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Submission to Government

H
havok20x

In church we were discussing Romans 13, 1 Timothy 2, and 1 Peter 2. All of these were dealing with Christians and the government.

Several days ago I was reading and responding to posts concerning a topic similar to this. So I wanted to go to the scriptures and see what it says. It seems to me that Christians are not supposed to be rabble-rousers, rebellious, but submissive to governing authorities, praying for those in leadership, while attempting to lead a quiet life with dignity and godliness.

OF COURSE we ought to be obedient to God. I would never advocate total obedience to the government even when the authorities are commanding us to sin against the Lord or violate the conscience that God gave us.

The issue that arose in Sunday School was this: I stated that we needed to submit to our governing authorities, regardless over whether we agree with everything they say or not so long as we are in obedience to the Lord--that means paying taxes, not overthrowing the government, not disobeying laws we disagree with without any biblical reason, etc. The specific example I used was that if they made owning a gun illegal tomorrow, then I would, as a Christian, need to surrender mine.

I was then accused of taking verses out of context, to which I replied "Then what DO these verses mean?" And that is one of my questions to you guys. What DO these verse actually mean? I have looked up on the internet and in one camp all these guys break down the Greek and make those verses say "Submit to the government, so long as God already approves of what it is doing." The other camp makes these verses say "Submit to every ordinance of the government, regardless of what they say/do." I say that you submit to the government as long as you don't have to sin. And if you can vote, try to vote for what is good and right.

We are going to have to resolve this next class period. So I am hoping that I can get enough counselors in here so that I can gain wisdom. If I am wrong, then I am wrong and I will walk in there without a stitch of pride and say I was. However, my understanding is this: the general response of Christians, especially here in the south is rooted more in dominion theology than in the truth of God's word. Yes, we were/are blessed to live in a country where we have so many wonderful freedoms, but I don't see anywhere in the Bible where it commands me to rebel against the government if the government does not give us those freedoms or takes them away.

Help!

L
Lordoitagain

Act 4:18 And they called them, and commanded them not to speak at all nor teach in the name of Jesus.
Act 4:19 But Peter and John answered and said unto them, Whether it be right in the sight of God to hearken unto you more than unto God, judge ye.
Act 4:20 For we cannot but speak the things which we have seen and heard.
Act 4:21 So when they had further threatened them, they let them go, finding nothing how they might punish them, because of the people: for all men glorified God for that which was done.


Act 5:27 And when they had brought them, they set them before the council: and the high priest asked them,
Act 5:28 Saying, Did not we straitly command you that ye should not teach in this name? and, behold, ye have filled Jerusalem with your doctrine, and intend to bring this man's blood upon us.
Act 5:29 Then Peter and the other apostles answered and said, We ought to obey God rather than men.

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sermonindex

i'm not sure what you are asking, but I do know that the "Dept of Homeland Security" has configured something called "Clergy Response Teams", ALL wielding Romans 13

now rather than giving my opinion, i'll post the google hits for Clergy Response Team and you can figure it:

https://www.google.com/#newwindow=1&q=clergy+response+teams&safe=off

also for your edification, the last time the "church" gave covering to a babylonic demonic "govt", was the "Lutheran church" in Germany for that servant of satan, hitler. i'm certain Romans 13 was amply misappropriated there as well.

here's the Wikipedia entry, that makes for interesting reading: (as well as the google search)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religion_in_Nazi_Germany

https://www.google.com/#newwindow=1&q=hitler+and+the+lutheran+church&safe=off

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sermonindex

Havok, you have the balance brother. If the government ever tell you not to speak about Jesus, ignore that. If it is a matter of guns or health care, obey that. Seems simple enough. It did make me smile though when you said you were going to have to settle that in your next study :) Let me know how that goes. Your touching on the golden calf brother, watch yourself :) .............bro Frank

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Solomon101

This raises a very interesting question for your Sunday School class. I think it would be interesting to see Americans views alongside British and Canadians may have their own interesting perspectives as well.

The question then is this -

Do you (generic you - I mean anyone) hold that the US War of Independence was then an unjust war and done in clear violation of God's Word in the Romans 13:3 ?

Was the Declaration of Independence conceived in rebellion to God and the Revolutionary War and subsequent US Constitution then based upon raw rebellion to God and His ordained authority?

Were the founders of the Republic also engaging in an "evil work" in your (anyones) opinion?

On the surface it seems that however a person views one might be how they have to view the other if it happens in our day.

After all ... when it is said and done the US War for Independence from Britain was fought over taxes. It was a tax revolt pure and simple. The British politicians believed that the colonists should foot part of the costs for garrisoning the troops there to protect them. These British troops were in the colonies at the colonists request. When asked to pay part of the cost of their expenses by a small set of very modest taxes the colonists revolted. British powers responded with force to "enforce" the taxes ... each side amassed arms... shots were fired at Concord ... and the rest is history, as they say.

Would people today feeling they were having a similar taxation set on them without just representation in their minds be in the same position as the colonists?

The way they might feel this way was that approximately 70% of people informed the representatives that they did NOT want Obamacare put into place. The representatives rejected the majority desires of their constituents and voted to pass it anyway.

The Supreme Court later upheld it a "A TAX". As Congress has the power to tax/spend the Supreme Court held Obamacare as constitutional AS IT WAS A TAX PASSED BY CONGRESS. Those are the exact words of Chief Justice Roberts. It "IS A TAX". Many seem to now view that as taxation without representation (70% of the people rejected it yet their representatives impose a massive new tax on them anyway).

Were the colonists being ungodly? Is a person rebelling at what they believe to be unjust taxes being ungodly?

I would appreciate posters opinions as to whether they think the founders and colonists were in rebellion to God by engaging in The American Revolution.

They did so for a far, far, far less tax burden than is currently being imposed.

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sermonindex

Hi Solomon, the answer to that question is not going to end well :) I have the distinct advantage of looking at it through Scottish eyes and American eyes, so a wee bit of an amalgam of the two, having left Scotland at the age of 24, lived in England for 2 years and now have lived in America for 23 years. When I went to Bible school, a very conservative Bible school, I asked that very question of a grumpy old prof who was teaching Romans. The class went quiet, remember, I am at school in the heartland, and the center of the Bible belt, he stared at me for about 4 seconds
(if looks could kill I would not be writing this now) and he said "no, now lets move on." The question, " Was the American war of independence a just war given what Romans 13 says.

Is it a helpful question nowadays to look back over hundreds of years and pass judgement? Yes and no. No obviously because it is done and past and it can never be changed. Yes in the sense if America is an idol to you, this question will deeply trouble you. And yes because if this country was born in rebellion against God's clearly stated word, then we know that God is not mocked, what a man or a country sows it shall also reap. If the seeds of rebellion against government and a deep hatred of taxes was planted deep in those days, then perhaps we are seeing the fruit of that rebellion and hatred play out right now before our very eyes in this government shutdown and this constant battle and obsession with taxes..........bro Frank

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InTheLight

I say that you submit to the government as long as you don't have to sin. And if you can vote, try to vote for what is good and right.

es, we were/are blessed to live in a country where we have so many wonderful freedoms, but I don't see anywhere in the Bible where it commands me to rebel against the government if the government does not give us those freedoms or takes them away.

I would agree with your statements about submitting to government but there is a deeper issue here concerning government that we need to consider. Democracy can only work as long as we deliberately choose God as our individual ruler and submit our rights and ourselves to Him; As Christians this should be our message and policy and the world should see and hear it.

I think it is interesting that you chose gun rights as an example. If such a law would be passed as to remove that right it would just be further advancing the trend of recent years for the government to step in and curb selfish tendencies. Because of the utter selfishness of men, our countrymen have insisted more and more on using their rights selfishly for their own purposes instead of living for God with concern for the needs of others. So, although the constitution doesn't give the government the right to step in and curb selfish tendencies, it has usurped the power to do so for what it calls "the common good." This is just another example of how government tries to treat the symptoms while ignoring the disease and it will ultimately lead to a totalitarian welfare state unless we turn to God.

In Christ,

Ron

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proudpapa

Hi appolus,

What was the reason that you moved from Europe to America ?

H
havok20x

InTheLight,

I also think there is a deeper issue here for Christianity. If we moralize America to the point that the Law agrees exactly with Christianity, have we accomplished anything? Isn't our primary responsibility to preach the Gospel, not develop a moral society? Now, I am not saying we shouldn't vote or nothing like that.

Something I think is that America proves that even with a government that was founded on Christian principles--mankind is still so depraved that it will fall directly back into blatant rejection of the Lord, as America is doing now. Even with Christian men and freedom of religion and all of these wonderful other things, mankind still chooses wickedness. It proves Jeremiah 17:9 right--"The heart is deceitfully wicked and desperately sick. Who can know it?"

Does that make any sense?

--------------------------------------

Also, where did that quote come from at the bottom of your name!? I have never heard that before. I really liked it.

S
sermonindex

Good discussion, thanks all for sharing. I have had similar thoughts throughout my years as a Christian.

The priesthood of believers:

"But you are A CHOSEN RACE, A royal PRIESTHOOD, A HOLY NATION, A PEOPLE FOR God’s OWN POSSESSION, so that you may proclaim the excellencies of Him who has called you out of darkness into His marvelous light; for you once were NOT A PEOPLE, but now you are THE PEOPLE OF GOD; you had NOT RECEIVED MERCY, but now you have RECEIVED MERCY" (1 Pet. 2:9-10).

Our citizenship is in heaven:

"Beloved, I urge you as aliens and strangers to abstain from fleshly lusts which wage war against the soul. Keep your behavior excellent among the Gentiles, so that in the thing in which they slander you as evildoers, they may because of your good deeds, as they observe them, glorify God in the day of visitation" (1 Pet. 2:11-12).

"For our citizenship is in heaven, from which also we eagerly wait for a Savior, the Lord Jesus Christ; who will transform the body of our humble state into conformity with the body of His glory, by the exertion of the power that He has even to subject all things to Himself" (Phil. 3:20-21).


Honor Authority:

"Submit yourselves for the Lord’s sake to every human institution, whether to a king as the one in authority, or to governors as sent by him for the punishment of evildoers and the praise of those who do right. For such is the will of God that by doing right you may silence the ignorance of foolish men. Act as free men, and do not use your freedom as a covering for evil, but use it as bondslaves of God. Honor all people, love the brotherhood, fear God, honor the king" (1 Pet. 2:13-17).

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sermonindex

Hi proudpapa. I did not move from Europe, I moved from Scotland, a country that is proud to be the home of the brave and those who love freedom. Scotland has been in the freedom business for almost 1000 years, long before America was even discovered by the Europeans.

I moved to the States because my wife originally came from Kansas, her father was stationed at the Nuclear Submarine base in Scotland. Can I dare to ask why you want to know? Or should I guess ? :) My main point was that, by coming from a different country, I am not as emotionally attached to the history of America as Americans are. I was born again here which is more important obviously than my physical birth. I have a deep love for this country and especially the Christians of this country. Yet, and I have said this for years, there is a dark shadow of nationalism that clouds many Christians viewpoint. It is the most easily manipulated of all the emotions in my view. It has been used and abused by scoundrels and evil men down through the ages.

Again, I understand nationalism as well as anyone, in fact I would argue, coming from a fiercely nationalistic country like Scotland, that I may have a greater understanding of a fierce nationalistic spirit. It is most definately of the flesh, nationalism does not exist in the realms of the Spirit. God loved the whole world and He has called His children to be one people and to be witness in whatever land they happened to be born. We are , at best, sojourners here, pilgrims simply passing through as Ambassadors of another kingdom. I would like you to imagine this scenario. America declares war on Scotland. Should I go home, join the Scottish army, meet you on the battle-field and kill you? No, I would not, I would rather be killed and be a witness for Jesus as I was killed...........bro Frank

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Sidewalk

In military discussions, people are warned not to use Israeli operations for valuable military tactical training. Their anecdotal history of military moves is full of strange turns of circumstance to their favor like the handful of WWII German planes discovered in Eastern Europe, duct taped together, piloted by smuggled in American pilots, and used to stop cold a well equipped Egyption force of over 10,000 men in 1948 at the birth of that nation.

Or another incident where Israeli tanks were caught between an overwhelming force and a sand covered mine field. They were able to retreat when a freak wind came through and whisked away the sand exposing the mines.

George Washington's multiple defeats and one squeaky victory aided by a fortuitous fog turned the tide for the rag-tag colonial forces, allowing the final victory that birthed the American nation. There is reason to believe that God was there in answer to deep groaning prayer.

And just as David recounts over and over in the Psalms, God is somehow pleased to help those who call upon Him in times of stress and even physical battle.

The people of today's America are most easily likened to the ancient Israelites who departed from former glory and went after idols. The idols of today may have more bells and whistles and require regular charging, but in the larger sense they are no different- just stuff that keeps people from the pursuit of God.

And now comes the judgement. The love of sin in America has reached epidemic proportions, and the trajectory into socialist slavery is clearly charted. The eagle has its talons in a painful grip and the prey is learning the very hard lesson of what it means to cast off moral restraint and wander aimlessly into the hunting grounds.

The citizens are shrieking in horror as they open the envelopes of their new "healthcare system" and begin to realize that they have been completely duped. It is scary ugly to watch, but it is exactly what they voted for.

Frankly, I do not know where I may be forced to draw my own red line for the honor of the Name of the One I serve. But my prayer is that I might know and stand at the proper time. I also know that the spirit driving the current plunge into full-on dictatorship doesn't like anything I believe in.

By the way, Appolus, I share genetically some of that Scottish heritage with you- though I never actually lived there. (Visited in 1961...)

I don't tell this to everyone, though. I don't like being blamed for the world's worst musical instrument- the bagpipe, or the worst male fashion item- the kilt.

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proudpapa

Hi appolus

RE: ///I did not move from Europe, I moved from Scotland///

I thought I understood that you moved from england and before that scotland, I was of the thought that they where located on the continent of Europe

RE: ///Can I dare to ask why you want to know?///

Curiosity was why I asked , To assume that their was any malice with my asking, perhaps a little, but not much as you might guess, being well aware that their is not a great amount to gain by moving from Scotland or England to America as far as freedom is concerned.

But if you consider my curiosity of tying to understand why you would choose to move to a country that you seem to be so vocally critical of its foundation and system, as malice than I suppose you can judge it as so.

My assumption after I asked and before you responded was a spouse, it was the only thing I could think of that fit the box.

As far as your scenario of fighting each other in the battlefield,
brother I would ask what have I ever written that gave the impression that I indorse Christians in the battle -field ?

Brother appolus I do greatly apperciate your answering of my direct question to you.

God Bless you dear brother!

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Lordoitagain

This is an interesting topic that I have dealt with on a continual basis for many years. The same Bible that says:

1Ti 5:8 But if any provide not for his own, and specially for those of his own house, he hath denied the faith, and is worse than an infidel.

also says:

1Pe 2:13 Submit yourselves to every ordinance of man for the Lord's sake: whether it be to the king, as supreme;
1Pe 2:14 Or unto governors, as unto them that are sent by him for the punishment of evildoers, and for the praise of them that do well.

and yet that writer himself said:

Act 5:29 Then Peter and the other apostles answered and said, We ought to obey God rather than men.

I have personally met many God fearing God loving Christians living in the USA contrary to the laws of the USA because they simply could not "provide for their own" in the countries from whence they came and were left with no other alternative than to migrate here and work whatever low paying wearisome job they could to be able to send something back home to provide for their families.

Some Americans who have visited their countries say: "oh they can survive, they just want to live more wealthy"... (which is true of some) but if the same Americans had the communication skills to communicate with some of them, they would not jump so quickly to that conclusion.

The horror stories of the life risking trip itself are an indication to me that things must be quite bad where they come from. I have had to console a young man over the phone whose girlfriend slipped while trying to jump on the train, lost both legs and bled to death. I've seen many pictures of limbless train mounting victims. I've heard them tell of getting kidnapped and watching people get their fingers cut off joint by joint until they would give a family member's phone number, and if that number produced no money, they were shot in the back of the head and killed. Many have told me of rattlesnakes and thirst, so intense that they gladly drank from a cow's drinking hole, and many other dangers along the way.

Some have told me of people in their villages literally dying of hunger in times of drought. Many struggle to communicate with me in Spanish because their native language is an Indian dialect. After generations of poverty in their native countries many having grown up with no shoes to wear and most of them with little education, they make the dangerous journey to better the situation for their families.

98% of them are direct descendants of the native Americans who traveled these continents freely until the Europeans came and invaded their territory. My ancestors broke most of their tribal laws (and as has already been noted) broke the laws of England in order to set up the governments and laws that now rule.

Knowing what I know, how can I possible urge them to disregard God's Word and DO NOT "provide for their own" in an effort to obey border laws that have needed a revamping for several decades?

It saddens me to hear smug American Christians hypocritically condemn them when if they were in the same situation, they would most certainly have done the same exact thing. We have so many twisted laws now (and the number daily grows) that MOST Americans break EPA, OSHA and traffic laws on a daily basis just to survive and yet they would condemn that Guatemalan Quiché Indian who crossed the border without proper authorization.

If the EPA prohibited use of a really good well on your property, and your children were dying of thirst, would you give them to drink from the prohibited well, or would you let them die in compliance with the EPA?

By the way, if you are working someone at heights above 6 feet without a guard rail, or safety net, they must have a personal fall arrest system/safety harness or you are breaking OSHA laws.

