Should She Preach? - Biblical Evangelism for Women.

Brother,

This is an important topic. In the underground Church in China there are more women then men in active ministry and in some cases shepherds of God's flock. Most are evangelists and apostles that build up the body of Christ and win souls to the Lord. Most of the head leadership from what I can tell is men so women do submit to men.

I see nothing wrong with sisters serving the Lord in teaching and preaching (prophesying) especially to the lost but as towards authority the men are given the greater authority in family and in the Church. Those women should always defer to men's authority where she can. This is biblical and right.

But God is raising up women in places where men have not obeyed God and therefore that is another exception to the rule for myself personally. It is simply healthy in a local assembly to allow times for sisters to prophesy but there should be more of a meek, quiet submission for sisters in general.

The Lord will bring balance to this as saints in the West are open to God's way and not a religious form that is devoid of God's power.

Everyone in the Body has a role, no one has a title except the King of Kings. We are all brethren. Preaching to the lost is for every New Man in Christ, neither male nor female. If men won't preach, what's a girl to do if her Lord calls upon her? Many here on SI can name many women preachers held in high esteem by the Lord as He confirmed His word that they faithfully and boldly preached.

When did preaching the Gospel become "exercising authority over men"?

The question was "should she preach?" or "should women preach in the open air?" Thats a bit vague really but if that means the gospel to anyone then the answer is yes why not. If that means being called pastor and taking authority over men in the church then the answer is no. If that means being called an apostle then the answer is no. If that means being under a woman from the male perspective then the answer is no. Would I submit to a woman in authority in the church? No never on any grounds at any time or in any place I will not in the name of Christ the Lord.

As for the rubbish about "whats a girl to do" go and get some intelligence. Wake up and smell the coffee. The writing is on the wall. If you think that the things men have done are bad wait until you have women in full leadership with no possibility to resist them. Then you will know what true wickedness is. Think I am joking? I am not. If you believe that men have been cruel of themselves wait until they are led by a woman. You will comprehend true Satanic cruelly in that hour. When the end of this age comes with all of its terror it will not be an age without women in authority over men. It will be the only age in history with women in authority over men. Get real and stop playing with words. Women do not and are not stepping into the places where men have failed to walk. It's a lie. They have rebelled, murdered our children from their womb by the millions, and they have rejected their God given role in life. The women who have today sweetly slipped into leadership authority have done so on the back of murder and rebellion.

So what is there to do now then? The answer is nothing! It is already too late. I have washed my hands of all rebellion of men and women regardless. I will have nothing to do with it whatsoever. That is the end of it for me. When the hour comes I will curse it unto death and then go the way appointed to me.

Just for anyone who wants to be contentious with me I am speaking about women in positions of governmental authority in the churches. I am not speaking about women in authority in secular government or educational establishments. I am speaking about my attitude in the churches including China or any other place. If we truly believe that the mess we are in now is a reflection of God's will we have entered into madness.

1 Samuel 15:22,"…behold, to obey is better than sacrifice, and to heed than the fat of rams.

Verse 23, For rebellion is as the sin of witchcraft and stubbornness is as iniquity and idolatry…" Enid

I was just listening to a rabbi speaking on this very verse when you posted. He shared concerning Saul and the context of Samuel's words to Saul but drew one very important understanding about rebellion. In this instance rebellion of Saul was disobedience to a direct commandment. Albeit it is one of the most difficult commandments ever issued in the Scriptures it was nevertheless a commandment. Saul's rebellion that day in preserving the life of a king ensured that this line of worldly rebellion and continuous attacks on Israel would not be brought to an end until after the return of Judah from Babylon, at the time of the re-building of the temple. Imagine that. One disobedient man and nearly one thousand years of consequences!

Today we have weak minded men claiming that sisters can and ought to teach in the churches. This is so in defiance of the Scripture that to assert anything other is itself rebellion. The consequences of this will be for a thousand years as well. The verse you quote regarding the rejection of the Lord of those who have rebelled is a rejection from the millennial kingdom itself. We may not be able to believe this, but it has been said regardless. The warnings were all to much of a stumbling block themselves in the past and those who so warned and themselves caused stumbling had better be ready for rejection as well unless they repent. Nevertheless you cannot change the Scriptures. There were however many sound and reasonable warnings given over the past 400 years all on record and all to be comprehended if we have a mind to it.

Sadly the bitterness of experience of many women has been itself the root of rebellion. Whist the weak mindedness of many men in failing to both comprehend the bitterness as well the rebellion resulting from it has laid an authoritative basis for its continuance, the underlying commandment is unchanged. Now it is open, brazen and wicked. It is Satan as an angel of light and its end will be beyond anything we can comprehend. In 30 years in the church not one sister has ever attempted to take authority over me. In the same period I have seen destruction and devastation in every part of the UK brought about by weak minded men allowing sisters who are themselves bitter, with experience or political thinking to exercise authority as Mrs Pastor. Now it is becoming Mrs Elder. Qualifications devised in the corrupt imagination of men and women serving Satan more than they can imagine is sheer foolishness at best and open rebellion in many instances.

If you think that the gift of prophecy is always innocently ascribed or else exercised then you also fail to comprehend that the gift is within the grasp of the recipient. It is not a jaw clenching gift to speak without participation as though the body itself has become some mechanical devise. It is a gift which when exercised in a root of bitterness through pride and rebellion is more fully witchcraft than the flesh itself is capable off. As one pastor said to me 30 years ago when I asked why he was allowing a sister to exercise authority over all the male youth of the church, "it is because she is submitting to me and therefore she is not in rebellion". So be it I said. Now that same church is given over to complete foolishness and is virtually apostate. The sister has no husband. Their first born was taken and the husband is apostate. Wise up brethren.

Acts 1:14
These all with one mind were continually devoting themselves to prayer, along with the WOMEN, and Mary the mother of Jesus, and with His brothers.

Acts 3:3
And there appeared to them tongues as of fire distributing themselves, and they rested on each one of them.

Was the Holy Spirit being gender specific in giving the gift of tongues? If you say the gift of tongues was given only to men then you will have an issue with the next verse.

Acts 2:18
Even on my bondslaves, both MEN and WOMEN, I will in those days pour forth my Spirit. And they shall prophesy. (that is preach)

Acts 2:8,11
And how is it we each hear them in our in our own language to which we born.......we hear them in our own tongue speaking of the mighty deeds of God.

