The Apostle Paul was not ignorant of Roman Law as a citizen of Rome

I find it particularly insightful that Paul deferred to his rights as a Roman citizen to appeal to Caesar and escape death. He certainly did not romanticize about being a martyr.

Act 16:37 But Paul said unto them, They have beaten us openly uncondemned, being Romans, and have cast us into prison; and now do they thrust us out privily? nay verily; but let them come themselves and fetch us out.
Act 16:38 And the serjeants told these words unto the magistrates: and they feared, when they heard that they were Romans.

Act 22:25 And as they bound him with thongs, Paul said unto the centurion that stood by, Is it lawful for you to scourge a man that is a Roman, and uncondemned?
Act_25:11 For if I be an offender, or have committed any thing worthy of death, I refuse not to die: but if there be none of these things whereof these accuse me, no man may deliver me unto them. I appeal unto Caesar.

Act_28:19 But when the Jews spake against it, I was constrained to appeal unto Caesar; not that I had ought to accuse my nation of.

As an American citizen, do you know the laws that govern you? Should you know them? Do you know what your rights are if a CPS (Child Protective Services) worker comes to your door and requests that you let them in to survey your house and question your home-schooled children, privately?

Do you know your rights if a CPS worker comes to your door with a police officer and on the hearsay of a neighbor, request to take your children into custody for "interviews"?

Do you know your rights if you get pulled over for no reason because police want to search your car (without probably cause or a warrant)?

Do you know when you are being illegally detained or that you do not have to "consent" to any searches of private property without "probable cause"?

Do you know your rights as an American citizen if you wish to have a weekly Bible Study in your home or witness and preach in public on public property?

I think too often, Christians allow themselves and their family to be "run over" when they are acting correctly under their nation's laws. It is ok, from Paul's example to
"appeal to Caesar" and "Caesar's laws". And it is ok to remind those who are tasked with carrying out the laws of the land, what the law is.

Paul's example illustrates that you are not rebelling when you abide by and stand upon the laws of your country. There is no hint in scripture where Paul was rebelling against God when he called upon Roman law. Do you think it is rebellion when you defer to the laws of your land and remind those who are employed to uphold them, to obey them too? If they don't, you can "appeal to Caesar". This too, is not rebellion.

Brothers you forget Paul was martyred under Nero later. The only thing his Roman citizenship allowed him was beheading as opposed to crucifixon.

I have seen by your posts in the other thread you both object to the idea of Christians in tbe west coming under persecution. That somehow our political citizenship makes us immune to persecution.

God never promised us immunity from persecution. He did promise us the grace to endure such.

Bearmaster.

Bearmaster,

You are slightly wrong. Paul ministered to the household of Caesar and who knows the Senators and soldiers that he touched. Nothing is wasted with God.

The point is that what you are saying is not evidence that Paul sinned or was judged because he deferred to Roman law. Since the Scriptures don't correct his choice as instruction for all of us, I will only assume that Paul was walking in the Spirit when he made his plea which saved his life for now. Yes, he died later, but could have died earlier.

I hope you are not talking to me as being one that objects to persecution. I have no posts that state that. Persecution is part of the territory when one decides to follow the Lord.

"Beware when all men speak well of you".

I am just saying that being ignorant of your countrie's laws/rights is really nothing to be proud of especially when you could defer to those laws to help people. If there was a law in North Korea that could help Christians but was somehow overlooked, I am sure you would appeal to that law.

It is never wrong to do good, if it is "IN YOUR POWER TO DO GOOD".

Pro_3:27 Withhold not good from them to whom it is due, when it is in the power of thine hand to do it.

Hi Mary Jane,

It should go without saying that we need to heed the Spirit's voice. The Word of God is not a law book that we follow, only the Spirit can give it life and that is His personal voice to you and I.

The Word of God is full of spiritual principles, statutes, precepts, etc, and many stumble over it when they try to take it and codify these principles into laws. Only the Holy Spirit is qualified to interpret the Scriptures for you and I.

