Are you ready? The foolish virigns dis-armed

HI saints, I want to talk about the great battle we find ourselves in. You might ask ” what battle?” There is a battle going on for the hearts and souls of professing Christians around the world and believe me, it is fierce. Now, we can look at countries like China and North Korea and so on and know that our brothers and sisters in those countries are engaged in a great battle, an ancient battle, a very familiar battle that saints down through the ages have engaged in. The martyrs from all of the previous centuries would look at these countries and recognize what is going on there, it would be very familiar to them. Yet the battle that I am talking about is the disarming of the saints in the west. 1 Peter 4:1-2 states……….

“Forasmuch then as Christ hath suffered for us in the flesh, arm yourselves likewise with the same mind: for he that hath suffered in the flesh hath ceased from sin; That he no longer should live the rest of his time in the flesh to the lusts of men, but to the will of God.”

Now there is wide application in this verse and it certainly applies to each and every one of us wherever we live and whether we experience persecution or not. Yet, no matter where we live or under what conditions we live in, we are all called to ” arm,” ourselves with the fruits of suffering. Now this flies in the face of modern doctrines and teachings. Can you imagine prosperity preachers or word of faith preachers encouraging their followers to find spiritual strength through suffering? Yet this is exactly what the Scriptures teach. And so a vital part of readying ourselves for the coming of the Lord is to know how to react to suffering and persecution. This is why the modern doctrines I have already mentioned, and I will include here ” hyper grace,” are actually part of the great last time deception of the Church, designed not to arm but to dis-arm Gods servants. Now brothers and sisters, no one falls asleep in the midst of persecution, yet the church in the west has fallen into a great slumber, lulled to sleep by various doctrines that appeal to the very flesh we are here in the Scriptures called to deny, to resist.

Now what does it mean to ” be ready?” Can I suggest that God Himself is preparing His Bride? There is a living Word that God has laid on the hearts of His servants and that Word is the very thing that is preparing His people. He has laid this word on the hearts of His servants and has made it a fire in their bones, woe to them if they do not proclaim what the Lord is showing them, even if they lose everything in the process. It takes strength to walk headlong into hurricane winds. These winds are the corrupted culture and the false doctrines of our day. Saints with eyes to see what the Spirit is showing them are greatly dismayed at the disarming of the people. They can see the great storm of persecution that is coming and we as Gods people, must be fully armed, putting on the full armor of God if we are to stand in that evil day. And when they see the false doctrines of self and how to live your best life now and the particularly heinous doctrine that claims we have no need to humble ourselves before the living God and that a broken and a contrite spirit is no longer applicable, they weep. They tear their clothes so to speak because they know that this is part of the great end time deception of the enemy to dis-arm Gods people prior to the time when he will walk into human history and pour out a fury such as has never been seen before.

Now this Living word that God has put on the hearts of His saints is the Word of God itself. Firstly He tells us in Matt 25:10 that ” those who were ready went in with Him to the marriage and the door was shut.” You see saints, those who were ready, those who had heard the word, those who had armed themselves or in this case has filled their vessels with oil. Now we see in Rev 19:7 this same marriage and it tells us that the ” marriage of the Lamb is come and His wife has made herself ready.” So we know from Scriptures that there was five wise virgins and five foolish virgins. The foolish virgins are the virgins that were deceived, corrupted by the culture and the false doctrines that has dis-armed them, taken the oil out of their vessels so to speak.

How were they fooled? Well Satan, through the culture and through false doctrines merely appealed to the weakness of their flesh, a flesh that hates suffering and despises any denial of what it wants. The flesh wants to be indulged, and yet in the spirit, we as children of God, have been called to deny the flesh. Mat 16:24 ‘Then said Jesus unto his disciples, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me.’ Now remember, our strength lies in the Spirit of God who has instructed us not to walk in the flesh , or the indulgence thereof, but to deny the flesh and to take up our cross and walk in the Spirit. Now think of all the instructions by the living word we have been given and then look at that in the light of what these modern-day heresies teach.

Jas 4:8 Draw nigh to God, and he will draw nigh to you. Cleanse your hands, ye sinners; and purify your hearts, ye double minded.Be afflicted, and mourn, and weep: let your laughter be turned to mourning, and your joy to heaviness. Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and he shall lift you up.

Now hyper grace teaching would deny our need to cleanse our hands or humble ourselves in the sight of the Lord. And why, because Satan is disarming a people as we speak. He knows that God resists the proud and the presumptuous. When there is such a great disaster unfolding throughout Christendom and a time is needed to weep rather than laugh, then the enemy has brought in ” holy laughter,” through charismania. Why? To dis-arm the people because if the people repented and turned to God then God would lift them up. Now Satan knows this so he teaches, through false doctrine, that if you are a professing Christian then there is no need to repent. Now is that Scriptural? Lets see what Jesus is saying to the churches just about 50 years after He was crucified Rev 3:19 ” As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten: be zealous therefore, and repent.’ And so brothers and sisters, the promises are made to those who , according to Jesus, overcome. Part of overcoming is to receive the rebuke and the chastening and in this way we arm ourselves.

Heb 12:5 And you have forgotten the exhortation which speaks to you as to sons, “My son, despise not the chastening of the Lord, nor faint when you are rebuked by Him; for whom the Lord loves He chastens, and He scourges every son whom He receives.” If you endure chastening, God deals with you as with sons, for what son is he whom the father does not chasten? But if you are without chastisement, of which all are partakers, then you are bastards and not sons.

The modern heresies cannot handle these Scriptures, for it is in direct contradiction of a demanding flesh, yet the Scriptures clearly say that we are called to endure hardships and sufferings, just as our Lord did and it also clearly states that if we do not, then we are disarmed, without oil, and are not sons. Brothers and sisters, please see the battle, pray that the Lord will give you eyes to see the great deception, the great disarming of the professing church in our day. We must be armed so that we can stand in that day. God arms, Satan disarms.

