Menu

Starting over with church

S
sermonindex

Hey all...need some advice on finding a church. Its been a few years being out of a local church and during that time we have visited some. I can't seem to move out looking again. I am just so tired of the cookie cutter church, it seems to be all the same. I will browse their websites and read their doctrinal statements and listen to a sermon and tell its just the same thing just wrapped up prettier. I admit I am a little frighten to go and little resentful too. What if you don't believe in somethings they teach or do, like tithing or coming up front for invitation..am I wrong to get hung up on that? I have the book PRINCIPLES FOR THE GATHERING OF BELIEVERS UNDER THE HEADSHIP OF JESUS CHRIST, its been a big help...but felling so stuck.

any words of help would be great!

S
sermonindex

Are there any house churches in your area? There are usually no requirements to fellowship with them such as attending classes on what the church expects of their members (tithing, involvement in programs, etc).

Maybe you can find valuable relationships and fellowship in such an environment. Some people have found that in religious institutions, but clearly, there are alternatives.

There are house churches in most areas, today. Have you looked?

S
sermonindex

What if you don't believe in somethings they teach or do, like tithing or coming up front for invitation..am I wrong to get hung up on that? I have the book PRINCIPLES FOR THE GATHERING OF BELIEVERS UNDER THE HEADSHIP OF JESUS CHRIST, its been a big help...but felling so stuck.

Guidelines For Gathering
http://gospelfellowships.net/guidelines/

Those guidelines could be an encouragement for you to pray for your local area and for the Lord to lead 2-3 others to meet with you weekly.

Another thought is if there is a contact point in your state they could possibly connect you with other fellowships: http://gospelfellowships.net/find-fellowship/

T
turn

Seen on twitter.com...

RT @dplum: If u make disciples, u always get the Church. If u make a church, u rarely get disciples. - @Mike_Breen

Jesus commanded that we make disciples but never directly commanded that we plant churches.

S
Sidewalk

In my area there are many churches, mostly seeker friendly and other gimmicks by which they grind away pushing the message of Easy Believe. To keep my blood pressure and attitude in check, I keep a respectful distance. Instead, I got involved with a ministry that's doing something constructive with real people. No time for political infighting, or fruitless discussions about angels and pinheads.

Side benefit, I even get to preach once in a while! Thank you Lord!

S
sermonindex

Hey Just-In there is not many home churches in my area, its predominantly Southern Baptist and COC here. So any departure from conventional church is uncommon and frowned upon. Not saying there isn't any, but very few is my guess. Its football and church on Sunday in the south! I am praying for something and praying that I will be open. My son and I went out to check a church this morning, the church was average, but the time I had with son was priceless!

I thought about starting a home church but not sure yet.

D
dolfan

I will pray for you, reformer. And, you pray for my wife and me, please.

S
sermonindex

Thanks brother I have checked it about a couple of months ago; will check again though. I have thought about starting a home fellowship but not sure yet whether I can do it. Our house is pretty small and not sure if we could host a couple of families, we are hoping to move into another house next summer for something a little larger to host families...unless we meet a couple that would open up there home.

I appreciated the book, it has been a blessing and encouragement. Regrettably I have to meet others on line, like Sermonindex, that understand the type of fellowship we all seek. The brethren I have here don't understand why or what I am looking for...they think I am in grave error and sin by not going to church on Sunday. If I can find something I will more than happy be part of it.

thanks again!

D
dolfan

Our home is small/small average, I guess. But, we are planning on at least using it to meet with a handful from our church. We are not planning on leaving our church nor do we revolt or whatever. We are convinced that this kind of fellowship is the way to meet and win the lost, build biblical relationships, etc. We hope to extend the reach of the. corporate church we are part of. We are not aiming to leave, yet we also are painfully and inescapably aware of the very truths and principles of the house church way.

S
sermonindex

Hi Reformer,

I guarantee that there are others that have been "beaten down by the machine" of religion and are just looking for genuine friendship and fellowship.

Sometime people that say, "I am thinking about starting a house church", just need to take some baby steps, first. Because the thoughts behind that statement can be daunting (commitment to week after week of meetings). Why not just invite some people over that you know love the Lord and have a barbecue (lunch together) and enjoy their fellowship. Get to know one another, spend the afternoon telling each other how you came to the Lord is always a blessed way to start.

If you don't know a single soul that truly loves the Lord to the extent where they will give up an afternoon for fellowship with others then it is time to get out and meet new people (make disciples). I am speaking about people in need, because if you can't find fellowship then it is time to make some. You will be built up and begin to make more friends than you ever had if you start thinking about how you can be a blessing to others. What about going to senior citizen homes and encouraging others in the Lord or telling some (who don't know Him) about Him. Just praying for people is great. Then there are prisons, local jails, kitchens that help the poor, charities that help the poor. So often, Christians don't want to get involved in any organization unless it is "Christian" run, but I think a lot of opportunities are being missed.

