Recently I was looking through a local paper here in my home town and ran across an ad at a Methodist Church advertising a yoga class on Saturday mornings. It seems like everyone is doing yoga these days, believer and non-believers. Just wondered what your thoughts were on this yoga trend? Is it innocent or should we as christians be concerned?
Recently I was looking through a local paper here in my home town and ran across an ad at a Methodist Church advertising a yoga class on Saturday mornings.I think this is a frightful trend, I am not an expert on these things and really don't know all the details of Yoga, but I do sense it is bad and is not something that a Christian should be practising. Many churches are allowing Yoga to come into the Churches to gain more adherents and also rent out space to organisations and other religious groups. Most churches in Toronto (where I come from) are renting out space to questionable organisations because their attendance and tithing is so low. May Churches never comprimise their witness in the neiberhoods they are in. I am looking forward to reading more of what others think of this and more knowledgable people can tell us about the practice of Yoga.
I dont really know but isn't there 2 types of yoga? Isn't one just stretching and the other spiritual? I don't really know. THere may not be more than one type. I would steer clear of it.
Below is a link that has some detailed accounts of the rise of hinduism in America. It's by a man named Elliot Miller.http://www.equip.org/free/DS213.htmI think the biggest problem I am seeing with Christians and yoga, including myself, is the ignorance of the roots of yoga and hinduism.Something that needs to be discussed!
I am looking forward to reading more of what others think of this and more knowledgable people can tell us about the practice of Yoga.There are two issues here for me. The first is the use of the church for Yoga. I don't have much to say on this subject except I liked Bingo better...The second, issue is regarding Yoga itself. Classic Yoga is not only physical but "metaphysical". In fact, the sanskrit for "yoga" and "religion" essentially carry the same definition; i.e., "to yoke" ("yuj/yoga") to the "Spirit" and "to link or bind" ("religio") to the "Spirit." (Yuck) If the yoga being practiced at the Church includes this "meditation path" then something is seriously out of wack! Serious students of yoga are immersed in Hindu scripture and theology.(Buddhist, Sikh or Jain variations) The spiritualist terminology alone would be a red flag. ("Oneness" of Atman and Brahman, Practicing non-attachment, embracing your inner wounds, Buddha says this or teaches us such and such...) Because Yoga is more then simple exercise but "a way of life", it is an open door to spiritual darkness. Could we broaden the discussion to include Martial Arts in general?My son attends Karate class twice a week at the YMCA. Besides bowing as a matter of respect upon entering and leaving the gym, there is no mystic or magic dimension to the class. The instruction is purely physical, with absolutely no "meditation" or any philosophy. For my part, I feel that this "Americanized" Karate is no different then wrestling or boxing. Perhaps there is a "yoga-lite" that is only physical like Pilates or calisthenics.One question that would help me...How do our brothers from the Pac Rim and India feel about yoga and Martial Arts in general? Do they still participate in "sanitized" versions of these activities? I've traveled to these parts of the world often where it was very common to see even elderly people practicing some type of movement art, (Tai Chi?) in public parks or on the balcony's outside their flats. Could any of these people have been Christians? I am only vaguely familiar with the Shaolin/Indian Buddhist orgins of Eastern Martial Arts over a thousand years ago. Perhaps today, in modern times there are "secular" versions of many Martial Arts that are as free from Buddhism as Christmas trees are from paganism.I'll be curious to see what everyone else thinks...MC
I have two accounts from two girls I know, concerning yoga & meditation, The first was at school in yr 10.For a class her teacher was making them do yoga & meditation.She & a friend of hers refused to, on the basis of there beliefs in Jesus Christ & where told to stay up the back of class & that they couldn’t leave till it was over,they complied with this but started to pray over the place where it was happening.As she did the Holy Spirit opened her eyes to the spiritual realm & she started to see demonic figures doing all types of vile & disgusting acts to all these people, who were engrossed in there yoga & meditation.They continued to pray then as if the teacher caught wind of what they were doing yelled at them to leave the class.They were shaken by this experience; the teacher also got them in trouble for being distractions in the class.Second girl was at a university, she was into the fringes of the eastern religions trying to find truth, There was a guy who was a Christian who would discuss God & truth with her, she invited him to her classes but he declined, After a period of time there friendship grew & out of concern for her he said you really shouldn’t be into the yoga & meditation, she asked why, he said it’s a wrong path, only Jesus is the way the truth & the life, he said ask God to show you what happens in your classes & for the truth,She recalled that in her next class while in meditation