1Petr 4:12 Beloved, do not be astonished at the fiery trial which is to try you, as though a strange thing happened to you, but rejoice according as you are partakers of Christ’s suffering, so that when His glory shall be revealed, you may be glad also with exceeding joy. If you are reviled for the name of Christ, you are blessed, because the Spirit of God and of glory rests on you. Truly according to them, He is blasphemed, but according to you He is glorified.

God is raising up, making ready a people on whom the ” Spirit of God and of glory rests,” on. This is a people who have learned to rejoice that they too were counted worthy to be ” partakers of Christ’s sufferings.” Oh how this flies in the face of today’s heresies. And the purpose of it all? That God might be glorified on the earth. Do you want the Spirit of glory to rest upon you? Do you want to ready yourselves brothers and sisters? Then reject all self-serving religion. Reject every voice that would tell you that there is no need to ready yourself, no need to humble yourself, no need to repent and ask for forgiveness. Reject every voice that would encourage you to live your best life now, who would encourage you that God wants to enrich you with the treasures of this world, that you do not have to suffer, reject them all for in doing so you will counter the enemy who is disarming the people. You will stand strong in the armor of the Lord so that you may stand in that evil day. God is arraying His people for battle, He is calling and He is equipping. The time is drawing close brothers and sisters, be vigilant and do not be deceived.

The living word………………….

Joh 17:21 that they all may be one, as You, Father, are in Me, and I in You, that they also may be one in Us, so that the world may believe that You have sent Me. And I have given them the glory which You have given Me, that they may be one, even as We are one. ( He is calling His children out, He is calling and preparing them and He desires one-ness and unity)

Eph 4:13 And this until we all come into the unity of the faith and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to a full-grown man, to the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ.( He is coming to saints who have the Spirit of glory on them, whose lives are dedicated to glorifying God)

Mal 3:1 Behold, I will send My messenger, and He will clear the way before Me. And Jehovah, whom you seek, shall suddenly come to His temple, even the Angel of the Covenant, in whom you delight. Behold, He comes, says Jehovah of Hosts. But who can endure the day of His coming? And who shall stand when He appears? For He is like a refiner’s fire, and like fuller’s soap. And He shall sit as a refiner and purifier of silver. And He shall purify the sons of Levi, and purge them as gold and silver, that they may be offerers of a food offering in righteousness to Jehovah. ( He is building a temple, not by human hands, we, His called out children are that temple, who can endure the day of His coming? Those whom He has readied)

"God has spoken to me through this" ......Amen! ...bro Frank

Frank wrote

The foolish virgins are the virgins that were deceived, corrupted by the culture and the false doctrines that has dis-armed them, taken the oil out of their vessels so to speak.

The difference between the foolish and the wise virgins, was not that they were not prepared. On the contrary, they were well prepared, in fact too prepared. They had carried out all of the preparations of the wise ones, they brought their lamps, as they would not be allowed outside in the dark, once the bridegroom had arrived, to lead them to the banqueting hall, they waited but fell asleep, just like the wise virgins. They had calculated the time of waiting and filled their lamps with enough to last. But by making that calculation, they had shown their error - they depended on their own understanding or the flesh. No deception, corruption or false doctrine. They did what all men do naturally. They worked it out for themselves but they calculated wrongly. They were excluded because they got the timing wrong.

The wise virgins did not do this. They were not in the flesh, they were in the Spirit. They were unable to prepare further than to make sure that they had plenty of oil because they had crucified the flesh so they no longer were led by their own understanding. They did not try to guess when the bridegroom would come so they covered their options by bringing spare oil.

The parable shows the difference between those who walk in their own understanding, and those who walk by the Spirit, it has nothing to do with persecution

1 Peter 4:1-2 “Forasmuch then as Christ hath suffered for us in the flesh, arm yourselves likewise with the same mind: for he that hath suffered in the flesh hath ceased from sin; That he no longer should live the rest of his time in the flesh to the lusts of men, but to the will of God.”

Living our lives in the flesh to the lusts of men (all desire not only sexual) can include even the way we obey the commandments. If we obey through our own understanding, then it is the flesh and the door to the banquet will be closed.

To be entirely led by the Spirit, flesh must be crucified, not denied.Those who have crucified the flesh will suffer persecution They do not have to wait until it comes. It happens immediately man enters into the life of the Spirit, when all hell breaks out on him from the enemy.

So the message is for foolish, must be, the persecution is ready to come in today, if you stop walking in the flesh. It is either persecution or a closed door. Decide today for you do not know when the bridegroom will arrive for YOU.

With Frank's message, there is the danger of delay. If we think that we have time to prepare, we will be deceived. It is natural for the mind of man to think that he has time and that he can look out for signs that some future happenings and act once he spots the signs of impending doom.

But that is depending again on our own understanding. The message of scripture is TODAY. If we are not led by the Spirit in all things, and walking in holiness and purity of heart, NOW, we are in danger. Sleepers awake!

My sister writes........

"The difference between the foolish and the wise virgins, was not that they were not prepared."

The actul quote sister was about people either being ready and we are commended by Scripture to be ready.

"Mat_24:44 Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh.

Mat_25:10 And while they went to buy, the bridegroom came; and they that were ready went in with him to the marriage: and the door was shut.

Luk_12:40 Be ye therefore ready also: for the Son of man cometh at an hour when ye think not.

Rev_19:7 Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready.

Dear sister, I am going to have to stick with Scripture and not the opinions or doctrines of men. Some men have pre-concieved notions as to what the Scriptures say, and put a grid over it and attempt to make the Scriptures fall in line with their particular doctrine, this is a great mistake. The simple reading is that some were ready and some were not. Some went in and some did not. This should be a challenge to us,especially in this day of cheap grace.

Mar_8:34 And when he had called the people unto him with his disciples also, he said unto them, Whosoever will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me.

