearts with a divine fuel for light. The oil is the filling of the Holy Spirit who therefore bears witness that I am a child of God and empowers me to live as that child. (1 Peter 1:13) He annoints me with the power and encouragement of His Spirit in the presence of my enemy. (Let's get that cup of coffee to really discuss this...)I fear all of this may sound loathesome to you. Just know that I am not advocating "empty believism." You and I are comrads in arms, shoulder to shoulder in opposition to those who preach dead intellectual claims will save men from the wrath of God. I am saying that to be saved from death unto life we must be born of water and of the Spirit. The water cleans the outside to be sure...which is pleasing to men---but the Spirit cleanses the inside which is pleasing to God.In closing, I appreciate the sincerity of our conversation. We are discussing the most important subject matter! Your questions have already helped me to grow in my love for the parables. There is so much to learn, that a million years from now we will still be in awe and marvel over the mystery of the Gospel made known to us. They say that conflict produces friendship. I know our "conflict" was slight but I hope our friendship will grow. If you actually read this whole thing, then I really do owe you a cup of coffee!Blessings brother,MC

Hello, Thanks for your kind words, they are greatly appreciated. Thanks for the generous offer of your friendship-Accepted. Looks like we may have some conflicts in understandings, but certaintly not in personalities. I guess I am about out of things to say today, except that you need to chalk me up for 2 cups of coffee because I read your post twice.God bless

Thanks!I'll tell you the truth. This conversation has been really good for me. You have given me so much to think about; my spirit is still churning. In this life or the next we'll share those cups of coffee brother!During the course of our conversation I came across a great book called Jesus: An Intimate Portrait of the Man, His Land, and His people. (It's a novel based on the harmonized gospels.) I picked it up mainly because our conversation has renewed my interest in the record of Jesus' teachings and earthly ministry. I plan on reading it alongside the actual gospels to get some fresh bread... Discussing scriptures like this reminds me of when I play basketball. My actual skill level never matches the fantasy in my own head but I sure do love the exercise and fellowship! Even if all of my shots are bricks and my passes are out of bounds, I enjoy the opportunity to work my flabby muscles!Blessings,MC

Hello All,I have came thus far, I am going to press this matter home. I don't know what most of you people think about what I've been saying. If I had my guess I would imagine that most of you just shake your heads and maybe even pray for me. Maybe one or two hear what I am saying. For any of the few that may take me seriously, I hope what follows will help convince you that I am telling you the truth.A little over 25 years ago I had a dream. I had been baptized in the Holy Ghost just about a year at the time. One night I had been on my knees praying to God for about 3 or 4 hours earnestly seeking Gods face. I went to bed and had this dream.I was in a room alone sitting on the floor when I saw a little white kitten coming toward me. It was right at that age when they are 5 or 6 inches long. It was so white, so gentle looking and so innocent looking. This impression was a big part of the dream, a cute cuddly innocent looking little white kitten was walking toward me.My hand was laying palm down on the floor in front of me. The little innocent looking kitten came closer and went to reach out its little paw and put it on the back of my hand. Right at that moment I heard a voice that I can only describe as the Spirit of God say "This kitten is evil". As I was saying I had been saved about a year and at that time in my life I had come up with a method of dealing with evil. Every time I would have any kind of problem at all, I would say the name JESUS. So here is what happened, the little kitten walked up close to me and went to put its little paw on the back of my hand, and having just been told that the kitten was evil, I said the name of JESUS. Then there appeared what seemed to be a sheet of glass between the back of my hand and the kittens little paw, its paw just slid off the glasslike barrier that had appeared on the back of my hand. Well, then it started all over. The little kitten approached me again and went to put its paw on the back of my hand and I heard the voice say "This kitten is evil". The exact same thing happened again. As the kitten went to put its paw on the back of my hand I said Jesus and the glass shield again appeared on my hand and the kittens paw slid off without ever touching my hand at all. Twice it happened like that, exactly the same. Now for the third time this little white kitten is approaching me, it reaches out its paw to touch the back of my hand, but something was different this time. Instead of hearing a voice saying "This kitten is evil" I found myself right in the middle of thinking " How could this little, innocent looking kitten be evil?" The little white innocent looking kitten immediately changed into the face of a loud, large, roaring lion. The face of the lion was so big that it filled my whole field of vision and the roar was so loud that immediately I awoke from my dream.I know this was a genuine dream from God.The meaning was clear to me. Satan cannot touch you if you listen to and obey JESUS. If the Holy Ghost, or my conscience, or the Bible tell me something is evil, no matter how innocent or seemingly insignificant or harmless that it may seem, It is wise to listen, regardless of appearances. A fool trusts in his own heart. The little kitten was one and the same as the roaring lion, and of course the roaring lion was our adversary the devil walking about seeking whom he may devour.This dream teaches nothing the bible doesn't already teach. We had all better be careful about sin. No matter how innocent looking. For a final thought I will finish with this, I pray that it may bring conviction to some.We as Christians are all familiar with the evil of abortion and the arguments of the other side. How that the fetus is not viable and so it is not really a child that is being murdered, and so the abortionist in their minds are innocent.We as Christians are all dumbfounded how anyone could actually put forth such an idiotic argument. Then finally we reach the right conlusion, These people don't care about the argument, but it is the evil lifestyle that they will say anything to justify. It is obvious to all of us. If they don't repent, one day they will surely cry "How could I have believed something so stupid?" and then at that moment the truth will be staring them in the face. They wanted to believe a lie. They loved their sinful lifestyle more than the truth.Now we are down to the end and I have this to say. The Lord has said to keep your hand from doing any evil, we know that he said to cut off our hand if it causes us to sin. The psalmist says " I have turned my feet from every evil way that I may keep thy commandments". Again and again we are counseled in the new testament to be Holy, to be pure, and finally to have no part dark, and give no place to the devil. A problem has arisen among God's people and touches not a few. When someone comes along and actually expects them to do what the bible says, they are immediately called a legalist. The effect being this, that in the area where they are being held accountable they find themselves able to ignore the counsel, and yet keep up their Christianity because this persons counsel not to do evil has been discounted because he is considered by the majority to be a legalist. This is a lie straight from hell, and worse than the lie that the abortionist believes. One day these people are going to come face to face with the truth and will have to admit that the real reason they called the person a legalist wasn't because of their great concern for the doctrine of Christ, but because what the person was saying, if followed would cut into their lives, and the evil thing would have to go. They would need to die to themselves in that area just as Christ taught that we would need to do every day if we are to be his disciples. It is a big lie, don't believe it. Repent and touch not the evil thing.Because I am Holy says the Lord.