she kept thinking about what he said ask God to show you the truth, she asked Jesus I want to know the truth is this wrong what im doing?She said that she saw demonic spirits attacking people contorting in & threw there bodies same type of thing as the other vile incident,She told the young man & she later saw that Jesus was the truth.She shared this at a cell group I was in a few years back she thought she was a little cuckoo for what she saw,so she didn’t share it much.because of my background I was able to discuss what she saw & show her that there is a spiritual realm, She later married the guy who to lead her to Christ,I do believe in both these cases it was the gift of discernment in the spiritual realm in operation by the Holy Spirit, Third is a sidenote on there was a uniting church a few years ago, who were holding psychic nights in there hall for some extra dough sad very sad,
Hi everyone. here is a link to something called Praisemoves. I read the "why christian yoga" article and she is clearly against regular yoga and gives the reasons.I do these type of stretches at home and at the gym, also but usually I am praying or thanking God that my body still bends and moves quite nicely :)I can't say I would attend one of these classes though- simply because i prefer weight training and cardio.All I know is that I my body is the temple of the Holy Spirit and where ever I am- so is He. In everything i do, it is to glorify God- whether washing dishes, taking out the trash, jogging to keep my body healthy or stretching to stay flexible.In Christ, Chanin
Do not be unequally yoked can also apply to mixing Christianity with false religions, and yoga is part of a false religion... whether it be yoga "lite" or straight up yoga.There are plenty of other ways to be physically fit without getting involved in yoga.Krispy
If christians want to stretch (which IS very good for you!) why don't they just call it a stretching class?! why even get the word yoga involved because people are obviously going to have problems with it.This is why I don't go to any classes and just stick to my own routines and weight lifting.just my two cents :-) In Christ, Chanin
why even get the word yoga involved because people are obviously going to have problems with it.One possibility is because a particular church is trying to make itself attractive to the world... by offering yoga classes, or some other self-help/entertainment option. This is rampant in the church.I'm a weight lifter myself, but I go to the gym, not the church, to stay physically fit.Krispy
I heard that certain positions in yoga are ones that are used to call up various evil spirits. Don't know if that is true but it was from a fairly believable source.
Don't even get me started on Yoga. There was a thread we already talked about it but I can't remember where or how to post the link. Could somebody post the link here? Thanks.I'm sad to hear that coming from a church, but it's not the first time I've heard it. SHAME! And besides, if there is time for that then there is time for prayer meetings and revival meetings!
I'm sad to hear that coming from a church, but it's not the first time I've heard it. SHAME! And besides, if there is time for that then there is time for prayer meetings and revival meetings!Can you imagine the Apostles organizing something like this?Krispy
Aye, that is a scary thought. I could see them making whips out of cord...Whatever happened to: "My house shall be called a house of prayer"?
It's all about $$ folks.I personally have a problem with Yoga because it is so deep-seated in mysticism that it is virtually imposible to separate the benefits of it (just stretching) from the occultic aspects. If you're just after good stretches, I would recommend a Christian try something far simpler. There are lots of stretching exercises and routines out there that are effective and have nothing to do with Yoga at all.I myself am an instructor in Martial Arts, and as an earlier poster mentioned, aside from bows of respect to the students (and they to me), there's nothing mythical about it. I'm teaching the boys self-defense and discipline, and giving them a good work out while we're at it. During our church's Fall/Spring program Baptist Boys Batallion I am often invited for three or four weeks to show the boys in the club some moves and teach them a thing or two. Again, I keep it free of the eastern junk, in fact I don't know anythinga bout that stuff...in all the forms and years that I've studied, it was never involved in the slightest.
Here's an article/book review which I found today concerning yoga and other types of "spirituality" creeping into the church.........http://www.emediawire.com/releases/2005/2/emw212621.htm
To be honest, Angyl, I am surprised to hear that you instruct martial arts. I do not see the difference, but only another expression of the same facet. It is difficult to tell someone not to do Yoga because of it's religious influence when martial arts comes from the same line. We already said that doing Yoga even apart from the religious garb was dangerous... is this not any different? Perhaps you could post something about this.Also, on another note, is it right for Christians to learn combat? Don't get me wrong, a Christian should not be a coward, but remember: The weapons of our warfare are not carnal but they are mighty in the Holy Ghost. To be honest, I haven't given too much thought on this subject. Let's talk about this.This is going to get interesting...