I think once we take our eyes off of ourselves we are able to see a lot more happening around us and begin to see others needs. And believe me, there are downtrodden people all around us.

In reading the NT, I see many in the Church always "going" and preaching the gospel and making disciples. Maybe that is what time it is in your life.....make disciples. Show your son by example how to talk to others about the Lord, how to love men that have been trodden down, are poor, sick and/or discouraged. Demonstrate to your son an example of walking as Jesus walked. Show your son that if one does not have fellowship they don't just keep visiting churches ad nauseum and grading them (positives and negatives) because that is going to send a very bad message to your son about the church. You could knock on doors at apartment complexes. You and your son are already a team of 2, so you have a partner. I have knocked on doors at apartment complexes and brother, I can tell you there are many people that are waiting to hear a good word, an encouraging word, a loving word.

If you are looking in religious circles you may not find people that want to leave the "safety" of the religious setting, but you will always find the poor, lost, and discouraged if you but open your eyes and your heart. Your son does not need more visits to other churches with you where you are just going to tell him why you can't go to that church. Your son needs to see you BEING what you cannot find in others. You want to raise a son that walks as Jesus walks and takes the lead. Not a son who is looking to follow men and complains all the time about the state of the church.

Strike out with Jesus and blaze a new trail. It seems your town needs one. Soon, you will have more fellowship than you need. You don't need more teaching or programs. You already know the Lord and His ways and since He is your Shepherd, I firmly believe He can speak to you and guide you in your present situation. You are also in my prayers and I look forward to what God is going to do in your life.

M
murrcolr

Hi Reformer
I can say I am like you, I don’t attend church and haven’t for a lot of years, but I also am finding myself being stirred on this matter. Maybe there is something more going on that we are not aware of (the big picture as a manager would say).

I see myself reaching out to those around me they might be Christians but for sure it will be the unsaved. I guess these thoughts stem from when I first became a Christian. The man that was discipling me encouraged me to reach out to those around me in my neighbor-hood as in his words, I was a living in a harvest field and sure enough I started to see God move in the area around about. That was with no real training, no bible school attendance (I was a new Christian) only prayer and a desire to see God touch those around me.

I don’t know what God’s requiring of you or leading you, but I hope in small way I have encouraged you, even if it's so that you can know that you’re not alone.

S
sermonindex

"To keep my blood pressure and attitude in check, I keep a respectful distance."

This is classic, you also read my mail perfectly with this statement...thank you for giving me quite a chuckle dear brother:)

The only problem is that in some ways my family (esp. kids) miss out. This is alleviated somewhat with a simple little fellowship we host on Saturday nights whenever we can. Blessings!

O
Oracio

What if you don't believe in somethings they teach or do, like tithing or coming up front for invitation..am I wrong to get hung up on that?

Good question brother. I think it depends on how seriously they take those non-essentials. If they say there must be division based on those views then obviously you must separate from them if you don't hold those views. Sadly many evangelical churches are that divisive when it comes to non-essentials which is why there are so many denominations.

I think we also need to be careful that we ourselves do not contribute to that kind of division within the Body over non-essentials.

If they are not preaching the true gospel and are departing from essential truth and practice we must separate from them. This sometimes calls for much discernment from the Lord.

I agree with brother Greg that it is good for us to pray for the Lord to send 2-3 believers our way with whom we can fellowship in a home. If we are faithful in the small things God will be pleased.

I'm in a similar situation as you though I am attending a traditional church on Sunday mornings(a small Calvary Chapel which meets in a hotel). I prefer meeting in a home but I have not found any believers who would be committed to meeting as a church in a home. So I've been feeling that attending that church is the next best thing since it's some fellowship my family(wife and two small children) can get consistently.

I have not chosen to just meet with my wife and two children because I haven't felt it's enough and my kids require an adult to supervise them at all times. Please let me know if you think I am wrong in seeing it like that, I won't be offended at all.

I recently opened up our small home for fellowship with a few believers and we've been blessed in our times of meeting together. But at this point I don't think those few believers will be ready for committing solely and primarily to a small house church. They actually started attending the Calvary Chapel I go to because I told them about it. So even if they would commit to meeting in my home and breaking off from that church it may come across as divisive to the pastor of that church(it's a very small church).

I need much wisdom and guidance from the Lord and ask for your prayers. I will be praying for you reformer. Hang in there.

