Menu

Completely Sanctified

M
murrcolr

Can we be completely sanctified this side of heaven, what should we expect in this life, will we always be in a process of sanctification?

What should we expect in this life, will always be in the process of sanctification, will we ever be completely sanctified? As far as I can see the goal we should be seeking is seeing Christ face to face and as Paul says, I press toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus. Phil 3:14 what will happen at that time? The Savior, the Lord Jesus Christ: shall change our vile body, so it may be fashioned like unto his glorious body Phil 3:20-21.

So we have established something that until we see our Savior, Jesus Christ we will always have our vile body, so we can’t expect in this life to be rid of that body.

Now may the God of peace himself sanctify you completely, and may your whole spirit and soul and body be kept blameless at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ. 1 Thess 5:23

So here we find out what we can expect, that God will sanctify us completely, and our whole being spirit and soul and body be kept blameless. Let me try and trigger some of your thoughts; does that mean there is an end to the process of sanctification this side of heaven? Can we truly be sanctified completely this side of heaven? Can we be kept blameless this side of heaven? Can our vile body as Paul said earlier be sanctified completely and kept blameless?

This scripture says we can be completely sanctified and kept blameless this side of heaven, but let’s look at others, just so you can get a grasp that this is the will of God, your sanctification. 1 Thess 4:3

So that he may establish your hearts blameless in holiness before our God and Father, at the coming of our Lord Jesus with all his saints. 1 Thessalonians 3:13

Now to him who is able to keep you from stumbling and to present you blameless before the presence of his glory with great joy. Jude 1:24

He has now reconciled in his body of flesh by his death, in order to present you holy and blameless and above reproach before him Colossians 1:22

That you may be blameless and innocent, children of God without blemish in the midst of a crooked and twisted generation, among whom you shine as lights in the world, holding fast to the word of life, so that in the day of Christ I may be proud that I did not run in vain or labor in vain. Philippians 2:15-16

He has now reconciled in his body of flesh by his death, in order to present you holy and blameless and above reproach before him Colossians 1:22

So that you may approve what is excellent, and so be pure and blameless for the day of Christ Philippians 1:10

I posted all the scriptures so that you can have no doubt in your mind, that this is God’s will for your life your sanctification, to keep your whole being Spirit, Soul and Body blameless, Holy and sanctified completely at the time of his coming. Not after his coming but before his coming so that you can presented to him.

M
murrcolr

Complete Sanctification is not our work.

Now to him who is able to keep you from stumbling and to present you blameless before the presence of his glory with great joy. Jude 1:24

We attain Complete Sanctification through the death of Christ, by faith.

He has now reconciled in his body of flesh by his death, in order to present you holy and blameless and above reproach before him Colossians 1:22

But once we attain Complete Sanctification we must walk in it, it must be practical; it must show in our lives and be evident to this world.

That you may be blameless and innocent, children of God without blemish in the midst of a crooked and twisted generation, among whom you shine as lights in the world, holding fast to the word of life, so that in the day of Christ I may be proud that I did not run in vain or labor in vain. Philippians 2:15-16

We need to see the need in our life to sanctified we must see this is the will of God, your sanctification. 1 Thess 4:3. We must ask ourselves this question is our Christian life uniform, what I mean, do we live like an angel on the outside world, but while at home live like a devil? At home you are what you really are. I question whether any man is much better than he is thought of by his wife and family, for they, after all, see the most of us, and know the truth about us. We must live uniform holy life at home, and while we are outside.

Because without holiness, no man shall see the Lord;" that is to say, no man can have communion with God in this life, and no man can expect to live with God in the life to come, without holiness. Do we expect to take the Lord of love and mercy with us to the place of sin? It is enough for him to bear with our double life on earth; shall he have it flung in his face in heaven? What has an unholy life in common with the golden streets of heaven?

When we look at the depth of Complete Sanctification and Holiness we can think it’s impossible, as we think that we will always stumble and we will always sin. But look at what scripture says ‘He is able to keep you from stumbling’ Christ can do it; he can do it for you.

There is no corruption too strong for him to overcome; there is no habit too firm for him to break. He can turn the lion to a lamb. Trust him to save you, and he will do it, whoever you are, and whatever your past life may have been. "He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved;"””that is, he shall be saved from his sins, and delivered from his wickedness; he shall be made a new man in Christ Jesus by the power of the Spirit, received through the medium of his faith.

S
Sree

I agree with most of the things you say. But complete sanctification will not happen until we see Jesus face to face. Only when we see him we will be like him, we will be perfect. Till then we cannot be perfect.

The problem with your first post is you missed the difference between blameless and complete sanctification (Perfection). Most of the verses that you quoted are for being blameless. Yes we are called to be blameless and we can achieve it everyday starting from today if we are truly born again.

Noah was found blameless even before any covenant was made, how was it possible? So to be blameless means what I know I am complete in it. If I tell my 1 year old daughter not to do touch anything unclean and she does not touch them then she is blameless. The one commandment that I gave her, she followed blamelessly. But there can be many things in which she did not do right. But what she knows she followed. Same way we all receive light from God about our sinful flesh, based on the light that each of us have, we are called to be found blameless. The more God shows his light in our life, the more we come to know about our sins and we purify our self. This is what it means to peruse sanctification. Only such people will be able to see God.

Apostle Paul lived a blameless life on earth after his conversion. His conscience was always clear before man and God but he himself says in 1 Cor 4 that this did not make him righteous, because the one who is going to judge him is God. Just like how I know mistakes that my daughter has made, God also knows the unconscious sins of Paul. He will bring light into those sins gradually. Meanwhile Paul makes sure his conscious is clean without any conscious sins before God and man.

R
roadsign

Does that mean there is an end to the process of sanctification this side of heaven?


What is the definition of "sanctification”? That is a tricky question. Theologian, Ron Bailey sees "sanctification” as the act of being set apart for holy use ”“ like the vessels in the OT ritual law which were set apart for holy use ”“ as opposed to common use. Can people be partially set apart?

Another thought to consider:
What does pure/blameless mean from the perspective of Law?
What does it mean from the perspective of Grace (and sanctification)?

M
murrcolr

Quote: I agree with most of the things you say. But complete sanctification will not happen until we see Jesus face to face. Only when we see him we will be like him, we will be perfect. Till then we cannot be perfect.

Now may the God of peace himself sanctify you completely, and may your whole spirit and soul and body be kept blameless at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ. 1 Thess 5:23

Adam Clarke Commentary: The apostle prays that this compound being, in all its parts, powers, and faculties, which he terms ὁλοκληρον , their whole, comprehending all parts, everything that constitutes man and manhood, may be sanctified and preserved blameless till the coming of Christ; hence we learn,

1.That body, soul, and spirit are debased and polluted by sin.

2.That each is capable of being sanctified, consecrated in all its powers to God, and made holy.


3.That the whole man is to be preserved to the coming of Christ, that body, soul, and spirit may be then glorified forever with him.

4.That in this state the whole man may be so sanctified so as to be preserved blameless till the coming of Christ. And thus we learn that the sanctification is not to take place in, at, or after death.

----------

Quote: The problem with your first post is you missed the difference between blameless and complete sanctification (Perfection).

Complete meaning the whole man may is sanctified so it’s preserved blameless till the coming of Christ. Let me word it differently the whole man is preserved blameless because it has been sanctified, we cannot and should not separate the two.

Quote: Most of the verses that you quoted are for being blameless. Yes we are called to be blameless and we can achieve it everyday starting from today if we are truly born again.

Yes because you cannot separate the two, ‘so that he may establish your hearts blameless in holiness before our God and Father, at the coming of our Lord Jesus with all his saints’ 1 Thess 3:13. We are blameless because we are Holy, we are blameless because you have been sanctified, separated and made free from sin and become servants to God and have fruit unto holiness Rom 6:23

Quote: What is the definition of "sanctification”?

The word sanctify has two meanings: it signifies to consecrate, to separate from an earthly and common use, and to devote or dedicate to God and His service. It also signifies to make holy or pure.

1."To make sacred or holy, to set apart in a holy or religious use.

2.To make free from sin, to cleanse from moral corruption and pollution, to purify. (John17 :17). "Especially (Theol.) the act of God's grace by which the affections of men are purified from sin and the world, and exalted to a supreme love to God." -- Webster's Dictionary.

S
sermonindex

Bro Colin,

I know that you and I would agree that the Scriptures cannot be broken, meaning Scripture cannot contradict itself. I would ask you to consider the following Scriptures and bear also in mind the tense as it is written.


So also the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption, it is raised in incorruption; it is sown in dishonor, it is raised in glory; it is sown in weakness, it is raised in power; it is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body. And so it is written, "The first man, Adam, became a living soul," the last Adam was a life-giving Spirit. But not the spiritual first, but the natural; afterward the spiritual. The first man was out of earth, earthy; the second Man was the Lord from Heaven. Such the earthy man, such also the earthy ones. And such the heavenly Man, such also the heavenly ones. And according as we bore the image of the earthy man, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly Man. And I say this, brothers, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, nor does corruption inherit incorruption. Behold, I speak a mystery to you; we shall not all fall asleep, but we shall all be changed; in a moment, in a glance of an eye, at the last trumpet. For a trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall all be changed. For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
(1Co 15:42-53)

that the creation itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God. And we know that the whole creation groans and travails in pain together until now. And not only so, but ourselves also, who have the firstfruit of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, awaiting adoption, the redemption of our body.
(Rom 8:21-23)

I find then a law: when I will to do the right, evil is present with me. For I delight in the Law of God according to the inward man; but I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin being in my members.
(Rom 7:21-23)


M
murrcolr

Quote: I know that you and I would agree that the Scriptures cannot be broken, meaning Scripture cannot contradict itself. I would ask you to consider the following Scriptures and bear also in mind the tense as it is.

Amen I agree with you 100% scripture cannot contradict itself, but our body is to be set apart and kept as a holy thing for the Lord, even though it has not been glorified. So we must balance the scriptures you put forth with those below.

I am speaking in human terms, because of your natural limitations. For just as you once presented your members as slaves to impurity and to lawlessness leading to more lawlessness, so now present your members as slaves to righteousness leading to sanctification Romans 6:19

I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service Romans 12:1

The whole being Spirit Soul and Body is to be given to the Lord, and kept and used for Him.

S
sermonindex

Hi bro Colin,

Could you comment on the Scriptures I gave and how you see where they fit into your interpretation? .... bro Frank

M
murrcolr

Quote: Could you comment on the Scriptures I gave and how you see where they fit into your interpretation?

1Cor 15:42-53 Comments: When are born into this world we are born of Adam, his body was made out of the dust of the earth. What is formed of earth must live after in an earthly manner; it must be nourished and supported by the earth. The second man Christ is from heaven, what is from heaven is of a spiritual nature; and shall have no connection with earth. The resurrected body shall be of a heavenly nature, and not subject to decay or death. Our earthly body which is corrupt will not inherit incorruption; we are to get a heavenly body.

Rom 8:21-23 Comments: The redemption of our body or as Paul also says, I press toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus. Phil 3:14 what will happen at that time of attaining the high calling? The Savior, the Lord Jesus Christ: shall change our vile body, so it may be fashioned like unto his glorious body Phil 3:20-21.

Type 1.To make sacred or holy, to set apart in a holy or religious use

Type 2.To make free from sin, to cleanse from moral corruption and pollution, to purify.

The new birth is Holiness begun we are made Holy because we are set apart to God we are taken out of Adam and put into Christ (Type 1.sanctifcation), our inner man is born again of the incorruptible seed which is free from sin 1Peter 1:23 ( Type 2.sanctifcation). Conversion makes of a sinner a child of God, but we are full of ignorance and weakness, without any conception of what the whole-hearted devotion God asks of us.

Rom 7:21-23 Comments: The Christian experience post conversion - I strongly identify with Paul’s burden of both wanting to do what is right and please God and live a Holy life only to find something evil within me that always seems to be able to defeat me, what is it I find in me Sin.

As we see ours failures through striving in our own strength, we must surrender our self to Christ anew confessing and giving up all that is of self and sin, yielding our self wholly to Christ and His service, once we believe it we receive it a new power to live his life by the faith of the Son of God.

Yielding our self wholly to Christ and His service is (Type 1.sanctifcation), receiving a new power to live his life by the faith of the Son of God (Type 2.sanctifcation) having the heart cleansed by faith. The power of the Holy Spirit is exerted only through faith, and this faith is possible only when we are conscious of a need of cleansing from all inward tendencies to sin.

Complete sanctification your spirit is born again of the incorruptible seed, your heart (soul) is cleansed made pure by the Holy Spirit and your earthly body has been presented to God as a living sacrifice. (Type 1.sanctifcation) Romans 6:19, Romans 12:1

S
sermonindex

HI bro Colin,

Can you see how others would think differently given those Scriptures and others ( 1st John and so on) and can you further see that even if Paul is talking pre salvation in Romans 7 that there is also a post salvation application to be made. We have a corruptable body and we shall be raised in in-corruption, future tense. We know that the spirit is willing but the flesh is weak. We know that there is a tension between them and this requires us to have such a great dependency upon the Lord. There is a disease out there where people feel no pain. its called anhidrosis. Now you would imagine that this was a good thing, but in reality it turns out to be a nightmare. The body does not know it has a need to protects itself and suffers horrendous damage, especially when the person who has it is a child. This is analogous, I believe, of why Paul identifies a law of sin in our flesh. Because of that we never fail to recognise our need for Jesus and the need to come to Him. Here is an article of a child who has that disease. As you or anyone reads it, think about how we would be in matters of pride and aloofness and so on if we walked in sinless perfection http://www.nbcnews.com/id/6379795/ bro Frank

M
murrcolr

For this is thankworthy, if a man for conscience toward God endure grief, suffering wrongfully.

S
sermonindex

Bro Frank

It would be true of a man still operating from the flesh that he would become filled with pride, but those who walk in the Spirit have crucified the flesh, after God showing them just how foul their personal flesh is, which occurs prior to the true baptism. A man without sin, is without pride.

S
sermonindex

Hi sister, having been a Christian for 23 years, lived in three countries and met brothers and sisters from all over the world I have yet to meet the man without sin. In fact the only man I have ever met without sin, without pride who walks in perfection is the man Christ Jesus. It was a glorious life changing day the day I met Him and changed and continues to change everything.......... bro Frank

S
sermonindex

I am listening to this message by brother David Wilkerson, please find link below, it is very encouraging.

Jun. 6, 1999 - David Wilkerson - The Indwelling Power of the Holy Spirit

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OPFB2X3JAMY

Here is a great quote concerning sanctification:

Israel to Be Renewed for His Name’s Sake - Ezekiel 36:

22"Therefore say to the house of Israel, ‘Thus says the Lord GOD, "It is not for your sake, O house of Israel, that I am about to act, but for My holy name, which you have profaned among the nations where you went. 23"I will vindicate the holiness of My great name which has been profaned among the nations, which you have profaned in their midst. Then the nations will know that I am the LORD,” declares the Lord GOD, "when I prove Myself holy among you in their sight. 24"For I will take you from the nations, gather you from all the lands and bring you into your own land. 25"Then I will sprinkle clean water on you, and you will be clean; I will cleanse you from all your filthiness and from all your idols. 26"Moreover, I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit within you; and I will remove the heart of stone from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh. 27"I will put My Spirit within you and cause you to walk in My statutes, and you will be careful to observe My ordinances. 28"You will live in the land that I gave to your forefathers; so you will be My people, and I will be your God. 29"Moreover, I will save you from all your uncleanness; and I will call for the grain and multiply it, and I will not bring a famine on you. 30"I will multiply the fruit of the tree and the produce of the field, so that you will not receive again the disgrace of famine among the nations. 31"Then you will remember your evil ways and your deeds that were not good, and you will loathe yourselves in your own sight for your iniquities and your abominations. 32"I am not doing this for your sake,” declares the Lord GOD, "let it be known to you. Be ashamed and confounded for your ways, O house of Israel!”

S
sermonindex

I love this song:

Is Not This the Land of Beulah? | William Hunter

"I am dwelling on the mountain,
Where the golden sunlight gleams
O’er a land whose wondrous beauty
Far exceeds my fondest dreams;
Where the air is pure, ethereal
Laden with the breath of flow’rs,
They are blooming by the fountain,
'Neath the amaranthine bow’rs.

Refrain:
Is not this the land of Beulah?
Blessed, blessed land of light,
Where the flowers bloom forever,
And the sun is always bright!

I can see far down the mountain,
Where I wandered weary years,
Often hindered in my journey
By the ghosts of doubts and fears;
Broken vows and disappointments
Thickly sprinkled all the way,
But the Spirit led, unerring,
To the land I hold today.

