What is the difference between the old covenant vs. the new covenant.

What is the difference between the old covenant vs. the new covenant?

That is a most excellant question for discussion.

I think another most excellant question for discussion would be when did the new covenant begin.

What is the difference between the old covenant vs. the new covenant.

Law vs Grace

The Old testament establishes that the law is the holy transcript of the Character of God.

The New Testament is the placement of that law into the heart and soul of man.

And then there are details...

just-in said,

"A scripture to go with your succinct answer, proudpapa.

John 1:17 For the law was given by Moses, BUT grace and truth came by Jesus Christ."

Not so just-in!

Consider this:

John 1:17, For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ. KJV

Observe: First, though appearing to present a "grace-law antithesis," the word but is added to the text; it is, consequently, unwise to suppose a doctrine, especially one as evil as militancy between God's grace and God's law, on the translators' added word.

John 1:17 with no added words says, "For the law through Moses was given; grace and truth came through Jesus Christ."

Additionally, the enemy's perversion of "UNDER GRACE, NOT LAW" logically means that Christ, the Word of God, militated against God's law.

Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil, Matthew 5:17.

"Therefore, to make the law as given at the Mount an antithesis of the abundant grace of God is clearly a very wicked sin." - Ovid Need

In a nutshell:

OC - "Thou shalt; thou shalt not"
NC - "I will"

RE: ///Observe: First, though appearing to present a "grace-law antithesis," the word but is added to the text; it is, consequently, unwise to suppose a doctrine, especially one as evil as militancy between God's grace and God's law, on the translators' added word.///

Is Ovid Need saying that the enemy perverted the Scripture by adding the word but ?

RE: /// the enemy's perversion of "UNDER GRACE, NOT LAW" logically means that Christ, the Word of God, militated against God's law. ///

The enemy misconstrues the Grace of our God for lasciviousness he also misconstrues Believers back under the law of sin and death.

RE: /// Additionally, the enemy's perversion of "UNDER GRACE, NOT LAW" logically means that Christ, the Word of God, militated against God's law. ///

Biblical Grace and what I was reffering to by Law vs Grace is :

Romans 6:14
For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.

Romans 8:2
For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death

Yes,...I too,like ed the question Arthur ,

Also appreciated just-in'.....
Law vs Grace

The difference I see,
Law: it is written,...we were to look ( read it),and try to do/ live it.
(we had no power to do it)

Grace: The Devine influence upon our heart,and it's reflection in the life.

Grace , "the Good news,...that through Jesus ' sacrifice,He has made a Way for us,through His Spirit ,...who is Spirit /Truth/(Word)that He has written on our hearts.

(Grace to draw us to His Truth/Word,,...

Jn.1:17," For the law was given by Moses,but Grace and Truth came by Jesus Christ" ,.....("The Way") ,...Thank you for posting the Scripture,
just- in.

For Him alone,who is so worthy,

elizabeth

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text sermon:

There are many areas that the spirit of law or the spirit of grace can affect, but this booklet will address mostly how it affects relationships””relationships between husbands and wives, with one another, with children, and with God.

But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God. And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth. John bare witness of him, and cried, saying, This was he of whom I spake, He that cometh after me is preferred before me: for he was before me. And of his fullness have all we received, and grace for grace. For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ. No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him. (John 1:12-18)
Different Beginnings

As an introduction I would like us to consider the difference between the coming of the law, and the coming of grace and truth. The scripture here says the law came by Moses. Let us just for a moment lay a little ground work for the message, go back, and remember how the law came. Exodus chapter 20 is where we would drop in and read if we were going to read about when the law was given. But if you remember, God told Moses to gather the people together, and to sanctify them, because He would be appearing unto them the third day. The people were to gather outside and around the mount, and Moses was to go up into the mount. There God spoke to His people. They heard His words, they heard His laws. And we know the scene that is set there: Mount Sinai, a place of trembling. There was a place of thundering, there was a fire on that mountain, and the Bible says that the people exceedingly feared and quaked as they heard the words come forth from the mountain. Well, this is the way the law came by Moses. It had its effects on the people, there when they heard it and down through the centuries after they heard it. That law had its effect upon people.

The Bible says grace and truth came by Jesus Christ. What a different way grace and truth came! Here He comes, just like everybody else. He humbles Himself, fulfills all manner of righteousness, is baptized there of John in the river Jordan, and the Spirit of God descends upon Him. Then out into the wilderness He goes, He comes back, He’s seated there speaking to the people; and what is the ministry of grace and truth but to bind up the broken hearted, to minister grace to people, to proclaim liberty to the captives, and to loose those who are bound? This is the way grace and truth came. When John described it he said "We beheld his glory.” It was beautiful! It was the glory as of the only begotten of the Father. That’s the testimony we have of our Lord Jesus! He was full of grace and He was full of truth! What a beautiful combination those two make together, don’t they? Grace””that is the divine influence and power of the grace of God working on the heart of an individual. And truth””that is the divine revelation of the mind and will of God. We read in the scriptures that our Lord Jesus was full of both of them. He was full and running over of the grace of God, the divine power, the unction, the strength that was needed to live the way He needed to live. And He was also full and running over of the truth of the Word of God. That was our Lord Jesus. The Law came by Moses, but it came in a very different way than the coming of grace and truth.

As our Lord Jesus begins to manifest Himself and His ministry upon the earth, the people marvel at the gracious words which come out of His mouth. Words like these: Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest. Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls. (Matthew 11:28-30) This is very different than the law which came on Mt. Sinai; a totally different influence and effect.

Different Effects

There is a difference between the effects of the law and in the effects of grace upon our lives. There is a difference in the attitudes that flow out of a life which is controlled by the principles of law, as compared to those that flow out of a life which is controlled by the principles of grace. Maybe that would be a good way to divide the two of them in our minds. There are those who live by the principles of law, and there are those who live by principles of grace. The influence of the principles of law is very far from the influence of the principles of grace in someone’s life.

Do we begin again to commend ourselves? Or need we, as some others, epistles of commendation to you, or letters of commendation from you? Ye are our epistle written in our hearts, known and read of all men: Forasmuch as ye are manifestly declared to be the epistle of Christ ministered by us, written not with ink, but with the Spirit of the living God; not in tables of stone, but in fleshy tables of the heart. (2 Corinthians 3:1-3) Notice the difference there again, the effect of the principles of law, compared to the effect of the principles of grace. One is only written on a table of stone, or a piece of paper, or a book somewhere, but the other is written on the fleshly tables of the heart. This is a very big difference.

And such trust have we through Christ to God-ward: Not that we are sufficient of ourselves to think any thing as of ourselves; but our sufficiency is of God; Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life. (2 Corinthians 3:4-6) There again we see the difference between the principles of law and the principles of the spirit of grace: one kills, and the other gives life.

Different Glory

But if the ministration of death, written and engraven in stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not stedfastly behold the face of Moses for the glory of his countenance; which glory was to be done away: How shall not the ministration of the spirit be rather glorious? For if the ministration of condemnation be glory, much more doth the ministration of righteousness exceed in glory. ( 2 Corinthians 3:7-9) Now let me explain just a little bit what the word "ministration” means. It’s basically the same word as ministry: that which flows out””out of a life, out of a family, out of a congregation. We have a ministry: the ministration of your life, the ministration of your family, or the ministration of a church. Now if the ministration (that which flowed out) of condemnation be glory, how much more doth the ministration of righteousness exceed in glory! You see, the law was given as a ministration of condemnation, so that its effect and its influence would bring condemnation. It would bring death. It would bring someone to a place where they realize they cannot do it, and only then turn to Christ, where they can find the grace of God to do it. That little verse there is saying that the ministration which produces and fosters righteous living exceeds in glory.

For even that which was made glorious had no glory in this respect, by reason of the glory that excelleth. (2 Corinthians 3:10) The ministration of righteousness is so much more glorious than the ministration of condemnation. It just crowds it out of the way.

For if that which is done away was glorious, much more that which remaineth is glorious. Seeing then that we have such hope, we use great plainness of speech: And not as Moses, which put a veil over his face, that the children of Israel could not stedfastly look to the end of that which is abolished: But their minds were blinded: for until this day remaineth the same veil untaken away in the reading of the old testament; which veil is done away in Christ. But even unto this day, when Moses is read, the veil is upon their heart. Nevertheless when it shall turn to the Lord, the veil shall be taken away. Now the Lord is that Spirit: and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty. (2 Corinthians 3:11-17) Liberty means power to do the will of God. Let us remember this little phrase as we go through many different points: where the Spirit of the Lord is there is liberty, or power, or grace, or strength, to do the will of God. So, when we begin to ponder this whole matter of the effects of the principles of law compared to the effects of the principles of grace, surely we want to live on the grace side because where the Spirit of the Lord is there is the liberty, that is, power to do the will of God.

But we all, with open face beholding as in a glass the glory of the Lord, are changed into the same image from glory to glory, even as by the Spirit of the Lord. (2 Corinthians 3:18)

Three Relationships Affected by Law

The principles of law and the principles of grace have very different effects. If you are living by the principles of law, it will totally affect how you think about God. It will affect how you think about yourself. It will greatly affect how you relate to others.
1. With God

It will affect the way you think about God. If in your mind you’re thinking and relating in your Christian life after principles of law, that means you have to do something in order to please God. That will affect the way you look at God. Every one of us knows, if we stop and think about it, if you have to please God by the things you do, then if you don't do everything that you're supposed to do, you're not pleasing God, and thus you live under God's displeasure most of your life. To live under that sense of God's displeasure is not the will of God for a Christian! By the way, to live under the sense of God's displeasure is a false sense! It's a theology that we brought upon our own mind.

2. With Yourself

It will affect how you think about yourself. If you're living after the persuasion of the principles of law, then you have to perform, and if you don't perform, you're a failure, and if you're a failure, you'll begin to think like a failure, you'll feel like a failure, you'll make decisions like a failure, and you'll be a failure. That's the way it works.

The spirit of law and the spirit of grace are very different from each other. The one, if you carry it all the way to its end you'll have a Pharisee. And the other, if you carry it all the way to its end, you'll have a beautiful example of Jesus Christ upon this earth. Which one do we want? Do we want to be a Pharisee? Or do we want to be a beautiful example of Jesus Christ? The Pharisees were afraid of God. The Pharisees were proud of their attainments. They figured they were pleasing God by their attainments, and were proud of them. The Pharisees had very little influence on other people. On the other hand, our Lord Jesus Christ wasn't afraid of God, but He rested in the love of His Heavenly Father, throughout every day. He was filled with humility and meekness, rather than pride of attainment. And last of all, He was the most influential man that ever walked on the earth. Which one do we want?

3. With Others

It will greatly affect the way you relate to others. It will affect the way you raise your children. It will affect the way you relate to your spouse. It will affect the way you relate to your brothers and sisters in the Lord. It will also affect how you relate to a lost and dying world. We’ll see these as we go down several points of comparison between the spirit of law, and the spirit of grace. We’ll be able to see there is a great difference in the effects, or the influence, that we have on other people.

The Danger of Law

There is a danger of our hearts being established by law and not by grace. Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever. Be not carried about with divers and strange doctrines. For it is a good thing that the heart be established with grace; not with meats, which have not profited them that have been occupied therein. We have an altar, whereof they have no right to eat which serve the tabernacle. (Hebrews 13:8-10) Don't let your heart be established in legal codes and rules, but rather let it be established in grace, because Jesus Christ is the same yesterday, and today, and forever.

Fifteen Differences Between Law and Grace

Let us look at a few of these differences. I have fifteen of them, believe it or not. But I don’t plan to spend a long time on them, because I’d like you to get the principle of operating under law, and operating under grace. I want you to see the difference between the two.

1. The spirit of the law demands. It allows no excuse, it must be this way, and no other! You'll do this, and you have no choice, no excuse! This is the way it must be, this is the way you must do it. The spirit of grace encourages. It comes alongside and encourages you in the direction of holiness and righteousness. "Go this way! That's right! That’s good! Keep on going! Keep your heart open! Just keep going! This is the way to go.” One is the spirit of law; the other is the spirit of grace. They have a tremendous effect on how we relate to people, don’t they?