The Scriptures never contradict themselves. Here Jesus plainly tells His followers that they who would desire to follow after Him must deny themsleves and take up their crosses. This is plain enough language...........bro Frank

bro Frank

They were not in a position to leave with the bridegroom, that is true, but the point was why they were not ready. If we miss that point we have missed the warning and the way to be prepared. They were using their own understanding and that was the reason why they were not ready. The reason for the unreadiness was the difference between them - flesh v spirit.

deny himself

Self is not flesh.

That he could find a way to insert persecution into that parable was bizarre to say the least.

In fact the inversion is epic.

IT is the foolish that are locked out INTO PERSECUTION

I rather thought that Frank was speaking about believers in all places and in all times having a mind to suffer. The reference to the persecuted churches at the beginning of the article was by way of introduction and concluded with the reality which comes from persecution, namely suffering in the flesh takes away the desire to sin.

Then Frank said

“Now there is wide application in this verse and it certainly applies to each and every one of us wherever we live and whether we experience persecution or not. Yet, no matter where we live or under what conditions we live in, we are all called to ” arm,” ourselves with the fruits of suffering.”

I agree with what Frank has said here simply because the Scripture is itself very clear on this point. We can be certain of this by simply looking at what the difference was between the wise and the foolish virgins. Whatever “slept” means and whatever “lamp” means and “oil” as well as all the other components in this parable the only difference between these virgins is the quantity of oil. I take it that Krautfrau reads this to mean that the five foolish were not perfect and sinless as she teaches we must be to be even called a christian (see foot note quotation), and by deduction the five wise were wise because they were perfect in their lives and so are “worthy” of salvation. Now we have another twist by another who says that this parable has to do with an event preceding the great tribulation and that being foolish means precisely to suffer persecution. Of course I realise that it is a simple matter to ridicule my points but I know what you have meant to say, it is implicit in your words.

Words are very important we should be especially nervous of changing the simple meaning of Scripture. Alas a little leaven leavens the whole bread and even the little children can be led astray.

Frank did not say that a believer must be persecuted in order to become “wise” he simply said that all believers everywhere and in all places must follow the simple and clear Scriptural admonition by the Apostle to arm ourselves with a mind to suffer. The context given is a battle ground and the battle is fuelled by what Frank calls cheap grace and the combatants are believers in the WEst especially. Thus the danger being that believers in the West are by reason of taking the grace of God lightly thereby neglecting their service to Christ being more concerned with their own interests due chiefly to this attitude of not having a mind to suffer. Mind to suffer does not necessarily equate to persecution in this article, it is presented as a wise thing to do in the sense of the wise virgins. Whatever comes from this attitude is not precisely mentioned it is a presentation in the spirit with a view to allowing the Holy Spirit to speak to our hearts.

So to list the quote from Krautfrau as cited above……here we are then.

.............his failing was in not having entered into the fullness of the way of holiness which is in fact the start of the Christian life, and before then, like the early disciples, we have a measure of knowledge of Christ, and are believers indeed, but in fact not yet Christians ie little Christ`s. No matter how much we reassure ourselves with Bible verses, without the witness that we have the divine nature in its fullness then like many in the Holiness movement , we are preaching half a gospel whereas the full gospel for every man and not for a chosen few or those who only have a small measure is Christ within you the hope of glory - glorified today, otherwise as scripture clearly says that any man who sins is of the devil...........Posted on 05/02/2010 in another place at 4:27am.

I suppose that it is easy to see why Krautfrau sees the wise virgins as saved and the foolish as lost in this doctrine of devils.. In this quotation they are the only ones who are really saved and none other because “not having entered into the fullness of the way of holiness which is in fact the start of the Christian life, and before then, like the early disciples, we have a measure of knowledge of Christ, and are believers indeed, but in fact not yet Christians ie little Christ`s.” Being a “little Christ” must be very comforting.

I believe that brother Andrew understands very well where I am coming from and did a rather good job of explaining it. My dear sister sees everything from her doctrinal stance, and there is danger in that, the danger of the doctrinal grid placed over Scripture to make it say what we want it to say. Of course Psalm 1 has a clear doctrinal stance that is exposed by his statement, but again, if your doctrinal perspective is wrong and you have used your grid to interpret all Scripture to fit it, then you build error upon error. The simple plain expression of Scripture is always the best way to go. For example, if we are told to do something, then we should do it. If we are admonished to be ready, then we should ready ourselves. If we are told to arm oursleves with the frutiful results of suffering in the flesh for the sake of Christ, then that is waht we should do. If Christ tells believers in Reevelation to repent, then we should repent if it is applicable to us.

Just for clarity, I do not believe in a pre-trib rapture. I do believe that genuine believers will suffer greatly in the tribulation period and the run up to it, and this can be called persecution. So, there are degrees of suffering, and all genuine Christians will and have suffered to one degree or another. Yet, praise God, He never leaves us nor forsakes us and when the enemy comes in like a flood, He raises up a standard, He gives us the grace that we need when we need it. He is glorified in all of this and there is a spirit of glory that comes from the faithful witness of genuine saints............bro Frank

Brother, we cannot avoid viewing the scriptures through our own lenses and the most significant way of interpreting is through experiencing an encounter with the living Christ which opens up the truth to us or gives us light. With each profound encounter, the scriptures are opened up to us in deeper levels. At one time we read "Thou shalt not commit adultery" and then later, we see that it means spiritual adultery too, that is, the worship of idols, and then even later, that it means even our thoughts. The more we know Christ, the more integrated our understanding of the scriptures will be, because of this spiritual understanding rather than intellectual grasp alone and the more obedient we will be, as we see His beauty and magnificence.

So there is no simple level for everyone. "Prepare your selves" and "arm yourself" are too vague unless it has been revealed to us exactly what is required. Some will understand preparation as merely having knowledge yet others will see that they need a complete makeover. Even "repent" is not clearly understood as some think it just means feeling regretful rather than a total turn around against sin.