Also, on another note, is it right for Christians to learn combat? Don't get me wrong, a Christian should not be a coward, but remember: The weapons of our warfare are not carnal but they are mighty in the Holy Ghost. To be honest, I haven't given too much thought on this subject. Let's talk about this.Ask King David. Ask Joshua.There is such a thing as a just war, and as such I see no problem with believers being trained in the military for combat. Police officers are trained to kill if need be. Would that be wrong? Obviously not. Hitler needed to be dealt with... was it wrong to take him out? No... in fact, what happened to the Jews in WWII, and the end result of that war ushered in an era of fulfilled Biblical prophecy like no other since the 1st century AD.Vietnam is questionable. My issue with that war was that our goal was not to win.Of course... I am biased. I was a Marine, altho it was before I was saved. I was in Kuwait back in the first Gulf War. I've been in combat. I would do it again to protect my family, my country, and to protect those around the world who are being oppressed by people like Saddam Hussein. I dont believe we should be the world's police force, but when we know citizens are being raped and murdered by their "leaders" (such as what was happening in Iraq) then we need to do something. If we dont, then we are partakers of that evil.If someone feels different, thats ok... dont join the military. It's not for you.Krispy
It is difficult to tell someone not to do Yoga because of it's religious influence when martial arts comes from the same line...Also, on another note, is it right for Christians to learn combat?"Thems fightin' words! ;-) Not to pre-empt Angyl who might have more to say on the subject...I do see a difference between Yoga and Karate. The moment you strain out all of the "inner health" mysticism from yoga you are left with only stretching. In other words, I think yoga is inseparable from it's philosophic purpose of making the individual spirit one with the universal spirit.Karate on the other hand, (at least the kind taught at our YMCA) is essentially physical training. A Christians weapons are not carnal, but Karate is not just a weapon. It is a goal orientated activity to build character and accomplishment. There is sparring but only to build confidence. I'll be honest about this issue. We had a recent situation for a couple of weeks, where my son who is average size for his age, was being bullied by two boys at school. One day one of these boys started jabbing him with a pencil. Well, after my son took control of this fellows arm and put him on hard on the ground, the problem ended. These youngsters don't pick on my son anymore.Is this Christlike behavior, like I want in my son? It's a hard issue for me. We fathers try to teach our sons to be meek like Christ, which I find means different things to men then it does women. One day the Holy Spirit will help my son understand meekness. Untill that day comes, I do not want my son being afraid to fight off bullies. Meekness is the strength not to fight. Fear only hinders a proper understanding of this.I am curious to see what others think...MC
Is this Christlike behavior, like I want in my son? It's a hard issue for me. We fathers try to teach our sons to be meek like Christ, which I find means different things to men then it does women. One day the Holy Spirit will help my son understand meekness. Untill that day comes, I do not want my son being afraid to fight off bullies. Meekness is the strength not to fight. Fear only hinders a proper understanding of this.We define meekness as weakness in todays society.This is how Webster defines it:1. "enduring injury with patience and without resentment"2. "deficient in spirit and courage"3. "not violent or strong"Jesus was strong in spirit, and He "grew in stature", so I think we can eliminate #3. He was not deficient in spirit or courage, so we can eliminate #2."Enduring injury with patience and without resentment" seems to go along with Jesus teachings about how we are to deal with our fellow man. Jesus was very tender and loving when dealing with those who were genuinely seeking answers from Him.But was Jesus meek when He over turned the table and chased out the money changers? Was Jesus meek when He confronted the religious leaders? Was Paul meek when he wrote a looong scathing letter to the Corinthians?But see, when it came to people mistreating Christ, He "endured injury with patience and without resentment".However, when it came to His Father, His Father's house, and His Father's people... Jesus was anything but meek. He was down right confrontational.No where in the Word of God does it suggest to me that if someone breaks into my house and threatens my family that I should just sit back and let them do what they want to my wife, or harm my children.In fact, I would say that a man who does not protect his family is no man at all.Krispy
However, when it came to His Father, His Father's house, and His Father's people... Jesus was anything but meek. He was down right confrontational.Nowhere in the Word of God does it suggest to me that if someone breaks into my house and threatens my family that I should just sit back and let them do what they want to my wife, or harm my children.Interesting observation on the subject of defending ones family, Krispy K. Makes sense to this man.MC
Krispy wrote:"I dont believe we should be the world's police force, but when we know citizens are being raped and murdered by their "leaders" (such as what was happening in Iraq) then we need to do something. If we dont, then we are partakers of that evil."Problem is we didn't go to Iraq to protect the people there. We obsensibly went there to protect ourselves from Weapons of Mass Distruction that didn't exist. Phantom. And all the while the US oil companies were making plans for when the Iraqi oil fields are put up for sale by the new Iraqi government. (They were in on the deal!)There is a huge difference between protecting yourself and family and preparing for war. Albert Einstein said it best: "You cannot simultaneously prevent and prepare for war." The very act of building up our military means that it is going to be used. We could never justify spending 42% of every tax dollar on the military if all they did was train for defending the US against another country invading us. We've got the National Guard