2. The law condemns. Condemnation is judgment. Condemnation is heavy. It brings the heart down low. Grace convicts, enlightens the heart. It is that still small voice, that sweet prompting of the Spirit of God inside of the heart of God's people. The gentle Spirit comes along side, and enlightens the heart: "You know, you shouldn’t have done that.”

Think of it, think of how the grace of God works in your life. You make a mistake, you say something out of sort, and it might be five minutes and all of a sudden you have that little quiet moment there by the kitchen sink or at your workbench and the grace of God says: "You shouldn't have done that.” But the spirit of law condemns: "That was wrong! You are wicked!” and all of those kind of things that go along with it.

If we are moving in the spirit of law, that’s going to have a very different effect than if we're moving in the spirit of grace. I believe that when we work with people, God would have us work like the Holy Spirit, not like the law. Rather than condemn, judge, and give feelings of failure and judgment, come along side and give a gentle encouragement as the gentle wooing of the Spirit of God.

3. The law brings bondage. The word bondage means just what is says: Bound. The spirit of law brings bondage, it binds, it hinders. If you're moving under the principals of law, you're probably failing in your Christian life. You probably try, but fail, and try, but fail, and try, but fail. But the spirit of grace brings liberty. Where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty. That is, power to do God's will. Liberty: Emancipation Proclamation. You are free! You can do what you want to do now, you can do the will of God, you can serve the Lord, and you can have victory over your sin in your life! The spirit of grace gives liberty, freedom, or emancipation to do the will of God. The other brings bondage.

4. The spirit of law is never good enough. Did you ever feel that way? It’s never good enough. Well, that’s the spirit of the law. You always fail under the spirit of law. The principal of law is always never good enough. You always fell short of it. You maybe got it here, but you lost it here. You gained a little here, but you lost down here. But the spirit of grace is always excited by each step that is taken. The spirit of grace is acceptance, encouragement, praise. Often heard: "If you want to raise your children right, give them about 9 doses of praise, to every 1 dose of correction; then another 9 doses of praise, and then 1 dose of correction.” Why? Because the spirit of grace is an encourager, it’s always excited by each step that is gained. When you take even a baby step in your Christian life, the grace of God is right there to say, "That's good! That's right! You're going the right way! Keep on going! Don't quit now! Keep on going!” But the spirit of law, when you take one step in the right direction is right there to say, "That's not good enough. You could've done better than that. Why didn't you do it this way? What about your motives?” The spirit of law and the spirit of grace are very different one from another.

5. The spirit of law: Curses. You’ve failed. Judgment is coming! There's a payment due for that which you did wrong! You failed! But the spirit of grace blesses, and shows the way to victory, even in total failure. The spirit of grace comes along and says, "There's a way out! Get up! God will help you! Keep on going!” Ah, but the spirit of the law comes along side of one who fell and curses, and brings judgment, and tries to make the load heavier on top of them. Big difference between the two.

6. The spirit of law is critical, always finding something wrong. It’s a little bit like "never good enough,” but I think it’s worthy of a point in itself. The spirit of law is critical. It’s always finding something wrong. But the spirit of grace gives the benefit of the doubt. The benefit of the doubt? I thought of these verses over in 1 Corinthians 13 where it’s giving a definition of love, and it says of love (among other things): "Love hopeth all things, and believeth all things.” Love gives the benefit of the doubt. Love believes in the other. Love hopes the best of the other. The spirit of grace gives the benefit of the doubt, rather than looking for something wrong, trying to find something to put a finger on it, and being critical. If the grace of God is stirring in the heart of an individual, the first response will be, "Oh, there must be some other explanation,” or "Surely, there must have been a reason for that.” Wouldn't you like to have the benefit of the doubt? So would your brother, so would your sister, so would your children, so would your wife or husband! Wouldn't you like to have the benefit of the doubt? The spirit of law is critical, always finding something wrong.

7. The spirit of law remembers sin again, and again, and again. Just like in the Old Testament, under the law, they would offer their sacrifice on the Day of Atonement, but a year later they'd have to come back again, and offer it again, and a year later they came back, and offered it again. The spirit of law remembers sin. But the spirit of grace forgets it. "What was that? I don't even remember! What was it you did? I didn’t even remember it.” The spirit of grace forgets! The spirit of law remembers it, reminds you, reminds you again, reminds you again, and again, and again, and again, and again. The grace of God just forgets it, buried in the deepest sea. Separated as far as the east is from the west, so are my sins separated from me.

8. The spirit of law exposes sin, and then leaves you there. That's all the law could ever do. But the spirit of grace comes along side, and forgives and covers, where we're willing to deal with it. The grace of God will come along side and encourage you to repent, to be forgiven, and to cover it, so that it is gone, so nobody else finds out about it.

9. The spirit of law is rejection. And the spirit of grace is acceptance. Law drives you away. It will drive you away from God, it will drive you away from people, and it will make people want to run away from you. They won't want to be around you. The spirit of law is rejection. But the spirit of grace is acceptance. It says: "Come! Come to God! Come the way you are! Come and be forgiven! Come and be cleansed!”

Probably the greatest motivation of the growth in our Christian life comes from the acceptance that we have of the Heavenly Father, is it not so? I don't know of anything that motivates me more to go on in my Christian life than to know that God accepts me right where I am. I don't mean God accepts sin! But God accepts me right where I am. If I'm clear in my heart, God accepts me. Sure, maybe 6 months from now, He'll begin to show me something else I need to deal with, and I'll see it. But all those 6 months, God was loving me! He was accepting me! He was blessing me! He was encouraging me! That very acceptance caused me to have my heart open, so God could minister to me about another need in my life. The spirit of law makes you want to run away from God, but the spirit of grace makes you want to run to God.

10. The spirit of the law tends to be exclusivist. The spirit of grace is free to all! Hallelujah. "Red, brown, yellow, black and white, they're all precious in His sight!” But not so with law. The principals of law, and those who live after the principals of law, they tend toward being a sect, or they tend toward being an individualist. "This is how I see it, this is the way it’s going to be, and I don’t care if I have to be by myself, this is the way we’re going to do it.” It’s not that way with the spirit of grace. Rather it says: "Others, Lord, yes others. Let this my motto be.” Quite a difference between the two of those isn’t it?

11. The spirit of law has no mercy. When you have failed under the spirit of law, there is no mercy. But under the spirit of grace: there’s complete mercy. Release! Forgiveness! Encouragement! Acceptance! Total mercy through the blood of Jesus Christ. Total mercy compared to no mercy, no forgiveness. The spirit of law and the spirit of grace are very different.

12. Under the spirit of law the highest goal is performance. Under the spirit of grace the highest goal is a relationship. The one: performance. The other: relationship. There is a big difference between the two of those! If we are living our lives to perform, and we’re basing our acceptance on performance, when we don’t measure up we don’t feel God’s acceptance. Or if we base other’s acceptance on performance, when they don’t measure up, we don’t accept them. Because the highest goal is how you perform. Not so with the spirit of grace. With the spirit of grace the highest goal is relationship. O Lord, help us to see that one.

As I pondered this message, I had to think of many of the plain churches, and how they are so much on the performance side. If you come among them and you don’t look quite right, or you say "kids” instead of "children,” or a few things like that, there is this silent, mysterious wall that comes up. It comes up because of the theology of performance, and you didn’t perform right so things don’t go right. But let the grace of God come over our hearts as individuals, and as a church with relationship as the highest goal. Relationship with the God of Heaven, relationship with God’s people, and relationship with a lost and dying world out there!

There is a big difference between the spirit of law and the spirit of grace if you come and visit a church like that! The one you’ll go away wondering what happened, not feeling accepted. But the other you’ll go away saying, "They loved me! They accepted me just the way I am! I want to go back again! There’s something magnetic about those people!” I tell you what it is: it’s magnetic because it’s like God. That’s exactly the way God is with every one of us. God wants a relationship with us! That’s number one! He’ll walk with us when we have long hair! And He’ll walk with us before we get rid of our cigarettes! He’ll walk with us when we’re failing in this area. He’ll walk with us when we’re not as meek and quiet as we ought to be! And He’ll walk with us when we’re not as modest as we ought to be! Because number one on God’s list is a relationship!

We have to be the same way, because it’s godliness to be like God. Amen? So it’s godly to accept somebody right where they are. It’s godly to come up and put your arm around some fellow who has long hair who’s born again for only 2 weeks. It’s godly to come up and put your arm around him and bless him, and encourage him, and accept him, and love him. It’s God-like to do that. In the law, the highest goal is performance. We all come up with our own levels of performance, "You had better measure up with my level of performance...”

I had to think this one comes pretty close to home when you begin to ponder our children. I think we need to have some performance in our minds, I am not against that. But let number one be relationship. I don’t know anything that motivates a child to do what Mama and Papa say more than a sweet relationship with Mama and Papa! Nothing! But oh, the burden of a little child whose father and mother move under the principals of law, and sets up the rules of performance, and withdraw their acceptance, and their blessing, and their encouragement when the performance isn’t what it ought to be. Poor child. That child’s view of God will be very mixed up.

13. The spirit of law tends to details. The spirit of grace tends to flexibility. What do I mean by that? Well, I guess a good way to put it is: The Letter of the Law vs. The Spirit of the Law. You know letter of the law. We can follow the Pharisees, and study Jewish history, and it doesn’t take us long to find out what the spirit of law does if you leave it by its self. It will make up 5,000 Sabbath rules over the course of about 200-300 years, of things you should do and shouldn’t do. It’ll make a thick book to read so you can learn how to behave on the Sabbath! But in the spirit of grace is the principal, and in principal is flexibility. There is a big difference between the two of those. Law tends to details. You’ll do it this way, down to the detail. You’ll wear these, you’ll part your hair here, you’ll wear this kind of covering, you’ll wear black shoes and only black shoes. The principals of law tend toward details, but the spirit of grace, or the principals of grace, tends toward flexibility. There is flexibility on how it’s lived out.

14. The spirit of law tends to be negative. The spirit of grace tends to be positive. If you’re one who struggles with being negative I would encourage you to take a study of the Gospels and study the Pharisees. Do a study on the Pharisees in light of this whole matter of negative, doubtful, unbelief. You’ll find an answer to your need. Because the principal of law tends toward the negative, that’s just the way it is. Because you can never measure up, and there’s no faith where there’s law. They can’t dwell together! Where there’s a spirit of grace, there’s this positive, faith-filled, encouraged, up-lifted look toward the God of Heaven, trusting Him in the circumstances of life.

15. And last of all, we said it already but I think its worth making it a point. The spirit of law is like a Pharisee. The spirit of grace is like Jesus. Consider this: the Law creates rebellion, stirs up the flesh, and drains spiritual life. I don’t know how many times a brother or a sister who has been born again””I mean one of those fresh new births, when they’re about a month old in the faith””go back to their old church, sit in the service, listen to the message, and when they get out they feel like they need to go to church because all the life has been drained out of them. That is what law does. Read it there in Romans 7. It’s supposed to! God gave it so that it would create rebellion, so it would stir up the flesh, so that sin would be revived, so we could see our evil condition. But brothers and sisters, if we’re in the grace of God, if we’re washed in the Blood of Jesus, if we’re no longer walking after the flesh but after the Spirit, we should have no part with any of that which the law does, but rather the spirit of grace working in our heart to produce a holy life. I know that we’d all have to agree, that the end result of grace is always higher than the end result of law””always! It will always be higher; it will always reach higher than law.

Which Spirit are You Living In?

These issues came up over and over during the revival. In some cases we had to conclude, and give very clear counsel: "You are living under the principles of law, rather than the principals of grace!” In following after the principles of grace there’s liberty, there’s power, there’s strength, there’s overcoming ability. But in going after the principals of law, it’s just not there. You don’t have it. It won’t be there. It can’t be there! It is contrary to God’s law for it to be there! Are you living after principles of law, or principles of grace?