Each of us are merely stating our individual interpretation of scripture and a man will show how much he knows Christ by his behaviour towards others. Does he insult other believers or does he show respect to all? The first man will have a very shallow understanding of the deeper spiritual meanings of scripture. Many believers at a less mature level will insist that theirs is the true interpretation without seeing that other meanings are possible at more mature levels and show their immaturity by their ungracious ferocity in disputes.

He gives us the grace that we need when we need it.

Sometimes He leaves us to suffer without any grace to help us. This is the true dark night. But if we persist, then we will eventually be blessed by His presence. It is wrong however, to say that we will always receive grace when we need it and can be the fall of some when they are led to expect it.

HI dear sister.

I am certainly not against seeing the Scriptures through our own lenses in light of our walk and the revelation of Christ and the illumination of His Holy Spirit to us, in fact I would commend that to all. No, what I clearly said was that people bring pre-conceived notions to the Scriptures, a grid, which they place over the Scriptures then make them say what they want them to say.

Say for instance you were sold out to a doctrine of sinless perfection, then you would make the whole Scriptures fit in with that perception and the clear and simple interpretation of many of the Scriptures would be lost as you tried to make it fit into your own personal opinion of an overall doctrine. The same could be said for Calvinism and its counterpart. Or again could be said for the pre-tribbers and so on and they come up with what they call " problem," Scriptures, meaning Scriptures that do not fit into their overall view or doctrine.

Imagine that you are a Calvinist and you read a Scripture that says God would have that none would be lost but that all would come to a saving knowledge of God? Does that change their minds about their doctrine? No, not at all, they would simply ignore that Scripture or come up with some outlandish explanation as to why it did not mean what it clearly said. ( this is definately not an invitation to debate Calvinism or sinless perfection)

As for grace sister, you missed what I said and spoke past me, perhaps in a rush to say that I was wrong, when in fact we are both saying the same thing. " He gives us the grace that we need when we need it." The key part of what I said was " when we need it." If we need a dark night of the soul, a wilderness experience and so on, then the Lord knows. If you think the best of me, if that is your knee jerk reaction, then perhaps you would see that. Do not be too quick to say that I was wrong, for in this you may still be operating in the flesh. I know this sister because I have been there a thousand times in the past. In my anxiousness to prove another wrong, I often missed the fact that we were both in agreement, but that was not my main priority, my main priority at those times was proving to others that I was right. God bless you sister and may the Lord be glorified in these days.............bro Frank

Dear brother

I have never been the sort of person who is more concerned about keeping their 'system' intact rather than cast themselves adrift into confusion, in search of truth. I have never felt more concerned about being a part of the 'crowd' than accepting the loss of people who would not accept a 'traitor' in their midst.

During my early years in a Reformed church, I accepted what I was taught but later found many verses that did not add up to the system I was being presented with, and I could not let them go or accept the convoluted explanations around them.For example, why would the writers of scripture say 'the world' if they had a different meaning to the plain and simple one?

Leaving Calvinism behind was a scary thing especially as it was before internet times. I looked at other theological systems and attended a Dispensational church for a while, and got lost in Revelation. I always remembered however that I was taken in with Calvinism and determined at that point to research myself, everything that was presented to me as truth and not just accept it because learned men said so.

During this time I read the writings of holiness teacher Oswald Chambers, and found the right direction. It was a path I had never heard of previously. Things started to add up. Then when I heard that the way to become righteous, which was the the longing in my heart, was by faith in what Christ did in taking us to the cross with Him, it was Eureka!

Since then I have searched the scriptures and have been more than happy to test out what I felt that had been revealed to me directly from Christ which was against all that I had previously been taught in my many readings of opposing theologies. The Lord deemed it necessary to keep me separate from the church during this time so there was no pressure to conform. I read widely from past writings in the new direction I found myself in.

At times I have spent many weeks and months sometimes studying apparent inconsistencies, such as the beginning of Corinthians where Paul calls them sanctified, but which to me was not in line with Keswick theology. At the same time I was experiencing the things I read about.

I arrived at a point where the scriptures were amalgamated enough for me to feel confident in the truth I felt had been revealed, and I found then other writers who were on the same page as it were, but I have never stopped searching the scriptures.

The way to tell if we are on the right track is that our understanding of God's word will line up with what goes on in our heart and lives.I read that those of Christ will suffer in the flesh and will be persecuted, but the power of God will allow one to be an overcomer and enable one to resist all temptation and that is what I was finding in my life.

I only have to look around me at the believers I know to be sure beyond doubt that they are on the wrong track as they fall at the first instance in failing to support and love a fellow believer who is too sick to attend any service and then leave them to rot (in case anyone starts accusations, it is even when they do not know what my beliefs are). Many other believers are like me and too chronically sick to be in church and they are left alone too with no compassion or support.

The theology of the mass, is seriously wrong and it shows in their actions.

" He gives us the grace that we need when we need it." The key part of what I said was " when we need it." If we need a dark night of the soul, a wilderness experience and so on, then the Lord knows.

Brother that is not clear from your words if you have to add something and especially for younger believers who will take the words you uttered at face value. For many years I believed when I was told that God will not put anything on you that is too much to bear but I found that untrue and it caused me great sufferings. I do see your meaning though.

Dear sister, you wrote.........

"Brother that is not clear from your words if you have to add something and especially for younger believers who will take the words you uttered at face value. For many years I believed when I was told that God will not put anything on you that is too much to bear but I found that untrue and it caused me great sufferings. I do see your meaning though."