B
Beige

Well I am absolutely certain that we have forgotten some of the basic tenants of scripture. In the past the United States of America has enjoyed the blessings of God because the people of the United States believed themselves to be responsible to listen to and to obey the word of God. And never in the history of the world has there been a nation so blessed of God as has been the United States of America.
However consider the following scripture for a moment:
Deu 28:2 And all these blessings shall come on thee, and overtake thee, if thou shalt hearken unto the voice of the LORD thy God.
Deu 28:15 But it shall come to pass, if thou wilt not hearken unto the voice of the LORD thy God, to observe to do all his commandments and his statutes which I command thee this day; that all these curses shall come upon thee, and overtake thee:
If an immigrant should valiantly enter the United States of America and cherish the very same principles that caused our country to be blessed -- I salute him or her. But, if a person enters our country simply to partake of "prosperity" without the commitment to those self same values that were the roots of the tree that produced the prosperity than that person is motivated by lust and greed and God in no part of scripture is obligated to bless that person -- It matters very little if I take care of my own or even if I "take care" of a multitude if that provision is the fruit of sin.
We have already been awash with the prosperity preachers that have forsaken the basic foundation of real wealth and prosperity -- That of TRUE repentance and a willingness to obey the Lord Jesus Christ and to follow Him regardless of whether or not we are born into affluence in the city of New York or born into poverty in a village in Central America. We do not need to see again a false teaching develop stating that the end justifies the means: To say that it is valid to circumvent the laws of the United States and the various individual states because a party's family may need to eat better is simply situational ethics and there is no valid foundation for it in scripture.
And I am not sure which American Christians the writer refers in a condemning manner when he or she states:
"It saddens me to hear smug American Christians hypocritically condemn them when if they were in the same situation, they would most certainly have done the same exact thing. We have so many twisted laws now (and the number daily grows) that MOST Americans break EPA, OSHA and traffic laws on a daily basis just to survive and yet they would condemn that Guatemalan Quiché Indian who crossed the border without proper authorization."
Are you referring to the millions of American Christians who have donated millions and millions of dollars to the missionary efforts that have been sent to every third world country on the face of the planet?
No let us defer to the scriptures above once again and remember some of the things God does allow judgement for; even upon entire cultures. The curses are a direct result of living under judgement which arises as a direct result to sins such as idolatry, human sacrifice, etc... Which have been and sometimes are even now sins common in many third world countries. And what native American tribe do you refer to as being supplanted -- Was it a native American tribe that did not have a local "Witch Doctor"? Now, please let us reflect upon the multitude of examples we have in scripture wherein the spiritual applications of people choosing to worship and follow the one true God of Abraham, Issac, and Jacob and those who chose to worship and follow all the other demi-gods of the nether world -- which cultures were blessed? Another thing I find very interesting is the scripture that alludes to one of the curses of not obeying God will be that the foreigner in our midst shall have rule over us.
The blessings, prosperity and miracles of God are not limited by national borders. God does and will always cross man's borders to bestow His blessings upon His people. I would suggest to you that the conditions in many third world countries are a direct result of the spiritual laws which all men are subject to. And, in that respect "You can take the boy out of the country, but you can not take the country out of the boy." And, I do not think we need to worry ourselves too much about an illegal alien's presence in the United States as it appears to me that the United States will herself be, and very soon, a third world country. But, let us pray that this does not happen. Let us pray that multitudes of people in all nations will repent and follow Jesus Christ. Through those acts of obedience we pray that many people, in many nations will walk in and enjoy the blessings of God and not to be partakers in the curses.

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lovejt

Havok: Based on what you have said and described, i encourage you to speak whatever God puts on your heart next meeting and not worry about 'backlashes' or 'resolutions'. Speak the Word boldfully. If we stand on the Word of God, we have an eternal stance. If we stand on other things, they will fall. You could also bring up 2 Peter 2 where it speaks of those who despise authority and speak evil of dignitaries. Those same people are in the same light as false prophets/teachers (earlier verses).

M
murrcolr

Quote: I don't tell this to everyone, though. I don't like being blamed for the world's worst musical instrument- the bagpipe, or the worst male fashion item- the kilt.

The hairs on my body stand up straight when I hear the pipes playing. As for the kilt, I don't like to wear it as it is a bit itchy, but my wife always asks me to wear it for weddings as she likes to see me dressed in it.

Quote: I understand nationalism as well as anyone, in fact I would argue, coming from a fiercely nationalistic country like Scotland, that I may have a greater understanding of a fierce nationalistic spirit.

It's a terrible curse to be taught from a young age to be a proud Scot and to hate another group of people, the English, then on top of that the Cathoilc-Prodestant rivalry. Nationalism (patriotism)and sectarianism stirs very strong emotions inside men.

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sermonindex

I have always found it interesting that (Christian) men quote the OT when they want to bear arms against other men, yet feign to live in the NT where the Early Church never resisted the "powers" with carnal weapons.

Having been born-again, a foundational transformation should have taken place that wrenches one from the pride of nationalism into the Kingdom of God. If anyone should have had great pride of nationalism, it would have been Jesus Christ, followed by Paul. The lineage of Jesus goes back through some of the greatest men in Israel, yet not a peep from Jesus regarding the government, or Paul, regarding resisting the powers.

American Christians are getting ready to go through a very instructive time (and painful) because it cannot be denied that mainline Christianity is very nationalistic and the transformation into the Kingdom of God has not taken place (by and large).

Can you imagine a "War of Independence" waged by the Early Church against the Romans? All the work of the Lord would have been lost in those days and the known world would never have been evangelized. It is not freedom of men that propelled the early church but rather men's oppression and chains. Somehow, we have this notion that the Church in America has been great because of men's laws of freedom, but that is not true and the Church has not been as great as people make it out to be. Let oppression and pain come to America and we will see what the Church is made of and more importantly, who is the Church?

It is not freedom that men offer that has caused the church to do extraordinary feats through the centuries but just the opposite. Christians need to get into their heads that they lose nothing by losing earthly freedoms. In fact, they may find that they gain their souls.

I am not wishing for pain, just trying to learn something from history.

The Church is America, is by and large, a willing ward of the State and they don't realize how they are so easily manipulated by the State to fulfill it's wishes, keeping the masses placated.

S
sermonindex

murrcolr writes........

"It's a terrible curse to be taught from a young age to be a proud Scot and to hate another group of people, the English, then on top of that the Cathoilc-Prodestant rivalry. Nationalism (patriotism)and sectarianism stirs very strong emotions inside men."

Amen brother, I totally agree. Not only did I hate English people, I was born and raised in an Irish Catholic housing scheme and so I know all too well of the hatred of those groups. It does indeed stir strong emotions inside men and if you lived in America, you would see it all around you and would weep to see a people so easily manipulated by unscrupulous politicians and pastors, typically for the filthy lucre and the applause of men.........bro Frank

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sermonindex

Just-in writes........

"Can you imagine a "War of Independence" waged by the Early Church against the Romans? All the work of the Lord would have been lost in those days and the known world would never have been evangelized. It is not freedom of men that propelled the early church but rather men's oppression and chains. Somehow, we have this notion that the Church in America has been great because of men's laws of freedom, but that is not true and the Church has not been as great as people make it out to be. Let oppression and pain come to America and we will see what the Church is made of and more importantly, who is the Church?

It is not freedom that men offer that has caused the church to do extraordinary feats through the centuries but just the opposite. Christians need to get into their heads that they lose nothing by losing earthly freedoms. In fact, they may find that they gain their souls."

Praise the Lord brother, these mirror my thoughts exactly..........bro Frank

H
havok20x

Thanks everyone for your responses!

D
dolfan

I posted this about 2-3 years ago on another forum that I've been part of for about 10 years. It is something that not a lot of folks would agree with. I can only say it is my honest understanding:


Let's get to the core of the Bible debate. Get a bible and go to Romans 13, but be ready to look at chapter 12 and to flip to parts of Isaiah. Okay, so some trot out Romans 13 and say, "See? Obey the civil laws! Then, you can be 'right' with the law and then it'll be okay for you to receive/do ministry." Here's why that reliance on Romans 13 is misplaced. I concede that my view is a minority view, here, by the way. But, the passage is constantly wretched out of the larger context and used to mean the opposite of Paul's teaching, as I understand him. Let me explain.

Of course, what we're dealing with is the infamous passage in Romans 13 about civil authorities, etc.

"Be subject to" in Rom. 13:1 is used by Paul after he has already laid down a theme of "loving your enemies" in the sense that Jesus described. That is the bed in which Paul lays this pillow in Rom. 13:1. We must begin understanding Paul's point in 13:1 by going back to Rom. 12:14. In fact, as Paul rolls into his "be subject to" statement in 13:1, he assumes that the powers-that-be are evil at the core in the preceding sentence at 12:21 -- "Do not be overcome by evil, but overcome evil with good." That very sentence is also embedded in a very Sermon-on-the-Mount, didactic and imperative type of instruction in how Christians are to live. It is interesting that those instructions include loving enemies, feeding the hungry and helping those who are both needy and opposed to us. THAT is the backdrop of 13:1 and the "be subject to" instruction.

So, in no way does Romans 13:1 teach that "Hey, the government is a legitimate force to be obeyed. Acknowledge it, submit to it, because it is the government." On the contrary, Paul uses the government as Exhibit #1 of who the enemy of Christians really is and instructs us to do the very thing that is most counter-intuitive but is the epitome of losing-life-for-the-sake-of-Jesus'-name: let the enemy rail. Don't resist. Don't counter. Don't try and pull a power play back on it.

Now, as to the part of Romans 13 about government being instituted by God. Here's the deal. We must keep the backdrop in mind and not peel the words out and stick them on present circumstances and make them something they weren't when Paul wrote them.

Paul is an Old Testament scholar. There was no "New Testament" canon yet; in fact, Paul was writing part of the NT in this letter. He knows the lesson Israel learned (or failed to) in 1 Samuel 8 and thereafter -- that God accepts human, civil government as an accomplished fact. He does not establish or ordain in any sense of "approval" or "legitimization" any civil government; the only government now recognized as "legitimate" by God is the church, the body of Christ, ruled over by its Head, Jesus, who is described elsewhere by Paul as the one and only King. (See, 1 Timothy 6:15, wherein Paul says of Jesus that He is "the blessed and only Sovereign, the King of kings and Lord of lords"). Civil, human government is the rejection of the government of God, as illustrated in 1 Sam. 8 and by every government thereafter. If Paul means to say that God legitimizes and approves civil government in Romans 13, then he is lying about Jesus to Timothy and admits of more than one sovereign. But, just as hard-heartedness of humanity lead to the "acceptance" of divorce by God (see, Matthew 19), God has "accepted" or "allowed" human government -- but both are sinful and both are objects of God's scorn, and both (along with everything else) will face a final extinction in the day of wrath. But, that's another topic.

What of these government folks being called "servants of God"? In Isaiah 13, God calls pagan warriors who exercise His judgment on Israel the same thing. Yet, God, through Isaiah, makes plain that even their evil will meet an end: when God is finished using them to do His work in exacting judgment on Israel, He will destroy those pagan warriors, too! (And, that did, in fact, happen. Read Isaiah 10:5-7, 12-13.)

The Assyrian 'government' in Isaiah 10 acted as the Alabama Legislature -- and voters supporting it -- act now: "I have acted in my own might and I have laid my schemes using my own wisdom" -- and that is precisely what God judged of the Assyrians.

Let's look also at Isaiah 45, where God speaks of Cyrus of Persia as God's "Messiah"! That's right. He uses that very lofty word to describe His servant Cyrus whom He would use to allow Israel to return to Jerusalem from captivity in Persia. Paul's use of "servants of God" in Romans 13 is highly informed by these prophetic mentors of his. Government, to Paul, is not a legitimate, God-approved entity. Rather, it is an enemy of the true faith, but one who must be loved in the way Jesus commands to love enemies, and one who is allowed by God (because that's what humans have chosen and keep on choosing, which has huge implications eschatologically, by the way) to deliver the world up to him until that point in time where every knee will bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth, and every tongue will confess that Jesus Christ is Lord to the glory of God the Father. (See, Philippians 2).

What we owe to those in government is love. They are people. But, we are not to obey and follow their folly when they act in ways that are, in truth and in fact, anti-Christ. ... [text omitted, specific to context of the thread this was posted on and irrelevant here]

I would extend that rationale of government's inherent opposition to Christ to every action it makes. I have never been more skeptical of the ability of anyone to be a Christian and an elected politician because, at bottom of it, selfishness as a candidate and then the actual support by the office holder of the government that is inherently opposed to Christ must happen. In fact, I am seriously shaky on whether a sworn officer of the court who has to give an oath of support and allegiance to that government can continue to be and do both if he calls himself Christian. [That last remark was meant to be self-deprecating humor: I'm a lawyer.]

My .02 ----- on steroids.

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sermonindex

I second that: thanks everyone for the responses! I love the diversity in Christ's body (i.e., the church). KM

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Sidewalk

No need to re-write the Federalist papers here, though those writings should be in the mind and heart of everyone who loves living in freedom. It was the Christian thought foundation that produced first these writings, then the Constitution that followed. What these men knew, whatever their personal belief systems were, was that human law always needs to be subject to God's devine law if a society is to live in freedom.

For example, you cannot make a law allowing the murder of unborn children, there is no authority for that. Laws from abortion down to the legal size of a Big Gulp from a convenience store are just baseless human laws of tyranny and hinder God given freedom. As is obvious, we just live with a great deal of local tyranny, they sometimes call it "soft tyranny." But there comes a point...

As Paul notes in Timothy, governments are instituted among men to praise those who do good and punish those who do evil. We indeed need to be in proper submission to such government. But when the tide turns and the government is praising those who do evil and punishing those who do good, what do we do then?

Freedom is a golden treasure that has not been a big part of human experience throughout the ages. But when it has happened, it was because righteous men fought for it. Not only that, but in the fighting many men gave up their lives that others might enjoy that freedom later.

As an American, I never forget the price paid for the freedom I enjoy. I have also been a combatant in the fight for freedom, and I don't forget that either. I have war stories.

I guess in short, I believe in submission to government, and the right to rebel against evil and corrupt government.

We'll see where this goes, for sure wars and rumors of wars will continue to the end. Governments like the one in North Korea just plain need to be overthrown.

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sermonindex

Sidewalk, you write..........

" God given freedom," in relation to the political freedoms we have here in America. Can you give me an example of this kind of freedom in the NT? Where are we exhorted to fight for this? I could make a strong argument, using the sermon on the mount and other Scripture against it, but I am wondering what Scriptures you base this opinion on? ..........bro Frank

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proudpapa

Hi appolus,

brother what is your obsession with challenging everyone that Gives God the glory for the religious freedoms that we and you have always been blessed with ?

RE: " God given freedom," in relation to the political freedoms we have here in America. Can you give me an example of this kind of freedom in the NT?

I would be very willing to give you atleast $1,500 towards a trip for you to go to North Korea find a mount or area of large crowds of people and start open air preaching.

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sermonindex

Perhaps it is you brother that has the obsession ? Perhaps obsession lies in the eyes of the beholder?

I have not always been blessed by " religious freedoms" brother. You also offered another brother money to go to North Korea not knowing that the brother you offered the money to is blind and spends five nights a week praying for that country and others.

It is always helpful to simply " play the ball," rather than personalizing issues brother and " playing the man." The question still remains, and remains unanswered " what is NT Biblical grounds for stating that the political freedoms enjoyed in America are of God?" ...........bro Frank

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Sidewalk

I gather, Appolus, that you have yet to connect yourself to Obamacare? If you want an example of losing your freedom, and thus being awakened to just how precious it is- go ahead and entangle yourself in that sulfur infused legislation from The Pit.

If I have to defend the notion of what it means to fight for freedom from the Bible, I will be wasting breath and causing millions of electrons to be unnecessarily inconvenienced. It is just a reality of humankind that some will rule over others, depriving them of freedom out a large catalog of reasons. I know this, I compensate for it by remaining cheerfully free in Christ, and live my life without complaining.

By all rights I should have been killed in Vietnam a long time ago, this life I now live by the faith of the Son of God- is all just extra anyway!

I also know that freedom can lull people to sleep, give them time and resources to find their way into moral ruin, and cause pain for others. But freedom is still preferable to bondage, and worth the effort to have it in my mind. The New Testament treatment of freedom is centered around being free in Christ, free from sin, free to proclaim the gospel. It is not a handbook on guerrilla warfare and toppling regimes.

Paul at one point while counselling that slaves should serve their masters as unto the Lord, suggests that if they get an opportunity to become a freedman they should take it. Well, duh!

The New testament does not replace the Old Testament, and my bible actually has both volumes in one binding. In Timothy, Paul exhorts his young protege that all scripture is valuable for presenting the Word of God to his hearers. That would be Old Testament material. And there is some pretty intense fighting you can read about there, when the oppressed rise up against their oppressors in the desire to live free. The Midianites come to mind.

A very specific Word came to me on October 13th 1967, as I crouched in the jungle with the roar of a gun battle whizzing past my ears. The young sergeant's radio man was hit and lying about 40 feet in front of us with Viet Cong not far in front of him. Sergeant Doug wanted to crawl out there to pull him back and asked me, the conscientious objector, to hold his rifle in defense of all three of us. There was no hesitation. I slammed the rifle into full-auto, and trained it on the enemy bunker. Doug was able to extract the wounded soldier, and I handed him back his rifle- it had not been fired.

The battle raged on after that incident, many more men were hit, and several died right there. I was the medic, running around helping as many as I could. My ears were deafened by the roar of the guns, my mind racing as I worked on the wounded- that unforgettable smell that comes with fresh battle wounds. I cannot tell you how long it went on- 20 minutes or 3 hours.

But I could not shake the searing memory of holding that rifle prepared to kill. The Word was clear, "There is a time to heal and a time to kill." I had experienced what that second part of the verse feels like.

Submission to government took me 13,000 miles from home to a war I didn't understand then, and apparently no one understands now.

My love for freedom was created in a cauldron of blood, noise and fear. Very different from paging though Bible passages at a Starbucks with a buddy and a couple of lattes.

Not that there's anything wrong with that, but once one leaves academia, real life does its own teaching. We don't all end up with the same ideas or even the same exact values.

So... Here we are with a great forum to talk to each other about it all!

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proudpapa

Hi appolus

appolus wrote : ///Perhaps it is you brother that has the obsession ? Perhaps obsession lies in the eyes of the beholder?///

perhaps.

appolus wrote ///I have not always been blessed by " religious freedoms" brother.///

I did not say that you was blessed "by" I said we have been blessed "with" !

There is without a doubt a great temptation that comes with religious freedoms as what Thieleman J. van Braght correctly asserts, but that does not deny the fact that we give God thanks and give him Glory for our religious Freedoms.

appolus wrote : /// The question still remains, and remains unanswered " what is NT Biblical grounds for stating that the political freedoms enjoyed in America are of God?" ...........bro Frank ///

Are you implying that the religious freedoms that We are blessed with are not from God ?

As far as the NT Biblical grounds for stating that the political (religious)freedoms enjoyed in America are of God :

For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to the evil. Wilt thou then not be afraid of the power? do that which is good, and thou shalt have praise of the same:

For he is the minister of God to thee for good. But if thou do that which is evil, be afraid; for he beareth not the sword in vain: for he is the minister of God, a revenger to execute wrath upon him that doeth evil.

Does your doctrine's cause you to speak evil of the minister for its usage of the sword ?

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sermonindex

Sidewalk, you write..........

"A very specific Word came to me on October 13th 1967, as I crouched in the jungle with the roar of a gun battle whizzing past my ears. The young sergeant's radio man was hit and lying about 40 feet in front of us with Viet Cong not far in front of him. Sergeant Doug wanted to crawl out there to pull him back and asked me, the conscientious objector, to hold his rifle in defense of all three of us. There was no hesitation. I slammed the rifle into full-auto, and trained it on the enemy bunker. Doug was able to extract the wounded soldier, and I handed him back his rifle- it had not been fired."