I am drinking at the fountain,
Where I ever would abide;
For I’ve tasted life’s pure river,
And my soul is satisfied;
There’s no thirsting for life’s pleasures,
Nor adorning, rich and gay,
For I’ve found a richer treasure,
One that fadeth not away.

Tell me not of heavy crosses,
Nor of burdens hard to bear,
For I’ve found this great salvation
Makes each burden light appear;
And I love to follow Jesus,
Gladly counting all but dross,
Worldly honors all forsaking
For the glory of the cross.

Oh, the cross has wondrous glory!
Oft I’ve proved this to be true;
When I’m in the way so narrow,
I can see a pathway through;
And how sweetly Jesus whispers:
"Take the cross, thou need'st not fear,
For I’ve tried the way before thee,
And the glory lingers near." (End of Song)

"The origin of this song is not quite certain. Some sources attribute the lyrics to William Hunter, while others claim they were written by Harriet Warner Re Qua in 1882. As for the music, William B. Bradbury wrote a very similar tune for "Watchman, Tell Me,” and some sources indicate that John W. Dadman (or Dadmun) arranged it for this song" (http://library.timelesstruths.org/music/Is_Not_This_the_Land_of_Beulah/).

M
murrcolr

Quote: We know that there is a tension between them and this requires us to have such a great dependency upon the Lord.

Quote: Because of that we never fail to recognise our need for Jesus and the need to come to Him.

As I look at the wonderful promises of complete sanctification while in this earthly body and contemplate a life like this I cannot but come to the conclusion that it will require nothing but a complete and absolute surrender of my life, in essence it will be the death of me.

We all have quoted the bible verse below but have we thought just what it means when it says "I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me” and "the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God” Gal 2:20

Just recently as I was pressing in and seeking God in the matter of complete sanctification, I found within a stirring of a very deep humility. I have since then been thinking about humility and the greatest example of humility I can find is Christ. Christ humbled himself and was obedient unto death Phil 2:8.

Likewise the life we should live by faith as Christian’s is one of humility it is the place of entire dependence on God, but to get to that place we have to be willing to accept the cross, we must be willing to accept death as it is only in that death that we can live the life of Christ in this fleshly body and walk in victory over sin. We must get to the place that we can say like Paul said "I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me”

Now when I write about ‘complete sanctification’, I am promoting the death to self and sin, a life that lives in the flesh that is full of the life of Christ and is totally dependent on Christ. It is the place where we say ‘by myself I can do nothing, for I seek not to please myself but him who sent me’

Humility is the place of entire dependence on God, it is, from the very nature of things, the first duty and the highest virtue of the creature, and the root of every virtue.

Edit spelling and grammar

S
sermonindex

Hi sister, having been a Christian for 23 years, lived in three countries and met brothers and sisters from all over the world I have yet to meet the man without sin. In fact the only man I have ever met without sin, without pride who walks in perfection is the man Christ Jesus. It was a glorious life changing day the day I met Him and changed and continues to change everything.......... bro Frank

The church surely is in a desperate state and ripe for revival of holiness but I know that many are seeking the blessing and don't let it put them off that no-one is at present witnessing to it with the same power as in the past. Instead they read of other times when the acceptance and experience of the doctrine was the reason for the great revivals.

The mark of a holy man, is when his presence and words bring conviction of sin to the hearers even if he barely speaks a word, the Holy Presence is so powerfully there with him. I long to see this, in whoever manages to get there and I would travel to the ends of the earth if I hear of it.

M
murrcolr

Frank could you comment on these Scriptures I gave and how you see where they fit into your interpretation?

And hereby we know that we know him, if we keep his commandments. He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him; but whoso keepeth his word, in him verily hath the love of God been perfected. Hereby we know that we are in him: he that saith he abideth in him ought himself also to walk even as he walked. 1 John 2:3-6

M
murrcolr

Quote: The mark of a holy man, is when his presence and words bring conviction of sin to the hearers even if he barely speaks a word, the Holy Presence is so powerfully there with him.

I went to a meeting once in my home town before I was a believer, as my mother had invited me to come along, she had been telling me there people being healed; demons are being cast out, and people were turning to Christ, so out of interest I went along.

Since then to this day, I have never witnessed anything any way near what I saw that night. Even as the preacher was preaching devils were being cast out, there must have 50 people who went out for salvation when the altar call was given. He had such a presence of authority around him, but remained so calm.

My friend who came along with that night was deaf in one ear, he left that meeting healed, I can remember it as clear as anything the pure joy and wonderment he expressed at being healed as we walked home.

This preacher is dead now, but a couple of years ago I did some digging into his life and testimony he testifies to having received the fullness of the blessing.

Edit: Spelling and grammar

S
sermonindex

I will brother if you can answer me this question. Are you a liar who does not posses the truth? Or, do you walk in perfection, a man who does not sin? ......bro Frank

M
murrcolr

I do not know Christ perfectly, but I seek to know Christ perfectly.

S
sermonindex

Brother, I am sure you realize that you failed to answer the two questions. The answer you did give simply makes you a brother and another Christian on the journey of sanctification...........bro Frank

M
murrcolr

Quote: Brother, I am sure you realize that you failed to answer the two questions.

Frank - I did answer the questions, just take some time to read the scriptures I ask for your interpretation of and consider my answer.

Quote: The answer you did give simply makes you a brother and another Christian on the journey of sanctification.

Thanks, but let me ask you, have I ever said anything else than that, have I ever said that I hope to be sinlessly perfect in this life? No why? because I just don't see it in scripture.

However I do see that we can live far higher life than we live just now, look at the scripture that you don't want to answer "he that saith he abideth in him ought himself also to walk even as he walked."

That challenges me, but it also gives me hope as there is more, there is a deeper walk a closer walk. It's not a walk that's puffed up with pride as you assume, it's a walk "as he walked" a walk that's completely dependant on God and being led by the Spirit is that not how Christ walked?

Look at what scriptures say "walk by the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh" Gal 5:16 or "But put ye on the Lord Jesus Christ, and make not provision for the flesh, to fulfil the lusts thereof" Roms 13:14 It’s our union with the Holy Spirit that will empower us to overcome sin, to keep his commandments, to reveal Christ perfectly to us, to love Christ perfectly, to walk as Christ walked.

S
sermonindex

If what your espousing is that we can live better than we do now, then I am in agreement with you as would, I would imagine, every genuine saint. Nice to be in agreement brother.........bro Frank

S
sermonindex

Colin that is a wonderful story. I wonder if believers were sanctified through that brother as that is the sign of a holy man not just conversions, important and valuable as they are. We can only bring forth what we have ourselves which is why nobody is getting sanctified at present.

H
Heydave

Colin,

In your OP you said ///"This scripture says we can be completely sanctified and kept blameless this side of heaven, but let’s look at others, just so you can get a grasp that this is the will of God, your sanctification. 1 Thess 4:3"///

Also: ///"I posted all the scriptures so that you can have no doubt in your mind, that this is God’s will for your life your sanctification, to keep your whole being Spirit, Soul and Body blameless, Holy and sanctified completely at the time of his coming. Not after his coming but before his coming so that you can presented to him."///

The in your last post you say ///"Thanks, but let me ask you, have I ever said anything else than that (sanctification as a journey), have I ever said that I hope to be sinlessly perfect in this life? No why? because I just don't see it in scripture."///

Can't you see the contradiction in these and how you are bringing confusion? Maybe you are confused about the positional sanctification we have in Christ (we are set apart in Him) and the on going work of sanctification, which is the practical outworking of this in our daily lives (being conformed to his image).

What you said in your last post would be understood as 'progressive sanctification', which as brother Frank said all true saints would agree with. But you keep arguing about receiving some special blessing of 'entire' sanctification, which can only be understood to mean 'sinless'. Otherwise what does 'entire' mean??

Why don't you just press on to know the lord and continue to allow him to change you from glory to glory, being transformed into His image day by day and encourage others to do the same, rather than get caught up with all this teaching about 'entire sanctification', 'sinless perfection' and 'second (or 3rd or 4th) blessings' etc. There are a lot of strange teachings out there and aligning yourself with these will just lead to deception.

H
Heydave

Krautfrau said "Colin that is a wonderful story. I wonder if believers were sanctified through that brother as that is the sign of a holy man not just conversions, important and valuable as they are. We can only bring forth what we have ourselves which is why nobody is getting sanctified at present."

In the light of scripture this is pure deception. "a holy man" sanctifying others?? Where do we find that type of teaching in the NT? We are to look to Christ as our sanctifier, not any man. "nobody is getting sanctified at present". Really? what authority do you have to make that statement?

Brethren, we really do need to be careful and discerning about this type of teaching that has an appearance of spirituality, but leads away from the simple truth of abiding in Christ.

S
sermonindex

Can't you see the contradiction in these and how you are bringing confusion? Maybe you are confused about the positional sanctification we have in Christ (we are set apart in Him) and the on going work of sanctification, which is the practical outworking of this in our daily lives (being conformed to his image).

What you said in your last post would be understood as 'progressive sanctification', which as brother Frank said all true saints would agree with. But you keep arguing about receiving some special blessing of 'entire' sanctikkkfication, which can only be understood to mean 'sinless'. Otherwise what does 'entire' mean??

Why don't you just press on to know the lord and continue to allow him to change you from glory to glory, being transformed into His image day by day and encourage others to do the same, rather than get caught up with all this teaching about 'entire sanctification', 'sinless perfection' and 'second (or 3rd or 4th) blessings' etc. There are a lot of strange teachings out there and aligning yourself with these will just lead to deception.

Yes I agree with Heydave on this. I find the same confusion often. Either we sin or we do not sin. Of course I believe that we can reach a point when we do not sin. Period. I also witness to having reached that point at one time and which has been witnessed to by others in the Holiness Movement but Colin is giving a mixed message by saying at one time he does not believe in sinless perfection and at the other by saying we can walk without sin. Entire and complete should not need provisions.

Sinless Perfection is a bad term to use as it is misinterpreted so often. It would help if Colin could bring clarity to his position.

S
sermonindex

In the light of scripture this is pure deception. "a holy man" sanctifying others?? Where do we find that type of teaching in the NT? We are to look to Christ as our sanctifier, not any man. "nobody is getting sanctified at present". Really? what authority do you have to make that statement?

Heydave, of course it is Christ who sanctifies us or rather it is Christ who sends the Holy Spirit to us as sanctifier. But just as it is through man that we are brought to Christ for forgiveness so also it is through a man's preaching that we are sanctified.

As for you second question, can you give me a link to any man who says he is walking without sin? I can't find anyone who means without what some call mistakes.

Brethren, we really do need to be careful and discerning about this type of teaching that has an appearance of spirituality, but leads away from the simple truth of abiding in Christ.

Brother this teaching is exactly about abiding in Christ rather than the up and down many experience who have not yet been entirely sanctified. It is a simple act of complete submission to His Lordship and is not complicated at all. For me it is not a dispute about scripture alone but a personal experience of the life.

It is a fact that many believers do not enter into their full inheritance when they first believe. If you did, then praise God for that, you have nothing more to gain. However, myself and others were not able to walk int he Spirit until a further revelation was given.

S
sermonindex

Heydave writes......

"Can't you see the contradiction in these and how you are bringing confusion? Maybe you are confused about the positional sanctification we have in Christ (we are set apart in Him) and the on going work of sanctification, which is the practical outworking of this in our daily lives (being conformed to his image)."

I believe bro Colin should go back over his replies and see, as Dave pointed out, the contradictory nature of them. I pray that the brother will see the confusing nature of his comments. And sister, please believe me when I tell you that there will never be a time when you " arrive." Our life is a journey and it will have its ups and downs and you cannot insulate yourself from them by some kind of special dispensation. There will be mountaintops and there will be valleys, glorious days and some dark days. The narrow path winds its ways through green pastures and passes through dark valleys with the shadow of death at our backs. Yet, the Lord has given us a helper, a comforter who matures us and steadies us in the midst of storms.

Life itself will help us realize our desperate need for Jesus, and as the old song says, " I need thee oh I need thee, every hour I need thee." It is good to be reminded of our never ending need for Jesus and when we realize our own faults and failures, then we are humbled and it draws us closer. It is really no more complicated that that, as brother Dave said,

"Why don't you just press on to know the lord and continue to allow him to change you from glory to glory, being transformed into His image day by day and encourage others to do the same, rather than get caught up with all this teaching about 'entire sanctification', 'sinless perfection' and 'second (or 3rd or 4th) blessings' etc. There are a lot of strange teachings out there and aligning yourself with these will just lead to deception." ..... bro Frank

S
sermonindex

Brother Frank

Indeed it is a journey, to climb the mountain of faith, and at times, to fall into the dark valleys on the way up. We never arrive in the sense that we never can walk alone as we need Christ even more, the higher we climb, as Satan is much more active the higher
we go and the temptations much more subtle. But there is a place to be reached where the old man has been crucified, and a man is led by the Holy Spirit alone as his flesh is out of action.

We can indeed fall from this but the normal condition is to abide, in union with Christ who by the Holy Spirit has cleansed the temple of our hearts and made them pure otherwise He cannot dwell in His fullness though we can have a measure. Sin cannot dwell therein. It is the principle thorough out the OT. There is no such thing as a mixture with the flesh. Dead flesh means that there is no sin. I have been there and can tell that a pure heart does not contain sin, not even one thought not in line with His will. You are denying what you have not experienced.

S
sermonindex

Hi sister,

I believe that you are confused in this regard. I well believe that there was a season in your life where you encountered the presence of God to a deeper degree and that this can be experienced again. The simple truth is that the NT does not teach that we walk in sinless perfection and this is one reason you could not give bro Dave a single example of any man claiming to walk as such. You say I am denying what I have not experienced. This is not true. In fact humility would prevent me from describing many seasons as you described sister. You have fallen into a snare sister and encountering God was not meant to be a snare it was simply meant to give you a hunger for continuing to seek after Him.

And so I would simply ask you what I asked Colin. Are you a liar who does not posses the truth? .........bro Frank

S
sermonindex

And so I would simply ask you what I asked Colin. Are you a liar who does not posses the truth?

Brother I do not understand your question. How does a question like that encourage discourse and how does it conform with the regulations made for posting on this forum?

I can give brother Dave many examples from the past but they are all dead as far as I know though there are some who have walked like this but not at present. A century ago you would have found many and even nearer in time at the Hebridean revivals.

I know many of us in fact all have had mountain top experiences and I have had them but this is not the same thing. The period I spent lasted for 18 months and even my estranged unsaved husband had to admit that he could see no sin in me (the marriage ended as he wished to drink himself to death in peace) which was a problem for him since adolescence.

The Bible says that a man in Christ does not sin.

S
sermonindex

Sister, you misunderstand the questions, scroll back a few posts and see the context of the questions. I do not belive for one second that you are a liar and that Jesus does not dwell in you, but given the Scripture Colin quoted, that is what in effect you are saying about yourself given your faulty notion of what the Scripture is saying........ Bro Frank

H
Heydave

Krautfrau,

Here is another contradiction.
You said: "We can indeed fall from this but the normal condition is to abide, in union with Christ who by the Holy Spirit has cleansed the temple of our hearts and made them pure otherwise He cannot dwell in His fullness though we can have a measure. Sin cannot dwell therein."

So here you say that to be without sin (sinless) is the normal Christian condition, but then you say you don't know anyone who is in this condition today! That is hardly 'normal'!

I believe you are very much deceived in this matter. Even if you think you were without any sin at all for a period of 18 months (who knows - God will judge our hearts one day), the fact that you then fell from this shows it is not your 'normal' experience.

Then you say "The Bible says that a man in Christ does not sin." So are you saying you are currently not in Christ? If so you are lost.

The bible does say that in the English language, but what the Apostle John actually wrote was that "Whoever abides in him, does not continue in sin: whoever continues in sin, has not seen him or known him." The continuous tense here is very important.

It is a lifestyle practice of sin John is talking about. You could say that abiding (living) in Christ means we do not abide (live) in sin. He is not talking about sinlessness, otherwise you and I would have to say we don't abide in Christ and have never known Him. As Frank has been saying, we need some honesty here!

S
sermonindex

Sister, you misunderstand the questions, scroll back a few posts and see the context of the questions. I do not belive for one second that you are a liar and that Jesus does not dwell in you, but given the Scripture Colin quoted, that is what in effect you are saying about yourself given your faulty notion of what the Scripture is saying........ Bro Frank

Brother neither myself or Colin are saying that we do not sin.