for that.I certainly understand the use of nonlethal force to prevent a greater injury to yourself or family or even a stranger. I had to do this once in Lesotho. A fellow PC volunteer (female, not girl friend) and I were walking home fairly late and were accosted by a man with a gun. Wanted money that we didn't have. Told me to go home and get some and he would wait there with the woman friend of mine. I had to take his gun away. (Luckily I was a pretty good wrestler in High School.)But to plan for, prepare for, and contemplate using lethal force against others when there is no immediate threat is unChristian. Standing armies are unChristian; they represent violence and a threat to others and they are currently being used in Iraq for evil purposes. well over 100,000 innocent women children and men have been killed because of George Bush. Did you see the quote:"God told me to smite Osama bin Ladin, so I invaded Afghanistan. Then He told me to smite Saddam Hussein, so I invaded Iraq." President George W. Bush in a recent speech to the Palestinians.This man is a Puritan. He dodged the military himself but sends people who signed up for the national guard as "weekend warriors" to war. (Not what they signed up for.)Christ showed the complete futility of violence on the Cross.Bubbaguy
Bubba, you wascally wabbit!Maybe a conversation about war should branch into it's own thread...Pij, I hope we are answering your questions about Christian Yoga...do you see how the practice of Yoga in our churches can lead to the military invasion of other countries? :-o MC
We already said that doing Yoga even apart from the religious garb was dangerous... is this not any different? Perhaps you could post something about this.I'm glad you asked. There've been plenty of times in the past when I've had my seemingly contradictory views challenged and found that I could not explain away my hypocrisy...so I changed my thinking. Yoga/Martial Arts has been carefully studied by me and here's the difference in MY eyes.The "benefits" of Yoga (stretching, toning, etc.) are easily achieved in any number of other ways.The "benefits" of Martial arts, (self defense), are not.There's absolutely no reason to do Yoga without the mysticism and indeed, it is very hard TO do Yoga without all that garbage...the very motions of the art are seeded in eastern religions.Martial arts is a different matter. No other fighting style one can learn for self defense (namely boxing or street fighting) is as adept at handling diverse situations where one might find a need for defense.Finally, Martial arts comes from literally THOUSANDS of different sources and training. It is disingenuous to think/believe that they all must lead back to and/or involve some level of mysticism. That is wholly untrue of the forms I've studied. One of them (Penjit Salat) is wholly about destruction and is completely incompatable with the pacifist nature of Eastern relgions.Now on to your next, related question:Also, on another note, is it right for Christians to learn combat?Nowhere in scripture do I see where Christians are called to be pacifists when they need to defend their lives and their family from an evil intruder. As others have already pointed out to you, there are plenty of martial/warfare Christians in the Bible. I don't call or train anyone to fight for fighting's sake, but it is my training that gives me peace of mind regarding my family at night. Not a dog..not a gun...not a lock on the door, but my ability to assess an enemy and deal with them as violently or passively as I choose.The choice is mine...but such a choice does not belong to everyone due to lack of training. I see nothing wrong with HAVING the choice. If I ever have to make that choice (and in more than 20 years of training, I never have), then the time for judgement (right or wrong) will come.
In fact, I would say that a man who does not protect his family is no man at all.I love you. :-)I will take that one step further, even and state the same of a man who does absolutely NOTHING in advance to protect his family should something bad like that ever happen. Whether it be buying a gun, a bunch of trained dogs, a super alarm system...or training one's body for combat. In this world, you need to think about these things AHEAD of time...not sit back and hope it never happens to you. Cuz I'll be damned if someone's going to break into my home to hurt my daughter while I think "I wish I had the means of stopping this."
I love you. I love you too, sweety... kiss kiss... blekkk!!Krispy
Problem is we didn't go to Iraq to protect the people there. We obsensibly went there to protect ourselves from Weapons of Mass Distruction that didn't exist. Phantom. And all the while the US oil companies were making plans for when the Iraqi oil fields are put up for sale by the new Iraqi government. (They were in on the deal!)There is a huge difference between protecting yourself and family and preparing for war. Albert Einstein said it best: "You cannot simultaneously prevent and prepare for war." The very act of building up our military means that it is going to be used. We could never justify spending 42% of every tax dollar on the military if all they did was train for defending the US against another country invading us. We've got the National Guard for that.I certainly understand the use of nonlethal force to prevent a greater injury to yourself or family or even a stranger. I had to do this once in Lesotho. A fellow PC volunteer (female, not girl friend) and I were walking home fairly late and were accosted by a man with a gun. Wanted money that we didn't have. Told me to go home and get some and he would wait there with the woman friend of mine. I had to take his gun away. (Luckily I was a pretty good wrestler in High School.)But to plan for, prepare for, and contemplate using lethal force against others when there is no immediate threat is unChristian. Standing armies are unChristian; they represent violence and a threat to others and they are currently being used in Iraq for evil purposes. well over 100,000 innocent women children and men have been killed because of George Bush. Did you see the quote:"God told me to smite Osama bin Ladin, so I invaded Afghanistan. Then He told me to smite Saddam Hussein, so I invaded Iraq." President George W. Bush in a recent speech to the Palestinians.This man is a Puritan. He dodged the military himself but sends people who signed up for the national guard as "weekend warriors" to war. (Not what they signed up for.)Christ showed the complete futility of violence on the Cross.BubbaguyBubbaguy... I dont mean any disrespect here... but blah blah blah... I'm not going to debate this with you. You're making statements as tho they were facts, and you supply no credible evidence for any of your claims.Somehow we went from yoga to American oil companies supposedly stealing oil from Iraq (which if you check the gas prices lately... it's obviously not happening!) to rediculous "quotes" from GW... with no sources.C'mon... lets not go there, ok? Do it as a favor for me, because I'm gonna have a hard time biting my tongue, and I would really like to keep this on a more civil tone.Krispy