Think with me just a moment here. What kind of person do you want to be? Do you want to be one who encourages, one who gently reproves, one out of whose life flows liberty, grace, and power? One who's always excited when somebody else takes a little step forward? One who blesses those around you? One who gives the benefit of the doubt? One who’s willing to forget sin? One who encourages people to be forgiven, and repent, and have their sins completely covered? One who accepts and blesses? One who’s free and open, and reaches out to all? One who has complete mercy toward others around them? One who’s flexible? One who’s highest goal is relationship? One who’s positive and filled with faith? One who is like Jesus?

Or, would you rather be one who’s always demanding? Condemning? Heaping failure on others? Bringing bondage upon them? One who is never satisfied? One who’s never good enough? One who breathes curses, judgment, and payment due? One who’s critical? One who remembers sin again, and again, and again? One who exposes sin, but then just leaves them set? One who has rejection coming forth out of his life? One who tends toward the exclusivist rather than an openness to those around them? One who has no mercy? One who’s highest goal is performance? One who tends to the details, and they’re very important to you and if the details aren't right you get frustrated inside? "I’m not free. I come to church, lose my joy, my blessing, because the details are really more important to me than the relationships.” One who’s negative? One who’s like a Pharisee? You see, the difference between the two of these is very big, and they have to affect our relationships.

I realized, as I meditated on this message, that most likely nobody here is going to fit into one category or the other. But let us be open before the Lord, and allow the Spirit of God to reveal to us how we are operating. How do we operate with our children? How do we operate with our brothers and sisters? What kind of eye do we have when we look around us? How do we relate to a lost and dying world? You know there are those who look around them and say, "They don’t want it, they’re gospel hardened, it’s too high for them, and nobody wants to pay the price anymore.” I tell you, that is the spirit of law. They have theologized it so bad, that they haven’t done anything for decades.

The Remedy for Living Under the Law

Which one do we want to be? What is the answer to this problem? Well, there is an answer. If you say, "Oh, that’s me! That’s exactly how I find myself! Those are the very struggles that I have in my heart!” There is an answer, hallelujah! Here's what to do:

1. Acknowledge where you’re at. It is the first step to victory every time. Just acknowledge, "That’s where I’m at!”

2. Repent. Turn away from it. See it for what it is, and turn away from it!

3. Establish your heart in grace. Yes, the same old answer! Walk in the grace of God, be filled with the Spirit, move in the Spirit of God, and walk after the dictates of the Spirit of God rather than the dictates of your flesh. Put off religion, and put on Christ! Put off the doing, and put on the being. You’ll find yourself beginning to think differently, respond differently, talk differently, and share differently. You’ll be a little grace of God going amidst the congregation. You’ll be a little grace of God in your home, guiding your children onward and forward, encouraging them, blessing them. You’ll be a little grace of God moving around in the congregation, walking out in the world around you. And rather than seeing someone and wanting to heap judgment and condemnation on them, you’ll be one who comes along side and says, "You know, there’s a way out of this! There’s a way out! There's an answer for your problem! I know what it is! Listen to me!”

How The Law Affects Child Training

When I think of this whole matter of being established with principles of law rather than principles of grace, I have to think about children. I can not get away from it; it haunts me. I guess the reason is I get a lot of letters from around the country from people who’ve listened to "The Godly Home” tapes, but they’ve approached it from a law point of view, rather than a grace point of view. And they see, "Well the answer to this whole thing is to make a bunch of rules for my children. The answer to this whole matter of my children is to spank the child every time the child is wrong, and the answer to this whole thing is for me to get stricter on my children.” Somehow as they listened to all those tapes, they missed the grace that was in there, and they only came up with the law of the matter. And then they try it and it doesn’t work, and then they write me letters. They’re totally frustrated, and they say things like, "I don’t know what to do. I spank my children and spank my children, and spank my children, and they’re only getting worse!”

I’ve spent many hours pondering those letters, trying to figure out what is going wrong, and I believe that I have found the answer. They’re approaching the whole matter of raising their children from the principle of law, rather than the principle of grace. Remember, the highest goal of the law is performance, and the highest goal of grace is relationship. They have not built a relationship with those children. They’ve only laid down some rules and told them, "Now Brother Denny says this in his tape and you’re going to do this, and you’re going to do this, and if you don’t, you’re going to get a spanking!” That’s not grace. Grace builds a relationship, grace moves in love, grace moves with encouragement, and blessing, and praise. Yes, sometimes grace comes in and corrects and disciplines, but then it moves right back into the area of relationship, and blessing, and encouragement. May God enlighten our hearts both with our relationships to our children, and with the relationships we have with one another, and with the world around us.

Remember, law and grace affect the way you view God, the way view yourself, and the way you view people around you.

https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/articles/index.php?view=article&aid=23603

ArthurRosh wrote:
What is the difference between the old covenant vs. the new covenant?

God bless,
Lisa

Also, listen to anything by Art Katz because he was an Old Testament Jew whose Messiah found him and led him to the New Covenant!
https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/mydownloads/viewcat.php?cid=173

Here is Zac Poonen
https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/mydownloads/viewcat.php?cid=157&min=380&orderby=titleA&show=20
Scroll down to (The Ministry Of The Spirit), 3 sermons.

Enjoy!!!

Hi Arthur,

As many have mentioned already, this is an excellent question! I would like to highly recommend Bob Hoekstra's teachings that are available on SermonIndex at the below link: https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/mydownloads/viewcat.php?op=&cid=525

Bob spent most of his ministry in this vein of teaching and preaching, and his simple and profound understanding of the two covenants is life changing for the hearts that are willing to hear.

I was able to spend a little bit of time with this humble man of God, and I can assure you everything he preaches is fully radiated in his life! Bob went home to be with the Lord last year after an intense bout with physical infirmity. I think the concensus that most people who knew him in his suffering was that they were amazed at the grace that poured from his life in the midst of suffering. This is truly evidenced by the life he had walking by the Spirit in the New Covenant of grace.

I hope all are blessed by his teachings that he left behind.

In the beloved,
Kevin

The Law given to Moses is described in this manner by Paul...

2 Corinthians 3:
9 For if the ministry of condemnation had glory, the ministry of righteousness exceeds much more in glory.

And,

Romans 3:

19 Now we know that whatever the law says, it says to those who are under the law, that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God. 20 Therefore by the deeds of the law no flesh will be justified in His sight, for by the law is the knowledge of sin.

So the Law of Moses condemns all. All are without excuse.

Paul then says:

21 But now the righteousness of God apart from the law is revealed, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets, 22 even the righteousness of God, through faith in Jesus Christ, to all and on all[h] who believe. For there is no difference; 23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24 being justified freely by His grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus, 25 whom God set forth as a propitiation by His blood, through faith, to demonstrate His righteousness, because in His forbearance God had passed over the sins that were previously committed, 26 to demonstrate at the present time His righteousness, that He might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus.

God requires this of all men...

Matthew 22:
37 Jesus said to him, "‘You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your mind.’[d] 38 This is the first and great commandment. 39 And the second is like it: ‘You shall love your neighbor as yourself.’[e] 40 On these two commandments hang all the Law and the Prophets.”

So then only through the ministry of our High Priest Jesus Christ are we enabled to satisfy God's requirement of us. If we only try to obey the law according to our flesh we only find condemnation. However, if we submit to the Spirit's work Christ will give to us what is His. The result is that we will learn to love God as Christ loves the Father.

by HezWelling,

"difference?

nay, God's continuing Plan for all, both Jew and Gentile.....One Glorious Majestic God, One Merciful Messiah, One Sweet Comforter...eternal, forever, unfolding.

Thanks HezWelling!

Your post bears witness with the Spirit of Messiah. Christ Jesus Himself used no NT Scripture either.

You've successfully expounded the Gospel Truth from the Scriptures. You've correctly stated what has been missing here,"...God's continuing Plan for all..."

Thank you again for clarifying with such simplicity.

For I am jealous over you, with a godly jealousy: for I have espoused you to a husband as a chaste virgin, whom I would present to the Messiah. But I fear, lest, as the serpent beguiled Eve by his craftiness, so your minds should be corrupted from simplicity towards the Messiah. 2 Cor. 11:2,3

The "difference" is based on who reacts to the call of the Holy Spirit directed by the Word of God. From Genesis through Revelation, the Father provides for the Son a Bride, the Holy Remnant. The Son, the sacrifice for our transgressions, is the remnant's High Priest according to the order of Melchizedec.

"the call of the Holy Spirit directed by the Word of God."

well said. I read it three times before it finally sunk in.

And who reacts to the call. What is important in regard to the question of what has changed, as some don't agree with reacting at all.

I just want to say something to the first sentence where the Holy Spirit is directed by the Word of God, and that is: There is a spirit centered gospel that goes directly against that principle, it is so popular at the present age that nobody looks closely anymore to detect whats wrong with that. I only can see it myself after I'm really troubled reading how so many people pick "a piece of a scripture" ignoring most surrounding words and meaning to fit and support what they already believe to be true in spirit. And never check the Spirit vs a spirit in light of The Word. That's how christian mysticism separates itself and is no longer subject to the Word of God.

But how can you even say that to the person afflicted with the "positive thinking" that everything that has the appearance of 'being spiritual' is connected with the Holy Spirit, as he has no way to even understand what you're talking about?

by PaulWest on 2013/10/24 22:26:24

In a nutshell:

OC - "Thou shalt; thou shalt not"
NC - "I will"

This is exactly the difference, between exodus 20 (ot)and hebews 8(nt). Also all the blessings of OT are external like wealth, prosperity etc. NT is internal, like christlikeness.

Brother HezWelling sees the Messiah in the Law and the Prophets. Likewise Brother Job also sees the Messiah...

Job 19:23
"Oh, that my words were written!
Oh, that they were inscribed in a book!

Job 19:24
That they were engraved on a rock
With an iron pen and lead, forever!

Job 19:25
For I know that my Redeemer lives,
And He shall stand at last on the earth;

Job 19:26
And after my skin is destroyed, this I know,
That in my flesh I shall see God,

How did the Word of God communicate with Job?

'to ascertain the Mind of God, is akin to taking the tip of one's pinky finger, and skimming the surface of the ocean for a length of 12 inches.'

so in mercy and grace...

Jhn 1:1
¶
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

Jhn 1:2
The same was in the beginning with God.

Jhn 1:3
All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

Jhn 1:4
In him was life; and the life was the light of men.

The Light of all men, enabled man to "skim the surface of the ocean for a length of 12 inches."

Such a wonderful Thread and I greatly appreciate it.

I cannot help but consider that there is nothing new under the Son. With men coming to salvation in all ages by His Grace and never by law but rather by faith. To pit one testament and one covanent against each other is like pitting the begining of a good book to the end of it. Though we can jump to its last pages, what a great loss that comes from missing the beauty of what comes before it. A poor analogy at best but what glory Is to be discovered as our Christ experience builds within all the pages He has spoken.

Yes, a wonderful thread!

Raised in something of a fundamentalist milieu, I learned early on that the law was Old Testament and that we were no longer under law. In my mind I had visions of God "failing on the first try" and finally getting it together with New Testament and the introduction of Jesus.

But my personal failures and the nagging guilt of sin eventually assured me that indeed God had not really changed- the law still worked to condemn me when I walked in disobedience. Just as Jesus said, "I did not come to abolish the law but to fulfill it."

A point of enlightenment for me was when, after my original baptism in the Spirit and the repentance that so magnified that event, I read and pondered the 119th Psalm. What kind of a spirit did the author have, to compose so lovingly his devotion to God through his devotion to the law?

I concluded that it was the Spirit of Christ moving within, putting the "music" of that psalm to paper. Where is that passage that mentions how the prophets made inquiries as to the things to come that stirred their hearts?

Indeed, even as the Lamb was slain before the foundation of the world, the Son of God has always been in the story, and in the hearts of those who respond to God.

"Oh Jerusalem that stones the prophets and those who were sent to you! How often I wanted to gather you as a hen gathers her chicks beneath her wings- but you would not!"

Hmmmmm. Jesus is the God of the Old Testament. The same yesterday, today, and forever!

Gen 12:1
Now the LORD had said to Abram:

"Get out of your country,
From your family
And from your father’s house,
To a land that I will show you.