S
Sidewalk

Just-in, I just love your response! Thank you for taking the time to put that thought together and into a post!

So many people are out there hurting just because no one has ever really loved on them. They are hungry for it!

When Jesus tells the judgement story and tells those with whom He is pleased that they fed Him when He was hungry, clothed Him when he was naked, visited Him in prison- they all wondered when they might have seen Jesus in that situation. They only saw ordinary people at the time...

S
sermonindex

Hi Sidewalk,

Thank you for your kind words.

We are not supposed to be like the Dead Sea, with no outlet. The Dead Sea cannot support life but it can support people of leisure. You can float on your back in the Dead Sea but you can't drink it's water so you will end up a person of leisure that dies of thirst.

Another person in this thread talked about us being in the middle of a harvest. Fields, white with harvest and the Church with such an opportunity, is introspective and inward.

Jesus had no one who shared his heart except His Father, because they were one. Jesus kept His will in harmony with His Father's. He did not search endlessly for someone who would agree with Him or someone that He could agree with. His heart was fixed and if all the disciples left Him, He was not going to be shaken from His Father's will.

If we are whole in Christ and enjoying the close fellowship and security of His heart then we will be about our Father's business. We won't entertain any thoughts that detract from His will.

Look, there has always been a religious system and there always will be.

If we have the Spirit of God indwelling us our attitude should be an overcoming attitude. We are here to seek and to save the lost and make disciples. Of course we cannot save, as we are only conduits of Jesus Christ. We are His voice, His arms, His hands, and His feet, but He is the substance in the temple. We are containers and the container holds the substance but can never be the substance. "We have this treasure in earthen vessels..."

We simply need to get out of the way (self), removing all the obstacles, open our cartons and let the love of God pour out of us.

There are many things that quench the Spirit of God in us. Fear, hurts, bitterness, unforgiveness, rivalries, pride, strife, etc, etc. These things will turn us into the Dead Sea. The Dead Sea is well,,,DEAD, because it is selfish and has no outlet to others. And a lot of people find comfort and solace and leisure in the Dead Sea. I want the Living Waters!

We must look away from all that is not of Him, that which seeks to destroy us and make us unfruitful in Him and we are to allow Him to be all that He wants to be in our lives.

We are the impediment, not others. We need to wake up and realize that Christ is alive and wants to live in us and wants to touch not only the lost but also our brothers and sisters.

We are to "rule in the midst of our enemies" and not let our enemy rule in our midst.

For far too long I bemoaned the fact that the churches were all messed up and woe was me because I could not find any fellowship. I even thought that house churches were the answer, but they aren't. Christ is the answer and always be.

I found plenty of fellowship, long hours of fellowship, real, genuine fellowship when I repented of my discontentment and ungratefulness and let the rivers of living waters flow out of me like they are supposed to. And you know something? The more I loved people and thought about them instead of myself, the more I was made whole.

One thing I learned that was very important in my life was to draw men to Christ and not to people or churches. Not to home church and not to particular institutional churches. Just draw men to Christ and let Him be their Shepherd. And the flip side is that I don't draw men away from their place of fellowship whether it is a house church or an institutional setting, because and this is very important, it is wrong to be part of a divisive spirit even if you think you are right and it is wrong to draw people away from valuable, genuine relationships. There are genuine relationships in all kinds of settings.

We don't have to be part of all the division, strife and discontentment. There is no time for that. Jesus Christ is on the move...are we on the move with Him?

S
sermonindex

///The brethren I have here don't understand why or what I am looking for...they think I am in grave error and sin by not going to church on Sunday. If I can find something I will more than happy be part of it.///

Brothers, I have heard many of you regret the many divisions in the church, and yet it seems to me (from a distance and without all the information) that you are perpetuating those very same divisions. The whole Gospel Fellowships Movement that I am hearing so much about is one more division in the Church that will (if it continues) become another denomination.

Reformer I don't know your situation or Colin's so I may be way off the mark, but I do find it hard to believe that there isn't a single church within driving distance that has the marks of the church: proclaiming the gospel, administering the ordinannces of baptism/Lord's Supper and exercising discipline. Is it so bad where you are?

S
sermonindex

Stephen,

I understand Reformer. Form does not guarantee function.

The functioning and presence of the Spirit is not held captive to us just because we have the form. The Spirit of God will easily move on when men ignore Him.

I do find it rather easy to believe what Reformer is saying, because so many institutions and some house churches are gathering around each other, or tradition, or religion, or someone's systematic theology and not Jesus Christ.

Reformer and Jesus can still do quite a lot together and that is the point I am making. We are not held hostage to the local expression of Christianity nor the lack of it.