Only the Holy Spirit can define for you and for me, what is "good", meaning what His will for us, is (in any given situation).

Do we doubt that Paul was "in the spirit"?

You are right it should go with out saying that we need to heed the Spirits voice and yet some of my encounters I have found that is not the case. For many Christians there is an expectation that just because they are led to do something all others must be also.

Of course I do not doubt Paul was in the Spirit...do you doubt that he was?

I will just add that because GOD led Paul to do what he did does not mean GOD would led me to do the exact same thing.

God Bless
mj

Yes, this is the plague in the church that proudpapa spoke of in another thread. His was a very good description, I thought. This plague is where so-called spiritual leaders call all the "sheep" to walk in lock-step and do the same thing as if the Lord is calling all of us to do that.

One example would be voting. I have heard these so-called spiritual leaders say that if a Christian does not vote they are going against God's will. No they are not. A believer has the freedom to vote or not vote.

I hope I have answered your question. Also, I have no reason in Scripture to believe that Paul was not in the spirit.

Mary Jane:
I agree with you entirely.

It is never wrong to do good, if it is "IN YOUR POWER TO DO GOOD".

We have to be careful in defining what we consider to be "good." Many things seem to be "good" to us; but we are finite, weak beings, often swayed by what we see in the physical. The only one who knows what is truly good is God. What may be good in one situation may be terrible in another. That is why it is important to be led by the Spirit, who really knows what is good to do in every situation. It is what Jesus did, which is why all that He did was good.

Art Katz has a message on this very thing. I will try to find the message and if I do I will add the link here.

We can only define what is the Good and acceptable will of God as we are walking in Him.

But, on elementary issues, if a child is about to be run over by a car and it is in your power to save the child, I am sure you would deem it a good thing to do so. There are many such elementary and basic decisions like this that you and everyone else make, everyday.

If we over spiritualize what is "good" we will paralyze ourselves into in-action and end up doing no good thing for anyone, because we have not had a lightning bolt from heaven.

Hi Romanchog,

I am merely suggesting in this thread that it can be wisdom for one to be informed as to their state or federal laws.

This link is a case in point and using Paul the apostle as an example is another case in point. Do things always go as we would like? No, but that is no reason to remain in ignorance.

Here is a snippet of the link: (this has to do with Florida)

Mike Gibson spent ten years as an investigator for the Department of Children and Families (DCF) in Florida. He insists that the agency is neither for children nor families. A patriot and Christian, he joined the agency to assess how far government tentacles reach and to try and keep as many families out of "the system” as possible. As a senior investigator he spent about six months educating a circuit judge about dependency law (the laws that deal with children and families in Florida.) The result was a 90 percent reduction in the number of children taken away from their parents during the next two and a half years in the county Gibson worked in. Already privy to anyone’s financial, medical and even sealed and expunged criminal records, Gibson quit in disgust when he learned of plans for vaccine records to be downloaded to the DCF’s database. Office talk centered around the mass influx of children they would have to place in foster care when the Federal government begins mandatory vaccines. In Florida, refusing a mandatory vaccine is a 2nd degree misdemeanor with a sentence of six months in jail or forced quarantine.
Beginning this month, the Gibsons will be sharing vital information that every American family needs to safeguard their children from the voracious appetite of these greed driven agencies.

Although he’s encountered rogue investigators over the years, Gibson’s experience points to the supervisors and program administrators who pressure and intimidate caseworkers into removing children. "The bar has been set very low. Anyone can bring a complaint against a parent anonymously. Probable cause and imminent risk are the only guidelines. It’s a huge financial racket. If it wasn’t the government it would be covered under R.I.C.O. (The Racketeer Influenced and Corrupt Organizations Act). It’s all career advancement and a culture of fear,” says Gibson.