S
sermonindex

Here is another contradiction.
You said: "We can indeed fall from this but the normal condition is to abide, in union with Christ who by the Holy Spirit has cleansed the temple of our hearts and made them pure otherwise He cannot dwell in His fullness though we can have a measure. Sin cannot dwell therein."

So here you say that to be without sin (sinless) is the normal Christian condition, but then you say you don't know anyone who is in this condition today! That is hardly 'normal'!

I believe you are very much deceived in this matter. Even if you think you were without any sin at all for a period of 18 months (who knows - God will judge our hearts one day), the fact that you then fell from this shows it is not your 'normal' experience.

Then you say "The Bible says that a man in Christ does not sin." So are you saying you are currently not in Christ? If so you are lost.

The bible does say that in the English language, but what the Apostle John actually wrote was that "Whoever abides in him, does not continue in sin: whoever continues in sin, has not seen him or known him." The continuous tense here is very important.

It is a lifestyle practice of sin John is talking about. You could say that abiding (living) in Christ means we do not abide (live) in sin. He is not talking about sinlessness, otherwise you and I would have to say we don't abide in Christ and have never known Him. As Frank has been saying, we need some honesty here!

Brother, there is a difference between average and normal. The normal and expected state for Christians is not found in the church today. If it was we would be living like the apostles. I am not in union with Christ at the moment but seek Him ardently and know that I am a sinner so am not lost in the sense you say. To continue in sin means exactly that - - the opposite is to stop sinning.

M
murrcolr

Heydave ”“ thanks for your questions, but let me say I am not arguing, I look forward to having a healthy discussion with anyone. All I am doing is putting forth the truth as God is showing me, hoping to have fair discussion based on scripture; unfortunately I haven’t had that so far on this thread.

Let’s see if I can help so there is no confusion. In my last post I am talking about myself, but I have no problems with calling sanctification a journey either, as journey has a beginning and end, just as sanctification has a beginning and an end, this implies that there is progression in sanctification just as there is progression in a journey. So let me state clearly there is progression in sanctification, but there is also a beginning and an end.

Let’s establish this about our Christian walk first you’re justified, then your sanctified, and finally you’ll be glorified. Sanctification the journey starts when you’re justified and ends when you’re sanctified. But let’s keep in mind these steps justified, sanctified and glorified as not to confuse sanctification with glorification.

Now if sanctification starts at justification, what should we call it when the journey of sanctification is completed? We must look at scripture to see if there is anything we can use to describe it.

Now may the God of peace himself sanctify you completely, and may your whole spirit and soul and body be kept blameless at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ. 1 Thess 5:23 ESV

Let’s read the scripture above, you’ll find two things that I have mentioned in this post, sanctification and the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ (glorification). When we see Jesus face to face, when the trumpet sounds we will be glorified you can check out these scriptures to back up what I am saying. 1 John 3:2, 1 Corinthians 15:51”“52, Philippians 3:20-21.

Look at how the verse starts ‘Now’ meaning at the present time or moment, but ‘now’ also implies it’s by faith (faith is now). ‘May the God of peace himself sanctify you completely’ The end of the journey of sanctification is complete sanctification not when you see Jesus face to face or when the trumpets sounds but ‘now’ at the present time or moment, by faith.


So what do I mean by ‘complete sanctification’ well lets continue reading the scripture, ‘and may your whole spirit and soul and body be kept blameless’. The word ‘Kept’ is past tense meaning before Christ comes, it means to be supported by another; this implies some is supporting you. Blameless means innocent of wrongdoing above reproach, beyond criticism, above suspicion, irreproachable, unimpeachable, in the clear, not to blame, without fault.

Complete sanctification is being kept by Christ, innocent of wrongdoing.

Colin's amplified version of the 1 Thess 5:23: At this present time by faith, may the God of peace himself sanctify you completely, and may your whole spirit and soul and body be kept by Christ, innocent of wrongdoing and without fault,(remember kept puts all this past tense) before the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

It’s there in scripture in black and white, we can disagree, we can find faults, we can jump up and down and turn red with rage but the scripture remain the same.

Edit: grammar

S
sermonindex

Good post brother. I am totally in agreement about sanctification to be in this life but then l go one step further to say that glorification is for this life too. I came to believe after the work of Christ in my own life.

However brother you still have not made it clear what sanctification looks like. You say no sin yet you reject my understanding. Why?

S
sermonindex

Bro Dave writes.........

"Then you say "The Bible says that a man in Christ does not sin." So are you saying you are currently not in Christ? If so you are lost" And then the brother makes this, the most vital point "It is a lifestyle practice of sin John is talking about."

Therein lies the key, the word practice. I would urge my bro Colin and my dear sister to study this word in regard to sin ( and also the terms " sin," as opposed to " sins."

If you look at Galatians 5:18-21 we see what Paul calls the works of the flesh and those who practise these things shall not inherit the kingdom of God. Now amongst the works of the flesh are anger and jealousies and divisions and so on. Given the brother and the sisters application, then anyone who is ever angry must be of the flesh and therefore disqualified from the Kingdom. Yet it clearly says " practise," and we know what practise means. It means to be habitual, to be a lifestyle, to be something that we become identified with.

This is very different from the sanctified saint who can indeed have moments of sin which would include jealousies and anger and so on. Does that mean we do not strive towards never being angry or desire to be more and more Godly in our lives ? Of course not. Yet by the same token it does not mean someone is not walking in the power of God and have the ability to be used mightily of God because he is not perfect. If perfection is the standard to be used of God and God can only use those who are perfect then there is no one that God can use.........bro Frank

S
sermonindex

Brother Frank

I don't believe that God is unable to use a man who is operating from the flesh. That man might be convinced that he can be entirely sanctified but for some reason, still does not have the blessing. And again a man who is sanctified and desires to be right with God but still has slip ups can be used by God a great deal. Both types of men have a place in the mansion but only those who have a pure heart where Christ can dwell will be saved to the uttermost.

To sin and repent but go on to commit the same sin again is practicing sin. He has gone back like a dog to it's vomit. Anger is such a terrible thing. It destroys trust. If we have the power of God within then anger should be a thing of the past. The Holy Spirit is like a dove and a dove is gentle and meek. So should a man of God be. If he gets angry at times then he is an angry man. God showed me very clearly about this sin in myself which l had been justifying and with His power, l was never angry again when walking in the light.

S
sermonindex

Has anyone considered the differences between the words used in the NT as Sin, trespass, iniquity, etc?

I found this devotional site talking about 7 different types of sins:

http://www.biblefood.com/7wrdsin.html


from the site:


1. "Hamartia" = "To miss the mark", as in archery competition, and therefore fail to receive the prize, or blessing. This is the general Greek word for sin, and is used 221 times. "Hamartia" encompasses the other 6 words for specific sins, in the sense that in all types of sin, we are "missing the mark". Example: Heb. 12:1, KJV = "the sin (hamartia) which doeth so easily beset us". We are aiming at God's best, but miss it.

2. "Hettema" = "Diminishing what should have been given full measure". Example: 1 Cor. 6:7, KJV = "there is a fault (hettema) among you". We all need God's constant help on this one! Placing emphasis on the things that please God will bring God's wonderful blessings into our life.

3. "Paraptoma" = "Falling when one should have stood". This one is actually an unintentional slip. I guess you've experienced this, as I have, and we are surprised when we realize we've sinned. Example: Eph. 1:7, KJV = We have "the forgiveness of sins (paraptoma), according to the riches of His grace". Even our "slip-ups" are forgiven.

4. "Agnoeema" = "Ignorance when one should have known". Example: Heb. 9:7, KJV = "the errors (agnoeema) of the people". This passage speaks of how the Old Testament was a shadow of the New Testament. Ignorance is no excuse, that's why we stay in the Word!

5. "Parakoe" = "To refuse to hear and heed God's word". Example: 2 Cor. 10:6, KJV = "disobedience". In this passage, Paul urges us to hear God's Word and to bring every thought into captivity for Christ.

6. "Parabasis" = "To intentionally cross a line". Example: Heb. 2:2, KJV = "every transgression (parabasis) & disobedience (parakoe) received a just recompense of reward". When God "draws a line in the sand", we can suffer great loss of rewards and blessings by intentionally "stepping over".

7. "Anomia" and "Paranomia" = "Lawlessness, or willfully breaking God's written rules". Example: Titus 2:14 KJV = Jesus gave himself for us in order to "redeem us from all iniquity (anomia)". God has "rules" to bless us, not to curse us. Someone said "the Bible is the owner's manual for human beings". Can you imagine trying to operate something as complicated as a human life without referring to the owner's manual? That would be just asking for frustration and failure!

There are also inward sins, and outwards sins. Maybe outwards sins are easier to overcome than the inwards sins of lust, greed, anger etc. I will post a thread quoting a chapter about "spiritual, soulish, and carnal" if it would bless anybody.

here:
https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=50900&post_id=358892&order=0&viewmode=thread&pid=0&forum=34#358892

S
sermonindex

"l was never angry again when walking in the light."

Sister, it seems to me that you have your mind made up and no one could convince you otherwise. It may be best to agree to disagree. Let me give one last opinion and you need not reply. Bro Paul West wrote recently about the bondage sometimes caused by folks who insist that you should be reading your Bibles 7 hours a day and likened it to Pharoah requiring the children of Israel to make more bricks. This is how I see your understanding of this issue, I see you as one locked in bondage to this thought. I do not say that as a criticism , but merely as my observation. This can come across as an accuser of the bretheren. Some young saint could read this and be plunged into despair because they cannot live the perfect life. Now I know this is not your heart, but this is how it comes across to me, and I could be very wrong in this. I also have friends who suffer from paralysis of analysis, who over think things and end up doing nothing at all. God bless you sister........ bro Frank

S
sermonindex

Sister, it seems to me that you have your mind made up and no one could convince you otherwise. It may be best to agree to disagree. Let me give one last opinion and you need not reply. Bro Paul West wrote recently about the bondage sometimes caused by folks who insist that you should be reading your Bibles 7 hours a day and likened it to Pharoah requiring the children of Israel to make more bricks. This is how I see your understanding of this issue, I see you as one locked in bondage to this thought. I do not say that as a criticism , but merely as my observation. This can come across as an accuser of the bretheren. Some young saint could read this and be plunged into despair because they cannot live the perfect life. Now I know this is not your heart, but this is how it comes across to me, and I could be very wrong in this. I also have friends who suffer from paralysis of analysis, who over think things and end up doing nothing at all. God bless you sister........ bro Frank

I do hope that any young believer would be plunged into despair and wish to live a holy life, for this is the work of the Holy Spirit who is waiting for us to reach that point and who is waiting to supply the power to do so. Saying peace peace where there is no peace, and where sin is diminished, is the work of the enemy. God hates sin. But I do not stress the need to repent without the emphasis being on our inability to stop committing sin without the filling of the Holy Spirit. Legalism beats us with a stick saying what we should do as far as outward acts of the law is concerned. I talk about the heart and the need for purity which is primarily to do with attitude.

Is this not your message too? If not, why?

M
murrcolr

NoahJD: Your thread really blessed me, thanks.

Sorry for the short answer, but I just want to make a short statement so you and others can think about it and respond.

The Flesh, is not intrinsically sinful, and may therefore be the scene of sin's defeat.

S
sermonindex

Bro Colin writes .....

'Colin's amplified version of the 1 Thess 5:23: At this present time by faith, may the God of peace himself sanctify you completely, and may your whole spirit and soul and body be kept by Christ, innocent of wrongdoing and without fault,(remember kept puts all this past tense) before the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ. It’s there in scripture in black and white, we can disagree, we can find faults, we can jump up and down and turn red with rage but the scripture remain the same."

The Scripture remains the same brother, but its your understanding of it that is faulty :) The Scriptures are infallible , not our interpretations :) We are faultless not because we do not sin, but because of the blood of Jesus. It is a works orientated mind that would believe otherwise which would lead to bondage. We are justified in the sight of God, not because of what we did, but because of what He did. Now why would one assume that sanctification would be any different? Have you started in the Spirit brother but now seek to walk according to the flesh? Is this argument a license to sin? God forbid.

Gal 3:1 O foolish Galatians, who bewitched you not to obey the truth, to whom before your eyes Jesus Christ was written among you crucified?
Gal 3:2 This only I would learn from you: Did you receive the Spirit by works of the law, or by hearing of faith?
Gal 3:3 Are you so foolish? Having begun in the Spirit, do you now perfect yourself in the flesh?
Gal 3:4 Did you suffer so many things in vain, if indeed it is even in vain?

Matthew Henry writes of this passage ........

"He calls upon them to consider their past and present conduct, and thence to judge whether they were not acting very weakly and unreasonably (Gal_3:3, Gal_3:4): he tells them that they had begun in the Spirit, but now were seeking to be made perfect by the flesh; they had embraced the doctrine of the gospel, by means of which they had received the Spirit, and wherein only the true way of justification is revealed. And thus they had begun well; but now they were turning to the law, and expected to be advanced to higher degrees of perfection by adding the observance of it to faith in Christ, in order to their justification, which could end in nothing but their shame and disappointment: for this, instead of being an improvement upon the gospel, was really a perversion of it; and, while they sought to be justified in this way, they were so far from being more perfect Christians that they were more in danger of becoming no Christians at all; hereby they were pulling down with one hand what they had built with the other, and undoing what they had hitherto done in Christianity." ........bro Frank

S
sermonindex

"The Flesh, is not intrinsically sinful...

Oh man, this is not good news for me...looks like I was one of the unlucky ones to be get the bad batch of sinful flesh:)

Brother, I maybe misunderstanding you but it is wrong to think or to suggest that our flesh is not sinful...it goes against scripture and common sense. What do you think is the cause of those sinful cravings and temptations...where do they come from? They come from our sinful flesh. Galations 3 reveals the following:

1) Christians still have "a flesh". v13
2) Christians are called to no longer obey (yield to) the flesh but the Holy Spirit. v16
3) The flesh inherently has "desires" v17
4) When the desires of our (fill in the blank) flesh is obeyed, then these desires are manifested and these are called sins and are described for us. v19
5) Christians are instructed how to live in order to not sin, by crucifying their (fill in the blank) flesh. v24

So lets fill in the blank. Would you call it "holy" flesh, or "righteous" flesh or "Godly" flesh or "good" flesh? I think it is pretty clear that the correct description is "sinful" flesh.

This means that there is no good in me, there is no righteousness or godliness about my flesh whatsoever. This is why I can not perfect holiness as a result of the works or efforts of my flesh. "Are you so foolish? Having begun by the Spirit, are you now being perfected by the flesh?" Gal 3:3

"For you were called to freedom, brethren; only do not turn your freedom into an opportunity for the flesh..." v13

"But I say, walk by the Spirit, and you will not carry out the desire of the flesh." v16

"For the flesh sets its desire against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh; for these are in opposition to one another..." v17

"Now the deeds of the flesh are evident, which are: immorality, impurity, sensuality, idolatry, sorcery, enmities, strife, jealousy, outbursts of anger, disputes, dissensions, factions, envying, drunkenness, carousing, and things like these, of which I forewarn you, just as I have forewarned you, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God." v19-21

"Now those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires." v24

S
sermonindex

"Is this argument a license to sin? God forbid."

brother Frank, this is precisely the reason why satan has unleashed this deception on the body of Christ. I am not saying this about anyone on this thread btw, but a general comment as to why this deception exists.

It is a ruse by the enemy to trick believers into thinking that IF there is no sin in their flesh, THEREFORE they cannot sin. Thus the "sinless perfection" false teaching. It therefore makes perfect sense to those who hold to this false teaching, that they are incapable of sinning. To overcome objections they then pretend that 1 John 1:9 is written to unsaved people. This false teaching, as you know has ripped through the body of Christ and is perpetrated by a lot of popular preachers such as those from Bethel (Redding) and Joseph Prince. Young people are lapping this up and falling for this deception lock, stock and barrel!!!

M
murrcolr

Frank thanks for your comments.

Quote by Frank: It is a works orientated mind that would believe otherwise which would lead to bondage. We are justified in the sight of God, not because of what we did, but because of what He did. Now why would one assume that sanctification would be any different?

You have missed two important words in Colin's amplified version of the 1 Thess 5:23 they are.

By faith

I urge you to re-read what I wrote, but saying that I am happy that you agree with me that sanctification is by faith.

Quote by Frank: We are faultless not because we do not sin, but because of the blood of Jesus.

Edit to add this

Here is something else you missed in Colin's amplified version of the 1 Thess 5:23

be kept by Christ

Kept by Christ meaning he has provided all of the necessary blessings to insure our ultimate redemption

M
murrcolr

"The Flesh, is not intrinsically sinful...