Jesus is not at a loss for what to do in Reformer's life,,,TODAY!

S
sermonindex

The Scriptures do instruct us to turn away from those who deny the power of godliness (in their words and actions) and who have but a mere form of it.

2Ti_3:5 Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: FROM SUCH TURN AWAY.

If a brother says there is nothing in their area that they have found, I lean more towards believing them than not.

S
sermonindex

"The whole Gospel Fellowships Movement that I am hearing so much about is one more division in the Church that will (if it continues) become another denomination."

My mother always used to say, "if you cannot say anything nice, just keep your mouth shut". In this case I think it applies very well. To those involved with Gospel Fellowships...KEEP UP THE GOOD WORK BROTHERS!!!

Gospel Fellowships is a genuine effort by sincere brothers trying to help those who are wanting to "start over with church". Now that's irony:) I love that they are encouraging the body of Christ to gather under the headship of Christ...which is biblical and sound and hardly divisive.

S
sermonindex

It may not seem 'nice' to say that Gospel Fellowships are another division in the Church (and I certainly wasn't trying to be unkind) but it is a fact, and as one man has said "Facts are stubborn things; and whatever may be our wishes, our inclinations, or the dictates of our passion, they cannot alter the state of facts and evidence."

When we leave churches to form new ones we are adding to the problem of division. Now we can make the case that the division is necessary, but there is no sense denying that division has taken place. If Gospel Fellowships replaces churches; if it becomes a movement away from local churches that already exist than it is - pure and simple - divisive...

///I love that they are encouraging the body of Christ to gather under the headship of Christ///

What Christian church doesn't? I've read the statement of faith and it reads like many other statement faiths held by many churches and denominations that already exist.

awakened, by using your mother's words you broke the very principle you want me to keep.

S
sermonindex

Stephen, I am not interested in arguing with you, I will let your words about GF be the last word...others can check it out for themselves.

S
sermonindex

Awakened, I am sorry that I left you the impression that I want an argument with you.

I may have it all wrong and would love to be corrected... if someone would be willing to do so.

Is GF parachurch or is it a movement away from local churches? Are these house fellowships replacements for local churches/denominations that already exist or are they supplemental?

If GF is in any way a movement away from local churches then it is divisive (!) - and maybe that division is necessary. If so, I would be glad to hear the rationale. But gathering under the headship of Christ isn't good enough. All our churches profess the same!

I have no wish to blindly accuse anyone of any wrongdoing. I am simply making observations based on the information I now have. But I hope no one is going to treat GF as untouchable. Let's hold up everything to scrutiny and careful discernment. Let's not be as the JW's and shut down hard conversations and questions.

S
sermonindex

by Stephen2 on 2013/11/20 10:36:57

When we leave churches to form new ones we are adding to the problem of division. Now we can make the case that the division is necessary, but there is no sense denying that division has taken place. If Gospel Fellowships replaces churches; if it becomes a movement away from local churches that already exist than it is - pure and simple - divisive...

and not all division is bad. Some is God-ordained and commanded. Jesus came to bring a sword (of truth) to the earth and this sword does divide those who hold the truth in unrighteousness and those who don't.

#1 As far as I can tell, Gospel Fellowships embraces everyone that loves the Lord, no strings attached.

#2 If you are the church you cannot "leave the church". Leaving a group or organization or institution is not the same as leaving the Church. If you take yourself out of the Church you are leaving Christ's Body and thus, Christ. So, your statement is grossly inaccurate. We have freedom in Christ to fellowship with likeminded brethren and we are even commanded to "turn away from those who walk after a form of godliness yet deny the power (cross) thereof".



///I love that they are encouraging the body of Christ to gather under the headship of Christ///

What Christian church doesn't? I've read the statement of faith and it reads like many other statement faiths held by many churches and denominations that already exist.

Many, many so-called churches are very discouraging to the Body of Christ (those who seek to walk in love and truth).

Where did you ever get the notion that Christians cannot choose to leave a religious organization or even a local expression of the Body of Christ and gather with others?

Where did you ever get the notion that every organization that calls themselves a "church" is encouraging to the Body of Christ?

Why do you think all division is totally bad? That is like saying "judging" is completely bad.

Mat 10:34 Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword.
Mat 10:35 For I am come to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter in law against her mother in law.
Mat 10:36 And a man's foes shall be they of his own household.
Mat 10:37 He that loveth father or mother more than me is not worthy of me: and he that loveth son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me.
Mat 10:38 And he that taketh not his cross, and followeth after me, is not worthy of me.

When people won't listen to the Lord speaking through you, you have no choice but to move on.