I am not sure why laying down your objections ( you say you were a conscientious objector) and picking up a gun proves anything brother? Your experiences do not change the word of God.

"My love for freedom was created in a cauldron of blood, noise and fear. Very different from paging though Bible passages at a Starbucks with a buddy and a couple of lattes.
Not that there's anything wrong with that, but once one leaves academia, real life does its own teaching. We don't all end up with the same ideas or even the same exact values."

Does your experiences over-ride the truth of Scripture brother? My love of freedom was born at the foot of a bloody battle-field, the bloody battle-field of Calvary.......bro Frank

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proudpapa writes.......

"Are you implying that the religious freedoms that We are blessed with are not from God ?"

I am not implying that papa, I am saying that. The freedom of religion that you enjoy today was given to you by men and one day, relatively soon, men will take that away from you. The freedom that I found at Calvary was given to me by Jesus and no man can take it from me. When I was born again I was born a free man, free in Christ to share the Gospel anywhere in the world under any conditions, now I may pay a human price for that, but in the Kingdom of God, the kingdom to which saints belong, I am already dead to this world and so no matter what it does to me, it cannot take my freedom from me............bro Frank

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proudpapa

Hi appolus

pp asked : "Are you implying that the religious freedoms that We are blessed with are not from God ?"

appolus replied : ///I am not implying that papa,...///

than are you agreeing that the political (religious) freedoms enjoyed in America are of God ?

Edit add : I ask again "Does your doctrine's cause you to speak evil of the minister for its usage of the sword ?"

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sermonindex

Here is what I actually said

"I am not implying that papa, I am saying that." Then I went on to explain what freedom was actually given by God and how it cannot be taken away............bro Frank

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proudpapa

(((((Edit add : I will leave this post up, but I believe that I may have misunderstood appolus post and so I re posted another post in response above just-in's post)))))


Hi appolus

appolus wrote /// Here is what I actually said
"I am not implying that papa, I am saying that." Then I went on to explain what freedom was actually given by God and how it cannot be taken away............bro Frank///

You are switching topics inorder to avoid answering the question.

Being thankful to God for our physical religious politcal freedoms is not denying or replacing the true freedom that is in Christ Jesus, as it feels that you are trying to assert.

My question to you was "Are you implying that the religious (political) freedoms that We are blessed with are not from God ?"

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sermonindex

In the OT, Israel was commanded by God to drive all their enemies out of the land that was given them by God.

In the NT, the Holy Spirit reveals who our Enemy really is in Ephesians 6.

We then have the example of the Early Church as they were led by the Holy Spirit to walk as Jesus walked.

The Early Church had a great history and great men upon which to draw inspiration and patriotism from. They have a heritage of brave men and women in the OT who stood up to overwhelming forces and conquered them with the help of God. Did the Early Church take pride in their heritage seeking to continue it? Did they have great and lofty plans to overthrow the uncircumcised Romans from Israel, living up to their heritage or did they die to that and everything else in this world when they exchanged their life for His, at Calvary?

Did they not see what their true heritage was (the City of God) and realize that their warfare now was no longer against earthly captors and oppressors?

Or did the Early Church abandon Israel and it's "freedom fighters"?

It seems that there are different thoughts in this thread.

I am thankful for peace and freedom. Of course, who would not be thankful for that.

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proudpapa

Hi appolus

pp wrote : Are you implying that the religious freedoms that We are blessed with are not from God

appolus wrote : ///I am not implying that papa, I am saying that.///

Am I understanding you correctly now ?

Are you saying that you are not "implying" but rather that you are "saying" or stating in confidence : "that the religious freedoms that We are blessed with are not from God ?

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sermonindex

What would Christianity look like today if the Early Church used carnal. military weapons to overcome Rome?

If John, Paul and Peter were Generals in a Christian based military, would Israel be Jewish today or "Christian"? Would Paul have gone on so many missionary journeys? Why did God bring persecution to the Early Church? Was it to scatter them from Jerusalem?

Where would the Church be today if the Vaudois, Albigenses, Anabaptists,etc, etc, took a military stance against oppressors in their land?

Would there even be a church today, undefiled and pure, if the Early Church thought they should continue to battle as their ancestors did?

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proudpapa

Hi just-in

just-in wrote : ////What would Christianity look like today if the Early Church used carnal. military weapons to overcome Rome?
If John, Paul and Peter were Generals in a Christian based military, would Israel be Jewish today or Christian? Would Paul have gone on so many missionary journeys? Why did God bring persecution to the Early Church? Was it to scatter them from Jerusalem?
Where would the Church be today if the Vaudois, Albigenses, Anabaptists,etc, etc, took a military stance against oppressors in their land?
Would there even be a church today, if the Early Church thought they should continue to battle as their ancestors did? ////

I am not sure whom you are replying to, But I just want to make it clear that I am not at all advocating Christians fighting in the battle-field, yet at the same time I am not going to judge those whom have.

Rather or not, the New Testament teaches permissibility for Christian soldiers to hold a combatant status comes down to biblical translation of the word "Diaseio" "diaseivw" if it means to (do violence to) than the excemption clause to "thou shalt not kill" that was in the old testament for the battle field has been overturned.

If the word "Diaseio" "diaseivw" means (to extort from one by intimidation money or other property) than we have no text in the New Testament that over throws the exemption clause of the battle field.

I am a believer that God with his Sovereign hand inspired the very words of the KJV for the english speaking people of our generation, so because of this I must concede that my understanding is that soldiers whom are Christians are to "Do violence to no man, neither accuse any falsely ; and be content with your wages."

But this is a personal understanding, and not one that I am going to infringe my judgement on others, such as the Christian soldier that risked and even lost their lives believing that he was defending us from Nazi tyranny.

It is not as cut and dry as some would have us to believe, "Thou Shalt not Kill" was one of the 10 commandments, I have heard many times that commandmant to be used as a proof text for Pacifism,
But that is misleading to say that the Old Testament "Thou Shalt not Kill" included the soldier in the battle-field because we are well aware that their was an excemption clause for that commandment in the Old Testament, rather or not that exemption clause has been overthrown in the New comes down to as I said : how we translate "Diaseio" "diaseivw"

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sermonindex

I am not sure whom you are replying to, But I just want to make it clear that I am not at all advocating Christians fighting in the battle-field, yet at the same time I am not going to judge those whom have.

Hi proudpapa,

I was not directing this to you just throwing it out because I think this is a very relevant conversation for the day that we are living in. I was hoping that Solomon would still be joining in on the conversation because I would find it interesting to know his thoughts on the subject. In particular, I would like to know Solomon's thoughts regarding the Early Church and if he thinks they should have engaged in carnal battle for the independence of Israel and what he thinks of the Early Church because THEY DID NOT engage in a fight for INDEPENDENCE? His thoughts will shed some light on how he thinks the Church should act today.

Rather or not, the New Testament teaches permissibility for Christian soldiers to hold a combatant status comes down to biblical translation of the word "Diaseio" "diaseivw" if it means to (do violence to) than the exemption clause to "thou shalt not kill" that was in the old testament for the battle field has been overturned.

If the word "Diaseio" "diaseivw" means (to extort from one by intimidation money or other property) then we have no text in the New Testament that over throws the exemption clause of the battle field.

I am a believer that God with his Sovereign hand inspired the very words of the KJV for the english speaking people of our generation, so because of this I must concede that my understanding is that soldiers whom are Christians are to "Do violence to no man, neither accuse any falsely ; and be content with your wages."

This is my understanding, too. And John the Baptist said this while living in OT times (before the death and resurrection of Jesus).

But this is a personal understanding, and not one that I am going to infringe my judgement on others, such as the Christian soldier that risked and even lost their lives believing that he was defending us from Nazi tyranny.

It is not as cut and dry as some would have us to believe, "Thou Shalt not Kill" was one of the 10 commandments, I have heard many times that commandmant to be used as a proof text for Pacifism, but that is misleading to say that the Old Testament "Thou Shalt not Kill" included the soldier in the battle-field because we are well aware that there was an excemption clause for that commandment in the Old Testament, rather or not that exemption clause has been overthrown in the New comes down to as I said : how we translate "Diaseio" "diaseivw"

I think it is important to look at the Revelation of Jesus Christ and the Apostle's teachings to see if 1) they knew of any exemption clause given them by Jesus Christ and 2) if they used it.

This conversation is very worthwhile because it has deep impact and ramifications for all of us living in America especially (as I said) for the times we are living in. Let's keep the conversation going in a spirit of brotherly kindness (thank you and Apollus for doing that).

Heb 1:1 God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,
Heb 1:2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;

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dolfan

I'm not Church of Christ, but the views formed in me about civil government found an echo from words written long ago by David Lipscomb:

"Human government, the embodied effort of man to rule the world without God, ruled over by 'the prince of this world,' the devil. Its mission is to execute wrath and vengeance here on earth. Human government bears the same relation to hell as the church bears to heaven."

And

"It is the duty of the Christian to submit to the human government in its office and work and to seek its destruction only by spreading the religion of Christ and so converting men from service to the earthly government to service to the heavenly one, and so, too, by removing the necessity for its existence and work. No violence, no sword, no bitterness or wrath can he use. The spread of the peaceful principles of the Savior, will draw men out of the kingdoms of earth into the kingdom of God."

And

"Every act of alliance with or reliance for aid upon the human government on the part of the church or its members, is spiritual adultery."

And, this one I find most compelling.

"The great weakness of the church today is that the children of God enter into the kingdoms of this world, imbibe the spirit of those kingdoms, bring that spirit into the church of God, defile the church and drive out the spirit of Christ. The spirit of self-aggrandizement, reliance upon human wisdom, human devices, and institutions, ambition for worldly honor and glory, bitterness and wrath are as prevalent in the church as in the world. The spirit of gentleness and meekness under trials, insults and persecutions, is as seldom found in the church as in this world. The reason is that Christians enter the human governments, imbibe their spirit, participate in their works, and bring this spirit into the church of God. The spirit of Christ is driven out of the church and the distinction between the church and the world is destroyed."

That last one seems to me to perfectly describe one of Satan's great strategies in America. You can almost hear the voice of Screwtape saying that in the ear of Christians in America, appealing to their sense of patriotism (which is a demonic 'ism' in its own right), "taking the country/community/city for Christ", salt/light in the world, and other similar notions. This indictment by Lipscomb would fit perfectly as background explanation to Wormwood had C.S. Lewis written instead.

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Pappa, it seems that you are having difficulty understanding me, which is not often the case because I tend not to soft soap my positions. But for the sake of your clarity I will say it again :) The freedoms that we have in America were gained on the battle-field, delivered by men and therefore one day, and I think one day soon, will be taken away by men.

And again, I want to be sure you understand this and I am sure most other folks do, I am saying that men, not God, delivered political freedom to America which includes freedom of religion. When I talk about true freedom, it is not switching the conversation, it is pointing out what true freedom is, it is pointing out what was actually given by God, at Calvary, and no man or men of war can take it from us because it is actually God given, as opposed to the pursuit of happiness or any other worldly notion. I hope I gave you more clarity as to where I am coming from. We may disagree, but that is okay, we have the freedom to do that :) ............bro Frank

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Excellent post Dolfan! Thanks for the quotes and your summation.............bro Frank

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sermonindex

Dear saints:

I have been following this post and seeking God about the doctrine of Nonresistance. There was a brother who recently left us to to be with the Lord, he started a thread on the doctrine. Please find link below, titled "We Need to Talk About Peace," by pastorfrin. PLEASE note it takes a little while to load for some reason:

https://img.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic_pdf.php?topic_id=15338&forum=35

I just wanted to thank everyone again for their openness in discussing this topic on "Submission to Government" and I do not know what I could add to the discussion, but I want to try an encourage my brothers and sisters to follow Christ and His perfect will.

Some of the secular media outlets and historians have written that Christians are one of the most persecuted religions in the world. I know our Lord told His disciples and all those who believe in Him, that they will be persecuted. Jesus told us that if they persecuted Him, then how much more will they persecute His followers.

In regard to those dear saints who have been in wars and are in battlefields today I cannot even begin to understand what they are experiencing as I have never joined the military. When I am asked about the faith that is within me regarding Christians fighting in wars, voting and submitting to an evil government I rely on Lord for the answer(s) and sometimes I fail Him because of an evil heart of unbelief.

Remember the words of Christ:

"Peter, turning around, saw the disciple whom Jesus loved following them; the one who also had leaned back on His bosom at the supper and said, "Lord, who is the one who betrays You?” So Peter seeing him said to Jesus, "Lord, and what about this man?” Jesus said to him, "If I want him to remain until I come, what is that to you? You follow Me!” Therefore this saying went out among the brethren that that disciple would not die; yet Jesus did not say to him that he would not die, but only, "If I want him to remain until I come, what is that to you?"" (John 21:20-23).

Let us encourage one another to follow and please the Lord and not men.

I believe mercy triumphs over judgment and my walk with the Lord has shown that God is true: "let God be true though every one were a liar, as it is written, "That you may be justified in your words, and prevail when you are judged"" (Rom. 3:4). Jesus has told us that "from within, out of the heart of men, proceed the evil thoughts, fornications, thefts, murders, adulteries, deeds of coveting and wickedness, as well as deceit, sensuality, envy, slander, pride and foolishness. 'All these evil things proceed from within and defile the man.'" And Paul tells us that the letter kills, but the Spirit brings life (i.e., zoe life).

For me, the testimony of Duncan Campbell, who God used in the Hebrides revival and other revivals, has been encouraging to read. Also, the many testimonies from the Martyrs Mirror of our dear brothers and sisters who were called by their persecutors: the Anabaptist. With Duncan he was seeking all of God on the battlefield. His testimony follows. Sorry, it is a little lengthy, but worth it:

"I found myself severely wounded in a cavalry charge outside of Amiens ”“ The last cavalry charge of the British army, April 12, 1918. It is a terrible thing to be in a cavalry charge when machine guns are leveled at you, firing five and six hundred rounds-a-minute. That was what we had to face on that fearful morning. I lay wounded on the battlefield; the blood was flowing freely; I believed I was dying. I was very conscious of my unfitness to appear before the judge of all the earth. Two things troubled me: I felt so unpure, and I knew that I hadn’t helped any soul to find the Saviour. We had often sung on the farm:

Must I empty-handed go?
Must I meet my Saviour so?
Not one soul with which to greet Him?
Must I empty-handed go?
Could I but recall them now,
Oh, the years of sin I’ve wasted!
I would give them to my Saviour
To His will I’d gladly bow.

But I was dying, I thought. And then, a miraculous thing happened. The Canadian horses were called out to second charge. They charged over that bloody battlefield toward the enemy in a body. Men were dying; men were lying wounded; the whole field was littered with men and horses in distress. As it happened, a horse’s hoof struck me in the spine. The mark is still there, and I must have groaned. In the providence of God, that groan registered in the mind of a Canadian trooper. He might have said to himself, "There’s a cowardly man of the Scotch Grays. He’s still alive.”

After the charge, again in the providence of God, that trooper came right to the place where I lay and saw that I was bleeding profusely. He lifted as gently as he could, placed me on the horse’s back, dug the stirrup right into the horses side; and that steed galloped with fury toward the casualty clearing station. Would I be alive to reach the casualty clearing station? Would my soul be in eternity before my body was lifted from the horse? These were the thoughts that coursed through my mind.

As I lay on that horse’s back, I remembered a prayer father frequently offered at family worship. The prayer came from my heart, "Oh, God, I’m dying. Will you make me as holy as a saved man can be?” It was McCheyne’s prayer, frequently uttered by father, "Make me as holy as a saved sinner can be.” God the Holy Ghost fell upon me on that horse’s back. You needn’t say, "There isn’t such a thing as a definite experience of the Holy Ghost subsequent to conversion. My confession was real; my regeneration was wonderful; but it paled before the revelation of Jesus that came to me on that horse’s back.

Then the horse stood at the casualty clearing station. Loving hands lifted me and laid me down on a stretcher. The place was crowded with wounded and dying, mostly Canadians. I couldn’t speak English. But I tried to sing in Gaelic, and what I sang was a psalm: "Oh, thou my soul, bless God the Lord; and all that in me is, be stirred up. His holy name, I will magnify and bless.” Oh, I was weak. My voice wasn’t strong. But God swept in” (Duncan Campbell’s testimony and experience with God).

Dear saints, I FIRST heard Duncan's testimony from an Anabaptist by the name of Denny Kenaston, who has also gone to be with our Lord in heaven.

I am praying that God will gather His children together into a local expression of Himself and just like the evil spirit answered: "I recognize Jesus, and I know about Paul, but who are you?" That we also will be known not by the world as some popular, eloquent speaking group, etc., BUT we will be known by our enemies in the air and because OF our great love for one another. Most importantly that we will be known by our Lord because WHATEVER we SEE Jesus do, we do, and we ALWAYS do the will of the Father.

"Behold, the Bridegroom cometh; go ye out to meet Him."

Love in Christ's name,

Kenneth and Bia

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sermonindex

I would like to provide some information from the "other side" lest we condemn all military men and women to hell.

I met many men in the military that knew the Lord. I came to know the Lord myself in the military. The military is a wonderful mission field and some people join or are led to join for that very reason. They are cooks, administrators, band members, supply personnel, doctors, nurses, chaplains, etc, etc.

Do you think you have nothing to do with the military? Think again. Since we all pay taxes to a corrupt, worldly government, no one of us can judge another. You don't have to be in the military to support the military, for your taxes support the military. You work very hard to support the military through your taxes. Don't say you don't have a choice because you do.

In Israel, everyone is conscripted into the military at the age of 19 whether you are Messianic Jew or regular Jew or atheist. If you are a citizen of Israel, you must serve. Now, we know there are Christians in Israel, and yes, they serve in the military, but they do their best to serve in non-fighting roles such as cooks, nurses, doctors, admins, etc.

Also, we know that giving your life for another won't save you.

1Cor 13:3 ... and though I give my body to be burned, and have not charity, it profiteth me nothing.

There is only one life that was given that will save you.

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Sidewalk

I hold out no hope that some like Appolus will be convinced, but I have something from the New Testament worth your consideration.

But first, the rather prickly charge that I have let my experience override the Word of God. Nothing is more precious to me than the Word and the words of my Savior, but truth be told I have not lived a sinless life. I just embrace One that has.