It is a ruse by the enemy to trick believers into thinking that IF there is no sin in their flesh, THEREFORE they cannot sin.

Okay let me explain a bit more..

Apostle Paul’s understood the flesh to be weak, it becomes the gateway to sin Rom 8:3; 2 Cor 12:7; Gal 4:14. Still more, as the arena in which sin entrenches itself it becomes the instrument of sin Rom 6:12-14 to the extent that it becomes sinful itself Rom 8:3, and so an occupying alien power Rom 7:17-20.

The accompanying war Paul describes as a struggle between flesh and Spirit Rom 8:5-17; Gal 5:16-24. The seriousness of the struggle is indicated by the fact that the mind-set of the flesh leads to death Rom 8:6, and that those living in the flesh cannot please God Rom 8:8.

Accounts of this conflict where Paul is describing the demands of the law on the one hand Romans 7:4 Romans 7:7-11; Gal 5:2-5, and its impotence to enable the believer to meet them on the other Rom 8:3; Gal 3:10-12.

However the flesh is not intrinsically sinful, and may therefore be the scene of sin's defeat.

Edit - Grammar

S
sermonindex

This is a very deep theological statement by Colin:

"However the flesh is not intrinsically sinful, and may therefore be the scene of sin's defeat."

This is one of the reasons that many believed that Charles Finney was semi-pelagian.

I could not find the sermon I was looking for by Finney, but here is an excerpt from Charles G. Finney's Sermon on THE EXCUSES OF SINNERS by by A. T. Overstreet, Are Men Born Sinners?

"Men plead a sinful nature for their excuse. And pray, what is this sinful nature? Do you mean by it that every faculty and even the very essence of your constitution were poisoned and made sinful in Adam, and came down in this polluted state by inheritance to you? Do you mean that you were so born in sin that the substance of your being is all saturated with it, and so that all the faculties of your constitution are themselves sin? Do you believe this?

I admit if this were true, it would make out a hard case. A hard case indeed! Until the laws of my reason are changed, it would compel me to speak out openly and say--Lord, this is a hard case, that Thou shouldst make my nature itself a sinner, and then charge the guilt of its sin upon me! I could not help saying this; the deep echoings of my inner being would proclaim it without ceasing, and the breaking of ten thousand thunderbolts over my head would not deter me from thinking and saying so. The reason God has given me would forever affirm it.

But the dogma is an utter absurdity. For, pray, what is sin? God answers--"transgression of law." And now you hold that your nature is itself a breach of the law of God--nay, that it has always been a breach of God's law, from Adam to the day of your birth; you hold that the current of this sin came down in the veins and blood of your race--and who made it so? Who created the veins and blood of man? From whose hand sprang this physical constitution and this mental constitution? Was man his own creator? Did sin do a part of the work in creating your physical and your mental constitution? Do you believe any such thing? No; you ascribe your nature and its original faculties to God, and upon Him, therefore, you charge the guilty authorship of your "sinful nature."

But how strange a thing is this! If man is in fault for his sinful nature, why not condemn man for having blue or black eyes? The fact is, sin never can consist in having a nature, nor in what nature is; but only and alone in the bad use which we make of our nature. This is all. Our Maker will never find fault with us for what He has Himself done or made; certainly not. He will not condemn us, if we will only make a right use of our powers--of our intellect, our sensibility, and our will. He never holds us responsible for our original nature. If you will observe, you will find that God has given no law prescribing what sort of nature and constitutional powers we should have. He has given no law on these points, the transgression of which, if given, might somewhat resemble the definition of sin. But now since there is no law about nature, nature cannot be a transgression.

Here let me say, that if God were to make a law prescribing what nature or constitution a man must have, it could not possibly be otherwise than unjust and absurd, for the reason that man's nature is not a proper subject for legislation, precept, and penalty, inasmuch as it lies entirely without the pale of voluntary action, or of any action of man at all. And yet thousands of men have held the dogma that sin consists in great part in having a sinful nature. Yes, through long ages of past history, grave theologians have gravely taught this monstrous dogma; it has resounded from pulpits, and has been stereotyped for the press, and men have seemed to be never weary of glorifying this dogma as the surest test of sound orthodoxy! Orthodoxy!! There never was a more infamous libel on Jehovah! It would be hard to name another dogma which more violently outrages common sense. It is nonsense--absurd and utter NONSENSE! I would to God that it were not even worse than nonsense! Think what mischief it has wrought! Think how it has scandalized the law, the government, and the character of God! Think how it has filled the mouths of sinners with excuses from the day of its birth to this hour!

Now I do not mean to imply that the men who have held this dogma have intelligently insulted God with it. I do not imply that they have been aware of the impious and even blasphemous bearings of this dogma upon Jehovah;--I am happy to think that some at least have done all this mischief ignorantly. But the blunder and the mischief have been none the less for the honest ignorance in which they were done" (http://www.gospeltruth.net/menbornsinners/mbs23.htm).

S
sermonindex

"the flesh is not intrinsically sinful, and may therefore be the scene of sin's defeat."

brother Colin, I am still confused by your statement so let me have a crack at rewording this a little.

"The flesh is not by nature sinful...there is no sin in my flesh because it is merely a gateway through which sin passes. If this gateway can remain closed, then the flesh may become the the place or arena whereby a believer becomes sinless."

Do I have it right, is this what you are saying?

M
murrcolr

From Zondervan's KJV Study Bible we learn that

"Gnosticism was one of the worst heresies in the first two centuries of church history. It elevated "dualism," a belief that matter is evil and spirit is good. From dualism emerged five errors in the early church:

1. Man's body and the physical creation is evil because it is matter, contrasted with God, who is spirit and thus good. This is not biblical. God proclaimed Creation and Man as "very good."

2. Salvation provides escape from the evil body. This is achieved through special knowledge from the Greek word gnosis from which we derive the word Gnosticism.

3. Christ's true humanity was denied. Some said that He only "appeared" to have a real body. This view was called Docetism. Others said that the divine, (spiritual) Christ joined (the physical)Jesus at His baptism and left Jesus before he died. This view was called Cerinthianism named after a teacher, Cerinthus.

This view formed part of the background for 1 John seen in 1:1, 2:22, and 4:2-3. John wrote 1 John to expose false teachers and to give assurance of salvation. "In keeping with his intention to combat Gnostic teachers, John specifically struck at their total lack of morality (3:8-10), and by giving eyewitness testimony to the incarnation, he sought to confirm his readers' belief in the incarnate Christ (1:3)."

4.Asceticism arose from a view that the body is evil. Ascetics treated their own bodies harshly. The ascetic Gnosticism formed the background of part of the letter to the Colossians (2:21-23).

..."why...do you submit to regulations - 'Do not handle, Do not taste, Do not touch' (referring to things that all perish as they are used) - according to human precepts and teachings?" (Colossians 2:21-22).

5.This view also led to licentiousness because it was thought that the body did not matter. One could do what he wanted with it."

S
sermonindex

I agree that flesh is not inherently sinful.

God gave us instincts which are part of the flesh. The flesh has a propensity for corruption though. It is this part that needs crucifixion. The rest, the natural human part of ourselves must be under the rule of the Holy Spirit so that we obey Him rather than rely on our human instincts but they are not sinful. The desire for knowledge was not sinful but it lead to sin in Adam as it went outside of the perimeter ordained by God.

S
sermonindex

HI bro Colin, well at least you keep me guessing :) I never know if we are agreeing or disagreeing with one another. Maybe I will just have to purchase Colin's Amplified Bible :)........bro Frank

M
murrcolr

Quote: I am still confused by your statement so let me have a crack at rewording this a little.

Let me help, did God create us to be sinful? No

So Sin is a occupying alien power Rom 7:17-20

S
sermonindex

It is clear from Gods word that we have a sinful flesh within us.

Romans 7:18-25
"For I know that nothing good dwells in me, that is, in my flesh; for the willing is present in me, but the doing of the good is not. For the good that I want, I do not do, but I practice the very evil that I do not want. But if I am doing the very thing I do not want, I am no longer the one doing it, but sin which dwells in me.

I find then the principle that evil is present in me, the one who wants to do good. For I joyfully concur with the law of God in the inner man, but I see a different law in the members of my body, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin which is in my members. Wretched man that I am! Who will set me free from the body of this death? Thanks be to God through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, on the one hand I myself with my mind am serving the law of God, but on the other, with my flesh the law of sin."

Zac Poonen seems to understand what Paul is saying...in that born again believers have a new nature but also that they are stuck their sinful flesh. And that this flesh is relentless and wicked and evil...which is why we must crucify "it". Therefore we can say with clarity that unfortunately that we have a sinful flesh.

Here is what Zac Poonen has to say about our wicked, sinful flesh. He describes the law of God (the new nature/man/mind) verses the law of sin (our flesh)and how we have both, even after we are saved.

"The Bible teaches that our old self was crucified by God on the cross (Rom.6:6). We cannot crucify our old man. The old man (the mind that wants to sin) was crucified with Christ on the cross. It was God who did that. But there is something else that we have to crucify ”“ our flesh (the storehouse of desires). Galatians 5:24 says, "Those who are Christ’s have crucified their flesh with its lusts and its affections.”

The flesh is different from the old man. The flesh with its lusts is like a gang of robbers that tries to come into our heart to pollute us. The old man is like an unfaithful servant who lives inside our heart and opens the door every time these robbers come to steal. Which of the two does God kill? He kills the servant. The gang of robbers is still hale and hearty. This is why we are all tempted in exactly the same way after we are converted as we were, before we were converted. That proves that the robbers are still alive. They still want to enter our heart - even after we are converted. But something else has died within us - the servant who opened the door for these thieves (the old man). God killed him and put a new servant within us when we were born again ”“ a servant who does not want to open the door for the thieves. When temptation comes now to us, the new servant says, "No.” Then how do believers fall into sin? Because they don’t feed the new servant well! Then he is not strong enough to keep the door shut against the robbers. And the robbers push their way in. That’s how a believer sins.

But there is a vast difference between a believer sinning and an unbeliever sinning - because the believer doesn’t want to sin and the unbeliever wants to sin. In fact that’s the test of whether you are really born again or not. The proof of being born again is not whether you sin or not, but whether you want to sin. If you still want to sin, I would say you are not converted. When people come asking for water-baptism, I ask them one question, "Do you want to sin any more - even once?” I don’t ask them, "Will you sin?”, because nobody can say they will not sin. It is the ‘want to’ that is the old man.

These are the two deaths the New Testament speaks of. Both of these are pictured beautifully in the history of Israel. The army of Pharaoh was buried in one moment under the Red Sea. That’s a picture of the old man. Who did that? God. The old man was crucified on the cross by God. Then the Israelites crossed Jordan, which speaks of another death. We accept our co-crucifixion with Christ to our lusts. Those who are Christ’s take this attitude towards their lusts. The lusts are still there and the giants are still ruling the land. But Joshua and the Israelites had determined to kill them one by one. It is we who have to kill our lusts - one by one ”“ as we are tempted. We must put to death the deeds of the body ourselves ”“ by the power the Spirit gives us (Rom.8:13). This is very different from the Egyptian army being buried in a moment by God."

S
sermonindex

Brother Mark, could you post the link to the audio or video sermon you got that Poonen excerpt from? Thanks

noah

edit: i think its from "The Gospel is the Power of God" video sermon

S
sermonindex

"Did God create us to be sinful? No. So Sin is a occupying alien power."

It helps to substitute the word "corrupt" instead of "sinful"

The flesh is like soil that is corrupted and filthy and diseased. When we "sow to the flesh" we therefore produce filthy, diseased, ungodly fruit. Paul describes these in Gal 5...and we call these the sins of the flesh.

Paul also describes this "sowing" process as well...Gal 6:8
"For the one who sows to his own flesh will from the flesh reap corruption..."

"If we sow to the corrupt flesh we reap corruption"
i.e.
"If we sow to the sinful flesh we reap sin"

I think it is fairly simple to see that.

If we were to carry the false premise to its conclusion we might say:

"The flesh is not inherently sinful and therefore it is inert. It produces nothing in and of itself and therefore it can produce good works/godliness OR it can produce corruption/sinfulness".

This is clearly incorrect as described above...the flesh (which is sinful) can only ever produce one type of thing....sin.

S
sermonindex

Hi brother NoahJD...here is the link.

http://www.cfcindia.com/web/mainpages/word_for_the_week.php?display=08_03&year=13

S
sermonindex

Good post brother Mark. As I walked this morning and communed with the Lord, I was actually thinking about this thread a little bit. It occurred to me that after Germany fell in WW11, the allies had won. There was an unconditional surrender by the German high command. Yet all over Germany there were pockets of resistance, still fighting. So complete victory, but still fighting. And the attitudes of Germans did not change over-night, in fact it took decades in many cases. This seems somewhat analagous to me in regard to complete victory over sin in Christ, yet still sins in the hinterlands ( the flesh) .......... bro Frank

M
murrcolr

Quote: It is clear from Gods word that we have a sinful flesh within us.

The scripture quoted makes it clear that Sin dwells in the flesh.

Are we created to be slaves to sin? When God created man was there Sin in his flesh?

So Sin is a occupying alien power, that enslaves us.

S
sermonindex

"who will free me from the body of this death? Thanks be to God through Jesus Christ our Lord"

M
murrcolr

Quote:"who will free me from the body of this death? Thanks be to God through Jesus Christ our Lord

A good point to introduce this part

The Flesh is not intrinsically sinful, and may therefore be the scene of sin's defeat.

This victory comes through Christ's coming and crucifixion in the flesh Rom 8:3. Those who identify themselves with him by faith likewise crucify the flesh Gal 2:20; 5:24 so being set free from the power of sin in the flesh Rom 6:14; 8:9. This appears to be confirmed by the Apostles Paul use of the term "body." The "body of sin" was done away with at the cross Rom 6:6. The "body of our humiliation" Php 3:21, which is weak and still subject to the attack of sin, is the body of the interim. The "body of glory" Php 3:21, transformed and imperishable 1 Corinthians 15:42-44 1 Corinthians 15:50-53, is the body of the age to come.

S
sermonindex

Galatians 5:16
But I day walk by the Spirit, and you will not carry out the desires of the flesh.
.......................................................
Brethren I know the simple word of God is frowned on in this forum in favor of complicated theology to establish absurb points. Believers do sin and that is a given by the testimony of scripture and the experience of the believer.

Galatians 5:16 teaches if one is walking by the Spirit they are not going carry out the sinful practices of Galatians 5:19-21. But there is s choice and decision implied. Namely to be under the direction and control of the Holy Spirit. To not be under the governing influence of the Holy Spirit will allow the flesh to come in which leads to sin.

If an airplane is flying with adequate fuel boyles law of lift will keep the plane aloft and counter the law gravity. If the plane runs out of fuel gravity takes over and the plane crashes. Thus the need for adequate fuel for the plane.

The Christian needs to be filled with the Spirit on a daily basis and even moment by moment. This is the command of Eph. 5:18. Being filled with the Spirit is emptying ourselves and asking for His filling.

Also we need to take time to be with God in prayer and the word. Though the forum will dispute me on the latter. Yet the Psalmist said that the word of God he treasured so he would not sin against God. The word of God is fuel for the Spirit. The Spirit is fire and the word is gas or the logs. The more word the more Spirit. The more Spirit and word the more one will have victory over the flesh and sin.

My thoughts on walking in the Spirit.

Bearmaster.

S
sermonindex

Good word Master Bearm!!!

S
sermonindex

Yes brother appolus, very good analogy. I think another good example is when Cain was warned by the Lord, "sin is crouching at the door". Brother Zacs "gang of thieves" analogy explains this very well. I have this gang of thieves in me and these guys are every ready to pounce at every opportunity to bring forth wickedness from my life. But as brother Bear says, we need to keep the plane full of the Spirit fuel (keep the door closed) so that we will NOT fulfill the desires of the flesh!!!

E
elected

I think we are comfusing flesh with the body. The body is the temple of the Holy Spirit and should be sanctified and kept holy by the grace of God as well as the spirit

If we believe that the body will not be redeemed from sin in this life, we are believing a gnostic philosophy that considers it evil since it is matter and not spirit.

The spirit and the flesh are opposite to each other. We sin if we give in to the desires of the flesh with its passions but when we crucify the flesh with its desires and passions and are abiding in Christ and He in us and we are led by the Spirit to walk in the light of God, the blood of Jesus will cleans us from all sin and unrighteousess. Shall we continue in known or willful sin? Im not even worthy to talk about this subject bc I've failed God so much but I know that by the mercy of God I can experience forgiveness when I confess my sin at the foot of the cross and his grace can enable me not to live in sin but in the Spirit.