Isa 29:13 Wherefore the Lord said, Forasmuch as this people draw near me with their mouth, and with their lips do honour me, but have removed their heart far from me, and their fear toward me is taught by the precept of men:

Jesus repeated it for us!
Mat 15:7-9 Ye hypocrites, well did Esaias prophesy of you, saying, this people draweth nigh unto me with their mouth, and honoureth me with their lips; but their heart is far from me. but in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.

Can you blame one that does not desire to dwell with people like this?
Isa 58:2-4 Yet they seek me daily, and delight to know my ways, as a nation that did righteousness, and forsook not the ordinance of their God: they ask of me the ordinances of justice; they take delight in approaching to God. Wherefore have we fasted, say they, and thou seest not? wherefore have we afflicted our soul, and thou takest no knowledge? Behold, in the day of your fast ye find pleasure, and exact all your labours. Behold, ye fast for strife and debate, and to smite with the fist of wickedness: ye shall not fast as ye do this day, to make your voice to be heard on high.

Do you also blame Jeremiah for not sticking with his people?
Jer 9:1 Oh that my head were waters, and mine eyes a fountain of tears, that I might weep day and night for the slain of the daughter of my people!
Jer 9:2 Oh that I had in the wilderness a lodging place of wayfaring men; that I might leave my people, and go from them! for they be all adulterers, an assembly of treacherous men.

I am glad you have not experienced "treacherous men" and spiritual "adulterers" in the church, or those who render lip service to God, but that does not mean they don't exist. They exist much more than you know. I don't blame or chastise any brother who desires to find a people that love the Lord from their HEART!

Do you want to dwell with those who profess to know God but in their works they deny Him?
Tit 1:16 They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate.

Then, trust your brothers when they say they have experienced first hand what you have not experienced. You make them out to be liars when you doubt them.


S
sermonindex

by Stephen2 on 2013/11/20 11:01:59

Awakened, I am sorry that I left you the impression that I want an argument with you.

I may have it all wrong and would love to be corrected... if someone would be willing to do so.

I just corrected you, if you are willing to receive it.

Jesus said, "where two or more are gathered in my name, I am in the midst of them".

Stephen, it's not what you profess, it is what you LIVE.

Why don't you look at GF as a movement towards the Lord than a movement away from something. Look at the positive not the negative. Yes, there are many churches that one will automatically move away from just because they are now moving towards the Lord.

If GF is in any way a movement away from local churches then it is divisive (!) - and maybe that division is necessary. If so, I would be glad to hear the rationale. But gathering under the headship of Christ isn't good enough. All our churches profess the same!

Division is necessary to illuminate the truth.

That is the nature of the sword that Jesus brought.

He knew some would moved towards the light and some would not.

By their works, they make themselves evident.

Now, you are painting a broad brush that all "local churches" are somehow untouchable, yet you want GF NOT TO BE untouchable. That is a bit hypocritical, don't you think.

If you have a real case against GF, then present it, but you really can't make a case that somehow Believers who are deciding to gather together under a different focus and expression than the "local church", are in sin.

S
Sidewalk

You are on fire, Just-in!

Good stuff! Never did have much time for namby pamby Christianity, especially when I see it in my mirror!

D
dolfan

For 20 years, the house church movement has held my heart. In 1991 or so, while sitting in a class at the bible college I was attending, the leading official in our denomination came and sat in. It was a treat. He was a humble, gentle man who never seemed to take himself too seriously or exalt himself in any way I ever knew. He had a real servant's heart and a love for Jesus and esteemed the Word of God rightly.

We were given a chance for Q & A. I asked him, "What do you think of house churches and do you think they are part of our [denominational] future?" He looked at me with irritation. And, he said that house churches will not take the place of organized churches and that they had no leadership. He spent about one minute dismissing the idea and moved on.

I felt two things. First, I felt a little stupid for having asked. It embarrassed me. Second, I thought about it and quickly decided that he did not know what he was talking about. But I stayed shushed about it and largely kept my thoughts to myself. For decades.

Over the years and for diverse reasons, the idea has hovered in me like a buzzard over a pasture. I spot it, I know it is there, I will even watch it circle because it holds some awe in my mind, but at the end of it, I have dismissed it as just a buzzard on scent.

I have had good warrant for that. After all, my own motives are suspect. I know because I know me. I know my heart is deceitful and desperately wicked. But, the thought has never left.

Now, after all those years, it is almost as if a mushroom of popularity has popped up in the night. Lots of folks are talking about house churches. Not cell groups and such, but house churches. It ran right by my notice and jumped up over to my right side so to speak as I am walking with The Lord in our denominational church of whom we are part.