but sends people who signed up for the national guard as "weekend warriors" to war. (Not what they signed up for.)BTW, do you even know anything about the military? When you sign up for the National Guard you are very well informed of what your terms of service are... and it includes full time duty and combat. If someone was foolish enough to sign up without taking that part seriously, and planning appropriately for it... thats their problem.I was in the Marines for 8 years... I think I know a little bit more about it.Krispy
Krispy, Here's the link to the article with the Bush quote.http://www.counterpunch.org/leupp03262005.htmlThe author is Gary Leupp, Professor of History at Tufts University, and Adjunct Professor of Comparative Religion.I didn't bring this topic up, you did. I was planning to comment on the Yoga line when all of a sudden the subject changed to war.US oil companies do have plans to acquire Iraq's oil fields they were documented in secret meetings before the war actually started. The insurgents blowing up oil rigs and pipelines have prevented them from executing their plans.Here's the link on this http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/programmes/newsnight/4354269.stmLastly, you said "I dont mean any disrespect here... but blah blah blah."Is this meant to be something to counter what I said? If so, you really nailed it. Bubbaguy
everyone seems to be into yoga these days, why can't we just go back to hitting the weights, running, rugby...like me :-P
As she did the Holy Spirit opened her eyes to the spiritual realm & she started to see demonic figures doing all types of vile & disgusting acts to all these people, who were engrossed in there yoga & meditation.That is intense and scary! I know for a fact that meditation is something that the devil is using powerfully to captive many minds and spirits. I once handed out tracts and was praying for every single person that went into an public library to hear an guru talk about meditation and Jesus. I made the flyer say "Who is the real Jesus?" There was alot of spiritual warfare and at the end of the night I went to the back of the building and layed hands on it and prayed. I knew the devil was doing his work and I was praying against it. I do these type of stretches at home and at the gym, also but usually I am praying or thanking God that my body still bends and moves quite nicely :)I am 25 and I am starting to thank God for the same thing :-P I think some of the streches are fine but I am getting abit worried about the whole class atmosphere and the teachers that lead the people into these disciplines. I will check out the priasemoves website (when I can, the internet is mostly down here :-( ) sounds interesting Chanin. I do think there are many great alternatives for Christians to things like this. I personally love to keep in shape and strech.I heard that certain positions in yoga are ones that are used to call up various evil spirits. Don't know if that is true but it was from a fairly believable source.Can anyone verify this?Can you imagine the Apostles organizing something like this?I know :-o I think what worries me most is that the Church is involved with this. We as (the church) the body of Christ can do things to keep ourselves in shape. Personally if I neglect my body and don't eat then I am very dull mentally and ultimately spiritually. I think there is a great benefit in staying in shape. Imagine Jesus working His whole life with wood and then also traveling and walking all over Israel, that must keep you in good shape!
oh boy...here we go with that oil talk...
Bubbaguy... In that article this gentleman says:You thought, of course, that I'd conclude by making some comparison between these two great men and our conquering president, whom as we know told the Palestinians, "God told me to smite Osama bin Ladin, so I invaded Afghanistan. Then He told me to smite Saddam Hussein, so I invaded Iraq."I dont know that... what is his source? He doesnt give any.You're a Quaker, and as such you believe in the pacifist view point. Therefore you and I will never agree on this. I refuse to discuss the merits of this war with someone of your view point because it is an exercise in futility.Again, documentation from "secret" meetings, as you put it, is hardly proof. Where? When? Who? Why?To end this conversation, the oil companies are pushing to drill in Alaska. My personal opinion is that we absolutely should... as well as seek out alternative fuel options. Naturally the oil companies are motivated by money, and I am not defending them in the least. In fact, I despise them. Yet, here we are... we need oil. But I believe we need to cut out our dependence on oil from Arab countries. These folks are rich because of our dependence, and they turn around and kick us in the teeth. I say lets cut them off, drill our own resources, and let them choke on their own oil.The fact is, the people of Iraq were serverly oppressed by Saddam Hussein. That cant be denied. And even on ABC last night they said that 2 out 3 Iraqi's are happy with the changes that have been made there, and 90% of Iraqi's say that they are better off now than they were 2 years ago. My source is ABC news, which has been no friend to Bush, and have not been in favor of the war.What is your source for your claim that 100,000 innocent women and children in Iraq were killed by the US? If this was so, the networks and CNN would have been all over that... as well as the Kerry campaign. But so far, the only people spouting this garbage are leftist groups that oppose anything that the US does as long as Bush is president. Oh... and that bastian of infinite wisdom, Michael Moore. Hardly a reliable source.I'm done talking about this. If you want to discuss if more, you'll be talking to the air so far as I am concerned.Krispy