It is never my intention to use my experiences to override His word, but rather His word is enjoined to my life through my experiences. Through my experiences, the Word has come alive, vibrant, real, and effective in leading me to the very heart of God. I have learned to be content whether I am abased or basking in great plenty. For me the Word is not just a book, but a window to greater realities, a rock of great strength, an amazing treasure of truth and revelation, fresh and new every morning. By His Word I can live in joy, peace, and confidence every day and in every circumstance. My experiences translate into my testimony, and coupled with the blood of the Lamb, I am ready to overcome!

But a quick word about the subject at hand, as wide as it has now become in this thread. Luke 19 contains the story of the Nobleman who went off to receive a kingdom and entrusted some money into the hands of his servants, to one 10 minas, another 5, another just one. Plenty of good things to talk about with the parable, but for some reason He adds another element. As the nobleman is leaving town, a bunch of people run after him complaining of his governance. At the end of the story, after he settles with the men and their minas, he says "But as for these enemies of mine, bring them here and slay them in my presence." It is as if the two stories in the parable have no connection.

Strange words from gentle Jesus meek and mild, are they not?

There is so much there in the Word, so little time to get my arms around all of it. But such good reason to be very slow to judge another brother in whose shoes I have not walked.

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proudpapa

Hi just-in

Our view on this subject seems to be very similar.

just-in wrote /// I think it is important to look at the Revelation of Jesus Christ and the Apostle's teachings to see if 1) they knew of any exemption clause given them by Jesus Christ and 2) if they used it.///

I think we all can agree that the Kingdom of God is not to be spread by force, Calvinist and Catholics have been confused since Augustine on that obvious Biblical reality.

Their is no Christian nation, though a nation can be highly populated and influenced by Christianity.

I would not have wanted to live in a Calvin Geneva.

I would have been glad to have lived in an American Colony influenced by William Penn at the time though.

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proudpapa

Hi appolus,

appolus wrote ///Pappa, it seems that you are having difficulty understanding me///

Yes, thankyou for the clarity.

appolus wrote ///I am saying that men, not God, delivered political freedom to America which includes freedom of religion.///

Again thank you for the clarity, That is indeed where we differ.

I believe that God in His Sovereignty is to praise for the religious freedoms that we are blessed with.

I was at the book store this past week and reading some of Williams Penns writings.

William Penn felt that it was God whom had gave him Pennsylvania, but not without first taking him through great trials and persecution to prepare him.

William Penn believed that his "Holy Experiment" would become the seedbed for America and indeed it did. and not only that, it was a seedbed for all free democracies all over the world.

It was a revolutionary concept at the time, one that we take for granted now. but the concept was bore out of the prayers and persecutions of a friend and follower of George Fox.

"For the Nations want a precedent and my God will Make it (Pennsylvania) the Seed of a Nation.”-William Penn 1681

Lets give God the Praise and Glory for all our blessings !

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sermonindex

Just-in writes..............

"In Israel, everyone is conscripted into the military at the age of 19 whether you are Messianic Jew or regular Jew or atheist. If you are a citizen of Israel, you must serve. Now, we know there are Christians in Israel, and yes, they serve in the military, but they do their best to serve in non-fighting roles such as cooks, nurses, doctors, admins, etc. "

Britain too had conscription until 1954. My uncle , a born again Christian, refused this and spent six months in one of the toughest prisons in Scotland, he was a man whose convictions would not allow him to pick up the gun and be trained to kill.Because it was 1947, just two years after the war, he was treated with great cruelty inside this prison. He later spent over 20 years as a missionary in Pakistan............bro Frank

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Tertullian writes..........

""But now inquiry is made about this point, whether a believer may turn himself unto military service, and whether the military may be admitted unto the faith, even the rank and file, or each inferior grade, to whom there is no necessity for taking part in sacrifices or capital punishments. There is no agreement between the divine and the human sacrament, the standard of Christ and the standard of the devil, the camp of light and the camp of darkness. One soul cannot be due to two masters--God and Caesar. And yet Moses carried a rod, and Aaron wore a buckle, and John (Baptist) is girt with leather and Joshua the son of Nun leads a line of march; and the People warred: if it pleases you to sport with the subject. But how will a Christian man war, nay, how will he serve even in peace, without a sword, which the Lord has taken away? For albeit soldiers had come unto John, and had received the formula of their rule; albeit, likewise, a centurion had believed; still the Lord afterward, in disarming Peter, unbelted every soldier."

This early church father is unambiguous in his remarks and it is a matter of fact to him that the Lord had taken away the sword from Peter and to the early church this meant that he had " unbelted every soldier." ......bro Frank

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The Lord merely told Peter to put his sword back in place. He did however advise the disciples to sell clothes to buy swords. Luke 22:36. However, He was speaking to men who had not been converted yet verse 32 in the AV.

According to my theology, this was prior to their baptism in the Spirit as a second work of saving grace. Once a man has been baptised, he will lay down his sword willingly, as he will trust the Lord entirely for whatever befalls him. He will no more bear a sword than commit any sin.

Before then the Lord does not command pacifism. It is up to the conscience of the believer. He is however, under the wrath of God as he is not fully in Christ whether a sword is in his hand or not. The Lord is sometimes graceful to men in an unsanctified state but they cannot depend on it. The promises are for the sanctified.

Therefore there is no judgement can be made over the matter whether it is right or wrong. The wrongness is in the man's standing before the Lord.

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There are so many anecdotal stories that we all have. The father of a very good friend of my wife who lives in Minnesota is from Germany. He was conscripted into Der Fuhrer's army or else be executed. He was a very committed Christian and prayed that God would keep him from harm and also from harming others. In his first battle he was knocked out and taken prisoner. He never fired a shot. He spent the rest of the war in a prison camp in America.

Another story and I believe I read it in Martyr's Mirror where the Early Church denied communion (fellowship) to soldiers. I will have to look that one up.

Years ago, I had 3 Messianic Jewish brothers who went back to Israel to witness for the Lord. They knew they would be required to join the military and they all became cooks. Reuben, Benjamin and Schmuel. There were serious brothers in the Lord.

B
bluinos

by just-in on 2013 10/14 17:07:00

Just-in,

Since you are so adament in regards to the Military and your comment towards the government as being corrupt;

When a righteous man turns away from his righteousness and commits iniquity, and does according to all the abominations that the wicked man does, shall he live? All the righteousness which he has done shall not be remembered; because of the unfaithfulness of which he is guilty and the sin which he has committed, because of them he shall die. Eze 18:24

When a wicked man turns away from the wickedness which he committed, and does what is lawful and right, he preserves himself alive. Because he consideres and turns away from all the transgressions which he committed, he shall surely live; he shall not die. Eze 18:26

Our system is not corrupt as I too pay taxes.. and believe that we are soldiers in the army of God, prisioners for Christ..


*edit

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proudpapa

Charles Finney believed that the exemption clause to "thou shalt not kill" for the battle-field still applies

Oswald Chambers served as a World War I chaplain, He was buried in Cairo with full military honors.

We could go on and on, of Spirit filled Christians in the past whom stood on both sides of the isle on this type of subject.

I think that we need to be very careful in judging those things that God in his Sovereignty and infinate wisdom never gave an absolute proof text for.

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sermonindex

There are men's opinions and then there is Scripture. We are not measured by men's opinions but by the Word of God which never changes even if Constantine becomes a " Christian," and needs a theology that permits him to continue building an empire or kingdom here on earth.

Early church fathers are presumed to know or have a much better idea what the Apostles taught because they themselves served under them or were very close to the source. In the secular world we see this when the Supreme Court goes back and looks to see what the intent was of America's founding fathers based on what they wrote and signed off on. Church historians do this with the early church fathers because of the weight that their opinions carry. Of course, ultimately each man will give an account for how he lived his life according to the word of God, the commands of Jesus.........bro Frank

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MaryJane

Of course, ultimately each man will give an account for how he lived his life according to the word of God, the commands of Jesus.........bro Frank

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I think this is so very important to consider in all of this. Sometimes we get so caught up in following after men we forget that JESUS is our example. It is after all HIS life we are to reflect back to others.

Thank you for sharing this Frank very good reminder

God bless
maryjane

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sermonindex

Marcellus, ?-298 A.D.

"I threw down my arms for it was not seemly that a Christian man, who renders military service to the Lord Christ, should render it by earthly injuries.” "It is not lawful for a Christian to bear arms for any earthly consideration.”

Irenaeus, approx. 180 A.D.

"Christians have changed their swords and their lances into instruments of peace, and they know not now how to fight.”

Justin Martyr, approx. 138 A.D.

"The devil is the author of all war.” "We, who used to kill one another, do not make war on our enemies. We refuse to tell lies or deceive our inquisitors; we prefer to die acknowledging Christ.”

Tertullian, 155-230 A.D.

"But now inquiry is being made concerning these issues. First, can any believer enlist in the military? Second, can any soldier, even those of the rank and file or lesser grades who neither engage in pagan sacrifices nor capital punishment, be admitted into the church? No on both counts””for there is no agreement between the divine sacrament and the human sacrament, the standard of Christ and the standard of the devil, the camp of light and the camp of darkness. One soul cannot serve two masters””God and Caesar…But how will a Christian engage in war””indeed, how will a Christian even engage in military service during peacetime””without the sword, which the Lord has taken away? For although soldiers had approached John to receive instructions and a centurion believed, this does not change the fact that afterward, the Lord, by disarming Peter, disarmed every soldier.Under no circumstances should a true Christian draw the sword.”

Origen of Alexandria, 185-254 A.D.

"We have come in accordance with the counsel of Jesus to cut down our arrogant swords of argument into plowshares, and we convert into sickles the spears we formerly used in fighting. For we no longer take swords against a nation, nor do we learn anymore to make war, having become sons of peace for the sake of Jesus, who is our Lord.”

Hippolytus, 170-236 A.D.

"A soldier, being inferior in rank to God, must not kill anyone. If ordered to, he must not carry out the order, nor may he take an oath (sacramentum) to do so. If he does not accept this, let him be dismissed from the church. Anyone bearing the power of the sword, or any city magistrate, who wears purple, let him cease from wearing it at once or be dismissed from the church. Any catechumen or believer who wishes to become a soldier must be dismissed from the church because they have despised God.A person who has accepted the power of killing, or a soldier, may never be received [into the church] at all.”

Cyprian, approx. 250 A.D.

"[Christians] are not allowed to kill, but they must be ready to be put to death themselves… it is not permitted the guiltless to put even the guilty to death.” "God wished iron to be used for the cultivation of the earth, and therefore it should not be used to take human life.”

These are just a few quotes, but here is an undeniable fact, not one early church father, prior to Constantine, taught that Christians could be soldiers, in fact they condemned it. Something to think about........bro Frank

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proudpapa

Hi appolus

appolus wrote : ///There are men's opinions and then there is Scripture. We are not measured by men's opinions but by the Word of God which never changes even if Constantine becomes a " Christian," and needs a theology that permits him to continue building an empire or kingdom here on earth.///

This is absolutly correct and the issue that we are disscussing has been held on both sides by sincere Godly Spirit filled men whom have searched the Scriptures dilligently as what we are doing , and as us, they have come to seperate conclusions.

Brother rather or not you are humble enough to admitt it, your view is an opinion, it is not as cut and dry as you would like it to be.

Mens interpretation of Scripture such as Finney and Chambers holds just as much wait and in reality In my view much more wait than does yours brother.

It is very nauseating when brothers take a position that is held on both sides by Spirit filled sincere bible believing Brothers. and they lift themselves above the other and condemn the other because of doctrine.


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sermonindex

Then Bro. PP you will have to carry out your logic to Calvin, Luther.and Cromwell. There are many, particularly the Reformed faith, who held that these were sincere godly men who believed that society be ruled by church and state. John Knox said that Calvin's Geneva was the best place for a Protestant to be. Knox likened Geneva to a school if the early Apostles.

Yet Calvin, had Sevetus burned at the stake for heresy. Though defenders of Calvin debate his role in the matter. We know that Calvin, Luther, and and other state church Reformers regarded the Anabaptist that you admire as heretics. Many of them were burned st the stake, drowned, or were hung by the Reformed state church governments.

Shall we talk of Puritain New England and their treatment of Roger Williams of Ann Hutchins. Shall we talk of the Salem witch trials and how many young innocent women were put to death on charges of being a witch. Very similar to the Pakistani Moslems who can charge a Christian for blasphemy against the Prophet Mohamed on the slightest pretense.

This is the government you speak of that sincere, Spirit-filled Christians believe that is just.

Respectfully Bearmaster.

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proudpapa

RE: ///These are just a few quotes, but here is an undeniable fact, not one early church father, prior to Constantine, taught that Christians could be soldiers, in fact they condemned it. Something to think about........bro Frank ///

that is also debatable

"Protestant church historians such as Philip Schaff, Harnack, McGiffert, Moffat, Lee, Frend, and archeologists such as Sir William Ramsey have also made a special study of the early church in this regard. They have come away convinced that the pacifists have overstated their case and ignored significant evidence that Christians were involved in the military from the apostolic period to Constantine."
http://www.churchinhistory.org/pages/misc/ch-war-pac.htm

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proudpapa

Hi brother bear,

you are misunderstanding my position totally, lets not place my position into a wrong sterotype. please read through all of my post.

Bless you brother and your heart for the persecuted Church.


Edit add : I previously wrote this in one of the post :

(((I think we all can agree that the Kingdom of God is not to be spread by force, Calvinist and Catholics have been confused since Augustine on that obvious Biblical reality.

Their is no Christian nation, though a nation can be highly populated and influenced by Christianity.

I would not have wanted to live in a Calvin Geneva.

I would have been glad to have lived in an American Colony influenced by William Penn at the time though. )))


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proudpapa

Oswald Chambers served as a World War I chaplain in egypt he died at a young age because he did not want to go to the hospital after he was stricken with appendicitis, knowing that the beds would be need to be used for the wounded soldiers coming home from the Third Battle of Gaza , He was buried in Cairo with full military honors.

Can we atleast agree that being a Chaplin during war time is exceptable and most likely some are even led of God for such positions ?

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sermonindex

It has been said that Gid blessed America with freedom in political rights. Let us out this in context. Only if you were a ***white, Anglo saxon, Protestant*** were such political rights given.

Let me use state of Arkansas where I live as an example. Starting in the city of Little Rock. There is at Central High a museum set up to commemorate the Little Rock Nine. These were nine black children who dared to go against the bigotry at that time to get an education in an all white high school. The hatred of whites against the blacks, particularly these children was so intense that Eisenhower sent Federal troops to ensure their safety.

Central High is a monument for how blacks were treated and denied basic political rights even 100 years after a bloody civil war to give the blacks political rights as American citizens. But it still took movements in the fifties and sixties for blacks go have some degree of political rights that had been guaranteed under the Constitution.

In northern Arkansas there us the infamous Trail of Tears. Many Cherokee Indians who were forcex off their lands on the east coast by Andrew Jackson died on their way to Oklahoma. Oh, did I add these Cbrokee were American citizens who lived in civilized society? Yet they were not recognized by the whites as Americans though the US Constitution said they were.

My last point of reference in Arkansas is a place called Robr. Here one of the Japanese internment camps was located. Here Japanese Americans were imprisoned.

Shortly after Pearl Harbor was bompbed by the Japanese FDR signed an executive order that forced Japanese Americans of first, sexobd, and third generations to relocate to internment centers. Prison camps if you will. These were citizens of the US. Like the Cherokee they were deprived if property and liberty. Yet the Constitution said they were citizens.

Arkansas stands as a stark reminder that political rights as given by Caesar can be taken by Caesar. The only true freedom one has is found in Calvary.

Bearmaster.

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Sidewalk

"Those who beat their swords into plowshares will plow for those who don't."

Thomas Jefferson

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proudpapa

bearmaster

Lets remember the impact that the first great awakening had on influencing the culture that brought us our Constitution, Lets remember how much William Penns Holy Experiement had on influencing the religious freedoms that we have today, Lets remember how the second great awakening influenced a culture so that they would extend these rights to non whites.

America is not a Christian nation but America has been greatly influenced by Christians.

Lets not allow hidden root of rebelion to cause us to deny Gods hand and involvement in the religious freedoms that we are blessed with.


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sermonindex

"Brother rather or not you are humble enough to admitt it,"

"It is very nauseating when brothers take a position that is held on both sides by Spirit filled sincere bible believing Brothers. and they lift themselves above the other and condemn the other because of doctrine."

Pappa, I would encourage you to play the ball and not the man. This is an important discussion and it should not be personalized. If you have quotes from early church fathers or Scriptures that support your case, you should simply post them for all to read and consider.............bro Frank

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proudpapa

I would ask personally for Brother Blain and Brother frank to answer this question that I asked :

Can we atleast agree that being a Chaplin during war time is exceptable and most likely some are even led of God for such positions such as was Oswald Chambers ?

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sermonindex

Bro PP I know a Christ centered brother who is a military chaplain. I see no issue with that. I am sure that there are many Christ centered Federal workers who are furloughed and I pray for them. I see no issue with anyone who us a Cbristian working for Caesar. I have worked for the Arkansas General Assembly.

I think the issue stems when we start viewing government as God's agent to bring about His kingdom. Also when we start idolizing the Constitution and worshipping the greatness of America then we are blaspheming God.

I find it prophetically significant that the government of the most powerful nation on earth is shut down because there is no money to fund it. Also we may be looking at a collapse of the American economy. Could it be that God is getting ready to knock this idol of America to her knees? Perhaps to her face.

Do I wish or want this? No. But we as evangelicals have worshipped America over Christ. And it seems God is bringing judgement on our idol.

Bearmaster.

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proudpapa

Brother Bear,

Brother bear wrote : ///Bro PP I know a Christ centered brother who is a military chaplain. I see no issue with that. I am sure that there are many Christ centered Federal workers who are furloughed and I pray for them. I see no issue with anyone who us a Cbristian working for Caesar. J have worked for the Arkansas General Assembly.
I think the issue stems when we start viewing government as God's agent to bring about His kingdom. Also when we start idolizing the Constitution and worshipping the greatness of America then we are blaspheming God.
I find it prophetically significant that the government of the most powerful nation on earth is shut down because there is no money to fund it. Also we may be looming at a collapse of the American economy. Could it be that God is getting ready to knock this idol of America to her knees? Perhaps to her face.
Do I wish or want this? No. But we on evangelicals have worshipped America over Christ. And it seems God is bringing judgement on our idol.
Bearmaster.///

Even though we might differ on what you are implying, I can agree with everything that you have written here.

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Bro PP if one feels led of Christ to serve as a chaplain in the military I see no issue. However, because of the political correctness of the military. Chaplains are being restricted in how much they can share Jesus and stand for His truth. Even the brother I mentioned previously nay gave to resign his position because of restrictions coming down from the Pentagon.

Being a Christ centered chaplain in today's military is a lit harder then it was in Oswald Chamber's day.