There is a difference this time. My wife of 25 years is now saying these things. We pray separately and the same thoughts happen to us individually so that when we talk and pray, etc., we are speaking alike. Spontaneously. That has never really been the case in terms of this particular idea. Just this morning, she said, "I don't know. Maybe all of this is just your influence on me. Maybe you have gotten into my head."

I laughed. "No. You are coming up with this on your own because even you are saying things I have not said even though I thought them." The Lord is speaking to us.

We lead a discipleship ministry at our local church. We are classic Wesleyan holiness Pentecostal believers. And, we see an absolute desert of New Testament living in our church. We do little or nothing to focus on winning lost people and maturing them in Christ.

At the same time, as we painfully pray about these things, God is bringing my wife to urgently read writings that.....by my estimation are way over due but are just now coming into vogue in some circles.....confirm and encourage these longings within. We have already read and been influenced by men like Francis Chan, David Platt, Greear, and others. Now, my wife is reading Driscoll's "Call to Resurgence". I have not yet read it and don't know that I will because, frankly, I doubt he is saying anything that is not already in mind and heart. But, over and above that, God is using Sermon Index in our lives.

I listen to deeply churched men like David Wilkerson. Carter Conlon, Jim Cymbala, and A.W. TOZER and Paul Washer and many more. My wife has some she listens to. I read these boards. I downloaded the GF book and read some of it (no critical speech meant, but it is a bit longish and dwells too much in places). I watched the conference,in August. I followed that with watching videos and teaching by Bro. Balcombe. My wife and I watched and even showed his talk from Saturday at our local church discipleship ministry meeting.

We are more and more convinced that the power of the gospel of Jesus is being made subservient to so many other concerns in regular church. We are not, though, convinced that we ought to pull out and start a house church. We love our church, but we are also convinced that many or most in it may not even truly be saved in spite of their testimony. And, it looks to us as if no one knows this. The pastor, bless his heart, is consistently preaching his guts out on this very topic about living out what the Bible says. But, he is also making a very decent living for his family as a pastor. It is a tough spot to be in to preach up to the line of making folks mad enough to close their wallets or walk away when your own food supply is tied to keeping them in and keeping them paying. I do not envy him. I feel for him. But, moreover, we love these people. And, so we think maybe we can extend the local church with a house church meeting that may possibly grow converts. Because, try as we might to make the come and see model work, come and see really means come and watch and sit. That is not the way of these last days. And, we are sick and disgusted with our own selves for want of doing something. But, we also await The Lord.

Hat is why I posted the other day about the dearth of videos of legit house church meetings as opposed to everyone's "expert opinion" videos on the why and how-to of house churches. We know why. We don't need to be told why more and more. We need some guidance on the what and how by example and not by lecture. If the only good of this movement in America is to give a place for some folks to make social media footprints and post up videos of themselves, we don't need that, either.

So, I repeat my call for help.

S
sermonindex

I am sorry that I left you the impression that I want an argument with you.

You didn't, I just didn't want to continue this and turn it into an argument...its all good:)

I may have it all wrong and would love to be corrected...

Just-in did a pretty good job of dealing with most of your questions and some other things that you raised...it certainly helped me anyway.

Is GF parachurch or is it a movement away from local churches? Are these house fellowships replacements for local churches/denominations that already exist or are they supplemental?

The simplest way I can describe the GF movement is just that...it is a "movement". It is a movement in that it is an idea. An idea that people want to return to a pure expression of the church as found in scripture. Unless we have been living on different planets I and a lot of others have found these "expressions" to be few and far between.

People are tired of searching and they don't know what to do, so the ideas have been scratched out for them in a simple book of principles, encouraging them to just meet together under the headship of Christ. While this is a principle that is PROFESSED by all churches, finding this at work in practice is quite another thing altogether.

I hope no one is going to treat GF as untouchable. Let's hold up everything to scrutiny and careful discernment. Let's not be as the JW's and shut down hard conversations and questions.

Referencing a false cult is not a good choice of words, in calling for discernment of GF but anyway. What is your beef with GF? As just-in said, look for the good things that GF is promoting, rather than pontificate as to what MIGHT go wrong. For goodness sakes, thats like a couple holding off starting a family because the children MIGHT go off the rails when they grow up, or they MIGHT cause heart ache down the road.

GF to my knowledge doesnt even fall under that concrete of an analogy because nothing is being proposed to form. It is not an organization even, it is an idea, an embryonic one at that! I tiny group of people starting to form the same ideas and fellowshipping together (usually online or on the phone). I think of it as a few people who are communicating simply by drawing the outline of a fish in the sand as they pass by each other in life. An idea, a movement...but if God breathes on it, then it will take life and be a blessing to His Kingdom.