I could definately add something to clarify, no doubt sister. I was glad to read that we agree on not being sold on systems. I would like to make a point about your last sentence of the quote above. The Lord says in His word that we would never be tempted more than we were able. By His word and by my experience, I have found it to be true, despite death and disease and all the troubles of life which the Lord has allowed me to walk through, I have found Him to be faithful thereby not making it too much to bear. Hundreds of thousands, indeed millions down through the last two thousand years have found that to be true also sister. So many of those were brothers and sisters who had lost everything, were tortured and imprisoned and then horribly killed, but their testimony of the grace and yes, even joy that they found in the deepest of dungeons, lives on and lives out the Word. I would like to add one of my favorite testimonies from a martyr from 1557, his name being Algerius. Now Algerius was imprisoned for his faith, horribly tortured not over days or months, but over years, and then a few weeks before his equally horrible death, he pens this letter to those on the outside...............

To my beloved brethren and fellow servants of Jesus Christ, who have gone out of Babylon unto mount Zion, whose names I do not omit without cause, grace, peace and mercy from God our Father, and the Lord Jesus Christ, our Lord and Saviour. Amen. In order somewhat to sweeten or take away the pain which you suffer on my account, I would communicate to you the sweetness which I experience, that you may rejoice with me, and shout for joy with thanksgiving in the presence of the Lord.

I will tell to the world an incredible thing, namely, that I have found infinite sweetness in the bowels of the lion. And who will in any wise believe what I am going to relate here? Who can believe it?

In a dark hole I have found pleasure; in a place of bitterness and death, rest and hope of salvation; in the abyss or depths of hell, joy; where others weep, I have laughed; where others fear, I have found strength; who will believe this? In a state of misery I have had very great delight; in a lonely corner I have had most glorious company, and in the severest bond, great rest. All these things, my fellow brethren in Jesus Christ, the gracious hand of God has given me.

Behold, He that at first was far from me, is now with me, and Him whom I knew but a little, I now see clearly; to whom I once looked from afar, Him I now behold as present; He for whom I longed, now offers me His hand; He comforts me; He fills me with joy; He drives from me bitterness, and renews within me strength and sweetness; He makes me well; He sustains me; He helps me up; He strengthens me. Oh, how good is the Lord, who does not suffer His servants to be tempted above that they are able I Oh, how easy, pleasant and sweet is His yoke.

Is there any like God the Most High, who sustains and refreshes those that are tempted? He heals them that are bruised and wounded, and restores them altogether. Isa. 41; 43:20. None is like Him. Learn, most beloved brethren, how sweet the Lord is, how faithful and merciful; who visits His servants in trial (Isa. 43:2); who humbles Himself and condescends to be with us in our huts and humble abodes. He gives us a cheerful mind and peaceful heart.

The Lord says in His word that we would never be tempted more than we were able. By His word and by my experience, I have found it to be true, despite death and disease and all the troubles of life which the Lord has allowed me to walk through, I have found Him to be faithful thereby not making it too much to bear.

Brother, that verse is regarding temptation to sin and I have found indeed that the Lord always provides a way to escape it, in order to enable us to 'walk as He walked in this world' and to keep us blameless before Him. He does not however promise that trials will always be bearable though I have known His grace on many occasions, to enable me to bear them in sweet repose.

If we look at scripture we can see occasions when things got too much for Jesus and men too. There comes a time for many who are following the way of the cross to cry out 'My God my God why have you forsaken me' and we read of Paul recounting that at one point he despaired even of life. Job too went through the dark night where the heavens seemed as brass with no sense of the help or presence of God just when you need Him most.

I too believed in the oft repeated assurance that things would never be too much and it nearly caused a crisis of faith for me when I found it to be untrue. I learned that it is not a punishment but a means of sharing in the sufferings of Christ, being willing to forsake ones own life in order to have His, manifest in us. To walk that walk does require our consent however, so in a way it is true, that if we are unwilling for it then we will never be required to share in His sufferings.

HI sister, let me first address the point about 1 Cor 10:12-15

So let him who thinks he stands take heed lest he fall.
No temptation has taken you but what is common to man; but God is faithful, who will not allow you to be tempted above what you are able, but with the temptation also will make a way to escape, so that you may be able to bear it.
Therefore, my dearly beloved, flee from idolatry.
1Co 10:15 I speak as to wise men; you judge what I say.

Matthew Henry says of those verses...........

"III. But to this word of caution he adds a word of comfort, 1Co_10:13. Though it is displeasing to God for us to presume, it is not pleasing to him for us to despair. If the former be a great sin, the latter is far from being innocent. Though we must fear and take heed lest we fall, yet should we not be terrified and amazed; for either our trials will be proportioned to our strength, or strength will be supplied in proportion to our temptations."

So sister, I think we may be talking past each other again for it seems that we may just actually agree. Certainly there were times of despairing for Paul, as with all believers I believe. Yet, and here is the most vital part, it was not their state, it was not their walk, it was indeed a snapshot in time and space. Now that snapshot may be an hour, a day a month or a year, but a snapshot none the less which is why Paul can later say that he had learned to be content no matter what situation he found himself in.

And so sister, you and I agree that in order to reach the highest peaks of the mountaintop, one must first be familiar with the lowest depths of the valleys. Yet, if you take these Scriptures and use them as an excuse to wallow in the lowest depths of the valley and never achieve victory, never come to that place of overcoming ( and I know saints like this) one would be pandering to the flesh and not overcoming and and persevering. The promises are made to the over-comers sister and we know that we will have troubles in this life but we have also been to be of " good cheer for I have overcome the world," and its in this overcoming lies the victory, victory in Jesus, our Saviour forever.

Let us praise God that He never leaves us nor forsakes us, even in the darkest moments of our lives when we feel abandoned and lost we can look to the Scriptures and past our feelings and know that His Word never lies. We can know even the Lord Himself when He cried out to God in heaven above " My God , My God, why has thou forsaken me," that indeed He was not forsaken, God was still His Father and He was still His Son and that the plan of God would be fulfilled.