Saints I believe the OP posed the question can sisters preach in the open air? Can sisters preach the gospel to the lost? I do not believe the OP was addressing the issue of preaching in the "governmental" authority of the church. If this distiction cannot be made then this thread is going to have done confusion.

It would appear based on the verses from Acts 2 women can preach to the lost in the open air. And the context would probably suggest they were preaching in the open air.

If someone is going to dispute tbis then they had better be prepared to explain away Acts 2:18

Please note I am addressing the issue of women evangelist. Women preaching to the lost. Women going into missions. I do not see scripture forbidding this. The issue of women preaching or teaching in the church should be a separate thread.

Someone implied the Great Comission was given only to men because we have no evidence women were present. The text does not say either way. Only the Apostles were to go and make disciples of all nations. Is this forum prepared to show that this comission is not binding on every man and woman. Indeed some Calvinist argue this commission was only given to the Apostles and has no bearing on the believer today. I say chapter and verse please. For we are called to be witnesses, martyres if you will for Christ. And this means men and women.

Again the OP is asking can sisters evangelize and preach the gospel. From the evidence of scripture "yes" they can.

If you say no. Then this forum needs to pull out everything by Corrie Ten Boon and Jackie Pullenger. I also ask, is anyone prepared to say Elisabeth Elliot was disobeying God when she went to preach the gospel to those Indians who martyred her husband? Be careful in answering that last question.

Bearmaster.

Caps are for emphasis only. Verses are from the NASB Update.

I appreciated your comments Greg, thanks for being open to the Lord and His leading. "Likewise, wives, be subject to your own husbands, so that even if some do not obey the word, they may be won without a word by the conduct of their wives,when they see your respectful and pure conduct."

The husband should be spiritual and not carnal. I have failed as a husband in this area in too many ways to count, by being carnal. Christ is our example as a perfect husband and He laid down His life for His bride (i.e., this is the betrothal period too), He ALWAYS did the will of the Father and that what He SAW the Father doing, was meek and lowly in heart, had authority from above which was earned through suffering (i.e., Jesus authority was not positional, but spiritual). This is what I/we need as husbands and since there is no marriage in heaven other than between Christ and His Bride; and since Christ is the Head and is using women in the West to do His perfect will... Yes, women are used by God to teach and preach with the Holy Spirit.

May I learned from the Father and may He use our faithful sisters, who are obedient in deed and truth to His perfect will, break and humble me/us until we are expressing the true nature of Christ in this dark hour and preserving the unity of the Spirit in the bind of peace.

Lord have mercy on me a sinner! -Kenneth

Soloman I will not attempt to define prophesy but will describe one aspect of how it was used in Acts 2.

Acts 2:11 says that those who were baptized in the Holy Spirit (Acts 2:3) were speaking of the mighty deeds of God. This would be prophesying or testifying of the Lord Jesus Christ and his deeds.

The implication that women were involved in declaring the mighty deeds of God is quoted by Peter out of Joel. Being that in the last days God was pouring out His Spirit on nen and women. And they would prophesy. My take they, male and female, would testify and preach Jesus.

My thoughts.

Bearmaster.

There were about 120 brothers and sisters gathered together in the upper room This is established in Acts 1:14-15. So here are some questions to chew on.

In Acts 2:3 when the Holy Spirit came to rest on each one. Who was being baptized? All 120 or just the 12 Apostles. If you say just the !2.Apostles then a case can be made for men evangelist only. However this would do violence to the text and there is still Acts 2-18 to deal with.

Just trying to muddy up the wsters and provoke some thought being the resident heretic from the bear cave.

Bearmaster.

1 Timothy 2:11,"Let a woman learn in silence with all submission.

Verse 12, "And I do not permit a woman to teach or to have authority over a man, but to be in silence."

I am glad the sister quoted these verses. I noticed in both of them that "submission" is in the first verse and "authority" is in the second verse.

In another verse in 1 Corinthians women are allowed to prophesy in the local church meeting. I believe sisters can share the scriptures as prophesying but must be under the authority of brothers. To not be under the authority of brothers who are anointed to lead is against God's ways.

God choose 12 men not women to be apostles. This is God's way. The man is always the head of the home. Never the woman.

There were not women apostles though some try and argue this with a few names in scripture and early church history. When there was a women "leader" in scripture it was a time of apostasy in Judges: Deborah.

But there are times when men are not anointed for leadership and in these cases God has raised up women leaders for a season or longer.

Saints I believe the OP posed the question can sisters preach in the open air? Can sisters preach the gospel to the lost? I do not believe the OP was addressing the issue of preaching in the "governmental" authority of the church. If this distinction cannot be made then this thread is going to have done confusion. Blaine

The question at the root of the OP by Doug may well have been a question to do with sisters preaching in the open air. If that had been the sum of the post then it really would be a simple matter to answer it. However the body of the OP was:

"The book is about "should women preach in the open air" I believe and his study of the word on this position. ”¨”¨There is a great move in the body of Christ to call women "pastor" and give them a title and a role in the body of Christ.”¨”¨I talked with my pastor about this and he is of the belief that a women that is in a "governmental" (Authority) position in the church over men is not Biblical.”¨”¨We left a church many years back because the senior pastor's wife was going to "co-pastor" with Him at the local body.”

In view of this it is both reasonable and necessary to answer the whole thread and not one part. It is particularly important because of the real and substantive implication and effect of sisters taking authority or else being given governmental authority in the local churches. I realise that much of the issue here is divisive, but that is nothing compared to the consequence of confusing missionary work with local church authority. Nor is it as divisive as being naive enough to imagine that there is no intention to render the local churches gender free for a purpose of Satan. How easily we are deluded and deceived! We quote Galatians 3:28 and we imagine we have settled the issue spiritually and thereafter it is a simple matter of finding supporting scriptures. In this we do not see that we are in the world, in a field with both wheat and tares, in the kingdom of God and in Christ also. As long as we are in this field we have to live according to the reality of this field.