Gen 12:2
I will make you a great nation;
I will bless you
And make your name great;
And you shall be a blessing.

Gen 12:3
I will bless those who bless you,
And I will curse him who curses you;
And in you all the families of the earth shall be blessed.”

Gen 12:4
So Abram departed as the LORD had spoken to him,

The LORD, through the Holy Spirit, commanded Abram to leave his home for a land unknown to him. The LORD would "show" him in time where to go. Coupled with this command, the Lord also gives a promise to Abram. Look for the content of this promise. Then look to the Scriptures to see how the LORD over the process of time and circumstances proves to Abraham that He is faithful.

In Genesis 12:4 we are told that Abram did "as the LORD had spoken to him."

Was Abram declared righteous after Abram obeyed in Genesis 12:4?

For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness. Romans 4:3

What righteousness?

Romans 4:13  For the promise, that he should be the heir of the world, was not to Abraham, or to his seed, through the law, but through the righteousness of faith.

the righteousness of faith

Romans 5:1  Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ: By whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God. And not only so, but we glory in tribulations also: knowing that tribulation worketh patience; And patience, experience; and experience, hope: And hope maketh not ashamed; because the love of God is shed abroad in our hearts by the Holy Ghost which is given unto us.

Romans 8:10  And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.

Galatians 5:5  For we through the Spirit wait for the hope of righteousness by faith.

Ephesians 5:9  (For the fruit of the Spirit is in all goodness and righteousness and truth;)

To pit one testament and one covanent against each other is like pitting the begining of a good book to the end of it. Though we can jump to its last pages, what a great loss that comes from missing the beauty of what comes before it.

There is nothing wrong in comparing one Covenant with another. The writer of Hebrews did that when he called New Covenant a better covenant (comparative speech).

Hebrews 8-6:- But now He has obtained a more excellent ministry, by as much as He is also the mediator of a better covenant, which has been enacted on better promises.

May be the writer of Hebrews lack wisdom? Clearly New covenant is better compared to old Covenant. Hebrews 8-13 says that the Old Covenant is now obsolete. Which means God still honors this covenant but it is not preferred to be observed. In programming language when we come up with a new version of an existing service, we mark the existing version obsolete. Anyone calling the existing service will still work but it is not preferred to be used for a newly written program. Anytime we can stop the support of such obsolete service.

Also if someone meditates seriously on Hebrews 8 they will understand that new Covenant is not lawlessness. Here God writes his laws into our heart (verse 10). Who knows if it is less than or greater than 611. But one thing that we know is these laws are way higher standard than the laws written on stones. Here even Anger is considered as murder, lustful eyes are considered as adultery. But they are lighter and not a burden because God himself works with us to keep them. That is why I said Amen to the post of moderator when he said OT is 'Thou shall' (you do it alone) and NT is 'I will' ( I will work with you). In New Covenant, God will work with us to make the burden lighter but not the standard lighter. The standard is raised way higher in New covenant.

Brother Zac Poonen has this illustration to differentiate life under law and life under grace. Under Law is like a women who is married to a husband who is very strict about the services that she should do to him. He wants breakfast sharp at 8 AM, dinner at this time etc. He never helps her with anything and always accuses her of her shortcomings. But when this women dies (after born again) and gets married to grace, it is like living with a husband who again is very strict but he is willing to sit and work with her to prepare the breakfast, lunch etc. This way her burden now is light and she is able to achieve a higher standard as a wife.

If a man living under Old Covenant (Jew for instance) has better standard than me in terms of Holiness or family relationship or Godliness etc then my Christianity is worth big Zero.

by a-servant wrote:

"For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness. Romans 4:3"

Yes, it is through God's work to establish faith in Him, that we are declared righteous. But in the testimony given to us in Scripture, was Abram declared righteous when he obeyed God's command to leave his country? Another way to ask this, according to the process of time, how many years later did God establish His covenant with Abram?

Sree writes:

"Also if someone meditates seriously on Hebrews 8 they will understand that new Covenant is not lawlessness. Here God writes his laws into our heart (verse 10)."

How does God, according to Scripture, write His laws into our heart?

"how many years later did God establish His covenant with Abram?"

Is that of vital importance? What has time to do with it...

Another way to ask this: Did God tell us when He himself first made this decision to aprove of Abraham's response?

If so, tell us where and when.

The other question is even more interesting:

"How does God, according to Scripture, write His laws into our heart?"

That's a very good question. I'll go one futher: And how would you see the relationship of the
Holy Spirit that interacts [in what way?] with His laws that are written into our heart?

God may do the transplant, but we have to lie down on the operating table...

Ezekiel 18:31 ...get yourselves a new heart and a new spirit! For why should you die O house of Israel?

Another thing to consider:

The Old Covenant was made between Israel and God. Not between someone like myself, who happens ethnically to be a non-Jew, and Yahweh. So this means even if there were no New Covenant, I am not bound by the Sabbath laws, the levitical tithe, etc. Paul never in his epistles alluded to such with the gentile believers of the churches in Greece. This, of course, is why in the New Testament you will not read the of the 10% ceremonial tithe, Sabbath observance and dietery laws being imposed upon gentiles or any of the 600-plus commands governing sacrifices and grain offerings and the like which were given to Moses and the Hebrew priests on the mountain.

They who were being adopted into the family of God found themselves instead situated under a much better covenant, a "New" Covenant, of which Christ Jesus - and not Moses - was the New Mediator, and Who rendered both Jew and Gentile co-inheritors of the promise. The written commands of the inferior Old Covenant were now obsolete (having served its purpose as a "shadow" schoolteacher, keeping the immature children in check through spoonfed laws and regulations and shalts and shalt nots), and which was absolutely fulfilled through Christ's sinless obedience and Final Sacrifice, thus unlocking the old temple door (i.e. veil) and rendering the former covenantal way legally invalid for entrance.

Enter now the "New" way. God sends the Holy Spirit into the hearts of His children to empower them, to "cause" them to walk in His statues in a living way. This is accomplished through grace; a reality which was totally foreign to even the most stalwart, law-abiding Jew. No matter how faithfully he tithed under the obsolete covenant, no matter how many goats and lambs he slaughtered, no matter how many necks of turledoves he wrung he could never be set free from the power of sin. He could only experience forgiveness and the bandaid covering of the penalty via the blood of beasts. This is the old and inferior, Christ-fulfilled and subsequently-obsolete Covenant. The inferior covenant that could require your dear child be put to death for gathering sticks on a Saturday, or your daughter to be burnt alive for losing her virginity prior to her wedding night.

These "punishments" were inaugurated to keep the unruly schoolchildren (with disobedience in their nature) in check through fear, not unlike the government today threatening very lengthy prison sentences for child molesters and money counterfeitors. If you're caught smuggling drugs in China, they shoot you - this is exactly the same principle we find in the Old Covenant, only in Ancient Israel punishment was theocratically inforced, whereas in China it is communistically. But in both situations, neither the communistic law of China, nor the Mosaic law in Israel had the power to intrinsically "cause" a change in a man or woman's nature to not smuggle drugs or fornicate, not because of fear of reprisal, but out of love for the lawgiver.

This is the essence of the New Covenant. God Himself reanimates the spirit (dead under the supression of the Old Covenant, with the will to sin simply chained by the dread of reciprocal punishment) and creates a "New Man" who desires to do the will of God, even if there were no punishment for fornication or drug smuggling. The man or woman under the New Covenant naturally desires to walk and live and have all their being in the perfect fulfillment of God's pleasure.

if you only KNEW how wrong you are

How many "stalwart" Jews do you know?

That said, I didn't know you had such a problem with the word "stalwart". I had no idea it held negative connotations when applied religiously - in fact, I assumed it meant the opposite: firm, resolute, morally strong. Please correct me if I am wrong brother.

that you, ingrafted vine so arrogantly dismiss

unruly schoolchildren (with disobedience in their nature)

Thank you dear brother.

a-servant writes

"Is that of vital importance? What has time to do with it..."

The exact number of years is not important, but the understanding that the Scriptures gives us a clear sequence of events in the testimony of Abraham. Paul uses Abraham's testimony as the foundation for his teaching of the difference between following the law and following the Spirit.

God first commands Abram with a promise in Genesis 12. The Scriptures teach us that God declared Abraham righteous in....

Gen 15:6
And he believed in the LORD, and He accounted it to him for righteousness.

Paul points to this moment in time in the life of Abraham as the point where God's grace had enabled Abraham to believe His promise. And then we see that God makes a covenant with Abraham.

I thought by asking for the number of years one might begin to search the Scripture, and then recognize the grace extended to Abram before he was declared righteous by God.

just-in writes:

"He gives us a transplant. Takes out the stony heart and gives us His heart, His Spirit. "Christ in you, the hope of glory". "

Yes indeed God truly does transform one's heart as you stated above. According to Scripture, what are the details of this "transplant"?

PaulWest wrote:

"The Old Covenant was made between Israel and God. Not between someone like myself, who happens ethnically to be a non-Jew, and Yahweh. So this means even if there were no New Covenant, I am not bound by the Sabbath laws, the levitical tithe, etc. Paul never in his epistles alluded to such with the gentile believers of the churches in Greece. This, of course, is why in the New Testament you will not read the of the 10% ceremonial tithe, Sabbath observance and dietery laws being imposed upon gentiles or any of the 600-plus commands governing sacrifices and grain offerings and the like which were given to Moses and the Hebrew priests on the mountain. "

This is an important point. For Scripture pointed to an event in the Law and the Prophets that the Gentile would also be added into the kingdom of God. Scripture points to a time where the Holy One of Israel would also minister to the Gentile. And Paul, in his ministry, first to the Jew and then to the Gentile, preaches about the grace that is extended to both Jew and Gentile. And furthermore, those who continue to live according to the "ministry of condemnation" have no part in the kingdom of God.

Yet we have this testimony of the people of Jacob prior to the Law given to Moses...

Eze 20:5
"Say to them, ‘Thus says the Lord GOD: "On the day when I chose Israel and raised My hand in an oath to the descendants of the house of Jacob, and made Myself known to them in the land of Egypt, I raised My hand in an oath to them, saying, ‘I am the LORD your God.’

Eze 20:6
"On that day I raised My hand in an oath to them, to bring them out of the land of Egypt into a land that I had searched out for them, ‘flowing with milk and honey,’fn the glory of all lands.

Eze 20:7
"Then I said to them, ‘Each of you, throw away the abominations which are before his eyes, and do not defile yourselves with the idols of Egypt. I am the LORD your God.’

Eze 20:8
"But they rebelled against Me and would not obey Me. They did not all cast away the abominations which were before their eyes, nor did they forsake the idols of Egypt. Then I said, ‘I will pour out My fury on them and fulfill My anger against them in the midst of the land of Egypt.’

Eze 20:9
"But I acted for My name’s sake, that it should not be profaned before the Gentiles among whom they were, in whose sight I had made Myself known to them, to bring them out of the land of Egypt.

Eze 20:10
"Therefore I made them go out of the land of Egypt and brought them into the wilderness.

Eze 20:11
"And I gave them My statutes and showed them My judgments, ‘which, if a man does, he shall live by them.’fn

The LORD made Himself known to the people. But not all responded to His call through the Holy Spirit. And just as you have stated the Mosaic Law was established to serve as a tutor for the people.

What is everyones opinion of this verse ?

Matthew 11:11
Verily I say unto you, Among them that are born of women there hath not risen a greater than John the Baptist: notwithstanding he that is least in the kingdom of heaven is greater than he.

Of which salvation the prophets have enquired and searched diligently, who prophesied of the grace that should come unto you:

Searching what, or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was in them did signify, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow.

Unto whom it was revealed, that not unto themselves, but unto us they did minister the things, which are now reported unto you by them that have preached the gospel unto you with the Holy Ghost sent down from heaven; which things the angels desire to look into.

Verily I say unto you, Among them that are born of women there hath not risen a greater than John the Baptist: notwithstanding he that is least in the kingdom of heaven is greater than he.