Romans 7 is used by many sincere christians to back up a theology of defeat as if Paul was struggling still in his present time under the law of sin and death, as if he was oscillating from pole to pole, from life in the flesh to life in the Spirit. Paul did not have a split personality, he was not a carnal christian, actually his life was such and example of godliness and holiness thay he would exhort saints to follow his example.

If we believe in the false exegeses of Romans 7 that we cant have victory over sin, than all those scriptures about victory and triumph in Christ of the apostle will be in plain contradiction with this chapter. Romans 8 describes the victorious christian life of the child of God who is under the law of the Spirit of life and is set free in Christ Jesus. This is the normal christian life led by the Holy Spirit and there is no power in hell on earth or heaven above that can seperate a dear child of God from the love of the Father, or from the grace of Christ and the fellowship of the Spirit.

- edited

S
sermonindex

HI Elected, Gnostics believed it did not matter what you did with the flesh because the flesh was evil. This is a far cry from what is being discussed. No one has suggested that one has a license to sin.

I agree with your opinion on Romans 7 and I myself have met many, especially those of a Baptist background, who use Romans 7 as a theology for defeat and cannot really comprehend there being no condemnation to those who walk according to the Spirit and not the flesh.

In everything there is a balance, the Sriptures are full of tensions. The man who lives any way he pleases because he thinks once saved always saved and he cannot be condemned because of some legal fiction ( the notion that salvation is a mental assent to an abstract truth) is the man who is lost.

The man who thinks he can somehow overcome sin and be sanctified by his own efforts will find himself crying out " oh wretched man that I am, who will deliver me from this body of death."

So if I believe in the victorious Christian life, and I do, then what am I saying? Let me first say what it is not. It is not sinless perfection. The victorious Christian life does not come from the waving of a magic wand. Why do people always want the shortcut and have to discover that there are no shortcuts to sanctification? So, if you are looking for that one experience where suddenly you will walk the victorious life, you will be sadly disappointed.

Paul stated that he had " learned to be content," in ever situation. No magic wand, no overnight sensation. He had learned. How had he learned? By walking through, and willing to do so, trial after trial after trial. Are you ready and willing to walk this narrow walk? Can you cry out to God and ask Him for the furnace of afflictions where He burns away your flesh? Can you rejoice in your Lord always and again I say rejoice? If you can embrace the God who may even call you to martyrdom, then you are on your way to walking the victorious life. Because of anything you do? No, because time and time again you see a faithful God in action, a God who holds you, a God who will be with you when you pass through the waters and who will be with you in the midst of the furnace.

Now where does the Baptism of the Holy Spirit come into this? Well, it is vital. To some who believe that this is the second blessing that will bring you into sinless perfection, you are wrong on two counts, first there is no such thing for us, and secondly the Baptism of the Holy Spirit is to empower you to boldly proclaim the Gospel and to edify the church. Can anyone say that Peter was not baptized in the Spirit to the full measure? When he spoke, were men not stabbed in the heart? Did special miracles not take place at his hand? Indeed they did. Yet some time after this we see Peter play the hypocrite , according to Paul, and was publicly rebuked. Would a sinless perfect man play the hypocrite? Or maybe he needed a third special blessing because he was not yet sinlessly perfect? You see how silly that it?

No, sanctification is a journey and the victorious Christian life is a life that is exemplary, not sinless. The very least we as Christians should be doing, is be leading an exemplary Christian life. When men look at us they should see Jesus. When we do sin we should know that there is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ, we should know that we overcome sin by lifting our eyes to Jesus and humbly approaching Him where we find mercy and grace.

And so the genuine saints I have met along the way are always looking to me more like their Lord. They are not involved in what I would call the outwards sins. Drinking and drugs, violence and infidelity and so on. Many were before coming to Jesus, in fact, to my shame, I could tick of every box I just mentioned. Yet the very day that I encountered Jesus, all of these sins were gone by His hand , never to raise their ugly heads again for they were defeated by Jesus. They were the Jericho's of my old life. But just because the walls of Jericho fell, it did not mean that there were not and are not battles to posses the land the Lord has given me. This manifests itself in who I am on the inside. Do you want to overcome but do not want the battle? Then you are not worthy of the Kingdom. The promises are made to those who overcome.

Todd Bentley shouts to folks to come down and get a touch from him and get 10 years worth of sanctification. Can you see how this is from the enemy? The devil says to Jesus to bow down to him and He would have all the kingdoms of the world. One day Jesus will be back and every knee on earth will bow to Him, yet it was by the way of Calvary and there was no bypassing that. If our Lord tells us to take up our cross daily and die it's because there is no bypassing the cross. Only the devil would try to convince us otherwise.

We are told in Romans 8:13 that if you, by the power of the Spirit of course, mortify or put to death the deeds of the body, you shall live. Live what? The victorious Christian life. All at one time? In an instant? No. If so there would be novices in Christ, no babes in Christ, no mature saints in Christ. The mature saints have learned, as Paul learned. They have overcome by mortifying the deeds of the body as they walk the narrow path and as the Lord allows refining fires and floods to come in so as to refine us. Refining is a process, the key to the process is surrender. Surrender it all to Jesus and you will become more and more like Him as you overcome by the power of the Spirit...........bro Frank

H
Heydave

There are some great posts put on here recently. I particularly like the quote put on of Zac Poonen and Frank's WW2 analogy as this is both scriptural and what we see from experience.

I think the big mistake in some of the earlier views is that you can get to some place of a special impartation where sin and the flesh is no longer a problem and you become perfect (like walking on air). As if we have to put in no effort.
Sanctification is from God, but we have our part to play as well. It takes diligence and perseverance on our part to press in and on with what God has provided for us.

I was reading 2 Peter ch.1 last night and even here we see this principle. Consider the following.

"as His divine power has given to us all things that pertain to life and godliness, through the knowledge of Him who called us by glory and virtue,
by which have been given to us exceedingly great and precious promises, that through these you may be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust." (2 Peter 1:3-4).

So God has given to US ALL everything we need for life and godliness, through which we can partake of His divine nature and escape corruption. This comes through the knowledge of Him (God), by virtue of His promises.

BUT now see they following exhortation in verse 5 to 11.
Peter says 'For this reason (because of what God has given) we need to give ALL DILIGENCE to add to add our faith' the following: virtue; knowledge; self control; perseverance; godliness; brotherly kindness and Love.

Note: WE have to be diligent to add these things. He then says again in verse 10 "be even more diligent" and that "if we DO these things you will never stumble".

Seems to me that that God expects us to pick up what He has provided and work it out in our lives. Not sit around waiting for some divine impartation to come like a bolt from the sky that will make us perfect. He has already provided everything we need! We are just not diligent in appropriating it.

This is not self effort in our own strength. It is taking hold of that which God has provided for us.

And Paul agrees with Peter when he says:

"that I may know Him and the power of His resurrection, and the fellowship of His sufferings, being conformed to His death if, by any means, I may attain to the resurrection from the dead.
Not that I have already attained, or am already perfected; but I press on, that I may lay hold of that for which Christ Jesus has also laid hold of me."
(Philippians 3:10-12)

Paul says he is not already perfected, but "I press on that I may lay hold of that for which Christ Jesus laid hold of me". That's it right there. Are we pressing on and laying hold??

M
murrcolr

Quote: There are some great posts put on here recently. I particularly like the quote put on of Zac Poonen and Frank's WW2 analogy as this is both scriptural and what we see from experience.

I am going to pick up two points of what you said about the post from Zac Poonen and the point below.

Quote: I think the big mistake in some of the earlier views is that you can get to some place of a special impartation where sin and the flesh is no longer a problem.

Quote: from Zac Poonen article: Now the question I ask did your read it carefully?

These are the two deaths the New Testament speaks of. Both of these are pictured beautifully in the history of Israel. The army of Pharaoh was buried in one moment under the Red Sea. That’s a picture of the old man. Who did that? God. The old man was crucified on the cross by God. Then the Israelites crossed Jordan, which speaks of another death. We accept our co-crucifixion with Christ to our lusts.

------

Zac’s is trying to explain to you through the example of the Israelites, what I am telling you that’s there is two definite works of the Holy Spirit in the believers life, sanctification and complete sanctification The only difference between what Zac is saying and what I am saying is that he is calling it a two deaths.

Quote: from Zac Poonen article: Then the Israelites crossed Jordan, which speaks of another death. We accept our co-crucifixion with Christ to our lusts.

The question I now have to ask, does Zac's post remain great or is Zac making a big mistake to?

Edited-

H
Heydave

Colin,

I absolutely read it carefully. He differentiates between the 'old man' and the flesh. It is the old man that he says has been put to death for all true believers (not at some secondary blessing), but that the flesh still remains in sin as an enemy against the spirit. He actually states that although true believers now have a new nature and new desires to not want to sin, they cannot say they will never sin again (read it again).
Using the analogy of Israel in the promised land, there will always be an enemy (the flesh) to resist until we come into the fullness and put of this corrupted flesh. Our battle is against the 'world,the flesh and the devil'.

Sometimes the bible uses the word 'flesh' to mean just our physical bodies and sometimes it is used to mean a life which is controlled by earthly appetites that are corrupted by sin. We have to see the context to understand which. Our bodies (flesh) are not inherently sinful, but when we allow sin to rule in our bodies it is called walking in the flesh. If we don't live by the power of the Spirit and mortify our flesh, then we allow the flesh to dictate and this has a natural tendency to sin (as per Galatians 5). Here we all understand the battle 'flesh against Spirit'. We will always have the flesh, but don't have to allow it to reign (Romans 6). This is a choice we have to make and not something that is removed from us. That is the point that Zac Poonen makes as I understand it.

Maybe it is that you agree with this, but earlier posts (not necessarily yours) say the opposite.

S
sermonindex

So God has given to US ALL everything we need for life and godliness, through which we can partake of His divine nature and escape corruption. This comes through the knowledge of Him (God), by virtue of His promises.

Indeed He has supplied through His death on the cross everything we need to ESCAPE CORRUPTION and what is required, is faith in this and not in our own deeds or abilities.

Sanctification is from God, but we have our part to play as well. It takes diligence and perseverance on our part to press in and on with what God has provided for us.

Indeed we have our part to play and it does not come by laying back and waiting for a magic wand. We must press on and hunger and thirst for righteousness and there will be trials, some quite severe, before we are ready to consent to our flesh being crucified as it will scream to remain and believe in a 'gradual sanctification' where sin is unavoidable. We have to take a step out into the dark, not knowing what will be waiting for us in persecution and trials or even to be sent out in the mission field.

Instant sanctification requires a long walk before hand. It is not an easy street. On the contrary it is a very hard path and few enter because they love their flesh too much.

If the flesh is crucified then it is out of action and not a constant sparing partner. What on earth does it mean otherwise?

Paul says he is not already perfected, but "I press on that I may lay hold of that for which Christ Jesus laid hold of me". That's it right there. Are we pressing on and laying hold??

Paul is talking about attaining to the resurrection of the dead not holiness. He speaks to those already perfected a few verses later. Verses should not be taken out of context but that is required for those who oppose instant sanctification.

There is never a time when we can think that we will not sin again as we are always in danger of falling. This is not what perfection means.

S
sermonindex

two cents:

I believe there is some sort of "second blessing"* for those seek God through trial after trial. I mean REAL HARD trials that totally abase you like Christ was on the cross. totally crucify the flesh. unto an outpouring (makes me stir writing about it)

my thoughts,

Noah

*edit: or a "baptism in the Spirit". and i think it could happen however God wills. through much trial, little, or just faith

M
murrcolr

Quote: He differentiates between the 'old man' and the flesh. It is the old man that he says has been put to death for all true believers (not at some secondary blessing), but that the flesh still remains in sin as an enemy against the spirit.

When I read anything of Zac’s I can see the ‘higher life teaching’ of the Keswick movement, the main idea of the Higher Life movement is that the Christian should move on from his initial conversion experience to also experience a second work of God in his life.

Jacob - A Broken Man - Zac Poonen

http://www.cfcindia.com/web/mainpages/word_for_the_week.php?display=11_04&year=03

Jacob is a classic example of a man whom God succeeded in breaking. He had two meetings with God - one at Bethel (Genesis 28) and the other at Peniel (Genesis 32). Bethel means "the house of God" (a type of the church) and Peniel means "the face of God". We all need to go beyond entering the church of God to seeing the face of God. At Bethel, it says that "the sun set" (Gen.28:11) - only a geographical fact, but also indicative of what was happening in Jacob's life, because the next 20 years were a period of deep darkness for him. Then at Peniel, it says, "the sun rose" (Gen.32:31) - again a geographical fact, but Jacob too had finally come into God's light. Many believers who have walked with God through the ages, have had two meetings with God. The first was when they entered the house of God (the church) through being born again. The second was when they met God face to face and were filled with the Holy Spirit and their lives were transformed.

At Bethel, Jacob dreamt of a ladder set on earth whose top reached up to heaven. In John 1:51, Jesus interpreted that ladder as referring to Himself - the Way from earth to Heaven. So what Jacob saw was actually a prophetic vision of Jesus opening up the way to Heaven. The Lord then promised Jacob many things in that dream. But Jacob was so earthly minded that he could only think of earthly security, physical health and financial prosperity. And so he said to God "Lord if You take care of me on this trip and give me food and clothing and bring me safely home, I'll give you 10% of my earnings." Jacob treated God like a watchman who was to take care of him. And if God did that, Jacob would pay Him His wages - 10% of his income!! That's exactly how many believers treat God today too. They desire only material comforts from Him. And if the Lord gives them these things, they attend the church- meetings faithfully and give some of their money for the Lord's work. Such believers are actually doing business with God, seeking their own comfort and profit, just like any worldly businessman. Jacob spent 20 years of his life grabbing earthly things. He tried to grab a wife from Laban's family and got two! He didn't want two, but he got two anyway!! Then he cheated Laban and grabbed his sheep and thus became a very rich man. He had gone penniless to Laban's house, but ended up as a very rich man there. No doubt he attributed his prosperity to God's blessing - as many believers do today!!

But what is the real mark of "God's blessing"? Is it prosperity? No. It is to be transformed into the likeness of Christ. What's the use having a good job, a good house and many comforts, if your life is still useless to God and to man? But God hadn't finished dealing with Jacob. He met him a second time at Peniel. Many of you need a second encounter with God - an encounter that will take place when you hit rock bottom in your life - and when God, instead of judging you and sending you to Hell, fills you with His Holy Spirit! We read in Genesis 32 that Jacob was scared because he had just heard that Esau (whom he had cheated of the birthright 20 years earlier) was coming out to meet him. He was sure that Esau would kill him. It's good for us when God allows us to face certain situations that scare us. Because, when we are afraid of what men might do to us, we will draw near to God. At Peniel, Jacob was alone (Gen.32:24). God has to get us alone first of all before he can meet with us. That's why Satan has ordered life in today's world to be so rushed and busy (especially in the cities) that even many believers have hardly any time to be alone with God. Their lives have become so busy, that matters of low priority (like God) have been crowded out of their timetable altogether! This is the tragedy in today's Christendom.

God wrestled with Jacob for many long hours that night, but Jacob would not yield. That wrestling was symbolic of what had been going on in Jacob's life for the previous 20 years. And when God saw that Jacob was stubborn, He finally dislocated his hip from its socket. Jacob was only about 40 years old at that time, and he was a very strong man. His grandfather Abraham had lived up to 175. So, we could say that Jacob was in the prime of his youth, with 75% of his life still ahead of him. To get a dislocated hip at such a young age would have been the last thing he wanted - for it would have shattered all the plans he had made for his future. To understand it in today's terms, it would be like a young man of 20 getting his hip dislocated, and having to use a crutch for ever after!! That can be a shattering experience. Jacob would never be able to walk without a crutch for the rest of his life. God had tried in so many ways to break Jacob but He had not succeeded; and so He finally gave him a permanent physical disability. That succeeded in breaking Jacob finally. God may do the same for us, if He finds that we need it. He disciplines only those He loves, in order to save them from some greater catastrophe. After God had dislocated Jacob's hip, He told him, "All right, I have done My job. Now let Me go. You never wanted Me. You only wanted women and money." But Jacob wouldn't let go of God now. He had been changed - at last! This man who had spent his life grabbing women and property now grabs hold of God and says " I won't let You go unless You bless me". What a great work was accomplished in Jacob's heart when his hip was dislocated, so that He now desired only God.