Mike Gibson’s philosophy for training and helping people is that they need to understand what they are up against, what the law requires of the agency and what rights a family has during an investigation.
Recently, Gibson stayed on the phone with a mother from his church, successfully coaching her to keep the six sheriff’s deputies at her door with a forged court order at bay.
"Make no mistake. Although the CPS worker doesn’t look like a cop, he is part of law enforcement and is considered a first responder. Parents need to have a real, doable, practical plan to deal with this agency when they come to their door. A large part of how much they can protect their children is how well they prepare their family for this marauding invader and how much they can keep their children out of the system. Keeping your family off their radar is always the best option,” Gibson advises.

http://www.proliberty.com/observer/20091030.html

Just-in

I don't know if you saw my edit to one of my previous post but I asked if you were a brother or sister in Christ? It does help to know who one is talking to. :)

God bless
maryjane

a brother

proudpapa says, "Why do you lock your doors Christian friends"?

Well, there are those that seem to romanticize about "The Coming Persecution", however, most people would say they lock their doors because they don't want to be robbed, tortured or killed.

Many that are persecuted overseas would love to come to America and they would thank God for the freedom and the benefits that come with freedom while many here don't value it. Where did Richard Wurmbrand go when Norwegian saints spent 10,000.00 to ransom him. Did he go to Norway?

Inthelight,

this thread was started to pay particular attention to the behaviour of the apostle Paul as a dual citizen. This is important to discuss because the Enemy who is artful at dividing and conquering has divided the church over the definition of what is righteous and good. He has us now doing his work by separating into camps,,,the spiritual and the unspiritual. We should not do this.

When righteousness triumphs we should all rejoice.

Please don't inject or plant your thoughts of divisiveness in this thread. If we are not spiritual enough for you, you could always lay low and let us continue.

Your impoliteness at throwing out an accusation and generalizing is not counteractive to your message of division and strife.

PP who did the Anabaptist appeal to when they were persecuted. They saw themselves as citizens of another country, a heavenly one, and entrusted thenselves to God to withstand the persecution.

Paul did use his Ronan citizenship to secure his freedom at least twice. But he was martyred by Nero in the end.

Governments at their best are corrupt because they are run by fallable man. Because of this you cannot trust in government to protect you or even care about your rights. Your ultimate trust must be in Christ Jesus.

Bearmaster.

,

Hi Bearmaster,

We are all fallable and no one is saying to trust in man (government). And, yes, in the end, we all die.

I guess we are not making ourselves clear to you and that's ok. We are not trying to divide anyone, just trying to understand Paul and others through the centuries and how they interacted with their respective national governments.

I certainly do not trust governments. In my city, Veterans have not been paid any benefits for 20 months and in some cases up to 3 years. I am near the 4th largest city in the nation. There are wonderful ads on the TV to become a Marine but they don't tell you how badly you will be treated when you come home. And soon, they will administer healthcare for all. I am looking to the Lord, brother, because I see it all collapsing, soon. The scriptures are true, "Vain is the help of man".

But, I don't have a bad attitude when I go to a government office. I just look for the Lord's merciful hand in everything and sometimes I see Him working through His servants who work in government.

I too, appreciate your heart and glad regarding the persecuted.

From proudpapa -

Brother Bear This is well said!

the point that I see that we are trying to make is that as you admit Paul did appeal to Caesar for his physical freedom, So we must agree that to do so is neither evidence of lacking Spiritually nor sinful.

Exactly!

Interesting we are talking about government as the government of the most powerful nation is now shut down.

Praise God! He never shuts down.

Bearmaster

Amen, brother. God never shuts down.

But we are not talking about government for government's sake. We are talking about Paul's citizenship and how he utilized it on earth. Obviously, he deferred to it, minimally, but he did find it useful in a couple of cases.

Hi MaryJane,

I believe we already covered that.

The answer is no and yes.

MJ, I think the problem is that the majority of people have become dependent upon " their rights," to establish peace in their hearts. They need the security that rights brings with them so that they can sleep at night. This is a dangerous and unsustainable position, especially given the times in which we now live and are facing as we move forward.