Paul the Apostle considered himself the "least" of all the saints in the New Covenant. John the Baptist was considered the "greatest" of all those under the Old Covenant. In the final moments of their lives, both spent time in prison, and both were at last beheaded. But there is one important difference between them: John the Baptist, the "greatest" under the Old Covenent, began to question if Jesus Christ were really the Messiah, whereas Paul, the "least" under the New, wrote what we know today as the "Prison Epistles", letters of correspondance bursting at the seams with inexpressible joy, hope, faith, encouragement! Paul was under grace; John the Baptist was under the law.

Even the greatest of all the prophets didn't have what lowly Paul had. Sadly, this is but a common trait with many of the luminaries of the Old Testament, great men of God who were confined to the "schoolmaster" as heaven and earth waited for the inauguration of the Better Covenant of grace through Jesus Christ. Look, for instance, at the cowardice failings of Abraham, in allowing his wife to be taken into a pagan king's harem to save his own life; or, Isaac, who was more interested in eating Esau's venison than bowing to God's will concerning the prophetic birthright conferral upon his younger son Jacob - and the shameful list goes on and on as we move through the patriarchs, prophets, judges and kings under the Old Covenant. We can't blame them: they were all under the Old Covenant law. Men going after money, women and power and murdering their adversaries while serving the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob with burnt sacrifices. And those who had the moral fortitude to eschew those vices, men like Jeremiah, Elijah and John the Baptist, would instead succumb to doubt and fear when trouble hit.

But we don't see any of this wavering faith when we come to New Covenant guys like Paul and Peter and James and Timothy and John. They weren't perfect, but you don't hear about Peter committing adultery with a sister in Antioch, or John beginning to question if Jesus were really the Christ while he was isolated on Patmos. These were men of a different spiritual calibre, men to whom the grace of Jesus Christ was given. As Jesus Himself quantified, even the least under the New was greater than the greatest under the Old.

I really enjoy these types of discussions. I think this is such a precious topic to talk about and study.

Paul

Quote "....and then recognize the grace extended to Abram before he was declared righteous by God."

ah ok I understand, yes that is true.

Quote "difference"?....no. its a Continuum, the Unfolding Story of God."

yes, it's a matter of perspective. And that perspective is formed when you first come in contact with the Bible, wether you start reading it on page one, or start towards the end of it at the page that says: NT, and consider that the beginning. What is not the actual beginning of God dealing with His people however, and these final chapters cannot stand alone.

investigate the contents of the new heart.

Are there any laws written on that heart? Or is that a meaningless question "because the Holy Spirit regulates all that in ways we cannot understand - meaning "undefined ways" and there would be no actual governing law regulating how the Spirit acts. Is our God a god of chaos and changes His mind frequently and according to the situation? Or has He a history and foundation in dealing with people, especially His people.

Personally I found part to that answer when looking at what Paul says that keeps people out of heaven. These are indicators that laws have been broken. Spiritual laws some people believe do not exist, and neither could be a deciding factor in the New Covenant. If that would be so, Paul would be a false prophet and teacher, something I cannot affirm.

Paul the Apostle considered himself the "least" of all the saints in the New Covenant. John the Baptist was considered the "greatest" of all those under the Old Covenant. In the final moments of their lives, both spent time in prison, and both were at last beheaded. But there is one important difference between them: John the Baptist, the "greatest" under the Old Covenent, began to question if Jesus Christ were really the Messiah, whereas Paul, the "least" under the New, wrote what we know today as the "Prison Epistles", letters of correspondance bursting at the seams with inexpressible joy, hope, faith, encouragement! Paul was under grace; John the Baptist was under the law.

This is the answer I would have given as well. Good to see believers in similar spirit. Grace is not just our sins being forgiven, it is help in the time of need (Hebrews 4). Paul got that help in prison and hence he was able to write those epistles. But John did not have it.

But to the one more is given, more is expected!!!

I was not raised as a Christian in a Church like most of the believers here. I was raised as a idol worshiper. But when I gave my life to Christ, I started reading the New Testament first, I was very much gripped by the Gospel, the teachings of Jesus. It was not until I had a good understanding of NT did I turn to OT. When I started reading OT, I always read it with the understanding that I had of NT. This clearly showed me that OT was just a shadow. I could clearly see the Spirit of God behind the laws of OT. I could clearly see men failing God when put under temptation. I know clearly I was reading a lower standard of life. But the problem with many of those here who are brought up as Christians from Childhood is they are exposed to OT first, especially to the stories of David, Moses, etc in their Sunday School. They do this to keep the kids interested in Bible, nothing wrong here. So such believers when they Grow they fail to have an opportunity like how I have, to read OT with the spirit and wisdom of NT. A great blessing I see in my erroneous Childhood!!!

Sree writes;

But when I gave my life to Christ, I started reading the New Testament first, I was very much gripped by the Gospel, the teachings of Jesus. It was not until I had a good understanding of NT did I turn to OT."

I too spent the first 40 years of life without submitting my life to the LORD. I too fed on only the NT for the first 3 years. And then, attending a bible study on eschotology?...I stood up and said, "all we need is the NT." After I sat down, an old man stood and said,"I live in the OT, because the mysteries of God are revealed there."

And now I see as that old man saw.

A general thought...

I often read and hear of believer's sentiments concerning the history of Israel as being one of failure. Very little is ever said of the times of revival experienced in various generations in the books of the Law and Prophets.

Yet today, especially this ministry promotes the understanding and the need for a revival in this generation. Just like the testimony in the book Judges, generations after Christ's sacrifice are both found wanting and others rejoicing. Western Europe, the site of the Reformation, is now largely wanting and void of the grace of God. I have traveled to New England, and there too, I have witnessed the spirit of falsehood and deception. New Age and Scientology occupy the pews where saints once worshiped.

Why do so many reject the evidence of God pouring out His grace on His people?

Very little is ever said of the times of revival experienced in various generations in the books of the Law and Prophets.

Life under the Old Covenant was up and down. One moment a prophet was calling down fire on a crowd of false priests; the next moment he is running for his life from an angry woman. This again is an illustration of the "mountain top" experience so typical with those who have not understood the grace of the New Covenant. They experience a revival where God's presence is manifest strongly, and then bank on it for as long as they can. As long as they are being prospered with His presence, and the called-down "fire" of the Holy Spirit, they remain bold and full of faith.

But bring in a Jezabel at their workplace or a Delilah on the internet or a Goliath in their marraige and things begin to fall apart. The glory begins to fade, and like Moses, they have to veil themselves so as to not show others that the power of God is diminishing. They need another revival, and so God uses the enemy (an invading spiritual troop, another conquering nation) to once again precipitate repentance through defeat and misery. This is Old Covenant 101: Fly high for a time, slowly cool down, backslide into defeat, turn back to God, fly high once again. Repeat cycle.

Now, I am not knocking this, because this has been my experience for far too long. I do not want to live in the Old Testament anymore. I would rather live under the New Covenant, where I am always lead in triumph through Christ, and where I can go from glory to glory instead of from glory to backsliding to outright spiritual depression and back to glory. If we are honest with ourselves we will admit this has been our experience, in spite of all the New Covenant promises which reflect something much different.

PaulWest writes:

Life under the Old Covenant was up and down. One moment a prophet was calling down fire on a crowd of false priests; the next moment he is running for his life from an angry woman. This again is an illustration of the "mountain top" experience so typical with those who have not understood the grace of the New Covenant."

I do not see this in the way you have applied section of Scripture...

The Holy Spirit called upon Elijah to cleanse deceit. And we know that persecution always follows those who are filled with the Holy Spirit. Likewise, Paul's testimony is similar is it not?

Why has the New England states, once on fire for God fallen into deception?

Ephesians 4:8
Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men.

What is everyones view of this Scripture ?

The Holy Spirit called upon Elijah to cleanse deceit. And we know that persecution always follows those who are filled with the Holy Spirit. Likewise, Paul's testimony is similar is it not?

Why has the New England states, once on fire for God fallen into deception?

Paul,

We are given this testimony of Elijah according to your comment of an event in his life...

1Ki 19:1
And Ahab told Jezebel all that Elijah had done, also how he had executed all the prophets with the sword.

1Ki 19:2
Then Jezebel sent a messenger to Elijah, saying, "So let the gods do to me, and more also, if I do not make your life as the life of one of them by tomorrow about this time.”

1Ki 19:3
And when he saw that, he arose and ran for his life, and went to Beersheba, which belongs to Judah, and left his servant there.

1Ki 19:4
But he himself went a day’s journey into the wilderness, and came and sat down under a broom tree. And he prayed that he might die, and said, "It is enough! Now, LORD, take my life, for I am no better than my fathers!”

Yes, Elijah faltered and according to verse 4 above he called out to God in shame for what he did.

1Ki 19:5
Then as he lay and slept under a broom tree, suddenly an angelfn touched him, and said to him, "Arise and eat.”

1Ki 19:6
Then he looked, and there by his head was a cake baked on coals, and a jar of water. So he ate and drank, and lay down again.

1Ki 19:7
And the angelfn of the LORD came back the second time, and touched him, and said, "Arise and eat, because the journey is too great for you.”

This testimony of Elijah reminds me of another...

Luk 22:39
Coming out, He went to the Mount of Olives, as He was accustomed, and His disciples also followed Him.

Luk 22:40
When He came to the place, He said to them, "Pray that you may not enter into temptation.”

Luk 22:41
And He was withdrawn from them about a stone’s throw, and He knelt down and prayed,

Luk 22:42
saying, "Father, if it is Your will, take this cup away from Me; nevertheless not My will, but Yours, be done.”

Luk 22:43
Then an angel appeared to Him from heaven, strengthening Him.

Luk 22:44
And being in agony, He prayed more earnestly. Then His sweat became like great drops of blood falling down to the ground.fn

Both Jesus and Elijah were confronted with imminent danger and both in their moment of weakness were strengthened by an angel sent from God.

Now concerning Paul, I do not recall any Scripture which compares to the imminent threat similar to Elijah's. And Scripture says nothing of Paul's last moments. But of Scripture we find that Elijah's last moments on earth were glorious....

2Ki 2:11
Then it happened, as they continued on and talked, that suddenly a chariot of fire appeared with horses of fire, and separated the two of them; and Elijah went up by a whirlwind into heaven.

PaulWest wrote:

'I don't know what this has to do with the covenant discussion we are having. If anything, it shows just how wretched trying to live under the Old Testament law is. The New Covenant of Jesus Christ deals with individuals, not colonies or worldly theocratic governments. The "City on a Hill" that Winthrop envisioned never came to pass. Spectral-evidenced trials, public floggings, Sabbath observance by the sword, sectarian discrimination and the like are not exactly my understanding of a deceptionless society. What was New England like before she fell into deception?'

According to Scripture we are living in the "time of the gentile." And as you point out, the New Covenant is far better than the Old Covenant, and the time of the Old Covenant has ended. I hear many teachers of the Scriptures point to the failures of OT Israel. They always point to those who backslid under the Law of Moses. And then I hear these same teachers expound upon the victorious Church of the New Covenant. Yet today in many places where the "victorious church' once flourished have now decayed into idol worship and deception.

According to the evidence I see today, there is no difference between the generation of today and that of Elijah's time.

Would you agree?

Both Jesus and Elijah were confronted with imminent danger and both in their moment of weakness were strengthened by an angel sent from God.

Elijah ran from a woman who put a hit out on him. If Paul hid himself away in a cave and grumbled each time a pagan priest or angry Judiazer put a contract on his head, he probably wouldn't have any time to plant churches and preach the Word! But we know Paul from his own admission that he experienced "fears within". The difference between him and Elijah in dealing with the fear was that under the New Covenant the grace of God could actually set him free from its dominion. He didn't even have to wait for an angel; the Holy Spirit indwelt him with immediate resolve.

You bring up very good points brother.

According to the evidence I see today, there is no difference between the generation of today and that of Elijah's time.

just-in wrote:

Unfortunately, yes! I would agree. I am reminded by something Milton Green has said, "The Church is a dwelling place of demons".

Would you agree?

Satan and his offspring are always lurking around to see whom they may devour.
Since the fall of man...

Gen 3:15
And I will put enmity
Between you and the woman,
And between your seed and her Seed;
He shall bruise your head,
And you shall bruise His heel.”