I hope that helps.

S
sermonindex

Is GF parachurch or is it a movement away from local churches? Are these house fellowships replacements for local churches/denominations that already exist or are they supplemental?

Gospel Fellowships are local churches. The Church is not where there is a building nor where there is one pastor. The Church is where there are believers that are under the Headship of Jesus Christ. Jesus said I will build my Church. When people refer to local church they usually mean and system of men that was invented over 400 years ago during the reformation times where there is one pastor over all the people and a group of men called elders who make business decisions mostly. The idea of a one-man leadership as well as the unbiblical use of elders as a voting body is foreign to the New Testament. Gospel Fellowships follow the New Testament believe that there is a multiplicity of Elders who are the Pastors/Teachers/Apostles/Evangelists. So in modern vernacular they are all Pastors.

There are many groups that have formed and some larger gatherings across the USA and also in other parts of the world to my knowledge.


If GF is in any way a movement away from local churches then it is divisive (!) - and maybe that division is necessary. If so, I would be glad to hear the rationale. But gathering under the headship of Christ isn't good enough. All our churches profess the same!

If the local churches are apostate yes. But as I explained above your reasoning is not right because Gospel Fellowships are local churches so it is a purifying agent amongst them. From my knowledge Gospel Fellowships has unified much more then divide. There are many brethren and groups that have been independent and alone and Gospel Fellowships has encouraged them to all agree and come together. Praise God for this. As more and more denominations apostatize may God unify His true saints in large networks of believers is our prayer.

I am glad you asked this questions because your thinking was wrong about them and it gave us a chance to help clarify to you these things.

S
sermonindex

///#2 If you are the church you cannot "leave the church". Leaving a group or organization or institution is not the same as leaving the Church. If you take yourself out of the Church you are leaving Christ's Body and thus, Christ. So, your statement is grossly inaccurate.///

I think you misunderstood me. I didn't mean big C church. See what I wrote, ///Is GF parachurch or is it a movement away from local churches?///

///Why do you think all division is totally bad? That is like saying "judging" is completely bad.///

I actually said the following, ///and maybe that division is necessary. If so, I would be glad to hear the rationale.///

Brother, I commend your zeal but please carefully read my posts before responding. Neither of us knows what is in the other's heart, so lets proceed cautiously in this discussion.

///Then, trust your brothers when they say they have experienced first hand what you have not experienced. You make them out to be liars when you doubt them.///

A.W. Pink left the local churches and isolated himself for the same reasons articulated on this thread. He believed the churches were in too poor a condition. I categorically do not believe he was a liar, but I believe he was very wrong. Brother, please understand, I don't believe anyone on this thread is lying.

///Now, you are painting a broad brush that all "local churches" are somehow untouchable, yet you want GF NOT TO BE untouchable. That is a bit hypocritical, don't you think.///

I don't think local churches are untouchable. We should be critical. We should work for change and call for repentance. I have never objected to such criticisms. But you are objecting to my even seeming to question GF. That's what I mean by 'untouchable'.

///If you have a real case against GF, then present it, but you really can't make a case that somehow Believers who are deciding to gather together under a different focus and expression than the "local church", are in sin.///

Brother, I'm asking questions. It doesn't make sense to me that a group which espouses unity would at the same time be a group that is a movement out of local churches. I would like to know why that is deemed necessary. Many of the movements of the past that have started for the same reasons have only become new denominations. The brethren movement started much like this as an attempt to unify believers and became the most splintered segment of the Christian Church.

Thanks awakened for your reply. And I meant no harm in referencing a cult. It is characteristic of cults that questions and hard questions are not allowed. The reaction I got to the questions I asked seemed a little over the top - but I certainly didn't mean to accuse you of being like those groups.

///The idea of a one-man leadership as well as the unbiblical use of elders as a voting body is foreign to the New Testament. ///

Well this is certainly where you and I would differ... If I'm understanding you. "Obey them that have the rule over you, and submit yourselves: for they watch for your souls, as they that must give account..."

Would GF be like the brethren movement in its understanding of church governance?

///From my knowledge Gospel Fellowships has unified much more then divide. There are many brethren and groups that have been independent and alone and Gospel Fellowships has encouraged them to all agree and come together. Praise God for this. As more and more denominations apostatize may God unify His true saints in large networks of believers is our prayer.///

I am thankful for that. That is a phenomenon that is unknown to me, and if God is using GF to bring likeminded brothers together than it is certainly bringing about a kind of unity.

And thanks for helping correct some of my misunderstandings... that, my brothers, is why I asked!