here's the link on civilian deaths in Iraq.http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A7967-2004Oct28.htmlHere's an excellent article about oil.http://www.oriononline.org/pages/om/05-2om/McKibben.htmlhappy reading :-) :-) Bub
Most of that Washington Post article disputed the 100,000 dead stats.Orion Magazine? Are you going to link me to Michael Moore's website next?Please... if you want to discuss this with other folks on here, start another thread. This one has been most succesfully hi-jacked.Let's try to get back to yoga, martial arts, and self-defense. Discuss your slant on politics on another thread, please.Krispy
Hey Bubba... lets agree not to discuss this issue between us, ok? I don't think I can discuss it without getting my dander up because I my opinions are so strong. You and I are on different sides of a canyon on this one, and there probably is no way to bridge it. And to be honest, I'm more concerned about your disbelief in the Word of God than I am your politics... so lets just stick to that subject. Alright?Krispy
Well, this has gotten interesting.First of all, I can't ask Joshua and I can't ask David because they are dead, and they were not Christians, but lived in a time when God used the sword to accomplish his purposes. It is good that God no longer does that, or else we ought to brandish our rifles and go on a fourth crusade.However, we no longer live in a time when the sword is our strength, but rather, the Word of God is our sword, and a double-edged sword at that.Hmmm, I understand this is a very complicated topic. For instance, I believe with absolute certainty that WWII was used by God to rid the world of Hitler and that great evil.Now, Jesus had a righteous zeal for the house of God and violently cleansed the temple, and I believe in some cases, this is what needs to be done (WWII?), but I am certain Jesus did not physically train for such confrontations, nor did he advise his disciples to prepare themselves for such action... like, "Get ready to fight, fellas" or "Go buy weapons and learn how to use them". Rather, he referred to them as sheep among wolves. The only time he told them they needed swords was in the brief time when he was in the grave.Jesus also said that if His Kingdom was of this world then His followers would fight.So, from my point of view, to train oneself to fight it a little strange for Christians. It seems to me the Christian way of things is to turn the other cheek and let God avenge, for "Vengeance is mine, sayeth the Lord."This is difficult. What say you?I wanted to add something else to this as well:The world encourages people to stand up for themselves (self-esteem) and not to put up with this or that, because you have "rights" and so forth. But a Christian is to deny himself/herself, and take up their cross. We are to give up our rights and do the very thing the world does not understand: forgive. Repay evil with good.For our confidence is not in the flesh, in ourselves, but in Christ. Say goodbye to self-esteem and embrace humility. Then we will be like Jesus in a wicked world. He was meek and mild, but He was strong in character, fierce in zeal, and a mighty warrior in the spirit.
Turn the other cheek, does not, in any way imply that I am to leave my front door open for robbers, thieves and murders.Or that if they come into my house and assault me or my wife or two year old daughter, I should meekly submit.That kind of inaction would be foolishness, and not even close to what God intended.Jesus telling His disciples to buy swords is an indication of only one thing: God saying "Be prepared to defend yourselves...JUST IN CASE." to our knowledge they didn't have to use those swords, but you can not deny that He had them forearm and be prepared.
Thank God some serious Christians do join the military and train in the art of combat. If they didnt, I wouldnt be a Christian today. I was heavily witnessed to by several Christians while in the Marine Corp... and even tho I made fun of them and cussed them... I still prayed like crazy when things got hot in Gulf War I. There are no atheists foxholes.Anyway, I dont agree that we should turn the cheek no matter what the circumstances. The scriptures seem to imply that yes... turn the other cheek when persecuted for His sake. But to turn the other cheek and allow someone to kill and destroy your family is ungodly. If someone steals from me personally... I'm a very forgiving person now, and I have been stolen from, and I forgave that person. But let someone steal from my wife and kids... and you'll come to find out that it wont be tolerated.But if my family were persecuted because we are believers, then turning the other cheek would be the scriptural thing to do. But the Bible puts a real emphasis on "for my sake".Matt 5:11 "Blessed are ye, when men shall revile you, and persecute you, and shall say all manner of evil against you falsely, for my sake."Matt 10:18 "And ye shall be brought before governors and kings for my sake, for a testimony against them and the Gentiles."Matt 10:39: He that findeth his life shall lose it: and he that loseth his life for my sake, shall find it.Matt 16:25: For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: and whosoever will lose his life for my sake, shall find it.Mark 8:35: For whosoever will save his life shall lose it; but whosoever shall lose his life for my sake, and the gospel's, the same shall save it.Mark 10:29: And Jesus answered and said, Verily I say unto you, There is no man that hath left house, or brethren, or sisters, or father, or mother, or wife, or children, or lands, for my sake, and the gospel's...Mark 13:9: But take heed to yourselves: for they shall deliver you up to councils; and in the synagogues ye shall be beaten: and ye shall be brought before rulers and kings for my sake, for a testimony against them.Luke 9:24 For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: but whosoever will lose his life for my sake, the same shall save it.John 13:38: Jesus answered him, Wilt thou lay down thy life for my sake? Verily, verily, I say unto thee, The cock shall not crow, till thou hast denied me thrice.Krispy
What happened to yoga?