Just ny thoughts. Must stand down now bro. Aporeciate your post and insights. Blessings bro.

Bear.

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sermonindex

While this discussion of military chaplains is taking place. One may want to check out the thread where the AFA is classified as a hate group by the militiary.

This is starting to get serious.

Bear.

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sermonindex

PP asks ........... "Can we at least agree that being a Chaplin during war time is exceptable and most likely some are even led of God for such positions such as was Oswald Chambers ?"

Brother I cannot agree with that. One must be led by the Spirit and by the word of God. Oswald Chambers is one of my favorite authors and a fellow Scotsman, but he was a man and not a perfect one. Men do not establish truth by their practices, Truth is already established by the Word of God and the Holy Spirit leads us into all truth.

I will say this, each man has to be convinced of his actions because each man will give an account to God. Consider this PP, if every confessing Christian in Europe had refused to take up arms, then the great wars of Europe could never have taken place. You see what great reward there could have been for obedience? Yet we see what utter devastation there was because of disobedience. Hundreds of millions killed, in fact more killed in the 20 century than all the wars in the history of the world combined. Perhaps it would have been better for the world to have been led by Scriptures and the early church fathers than clergy who convinced us that it was fine to take up arms? Just my thoughts............bro Frank

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MaryJane

by appolus on 2013/10/15 10:30:00

PP asks ........... "Can we at least agree that being a Chaplin during war time is exceptable and most likely some are even led of God for such positions such as was Oswald Chambers ?"

Brother I cannot agree with that. One must be led by the Spirit and by the word of God. Oswald Chambers is one of my favorite authors and a fellow Scotsman, but he was a man and not a perfect one. Men do not establish truth by their practices, Truth is already established by the Word of God and the Holy Spirit leads us into all truth.

I will say this, each man has to be convinced of his actions because each man will give an account to God. Consider this PP, if every confessing Christian in Europe had refused to take up arms, then the great wars of Europe could never have taken place. You see what great reward there could have been for obedience? Yet we see what utter devastation there was because of disobedience. Hundreds of millions killed, in fact more killed in the 20 century than all the wars in the history of the world combined. Perhaps it would have been better for the world to have been led by Scriptures and the early church fathers than clergy who convinced us that it was fine to take up arms? Just my thoughts............bro Frank
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Frank

I appreciated what you wrote here about each man being led by the Spirit and by the word of God. This discussion of military has come up a few times in our home as my boys grow into men. The topic is not an easy one and each time they ask me questions I find myself coming to the same conclusions JESUS was led as a lamb to the slaughter and HE is our example.

God bless
maryjane

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sermonindex

Though it is much harder to be a Chaplain today, the mission field still exists. It is definitely more difficult to be a Christian today in the military than previous years (not just a Chaplain). Persecution always existed from ungodly people, but now the authorities are actually waging a subtle purge of Christians. A person desiring to be a Chaplain today to minister to the men and women in this mission field has more of a cost to count than in previous days. In previous days, Chaplains could minister unhindered, not so anymore.

bluinos,
I have no idea what point you are trying to make.

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proudpapa

RE: ///Truth is already established by the Word of God and the Holy Spirit leads us into all truth.///

I agree with this. God in His infiniate wisdom and Sovereignty choose not to give us an absolute answer on this subject in the Scriptures, that is why their is not absolute agreement on this subject.

Could it be that on subjects such as this and many others, that God speakes to different individuals at different times differently because of their different circumstances ?

When the Soldiers ,Centurions ,and Publicans approached God with their unworthyness they where excepted and their prayers where heard. The Scripture mentions no where that they where thus led to abandon their professions, even though they where indeed led to walk honestly in them.

When the Pharisee's brought their will worship and their public praying and their fastings often and their tithing of all they possesed and other such ascetism they where rejected.

I am not going to so espouse to any doctrine that has no proof text and is understood differently by many Spirit filled Christians, that would cause me to judge Oswald Chambers as being contrary to the will of God while He served as a Chaplin during war time.

I can understand and respect being personaly nonresistant, but the root of pacifism I personaly believe is rebellion.

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proudpapa

Brother Frank wrote RE: ///what is NT Biblical grounds for stating that the political freedoms enjoyed in America are of God?" ...........bro Frank///

Brother Blain and Brother Frank, can we atleast agree that we are to Pray for our Rulers, Politicians and others in authority over us for the purpose that we might live a peaceable tranquil life ?

And if those prayers are indeed heard than can we agree that we are to Give God thanks for those prayers being heard ?

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sermonindex

I can understand and respect being personally nonresistant, but the root of pacifism I personally believe is rebellion.

Very true, proudpapa. Non-Resistance as taught by Jesus Christ is very much different than Pacifism.

The root of Pacifism is absolutely rebellion.

Pacifism includes strikes, protesting, non-violent resistance all of these are to coerce and force a government into submission to the Pacifists. In light of this you can see that Jesus was not a Pacifist. He taught the doctrine of Non-resistance. The flesh has a hard time swallowing that one.

Our Constitution and Laws of the land give us rights that Jesus Christ never gave us.

1. Right to Divorce
2. Right to "Free" speech. (To criticize rulers and say all manner of things about them. God does not give us this right).
3. Right to Abort Babies.
4. The Right to Sue others in Court.
5. The Right to marry the same sex.

Here are some rights that Jesus Christ gave us.

1. The right to die
2. The right to forgive
3. The right to turn the other cheek
4. The right to be hated by all men
5. The right to be betrayed by members of your family
6. The right to walk as He walked and be identified with Him.

S
sermonindex

PP, Jesus told us to love our enemies and many have rebelled against that and killed not only their enemies but their brothers and sisters in Christ under the auspices of " The government." ( blanket bombing of cities, woman and children and the elderly) This is rebellion. As for pacifism , you would have to define that and how it pertains to Christians for me to comment on that. If by pacifism you mean not taking up the sword and killing, then I would disagree with your statement................bro Frank

P
proudpapa

Hi appolus


appolus wrote : ///As for pacifism , you would have to define that and how it pertains to Christians for me to comment on that.///

Someone whom is personally nonresistant turns the other cheek.

The Bible tells us :

rulers are not a terror to good works, but to the evil. Wilt thou then not be afraid of the power? do that which is good, and thou shalt have praise of the same:
For he is the minister of God to thee for good. But if thou do that which is evil, be afraid; for he beareth not the sword in vain: for he is the minister of God, a revenger to execute wrath upon him that doeth evil.


A pacifict on other hand is consumed with trying to take the revengers sword out of his hand (I am speaking of the revenger as in the context of the above Scripture)

The pacifict speaks evil of his country for going to war, no matter the cause. He believes that he has found a justifiable reason to rebel.

The personal non resistant person may refuse a combatant status in the military but they do not criticize the revenger when it excutes wrath such as America did on Nazi Germany.


Edit add : again : Brother Frank, can we atleast agree that we are to Pray for our Rulers, Politicians and others in authority over us for the purpose that we might live a peaceable tranquil life ?

And if those prayers are indeed heard than can we agree that we are to Give God thanks for those prayers being heard ?


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sermonindex

Hi PP

Brother I think we can all agree that we are to pray for those in authority. And if God answers those prayers then we are to thank Him. This is what we are commanded to do in 1 Tim. 2:1-2.

I am praying for our Congress and President as regards the current fiscal crisis. I pray a wise and just consensus comes out if D. C.

Bro hopes tbis answers your question.

Bear.

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proudpapa

Hi Bear.

That is it and that is my main point,
Thankyou

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sermonindex

Hi PP, you write..........

"The pacifict speaks evil of his country for going to war, no matter the cause. He believes that he has found a justifiable reason to rebel."

Then we agree brother :) Yeahhh. Secular pacifism is just plain silly. And we further agree that we should pray for the leaders of our nations that we may live a peaceable life.......bro Frank

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sermonindex

Seems like we are all in agreement (Apollus, Bear, PPapa).

And also, if you take some present day "patriotic" thought to it's ultimate conclusion, you would have German Christians who were conscripted/drafted into the Army fighting American Christians who were drafted into their Army. Kind of crazy, isn't it?

And Jesus says, "My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence." John 18:36

I don't pretend to know how the Lord sorts this all out, (meaning, men's lives when they stand before Him). But, it is painfully clear that there are differing opinions on whether Jesus lived and taught non-resistance. Most of us know He lived it but some want to insist that He did not teach it. I submit to everyone that what He lived, He taught. His life was a teaching. You cannot separate His words from His actions because they were in complete agreement. No hypocrisy in Jesus.

Some of us see it very clearly, but other brothers, don't. Just like we pray for rulers and all those in authority we should pray for each other...especially, each other.

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Sidewalk

Several years ago, a friend of mine- deeply committed Christian with a very high security clearance, explained how in the development of American nuclear weapons, great care and considerable expense was employed to make the weapons clean from the residual radioactivity once they were deployed in a conflict. Yes they would do the damage needed for the mission, but the land would not be permanently condemned with high levels of deadly residual radiation.

This was all part of the American military doctrine of defense, the only way our weapons would come to be used. While I am not sure the doctrine still holds today, the notion that the military should only be used for defense and not for aggression was unlike the doctrines of competitive world powers. For example, in Soviet nuclear technology they didn't waste time or money on making their arsenals clean from a radioactive aftermath. Had there been a serious nuclear exchange in the '60's and '70's America would have ended up a largely uninhabitable wasteland, while the Soviet Union would have had a much easier recovery- at least in terms of residual radiation.

From great nations to regional conflicts to back fence squabbles, there are differences between those who act in aggression and those who are thus forced to defend. There is an enormous difference between the two, but be assured it is the aggressor who makes the rules.

As they say on the street, it is not smart to bring a knife to a gunfight, and my security expert buddy says, "You do not want to be the second guy to realize you are in a gunfight."

Just some evening ramblings from Sidewalk, who ministers on the street armed only with a NASB bible... (It's "Sidewalk," not "Sidearm...")

A
a-servant

Quote: "Yes they would do the damage needed for the mission, but the land would not be permanently condemned with high levels of deadly residual radiation."

You should at least try to catch up with recent developments, search for Iraq + depleted uranium and it's consequences on child births and deaths there. It still kills thousands of lifes, some analysts say it will kill everyone in the whole wider region within xx years.

S
sermonindex

Several years ago, a friend of mine- deeply committed Christian with a very high security clearance, explained how in the development of American nuclear weapons, great care and considerable expense was employed to make the weapons clean from the residual radioactivity once they were deployed in a conflict. Yes they would do the damage needed for the mission, but the land would not be permanently condemned with high levels of deadly residual radiation.

This was all part of the American military doctrine of defense, the only way our weapons would come to be used. While I am not sure the doctrine still holds today, the notion that the military should only be used for defense and not for aggression was unlike the doctrines of competitive world powers. For example, in Soviet nuclear technology they didn't waste time or money on making their arsenals clean from a radioactive aftermath. Had there been a serious nuclear exchange in the '60's and '70's America would have ended up a largely uninhabitable wasteland, while the Soviet Union would have had a much easier recovery- at least in terms of residual radiation.

From great nations to regional conflicts to back fence squabbles, there are differences between those who act in aggression and those who are thus forced to defend. There is an enormous difference between the two, but be assured it is the aggressor who makes the rules.

As they say on the street, it is not smart to bring a knife to a gunfight, and my security expert buddy says, "You do not want to be the second guy to realize you are in a gunfight."

in love, I ask, brother, do you think there might a wee bit too much of the flesh and the world in what you posted?

S
Sidewalk

Too much flesh and worldliness? Probably!

My reason for going in this direction had more to do with the notion that some believe that all conflict is bad, and that Christians should always abstain from deadly confrontations. While I understand the underpinnings of this view and respect those who hold it, I mostly don't.

In the animal world God gave us to observe and learn from, we see that most of God's creatures have built in ways to aggressively pursue prey and defend against becoming someone's lunch. All of this without moral restraint or eternal consequences!

But as human moral agents, we are forced into certain dilemmas as we pursue lunch and defend against being overcome by evil. For me, I believe there is ground to be held and ground to be surrendered, and the Holy Spirit will help me see the difference. Allowing evil to run over me or those I am charged by God to protect is going to be met with force- sometimes spiritual and sometimes physical.

But the big difference is that aggression and defense are not the same. People who set out to take something that belongs to another will equip themselves to overcome resistance. That's what I mean by the aggressor setting the rules. And when the defender recognizes what may be coming at him, he makes sure his defense is strong enough to hopefully dissuade the attacker. Some of this is just simple math and moral determination. When it is working well, peace reigns...with tension holding it there.

Jesus posed a bit of a question in Luke 14:31 where he considers the mind of a king wondering if he should go out to battle with 10,000 men against another king with 20,000. Or whether to send a delegation seeking terms of peace.

We live in a brutal world, and there are people out there plotting how to take what you have for themselves. Don't even get me started on Obamacare!

I know Jesus. I long for intimacy, and I long to be an effective witness for his kingdom which I love. I know the words of Isaiah 42, "a bruised reed He will not break, and a smoldering wick He will not extinguish."

Not by might nor by power but by My Spirit sayeth the Lord.

But I also know what happened to Annias and Saphira, by a God who will not be mocked.

Well.... probably just muddied the waters here- but I don't expect everyone to think like I do. Just love me and I will love you back- we're good!

G
ginnyrose

I am late in checking in here, obviously.

Someone asked the question whether the American Revolution was an act of rebellion against God in regards to obeying your civil authority. I cannot find that question anymore but it is this one I would like to answer.

History teaches us that not all immigrants in this country were in cahoots with the American revolutionaries/patriots. These people were called Tories and other despicable names. Some were Anababptists who had immigrated to this country for freedom of religion and earnestly believed one is to not rise in rebellion to gov. If it does conflict with one serving the LORD you run or submit to whatever they will dish out to you.

And...the Anabaptists were not well treated by the Revolutionaries back then and I would expect the same kind of treatment if modern Christians would take the same stand.

EDIT: History also teaches us there were Anabaptists who did participate in war, just like some Mennonites did in Hitler's army, but this was not the norm.

ginnyrose

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sermonindex

by Sidewalk on 2013/10/20 22:24:27

Too much flesh and worldliness? Probably!

My reason for going in this direction had more to do with the notion that some believe that all conflict is bad, and that Christians should always abstain from deadly confrontations. While I understand the underpinnings of this view and respect those who hold it, I mostly don't.

In the animal world God gave us to observe and learn from, we see that most of God's creatures have built in ways to aggressively pursue prey and defend against becoming someone's lunch. All of this without moral restraint or eternal consequences!

But as human moral agents, we are forced into certain dilemmas as we pursue lunch and defend against being overcome by evil. For me, I believe there is ground to be held and ground to be surrendered, and the Holy Spirit will help me see the difference. Allowing evil to run over me or those I am charged by God to protect is going to be met with force- sometimes spiritual and sometimes physical.

But the big difference is that aggression and defense are not the same. People who set out to take something that belongs to another will equip themselves to overcome resistance. That's what I mean by the aggressor setting the rules. And when the defender recognizes what may be coming at him, he makes sure his defense is strong enough to hopefully dissuade the attacker. Some of this is just simple math and moral determination. When it is working well, peace reigns...with tension holding it there.

Jesus posed a bit of a question in Luke 14:31 where he considers the mind of a king wondering if he should go out to battle with 10,000 men against another king with 20,000. Or whether to send a delegation seeking terms of peace.

We live in a brutal world, and there are people out there plotting how to take what you have for themselves. Don't even get me started on Obamacare!

I know Jesus. I long for intimacy, and I long to be an effective witness for his kingdom which I love. I know the words of Isaiah 42, "a bruised reed He will not break, and a smoldering wick He will not extinguish."

Not by might nor by power but by My Spirit sayeth the Lord.

But I also know what happened to Annias and Saphira, by a God who will not be mocked.

Well.... probably just muddied the waters here- but I don't expect everyone to think like I do. Just love me and I will love you back- we're good!

You definitely muddled the waters! :-)

Just because Jesus used parables with soldiers in them, does not mean that He endorses the Church to take up arms (carnal weapons) to extend His kingdom.

God brought Ananias and Saphira to an end, not man.

Rom_12:19 Dearly beloved, avenge not yourselves, but rather give place unto wrath: for it is written, Vengeance is mine; I will repay, saith the Lord.

Avenge not yourselves is what the Holy Spirit tells Paul to write.

Do you believe Roman 12:19?

Rom 12:17 Recompense to no man evil for evil. Provide things honest in the sight of all men.

Can you give any examples of the Early Church rising up, rebelling, protesting, resisting the Roman occupation in their land?

S
sermonindex

I am late in checking in here, obviously.

Someone asked the question whether the American Revolution was an act of rebellion against God in regards to obeying your civil authority. I cannot find that question anymore but it is this one I would like to answer.

History teaches us that not all immigrants in this country were in cahoots with the American revolutionaries/patriots. These people were called Tories and other despicable names. Some were Anababptists who had immigrated to this country for freedom of religion and earnestly believed one is to not rise in rebellion to gov. If it does conflict with one serving the LORD you run or submit to whatever they will dish out to you.

And...the Anabaptists were not well treated by the Revolutionaries back then and I would expect the same kind of treatment if modern Christians would take the same stand.

EDIT: History also teaches us there were Anabaptists who did participate in war, just like some Mennonites did in Hitler's army, but this was not the norm.

ginnyrose

So, your answer is Yes, it was an act of rebellion against God for those Christians taking part in it?

G
ginnyrose

QUOTE:
______________________________________________________________

So, your answer is Yes, it was an act of rebellion against God for those Christians taking part in it?
______________________________________________________________

Yes. This is what these Christians believed back then.

Odd, is it not that these revolutionaries are now held in high esteem by the majority of Americans which raises some troubling questions: who is wrong, they or modern Christians?

ginnyrose

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sermonindex

Soon maybe, not only our "scriptural" beliefs on this matter will be tested, but our hearts, too. Often, we say that we believe something but until we are tested in a specific area, we really don't know how we will act. Life is full of surprises.

Some turn to Jesus and others turn away to a shipwrecked faith.

M
MaryJane

by ginnyrose on 2013/10/21 12:39:14

QUOTE:
______________________________________________________________

So, your answer is Yes, it was an act of rebellion against God for those Christians taking part in it?
______________________________________________________________

Yes. This is what these Christians believed back then.

Odd, is it not that these revolutionaries are now held in high esteem by the majority of Americans which raises some troubling questions: who is wrong, they or modern Christians?

ginnyrose

________________________

That does bring up an interesting question. I have often thought about this topic concerning the revolutionary war myself. Its interesting that even as a child in public school I can remember being taught that the cause of the war was Taxation with out representation(money). Interesting thanks for sharing here.