S
sermonindex

///The idea of a one-man leadership as well as the unbiblical use of elders as a voting body is foreign to the New Testament. ///

Well this is certainly where you and I would differ... If I'm understanding you. "Obey them that have the rule over you, and submit yourselves: for they watch for your souls, as they that must give account..."

Would GF be like the brethren movement in its understanding of church governance?

I recommend you read the book perhaps the first principles part to get the best idea of what is believed: https://www.sermonindex.net/fellowships/principlesbook.php Submission to leadership is encouraged greatly in the volume. It would be closer to a brethren view of Eldership yet we do not want to be categorized by any labels because it is a brethren movement by any means.

It will probably be better to quote directly from the Principle volume for questions rather then supposing things as has been done in this thread. I realize you did read the statement of faith.

S
sermonindex

by Stephen2 on 2013/11/20 12:03:18

///#2 If you are the church you cannot "leave the church". Leaving a group or organization or institution is not the same as leaving the Church. If you take yourself out of the Church you are leaving Christ's Body and thus, Christ. So, your statement is grossly inaccurate.///

I think you misunderstood me. I didn't mean big C church. See what I wrote, ///Is GF parachurch or is it a movement away from local churches?///

Since a parachurch is a local expression of the church, I always see them as a little "c" church. I never NOT see them as a church.

There is only one Church, yet many little expressions, just like there is one nation (America) with many families in it.

Men have made the term parachurch to differentiate what is not of their religious organization/institution. The truth of the matter is that a parachurch organization is a community of believers and that is obviously a part of the big "C" church.

A.W. Pink left the local churches and isolated himself for the same reasons articulated on this thread. He believed the churches were in too poor a condition. I categorically do not believe he was a liar, but I believe he was very wrong. Brother, please understand, I don't believe anyone on this thread is lying.

Yes, but brethren that are leaving what you call local churches (you have not defined them), are free to associate with others, aren't they? How are they isolating themselves if they are meeting with other believers? "Don't forsake the assembling of yourselves together".

///Now, you are painting a broad brush that all "local churches" are somehow untouchable, yet you want GF NOT TO BE untouchable. That is a bit hypocritical, don't you think.///

I don't think local churches are untouchable. We should be critical. We should work for change and call for repentance. I have never objected to such criticisms. But you are objecting to my even seeming to question GF. That's what I mean by 'untouchable'.

It seems you have a problem with believers deciding to associate with other believers especially if that means leaving the "local church". And what do you mean by local church? In my city there are churches on most every street corner and you will even find churches across the street from each other, yet they don't talk to each other.

Brother, I'm asking questions. It doesn't make sense to me that a group which espouses unity would at the same time be a group that is a movement out of local churches. I would like to know why that is deemed necessary. Many of the movements of the past that have started for the same reasons have only become new denominations. The brethren movement started much like this as an attempt to unify believers and became the most splintered segment of the Christian Church.

I see GF as more of a movement towards Christ. I don't see it as a movement away from anything but let's be honest, when you move towards Christ you are invariably moving away from many things. If the shoe fits, wear it.

///The idea of a one-man leadership as well as the unbiblical use of elders as a voting body is foreign to the New Testament. ///

Actually, the Early Church was about plurality of leadership. And leadership was being a servant, not what we see today.

Would GF be like the brethren movement in its understanding of church governance?

As far as I know, GF is not a "mother church" which lays down for all house churches how they should govern themselves. I believe (and GF can correct me if I am wrong) that their thrust is that local groups of Believers should look to Christ as their Head and take direction from Him and that they encourage "open meetings" where everyone is free to participate. I have been to brethren assemblies and I certainly don't get the sense that GF is encouraging that. Remember, GF is not a church, just brothers encouraging others to meet in homes and hold fast to Christ.

S
sermonindex

Hi Murrcolr

Something is happening that is for sure. Not sure what but I feel I need to look around a bit more. I did visit one church that sunday I posted this subject. The church was okay, typical. But my son and I had a great time hanging out together. I usually go to visit a church by myself instead off hauling them all out. occasionally son comes with me.

I'll be praying for you brother!

BTW you have encouraged me! Appreciate it a great deal!

S
sermonindex

Dolfan

I will be praying for you and your family.

S
sermonindex

Thanks for that Stephen.

One thing is for sure in my walk, I feel more closer and have grown more than I did inside the "IC". My bible studies have been better and I have felt I have learned a lot more than I did before. I have been more relaxed since this time. My relationship with God has grown.

This discussion is archived and closed to new replies. Start a new discussion to carry the subject on.
Archived
1 of 34 posts

Everything we make is available for free because of a generous community of supporters.

Donate