God announced the beginning of this spiritual battle.

PaulWest wrote:

"He had to fulfill Old Testament scripture and suffer being forsaken and cry out to God as was written. All this is pre-Calvary. The Apostles at the same time were hiding away, fearing for their lives like Elijah, still under the law. The temple veil had not been rent yet and the Holy Spirit hadn't been sent to fill their hearts with victorious grace."

So then do the teachings of Jesus, especially the parables, apply to the Old Covenant or the New Covenant?

I pray you watch brother Len on Elijah, before you go judging a prophet of God.

Your friend, Paul

So then do the teachings of Jesus, especially the parables, apply to the Old Covenant or the New Covenant?

Dear brother, I think we are slightly talking past each other. Can you agree that Paul and Peter had something greater than Elijah and all the rest of the OT prophets and kings had? Note, I am not saying that the OT luminaries were failures at all; I deeply respect these heroic men. But we must see that a man considered an even greater prophet than Elijah, John the Baptist, came to have doubts in Christ while in prison. I am not faulting him for this, or casting stones at him as some seem to think - I'm simply stating a scriptural fact. These Old Covenant men lacked the power of New Covenant grace, and because of this simple fact, sin still had dominion over them (according to Romans 6:14).

This means that doubt and fear for their lives had dominion over some (like Elijah, Abraham, etc.); lust had dominion over others (like King David, Samson, etc.); the love of money took dominion over guys who started off good like Solomon, Gehazi, Balaam, etc. Now I fully realize these things can still take dominion over us under the New Covenant - hence all the warnings in NT scripture. I believe there are many Christians genuinely born again who have not understood their New Covenant birthright of grace and their ability to partake in Christ's divine nature, and as such they live legalistic and habitually defeated lives - in fact, far, far lower than than of the prophets under the Mosaic law who did not have the grace of Jesus Christ. This is tragic, wouldn't you agree?

The difference I am simply proposing is that sin "does not have to" take dominion over a man under the New Covenant, as it did with the men who were still under the schoolmaster and therefore the "shadow" of Reality via the law. This why you don't read of Peter or Timothy slipping into adultery and murder, or Paul hiding in a cave from Felix, or John having doubts about Jesus while stranded on Patmos, etc. They had grace of the Holy Spirit to overcome!

Neil, instead of attacking me at a personal level, please show me from scripture where I am wrong. I honestly don't understand what I have done to make you so angry.

you tell me, "lets just leave this alone"....and then write a post I find not only OFF Biblically.....but totally divisive and wrong-hearted.

and you're a "moderator"?

reading one of the moderator's of the only Revival Site I love, drag Old Testament giants of the Faith thru the mud of his own twisted imaginations

PaulWest wrote;

Dear brother, I think we are slightly talking past each other. Can you agree that Paul and Peter had something greater than Elijah and all the rest of the OT prophets and kings had?

There are two aspects to the question you pose. In order to explain as I see it in Scripture I must first address God's plan in reference to time.

The first precept is explain by Paul...

Act 17:26
"And He has made from one bloodfn every nation of men to dwell on all the face of the earth, and has determined their preappointed times and the boundaries of their dwellings,

Act 17:27
"so that they should seek the Lord, in the hope that they might grope for Him and find Him, though He is not far from each one of us;

God has established preappointed times and boundaries for all men. Within God's plan, we know from Scripture that there are generations in which God withhold's His grace and there are generations in which He pours out His grace.

Through your posts in this thread you have mentioned Elijah, John the Baptist, Paul and Peter. You have sought to differentiate the ministries of Elijah and John from that of Paul and the Apostles.

Scripture truly does support your thoughts, but not in the way most believe it to be. What I mean by this is that according to God's plan, in a specific generation, there are two "types" of ministries. To bring clarity to this distinction, let us consider the first "type" the one who prepares the way.

2Ki 2:15
Now when the sons of the prophets who were from Jericho saw him, they said, "The spirit of Elijah rests on Elisha.” And they came to meet him, and bowed to the ground before him.

God pass on to Elisha the ministry of Elijah. Note the "spirit of Elijah"....

Luk 1:17
"He will also go before Him in the spirit and power of Elijah, ‘to turn the hearts of the fathers to the children,'fn and the disobedient to the wisdom of the just, to make ready a people prepared for the Lord.”

Now we see that the angel informs Zacharias of the "nature" of his son's ministry. Again note..."in the spirit and power of Elijah."

Mat 17:10
And His disciples asked Him, saying, "Why then do the scribes say that Elijah must come first?”

Mat 17:11
Jesus answered and said to them, "Indeed, Elijah is coming firstfn and will restore all things.

and

Mal 4:1
"For behold, the day is coming,
Burning like an oven,
And all the proud, yes, all who do wickedly will be stubble.
And the day which is coming shall burn them up,”
Says the LORD of hosts,
"That will leave them neither root nor branch.

Mal 4:2
But to you who fear My name
The Sun of Righteousness shall arise
With healing in His wings;
And you shall go out
And grow fat like stall-fed calves.

Mal 4:3
You shall trample the wicked,
For they shall be ashes under the soles of your feet
On the day that I do this,”
Says the LORD of hosts.

Mal 4:4
"Remember the Law of Moses, My servant,
Which I commanded him in Horeb for all Israel,
With the statutes and judgments.

Mal 4:5
Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet
Before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the LORD.

Mal 4:6
And he will turn
The hearts of the fathers to the children,
And the hearts of the children to their fathers,
Lest I come and strike the earth with a curse.”

This prophesy is yet to be fulfilled...

In God's preappointed times and boundaries, He assigns men to in different generations to do the work of Elijah in spirit and power...

I will stop for now with one more Scripture which will help one meditate on this precept I have shared...

Act 19:3
And he said to them, "Into what then were you baptized?” So they said, "Into John’s baptism.”

Act 19:4
Then Paul said, "John indeed baptized with a baptism of repentance, saying to the people that they should believe on Him who would come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus.”

Do you recognize the ministry of Elijah?

Paulwest,

"So then do the teachings of Jesus, especially the parables, apply to the Old Covenant or the New Covenant? "

I have never punched a moderator. Did you mean didache? He spoke a parable in the Natural towards the Old Covanant, and in the Spirit towards the New.

I have never punched a moderator. Did you mean didache? He spoke a parable in the Natural towards the Old Covanant, and in the Spirit towards the New.

But to answer your question, and to clarify:

I meant what I wrote: didactic. It means for the purpose of teaching someone something. We were talking about Jesus suffering in Gethsamane. Rookie brought up a great point: Christ's struggling and angelic comfort in the garden was not unlike Elijah's struggling and angelic comfort as he hid from Jezebel. To say Elijah was defeated, it then must be said that Christ was defeated too.

I pointed out the different reasons for the struggle; namely, Jesus was about to take on the sins of the world and be forsaken by His Father for the first time since the creation of the universe. His disciples were also hiding out, full of fear and doubt. This was all before Calvary and the advent of the Holy Spirit. So Rookie brought up another great point: Do we then apply the parables to the Old or New Covenant. They apply spiritually to the New, of course. They can't be rightfully understood through Old Covenant eyes. Christ's sufferings in the garden were not "didactic" in a New Covenant sense, but were rather the fulfillment of OT scripture. They are not New Covenantally didactic because none of us will have to take on the sins of the world and be forsaken by God. I honestly don't know why people are getting so angry with me.

God bless you all. This will be my last post in this thread.

To continue on with the precept of God's plan and the preappointed times and boundaries men find themselves in...

The ministry in the power and spirit of Elijah is described this way...

Luk 3:3
And he went into all the region around the Jordan, preaching a baptism of repentance for the remission of sins,

Luk 3:4
as it is written in the book of the words of Isaiah the prophet, saying:

"The voice of one crying in the wilderness:
‘Prepare the way of the LORD;
Make His paths straight.

Luk 3:5
Every valley shall be filled
And every mountain and hill brought low;
The crooked places shall be made straight
And the rough ways smooth;

Luk 3:6
And all flesh shall see the salvation of God.’”‰”fn

The LORD uses men to call the individual to repent and to turn away from the deceptions of Satan and to call on the Savior for salvation. The contents of this work is described in the following verse...

Jer 1:9
Then the LORD put forth His hand and touched my mouth, and the LORD said to me:

"Behold, I have put My words in your mouth.

Jer 1:10
See, I have this day set you over the nations and over the kingdoms,
To root out and to pull down,
To destroy and to throw down,
To build and to plant.”

The power and spirit of an Elijah's ministry is to "root out and pull down" those who exalt themselves through the works of Satan. All that consists of false teachings, the itching ears, believing evil is good, the promotion of the lie are rooted out or revealed to those who were deceived. The men who have been given this stewardship find themselves living in generations where the sheep have been scattered, where the shepherds have grown fat. They are called in a time where God has allowed desolation to take hold in hope that some might call out to Him. The ministry in the power and spirit of Elijah is the "voice of one calling out in the wilderness."

The lie is revealed, the stronghold torn down, then and only then is it time "To build and to plant". Prepare the way of the Lord, make His paths straight. The work of Elijah is to remove the lie and point to the Word of God.

After this work of men preappointed to a time of desolation, and the baptism of John comes the work of Isaiah, of Paul, of the LORD Himself.

Jhn 1:12
But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, to those who believe in His name:

Jhn 1:13
who were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

The baptism of the Holy Spirit.

RE: //"So then do the teachings of Jesus, especially the parables, apply to the Old Covenant or the New Covenant? "//

my thoughts are :

If we turn the teachings of Jesus into law, We are not embracing the New.

The parables are an excelant example of what alot of the Old Testament is for the Christian and that is allegory that often relates and is usefull for us right now.

"If we turn the teachings of Jesus into law, We are not embracing the New."

Jesus is our salvation, not the "New"

you just found a way to say teachings of Jesus are interesting at times, but have no binding validity for Christians.

And why call ye me, Lord, Lord, and do not the things which I say? Luke 6:46

I have been following this thread with interest, but time has prevented me from posting.

God's original covenant with Abraham was not a covenant of law. Abraham walked on that covenant through faith, and through believing God, he was declared righteous. One of Isaac's sins was chosen by God to be the father of a nation through which the promise given to Abraham would come to pass. So Israel was chosen by His to be the people through which the promised Messiah was to come. "and in thy seed shall all nations of the earth be blessed". We know this promise seed was Jesus Christ. This covenant had a priesthood of an order that was not prescribed under the law.

But before the Messiah would come, there would be another covenant, we might say an intervening covenant, made with Israel. It was a covenant of law. Scripture tells us a few things about this covenant. It was good and holy (obviously since it was given by God). It was temporary (until the promised seed should come). It was given because of transgressions (it served to restrain sin). It was a shadow, a picture of what was to come. (Christ was witnessed by the law and the prophets). It restrained the people just as a school master. (schoolmasters or tutor in the sense of the tutor a child of mobility would be continually governed and trained by until he reached adulthood.)

But we also learn of this covenant of law that it was weak through the flesh (it was all carnal ordinances that man tried to keep through his own carnal effort). It could not result in a person being justified before God as its ministry was to condemn its, to reveal to us the unrighteousness that was in us. It (meaning quite specifically the ten commandments) was a ministration of death written and graven in stone.

But the prophets, David, Jeremiah, etc. were told that there was coming a better was coming. There was coming a time when God would enact a new covenant with Israel. In this covenant, Good would write His laws on their heart, not on stone tablets. That God would no longer impute sin unto them. That the sacrifice of the lamb of God would do the work that animal sacrifice could only picture.
It is not a covenant with carnal ordinances, but a covenant of spiritual life through rebirth by the Spirit. It is a covenant of the grave of God in pardoning your transgressions. And we enter, not by working hard to keep ordinances that are impossible for our flesh to keep, but by receiving the sacrifice that was freely given and taking part in that sacrifice through dying to our old man so that we might receive newness of life.

And the covenant was not limited to Israel. But God temporarily cut off the natural branch so that the wild might be grafted in. But the glory when, I think soon, the natural branches are once again grafted into their own vine again.