God bless
mj

M
MaryJane

by just-in on 2013/10/21 13:02:41

Soon maybe, not only our "scriptural" beliefs on this matter will be tested, but our hearts, too. Often, we say that we believe something but until we are tested in a specific area, we really don't know how we will act. Life is full of surprises.

Some turn to Jesus and others turn away to a shipwrecked faith.
__________________

One of the reason I really dislike "what if" questions is for this very reason. I only have today, and I pray daily that my heart, attitude and responses will always be in HIM.

God bless
mj

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sermonindex

One of the reason I really dislike "what if" questions is for this very reason. I only have today, and I pray daily that my heart, attitude and responses will always be in HIM.

God bless
mj

Yes, "what if" questions/scenarios are interesting. I think every time we read the Scriptures and encounter stories beyond our experience we automatically wonder (putting ourselves in the character's place) what we would do.

Would we really have the faith that Esther had? Would we have turned away from Bathsheba as David did not do? Would we have bathed openly knowing we were in King David's line of sight? Would we have become power hungry as Saul did, or greedy as Ananias and Sapphira? What is the condition of our heart? Do we walk after the flesh or after the Spirit? Many examples of both, in the Scriptures. These are all scenarios that should speak to us.

G
ginnyrose

QUOTE:
______________________________________________________________

Its interesting that even as a child in public school I can remember being taught that the cause of the war was Taxation with out representation(money).
______________________________________________________________

Depending on what philosophers you are listening to, some would declare the American Revolution unnecessary. Some have said this issue could have been resolved peaceably - with time. Others say the Americans needed an 'heritage'... In any case, blood was shed, families deprived of husbands, fathers, sons - much grief. Not only that it drove wedges of distrust between neighbors, friends. The only winners are those who manufacture the weapons and the ammunition.

How is that one can allow an issue like taxation drive wedges between yourself and others? On the other hand, are we not faced with a similar situation today? Opps, getting too political? Just don't start shooting...

History has a lot to teach us about human nature, its emotions when left to run its natural course. But them some would argue it was essential...

What would Jesus do?

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sermonindex

What would Jesus do? Well, He paid Caesar's tax. That should tell us everything we need to know besides what He said.

Caesar can tax you, but you can always render to God the things that are His, because God doesn't want your money, He just wants your heart.

This is where the "serving two Masters" comes in and whether God has our heart or mammon has it.

M
MaryJane

by just-in on 2013/10/21 16:21:14

What would Jesus do? Well, He paid Caesar's tax. That should tell us everything we need to know besides what He said.

Caesar can tax you, but you can always render to God the things that are His, because God doesn't want your money, He just wants your heart.

This is where the "serving two Masters" comes in and whether God has our heart or mammon has it.

______________________

Interesting then from an historical point of view do you think those who called themselves Christian in that time were serving money? Was the revolutionary war one that was born of rebellion or as many teach today one for liberty and freedom? If it was fought so that the colonies could have the freedoms they believed given to them by God then why did they with hold those freedoms from black people during that time?


Just my rambling thoughts on the topic. I do believe JESUS would have paid the tax and then been about HIS FATHER KINGDOM. I also believe JESUS wants our whole hearts.

Interesting thoughts. I love history and I often find there are lessons to be learned there.

God bless
maryjane

M
MaryJane

Ginnyrose wrote: In any case, blood was shed, families deprived of husbands, fathers, sons - much grief. Not only that it drove wedges of distrust between neighbors, friends. The only winners are those who manufacture the weapons and the ammunition.

_____________________

I read a a article a long time ago about the earliest Christians here from England. It was all about how wealthy business men used deceitful tactics to cheat those who had come to America into paying back five times what they owed. It was interesting because these Christians in that time felt it was so important to honor and obey God that they did not argue or fight against the unfair business practices, instead they paid as was required of them and gave thanks to GOD that they were able to do so. It was interesting reading about their faith, of course this was back in the 1600's.

God bless
mj

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sermonindex

MJ writes..........

"Interesting then from an historical point of view do you think those who called themselves Christian in that time were serving money? Was the revolutionary war one that was born of rebellion or as many teach today one for liberty and freedom? If it was fought so that the colonies could have the freedoms they believed given to them by God then why did they with hold those freedoms from black people during that time?"

What cannot be overlooked was the wealth of the men behind the revolutionary war and what they stood to lose, or secure, depending on the outcome.

George Washington was worth, in todays money 500 million.

John Adams was worth in todays money 19 million.

Thomas Jeffersom was worth in todays money 212 million.

James Madison was worth in todays money 101 million.

James Munro was worth in todays money 27 million.

John Quincy Adams was worth in todays money 21 million.

The poorest of the first 14 presidents was worth a paltry 5 million.

Now, a war over land and taxes when your worth so much, one can see that there were millions of reasons to fight that war. Just some of my thoughts on some of the reasons the war was actually fought against the Brits.........bro Frank

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sermonindex

I love ya laddie, in me love and in Jesus' love, wee neil

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sermonindex

It wasn't wrong for the Pilgrims to flee Europe and seek a new land to live in, away from the oppression of the King.

Even Jesus said, "when you see Jerusalem surrounded, flee".

It is not rebellion to leave a country (unless the Lord tells you to stay), and go to another.

But, other men came, too. Men not fully persuaded in their heart to live in peace.

Rom 12:18 If it be possible, as much as lieth in you, live peaceably with all men.

If it is not possible, then consider just LEAVING as the Pilgrims did.

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sermonindex

HI just-in, I think ye speak of the wrong rebellion :) Indeed it is not wrong to flee oppression, but I think we are talking about the revolutionary war and it's causes and what brought that about, which is a different story from what took place in the 150 years prior. The colonies were established, the freedoms, in as much as the pilgrims would allow freedoms ( certainly not free if you were black or poor or without land or property or Catholic or really anything other than Puritan) were there. So, again, the question posed was, was the revolutionary war a violation of Romans 13 and therefore not Godly at all, and if it was not Godly, then what were the real historical reasons for the revolutionary war.........bro Frank

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sermonindex

Hi Apollus,

I purposefully went back further, since I have heard people say the Pilgrims were in rebellion for leaving Europe. Unfortunately, I did not preface my post with the proper reasoning for my deviation.

In order to answer the query about Romans 13 which is written to the Church, we must first establish if the Church sanctioned the Revolutionary War. Undoubtedly, Church members fought in the war, but do you know of any documentation that states the Church leadership sanctioned and approved of the war? If they did, it probably exists, I just don't know where to look. Like today, there were probably 2 camps on this issue.

G
ginnyrose

Just-in, I did a bit of online research into your question, "but do you know of any documentation that states the Church leadership sanctioned and approved of the war?"

I found this site that hints how some religious folks felt about this issue. Take a look.

http://maass.nyu.edu/resources/r1/lesson_plans/religion.html

On another site I was reminded how the early colonies' gov supported a state church, similar to their European brethren. The great awakening worked to dismantle this but it took time.

Looks to me like some things never change. But the reading I did was informative.

What do you think, just-in?

S
sermonindex

I will do a little research into that bro, but I think what would also be helpful for those who do any kind of research to research the question " was their opposition," and if so, how much and how vocal? Silence is often just as wicked. I think of the south and the general silence to segregation. In times of war, clergy in general tend to follow and bless whatever side they find themselves on, meaning if the majority are for it, then so will they be. A notable exception was the Confessing Church of Germany in the 1930s............bro Frank

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sermonindex

"a notable exception" indeed.....and one of the salient voices, who has been PILLORIED....and slandered, on THIS VERY WEBSITE, was Dietrich Bonheoffer.

I love that dear saint, and I love reading "Life Together", have so quite a few times....they say he was involved in the plot to kill hitler ....as if that was a BAD thing to be involved in...but he WASNT, he was thrown in a concentration camp in 1943 BECAUSE of his leading role in the Confessing Church...if those servants of satan, the Nazi's had an INKLING, he was involved in the 20 July plot, they would have been ripping his fingernails off...instead they murdered Dietrich in the closing days of the war.

I always wondered why there was a contingent on this forum, that seems to "not like" or not think that Dietrich was a choice vessel of Jesus....bet its cause they think he was "liberal".

you know why the "church" in America is so limp and impotent?.....they're phony, they're not real....and that starts with the "pastors" whether they lead a "flock" of 30, or are one of the leading "luminaries", either on these terrible TV stations...or "on the circuit"...ie, public ministries, on the radio.

Myself?, the only two human men, pastors, who I listen to , ON MY KNEES, are Len Ravenhill and Duncan Campbell....because they are REAL, no acting, no religious posturing and preening....think about it, Duncan ADMITS that he went thru "17 years in a barren wilderness" AS A PAID PASTOR, until his wee lass of daughter lovingly posed a question to him in the early hours of the morning....and Len?...the closet man we had to a modern prophet.

Thank God, I have the recordings and video's of his "sermons"...they're not even LIKE these dreary "3 point" bad monologues I endure....you know what Len said?...I listened to it this very morning, a friend of his, a pastor, I think in the UK, had a small or dwindling congregation, across the way, he noticed people in LINES at the theater to see a play, around the block...so he wound up querying one of the actors, "how is this so?" and the actor responded, "we take what is artificial, and make it real, and you take what is Real and make it artificial".....its the video where Len is talking about Elijah.

and now there's this myth about the revolutionary war.."for freedom"....and our "founding fathers", and the genesis of it all....and right from the get, the whole thing is sinful.....keeping African slaves, while writing "all men are created equal"?.......not only KEEPING them, but subjecting them to the worst sort of abuses, murder, rape, violence?....and that's the face of freedom?....no! that's satan's spew....and today we still groan under the sin soaked dysfunction of such a beginning....the lot of the young black male in America?

forget the FACT that the most segregated hour of the week is Sunday at 10 AM....these revival conferences, anybody EVER make any reach out to black pastors?...please.

the first pastor I ever HEARD preach the Gospel at age 8, was a black man....and this Jewish man TODAY follows Jesus.

I really WISH this MOST HOLY FAITH was still "The Way", instead of "Christianity". its Faith versus "religion".

(Frank, I had a terrible sunday at one these amateur playhouses that call themselves "churches"....i'll call.)

P
proudpapa

///was their opposition," and if so, how much and how vocal?///

John Wesley : A Calm Address to the American Colonies
London, 1775

http://declaringamerica.com/wesley-a-calm-address-1775/

Excerpt

I am taxed; yet I am no slave. Ye nine in ten through­out Eng­land have no rep­re­sen­ta­tive, no vote; yet the are no slaves; they enjoy both civil and re­li­gious lib­erty to the ut­most ex­tent.

…

"Who then is a slave?” Look into Amer­ica, and you may eas­ily see. See that negro, faint­ing under the load, bleed­ing under the lash! He is a slave. And is there "no dif­fer­ence” be­tween him and his mas­ter? Yes; the one is scream­ing, "Mur­der! Slav­ery!” the other silently bleeds and dies!

"But wherein then con­sists the dif­fer­ence be­tween lib­erty and slav­ery?”

Herein: You and I, and the Eng­lish in gen­eral, go where we will, and enjoy the fruit of our labours: this is lib­erty. The negro does not: this is slav­ery.

Is not then all this out­cry about lib­erty and slav­ery mere rant, and play­ing upon words?

…

BRETHREN AND COUN­TRY­MEN,

1. The grand ques­tion which is now de­bated (and with warmth enough on both sides) is this, Has the Eng­lish par­lia­ment a right to tax the Amer­i­can colonies?

In order to de­ter­mine this, let us con­sider the na­ture of our colonies. An Eng­lish colony is, a num­ber of per­sons to whom the king grants a char­ter, per­mit­ting them to set­tle in some far coun­try as a cor­po­ra­tion, en­joy­ing such pow­ers as the char­ter grants, to be ad­min­is­tered in such a man­ner as the char­ter pre­scribes. As a cor­po­ra­tion they make laws for them­selves; but as a cor­po­ra­tion sub­sist­ing by a grant from higher au­thor­ity, to the con­trol of that au­thor­ity they still con­tinue sub­ject.

Con­sid­er­ing this, noth­ing can be more plain, than that the supreme power in Eng­land has a legal right of lay­ing any tax upon them for any end ben­e­fi­cial to the whole em­pire.

2. But you ob­ject, "It is the priv­i­lege of a free­man and an Eng­lish­man to be taxed only by his own con­sent. And this con­sent is given for every man by his rep­re­sen­ta­tives in par­lia­ment. But we have no rep­re­sen­ta­tives in par­lia­ment. There­fore we ought not to be taxed thereby.”

I an­swer, This ar­gu­ment proves too much. If the par­lia­ment can­not tax you be­cause you have no rep­re­sen­ta­tion therein, for the same rea­son it can make no laws to bind you. If a free­man can­not be taxed with­out his own con­sent, nei­ther can he be pun­ished with­out it; for what­ever holds with re­gard to tax­a­tion, holds with re­gard to all other laws. There­fore he who de­nies the Eng­lish par­lia­ment the power of tax­a­tion, de­nies it the right of mak­ing any laws at all. But this power over the colonies you have never dis­puted; you have al­ways ad­mit­ted statutes for the pun­ish­ment of of­fences, and for the pre­vent­ing or re­dress­ing of in­con­ve­niences; and the re­cep­tion of any law draws after it, by a chain which can­not be bro­ken, the ne­ces­sity of ad­mit­ting tax­a­tion.

3. But I ob­ject to the very foun­da­tion of your plea: That "every free­man is gov­erned by Laws to which he has con­sented”: as con­fi­dently as it has been as­serted, it is ab­solutely false. In wide-ex­tended do­min­ions, a very small part of the peo­ple are con­cerned in mak­ing laws. This, as all pub­lic busi­ness, must be done by del­e­ga­tion; the del­e­gates are cho­sen by a se­lect num­ber. And those that are not elec­tors, who are far the greater part, stand by, idle and help­less spec­ta­tors.
The case of elec­tors is lit­tle bet­ter. When they are near equally di­vided, in the choice of their del­e­gates to rep­re­sent them in the par­lia­ment or na­tional as­sem­bly, al­most half of them must be gov­erned, not only with­out, but even against, their own con­sent. And how has any man con­sented to those laws which were made be­fore he was born? Our con­sent to these, nay, and to the laws now made even in Eng­land, is purely pas­sive. And in every place, as all men are born the sub­jects of some state or other, so they are born, pas­sively, as it were, con­sent­ing to the laws of that state. Any other than this kind of con­sent, the con­di­tion of civil life does not allow.

…

But whence then is all this hurry and tu­mult? Why is Amer­ica all in an up­roar? If you can yet give your­selves time to think, you will see the plain case is this: ”“

A few years ago you were as­saulted by en­e­mies, whom you were not well able to re­sist. You rep­re­sented this to your mother coun­try, and de­sired her as­sis­tance. You was largely as­sisted, and by that means wholly de­liv­ered from all your en­e­mies.

After a time, your mother coun­try, de­sir­ing to be re­im­bursed for some part of the large ex­pense she had been at, laid a small tax (which she had al­ways a right to do) on one of her colonies.
But how is it pos­si­ble that the tak­ing this rea­son­able and legal step should have set all Amer­ica in a flame?

I will tell you my opin­ion freely; and per­haps you will not think it im­prob­a­ble. I speak the more freely, be­cause I am un­bi­assed ; I have noth­ing to hope or fear from ei­ther side. I gain noth­ing ei­ther by the gov­ern­ment or by the Amer­i­cans, and prob­a­bly never shall. And I have no prej­u­dice to any man in Amer­ica: I love you as my brethren and coun­try­men.

11. My opin­ion is this: We have a few men in Eng­land who are de­ter­mined en­e­mies to monar­chy. Whether they hate his pre­sent majesty on any other ground than be­cause he is a king I know not. But they cor­dially hate his of­fice, and have for some years been un­der­min­ing it with all dili­gence, in hopes of erect­ing their grand idol, their dear com­mon­wealth, upon its ruins.

I be­lieve they have let very few into their de­sign; (al­though many for­ward it, with­out know­ing any thing of the mat­ter); but they are steadily pur­su­ing it, as by var­i­ous other means, so in par­tic­u­lar by in­flam­ma­tory pa­pers, which are in­dus­tri­ously and con­tin­u­ally dis­persed through­out the town and coun­try; by this method they have al­ready wrought thou­sands of the peo­ple even to the pitch of mad­ness.

By the same, only var­ied ac­cord­ing to your cir­cum­stances, they have like­wise in­flamed Amer­ica. I make no doubt but these very men are the orig­i­nal cause of the pre­sent breach be­tween Eng­land and her colonies. And they are still pour­ing oil into the flame, stu­diously in­cens­ing each against the other, and op­pos­ing, under a va­ri­ety of pre­tences, all mea­sures or ac­com­mo­da­tion. So that, al­though the Amer­i­cans in gen­eral love the Eng­lish, and the Eng­lish in gen­eral love the Amer­i­cans, (all, I mean, that are not yet cheated and ex­as­per­ated by these art­ful men), yet the rup­ture is grow­ing wider every day, and none can tell where it will end.

These good men hope it will end in the total de­fec­tion of North Amer­ica from Eng­land. If this were ef­fected, they trust the Eng­lish in gen­eral would be so ir­rec­on­cil­ably dis­gusted, that they should be able, with or with­out for­eign as­sis­tance, en­tirely to over­turn the gov­ern­ment; es­pe­cially while the main of both the Eng­lish and Irish forces are at so con­ve­nient a dis­tance.

12. But, my brethren, would this be any ad­van­tage to you? Can you hope for a more de­sir­able form of gov­ern­ment, ei­ther in Eng­land or Amer­ica, than that which you now enjoy? After all the ve­he­ment cry for lib­erty, what more lib­erty can you have?

What more re­li­gious lib­erty can you de­sire, than that which you enjoy al­ready? May not every one among you wor­ship God ac­cord­ing to his own con­science? What civil lib­erty can you de­sire, which you are not al­ready pos­sessed of? Do not you sit, with­out re­straint, "every man under his own vine”? Do you not, every one, high or low, enjoy the fruit of your labour? This is real, ra­tio­nal lib­erty, such as is en­joyed by Eng­lish­men alone; and not by any other peo­ple in the hab­it­able world.

Would the being in­de­pen­dent of Eng­land make you more free? Far, very far from it. It would hardly be pos­si­ble for you to steer clear, be­tween an­ar­chy and tyranny. But sup­pose, after num­ber­less dan­gers and mis­chiefs, you should set­tle into one or more re­publics, would a re­pub­li­can gov­ern­ment give you more lib­erty, ei­ther re­li­gious or civil? By no means.