Eli wrote:"For instance, I believe with absolute certainty that WWII was used by God to rid the world of Hitler and that great evil."This is a mistake. WWII came about because of the terrible sanctions placed upon Germany after world war one. And world war one came about because of WHat? Far as I can tell it was because a bunch of standing armies in Europe had nothing to do. and their leaders percieved threat from other armies, so they fought. Hitler arose because of Germany's poverty and their shame. In other words the evil of war brought about more evil of war. This will ever be so until mankind hammers the swords into plowshares.Bub
Forgive me Bubbaguy but that's must more of the typical blame-shifting of this age.The war happened because of their poverty?That's no excuse. People are poor and starving in this country. You can't blame them grabbing a gun and shooting up a liquor store on thier condition... the blame lies wholly with the evil in that person's heart.If the people of Germany were suffering, then it was up to them to work to make their conditions better or live out the punishment (sanctions) the world was imposing for the first war they caused. Not take up arms and cause the deaths of millions in an attempt to make THEIR OWN LIVES "better."World War II happened because evil people (read everyone ) listened to an evil man.
Hitler had two goals in WWII ... world domination, and the elimination of the Jewish population. Period. Hitler started that war. While true, his rise to power was in large part do the economic whoas of Germany in the Depression era, the responsibility has to be put back on the shoulders of the German people... who thought more with their pockets instead of moral compass. Hitler made no secret of his hatred and plans for the Jews. But the German people ignored it because he put money in their wallets.As far as WWI is concerned, if you think the war started because armies were standing around, and perceived a threat that wasnt there... you have a very poor understanding of history.The misinformation spouted on this website just amazes me sometimes.Krispy
What happened to yoga?He and Boo Boo were recently sighted stealing a picnic basket in Jellystone National Park.Oohhhhh, you meant Yoga?! MC
It figures someone would bring godless, satanic and wordly cartoons into this discussion!Krispy(wink, wink)
What happened to yoga?I think its pretty silly how a good talk about a subject can be lead to what it has as of now. The purpose of these forums are to have edifying logical conversations on topics and once they become unuseful to that manner then there will not be a need for them to exist. Also topics such as WWII are ok to talk about but really the main motive of discussions on the SI forums is towards the audio sermon speakers and the bible! Please try and keep conversation to this extent.
Hmmm... I'm still not convinced either way.First of all,Jesus telling His disciples to buy swords is an indication of only one thing: God saying "Be prepared to defend yourselves...JUST IN CASE." to our knowledge they didn't have to use those swords, but you can not deny that He had them forearm and be prepared.That sounds ridiculous to me. Jesus did not mean that. Honestly, a man full of the Holy Ghost doesn't need to be bothered with swords and shields... he has armor that the world doesn't know about!His life doesn't mean anything... "To live is Christ and to die is gain."Hmmm...I agree apathy is non-Christian... but I'm stuck at the martial arts part. I honestly cannot see Christians training like that for the glory of God. One, it's got roots in eastern religion, and two, how does that serve "Thy kingdom come, Thy will be done?"The Bible tells us to make God our refuge and to trust in Him for our security. Training to defend yourself is a type of worldy security and I would argue that it shows that Christians are failing to trust God in that area."If a robber comes...""If a murderer strikes..."Leave it in God's hands, for His glory, and don't worry about stuff like that, but "trust in the Lord will all of your heart and lean not on your own understanding." This doesn't mean be stupid and careless but it DOES mean to trust.Just some thoughts. What say you?
I studied martial arts (Aikido) for about four years, but in the middle of that time, I came to saving and devout faith in Christ.I quit the art because I realized I was spending too much time there and not enough time with my family.I remember being approached by the self-elected "church piety officer" about my involvement with the martial arts - he wanted to know why I didn't trust God.If a pedophile breaks into my house to rape or abduct my little ones - do I intervene or do I pray? Turning the other cheek is what I do when someone attacks -ME- but I must also "do unto others" - and if I was being beaten to death or raped, I would certainly wish that my humble Christian brothers would do more for me than pray.It is right to turn the other cheek, and to trust God. One can study martial arts without violating these principles. There is nothing ungodly about being trained to defend. Dan/\\/\\/\\
What happened to yoga?Was considering these scriptures in regards to this:23“Everything is permissible”–but not everything is beneficial. “Everything is permissible”–but not everything is constructive. 24Nobody should seek his own good, but the good of others. 25Eat anything sold in the meat market without raising questions of conscience, 26for, “The earth is the Lord's, and everything in it.”[c] 27If some unbeliever invites you to a meal and you want to go, eat whatever is put before you without raising questions of conscience. 28But if anyone says to you, “This has been offered in sacrifice,” then do not eat it, both for the sake of the man who told you and for conscience' sake[d]– 29the other man's conscience, I mean, not yours. For why should my freedom be judged by another's conscience? 30If I take part in the meal with thankfulness, why am I denounced because of something I thank God for? 1 Cor 10:23-30In regards to Yoga is it bad, really? It is a practise associated with Eastern mysticism, so it has predominately been trashed as being of the devil. My point is, what is the difference between what Paul was speaking about here, the earth is the Lords and the fullness there of. It is an art of meditation:May the words of my mouth and the meditation of my heart be pleasing in your sight, O LORD, my Rock and my Redeemer. Psalm 19:14May my meditation be pleasing to him, as I rejoice in the LORD. Psalm 104:34Everything is sanctified by the word of God and with prayer. I do not practise Yoga, but if I did exactly the same things and focussed on the God who now dwells in me, would it be considered taboo?