And so I would say to any brother or sister reading this, if you feel abandoned or forsaken, if you are despairing of life itself, that yes indeed others have felt that way, in that you are not alone, and that you have a God who has promised you that He has not forsaken you. The Word of God is true and never changes, not like the world or our circumstances or our feelings, and we can stand on the solid rock of the Word of God and His promise, all other ground is sinking sand and will swallow you whole. The promise itself is life, and when we choose to believe God in the midst of our circumstances, life will flow from that when it is ready to flow. God know, let us trust God in everything.............bro Frank

Brother indeed I agree with you that the Lord never forsakes us as He has made promises which cannot be broken. However, there are times, in the deepest pits in the valley, when one can have the full force of hell released in the same manner of Job, and to be in utter confusion, as to why God does not appear when one is in the deepest repentance and longing to have the Lord return after knowing such sweet communion, but instead there is a greater pouring forth of the seeming wrath of God. At those rare times when strength is gone and the waters pour over our heads, there is no strength supplied and all we can do is lay at His feet and refuse to surrender to our human reasoning as to why we must suffer so. The despair at those times, is not self pity but a great fear that we have somehow wandered off of the pathway and no matter how much assurance is given, the afflicted one will not find peace for they fear that they have offended God in some way that they cannot fathom.

The suffering is made worse by others who spout on about victory available if only they would trust, and for them to stop wallowing in the valley. Instead they should thank God that they have not been called to share in the sufferings of Christ and show compassion over a matter they do not understand nor have experienced such as Matthew Henry who could mistakenly write "for either our trials will be proportioned to our strength, or strength will be supplied in proportion to our temptations.".

Again, the verse is regarding temptation to sin and not an escape after sinning.

blessings to you.

Hi dear sister,

Can I suggest, for the sake of civil discourse, because I believe this to be an important topic, that we do not use phrases like

"The suffering is made worse by others who spout on about victory available if only they would trust, and for them to stop wallowing in the valley."

I think when you use the word " spout,' that it reveals a possible bitterness in you sister, but I could be wrong. I thought we already agreed about the fact that there would be times in our lives when we felt hopeless? When we despaired? When we felt abandoned? Having agreed upon that, why do you seem so adverse to talk of victory? Do you not believe that Jesus was victorious? Do you not believe that the promises are made , by Jesus to those who overcome? Do you not believe that we overcome in Christ because He has overcame? Again sister, you seem to be focusing on a snapshot rather than the whole walk of the Christian. Did Paul not learn to be content in every situation?

If you were to counsel someone who was despairing, and were called by God to counsel them, what would your counsel be to them? Would you tell them that they would never experience peace again in their lives? Would you tell them that joy was lost to them and that their situation was hopeless? Or would you not rather tell them that despite their present situation, that God loves them and has not abandoned them and in due time, in God's time, he would lift them in their hearts and spirits? Perhaps their situation might not change but that God, despite circumstances, brings victory to every believer who will lift up their heads and see where their help comes from.

So perhaps we see victory differently and that is why we may have our wires crossed here sister? If you see victory as an aleviating of circumstances, then we agree, often times the circumstances are not changed and will not change. I had lunch yesterday with a man whose 30 year old son committed suicide 8 months ago. Now the man was just recently diagnosed with cancer, so you could say he was having a bad year, his son is not coming back and he has to deal with the cancer. Yet the man has discovered victory in the midst of dire circumstances. He has chosen to trust God and lift his voice and praise him despite the circumstances.

Did that come without struggle? Absolutely not. Did he face a very dark night of the soul? Indeed he did. Yet,he has discovered it is the promises of God that is his strength. And that has allowed him to experience joy in the midst of great turmoil and experience the presence of God like he has never done before. How extraordinary, how supernatural. The Lord has prepared a table before him in the presence of his enemies. So where there should be defeat, this man has won through and found victory in Christ. Where the world would be overcome by such circumstances, he has found renewed strength, a new dawn in his life after a dark , dark night. God bless you sister...........bro Frank

mj wrote

I have read what you have shared and this part really does confuse me because by the way you have written it are you saying then that when a person does come out of this despair they do so by their own strength? By your words,as you said "there is no strength supplied," so then who is holding up this Christian, where does the strength come from? who gets the glory and praise for sustaining the christian through such a time???

Sister, there are times of dark night where all strength is gone, but glory be to God He does eventually come with an almighty shout and deliver that person. The person is actually preserved by God and nothing can happen without His consent, but of course the person during the time is not aware of it and sometimes the gates of hell are allowed to pour down but the life is saved.

Dear brother

I was trying to express the feelings of the ones who are being told that they will be able to bear all things. It makes their sufferings ten times worse to hear these comments. I don't believe I have any bitterness myself. At times in the past however, I did feel extremely annoyed with people who made these comments but praise be to God no longer am I upset with them but merely want to point out that such times occur and those going through them are not helped to hear such things.

Indeed I do believe in victory as I have just said to Mary. And I would counsel them that in time the Lord will deliver them from the valley and that it is but for a period of time which is nothing compared with eternity. But it must be in His time when this sort of trial ends and the point I am making is that it makes the trial worse if a sufferer is told that the problem is their lack of faith or that nothing will be too much to bear when it clearly is for them.

I know the Lord's strength myself when my 33 year old son committed suicide and there were other circumstances to deal with.

I don't know why we are misunderstanding each other brother. I do find that many suffering great trials are given pat answers or shown verses in scripture when what they need is an arm around them and even a tear shed on their behalf just because they are in pain. Only in the church are members shooting their wounded and I just wanted to make that clear..

God bless

Hi sister, you write......

"Indeed I do believe in victory as I have just said to Mary. And I would counsel them that in time the Lord will deliver them from the valley and that it is but for a period of time which is nothing compared with eternity. But it must be in His time when this sort of trial ends and the point I am making is that it makes the trial worse if a sufferer is told that the problem is their lack of faith or that nothing will be too much to bear when it clearly is for them."

Now sister, at least on this thread and the OP you will agree that no one ever suggested anything about a lack of faith in regard to the outcome or cause of a situation. My major point has nothing to do with that and it is this point that I am pressing, that we do have victory in Jesus in every situation and in that no brother or sister should ever be ashamed to say that to another brother or sister.