No gov­ern­ments under heaven are so despotic as the re­pub­li­can; no sub­jects are gov­erned in so ar­bi­trary a man­ner as those of a com­mon­wealth. If any one doubt of this, let him look at the sub­jects of Venice, of Genoa, or even of Hol­land. Should any man talk or write of the Dutch gov­ern­ment, as every cob­bler does of the Eng­lish, he would be laid in irons be­fore he knew where he was. And then, wo be to him! Re­publics show no mercy.

13. "But if we sub­mit to one tax, more will fol­low.” Per­haps so, and per­haps not. But if they did; if you were taxed (which is quite im­prob­a­ble) equal with Ire­land or Scot­land, still, were you to pre­vent this, by re­nounc­ing con­nec­tion with Eng­land, the rem­edy would be worse than the dis­ease. For O! what con­vul­sions must poor Amer­ica feel, be­fore any other gov­ern­ment was set­tled? In­nu­mer­able mis­chiefs must ensue, be­fore any gen­eral form could be es­tab­lished. And the grand mis­chief would ensue when it was es­tab­lished; when you had re­ceived a yoke which you could not shake off.

14. Brethren, open your eyes! Come to your­selves! Be no longer the dupes of de­sign­ing men! I do not mean any of your coun­try­men in Amer­ica; I doubt whether any of these are in the se­cret. The de­sign­ing men, the Ahithophels, are in Eng­land; those who have laid their scheme so deep, and cov­ered it so well, that thou­sands, who are ripen­ing it, sus­pect noth­ing at all of the mat­ter.

These well-mean­ing men, sin­cerely be­liev­ing that they are serv­ing their coun­try, ex­claim against griev­ances, which ei­ther never ex­isted, or are ag­gra­vated above mea­sure; and thereby in­flame the peo­ple more and more, to the wish of those who are be­hind the scene. But be not you duped any longer; do not ruin your­selves for them that owe you no good-will, that now em­ploy you only for their own pur­poses, and in the end will give you no thanks. They love nei­ther Eng­land nor Amer­ica, but play one against the other, in sub­serviency to their grand de­sign of over­turn­ing the Eng­lish gov­ern­ment.

Be warned in time; stand and con­sider, be­fore it is too late; be­fore you have en­tailed con­fu­sion and mis­ery on your lat­est pos­ter­ity. Have pity upon your mother coun­try! Have pity upon your own! Have pity upon your­selves, upon your chil­dren, and upon all that are near and dear to you! Let us not bite and de­vour one an­other, lest we be con­sumed one of an­other! O let us fol­low after peace! Let us put away our sins; the real ground of all our calami­ties; which never will or can be thor­oughly re­moved, till we fear God and ho­n­our the king!


P
proudpapa

Sir,

A pam­phlet, to which you have af­fixed your name, has been lately dis­trib­uted with un­com­mon dili­gence. You call it A Calm Ad­dress to our Amer­i­can Colonies. This title is a de­cep­tion; you know that the colonies are de­ter­mined: your de­sign is, to de­ceive un­de­ter­mined Eng­lish­men, into ap­pro­ba­tion of the mea­sures of ad­min­is­tra­tion.

You pre­sent your book to the world, as your own; but the great­est part of it is taken, ver­ba­tim, from Tax­a­tion No Tyranny, writ­ten by the pen­sioned Dr. John­son, a de­clared enemy of civil and re­li­gious lib­erty! This is an­other de­cep­tion, equally mean and ob­vi­ous.

Your first sec­tion con­tains John­son’s de­f­i­n­i­tion of an Eng­lish colony. It gives the idea of a num­ber of per­sons, who, by the king’s per­mis­sion, em­i­grated in search of sup­posed ad­van­tages, which, if ob­tained, were to be se­cured to them by char­ters.

But the colonists were a num­ber of per­sons, who fled from tyranny at home, to con­quer and cul­ti­vate new coun­tries at their own ex­pence. From the par­ent state, for above a cen­tury, they re­ceived lit­tle or no as­sis­tance: their mo­nop­o­lized com­merce was, at last, thought worth pro­tec­tion; their in­creased prop­erty is, now, thought worth tax­a­tion.

You say,

Con­sid­er­ing Eng­lish colonies are a kind of cor­po­ra­tions sub­sist­ing by char­ters, noth­ing can be more plain than that the supreme power in Eng­land has a right to tax them.

Do you mean, by the supreme power, the col­lec­tive body of king, lords, and com­mons? If you do, you must be ig­no­rant, that the Com­mons only have the power of tax­ing the peo­ple; that money is not taken, but given; that the con­cur­rence of the lords, in money bills, is only to tax them­selves; and that the con­cur­rence of the king, in such bills, is only to give them the force of law.

You say,

That the Eng­lish gov­ern­ment has made laws for the colonies, which laws they have re­ceived and obeyed; there­fore, the Eng­lish gov­ern­ment has a right to tax them: the re­cep­tion of any law draws after it, by a chain which can­not be bro­ken, the ne­ces­sity of ad­mit­ting tax­a­tion.

This is false: the acts of leg­is­la­tion, and tax­a­tion, are dis­tinct op­er­a­tions; the first is ex­er­cised by the three es­tates of king, lords, and com­mons, the last by the com­mons only. If the re­cep­tion of a law is an ac­knowl­edg­ment of sov­er­eignty, it is not an ac­knowl­edg­ment that such sov­er­eignty may be main­tained in an un­con­sti­tu­tional man­ner. Penal and eco­nom­i­cal laws are re­ceived and obeyed in Eng­land; the re­cep­tion of them may be deemed an ac­knowl­edg­ment of the sov­er­eignty of gov­ern­ment; but does not prove, that gov­ern­ment has a right to ab­ro­gate Magna Charta, abol­ish trial by jury, or vest in the king an ar­bi­trary power of levy­ing money on the sub­ject: such acts, though sanc­ti­fied by con­sent of the three es­tates, would be vi­o­la­tions of the con­sti­tu­tion, and, con­se­quently, void in them­selves, and "to be holden for nought.” 42 Ed. III. Lord Coke, Lord Somers, &c.

You next at­tempt to prove, that the colonies are as much rep­re­sented in the Eng­lish Par­lia­ment, as the ma­jor­ity of the peo­ple of Eng­land: "All pub­lic busi­ness,” you say, must be done by del­e­ga­tion; the del­e­gates are cho­sen by a se­lect num­ber; and those who are not elec­tors, who are by far the greater part, stand by idle and help­less spec­ta­tors.

That most pub­lick busi­ness must be done by del­e­ga­tion, is true; but the choice of del­e­gates, or rep­re­sen­ta­tives in Eng­land, was orig­i­nally in the peo­ple at large; the vest­ing it, af­ter­wards, in a se­lect num­ber, was a vari­a­tion made by con­sent of the peo­ple for the sake of con­ve­nience. The non-elec­tors, and elec­tors of Eng­land, are so blended to­gether, that the for­mer must often in­flu­ence the con­duct of the lat­ter; and hav­ing, thereby, a share in the power of elec­tion, can­not be said, "to stand by idle and help­less spec­ta­tors.”

"The case of elec­tors,” you say, "is lit­tle bet­ter; when they are near equally di­vided, al­most half of them must be gov­erned, not only with, but against their con­sent.”

This is a fal­lacy. The mi­nor­ity of elec­tors can­not be said to be gov­erned with­out their con­sent: they, in com­mon with oth­ers, have pre­vi­ously con­sented, that it should be law to issue the dis­pute by the voice of the ma­jor­ity; they have, there­fore, con­sented to be gov­erned by him, on whom the choice of that ma­jor­ity shall fall.

You en­deav­our, by gen­eral po­si­tions boldly as­serted, to rep­re­sent gov­ern­ment and slav­ery as in­sep­a­ra­ble. "How has any man,” you say,con­sented to those laws, which were made be­fore he was born? Our con­sent to these, nay and to the laws now made in Eng­land, is purely pas­sive. In every place, as all men are born the sub­jects of some state or other, so they are born, pas­sively as it were, con­sent­ing to the laws of that state. Any other than this kind of con­sent, the con­di­tion of civil life does not allow.

This is false: The Eng­lish con­sti­tu­tion has bet­ter pro­vided for the preser­va­tion of lib­erty. Our con­sent to the laws by which we are ruled, is so far ac­tive, that we may in a man­ner be said to make them: "The com­mons may be said to make law,” says John­son him­self, in his False Alarm; it then suited his pur­pose to say so. The peo­ple at large may, in­deed, be said to make law. They de­sire to have some penal or eco­nom­i­cal law for gen­eral ben­e­fit; they in­struct their del­e­gates; a bill is brought into the House of Com­mons; the king may refuse the royal as­sent, but then the House may refuse sup­plies. Sup­pose the opin­ions of the con­stituents, and the del­e­gates, are op­po­site; the lat­ter re­ject the bill: their of­fice is not per­pet­ual, nor ir­re­spon­si­ble; at seven years end they may be dis­carded, and their places filled with more com­pli­ant or more faith­full suc­ces­sors. Vice versa: sup­pose a law, pro­posed by any of the three es­tates of gov­ern­ment, is thought op­pres­sive, or oth­er­wise of­fen­sive, by the peo­ple: the mea­sure is talked of; they pe­ti­tion, they re­mon­strate; per­haps they suc­ceed; per­haps they do not: in the lat­ter case, the griev­ance is not eter­nal; a new par­lia­ment may re­peal what the old one en­acted. If the mea­sure be not a favourite court mea­sure, and the royal as­sent, as be­fore, be de­nied; then sup­plies, as be­fore, may be with­holden, till that as­sent is granted. If the peo­ple have less in­flu­ence over the sec­ond es­tate, the House of Lords; still that house may be sup­posed to con­sist of men, guided by rea­son, and wish­ing to act in con­so­nance with the rest of their coun­try­men.

Such are the ad­van­tages of our ex­cel­lent con­sti­tu­tion! Blush, if ye can, ye John­sons and ye Wes­leys, who are en­deav­our­ing to de­stroy the idea of them, in the minds of un­wary read­ers; en­deav­our­ing to per­swade men, that they are in­evitably born slaves! If Eng­lish­men are slaves, whose con­sent to the laws they are ruled by, is merely pas­sive; it is not the fault of their po­lit­i­cal sys­tem, but of their own cor­rup­tion of morals, and supine­ness of spirit.

It is the usual art of the court writ­ers of the day, to aim at sink­ing all ideas of nat­ural eq­uity, and of gen­eral pop­u­lar fran­chises founded thereon, in the idea of ab­solute un­con­di­tional gov­ern­ment, pre­tend­ing such gov­ern­ment in­dis­pen­si­ble to the sub­sis­tence of civil so­ci­ety.

You say,

If the an­ces­tors of the colonists were sub­jects, they ac­knowl­edged a sov­er­eign; if they had a right to Eng­lish priv­i­leges, they were ac­count­able to Eng­lish laws; and had ceded, to the king and Par­lia­ment, the power of dis­pos­ing, with­out their con­sent, of their lives, lib­er­ties, and prop­er­ties.

This is both false and ab­surd. No Eng­lish­man ever ceded, to any king, ab­solute power over his life or lib­erty. That pre­cious re­main of an­cient free­dom, trial by jury, ever stood and now stands an in­su­per­a­ble bar against the power of sov­er­eign over sub­ject.

No free­man shall be taken, or im­pris­oned, nor dis­seized, nor out-lawed, nor ex­iled, nor de­stroyed in any man­ner; nor will we pass upon him, nor con­demn him, but by the law­full judg­ment of his peers, or by the law of the land. Magna Charta, §. 43.

No Eng­lish­man ever ceded, to any king, any power over his prop­erty: the right of tax­a­tion, as has been shewn, is ex­clu­sively vested in the peo­ple. No Eng­lish­man ever ceded, to the par­lia­ment, a power over his life, lib­erty, and prop­erty: he could not cede it to the lords, for the lords, with­out the com­mons, can­not make law; he could not cede it to the com­mons, for ced­ing it to the com­mons, would, prop­erly speak­ing, be ced­ing it to him­self. The force of truth is often too strong, for every ef­fort that can be made to con­ceal it. You talk of "the peo­ple ced­ing power to the king and Par­lia­ment”: if they ceded power, they must have pos­sessed it. Nemo dat quod non habet: what a man has not, he can­not give to an­other; what is given, if abused, may surely be re­sumed. If the doc­trine of re­sum­able power is not ad­mit­ted, the doc­trine of di­vine hered­i­tary right must be main­tained. The first king of every coun­try, must have reigned by di­vine ap­point­ment; and all his suc­ces­sors, be their con­duct what it will, must reign by the same title; their sub­jects must be hered­i­tary slaves, whose lives and prop­er­ties may be sported with, as men shoot birds, and catch fish, for di­ver­sion. Eng­lish­men! be­ware of these in­sid­i­ous rea­son­ers; these John­sons and Wes­leys, who would per­suade you that ye are born slaves!

You admit (as above), that there are orig­i­nal rights of hu­man­ity. You tell us, that when the colonists say they are in­ti­tled, by na­ture, to life, lib­erty and prop­erty, they speak true; that when they claim a title to the rights of nat­ural born sub­jects within the realm of Eng­land, they speak true also””but you as­sert, that "they must re­sign ei­ther one or the other.” This is no con­se­quence.

The rights of na­ture, and of civil so­ci­ety, are not in­com­pat­i­ble; the for­mer are mostly guar­antied by the lat­ter. A man has a nat­ural right to the pos­ses­sions of his par­ents, or to those which he has ob­tained by his own labour; and the laws of so­ci­ety, which pro­hibit fraud and rap­ine, in­stead of de­stroy­ing that right, con­tribute to se­cure it. A man has a nat­ural right to life and lib­erty: on en­ter­ing civil so­ci­ety, he does not cede this right, only in cer­tain stip­u­lated cir­cum­stances, for the good of that whole whereof he be­comes a part; while he is in­no­cent, he is safe and free.

A man has a nat­ural right to his own prop­erty: this, on en­ter­ing civil so­ci­ety, he does not cede at all: he, in­deed, by a kind of tacit com­pact, agrees to sub­scribe his share to the ex­pence of pub­lic se­cu­rity and pub­lic œcon­omy, as the ne­ces­sity of times may re­quire; but, as no ra­tio­nal being would lav­ish his wealth with­out equiv­a­lent, he has re­served to him­self the sole de­ter­mi­na­tion of the ex­is­tence or de­gree of that ne­ces­sity.*

If he does not prop­erly re­gard the pub­lick wel­fare, it is at his own risque; he is more or less a gainer, as it is more or less con­sulted. Of this gen­eral prin­ci­ple, an Eng­lish House of Com­mons, in its pri­mar­ily in­tended in­cor­rupt state, is a vis­i­ble mod­i­fi­ca­tion; money, there, is granted, not taken; grant­ing, not tak­ing, is the lan­guage of the con­sti­tu­tion in all ages.

Such are the sim­ple prin­ci­ples of free gov­ern­ment, in con­tradis­tinc­tion to tyranny! Prin­ci­ples, alas, too lit­tle known, too much ob­scured by the glare of ad­ven­ti­tious pomp and pur­chased power!

You say, that "the colonists, by em­i­gra­tion, did not for­feit the right of vot­ing for rep­re­sen­ta­tives in the Eng­lish Par­lia­ment; but lost it by nat­ural ef­fects.” But the priv­i­lege of vot­ing for, or chus­ing a deputy or proxy, to ex­e­cute the of­fice of a taxer; can be con­sid­ered as a per­sonal ad­van­tage, only in coun­ter­poise to the per­sonal bur­den of tax­a­tion: now, if the good be lost by nat­ural ef­fects, the evil should not be re­tained by un­nat­ural po­lit­i­cal ones. There are things called right rea­son, eq­uity, and jus­tice, though they may not hap­pen to exist in the ideas of Dr. John­son and Mr. Wes­ley.

When a man re­moves to a dis­tance, from the part of civil so­ci­ety with which he was con­nected, he can no longer enjoy the ben­e­fits of its po­lit­i­cal sys­tem; and, there­fore, can­not justly be as­sessed to its main­te­nance.

If the colonists have hith­erto sup­ported the ad­min­is­tra­tion of jus­tice, and other branches of in­ter­nal polity, among them­selves; what ra­tio­nal plea can be made, for re­quir­ing them to sup­port them among us? Can a per­son be ex­pected to pay for the same thing, in two places?

You say,

He who had a vote for a knight or burgess, did not for­feit that right by cross­ing the sea, but made the ex­er­cise of it no longer pos­si­ble; he re­duced him­self from a voter to one of the in­nu­mer­able mul­ti­tude that have no votes.

But if such a man was still li­able to be taxed by the Eng­lish Par­lia­ment, he re­duced him­self to a much worse con­di­tion.

Non-elec­tors (as has been hinted) have, in Eng­land, much in­flu­ence in elec­tions: per­sua­sion and in­for­ma­tion, have their weight; the man of su­pe­rior op­u­lence or knowl­edge, with­out a vote him­self, can di­rect the voices of a num­ber.

But an Amer­i­can can have no pos­si­ble in­flu­ence in the choice of an Eng­lish sen­a­tor; and an Eng­lish sen­a­tor, when he taxes an Amer­i­can, can­not tax him­self also, be­cause he has no prop­erty in Amer­ica to be taxed: yet self-tax­a­tion is the sole pledge of the taxer, for se­cu­rity of the taxed. He, who does not tax him­self, taxes oth­ers with­out feel­ing: he may, there­fore, tax with­out pro­pri­ety, and with­out mea­sure; may take, not only a fifth, or a fourth, but the half, or even the whole of prop­erty; and make the wealthy sub­ject an im­pov­er­ished slave. The wis­est forms of gov­ern­ment, ad­vert­ing to the im­per­fec­tion of human na­ture, have, as much as pos­si­ble, avoided leav­ing one man at the mercy of an­other; they have ever con­trived some ra­tio­nal re­straint on ac­tion, some bond of rec­i­p­ro­cal safety.

You allow, that "the colonists in­herit all the priv­i­leges of Eng­lish­men, all the priv­i­leges that their an­ces­tors had.” They then in­herit the grand priv­i­lege of Eng­lish­men, free gov­ern­ment; but this priv­i­lege they do not enjoy, if they are taxed with­out being rep­re­sented. It is an axiom which can­not be too forcibly im­pressed on the mind "Gov­ern­ment can­not be free, where prop­erty is taken not given.”

You say,

what the an­ces­tors of the colonists did not bring with them, nei­ther they nor their de­scen­dants have ac­quired. They have not, by aban­don­ing their right in one leg­is­la­tion, ac­quired a right to con­sti­tute an­other; any more than the mul­ti­tudes in Eng­land, who have no vote, have a right to erect a par­lia­ment for them­selves.