I think we must be careful that we define covenant on the same way. When we say old covenant, we are not talking about the first half of our Bible and everything contained therein, but about the specific covenant of law established at Sinai.

There is a huge danger in taking the message of the new covenant and trying to somehow "fulfill its requirements" in our flesh as though it were a law. This is the definition of legalism, and it will work the same death in us as did the old covenant. The new covenant cannot be kept by the fl esh, but rather received in the spirit. It is then that the law of God, the governing power of the holy spirit, will transform our pretty man as we walk out obedience to that which had already become reality in our spirit. It is the grace of God that teaches its holiness.

Brother Travis wrote:

God's original covenant with Abraham was not a covenant of law. Abraham walked on that covenant through faith, and through believing God, he was declared righteous.

Yes and Amen. I could just highlight your entire post and put an Amen to that as well.

Mat 13:15
For the hearts of this people have grown dull.
Their ears are hard of hearing,
And their eyes they have closed,
Lest they should see with their eyes and hear with their ears,
Lest they should understand with their hearts and turn,
So that I shouldfn heal them.'fn

This also is true today, not only the Jew but the gentile as well.

just-in quoted;

Heb 11:39 And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise:
Heb 11:40 God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect.

I missed this earlier in the thread and was reading in Isaiah this morning....

Isa 26:1
In that day this song will be sung in the land of Judah:

"We have a strong city;
God will appoint salvation for walls and bulwarks.

Isa 26:2
Open the gates,
That the righteous nation which keeps the truth may enter in.

Isa 26:3
You will keep him in perfect peace,
Whose mind is stayed on You,
Because he trusts in You.

Isa 26:4
Trust in the LORD forever,
For in YAH, the LORD, is everlasting strength.fn

Isa 26:5
For He brings down those who dwell on high,
The lofty city;
He lays it low,
He lays it low to the ground,
He brings it down to the dust.

Isa 26:6
The foot shall tread it down””
The feet of the poor
And the steps of the needy.”

Isa 26:7
The way of the just is uprightness;
O Most Upright,
You weigh the path of the just.

Isa 26:8
Yes, in the way of Your judgments,
O LORD, we have waited for You;
The desire of our soul is for Your name
And for the remembrance of You.

Isa 26:9
With my soul I have desired You in the night,
Yes, by my spirit within me I will seek You early;
For when Your judgments are in the earth,
The inhabitants of the world will learn righteousness.

Isa 26:10
Let grace be shown to the wicked,
Yet he will not learn righteousness;
In the land of uprightness he will deal unjustly,
And will not behold the majesty of the LORD.

Isa 26:11
LORD, when Your hand is lifted up, they will not see.
But they will see and be ashamed
For their envy of people;
Yes, the fire of Your enemies shall devour them.

Isa 26:12
LORD, You will establish peace for us,
For You have also done all our works in us.

Isa 26:13
O LORD our God, masters besides You
Have had dominion over us;
But by You only we make mention of Your name.

Isa 26:14
They are dead, they will not live;
They are deceased, they will not rise.
Therefore You have punished and destroyed them,
And made all their memory to perish.

Isa 26:15
You have increased the nation, O LORD,
You have increased the nation;
You are glorified;
You have expanded all the borders of the land.

Isa 26:16
LORD, in trouble they have visited You,
They poured out a prayer when Your chastening was upon them.

Isa 26:17
As a woman with child
Is in pain and cries out in her pangs,
When she draws near the time of her delivery,
So have we been in Your sight, O LORD.

Isa 26:18
We have been with child, we have been in pain;
We have, as it were, brought forth wind;
We have not accomplished any deliverance in the earth,
Nor have the inhabitants of the world fallen.

Isa 26:19
Your dead shall live;
Together with my dead bodyfn they shall arise.
Awake and sing, you who dwell in dust;
For your dew is like the dew of herbs,
And the earth shall cast out the dead.

Isa 26:20
Come, my people, enter your chambers,
And shut your doors behind you;
Hide yourself, as it were, for a little moment,
Until the indignation is past.

Isa 26:21
For behold, the LORD comes out of His place
To punish the inhabitants of the earth for their iniquity;
The earth will also disclose her blood,
And will no more cover her slain.

This Scripture is commentary, an explanation of what the writer of Hebrews was expounding upon in verse 39 and 40.

again as commentary on Hebrews 11:39-40 and also in support of what Brother Travis wrote:

Job 19:23
"Oh, that my words were written!
Oh, that they were inscribed in a book!

Job 19:24
That they were engraved on a rock
With an iron pen and lead, forever!

Job 19:25
For I know that my Redeemer lives,
And He shall stand at last on the earth;

Job 19:26
And after my skin is destroyed, this I know,
That in my flesh I shall see God,

Job 19:27
Whom I shall see for myself,
And my eyes shall behold, and not another.
How my heart yearns within me!

Job 19:28
If you should say, ‘How shall we persecute him?’””
Since the root of the matter is found in me,

This man lived before the generation of Moses in Egypt. And he also looks for a time in the future where the promise of God to be made prefect is complete.

The 1000 year reign of Christ and the resurrection of the dead in Christ.

I too have been following this thread with interest””for the difference between the Old Covenant and the New Covenant is a very important consideration””and I was sorry to see Paul West bow out. You have said some good and vital things, Paul. Also appreciated what Twayneb just posted.

I’d like to point out two things.

First (which others have already brought up), it’s clear from the New Testament Scriptures that the Old Covenant is no longer in effect. God has brought in a New Covenant. In fact the Old Covenant, as Twayneb just said, was only meant to be temporary in the first place, "till the Seed should come to whom the promises were made” (Gal. 3.19). That seed is Christ, and those in Christ” (Gal. 3.29). (See also Heb. 8.13.)

The important thing to remember is that the New Covenant was first made "with the house of Israel and the house of Judah” (Jer. 31.31). (These two "houses” are incorporated into one house, the "house of Israel,” in verse 33.) So it is wrong thinking to say that the Old Covenant is for people of Jewish lineage, and the New Covenant is for Gentiles, and that both covenants are still in effect.

God did away with the Old Covenant and gave His people””the Jews””a New Covenant. The New Covenant is for Jews””for "the house of Israel.” In fact this is the only covenant extant for them or for anyone else at this time. The mystery of God, which in other ages was not made known to the sons of men, is that in the days when God brought the New Covenant into being He planned to open the door for the Gentiles to come into this covenant (Eph. Ch. 3). I am glad.

The second thing I’d like to point out is this. The original question asks the difference between the Old Covenant and the New Covenant. According to the apostle Paul, the difference is one between bondage and liberty. Paul shows that the Old Covenant is a covenant that "gendereth to bondage” (Gal. 4.24). In other words, those who were under this covenant were not free””they were in bondage both to the law of Moses and the law of sin and death, which the law of Moses could not deliver them from.

Paul uses an allegory to describe "the two covenants.” He likens the Old Covenant, the Sinai covenant, to Hagar the bondwoman who brought forth Ishmael, and the New Covenant to Sarah the freewoman, who brought forth Isaac the son of promise (Gal 4. 21-31).

Hagar, Paul says, represents the Old Covenant. "For this Agar is mount Sinai in Arabia, and answereth to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children” (Gal. 4.25). Paul contrasts the Sinai covenant with "Jerusalem which is above,” which, he says, "is free, which is the mother of us all”””that is, the mother of all whether Jew or Gentile who are in new-covenant relationship with God through faith in the Lord Jesus Christ. (This is the "mount” unto which those under the New Covenant have come””not Sinai, but "mount Zion... the heavenly Jerusalem, Heb. 12.22.)

This is all so wonderful. It is sad when contention arises over these things. It can only be because of a failure to see what God has done in the New Covenant. There is cause for great rejoicing for us all, for "the Jew first, and also for the Gentile.”

Good post, Just-in.

ADisciple writes:

Hagar, Paul says, represents the Old Covenant. "For this Agar is mount Sinai in Arabia, and answereth to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children” (Gal. 4.25). Paul contrasts the Sinai covenant with "Jerusalem which is above,” which, he says, "is free, which is the mother of us all”””that is, the mother of all whether Jew or Gentile who are in new-covenant relationship with God through faith in the Lord Jesus Christ. (This is the "mount” unto which those under the New Covenant have come””not Sinai, but "mount Zion... the heavenly Jerusalem, Heb. 12.22.)

There is more to this analogy than what you have stated thus far... what is the difference between the promise made to Abraham by God and what happened with Hagar?

just-in writes:

The basis of our relationship with God
What does it mean to "turn to the Lord”? It means to see Jesus as the basis of our relationship with God. It means seeing our identity in him, not in the Law of Moses. Christ becomes central. We obey his law, the law of Christ (1 Cor. 9:21). When we put him first in our identity, he will help us see the covenantal change more clearly.

In Isaiah we find this answer... Isa 30:9

That this is a rebellious people,
Lying children,
Children who will not hear the law of the LORD;

Isa 30:10
Who say to the seers, "Do not see,”
And to the prophets, "Do not prophesy to us right things;
Speak to us smooth things, prophesy deceits.

Isa 30:11
Get out of the way,
Turn aside from the path,
Cause the Holy One of Israel
To cease from before us.”

Who is the Holy One of Israel?

Hi a-servant ,

I hope this better helps you to understand what I was implying

ProudPapa wrote : "If we turn the teachings of Jesus into law, We are not embracing the New."

a-servant responded : ///Jesus is our salvation, not the "New" ///

Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life.

The Shed Blood of Jesus is the new testament.

Salvation is in the Shed Blood of Jesus which is the new testament.

a-servant wrote ///you just found a way to say teachings of Jesus are interesting at times, but have no binding validity for Christians.///

What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.

a-servant wrote : ////And why call ye me, Lord, Lord, and do not the things which I say? Luke 6:46////

This is my commandment, That ye love one another, as I have loved you.

Hebrews 13:8  Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever.

He is either Lord in our lifes, or he is not. He is the person on the throne that will judge us, it is not the theology that spoke of him and his blood sacrifice, it's the person.

"Salvation is in the Shed Blood of Jesus which is the new testament."

That's a technical definition, theology of sorts, it is only salvation to you if you come to Christ, the Bible says:

Hebrews 5:9  And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;

You cannot have salvation without the person Of Jesus, that would be a trying to get in the door by other means of a "salvation outside the foundation of Christ".

Luke 6:46  And why call ye me, Lord, Lord, and do not the things which I say? 47  Whosoever cometh to me, and heareth my sayings, and doeth them, I will shew you to whom he is like: 48  He is like a man which built an house, and digged deep, and laid the foundation on a rock: and when the flood arose, the stream beat vehemently upon that house, and could not shake it: for it was founded upon a rock. 9  But he that heareth, and doeth not, is like a man that without a foundation built an house upon the earth; against which the stream did beat vehemently, and immediately it fell; and the ruin of that house was great.

This is not "old covenant" this is foundational thruth of Christianity.

John 15:26  But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me:

The [REAL] Holy Spirit testifies of Jesus, he does not render him obsolete, nor replaces or surpases him now or in the future. You do not have one without the other. In Luke 6:46 Jesus warns the ones that call him by his name in adoration, but refuse to come to him. They refuse to enter through the strait gate, because He is not their Lord, they just call him Lord.

"Who is the Holy One of Israel?"

For thy Maker is thine husband; the LORD of hosts is his name; and thy Redeemer the Holy One of Israel; The God of the whole earth shall he be called. Isaiah 54:5  

It's Jesus that writes his laws on our hearts. Once you come to Him.

in opposition to the lawless one, that imparts demonic lawless spirits into humans. Convincing the deceived mind that this is true freedom and that this spirt would be the holy spirit.

How did God through Isaiah identify these spirits?

Isaiah 8:20  To the law and to the testimony: if they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them.

they promise us light, but have no light to give, they cannot overcome their basic nature which is based on rebellion, expressed by only two things: They hate God's law, and His testimony. That's the key identifier. And that's the main difference between the antichrist spirit and the Holy Spirit. We have to examine and discern the source, or will be deceived by an outside appearance of light that is based on rebellion and will take us to hell. As a spirit of rebellion cannot be saved.

a-servant wrote:

"Who is the Holy One of Israel?"