Leave it in God's hands, for His glory, and don't worry about stuff like that, but "trust in the Lord will all of your heart and lean not on your own understanding." This doesn't mean be stupid and careless but it DOES mean to trust.This paragraph is a contradiction of itself. Somewhere in the middle of that contradiction is our meeting place...somewhere between "Trust the Lord..." and "That doesn't mean be stupid and careless."We, each of us have to judge for ourselves what constitutes being stupid and careless and/or not trusting in the Lord. Is not having locks on your doors stupid and careless? Is having a gun in your home not trusting in the Lord?what about knowing how to make a fist? Too much knowledge and not enough trust? Well what about knowing how to make a fist properly? Is that too much training?My point in all this is that there's a place in there...somewhere between trust and carelessness that crosses a boundary. Where is that point?That's for you to decide...for you.I'll tell you that as far as turning the other cheek goes, I don't at all accept that to mean that chrsitians shouldn't defend their lives mono e mono against an aggressor. By the time my now two year old daughter is ten, She'll know, through me, how to kill a full grown man, and woe betide the fool who tries to take advantage of her in a dark alley. Having the knowledge is not a crime. How she may or may not use it can be. Being trained in martial arts means being trained to subdue an opponent so you don't HAVE TO kill them.If ever I feel any tugs from the Spirit regarding my training or the training of my kids, I'll be sure to report bac here and let you know. ;-)
All my point is:We are discussing the possibilites of murderers and rapists attacking us. To trust God is to trust that they WON'T, and if they do, we can trust that the Lord allowed it.I believe the reasons Christians lock their doors is because they haven't learned to trust God fully. If we TRULY trusted in his protection and care, there would be no need. I guess that's where Christian growth comes in, and people are in different places, and need to learn to trust. Think about it for a second."The Lord will keep you from harm - he will watch over your life; the Lord will watch over your coming and going both now and forevermore." - Psalm 121:7-8Do you believe it?
Anything can be taken to extremes and I wonder if that isn't exactly what you're trying to do.My belief in God's protection and provision in my life I will GUARANTEE YOU exceeds your wildest dreams. The beliefs I hold (one in particular) due to my faith in God's promises have everything to do with my trusting Him for my life...but my wife and daughter, to my knowledge have no such provision. I wouldn't be any kind of husband or father worth having if I didn't see to their needs.Scripture tells us that a man who doesn't provide for his family is WORSE than an infidel. That means more than just putting food in their mouth. It means clothes on their backs, a roof over their heads and yes, basic saftey and protection. The type of radical thinking you propose is what sees fringe Christians dying outside hospitals because they believe if it is the Lord's will that they be healed they will be, miraculously and without medicine.
A life of faith is not rational, it is not worldly, it is not by the standards of this world. It is by faith, not by sight.A life of faith IS radical. Is it not?
A life of faith, like anything else, can be taken to extremes. Do you have faith in God to keep you warm in a blizzard and so cast off your winter clothes? Do you have faith in God to provide mana from heaven and so quit your job since you do not need money to eat?How far do you... you personally take your faith? You apparently think it should be a matter of faith to not prepare yourself and your family for emergencies. Do you have a savings account? Do you have locks on your doors? Do you have medical insurance or insurance on your house? Do you take medicine for anything that ails you, ever?Where do you draw the line?
hey, as far as taking medicine goes, the word says: take every precaution to heal yourself lest you be brother with suicide. i think it was in the book of hebrews... God fully expects us to be rational. keep hygiene, keep healthy, keep yourself in good shape, because the church itself is your body, dont you forget that. if you smoke, you're coating the place the Holy Spirit resides with smoke and tar, and most importantly, the bible says if a man does not work he does not eat, if you're going to fast with the motive of seeing breakthrough thats bifferent but dont force yourself into a place of starvation, without Gods help where it could have been avoided, thats irresponsible, and the bible speaks often of blessings that come with responsibility, for goodness sakes, if you are not responsible with what you have in the first place why should God bless you further?no, take every precaution to survive, but when you are doing things that are beyond human ability, where you need to totally and completely have your heart mind and spirit resting in God to be able to expand in his blessings in your life, thats when you're truly being faithful. God sent his sone that we may have life and in abundance, notlack, sodont force youself into that position, i dare say you are testing God when you do that.nothing good comes of living in the extreme, infact i lived there up until the past few months, everything with me was one extreme or the next and i got nowhere, only once there is a balance of everything will you get somewhere, learn from someone who has had to learn it the hard way. sorry if this comes across is harsh but its a challenge for you to get into teh word more and prove me incorrect if you can, i just wish i could remember the exact verses to back up all i just said, but they're in my bedroom at home on my walls.besides, and i mean all due respect here but you read right through proverbs and you tell me it doesnt say: he who hates the correction of the wise is a fool. this is just a very real challenge to you to re-draw your conclusions. and if you dont know ask. there are so many brothers and sisters here just waiting to help you, because we dont know you as a person, but we already love you like the family in Christ that you aremuch love, from your sister in Christ Arbustum.
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