Like the old saying goes, "When you have nothing left but God, you will find that God is more than enough"!! That's true. Now God asks him, "What is your name?" And Jacob replies, "My name is Jacob". "Jacob" means deceiver. Jacob admits at last that he is a deceiver. Are you perhaps a deceiver too? Have you been fooling others around you that you are a spiritual man? If so, will you be honest with God today and tell Him that you're a hypocrite? Many years earlier, when his blind father Isaac had asked him his name, Jacob had pretended that he was Esau. But now he was honest. And the Lord said to him immediately, "You won't be a deceiver (Jacob) any more" (v.28). Isn't that an encouraging word? Did you hear it? "You won't be a deceiver any more" Hallelujah! And then God told Jacob, "Your name will henceforth be Israel (prince of God), for you have striven with God and with men and have prevailed". What a transformation - from a deceiver to a prince of God. And it was all accomplished only when Jacob was broken. That's our calling too - to be seated with Christ on His throne, as a prince, exercising spiritual authority over Satan, and releasing men and women from Satan's bondage. As members of the body of Christ, we are to have power with God and with men and prevail. We're called to be a blessing to all men. But that can happen only when we're broken. And we can be broken only when we're honest with God about out hypocrisy and our deception.

Many centuries later, when a descendant of Jacob, Nathaniel, met Jesus, the Lord said of Him, "Here is a true Israel in whom there is no Jacob (no guile)" (John 1:47)!! He then reminded Nathaniel of the ladder that Jacob had seen at Bethel and told him that he too was an "Israel" - not because Nathaniel was perfect but because there was no guile or deception in him. It says here that Jacob named that place "Peniel" for he had finally seen the face of God. At Bethel, he had been taken up with the house of God. You may have been in the house of God for many years and yet you may not have seen the face of God. Then you need a second encounter with God - where you see His face. Jacob says in excitement, "Now I see Your face O God and my life is preserved."

S
sermonindex

He says in another text sermon that there is no second blessing. I guess there might have been a time difference. Can't access it ATM from my tablet.

M
murrcolr

Within The Veil (Entering the sabbath rest of God) By Art Katz

I had waited a long time for such an entry, because I thought I had to qualify spiritually.

As much as I am at war with the secular world, something of its concept of evolution yet lingered with me, so that I thought that I had to ‘evolve’ into a higher spiritual state, by virtue of which I would then be able to enter into this holiest place. I ‘stumbled,’ however, upon a series of teachings that were entitled: "Within the Veil,” and something in my inner man went click, and I could not rush fast enough to hear them. I put the first tape on with great expectations.

Something in my spirit was rising to the mystery in this, and as soon as I heard the first few statements, I was tempted to shut the machine off. Some ‘hillbilly’ American was speaking. He was coarse and ungrammatical, not my style at all, but as my finger went to the stop button, I hesitated, because something now began to reach me through his accent. It was beyond nationality, beyond culture, beyond time, beyond father or mother or beginning or ending of days. I continued to listen, tape by tape, of a man whose frustration was much like my own. He had the same risings and fallings of the spiritual life, the good days and the bad days, that render us incapable of saying with Paul, "You yourselves know, from the first day that I set foot in Asia, how I was with you the whole time” (ACTS 20:18B).

As I followed him in the Scriptures through the book of Hebrews, he showed that the Law was only a shadow of the good things to come, and not the very form of those things, and that it could not make perfect those who draw near. He went on to explain that there was One who came in point of time who could. His blood was better than the blood of bulls and of goats and of sacrifices. He had entered by His own blood into the heavenly place, and entered once and for all.In all of our impressive, spiritual ‘sophistication,’ we have not allowed these words to impact upon our souls. He entered once and for all, and He bids us enter also, and to enter boldly. It is not on the basis of our natural qualification. We must enter the holiest place by the blood of Jesus.

We have come to think of His blood only in terms of our atonement, and indeed it is sufficient to wash away sin and guilt, but His blood has done something more. It has opened a new and living way, inaugurated for us through the veil, that is, His flesh. Since, therefore, we have such a Great High Priest, let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith.

I remember the night I heard the last tape. I was in bed, my Bible open to these Scriptures in the book of Hebrews, and he described in the last tape how he came to a Sunday morning service as a minister, weary and defeated, in that kind of terrible monotony and predictability that our churches can so easily come to. But there was a woman that morning in the service who was a very bright light. She could hardly contain herself, and she was waving her arm in the air, wanting to give a testimony."Yes sister,” he said. And she replied, "I just want to say that I have entered within the holiest place of all.” He was quick to correct her, "You mean to say that you hope to enter.” After all she was only a housewife, he thought. "No,” she said, "I have entered.” "By what means?” he said.

"By faith in the blood of Jesus, and the veil that was rent by His flesh! I simply drew near with a true heart of faith, and I confessed that right now, in Jesus’ name, without any acknowledgment of qualification in myself that I do enter into the holiest place of all by the blood of Jesus,” she replied. She said that something had happened to her, and that she had entered into a ‘new place’””and it was visibly true of her. * Before that service had ended, one by one, people were getting up in the congregation and making a simple confession of their ‘entering right now’ on the basis of the blood of Jesus into a new and living way. The pastor himself entered, for which reason I was now hearing his tapes. A new kind of enablement had come to him of an enhanced and deepened quality of apostolic faith. There was a fresh source of creativity and originality that one receives in a place of communion with God in the holiest place of all.

At about this point I shut my tape machine down. I took my glasses off and thought for a moment, reflecting upon my years in Christ””the frustration, the rising and the falling, and I just simply breathed a prayer, flat on my back. I said, "Lord, right now, not on the basis of any qualification, I do enter into the holiest place of all by the blood of Jesus and the veil rent by His flesh. Amen.” Something in my deepest inner man went click, and I believe I have been in that place ever since, holding fast the confession of the faith. A new kind of freedom from the torment of wrestling with flesh commenced. Something happened when I entered in through the veil of His torn flesh that dealt with my flesh in a way I can hardly understand or communicate.

It is certain that every power of Hell will seek to steal this from us: "Oh, this is only a play on words, just a kind of Biblical rhetoric. There is no real, actual place of entry. This heavenly thing is only a vapor. It is an intangible thing. You have all that you need by virtue of your new birth. This is only a conceit on your part. Look, you are still the same!” Hold fast the confession of your faith. This is far beyond mere Christian respectability, far beyond any kind of ‘nice-guyism.’ This is having a conscience void of offense with God and with man. Let us therefore draw near with confidence to the throne of grace, that we may receive mercy and may find grace to help in time of need. (HEBREWS 4:16)

If we shall not receive it and if we shall not find it, then how shall we give it? We are therefore bidden to enter. It is the Sabbath rest that God has prepared for His people. Religious acts and works that stem from a bad conscience, that is to say, something that you feel obliged to do, are called dead works by God. The work of God comes always and eminently out of the rest of God, and is always performed on the Sabbath day, and no other. It alone is that act which brings sight to the blind. When the Jews of Jesus’ time were antagonized and stupefied at this bewildering Man, who performed these glorious things on the wrong day, He could say to them in utter simplicity that it was the Father who was doing the works. You will know when you are in the rest of God when you are at peace. This does not mean there will be an absence of trial or tension. Even in the midst of the turmoil of it, you are in the Shekinah place, the holiest place of all, independent of the circumstances that are flurrying everywhere about you.

God is not cruel to set before us such a calling, and to think that we shall be able to fulfill it on the paucity of our own human enablement. There is yet a deeper place, an ultimate place, and an absolute place. It is the holiest place of all, and it is for all those who are called to that which is apostolic and high-priestly. Consider Jesus as you have never before considered Him””the Son in whose image we also are called. The one who is joined to Him is one spirit with Him. We can understand Paul better when he says that he lives and moves and has his being in Him. Where are we and where do we desire to be, and where have we the faith to be? Do we desire an apostolic participation in the eternal purposes of God? Will we be able to stand against apostolic persecution and suffering?

We have got to come into a certain priestly place without which there cannot be an apostolic fulfillment. Jesus has rent the veil and bids us come, not on the basis of our qualification, but on the basis of His blood. God is calling us to an unusual involvement and participation. There is a high-priestly place available for us as a life that flows, and which is indestructible. Faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the Word of God. This is not some fanciful play on words, but something to be earnestly considered. Faith is now, and the hour has struck and the time is short, and God is requiring a fulfillment that can only come from this place within the veil. Have the faith to enter with a true and sincere heart in full assurance of faith.

Art Katz

E
elected

Hi brother Frank,

Thx for sharing your heart and perspectives on this subject, its encouraging to me to read of brothers and sisters have to say in this forum about holiness and for us who have been regenerated by the Spirit and have and intimate relationship with Jesus know how essensial is to have a pure heart because the pure in heart shall see God in heaven in the beaity of holiness and worship Him forever and ever with awe and wonder.

Regeneration it has been said is sanctification begun, when a child of God repents of his sins and believes Jesus as Lord and Savior, his burden of sin he leaves at the foot of the cross and his heart has been washed by the shed blood on the cross. He has become a new man and the Lord imputes his own righteouness and he is justified in the sight of God. Praise God!

At the day of Pentecost the disciples were baptized with the Holy Spirit and received power from on high to witness of Jesus. They did not have to wait much for a post-regeneration experience to receive the Baptism of the Holy Spirit. They were filled with right away after they were born again. They received the indwelling and the empowering of the Holy Spirit and they experienced many filling with the Spirit afterwards. There is one baptism with the Spirit and many fillings according to the book of Acts of the Apostles.

That was the normal experience expected of every believer in the apostolic times, they were cleansed and purified in their heart, for the Holy Spirit will not sanctify and fill a heart that has not been broken and washed in the blood of the Lamb. Entire sanctification was the starting point for many primitive christians in their journey on the highway of holiness, it was the beginning of a lifelong process of holiness and Christlikeness. The climb to higher peaks had just begun, the immerssion deeper into the fathomless love of God was ahead of them.

In the book of Revelation the saints overcome the evil one by the blood of the Lamb and the word of the testimony of Jesus. Im sure that these christians who are overcomers are the once who walk in the light of God and know by experience the perfect love of God that casts out fear and joy inexpressibe and full of glory.

Being in a state of grace it means you are not in state of sin, Hebrews makes it clear that we should no sin wilfully, Christs gives his saints power over sins. We should reckon ourselves dead to sin, Christ already has crucified our old man but practically speaking crucifying our flesh is a dayly experience too. The way of the cross and holiness is lifelong experience.

Blessings,

Redi

M
murrcolr

Quote: At the day of Pentecost the disciples were baptized with the Holy Spirit and received power from on high to witness of Jesus. They did not have to wait much for a post-regeneration experience to receive the Baptism of the Holy Spirit. They were filled with right away after they were born again. They received the indwelling and the empowering of the Holy Spirit and they experienced many filling with the Spirit afterwards. There is one baptism with the Spirit and many fillings according to the book of Acts of the Apostles.

John 20:22 And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and saith unto them, Receive ye the Holy Ghost:

Received - regeneration, sanctification begun

Acts 2:4 And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.

Filled - sanctification completed

Edit- Added an additional example.

Gal 3:2 This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?

Received - regeneration, sanctification begun

Gal 3:2 Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?

Made perfect - By the Spirit - sanctification completed

S
sermonindex

Hi Redi, thanks for taking the time to read my reply. I too appreciate this thread for not devolving into anything other than a fair exchange of views.

As to some of your points. We know that the apostles came across many Christians who had never even heard of such a thing as the baptism of the Spirit and were fore with Baptized in the Spirit right away by the laying on of hands, so most certainly a second experience, one that empowers the believer as Jesus taught.

Colin quotes Gal 3:3 as evidence of sanctification being completed and quotes the phrase " made perfect," juxtapositioned to " begun."

Now, lets take a race as an analogy which is often used in Scripture. There is a beginning of a race, the race has begun, and in the midst of a race you are in the process of finishing it. One can ask a a child if they have finished their homework and the reply can be that they are in the process of fininshing it. If we look at the phrase " made perfect," we see the Greek word " epitelio," which means " to fulfill further." You see, you are in the process of fulfilling the task that you have begun. One would have to have an agenda to make it say anything otherwise, it would have to be part of a grid that one places over Scripture to make it say what Colin is suggesting it says when in fact it simply means that the task is being fulfilled...........bro Frank

M
murrcolr

Pentecost Rejected; and its effect on the churches

https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/articles/index.php?view=article&aid=6804

So long as the early Christian Church frequented the Pentecostal chamber, her career was one of unbroken triumphs. While her leaders were sanctified, and her preachers spoke their gospel messages with the power of the Holy Ghost sent down from heaven, the march of her progress was steady and irresistible; nothing could stay her triumphant course. While the early Christians were taught to look forward to a second sanctifying work of grace by the baptism with the Holy Spirit as the normal Christian experience, their zeal was unflagging; their life was pure; their courage was perfect. The cross and the sword could not make them halt, the dungeons were bowers of bliss, and the roar of the hungry lions in the amphitheater was like a bugle-call to glory and honor and immortality. The Church, while it repeated and renewed its Pentecosts, was full of an irresistible energy, and moved to conquest against the powers of darkness, "fair as the moon, glorious as the sun, and terrible as an army with banners."

It was not until the Pentecostal chamber was forsaken, and its experiences discounted, and the leaders of the Church began to trust to the natural rather than the supernatural, and substituted oratory, and scholarship, and genius, and Pagan pomp, and governmental friendship for the baptism with the Holy Spirit and the Enduement of Power, that the Church fell.

History repeats itself. As Pentecost was rejected then, so it is being rejected today. Not very long ago the denominations were so widely separated that one of them might possess a great truth, and the leaders and earnest workers of the other never hear of it. It is not so much so today. Great truths overleap denominational bounds, and spread everywhere. Once the Methodists were almost alone in their advocacy of the great truth of holiness or sanctification as the privilege of all believers, a second work of grace subsequent to regeneration, a heart-cleansing wrought by the baptism with the Holy Ghost. John Wesley declared that this was the great truth which the Methodist Church was chiefly raised up to propagate. But this truth has crossed the bounds of that denomination now, and finds its advocates in nearly every great Church in the land. The list of the writers and authors in the various Churches is really too long to give. Hence it has come about that very much light on the subject of holiness has shot through the darkness everywhere, and the leaders of the denominations, and the more intelligent and widely read, know not a little about this great truth of sanctification.

Moreover, holiness bands and holiness campmeetings are becoming so numerous as to be at everybody's door. A goodly number of well-edited holiness papers and magazines also are now being published and well circulated everywhere. Thus a very considerable fraction of Christian people, it they do not have clear and accurate views of the Pentecostal blessing, at least do know that holiness, sanctification, that something discussed so much in the Bible, has also many advocates, and teachers, and witnesses among living men. A subject which God so strenuously pushes to the front in His Revelation challenges attention. God has honored the preaching of the Pentecostal blessing, the gospel of full salvation, with such displays of power, such demonstrations of the Holy Spirit, that all thoughtful people have rational grounds for believing that there is something in this holiness movement besides gush, hypocrisy, and fanaticism. The doctrine of a possible deliverance from sin through the baptism with the Spirit has earned respectful attention rather than contemptuous rejection. Light has come; and its reception in many quarters and by many minds has been scarcely more hospitable than that which was given to Him who was the Light of the world. The Man of Calvary "came to His own, and His own received Him not:" likewise His representative, the Holy Spirit, has come to His own, the Church of our day, offering Pentecostal blessing and power; and He in turn is being frequently and widely rejected. Jesus prayed, "Father, forgive them, for they know not what they do." But, in the case of not a few today, they do know what they do. They are intelligently, knowingly, coolly, consciously, deliberately rejecting the Holy Spirit's Pentecost.

The mighty Finney once said something like this: "There was a time when ministers were not enlightened on some great evils of the day, and God used them, notwithstanding their neglect of some great moral reforms; but now light has come, and duty is plain, and God will not greatly use those who refuse to walk in the light and do their duty. Show me, if you can, one minister who neglects the temperance reform, and then is blessed with revivals!" I believe, if Finney were with us today, and were preaching with the old-time fidelity and power, he would say in the same spirit: There was a time when ministers did not know that it was their privilege to receive the baptism with the Spirit in sanctifying power; but now light has come, and God will not greatly use and bless with revivals those who refuse to investigate and walk in the light and seek their Pentecost. Show me a minister who has knowingly rejected this blessing to whom God is giving many souls!

The sad signs of the times in the religious sky are unmistakable. Hon. H. K. Carroll, the Government statistician, says: "It is evident from the statistics that all the Churches are passing through a period of unusual dullness. As a whole, they are making progress but very slowly. In finances they are thriving with the country; but the results of religious work are discouraging."