Many years ago I spent some time with a brother who was formerly a senior clergyman in the Anglican Church. He had become a local nondenominational pastor having been asked to do so by a number of brethren. He shared an account of three sisters who were very supportive of him in many ways and I could see that he was very grateful for their agreement and support in ministry in the local church. He was a single man. Some months after this time of sharing, this brother wrote me a short note with the words "the church is done to death. Need to take in and not give out”. The bottom line had been a simple one. As long as he didn’t address the issue of local church authority these three sisters supported him. Not only was his well being assured but the church was at peace and flourished. When he preached just once on the need for the sisters to submit to the authority of their husbands and the eldership of the church he was hated. These sisters had invested so much influence in this brother that when the time came for him to break that influence the consequences were devastating. The effect was that within just 3 months they reduced a 14 year work to nothing and divided and scattered the whole church. I know of numerous instances of this and some accounts are truly devilish.

How is this possible? I could tell you from a Satanic point of view and you would be both shocked and offended. Yet reality is what it appears to be sometimes and cannot be changed by weak mindedness and a lack of discernment. Today there is one primary reason why the church is not being done to death in this way. It is because those in authority have given authority to sisters in advance by covenant. This is both to have authority over all the members of the local church but also to exercise that authority without question. No matter what these sisters say it would make no difference whatsoever because those in authority have already given the whole ground over to deception. In short the churches are increasingly apostate. Frankly it matters little anymore whether a sister is given the whole of the authority or not. The deed is already done and the outcome is end time apostasy at the threshold of the door. So long as you are under such an apostate church you will be ill affected yourself.

In contrast I do preach on the streets with sisters who I know have as much a love for the Lord as any one else and their contribution is as valid and meaningful as any brother. Here is the rub for the one who thinks himself wise. These sisters are amongst the brethren they were not biological males. Junia was amongst the apostles she was not an apostle. In the local churches these sisters are submissive and hold their tongues in the churches trusting the Lord according to His governance of His church. They are neither blind nor lacking in discernment. Nor do they desire to rule over the man.

Holding their tongues means in simplicity not seeking to direct doctrine or teaching. Not exercising governmental authority over men with a view to both spiritual as well as governmental authority. No man can resist local church government regardless of who holds that place. Nor ought governance to be confused with spiritual authority. The one is to rule and order the local church for a reason of protecting the flock. The other is to serve and to bear witness for the upbuilding of the flock. Only in the male (elder) can these two things, governance and spiritual authority, come into the same outworking. In a sister they have to be separate. The separation is one that God Himself has ordained and ordered in the church so that apart from an exceptional working of God no sister can have governmental authority over the brothers including their wives and daughters. Otherwise you have made ruin of the very governance of nations and peoples as well. Spiritual authority on the other hand is a gift of life in Christ Jesus outworked in all brethren, both male and female for the benefit of all. Those who overstep that boundary have already made ruin of their calling. Who in their right mind would not thank God for a godly sister who in humility and meekness, and by example and prayer, thought the very best of you and sought the best for you in Christ? Who in a spirit of discernment would not reject heresy and foolishness be it from a male or a female?

"Why does God then [say] that "women are to be silent?" What is the context here? " Doug.

I met a sister recently who had been troubling a pastor for months. She was a gifted woman and in the end I realised that she had a prophetic spirit. I suggested that she needed to comprehend the gift and the calling in her life and hold her tongue. With me from the outset she was in a right attitude and she knew that there was going to be nowhere for her to go if she started trying to manipulate me. She didn’t even try and I spoke the truth to her concerning her own activities. In the end she cannot hold her tongue because she is embittered with the pastor because he failed to comprehend her weakness and the hurt in her life. Had this sister not been gifted at all then there would have been no issue in the church. It would have been a private matter between her and her husband in the home. But precisely because she was a gift to the body she had to hold her tongue. She ought to have exercised a spirit of prophecy in fear of the Lord then she would have been fruitful indeed. In speaking as she did she was putting the gift of God to an ill use and destroying her hearers. Herein lies the root of rebellion. It is in the pain and bitterness of life and the injustices which are levelled against us when we are weak and must submit to others. For wives and for children this is especially true. It has been ordained by God and it is a consequence of what happened in Eden. When men are bitter because of their childhood they too become rebellious. The only remedy is repentance and forgiveness. Having been set on the right path the only possible continuance is to yield willingly to the government of God wherever it is found.

In contrast every gifted male ought to speak in the churches and so speak as to question that which is harmful to the flock in the fear of the Lord. The difference between speaking and being silent is the difference between questioning authority openly (male) in the churches and exercising a gift in submission through the gift of prophecy (female). The open questioning needs no hidden part. The gift of prophecy on the other hand reveals the heart. It may well be heard by all, both male and female but who will understand it if it is by the Spirit and speaks to the hidden heart of just one man? In such a circumstance the gift is fruitful in that the man is made aware of his error and the sister has retained a right attitude. Men have to be heads of their own households from which households are elders come into visibility. To question elders and instruct them or to desire to be an elder as a sister you have in effect questioned every household and taken authority over every man. That is rebellion by any measure.

Elisabeth Elliot was invited by the South American Indians that killed her husband to come back and teach them the way of Christ. She did and her ministry was fruitful. Many nen in that tribe were saved. So was she in rebellion to God?

Jackie Pullenger went to Asia to preach the gospel. She witnessed to many including men. So is she in rebellion to God?

A young woman gifted in linguistics and translation applies to Whcliff to do translation work. So is she in rebellion to God?

Wondering what the forum thinks in this.

Bearmaster.

PS
There are some sho say women are only meant to be wives ans mothers. That single women should not be in missions or evangelism.

This lady preaching to these religious leaders was
absolutely anointed! Rarely have I heard anyone stand up so boldly for the truth like she does here.

Gianna Jessen Abortion Survivor in Australia Part 1.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kPF1FhCMPuQ

Gianna Jessen Abortion Survivor in Australia Part 2.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k8B1nKGIAeg

Jewish Rabbis, Muslim Imams and Christian Pastors.

I read profiles of the persecuted church in preparation for our Persecution Watch prayer call. In these reports there will be instances of a husband being arrested or martyred who heads up a house church. In which case the wife will step in to lead the church. I know we can pull out 1Tim. 2:12 and say she is in rebellion. But if this sister is the only mature saint to lead this house felliwship in a restricted nation who am I to judge. Of course this sister herself knows she herself could be arrested or martyred.