'For thy Maker is thine husband; the LORD of hosts is his name; and thy Redeemer the Holy One of Israel; The God of the whole earth shall he be called. Isaiah 54:5

It's Jesus that writes his laws on our hearts. Once you come to Him."

Yes the Scriptures in Isaiah identify Jesus as Spiritual force gathering those who would hear and see.

You wrote:

"they promise us light, but have no light to give, they cannot overcome their basic nature which is based on rebellion, expressed by only two things: They hate God's law, and His testimony. That's the key identifier. And that's the main difference between the antichrist spirit and the Holy Spirit. We have to examine and discern the source, or will be deceived by an outside appearance of light that is based on rebellion and will take us to hell. As a spirit of rebellion cannot be saved."

In Isaiah 8 God declares that these people who you are writing of above "refused the waters of Shiloah that flow softly" and instead chose to "rejoice in Rezin and in Remalliah's son." So as you said they rejected God and chose to be Satan's offspring. Just like Cain and Abel, just another generation.

Isa 8:7
Now therefore, behold, the Lord brings up over them
The waters of the River,fn strong and mighty””
The king of Assyria and all his glory;
He will go up over all his channels
And go over all his banks.

Isa 8:8
He will pass through Judah,
He will overflow and pass over,
He will reach up to the neck;
And the stretching out of his wings
Will fill the breadth of Your land, O Immanuel.fn

The God of the Old Testament who destroys is also the God of the New Testament who also saves, His name is Immanuel. Everywhere one goes today, the preachers teach that Jesus of the New Testament is a God of love, and for lack of understanding, teach that Jesus is the God of judgement in the Old Testament. As you said according to Isaiah 8:20, there is no light in them.

I acknowledge any sinful and wrong hearted words written to my beloved brother Paul (West)....for which I beg his forgiveness.....i'm so terribly sorry.

Paul

This while conversation is profoundly important, deserving of respectful sharing of ideas and perspectives. Speaking for myself, I'll admit there are two basic but conflicting narratives of the cross at work in my own theology.

The first is that the death and ressurection of Christ is another chapter in the bibles unfolding revelation to mankind. In this view, the Gospel is a fullfillment of all the promises given to the prophets, and the Church is the fulfillment of Judaism. Paul's conversion involved having his errant theology corrected, and his identity as a Jew more fully realized. Now everythg promised in the Old Testament has become fulfilled.

The second is that the cross is an absolute rupture with everything that has come before it in the bible. In this view, the Gospel seems irreconcilable with the religious, political, and social patterns of the Old Testament. Paul's conversion required that his theology and identity as a Jew was shattered. Here the Gospels only kinship to the Old Testament is that it resonates with the prophets whose entire ministry was rooted in a critique of Israel's faithless failings, as well as faith in a coming Messiah.

I still have not found a way to dismiss either of these narritives completely, or two bring them together in my own mind, though I do think they can harmonize at times.

I'm only sharing this to offer that it is hard for me to be harsh towards my brothers and sisters as they wrestle with similar conflicts among one another that I have in myself.

Blessings,

Mike

Going back to PaulWest question...
Dear brother, I think we are slightly talking past each other. Can you agree that Paul and Peter had something greater than Elijah and all the rest of the OT prophets and kings had?

Continuing on the first precept that God preappoints men in chosen generations for a particular work of God in that generation...

The power and spirit of the ministry of Elijah has it's work centered in this verse...

Jhn 16:8
"And when He has come, He will convict the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:

The work of Elijah is to convict the world of sin. How else would one know that he is in need of a Savior. But the work of the Spirit is not complete is it? What must follow is the imparting of righteousness to those who hear and do according to what they hear. So this is the distinction that divides the ministry of Elijah and that of Isaiah, Paul, and still to come the 1000 year reign of Christ.

In Isaiah the Scriptures teach that Christ was preforming this ministry prior to the Babylonian captivity...

Isa 48:16
"Come near to Me, hear this:
I have not spoken in secret from the beginning;
From the time that it was, I was there.
And now the Lord GOD and His Spirit
Havefn sent Me.”

Isa 48:17
Thus says the LORD, your Redeemer,
The Holy One of Israel:
"I am the LORD your God,
Who teaches you to profit,
Who leads you by the way you should go.

Isa 48:18
Oh, that you had heeded My commandments!
Then your peace would have been like a river,
And your righteousness like the waves of the sea.

Jesus says to His disciples...

Jhn 14:21
"He who has My commandments and keeps them, it is he who loves Me. And he who loves Me will be loved by My Father, and I will love him and manifest Myself to him.”

Why is the ministry which leads one to Christ more important than the ministry of Elijah?

Quote "He who has My commandments and keeps them, it is he who loves Me. And he who loves Me will be loved by My Father, and I will love him and manifest Myself to him.”

The greatest "mirage of the mind" when talking about OT vs NT covenants is that conviction, that once a written word of God described as 'law' changes from letter to spirit it vanishes.

Before, we would know its content. Now, we don't. Every attempt to locate its substance would be a return to the letter. We don't want that, we are living in the spirit now.

God's laws didn't simply change location by writing them on the heart, they changed their very substance and meanings. What was specific content before, might be totally different content now, or no content at all. We cannot really tell for sure, as 'the spirit nature of it' obscures everything. Written documents you can evaluate with your mind, spiritual things you have to evaluate spirtually.

What reminds me of being in the hippy movement at the age of 16, going to Haight Ashbury and experiencing very spiritual things. It took me a few years and stomache upsetting research of its Laurel Canyon origin to realize that this spirituality was actually sensuality. Based on the feelings you wouldn't be able to tell the difference. Based on the popular theology of the last 50 years and its most popular teachers you wouldn't be able to tell the difference. It's much easier to get "slain in the spirit" and just think of that as final answer and reality, simply because it works. As does hypnosis and mesmerism by the way. And that's why personal experience verifies nothing, the Word of God does.

That is why The Holy Spirit and obedience to our Lord Jesus Christ are in a closed unity, that is how we evaluate spiritual things spirtually:

Acts 5:31  Him hath God exalted with his right hand to be a Prince and a Saviour, for to give repentance to Israel, and forgiveness of sins. And we are his witnesses of these things; and so is also the Holy Ghost, whom God hath given to them that obey him.

note: given to them that obey him, who is him? The Lord Jesus Christ [Him hath God exalted Acts 5:31]

Brethern,

I am not apologizing to Paulwest, I meant what I said:

So, what you are saying is that Faith without Works is dead. And to the individual who dare's to take God's word out of context therefor omitting the Spirit of God, grace and peace.

"Sigh"...

Why is the ministry which leads one to Christ more important than the ministry of Elijah?

Jhn 16:8
"And when He has come, He will convict the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:

Jhn 16:9
"of sin, because they do not believe in Me;

Jhn 16:10
"of righteousness, because I go to My Father and you see Me no more;

The ministry of Elijah, through the work of the Spirit will convict those who have not known Christ. This ministry is the work of God to bring the individual to the cross of Christ. The sacrifice of the Lamb has reconciled us to the Father. Yet, there is according to the Scripture above a second work of the Holy Spirit.

Jhn 16:10 "of righteousness, because I go to My Father and you see Me no more."

In this verse, there are two points. First, the Helper will take the place of Jesus because He will soon depart from them. They will see Him no more. The Helper is to continue the work that Jesus started in the disciples. Note again, the first work of the spirit is to convict the world, then Jesus changes the focus to those He is at this moment teaching.

Jhn 16:12
"I still have many things to say to you, but you cannot bear them now.

Jhn 16:13
"However, when He, the Spirit of truth, has come, He will guide you into all truth; for He will not speak on His own authority, but whatever He hears He will speak; and He will tell you things to come.

Jhn 16:14
"He will glorify Me, for He will take of what is Mine and declare it to you.

The above three verses are commentary on "of righteousness" found in verse 10.

If one only has the baptism of John what work is not taking place in that individuals life?

If one only has the baptism of John what work is not taking place in that individuals life?

Isa 48:17
Thus says the LORD, your Redeemer,
The Holy One of Israel:
"I am the LORD your God,
Who teaches you to profit,
Who leads you by the way you should go.

Isa 48:18
Oh, that you had heeded My commandments!
Then your peace would have been like a river,
And your righteousness like the waves of the sea.

Because one does not heed, one will have no peace because he has not walked with his Savior. He has refused to be taught the truth that sets one free from the ways of Satan.

John 13:
7 Jesus answered and said to him, "What I am doing you do not understand now, but you will know after this.”

8 Peter said to Him, "You shall never wash my feet!”

Jesus answered him, "If I do not wash you, you have no part with Me.”

9 Simon Peter said to Him, "Lord, not my feet only, but also my hands and my head!”

10 Jesus said to him, "He who is bathed needs only to wash his feet, but is completely clean; and you are clean, but not all of you.” 11 For He knew who would betray Him; therefore He said, "You are not all clean.”

The above section of Scripture is commentary on 'continued' work of Jesus in His disciples once He ascended back to His Father. Again, the baptism of John speaks to the reconciled position of the disciple. Please note what Jesus says...

Jesus answered him, "If I do not wash you, you have no part with Me.”

Likewise consider this parable...

Matthew 12
43 "When an unclean spirit goes out of a man, he goes through dry places, seeking rest, and finds none. 44 Then he says, ‘I will return to my house from which I came.’ And when he comes, he finds it empty, swept, and put in order. 45 Then he goes and takes with him seven other spirits more wicked than himself, and they enter and dwell there; and the last state of that man is worse than the first. So shall it also be with this wicked generation.”

Please note, "he finds it empty,"

What has not taken place after the baptism of John?

mmmh! - how unusual - just did talk with my wife about Matt 12

this parable just got real in her life last night, a girl fell unconscious at home after been ministered to that afternoon. So my wife went there again at night being called for help together with two other ladies. They thought of it as a sudden illness, so they took care of it with oil, massage and prayer.

Until that girl suddenly started shouting with a deep voice: "I will not let her go, she belongs to me" while rolling her eyes and exposing an unusual long tongue. She screamed so loud that all the neighbours got on the street and asked if they could help. My wife started to address the spirit directly, what was a first in her life experience, and commanded him to leave in the name of Jesus. What he refused, so they kept on praying for over an hour, until he suddenly said "it's getting so hot in here, it's getting so hot in here" and was gone. The girl woke up and asked what happened. Half of the neighbourhood came by and heard a teaching about the power of Jesus to command unclean spirits.

Sorry to interrupt your flow, I just listented to that report and said she should go back there today, the spirit promised not to come back, but his testimony is questionable, he might have friends. The girl is catholic and now is the time for her to put her faith in Jesus Christ.

Isa 48:17
Thus says the LORD, your Redeemer,
The Holy One of Israel:
"I am the LORD your God,
Who teaches you to profit,
Who leads you by the way you should go.

As commentary on the above verse...

Rom 5:9
Much more then, having now been justified by His blood, we shall be saved from wrath through Him.

Rom 5:10
For if when we were enemies we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, much more, having been reconciled, we shall be saved by His life.

Paul identifies the work of the two ministries of the Spirit. First we have been reconciled, justified, by His blood. Secondly, and Paul emphasizes this point as being the most important, "we shall be saved from wrath through Him" and "we shall be saved by His life." A little further down in this section of Scripture Paul writes this...

Rom 5:17
For if by the one man’s offense death reigned through the one, much more those who receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness will reign in life through the One, Jesus Christ.)

"Much more those who receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness will reign in life through the One, Jesus Christ." Those who receive an abundance of grace will be saved from wrath and will understand the gift of righteousness which is His Life.

Isa 48:17
Thus says the LORD, your Redeemer,
The Holy One of Israel:
"I am the LORD your God,
Who teaches you to profit,
Who leads you by the way you should go.

Mat 11:28
"Come to Me, all you who labor and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.

Mat 11:29
"Take My yoke upon you and learn from Me, for I am gentle and lowly in heart, and you will find rest for your souls.

Mat 11:30
"For My yoke is easy and My burden is light.”

If you don't learn from Him your burden will only increase.