Earnest Christians ought to hide their faces in shame, when an able and friendly secular magazine, "The World's Work," begins a grave article as follows in this May, 1902: "We often hear that the day of the Christian Church is fast waning, and that it will cease to exist save as a relic of the past; and during the past two or three years, in representative gatherings of the leading Christian denominations, the questions of waning interest and declining strength have been discussed in all seriousness and sadness over and over again. From all parts of the country, and from other countries, too, come reports of empty pews, a decrease of Sunday School scholars, depleted treasuries, and a waning of religious enthusiasm."

Another magazine headed an article last year as follows: "The times spiritually are in a twist, and knotted -- gotten so by the tremendous force of secularized religion and false philosophy. No wonder that the world for which Christ died is perishing; no wonder that it is hard, perhaps was never so hard before, for any one to 'stand fast in the faith delivered once for all to the saints.' Instead of bravely, but lovingly and with emphasis, proclaiming those "life and death" truths, "Sin and Salvation," which are, in the last analysis, the only essential and fundamental factors in preaching, the American pulpit, in many important centers of population and influence, is seemingly content to deal out to soul-hungry men and women, as sermons, stale but adroit decoctions of unfaith and misfaith in the integrity of the Old Book, mixed with moral platitudes, and glossed with conservatism, which is but another name for compromising surrender of the gospel verities, counterfeiting the truth for popularity and pay."

The bishops of the Methodist Episcopal Church have a wide and comprehensive outlook, and continually hold their fingers on the pulse of Church-life. They say: "The gulf between capital and labor threatens the Church on both sides, from that of the rich and that of the poor. The submerged tenth has been allowed to pass out to other agencies, the Church seeming to have gotten above its business. The Church has suffered on its borders from the thin speculations and vagaries of Christian Science. The powerful campmeetings of the olden time have substantially passed away, and the home has been demoralized by light literature and the amusement craze. The heart-searching that once prepared the way for the great work of revival is often avoided as the fanaticism of a past age, and revivals themselves often ridiculed as the ephemeral phenomena of shallow natures. In some sections criticism is extended to everything sacred, until the children are robbed of their respect for the Church, and the Church robbed of their presence. Higher criticism attacks the Bible itself, denying its supernatural character and Divine authority. While this higher criticism is limited to a few centers, yet its influence is filtered down through much of our literature, taking the authority out of the teaching and the power out of the preaching. The Bible loses its Divine authority; sin loses its fatal sting; the law loses its sanction; and God's government is reduced to a few rules concerning aesthetics. These are among the principal symptoms indicating the famine that enervates our Zion. We are retreating when we should advance at double-quick to keep abreast of the rushing events of our time.

"We have one dire disease -- Spiritual famine -- lack of the witness of the Spirit, lack of personal experience, lack of spiritual power; and the symptoms are many and various, but the disease is one ... The moral and spiritual forces, necessary for the building of great and Christlike characters have been sidetracked by the dominant forces of worldliness and selfishness." (The Pentecost Century, September, 1901)

In my reading I have come across the following statements, which, I presume, are correct, and which sadly corroborate the testimony of the bishops. In 1897, in the Methodist Episcopal Church, South, there was only one convert to ninety-four members; in the Methodist Episcopal Church, North, but one to one hundred and thirty-one. In 1898, I have read (I hope it is a mistake) that the Methodist Episcopal Churches, North and South, with an aggregate of four million members, sustained an aggregate loss of eight thousand members; and that, in 1899, the Methodist Episcopal Church, North, lost twenty-one thousand, nine hundred and four members. Another authority says there was an actual loss of nearly four thousand. It seems incredible, and does not quite tally with other figures yet to be given. But all statements are sad and alarming. For instance, a paper of last week, (May 22, 1902,) informs us that the eleven thousand preachers of the Methodist Episcopal Church, South, for the last four years have not averaged annually one convert apiece.

It almost makes one's heart stop beating to think that ministers, who are the spiritual descendants of Wesley, Coke, Asbury, McKendree, and those fathers of Methodism who swept over the land like cyclones of Holy Spirit power, are now reduced to such appalling barrenness.

But the Methodists are by no means alone in this trouble. Dr. Burrows, of the Regular Baptist Church, South, says: "The year 1899 has not been noted for any great increase in membership of the Churches." Dr. Dunning, speaking for the Congregational Church, says: "The denomination is making little progress temporarily, and even in some respects is retrograding." "This denomination fell from a gain of nineteen thousand in 1895 to less than two thousand in 1900. Never in its history has there been such a falling off as has occurred since 1894." Dr. Beard, in an address a year ago, said of the Congregational Year-Book for 1900: "There is not a cheerful page in it. In it we learn that through the efforts of six hundred and thirty thousand members, with a cash outlay of $7,000,000 for home expenses, there was received during the twelve months a net addition of only 1,640. In Massachusetts, with a membership of one hundred and thirteen thousand, and a cash outlay for home expenses of $1,630,000, there was during that year an actual loss of five hundred and eighty-eight members. At the National Council lately held in Portland, Me., there was reported a net loss for the triennial period of thirty-two thousand one hundred and three members in the Christian Endeavor Societies."

Dr. Roberts says: The progress of the Presbyterian Church is not so rapid as in former years. The real reason appears to be the lack of spiritual vigor in all the Christian denominations."

All denominations, both those that are esteemed liberal and those also that are rigidly orthodox, except those that are re-enforced by immigration, show a steady and alarming decline in the rate of increase, as the following table shows:

Think of those twenty-one branches of the Christian Church, comprising the bulk and power of the Protestantism of the United States, having their net gain decrease from nine hundred and five thousand in 1895 to two hundred and thirty-seven thousand in 1900! What could be more humiliating or more sad? It is enough to cause mourning in earth and heaven, and to wake up a jubilee in hell!

And the saddest of it all is, that this is a needless barrenness! Human hearts are just what they have always been, estranged from God and filled with carnality and sin, no better and no worse than the human hearts of other times. The Gospel of Christ is not outlawed, or antiquated, or obsolete. It is still the power of God, and sharper than any two-edged sword, and can prick to conviction the sinner's innermost soul. The blessed "Third Person of the Trinity," the ever-adorable Holy Spirit, is not dead. He can still cleanse the believer's heart in the Pentecostal Chamber, and endue with a supernatural power the ambassador of Christ, and make his message quick and powerful to break the flinty heart of the foe of God. The resources of prayer are not exhausted, and heaven is as accessible as even God still waits to hear and answer the supplications of His people. He still longs to listen to a ten days' united supplication of His people that He may open the windows of heaven and pour out another Pentecost. No Church needs to hang its harps upon the willows and mourn over the desolations of Zion; for God can still cause His Word to accomplish that which He pleases, and send the early and the latter rain, and cause the desert to blossom as a fertile field, and become the Garden of the Lord. No minister needs to go without sheaves in the Lord's great harvest-field; for the promise still holds: "He that goeth forth with weeping, bearing precious seed, shall doubtless come again rejoicing, bringing his sheaves with him:" "Ye shall reap in due season if ye faint not."

People are pouring like a Niagara-tide through the gates of sin and death into an awful hell. God has set His heart upon turning that stream of life heavenward.

Any child of God who will faithfully fall in with God's wishes and plans and conditions of success will become a winner of souls. I solemnly declare again, to the honor of the old Gospel and the glory of the Holy Ghost, all this barrenness is utterly needless.

The young men who study theology under me are taught to win souls, and to measure their success by their soul-winning. They are also taught to seek the enduement of power as the most essential condition of success in the ministry. They are trained in sermon-making with that end in view. They are taught to expect success; and they have it. Several students that studied under me one and two years ago have, during the last twelve months, led more than a hundred souls each to God. One of my last year's pupils has had a thousand saved or sanctified since he left the school. One of this year's pupils had to leave us two months ago on account of straitness of funds, and he has since seen one hundred and fifteen people come to the altar and bow to God in his meetings. None of these students of whom I have written had education enough to enter our freshmen class in college; yet they have a success in winning men that nine-tenths of the nobly-educated Doctors of Divinity might covet. One of our students has seen more people converted during his three summer vacations than many ministers have in a lifetime. While I am writing these lines we are in the closing week of the third year of our Texas Holiness University. Since the commencement of our last school year, September 24, 1901, two hundred and ninety-four people have knelt at our altar and prayed their way to God; and since the college opened its doors, less than three years ago, four hundred and sixty-five souls have thus found God in our college services. In the face of such facts, and multitudes of similar ones that I might give, is it too much to say that barrenness on the part of the ministry and the Churches is wholly unnecessary?

The truth is, the theological professors and those who are responsible for the training of the ministry, and the men high up in ecclesiastical power in our denominations, are, almost without exception, magnifying the natural and ignoring the supernatural. They are making a great deal of talent and education and oratory, and in equal measure they are discounting the importance of the baptism with the Holy Spirit.

I know I lay myself liable to criticism by these remarks. A reviewer once reviewed my book, "Holiness and Power," and said that, in the last chapter, I raised an unfortunate conflict between the filling of the Spirit and education, and created a prejudice against the latter. It was an uncalled-for and wholly unfair criticism. My whole life brands it as unjust. I am in the business of giving to young people all the education I can induce them to acquire. I urge a classical education on the young men fitting for the ministry. I spent seven years behind college and university walls myself, and I am a true friend and a hearty advocate of higher education. I will not be misunderstood on this point. But, after thirty years of experience and observation, I declare frankly, if I had to choose between all that the best university can give without the baptism with the Spirit, and an education through the freshman year of an ordinary college with the baptism with the Spirit, I should unhesitatingly choose the latter. The Spirit-filling and the enduement of power from on high will be worth infinitely more for ministerial success than the final six years of college training. If our theological professors and the men at the head of our denominational enterprises would all learn this, and exemplify it, the Churches would be saved from the disgrace of perennial barrenness.

Well does Joseph Parker, the great preacher of London, say: "Culture can not take the place of spirituality. I would make the Lord's house glad with every expression of love; but this done, I would write on the doorposts, on the roof, and on every panel the words of Jesus, 'In this place is One greater than the temple.' I prefer knowledge to ignorance, but I PREFER HOLINESS TO EITHER. Culture, when not a chattering and fussy prig, may be right noble and even majestic; but nothing is so cold as culture, and nothing so mean, when not inflamed and impassioned by the Spirit of Christ. Today the pulpit is in danger of being killed by miscalled culture. Men think that, because they have been to college five years, they ought to be preachers, which is as logical as to say that a man who has driven an omnibus five years ought to be able to take a ship across the Atlantic. The Lord continually dashes these culture-pots to pieces like a potter's vessel, by making preachers of His own, but clothing them with mysterious but most beneficent power."

The greatest soul-winning preachers of the century just closed were not college-bred; yet in the face of this fact, so astonishing and so striking, our theological schools go on turning out dainty, self-sufficient "CULTURE-POTS," and calling them preachers! If this ghastly farce goes on much longer, conversions will almost wholly cease, and the honor of the Church -- the Bride of Christ -- will go down in the dust of humiliating defeat before her enemies.

It is a good thing that it is so -- a positive blessing. The Holy Spirit resents being traded off for culture; and He withdraws Himself, saying by that act: "You seem to think that natural means and agencies are sufficient -- culture and oratory and ecclesiastical machinery. I will leave you to yourselves until you learn your insufficiency and remember again your forgotten God."

I rejoice at the concern of the denominational leaders. It is truly a healthy sign that they are concerned about the desolations of Zion. But they will look everywhere else for an explanation of their leanness first; then, it is to be devoutly hoped, they will think of Pentecost rejected, sanctification despised, and a grieved Holy Spirit!

Just now it is enough to make the devil laugh, and saints and angels listen and look with wondering amazement, while these disappointed Church leaders turn to the Sunday Schools and the Y. M. C. A.'s, and the Y. W. C. A.'s, and Y. P. S. C. E.'s, and B. Y. P. U.'s, and the Epworth Leagues, and W. C. T. U.'s, and Institutional Churches, and Young Men's Clubs, and Women's Auxiliary Societies, and Ladies' Aid Societies, and Boys' Brigades, and fine Churches, and fine choirs, and brilliant preachers, to help them out of their troubles and cure their barrenness. Machinery, machinery! "A multiplication of man's machinery; a diminution of God's power!" And God will drive us by a spiritual famine to honor the Holy Spirit. Amen! let the needed famine come, until men will honor God. Then the windows of heaven will open, Pentecosts will be multiplied, and God will pour out a blessing till there shall not be room enough to receive it.

I am not alone in placing a large estimate on Pentecostal baptism as the most important preparation for the ministry. President Finney was probably the greatest soul-winner of the Christian centuries. But he was humble and honest enough to write: "Unless the Spirit sets home and makes the truth of God effectual, all human eloquence will be in vain; and it is a fact worthy of all attention and consideration that, with very little human culture, this enduement of power will make a Christian wise and efficient in bringing souls to Christ." I will not quote more from Finney. In my book, "Life of Charles G. Finney," I give one entire chapter to his wise counsel to the ministry. It is the soundest homiletical instruction I have ever found. He held that the baptism with the Holy Spirit was "EVERYTHING in the sense of being wholly indispensable to success."

In a similar vein Rev. F. B. Meyer, of London, writes as follows on "The Relation of the Baptism with the Holy Ghost to Preachers and Preaching:" "How absurd it is for us to send young men to college to equip them with an intellectual store of classic and philosophic learning, and to send them out to teach, without insisting upon it that if Christ waited to be anointed before he went to preach, no young man ought to preach until he, too, has been anointed with the Holy Ghost! Never forget that our Lord's ministry was not in the power of the Second Person of the Holy Trinity, but in the power of the Third Person of the Holy Trinity. As St. Peter said: 'God anointed Him with the Holy Ghost, and He went about doing good.' The Church was conceived by the Holy Ghost; but the Church, before attempting her ministry, must also be anointed by the Holy Ghost.

"Pentecost differs from regeneration. In regeneration the Holy Spirit is described as being WITHIN, but in Pentecost and ever after the Holy Ghost is described as being UPON (and as filling them and sanctifying them). He anoints, He falls upon, He equips, and I ask that, before this reading shall close, every one in reading this who has been regenerated by the Holy Ghost, shall become anointed, filled, empowered with the Holy Ghost. It would make the GREATEST DIFFERENCE POSSIBLE IN YOUR LIFE. There is where you have failed, my brother. You have been preaching the CROSS; but you have not been preaching the CROSS in the demonstration and power of the blessed Spirit. (I Pet. 1:12)

"Would God that you, my brother ministers, who have been working with the power of intellect, of energy, of enthusiastic zeal, with but poor effect, may become linked to the power of God, the Holy Ghost stored in Christ; for as soon as you are linked to it, not you, but the power of God through you, will repeat the marvels of Pentecost ... You say to me: 'Sir, tell me how I may get this power myself.' As far as I know there are five conditions.

"FIRST. YOU CAN NOT HAVE THE POWER OF THE HOLY GHOST WITHOUT HAVING THE HOLY GHOST HIMSELF. That is, the Holy Ghost must come to you as a Person before you can enjoy His attributes. In other words, YOU MUST BE A HOLY MAN before you can wield the power of the Holy Ghost. There are plenty of men who think that if they could only get the power of the Holy Ghost they would be able to fill their Churches and sell their books, and get themselves name and fame. They want it (power), but they do not want Him (and His Holiness). You can not have it without having Him. [And you can not have Him, without having the sanctification he brings with Him.] If you want the power of the Holy Ghost, open your heart today and be filled with the Holy Ghost, and then you will have His power.

"SECOND. YOU MUST BE CLEANSED. 0, I do want to speak wisely! I do not want needlessly to offend you or denounce you. But I do feel in my heart that if the Holy Spirit is going to work through anybody, HE MUST HAVE A CLEANSED VESSEL.

"THIRD. You must live for the glory of Christ as your supreme end. Jesus Christ came into the world to glorify the Father, and the Holy Spirit came into the world to glorify the Son. If, therefore, you want the Holy Ghost to work with you, you must agree with the Holy Ghost to glorify Jesus.

"FOURTH. Your preaching and teaching must be in harmony with the Word of God. Remember that the Holy Spirit is like a locomotive; the Word of God like the steel rails; and you must have the steel rails of the Bible as well as the steam power of the Holy Ghost. Let the Holy Ghost fill you, but He will work along the lines of that book.

"FIFTH. The Holy Spirit must be received by faith. Gal. 3:14, is the battle-ax. I would not be without that text for anything: 'That we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.' By faith you are regenerated; by faith you are justified; BY FAITH YOU ARE SANCTIFIED; BY FAITH YOU RECEIVE THE HOLY GHOST; by faith you receive Christ as the power of God in your life."