We can pontificate behind our key boards on the role of women in the church while we have freedom. But it is a different story when one is willing shed their blood for Christ. I have heard it said that one hour in the presence of someone who has gone through persecution will expose the shallowness if our faith.

Bearmaster.

It is just as I predicted. And I am no prophet. This thread has confusion. The OP asked if women can preach the gospel in the open air? Can women evangelize to the open masses? Yet this question has not been adequately addressed or ignored altogether.

I think it has been established beyond a shadow of a doubt that women are not to preach or excercise authority over men in the conotext of the church. By now we should all know 1 Tim. 2:12-13 by heart.

But the question still needs to be addressed. Can Christian sisters evangelize to the lost? Can Christian sisters go into missions? Can women preach the gospel to the unconverted?

Does anyone have the courage to address this question in a fair way from God's word? I for one would like to know what others think about women preaching, sharing, testifying of Christ in the open air.

Will someone with Christ centered courage and s crucified religious spirit please address the question the OP posed.

Bearmaster.

I asked it a little earlier but let's try it again.ӬӬYou, and many, stateӬ
Quote:

I think it has been established beyond a shadow of a doubt that women are not to preach or excercise authority over men in the conotext of the church. By now we should all know 1 Tim. 2:12-13 by heart.

I again ask ..... EXACTLY AND SPECIFICALLY where in this verse is it implied that Paul is talking about this happening at a gathering of believers?

If it IS being applied to corporate meetings of believers (which I see no evidence for in the text at all) ,but IF it is, then it is in clear contradiction to the scriptures in Joel, Acts, and 1 Corinthians.

I think there is certainly more than a "shadow of doubt" here. Perhaps entire theologies based upon assumptions to the text rather than the actual text itself. It must interpret itself... not us force it into a theology we have been raised with or embraced. Solomon101

1 Timothy 3:14”“15 (NASB95)

"I am writing these things to you, hoping to come to you before long; but in case I am delayed, I write so that you will know how one ought to conduct himself in the household of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and support of the truth.”

Brother, most commentaries and intros to 1 Timothy say the letter was written to instruct Timothy how to govern the church st Ephesus.

The verses Armkelly quoted are the theme of the whole book from chapters 1 thru 6.

Bearmaster.

Can women preach the gospel to the unconverted? YES, in personal conversations and at outreaches, as long as she does not preach publically in a church gathering setting.

A sister cannot tell her testimony to the congregation?

To some people, testifying is preaching.

So, what is preaching? Do you maybe mean "teaching" the Word to men?

Perhaps, women just aren't supposed to counsel men what to do in the congregation (publicly). (Though a lot of husbands are grateful for their wife's private counsel). Private is one thing, public is quite another. Yes?

We seem to be tying ourselves up in knots trying to draw fine lines between what we think teaching, preaching, testifying, witnessing, etc., etc, is.

Who was that sister in the NT that was an apostle?

The amazing thing is one of the best messages I heard in this forum on Biblical holiness was given by Nancy Leigh DeMoss, a sister in Christ. She was speaking st a Campus Crusade conference. Was this in a church context? I don't know. Was she preaching, teaching, testifying, exhorting when nen were present? I honestly don't know. Somewhere near the middle of the message I was on my face before God repenting and those questions were far from my mind.

Now may be time for me to stand down from this thread and listen to that sister's message again.

Bearmaster.

What can be said Solomon other than to ask you what you are talking about with regard to the issue of authority in the churches? What do you believe yourself? Could you simply not say it plainly and be done with it? Look here is my own understanding of what Paul was teaching Timothy in his letter.

_______________________________________________________________________________

Men have to be heads of their own households from which households are elders come into visibility. To question elders and instruct them or to desire to be an elder as a sister you have in effect questioned every household and taken authority over every man.

_______________________________________________________________________________

I am fully persuaded that this statement of mine carries the centrality of meaning or if you prefer the reason why Paul made such clear and unequivocal statements regarding authority between men and women. This reason goes back to the very beginning of time as we know it and has to do with rebellion of a Covering Cherub and very little indeed to do with either men or women as we imagine it.

Consider this Solomon. Whatever you mean to say, say it well because it is to your account. Say it plainly. If you have a mind to overthrow the creation of God then do it openly. You may be rejected by many, but many more will flock to hear it and wonder that no one has said it so well before time. Let rebellion of men be rebellion and not some half hearted thing. Let it be to destruction and not some lame attempt to build a house without permission or plans. If you are going to remove the only physical restraint of God from the lives of men and women then do so in the full knowledge that its outcome will be adoration and wonder by all the rebels of the earth and Satan will honour you and exalt you in the halls of the North. They that dwell therein will themselves applaud and laugh with astonishment. Then they will pass into silence and straining towards him they will whisper to their own disobedient hearts "who is this man?". This will be the totality of your reward if you are that man.

The angels are looking on Solomon and in the conceit of their hidden titles, they await for the day when the purpose of the Father on this earth, is set aside for one hour. A time when the church itself casts off its cover and proclaims its own imaginings, as though they were the true ordinances of God. Then all hell will break forth from every deep and vile place and the sons of God will be cast down in finality of their own choosing and a man will declare himself the "Christ of God". They that thought to change the very creation itself, setting a woman in the place of a man will have in finality given over that which was in their true possession, even their own bodies and souls to the god of this world with great joy and praise in blasphemy of the Father and His true Christ. No longer will they flee in terror of devils but will fear Christ in finality comprehending what they have done.

That is the measure of it Solomon. It is not about bickering over mere words.

You asked me what I understood to be the meaning of prophecy!

I would say to you Solomon if you do not yet comprehend the beginning of rebellion how will you understand the end of it? If you do not understand the beginning nor the end then you have understood nothing of it at all. In Christ we understand the beginning of obedience and in Christ we understand the fullness of obedience. It is by obedience that Christ prepared Himself for the cross unto death. And through the cross and the shedding of His blood the Father purchased unto Himself men from every tongue, tribe and nation.