You be­fore said, "they had lost their right in the Eng­lish leg­is­la­ture, by nat­ural ef­fects.” There is dif­fer­ence be­tween aban­don­ing, and los­ing by nat­ural ef­fects; one is a vol­un­tary, one an in­vol­un­tary mat­ter: you have not proved that they ei­ther aban­doned this right, or lost it; if they have ei­ther aban­doned, or lost it, and have no right to con­sti­tute an­other sys­tem, they must be slaves, or re­vert to a state of an­ar­chy. Were the body of elec­tors, in Eng­land, to be­come so cor­rupt or servile, as con­stantly to rechuse men, who had be­trayed the cause of lib­erty; and were such men to sub­vert the con­sti­tu­tion; would not the non-elec­tors have a right to chuse a num­ber of hon­ester del­e­gates, to re­store their abol­ished free­dom, to save their coun­try?

You say,

the colonies have a right to all the priv­i­leges granted them by regal char­ters, to all which the king has given them; but not to all which they have given them­selves.

The first part of your as­ser­tion is un­doubt­edly true; but it is couched in terms, that might bet­ter be­come the despot of some bar­barous re­gion, whose ig­no­rant na­tives had im­bibed.

"The enor­mous faith of many made for one,” than the ad­vo­cate of a gov­ern­ment that calls it­self free. What right has any king to any thing (sav­ing his own pri­vate prop­erty) which is not given him by the peo­ple? If the king is the foun­tain of ho­n­ours and riches, whence is that foun­tain sup­plied? Whence does he de­rive the pre­rog­a­tive of con­fer­ring ho­n­ours, the abil­ity of be­stow­ing rich­es­but from the peo­ple?

If the colonists are the naked sons of na­ture, they have a right to in­de­pen­dence, and the en­ac­tion of their own laws; if they are sub­jects of the free Eng­lish state, they have a right to the grand priv­i­lege of other Eng­lish­men, a priv­i­lege which no king could con­fer””leg­is­la­tion, and tax­a­tion by rep­re­sen­ta­tion only. The as­ser­tion, that "they are vir­tu­ally rep­re­sented,” has been proved an ab­sur­dity; a sophism, which even you could scarcely re­peat, with a se­ri­ous coun­te­nance.

Your com­par­i­son of "a colo­nial leg­is­la­ture to the vestry of an Eng­lish parish,” proves noth­ing to the great point in ques­tion, the le­gal­ity of tax­a­tion with­out rep­re­sen­ta­tion. The parish as­sesses it­self, in its parochial ca­pac­ity, for local pri­vate uses; in its na­tional ca­pac­ity, by its rep­re­sen­ta­tives, for gen­eral pub­lick ones.

The colonies have no rep­re­sen­ta­tives; there­fore, can­not be li­able to par­lia­men­tary tax­a­tion.

You say, "the char­ter of Pen­syl­va­nia has a clause ad­mit­ting, in ex­press terms, tax­a­tion by Par­lia­ment.” Why did you not then pro­duce this clause, that your read­ers might have judged of its mean­ing and im­port for them­selves? You do not even tell us the na­ture of the tax­a­tion; whether it was in­ter­nal or ex­ter­nal; whether levied by them­selves, or by oth­ers. You add, "the first set­tlers in Mass­a­chu­sett’s were promised an ex­emp­tion from taxes for seven years.” But promised by whom? If the char­ter con­tains such a promise, it must be made by the king who granted the char­ter; but the king could not legally promise an ex­emp­tion from that which he had not legally a right to im­pose. I have not time nor op­por­tu­nity to ex­am­ine fully the truth of your as­ser­tions: but though I give you credit for them so far, as to admit that there are some such clauses as you men­tion; yet your dis­en­gen­u­ous con­duct, in re­tail­ing John­son’s book with­out ac­knowl­edg­ment, makes me justly doubt the truth of your rep­re­sen­ta­tions. Those clauses could re­late, not to tax­a­tion, but to req­ui­si­tion only: the right of tax­a­tion did not sub­sist with the king; it did not sub­sist with the Par­lia­ment; it sub­sisted solely and ex­clu­sively with the rep­re­sen­ta­tives of the Mass­a­chu­sett’s peo­ple; and all the ex­emp­tion promised that peo­ple could amount to no more than this, that the king would not re­quire any sub­si­dies from them for seven years. To serve your own pur­pose, you say, in­deed, af­ter­wards, that "the seven years ex­emp­tion granted to the Mass­a­chu­sett set­tlers, was from pay­ing taxes to the king.” Then it may be justly in­ferred, that they were sub­si­dies de­manded by the king in way of req­ui­si­tion, not taxes im­posed by Par­lia­ment: had the case been oth­er­wise, it would have been pro­duced, be­fore now, as a prece­dent for ex­ter­nal tax­a­tion. What opin­ion the provin­cials had of ex­ter­nal tax­a­tion above a hun­dred years ago, ap­pears from an ar­ti­cle in the agree­ment made by the Vir­gini­ans with the com­mon­wealth of Eng­land, be­fore they would per­mit a gov­er­nor sent by that com­mon­wealth to land in their province: "Vir­ginia shall be free from all taxes, cus­toms, and im­po­si­tions what­so­ever; and none shall be im­posed upon them, with­out con­sent of the gen­eral as­sem­bly.”*

"All coun­tries,” you say, "which are sub­ject to laws, are li­able to taxes.” Per­haps so; but, per­haps, they are only li­able to taxes, raised in a con­sti­tu­tional man­ner; per­haps it has not been usual, for the gov­ern­ment of one coun­try to tax the in­hab­i­tants of an­other, many thou­sand miles dis­tant. If such tax­a­tion were founded on rea­son, might not the Ger­man princes think of tax­ing the Ger­mans set­tled in Pen­syl­va­nia and New-York? If the tie of birth, be­tween sov­er­eign and sub­ject, is in­dis­sol­u­ble by dis­tance and time, they have a pre­tence for doing it.

You say,

if there is no clause in the char­ters of the colonies ex­empt­ing them from taxes, the Eng­lish Par­lia­ment has the same right to tax them as to tax any other Eng­lish sub­ject.

Your ar­gu­ment here has been an­swered; I only quote it to demur once more to your mode of ex­pres­sion: the Par­lia­ment, col­lec­tively con­sid­ered, has no right to tax any Eng­lish­man; it is the Com­mons, and the Com­mons only, who pos­sess the pe­cu­liar in­com­mu­ni­ca­ble power of grant­ing taxes for the peo­ple. This is not quib­bling about mere in­signif­i­cant ex­pres­sions: Tak­ing and giv­ing (I re­peat it) are terms af­fixed to ideas, which con­sti­tute the im­por­tant dif­fer­ence be­tween tyranny and free­dom.

I have now gone through the sum total of your ar­gu­ments, which are every one, with­out ex­cep­tion, bor­rowed from John­son: the re­main­der of your book is as­ser­tion, and decla­ma­tion; it mer­its lit­tle no­tice.

An ar­gu­ment, which op­er­ates more in favour of the colonists, than any that John­son has ad­vanced op­er­ates against them, is this: That the Eng­lish gov­ern­ment, under the wis­est ad­min­is­tra­tions, and in the most ne­ces­si­tous cir­cum­stances, never, till lately, at­tempted to tax them. If gov­ern­ment had that right of tax­a­tion, why did they not exert it? Per­haps, we are wiser than our fa­thers; wiser than those great states­men, who planned and per­fected the glo­ri­ous rev­o­lu­tion, and gave the crown to the Brunswick fam­ily. Our fa­thers made Eng­land the dread of Eu­rope; Heaven grant their sons may not make it the con­tempt of its mean­est enemy! If we are wiser than our fa­thers, I wish we were hon­ester: our fa­thers did not plun­der the East; we have plun­dered the East; let us not at­tempt to plun­der the West also! Let not Eng­lish­man be a word of dis­grace among all na­tions, a word syn­ony­mous with rob­ber!

It has been said, "The longer the colonists have been spared pay­ing taxes, the bet­ter able they are, and the greater rea­son they have to pay.” Till the jus­tice of tax­ing them at all, is clearly demon­strated, this ar­gu­ment is fu­tile; it is the moral­ity of those, who deem it less crim­i­nal to plun­der him who has not been plun­dered be­fore, than to plun­der again him who has suf­fered pre­vi­ous depre­da­tion. It were to be wished, that we were less in­ter­ested; at least, that we did not suf­fer our in­ter­est to out­run our virtue. "If Amer­ica is taxed,” it is said, "Eng­land will be eased of taxes.” Ease from taxes, is an al­lur­ing ob­ject to an Eng­lish­man””but, dur­ing a thir­teen years pro­found peace, what ease from taxes have Eng­lish­men ex­pe­ri­enced? What we have not had in the past, can we have rea­son to ex­pect in the fu­ture? We have not been eased in peace, but we are to be eased in war; eased by the taxes of a con­quered coun­try, which, in the act of con­quer­ing, we have laid des­o­late! Can we be the dupes of such self-con­tra­dic­tory pre­tences? Sup­pos­ing it pos­si­ble we could ob­tain, by con­quest, a small ac­ces­sion to our prop­erty; could we enjoy it with the re­flec­tion, that it was ob­tained by the mis­eries of our own species? Could we revel in lux­u­ries, bought with the price of blood, the blood of our coun­try­men? It is said, "We have pro­tected the colonists, and that they ought to pay for our pro­tec­tion.” Have they not paid for it by the ben­e­fits of their com­merce? Have not two of our own Par­lia­ments ac­knowl­edged, that they paid more than their quota of the ex­pence of last war? A war, not com­menced, as has been pre­tended, out of dis­in­ter­ested re­gard for them; but to se­cure the prof­its of their trade; a trade, which, had they be­come sub­jects to France, must have been lost to Eng­land””to se­cure the bal­ance of Eu­ro­pean power””to pre­vent the ag­gran­dize­ment of our nat­ural en­e­mies.

In page [416], you have stated the case, per­haps you think, fairly. Give me leave to draw a par­al­lel””par­al­lels have, prob­a­bly, been often of use to you, at the foundry. We feel best for an­other, when we put our­selves in his place; the trans­po­si­tion is, ar­gu­men­tum ad hominem.

Sup­pose pop­ery es­tab­lished in Eng­land. Pop­ery, you know, is in­tol­er­ant””burn, or con­form, are its al­ter­na­tives. You, and your dis­ci­ples, pro­fess to ap­prove of nei­ther. A cer­tain num­ber of you em­bark for the coast of New Zealand””you find part of the coun­try un­in­hab­ited; your fire arms give you ad­van­tage over the sav­ages of the rest. You form a set­tle­ment; you cul­ti­vate the ground; es­tab­lish man­u­fac­tures, and grow rich: you might ex­port some of your com­modi­ties to Batavia, on very ad­van­ta­geous terms. Capt. Cook, in the course of his voy­age, hap­pens to touch on this same coast of New Zealand: the Eng­lish gov­ern­ment, and, in­deed, every Eng­lish­man (who had heard that there was such a place) take it, there­fore, into their heads to think it their own: they send a ship, to in­form you that they think so; and to tell you, that you must not traf­fick with Batavia, but only with them; and that they will ac­cept the prof­its of the trade, as a ground rent, an ac­know[ledge]ment of their sov­er­eignty. The Dutch grow jeal­ous of your ris­ing state; they send a fleet, and army, to at­tack and dis­pos­sess you. War is main­tained with var­i­ous suc­cess: you apply to Eng­land for as­sis­tance; Eng­land as­sists you: you not only con­tinue your ex­clu­sive com­merce with her, but con­tribute to the ex­pence she has sus­tained by as­sist­ing you. After all, when you ex­pect no such mat­ter, comes a peremp­tory man­date from Eng­land,

We have pro­tected you; we will be paid for our pro­tec­tion””we will have half the fruits of your labour, half the in­come of your lands, and man­u­fac­tures, for ever.

Lay your hand upon your heart, Mr. Wes­ley, and say, would you then de­fend the mea­sures of gov­ern­ment, as le­nient and eq­ui­table? Or would you hes­i­tate (if able) to act the mod­ern Amer­i­can?

You as­sert, that

There are men in Eng­land, de­ter­mined en­e­mies to monar­chy, who wish to change the gov­ern­ment into a re­pub­lick.

I can­not think that you be­lieve your own as­ser­tion. It is well known, that the re­pub­li­can form does not suit the ge­nius of the na­tion; still less would it suit the char­ac­ter of the age. Com­mon­wealths are not pro­lifick in ho­n­ours and emol­u­ments, nor pro­pi­tious to grandeur and pro­fu­sion””com­mon­wealths must be founded by men of se­vere virtue, and strict self-de­nial. A much more prob­a­ble sup­po­si­tion is, that some of the op­po­nents of ad­min­is­tra­tion wish only to fill the seats of those whom they op­pose; but the num­ber, even of these, it is to be hoped is but small.

I know of no Eng­lish­man, who hates ei­ther the kingly of­fice, or the prince by whom it is now ex­er­cised. I be­lieve there are some mil­lions of hon­est Eng­lish­men, who per­ceive, with in­ex­press­ible grief and ter­ror, our ex­cel­lent con­sti­tu­tion, planned by the best and wis­est of our an­ces­tors, and main­tained with their blood, grad­u­ally de­vi­at­ing from its prim­i­tive pu­rity: they see the regal es­tate, like Aaron’s ser­pent, swal­low­ing up the de­mo­c­ra­t­i­cal; they see the in­flu­ence of the crown over the Com­mons be­com­ing so un­lim­ited, that the dic­tates of the human will are not more im­plic­itly obeyed by the mem­bers of the human body, than the for­mer is by the lat­ter; they see part of the elec­tive body be­come so cor­rupt, that the in­tent of one prin­ci­pal se­cu­rity of Eng­lish lib­erty, the cir­cum­stance of a sen­a­tor va­cat­ing his seat on ac­cep­tance of a place, is now en­tirely frus­trated; they see this cor­rup­tion is an evil, which noth­ing can pre­vent the ef­fects of, but such an ab­solute in­ca­pac­i­ta­tion of place­men, that they can­not be re-cho­sen””but those who per­ceive these, and many other fla­grant per­ver­sions of our glo­ri­ous con­sti­tu­tion, far from wish­ing to sub­vert that con­sti­tu­tion, wish only to re­store it to its pris­tine in­tegrity.

There are also, I be­lieve, many thou­sand of hon­est Eng­lish­men, who wish well to their coun­try and its lib­er­ties, but are ig­no­rant what its con­sti­tu­tion is, and, con­se­quently, can­not know when it is vi­o­lated: these are the men, who can­not fear dan­ger, till they feel evil; these are the men, whom the John­sons and the Wes­leys seek to de­ceive out of their birthright, and per­suade them they are slaves.

You boast of our pre­sent lib­erty, civil and re­li­gious: "Every man,” you say, "sits under his own vine, and under his own fig-tree.” It is not my busi­ness, nor de­sire, to point out every minute step, by which I think lib­erty is los­ing ground. No­body de­nies, that we do enjoy a rea­son­able share of lib­erty, at pre­sent””but is no re­gard due to the fu­ture? There is, surely, some dif­fer­ence in the tenure, by which we hold a pos­ses­sion: the lessee in per­petuum, is, surely, in a bet­ter sit­u­a­tion, than the ten­ant at will.

Some have said, ar­bi­trary gov­ern­ment, well ad­min­is­tered, is the best mode of gov­ern­ment; but how many chances are there against its good ad­min­is­tra­tion?

We have now a good prince upon the throne; but who can en­sure the char­ac­ter of his suc­ces­sors? Should the crown ob­tain ple­nary pos­ses­sion of the Par­lia­ment, leav­ing it only a form with­out a spirit; where will be the dif­fer­ence be­tween the in­hab­i­tants of France and Spain, and our pos­ter­ity? where will be the dif­fer­ence be­tween those who are ruled by the com­mand of one man, is­sued im­me­di­ately from his own mouth; and those, who are ruled by the com­mand of one man, is­sued me­di­ately through the mouths of many?

I shall now, sir, take my leave of you and your per­for­mance. I have no at­tach­ment to, or con­nec­tion of any kind with the colonists; I have no con­cern in the mat­ter. I may say, as you say, and per­haps with more sin­cer­ity, "I shall get noth­ing by ei­ther party.”””But, I am a friend, on prin­ci­ple, to the orig­i­nal uni­ver­sal rights of man.

As I have for­merly seen you, with plea­sure, in the char­ac­ter of a Chris­t­ian min­is­ter, doing some good in the moral world; so it is, with re­gret, I now see you in the char­ac­ter of a court syco­phant, doing much more mis­chief in the po­lit­i­cal world, in­jur­ing, per­haps ir­repara­bly in­jur­ing your coun­try.

Postscript

You ask, "Did the peo­ple give William the Con­queror the power?”

An able writer and em­i­nent states­man (Lord Somers) pos­i­tively as­serts, that the peo­ple did give William the power:

William the first (who is un­justly stiled the Con­queror, hav­ing sub­dued none but Harold and those who abet­ted him) did ob­tain the crown, by a free choice and sub­mis­sion of the peers, and body of the peo­ple: and, be­fore his coro­na­tion, he was made to swear, that he would gov­ern the peo­ple justly, and keep and ob­serve to them their old laws.

This is a strik­ing in­stance of the high sense the peo­ple of Eng­land once had of their own im­por­tance.

You as­sert, "that the peo­ple never gave the supreme power to any, but Mas­saniello of Naples.” If you mean the supreme ex­ec­u­tive power, the Eng­lish his­tory re­peat­edly con­tra­dicts your as­ser­tion. Give me leave to ask you””Who gave that power to Charles II. at the Restora­tion? to William III. at the Rev­o­lu­tion? and, af­ter­wards, to the house of Hanover?

http://declaringamerica.com/anonymous-a-constitutional-answer-to-wesleys-calm-address-1775/

S
sermonindex

It seems perfectly clear from the long and studied replies to Wesley that the men who opposed Wesley had their heart set on a kingdom of this world and were caught up in politics and taxes. Wesley, on the other hand, spent the better part of his life on the work of God's kingdom. I wonder who heard these words from the Lord " well done good and faithful servant, enter into the joy of the Lord," those who strove to keep as much money as they could and rebelled against authorities and set up their own kingdom here on earth, or those like Wesley who died worth $10, had a Bible and a cloak?

I already mentioned that the poorest President of the first 14 presidents was worth 5 million, while men like Washington and Jefferson were worth 500 and 201 million respectively. Where your treasure is, that is where your heart is. There are those who store up and amass a treasure here on earth, and then there are men like Wesley............bro Frank

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