How do we know how much people rely upon their political rights rather than on a peace that can never be taken from them? Watch and see how hard they will fight to keep them.

I think if we so badly want to follow Paul's example, we should learn to be content in whatever situation we find ourselves in. The logical conclusion of some of the arguments here would be that if Rome, in Paul's day, decided to repeal the law stating that Roman citizens could not be scourged, then it would be right and proper for Roman Christians to spend their lives trying to maintain a law that saved them from getting scourged.

Our business is the King's business. If we are are fortunate enough to live in a country where you can go about that business , then praise the Lord. But if we are not, then we should be comforted by the fact that the gates of hell shall not prevail against the Church of Christ, and keep right on going about the business of the King, and in this, I would suggest, is much peace..........bro Frank

ps, the argument that if I was offered spam or steak and I choose steak, proves nothing. The proof of my peace in God is that if I could only have spam then I would be equally content. Hungry or full? Full, but praise God for His peace that hunger cannot steal from me. Homeless or a roof over my head? A roof over my head, but praise God that I worship a God that had no where to lay His head and can bring me peace even if I am homeless. If we want to be like Paul, then we should be content in whatever situation we find ourselves in. The enemy has no weapon against this shield of faith.

Yes, we should be about the King's business (though, not all will agree on what the King's business is). In the pursuit of His business, is it wrong to turn to your own country for relief? Paul did and some think it was wrong and that he suffered the consequences of that decision.

Some people keep trying to reframe the premise behind this thread. Maybe some are unwilling to give a straight answer for fear of appearing unspiritual inside SI. We are not talking about fighting for your rights, but rather not being ignorant of your country's laws. If you remain ignorant of your country's laws, on one hand you may break them without knowing it and on the other hand you and your family may be taken advantage of in serious ways. Is it a sin to know your country's laws and also to take advantage of them on behalf of yourself or others in order to obtain relief from persecution or injustice? Does the Church believe this is unspiritual and that one is not trusting in God when they turn to established laws for relief?

Here is a different kind of example happening to an American citizen in another country. A Christian Aid worker being unjustly imprisoned in Haiti and his wife turning to the American Embassy for assistance. Is she in sin for doing this?

"No charge was leveled by the judge against Pye. He was only told that he would not be released until he signed over his old assets””which he did, on October 16th. His family was then told he was being held in the court's custody, pending an investigation. Haitian law allows judges to imprison a person for up to 90 days without charge while awaiting an investigation.

Danny's wife immediately contacted the embassy.
Two weeks ago, Leann received an email from Brandon Doyle, the embassy's vice consul. Doyle wrote that the embassy had "learned that, unfortunately, no action has been taken on his case." Doyle went on to acknowledge that "this can now be considered a serious violation of Haitian law since your husband has been detained without charges for a period longer than allowable according to the laws of Haiti." Doyle said that the embassy would prepare a formal diplomatic note addressed to the Haitian Ministry of Justice "calling for action on Mr. Pye’s case." Doyle wrote this action is "the most formal and forceful course of action available to us and allowable under diplomatic practice" and that the note would be "sent early next week."

How does the Church judge this wife who has turned to the U.S. Embassy for assistance?

Here is the link. It is an interesting read of someone who is not sitting behind their computer theorizing, but actually in need of help and prayers.

http://www.theawl.com/2011/02/christian-aid-worker-danny-pye-has-been-held-in-a-haitian-prison-since-october

Let us not forget government cuts both ways. The sane government that freed Paul also martyred him.

Bearmaster.

by bearmaster on 2013/10/1 15:12:00

Let us not forget government cuts both ways. The same government that freed Paul also martyred him.

Yes, this is very true. Does that mean you are not open for any assistance from your country of origin regardless of the predicament that you find yourself, your family or friends in? Is this a decision you have decided in advance?

Maryjane seems to be open. Seems like that could have been Paul's attitude, too.

All this to say I will pray, seek GOD and walk in what HE has for me daily. If lead I will speak if not I will be silent.