Your comprehension of women and in particular Satan's ambition and choosing to address Eve in the garden is sorely lacking. I am glad for your sake that it is lacking. Yet everyone who is being led of the Holy Spirit cannot contradict realities which lay at the back of why Paul taught Timothy that it was necessary to hold the members of the church to the order of the creation of God, both in the church and in the home. A reality which is implicit in the creation of Adam from the earth and Eve from Adam. I can assure you that Satan understands this thing very well and at every turn seeks to overthrow this reality. Some sisters are exceptional and the Lord uses them in exceptional ways within their current frame. They alone must cover their heads and submit even though they will one day walk in the presence of God……yet in this hour they must submit to the order of God for the sake of the angels. Every generation and every household and every member is involved in this reality. Being in Christ does not release us of it as long as we live in this body of flesh.

1 Corinthians 14:34”“40 (NASB95)

The women are to keep silent in the churches; for they are not permitted to speak, but are to subject themselves, just as the Law also says. If they desire to learn anything, let them ask their own husbands at home; for it is improper for a woman to speak in church. Was it from you that the word of God first went forth? Or has it come to you only? If anyone thinks he is a prophet or spiritual, let him recognize that the things which I write to you are the Lord’s commandment. But if anyone does not recognize this, he is not recognised. Therefore, my brethren, desire earnestly to prophesy, and do not forbid to speak in tongues. But all things must be done properly and in an orderly manner.

There is no issue of being right or wrong Solomon. There is nothing I have said in my last post or pretty well all my posts which I could not show you in print by brethren going back many years. It is a difference of emphasis which eludes you not the content. As to the rest of your comments I am just fine Solomon. I have no issues with my childhood nor with my present life. I am the husband of one wife, the father of children and a faithful friend and brother to those I know and who know me.

I am disappointed that you are not able to say what you mean regarding authority between men and women more plainly. It cannot be both liberty to do as we please and restraint. It is either one or the other. True liberty is in the inner man Solomon not in the outer one. You are wrong with regard to accusations. They were not accusation Solomon they were questions. As for the more difficult things I said………I know them first hand Solomon. I am not a pastor, elder, preacher, evangelist, deacon….. or for that matter nor do I seek to direct any church or anyone in contradiction of their elders and pastors. You are right about one thing however. You do not know me.

My advice Solomon don't mock men who you do not know!

This is perhaps the fourth, or so, time I have asked a pretty straight froward question on a thread over the last couple of years. You have always come back with accusatory and derogatory tones while not answering the question. I am persuaded that the questions do not exceed your ability to comprehend ... so it is something different. Solomon101

At least we can both count Solomon!

https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=45012&forum=40&start=30&viewmode=flat&order=0

https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=48155&forum=35&start=80&viewmode=flat&order=0

https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=48377&forum=36

https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=48388&forum=36&start=10&19

The "something different" Solomon is clearly and unequivocally stated in three of these threads.

Based on the direction of this thread then the forum better pull the messages by Jackie Pullenger, Corrie Ten Boon, and Nancy DeMoss.

Bear.

I got saved reading "Freed For Life" by Rita Nightingale.

****The Lord works in Mysterious Ways!***** Edit Addition & Alteration

"I have often thought about her since that time and wondered about how the Lord used her in the former Walled City of Hong Kong. Whatever the meaning may be one thing is for certain we are blind and do not see the reality of what is upon us and the rebellion upon which it has been laid down. Do I take that to mean that my own conversion was founded on rebellion? I won't even trouble to answer that!"

I have often though about Rita Nightingale since my conversion and for some unknown reason confused her with Jackie Pullinger whose book I read at the same time, in making this post. Still it has given me a chance to find the article I posted below by Jackie. It's a good article and goes a long way to making sense of the confusion which is being exhibited in this thread. At least in my thinking anyway. It doesn't touch upon the issue I have been speaking about but that's ok, it is helpful however I believe!

Because we are called to sow in peace we miss the preparation for the declaration that the war has been won. The enemies children have no news of it and still want to murder us. Who will go up and declare peace peace in a time of destruction? Only the false!

Because I love this dear sister!

God's Word to Women By Jackie Pullinger

THE RELEASE OF WOMEN INTO MINISTRY

"We came to an interesting time a few years ago before I was married and our kids were mainly drug addicts. They began to desire marriage and were married in our "para-organization," or church, or whatever you want to call it. Sometimes I said the words. Sometimes someone else did. I began to notice something quite distressing. In nearly every single instance, I could see that in the marriage the woman was going to lead spiritually. In nearly every situation, I would see she was going to be the one to say, "Let's pray, or let's talk." I thought, this is not right. It's 'supposed to be the other way around. What should we do? We kept coming upon these bits about man being the "head” of the woman, and it didn't look quite right where we were.
In nearly every marriage, she was going to do more praying than he. Also, she was going to do a greater amount of the work. Formally, he was supposed to be the "head.” This always seemed to be the wrong way around. That was when I searched the whole of Scripture to find out the place of man and woman and their relationship to one another. What I'm going to do is take you through some scripture which gave me an understanding of manhood and womanhood………………..

http://godswordtowomen.org/Pullinger.htm

I could say it ought to read "The Release of Men into Ministry!"

Read it and you will understand why! Not an easy read at all. Easily misunderstood and easily sentimentalised. Do none of those things and pray with all of your heart and trust God.

Twisting my words, notwithstanding, when The Lord calls upon a women, what is she to do? Same thing that is expected of anyone, obey Him.

God has a way of shattering our ignorance of who He is and how He operates, by always choosing the "weak" to confound the "strong".

And yet, He is not trying to confound those in the Church who perceive themselves as something, He is trying to educate them.

What was Corrie, Jackie, Elizabeth and others to do when their Lord called upon them? Will you stand in judgement regarding the Lord's servant because of your limited understanding?

We dismiss many words from the Lord (through His servants) to us based on bigotry. We close our spiritual ears based on our perception of an "improper" vessel.

We need to tune our ears to truth and stop walking by sight and prejudices. The Lord may speak to you through a child or woman. Can you hear The Lord or will you let your perverted theology get in the way? If all we can be is an ass, then He may speak to us through one.

Just-In get a life brother and read the article I posted above. Search the site in the search facility and see what I have said previously. Then you might begin to understand what warfare is all about. It is not being "understood" or liked or anything else it is obedience. Mine is to lay waste and pull down. I have seem men not woman go to the grave and I have spoken the words. I have no difficulty understanding manhood and I am as sweet and kind to my wife and children as any man can be. I also speak plainly and hold them before the Lord daily and have done for nearly 30 years. Please don't keep asserting things sentimentally. What is needed is reality and substance if anyone is to understand this profound issue which is before us. It has to be the full reality of both consequences and outcomes of pain and suffering and death and hell. It is not a sociological exercise.