In the darkest valleys, when despair has risen up even to a point where we no longer want to live, then we fall back upon the Word of God. Let me say just one more time, the victory I am referring to has nothing to do with any one's actual circumstances ( although God certainly can and does change people's circumstances) the victory is quite apart from our circumstances, I think we can agree on that and I believe we are on the same page sister. I agree that a compassionate arm around another brother or sister and a tear shed with them is a beautiful thing, but in this I am sure you will agree, that when all have forsaken us, then there is Christ alone and the Word of God. We can shed tears dear sister and wrap our arms around another with the love of the Lord and we can also share the great promises of the Word that will ultimately sustain us, one can do both, they are not mutually exclusive, in fact, quite the opposite. If you are making a case against Job's friends or clumsy unfeeling brothers and sisters in Christ, then you have my support.

If there were things in life that was too much to bear then we would die. I think you will agree that we perceive them as too much to bear but in reality we can bear all things because of Christ our over-comer. This is our hope, our strength and our Joy. It is this " knowledge,' that ultimately keeps us. That is why that even although Paul despaired so, he did not die, God kept him from that and He keeps us. Here is one of my favorite Psalms and has all the elements that we have been speaking about............

Psa 57:1 To the Chief Musician. Do not destroy. A secret treasure of David, when he fled from Saul in the cave. Be merciful to me, O God, be merciful to me; for my soul trusts in You; yea, in the shadow of Your wings I will make my hiding-place, until these great troubles pass by.
Psa 57:2 I will cry to God most high, to God who does all things for me.
Psa 57:3 He shall send from Heaven, and save me from the scorn of him who would swallow me up. Selah. God shall send forth His mercy and His truth.
Psa 57:4 My soul is among lions; I lie among those on fire, the sons of men whose teeth are spears and arrows, and their tongue a sharp sword.
Psa 57:5 Be praised above the heavens, O God; let Your glory be above all the earth.
Psa 57:6 They have prepared a net for my steps; my soul is bowed down; they have dug a pit before me, they have fallen into it. Selah.
Psa 57:7 My heart is fixed, O God, my heart is fixed; I will sing and give praise.
Psa 57:8 Wake up, my soul! Wake up, harp and lyre! I will awake the dawn.
Psa 57:9 I will praise You, O Jehovah, among the peoples; I will sing to You among the nations.
Psa 57:10 For Your mercy is great to the heavens, and Your truth to the clouds.
Psa 57:11 Be exalted above the heavens, O God; let Your glory be above all the earth.

My sister writes........

"I know the Lord's strength myself when my 33 year old son committed suicide and there were other circumstances to deal with."

I am so sorry to hear that sister. I can only imagine that this is a uniquely painful tragedy that could only be understood by those who had walked that particular narrow path. I can understand that you yourself may have fallen victim to platitudes by well meaning Christians. I am glad to hear that you knew and experienced the Lord's strength. The man that I spoke to yesterday, who had lost his son a couple of weeks before last Christmas would certainly relate. I myself had spoken to his son just four weeks before he died and it shook me. I had never met his dad until yesterday and there experienced the beauty of the Body of Christ, stranger in life, but brother in Christ............bro Frank

If there were things in life that was too much to bear then we would die.

Dear brother that is not true. Men without God lose their minds when things become too much to bear although they sometimes end their lives. Job reached a point when things became too much for him to bear.

Despite great loss including his children property and his health, Job did not sin and continued to praise God. He accepted all things as from the hand of God though it was clearly shown that God did not send the evil. He permitted it and it was Satan who was the instigator. Job had learned in the past the secret of overcoming all of the bad circumstances in life, that is to say, in thanking God for them knowing that He could have stepped in and prevented them but He did not and Job had learned well that the most important thing is the state of our spirit, not material ease or the love and support of family and friends and that it is through suffering that we grow into spiritual maturity, unto the full stature of a man in Christ who also learned and grew through suffering proving God`s word that all things work to the good of those who are one with Him.

Chapter three opens up the reason why we suddenly find Job in utter misery and despair whereas previous to this he had peace and joy. He speaks of darkness and the shadow of death, the blackness of the day and the solitary night (3:6) where `no joyful voice come therein` (3:7) Job is describing the experience of seemingly being deserted by God where the light he had previously walked in, had been taken away and now he was in darkness, and he found himself in utter confusion (10:15).

The thing he had dreaded had come upon him, where he no longer dwelt in the rest that remains for the people of God nor in the safety of being sheltered under the wing of God. Job could cope with anything that life threw at him, even losing all he had so long as he was dwelling close to his Saviour and upheld by the arms of God and for us we too know the peace that passeth understanding while walking in His presence, on the mountain top, but God had consented to his sifting by Satan and those today who have walked in holiness, will one day find themselves plunged into the wilderness and experience that which their Master had been required to go through too.

Job finds himself in the wilderness and is tempted by three voices from what are supposed to be his friends. It may be that the three voices are going on inside of Job`s head, the voices of human reasoning standing against the voice of Job`s former spiritual insights when he was walking in the light and holy and therefore having the discernment to see things from God`s point of view through having the mind of Christ. Although the light has gone, he retains the knowledge and argues back from it, reasoning against his opponents accusations that:

a) even though he admits that he has lost his assurance that he is holy, he once was confirming that man can live without sinning

b) it was not sin which brought about his downfall therefore he is not being punished by God. God later confirms that Job was correct and that the voices were wrong.

It is a point of torture for those who are on the same path and who fall into the dark night, to seek the sin which has caused their fall from grace.

Job reproves the voices and shows they are not coming from divine wisdom. He shows that the attitude of Eliphaz is wrong and not coming from the Holy Spirit and of a heart of love when he says in response (6:14) `To him that is afflicted, pity should be shown from his friends, but he forsaketh the fear of the Lord`. Eliphaz is not walking in the Spirit.