God bless
maryjane

Just-in the governments have done very little to bring justice for Gid"s saints. In a way this discussion is academic given the fact our government already considers evangelical Christians a hreatt to national security. This was brought out in a study conducted by a university at tax payer exoense. The study was comissioned by Homeland Security. In truth the United States government considers followers of Christ to be enemies of the state

The attitude of the US governmentt toward Christians has been brought out by the President's silence on the imprisonment of Saeed Abadini, an Iranian American, who has been imprisoned in Iran for over a year. This is a brother in Christ who was arrested in Iran for his faith. A year went by before the Secretary of State asked Iran for his release. A year went by before the President acknowledged his imprisonment in a conversation with Rouhani from Iran. Had this been an American Moslem or Gay imprisoned I have no doubt that the President would have expressed his displeasure. It was only through pressure exerted by the ACLJ and other groups the President and Secretary if State reluctantly spoke out about Saeed's imprisonment.

In another instance to show our governments hostility toward Christians. During the recent turmoil in Egypt the President spoke out immediately against the treatment of the Muslem Brotherhood by the Egyptian military. Yet he was profoundly silent in the killing of Coptic Christians by the MB. Or said nothing about the burning of their churches. It was, ironically, the Russian leader Vladimer Putin who decried the persecution of Christians in Egypt. Much to the embarrassment of the US.

Do not expect justice from the US government for Christians. For we are enemies of the state on their eyes.

Bearmaster.

Hi Bearmaster,

I only expect good things from God. Do you think Paul the Apostle expected justice from the state or was he trusting God even though he was invoking his Roman citizenship? I don't know if he was expecting justice but he knew as a Roman citizen they had no right to punish him without a trial and surprise, surprise to many Christians today, he invoked his rights. Why do you think he did that? Paul said, it wasn't lawful what they did. Why can't Christians say similar things, today (if given that freedom by the Holy Spirit, of course)?

Act 22:25 And as they bound him with thongs, Paul said unto the centurion that stood by, Is it lawful for you to scourge a man that is a Roman, and uncondemned?

Can one trust God 100% and at the same time ask for assistance from his country of origin in a particular matter? Of course he can. It is not sinful unless of course the Holy Spirit forbids you to do that, but if He gives you the freedom to (as Paul did), then how can it be sin? You still have to trust the Lord. Every time I have to go to the Department of Motor Vehicles for assistance, I am trusting God 100%. I believe Paul was trusting God 100%, even though he was invoking his Roman citizenship.

From your post, you seem to think that I am saying government is good and will save us. Still you are missing my point, as I am not saying that.

Pappa asks " do you lock your door?"

Now this is in response to my suggestion that many people depend upon their rights to establish peace in their hearts which is why they fight so feverishly to protect them. I also urged that people find the same contentment that Paul had.

Brother if its guns and laws and locks on the doors that establishes and maintains peace in your heart, which is what you seem to be saying, then we simply disagree and that is between you and God. God help folks when all of these things that they rely so heavily upon for their peace are taken away. On Christ the solid Rock I stand, all other ground is sinking sand. May the Lord bless you brother.........bro Frank

"May the Lord bless you also brother."

I'll take that pappa :) To indulge in a hypothetical about what I would do if someone was going to rape my wife and so on, to me, and I could be wrong, is the lowest form of debate. I choose to focus on the fact that my peace comes from the Lord, I choose not to live in fear. I knew a brother who thought just like yourself pappa and he slept with a loaded shotgun under his bed. He was plagued with the " what if's," he was truly a fearful man..........Bro Frank

It seems we may be talking past each other Pappa. Let's agree to disagree. It has certainly been laid out in this thread where we are coming from and so we each know where the other stands. You live your life as God leads brother and I will do the same and on that we can agree............bro Frank

I think many of us are talking past each other. In your context, I understand what you are saying Appolus and I understand what proudpapa is saying.

I also understand why Paul the apostle took the action that he took, in appealing to Caesar.