Brother whereas I am not advocating women elders or exercising authority over nen. Are you prepared to tell a sister in a restricted nation whose husband is martyred or in prison that she is in rebellion against God. That being because she leads a house church network. This sister stepped into lead because no nature brother was available.

Please do not dismiss this as hypothetical. I read a few instances where this is happening and increasing on a scale because of increased persecution.

Bearmaster.

Greg posted at the beginning of this thread that women had an active role in leading in the oersecuted church. Mainly in China.

I, for one, am not prepared to say these sisters are in rebellion. For the simple fact I am not paying the price as they are.. I am not going to say a sister in Columbia is in rebellion when she stepped in to lead her husband's church. After she saw him brutally murdered by FARC guerillas. Only she herself was martytred a few years later.

We can sit behind our keyboards and expound our theology in the relative comfort in the west. But spend time in the shoes of our persecuted brethren. We nay have to rethink our theology.

My thoughts only.

Bearmaster.

We are but vessels and the vessel that is willing to die so that Christ may live in them, can do all things through Him. And the Lord will not turn away from one that puts everything on the altar for Him.

Bearmaster,

Good thread, yet there are many deaf ears and we have only scratched the surface with short anectodal stories of the innumerable amount of sisters on whose behalf the Lord has shown Himself strong. Here is one that always touches me. Sabina telling her husband not to play the coward in front of 4,000 delegates.

"During World War II, Richard and Sabina saw an opportunity for evangelism among the occupying German forces. They preached in the bomb shelters and rescued Jewish children out of the ghettos. Richard and Sabina were repeatedly arrested and beaten and, at least once, nearly executed.

Sabina lost her Jewish family in Nazi concentration camps.
In 1945 Romanian Communists seized power and a million "invited" Russian troops poured into the country. Pastor Wurmbrand ministered to his oppressed countrymen and engaged in bold evangelism to the Russian soldiers.

That same year, Richard and Sabina Wurmbrand attended the Congress of Cults organized by the Romanian Communist government. Many religious leaders came forward to praise Communism and to swear loyalty to the new regime. Sabina said, "Richard, stand up and wash away this shame from the face of Christ." Richard warned, "If I do so, you’ll lose your husband."

"I don't wish to have a coward as a husband," she replied. Thus Richard declared to the 4,000 delegates, whose speeches were broadcast to the whole nation, that their duty is to glorify God and Christ alone."

She is pretty much telling him what's what, isn't she? But, Richard was not insulted. He was hearing the Lord Jesus through his wife. The mistake many men make today is that they do not respect a sister's walk with the Lord and therefore have little respect for what God can do through a woman. Though we have centuries now of testimonies of great servants of the Lord that are sisters. Through unfeigned love for their Lord, they have shown the principalities and powers what Christ can do through them.

The Lord looks to and fro throughout the earth not for males, but for vessels whose heart is perfect towards Him and that He may show Himself strong on their behalf. 2 Ch 16:9

Men that repudiate what great things God does through sisters, are little men... jealous men...weak men, no matter to what great lengths they go to convince everyone of the contrary.

It is astounding to me, in the light of centuries of testimonies, the church still acts with worldly competitiveness.

Brother whereas I am not advocating women elders or exercising authority over nen. Are you prepared to tell a sister in a restricted nation whose husband is martyred or in prison that she is in rebellion against God. That being because she leads a house church network. This sister stepped into lead because no nature brother was available.

Please do not dismiss this as hypothetical. I read a few instances where this is happening and increasing on a scale because of increased persecution. Blaine

I can only assume that what I have shared is completely and utterly confusing or else being confused. Either way this is going nowhere.

Just for the record Blaine I don't instruct other mens wives or women in general. It's not my place and I don't even try to do it. What I have been speaking about here in this thread appears to be beyond reasonable understanding. I will have to work it out without expressing it any further in this forum.

………..yet there are many deaf ears….Just-In

Just for the record Just-In it's not our ears which are at fault it's our eyes. If only we could read!

Andrew I respect your stand for the truth and am in agreement. I only want to suggest that there are areas where women are leading that have God's approval. I am speaking in the context if the persecuted church.

I find since moderating Persecution Watch I cannot be as dogmatic on some issues as I used to be. It could be as Just-in says that when one is willing to lay it on the alter God does not turn away from that vessel despite the imperfections of their theology.

I remeber an article in a VOM magazine when a medical missionary said that Nigerian saints may not be be able to articulate the finer points of theology. But when an Islamic extremist points a gun of nachetti at then and say recite the Islamic creed. And they say NO that Jesus only is Lord. Suddenly that saints theology becomes very, very deep.

Brother I do not understand and see through a glass darkly. I do not disagree with you. And appreciate your stand for the truth.

In the end we will never truly understand til we get to heaven.

Your brother in Christ.

Blaine aka Bearmaster

Blaine I have no doubt at all that there are many circumstances around the world in which there is no opportunity or need to assert anything more than what is visible. If that means a sister leading a church because she alone has the courage to do so then I would walk over hot coals for that sister and love her in Christ with all of my heart.

Such circumstances however do not exists in the USA nor in Canada, Nor central Europe, Nor Australia nor in fact anywhere where there is no exceptional circumstance. All of these wonderful accounts of sisters which have been raised, all have one thing in common. They are all exceptional circumstances.

Beyond that Blaine it is only necessary to comprehend in contrast to these things the liberties of women as defined in Law in various nations throughout the places I have mentioned. Laws which have nothing to do with brave women (though in concept it is claimed to be so) and their extraordinary service to the Lord Jesus. It has been entirely predicated on rebellion due principally to abuses of men in society and increased wealth and education. It has been driven most especially in Europe, the UK and latterly the USA.

Despite what we may think the courage of sisters whether in Hong Kong, Romania or Europe during the second world war, or for that matter remote tribes in Brazil is not a basis for throwing away the scriptures and the centrality of their meaning and purpose. I have no respect whatsoever for those men who do not recognise that when they take so much pride in the woman and her efforts they are simply taking pride in themselves. The very substance in flesh from which the woman was taken is the male. It is in reality an act of self interest. At its root lies the same reality of temptation which faced the innocent Adam in Eden when his beloved and perfect wife was deceived and offered him to eat. "Know you not. When a man loves his wife he loves himself". No sister ought to have authority over a man in the home or in the churches. In the West and in other places as well it is without excuse. In other places it is clearly necessary for a variety of reasons.