`Do you imagine to reprove words and the speeches of one who is desperate which are as wind?` (6:26) How true it is that those who are in trauma and despair find little help and comfort, even in the place where help should be found – in the church especially those who are passing through the dark night of the soul, and find like Jesus `I looked for comforters but there were none`.

May we be mindful not to increase the sufferings of such as these by correcting their confused thoughts with `sound doctrine`, in the meantime without pity or love. Instead how often do we overwhelm the fatherless, digging them a pit (6:27) instead of encouraging them that the Lord always returns to those whom He has seemingly deserted.

Job asks `How long wilt thou not depart from me nor let me alone till I swallow down my spittle?` (7:19) He begins to think that the cause is that he has sinned for this is the explanation of the voices but he does not understand because he desires to be restored and repents but with no result. `And why dost Thou not pardon my transgressions and take away mine iniquity?` (7:21) (If this is the reason for the desertion)

Job wishes to be restored but it does not happen so the voices put the blame on him. O how often is this repeated in the churches? Then Bildad speaks `If though wouldest seek unto God betimes, and make thy supplication to the Almighty, IF though wert pure and upright surely now we would awake for thee (8:5). The voices have no understanding of the higher works of God which are above human reasoning which His holy ones must go through. Perhaps this is the voice of temptation seeking to destroy Job`s faith. Job pleads with God `Do not condemn me show me therefore Thou contendeth with me (10:2) The way to the Holy of Holies is a strange and narrow path.

Job shows his superior spiritual standing by his longing to be restored to God and his agony when not in the conscious presence of the Lord, not content to be standing in position only, living in the dead letter of the word and not with the Living Word as his guide. `O that I knew where I might find Him that I might come even to His seat` (Song of Songs 23:3) and echo the plea of the Shulamite in Song of Solomon (SS 3:11) by night on my bed I sought Him whom my soul loveth, I sought Him but I found Him not, the seeking bride cried out, `I opened to my beloved but my beloved had withdrawn Himself and was gone.

My soul faileth when He spoke, I sought Him but I could not find Him, I called Him but He gave no answer` (SS 5:6) and like Job and His comforters. `The watchmen that went about the city found me; they smote me; they wounded me; they the keepers of the wall took away my veil from me (SS 5:7).

Job prophesised his own restoration (23:10) `But He knoweth the way that I take, when He hath tried me I shall come forth as gold, as the Shulamite emerges (SS 7:5) `Who is this that cometh up from the wilderness leaning upon her beloved. Jealousy is cruel as the grave, the coals the re are coals of fire which hath a most vehement flame`.

There is no need to fear, however, the purification and cleansing of the Lord as the famous hymn neatly puts it in How Firm a Foundation :

When through fiery trials thy pathway shall lie
His grace all sufficient shall be thy supply
The flame shall not hurt thee His only design
Thy dross to consume and thy gold to refine.

Job had questioned God and had not waited patiently for Him to return. He was not self righteous, his claim for holiness and his dispute with his friends that sin had not brought about the separation from God was correct. He had spoken the truth. `I have sinned ,' (he mistakenly thinks) what shall I do unto Thee O Thou preserver of men? Why hast Thou set me as a mark against Thee so that I am a burden to myself? And why dost Thou not pardon my transgressions and take away my iniquity? For now shall I sleep in the dust, and Thou shall seek me in the morning but I shall not be` (7:20-21).

Eventually it is too much for Job and he calls the Almighty, the creator of the universe into question and then issuing a threat like a peeved lover - `I will no longer be around when you decide to end this desertion of yours and bother to come looking for me. Why do you not end this and return me to my previous position by taking away my iniquity so that I can be holy again and have the respect I formerly commanded when men would listen to me and not even have a reply, whereas now I am burdened by these `comforters` who call me a liar and a hypocrite.`

The three comforters had driven Job over the edge. Only those who have been through a Job trial know what this suffering is and that those who have not been thrown into this baptism are unable come to any other conclusion that the afflicted one is to be blamed because they are in effect saying that things can be so bad that it is beyond a believers ability to bear it.

Only those who have not been in Job's place will judge him to have become lacking when all he needed to do was trust God. They will think that he brought it on to himself without knowing of the spiritual battle behind it. Job nearly lost his mind I believe but just in time he was delivered.

This kind of trial is not common but it is known well as the dark night of the spirit.

Thank you brother for your kind words. I was not given platitudes by believers. Instead they were silent and acted embarassed. The Lord was a great strength at the time and I do not consider it the most severest trial though obviously very painful indeed.

In all of this you are speaking about yourself and it has little to do with Job. Is it your hope Brenda that by means of accusation you can press men into platitudes and fables? It cannot work even though it would appear that men are indeed easily pressed into platitudes and fables.

Dear sister..... you write.....

"The three comforters had driven Job over the edge. Only those who have been through a Job trial know what this suffering is and that those who have not been thrown into this baptism are unable come to any other conclusion that the afflicted one is to be blamed because they are in effect saying that things can be so bad that it is beyond a believers ability to bear it."

Am I assuming you count yourself as Job and know of what you speak because of your suffering? And I, holding a slightly different view from you must not know suffering? Can that really be your argument?? I will assume not unless you correct me.

We, sister, no matter what level of suffering we go through, we still have a choice, still have a responsibility to respond to that situation with trust in God. We do not reach a level of suffering that qualifies us to dwell perpetually in hopelessness or despair. Even David, who through no fault of his own, found himself in a cave said that he was " steadfast." He ultimately says that he would awaken the dawn, that he would praise him to the nations. You cannot do that in a cave. You cannot see the dawn in a cave, in a cave there is only darkness. And so we, as Christians, still have a responsibility to trust God and hold on to His promises, especially when all is darkness. This is, by the way, the testimony of the Church down through the ages.............bro Frank

http://www.easyenglish.info/bible-commentary/job-lbw.htm