Anti-Christ is arising in Europe not China. His visibility will be in Europe and not China. In any event he is coming to make peace in Israel.

Most of the sisters who were pioneers of women in ministry were pioneers in circumstances in which there was no excuse or reason for it. They rebelled and there is no getting away with it. Men failed and there is no getting away from it. Satan is rubbing his hands and there will be Hell to pay for it. Its pure mindlessness on the part of some to imagine otherwise.

Andrew I say AMEN. God bless you as you continue to contend for the faith.

Blaine

The following is an update on the life and experience of Sarah Faith Schlissel Hodges.

Now married with seven children. Sarah married and later converted to Roman Catholicism. By the way the article posted by Savannah was written when Sarah was 15 years old. It has been used many times for both wicked as well as good purposes and of itself draws out a meaning which all of us need to grasp when we speak about authority between men and women. It has to be further said that the relationship between a daughter and her father is not the same as a relationship between the husband and his wife. It is precisely on this point that heavy handed patriarchal teaching fails to draw a proper spiritual reality. The daughter is not a joint heir of grace together with her father. The wife on the other hand is a joint heir of grace together with her husband. Wake up brethren if we ourselves don't get it right as husbands we will certainly fail as fathers as well and we will fail in the church too. It is our responsibility and we had better learn to take that responsibility seriously and not blame our wives and children because we ourselves won't work it our before the Lord. Similarly to fail to comprehend the reality of the world in which we live, the activity of Satan and the undoubted rebellion of many women, will give rise to unimaginable frustration. Thats it I think. Praise God!

_______________________________________________________________________________
Sarah says:

August 9, 2013 at 11:36 am

I very much appreciate your kindness in the treatment of my article written in my youth. It is so rare to see such fairness in reporting. Truly, at the time, I was part of such a loving family and sheltered to the extent that it never occurred to me that there were horrible and control-seeking men who would take the doctrines of "patriarchy” and run so far with them. My life was a living context of the *responsibilities* of the father toward the children: to love, protect, nurture and encourage in their own path. That is the reality I and my sisters experienced. It was not until later in life (after my marriage and more exposure to the harsh world) that I even comprehended how awful it could be for a young lady whose father would take my words, so divorced from the context of my reality, and make her life a living hell. I have since met some of these women and I am friends with them. I deeply regret that my words were used as such, and thank you for also pointing out how young I was at the time. Things seem so black and white when you’re 15 and naive. Of course, since becoming Catholic, I no longer hold that ‘ownership’ theory of paternity, and I’ve considered (even quite recently after being quoted by Rachel Held Evans in her book) writing a retraction/explanation of sorts. The only thing holding me back was the thought that I’d be dragged through the mud again (which is still happening on patriarchy-bashing boards today) in my current role. But it seems you somehow found a way to link my blog/ new persona with the old, so I guess that point may be moot. Anyway, you’ve given me another push to distance myself from that movement which is apparently still hurting people today. (And which my family of origin was never part of. If anything, my dad is a feminist.)

Thanks again.

From http://strangefigures.wordpress.com/2013/07/15/talking-back-to-patriarchy-part-3-it-all-comes-down-to-authority/

_______________________________________________________________________________

Sarah's blog site is called Socks on the Line and can be found here.

http://44socksontheline.wordpress.com

Link Fixed

A Dichotomy of Meaning or A Unity of Purpose

1 Timothy 2:11”“15 (NASB95)
A woman must quietly receive instruction with entire submissiveness. But I do not allow a woman to teach or exercise authority over a man, but to remain quiet. For it was Adam who was first created, and then Eve. And it was not Adam who was deceived, but the woman being deceived, fell into transgression. But women will be preserved through the bearing of children if they continue in faith and love and sanctity with self-restraint.

1 Timothy 3:1”“5 (NASB95)
It is a trustworthy statement: if any man aspires to the office of overseer, it is a fine work he desires to do. An overseer, then, must be above reproach, the husband of one wife, temperate, prudent, respectable, hospitable, able to teach, not addicted to wine or pugnacious, but gentle, peaceable, free from the love of money. He must be one who manages his own household well, keeping his children under control with all dignity (but if a man does not know how to manage his own household, how will he take care of the church of God?),

1 Timothy 3:14”“15 (NASB95)
I am writing these things to you, hoping to come to you before long; but in case I am delayed, I write so that you will know how one ought to conduct himself in the household of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and support of the truth.

It seems to me that there is an undeniable link between the home and the church. Yet it would be wholly wrong to say that the home is a church even when every member were a believer. The home can be a meeting place for the church and clearly when the family meets to worship and pray they are doing so because they are believers. Yet imagine if in that context a son were to begin teaching and did so in order to establish doctrine with the view that this doctrine would be taken up as a commandment of the Lord to his father’s house. In this arrangement the father of the house would be required to submit to his own son. Some would no doubt say that this could happen and that there ought to be no problem with it. After all if the son is saying nothing more than he has been taught by his father he can be saying nothing more than his father already agrees with.

What then if the father says to his beloved son that he ought not to become his teacher and should remain quiet? Should the son disobey his father and press on or should he obey his father and submit? He may be the first born son and he may be a fully grown man, yet what ought he to do in such a circumstance? He may be more gifted in the Lord than his own father yet he is commanded by God to honour his father and mother!

Given that 1 Timothy 2:11-15, 3:1-5 & 3:14-15 all have to do with the household of God which does not speak of the home at all, one would have to ask seriously what the relationship is between the house and the church. A house may be a godly household and the church may meet in a house. Yet the godly household is the household of a man and no matter how perfect it may be it is not the local church. The church cannot meet on the basis of heads of households not matter if that head is a man or a woman. This is because the head of the household of God (the church) is Christ Himself. No one else can take that place and if they tried to do so they have already rebelled whether they comprehended it or not. And yet in a single instance of Scripture there are those who would claim just such a thing. In doing so it is clear that the relationship between the house and the church is not understood. The Scripture is Colossians 4:15. "Greet the brethren who are in Laodicea and also Nympha and the church that is in her house.”

It is for this reason that I have used a from of words to describe this reality.

"Men have to be heads of their own households from which households are elders come into visibility. To question elders and instruct them or to desire to be an elder as a sister you have in effect questioned every household and taken authority over every man.”

The difficulty lays in the fact that the church has historically met on the wrong grounds. It has met on the ground of visibility and heads of households and not on the grounds of Christ as the head. To make a separation between this wrong understanding and the necessity of truth one needs to simply recognise that the relationship between the local church and the household is a relationship between elders and the flock of Christ. Simply being male is not of itself a qualification for anything other than marriage to one woman. Having the church meet in your house does not make you an elder of the local church.

In making this statement I have tried to show in simplicity the essence of meaning as to what this connection between family life and the church really is. I have done this without actually saying what that connection is beyond its physical meaning. So that it is therefore reasonable to assume that the meaning is hidden. It may even be reasonable to say that I am unwilling to say it fully. In fact I would go as far as to say that the meaning is "hidden” in the Scriptures as well and will only be discerned and understood by the one who heart is set on honouring Christ even above themselves. The more prescriptive we are the more dead truth becomes.

Even though both of these truths (the home and head of households & the local church and elders) have been explained in their several parts I can see that this has led to a great deal of confusion because there are two truths being presented and one spiritual reality of purpose which is intended. I think that it is difficult to reconcile these two truths spiritually and therefore this would ordinarily give rise to an understanding of either one truth or the other truth, just according to the need of the moment or else circumstance. In this it is all too easy to grasp that which is natural (Patriarchy) or else that which is governmental (Elders & Deacons) and miss that which is intended (Spiritual Fathers). In doing this we are not necessarily contradicting the Scriptures, we are simply pressing it according to a need. That may, from time to time, be a need to protect a sister or a brother who we perceive needs to be supported. Or is may from time to time be a need to make a defence of the faith itself because in pressing a single truth at the expense of the unity of faith, we are in effect pressing a heresy. If we press heresy too often we are in danger of becoming an heretic. Then we will find that other brethren will be compelled to reject the heretic, even though they have only spoken that which is true of itself.

Not easy and yet not necessarily rare either. On this subject there are many many believers who feel a very strong need to separate themselves as a mechanism of rejecting just such a presentation, as is evident in this thread. In fact the problem is implicit in the very root of the OP itself. This is not a criticism it is an observable fact if the thing is read properly and thoughtfully.

It has to be the case however that if these two truths are substantive then they must be evident throughout the Scriptures. They cannot be found in isolation. They are simply too important for that to be possible. Indeed it is likely that they are implicit in every passage of the bible. In God’s dealings with individual men and their wives and children, in nations, kingdoms, governments, principalities, powers and in every thread of the creation itself, they are implicit and can be seen working themselves out. It is in how we work that out ourselves that we will either fall or stand. It is such a fundamental thing which is being spoken of that those who understand it and have for reasons of God’s calling in their lives had to be mindful of it, cannot ignore it and would rather be misunderstood and hated than relinquish its reality to another reality of men and demons.

The evidence of this claim is physically visible in every tribe and family in the whole earth. Some tribes more than others and in some families more than others. Depending on personal experience of it you will be inclined to favour one part or the other. I say in simplicity that it is not one or the other, it is both parts, and it is in the wisdom of God, in the life which we have in Christ, by which we will work it out and find peace in our own homes, in the family of God and in the nations as well. Do I believe that this will happen any day soon? So far as Nations are concerned It will not happen until the coming kingdom of Christ is established in visibility of men where justice will be exercised in the exercising of a righteous government over all men. As to your family in the end that is a private matter for yourself and your husband or wife. No one can produce peace in the nations save for Christ Himself. So what is left then in this hour given that many men are unwilling to work it out and many women are equally unwilling?

It is possible to know a good deal of the measure of this righteous government in your own home and if it is in your own home and you desire to become an elder of the church then it will become evident in the church itself? And this is the singular and solitary thing Paul was speaking about to Timothy in the passages quoted above.

There is equally no doubt that we can comprehend and discern other realities from this letter of Paul to Timothy, yet it will be proven in the end that those things which are implicit rather than imperative to the centrality of meaning may of themselves blind us to the thing itself. To get to this one would have to reasonably follow the argument which is often made to explain the verses listed here.

1st Part

The man is the head of the woman

2nd Part

A woman is not to exercise authority over a man

The Argument

Because the man is the head of the woman, then the woman ought not to have authority over the man in the church.

Is this argument true or false?

The understanding of that lays in the relationship between the meaning of elders and deacons in the local church and the qualification of elders and deacons in the local church.

It also points to a reality for every head of household, which provokes a need for trust in the elders and deacons because in bringing their families into the vicinity of the local church they are necessarily bringing their wives and children under a man. Some people simply accept this arrangement without question and have paid the price in their own bodies and the bodies of their wives and children. Add to this the growing practise of electing women to these positions of authority and the head of household must of necessity hand his wife and children over to a woman.

Therein lays the singular reality of the second part of Paul's admonition.

"Eve was deceived Adam was not”. Lest you say contra wise then consider that Eve was perfect and good in the day she was created.

This reality can be seen working in another way as well.

When the church meets in the home and the basis of the church is a head of household there arises another kind of effect. This one is actually more destructive than the church meeting on the basis of a locality in the traditional way of many households and a chosen number of elders and deacons. The effect is more visible and more certain in the short term. For the latter basis of meeting together, that of elders and deacons, the effect may be long term and less obviously destructive.

In the end I would simply say that if we meet on the basis of Christ as the head with a mind to recognising those men who qualify and desire to be elders and bishops, and submit to them as unto the Lord, where the Lord is the head of all members then we have a basis for trusting in the Lord Himself. Yet if just one brother in the local church asserts his headship because he is the head of a household or one sister asserts her calling unwisely the consequence will be harm and injury to the flock. Beyond that there is the further matter of how to exercise oneself as a gift to the local church or else gifts in the local church. In the end it will still come down to what the elders do and do not permit. If not I am am persuaded that there are both men and women very capable of destroying the flock in pursuit of their own rebellious interests.

Enter the Apostles and the Prophets!