We gladly make this lengthy quotation from this beloved brother. Though we disagree with him in one particular, as the reader will observe later, yet his teaching is blessedly true that the baptism with the Holy Spirit is absolutely essential to true ministerial success; and he admits that this baptism can not be received unless one is "cleansed," "sanctified," made "a holy man." This is the very Pentecostal blessing we are writing about. The Holy Spirit would not dare to fill and empower an unclean, unholy, carnal man; he would be sure to abuse the power by using it in a carnal, selfish, wicked way. He would certainly use it to advance his own fame and glory instead of the glory of Christ. This is doubtless the reason why hundreds of ministers pray for the baptism of the Holy Spirit for power, for every one who receives it. They reject sanctification; they will not have holiness, and God can not lend His Holy-Spirit power to a carnal, unholy man. This is the explanation of the fact that college-trained preachers who sincerely long for enlarged usefulness, and carry a heavy heart over their lack of success, preach months, and often years, without a convert, or perhaps have but four or five. The Holy Spirit is not with them in Pentecostal power, driving the message home upon the hearts of the people till it pierces like a barbed arrow and accomplishes its work. That preacher is made as a soul-winner who gets and retains this Pentecostal experience; this heavenly illumination; this Divine anointing; this cleansing and empowering of the Holy Ghost.

It matters not where a church is located, among what people, educated or ignorant, high or low, rich or poor, native or foreign, -- if the preacher and the lay members are Spirit-filled and anointed, their enterprise is joined to the dynamo of the skies; their power is adequate to every need and emergency. The Almighty God, with all the resources of heaven, is behind their efforts, AND THEY WILL SUCCEED. They have but to touch the button with the finger of faith, and something will happen that will astonish three worlds.

How ought the Pentecostal chamber to be prized and the Pentecostal blessing to be prayed for and coveted Its transcendent importance can not be overestimated. The coming of the Spirit in power upon our preachers and our Churches is the need of the hour. It would be like a spice-laden breeze visiting the lattice of the sick, or like a strong wind to hopelessly-becalmed mariners, filling their idle sails and speeding them on to their desired havens. It would create again the long-lost spirit of Pentecostal benevolence to fill the coffers of our impoverished Missionary Boards, and it would send out a multitude of missionaries to sow beside all waters. It would bring a blessed stir of Divine life to the stagnant pools of our highly-endowed theological seminaries. The Spirit-filled professors would tell the theological students less about evolution and their monkey ancestors, and show them more how to make a moral revolution in the communities where they go, and how to induce lost sinners to become the sons and daughters of God. They would teach the young preachers less about German rationalism, and more about the baptism with the Holy Ghost. They would show them how to criticize the Bible less, and how more to read it with anointed vision, and see in it the deep things of God.

The race of sickly, sentimental, sycophantic, truth-trimming, gospel-diluting, parlor-ornamenting, dudish, women-worshiped preachers would become extinct. The gushing, perfumed essays, full of the roses and poses of rhetoric, would no longer find their way into our pulpits. We should hear no more of sermonettes and Christianettes on the road to a heavenette. Stalwarts, sons of the old, heroic prophets, would fill the pulpits; mature men and women, rather than carnal babes, would fill the now empty pews. Their sanctuary-revering, religion-respecting children would be with them. The old-time Pauline gospel of righteousness and full-salvation would be preached in its glorious completeness, and be like fire and hammer to break the flinty heart in pieces. It would command the respect of thoughtful men. The Church, the white-robed Bride of Christ, would "arise and shine, her light having come, and the glory of God having risen upon her." Her onward step would be the tread of victory: she would be as terrible to the hosts of hell "as an army with banners."

Who that loves the Lord does not long to see Zion thus clothed with power and glory? What a refreshing chapter of history she would make after the late annals of humiliating defeat! Let us all turn away with one accord from reliance on Church fairs, and festivals, and theatricals, and human learning, and oratory, and fine Churches, and costly choirs, and organizations and machinery, and carnal means and methods, and seek the baptism with the Holy Ghost and His continual indwelling with all our hearts. Pentecost universally welcomed would mean the Church saved and the world evangelized.

S
sermonindex

Excerpt from the Abridged version of Purity and Maturity, by J.A. Wood, A Synopsis, 1944, (pg. 86-91).

"18. The mixed moral condition of the merely regenerate, implies no combination, or composition of grace and indwelling sin. The spiritual and the carnal have no fellowship.

19. In the justified and regenerate state, grace has dominion, and remaining indwelling sin is subjected and repressed; not tolerated, or allowed; but hated, resisted, mourned over and kept under.

20. Depravity does not involve guilt until it is assented to, yielded to, or cherished. We are not responsible for its original possession; but are for its continuance in the light of Gospel provision for its destruction.

21. The sin remaining in the regenerate believer, not entirely sanctified, is not sin strictly speaking, which is any "transgression of the law" incurring guilt; but depravity -- an inherited, inborn, sinward inclination, -- a depraved bias.

22. The distinction between regeneration and entire sanctification is not a difference of committing sin or otherwise. It is not so much a distinction in the outward life, as in the inward experience.

23. Neither the regenerate, nor the entirely sanctified can commit sin, without standing condemned before God; as every item of his law, mandatory or prohibitory, is binding as much on the partially purified, as on the entirely purified.

24. The subjugation of depravity is not its destruction, or removal. In regeneration it is subjugated, while in sanctification it is exterminated.

25. Christian purity is not obtained by the ordinary process of growth in grace; but by the cleansing power of the blood of Christ.

26. Growth in grace will afford a more complete, uninterrupted, and easy victory over inbred sin; also, it will secure increasing light, increasing strength, and the development more or less, of all the positive fruits of the Spirit.

27. Growth in grace is the development of the positive in Christian life, -- the graces of the Spirit; but not a process of cleansing or washing, refining or purging, mortification or death.

28. There is no power in growth or development to purify the heart. Inborn depravity cannot be imperceptibly grown out or outgrown.

29. The Scriptures nowhere teach, that the gradual advances of the Christian step by step, are attended with a gradual cleansing of the heart, stain after stain until all impurity is gone.

30. As our inherent and original sinfulness was derived from Adam; so our inwrought purification, our personal holiness, must be derived from, and wrought in us by Jesus Christ our second Adam.

31. Sanctification, like regeneration, is a supernatural, instantaneous work; and not a human, gradual work. Both are God's work. Both are instantaneous. Both involve human agency, and yet neither are accomplished by secondary or natural causes.

32. In purification the soul is passive, is the subject, and not the agent of the cleansing. It is active and co-operative with what precedes and what follows the cleansing; but the cleansing is something experienced, and not something done.

33. Secondary causes, as means of grace may help us to God, and aid us in reaching the conditions of the divine work; but the work itself is wrought by the Holy Spirit.

34. Growth in grace has no fixed relation to purity, and a believer cannot grow pure, on the same principle that a sinner can not grow into a saint; growth not changing the nature of things.

35. All the changes made by growth, or gradual processes are in size or quantity, and not in kind or quality. Purity pertains to quality, growth to size, or quantity.

36. That which is pure, or that which is impure may grow; and mere growth does not change the one or the other, only in size or quantity.

37. Anything impure is made clean by washing, refining, or purging, and not by growth.

38. Retrenchment, pruning, and lopping off excrescences of the outer life (though all proper and necessary) purify no man's nature. Trimming a tree, or enriching the soil, never changes the nature of its fruit.

39. Inbred sin is an evil principle infecting every unsanctified soul, and its essential nature can not be changed. It is opposition to God, and must be destroyed.

40. Until the living principle of grace is implanted in the soul at regeneration, no sinner becomes a Christian; and until the remaining opposing principle of inbred sin is removed from the regenerate heart, no Christian is entirely sanctified.

41. Growth in grace is essentially the same before and after entire sanctification. In the former, the reign of grace is somewhat limited; in the latter, its dominion is unlimited, by enemies in the soul.

42. The atoning blood of Christ is the meritorious source of purity. Faith in that blood is its conditional cause. The word of God is its instrumental cause, while the Holy Ghost is its efficient agent.

43. All the Bible figures given to enjoin and illustrate purity imply rapidity and dispatch, and teach a short, rapid work.

44. The Scriptures give the same encouragement to faith in the purifying efficacy of the blood of Christ, that they do for faith in his pardoning mercy and adopting love. Alike they are the free, unmerited gift and work of God.

47. Faith is rest, repose, and not effort, and is not difficult when the soul is in a condition or attitude to believe: when it has let go its hold of all other dependencies, then faith is well-nigh spontaneous.

48. The proximate condition of faith is entire consecration, which includes the renunciation of all sin, entire submission to God, and approval of all his known will.

49. Seeking purity by a gradual process of imperceptible growth, is equivalent to its indefinite postponement.

50. Purity, being by faith, is instantaneous -- not necessarily in "the twinkling of an eye" -- but instantaneous as a birth or death, a washing or refining; a short, rapid work, like regeneration.

51. The approach to purification may be gradual, analogous to the approach to regeneration.

52. The figures understood by some to teach a gradual purification, are given by Inspiration to teach growth in grace, development, and maturity, and have no special reference to purity, which is enjoined and illustrated by another class of figures.

53. God does not accomplish by cleansing power that which is secured by growth in grace. On the other hand, growth in grace cannot effect the work of the creating energy of the Almighty Spirit.

54. The destruction of inbred sin, and growth in holiness are not identical. One is instantaneous, the other is gradual.

55. Growth, purity, and maturity being distinct, should not be identified.

56. Pardon, life, adoption, and purity represent the definite, instantaneous, and supernatural in religious experience. "Children," "young men," "fathers," and "perfect men," represent the indefinite and gradual, growth and development.

57. Christian maturity is necessarily comparative and indefinite; a gradual, progressive process, involving years of growth, cultivation, and enlargement.

58. Purity is the condition of the most rapid, uniform, and unobstructed growth in grace; hence, it is the greatest help to maturity, and impurity its chief hindrance.

59. Identifying and confounding purity with maturity, lies at the base of nearly every objection to an instantaneous purification.

60. Holiness is not maturity, which is largely a subsequent attainment, subject to the laws of growth, involving years of time, and an advanced religious life.

61. A babe in Christ, by cleansing power, may become a pure Christian at once; but that does not constitute him a mature Christian. Christians are not cleansed into maturity, nor do any grow into purity.

62. There are "babes," "young men," and "men of full age," in a state of purity, and purity in its infancy should be distinguished from purity matured, as an advanced, established, and confirmed state of purity -- "rooted and grounded in love."

63. The soul may be pure while it is immature, and millions of Christians die in immaturity and are saved; maturity not being the condition of admittance to heaven.

64. Regarding purity and maturity as distinct in nature and process, relieves this subject of difficulties which have perplexed multitudes of good men.

65. Spiritual life emanating from the Holy Ghost, has no bounds, limits or dimensions; and the soul, the seat of this life, is endowed with powers and capacities susceptible of unlimited expansion.

66. After the soul is made pure, it may grow, and develop all the positive graces of the Spirit, increasing in love, knowledge and power forever.

67. Indwelling sin, remaining in the heart, warring against purity and religion, is in opposition to the will of God. Having made provision for its removal, its continuance involves distrust of his power and faithfulness, as well as a violation of his requirements.

68. Tolerating and harboring inbred sin, or neglecting to seek its destruction, has brought many a man into bondage, and is the fruitful source of many grievous apostasies.

69. Christian holiness is a matter of positive, conscious experience within the reach of all believers; being sufficiently plain for all to understand, low enough for all to reach, and not so great as to forbid a reasonable confession.

70. Purity is the great necessity of the Christian Church, in promoting her safety, evangelical power, and practical efficiency in converting and bringing this world to Christ. In this is her strength! her mission! and her glory! With it, her triumph is certain! Without it, she will suffer deplorable reverses, involving the ruin of millions!"

* * * * * * *
THE END

M
murrcolr

soldout2him where did you find that at?

S
sermonindex

My Dad order me an original used copy of the book (i.e., 1944). I have not been able to read it all yet, but with this discussion going on like it has I decided to open it and read it some today. This chapter seemed relevant to the current discussion so I posted it. The complete book is found electronically at the following site:

http://www.raptureready.com/resource/wood/

There might be other better websites, but this is the first one I found that had the abridged addition. I think it can be found on Tom Plumb's site too, his site is where I first read some of Wood's materials.

Needlessly to say Wood's really brings out some excellent points on the biblical mandate for a deeper cleansing of the Christian's heart. KM :)

S
sermonindex

I am sorry, I just check the link I posted in more detail and it is not the abridged edition. I suggest just ordering a used original copy to be safe. KM

M
murrcolr

KM - So what are views on the cleansing of sin from the believer, personally I used to play it safe and say sin could not be purged from our flesh, parroting what Keswick people said. (Brenda can confirm this)

Now what I mean by flesh is this, our spirit soul and body.

However during this time of studying scripture to post on here I must confess that it is clearer to me that God wants to rid us of sin, just like the leper was cleansed of his leprosy.

Acts 15:9 The Greek verb used for "cleansing their hearts" is verb katharizo.

The meanings given to it in the lexicon, to cleanse, to render pure, to cleanse from leprosy, to free from the influence of error or sin.

It is used three times in the following passage Matt. 8:2-3: And, behold, there came a leper, and worshiped Him, saying, Lord, if thou wilt, thou canst make me clean. And Jesus put forth His hand, and touched him, saying, I will; be thou clean. And immediately his leprosy was cleansed.

Just a few things to ponder, whatever you believe..

krautfrau: You say no sin yet you reject my understanding. Why?

I guess I was just parroting what others wrote and not really digging into scripture myself, but finding it there in scripture, then what I am to do but agree and believe what is written.

Edit - There are somethings I need to clear up in this post as I stated the word 'flesh' meaning Spirit Soul and Body.

With the work of the Holy Spirit completed we will have a new spirit and a new new heart (spirit and soul).

The soul which we could call (self) must yield over to God's will as instructed by the Holy Spirit, which I assume would be a lot easier than it is just know while still being contaminated by sin. However we can always choose to sin, and we will always be tempted to sin and we could fall into sin, just look at Adam or Peter, those are examples which should keep our feet on the ground.

I am sure we can all agree that the body is not evil. However that body does have desires, it wants to sleep, it wants to eat. It is weak and as such we would have to be on guard against sin.

These are my musings, any comments let me know...

S
sermonindex

25. Christian purity is not obtained by the ordinary process of growth in grace; but by the cleansing power of the blood of Christ.

28. There is no power in growth or development to purify the heart. Inborn depravity cannot be imperceptibly grown out or outgrown.

35. All the changes made by growth, or gradual processes are in size or quantity, and not in kind or quality. Purity pertains to quality, growth to size, or quantity.

36. That which is pure, or that which is impure may grow; and mere growth does not change the one or the other, only in size or quantity.

49. Seeking purity by a gradual process of imperceptible growth, is equivalent to its indefinite postponement.

52. The figures understood by some to teach a gradual purification, are given by Inspiration to teach growth in grace, development, and maturity, and have no special reference to purity, which is enjoined and illustrated by another class of figures.

Very good.

S
sermonindex

Murrcolr:

I do not yet have a view on entire sanctification. I have been searching the scriptures to see if these things be so. If you recall I participated in a similar discussion on this doctrine back in July 2013: "Can a believer live without sin" https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?mode=viewtopic&topic_id=49099&forum=36&start=0&viewmode=flat&order=1

It is hard for me to ignore the testimonies of the saints who believed and received an entire sanctification experience. In seeking for personal revival I cannot help but contemplate the need for a deeper cleansing of the heart.

I have often wondered what will be the difference in our inner being when we receive our glorified body. I think there is a connection with the truth of the entire sanctification doctrine and the understanding of who we are in Christ in this body and the glorified body to come.

Also, did Christ have the same body as ours? He was conceived by the Holy Spirit. However, if the entire sanctification doctrine is scriptural truth then did Christ have all sin and the remains of sin eradicated from his heart? In other words He was obviously sinless, but did He have the same temptations as all born again believers from the propensities and inclinations that remain in the heart, which tempt us to yield to sin. It is hard to form these thoughts, but hopefully you get my point. :)

Please find a few quotes below from "TEMPTATIONS PECULIAR TO THE SANCTIFIED, By Christian Wismer Ruth, 1982:

"It is important at once that we distinguish between temptation and sin. It is no sin to be tempted, seeing hrist was tempted, and yet without sin. It is only when the temptation is consented to, and the will yields to the
suggestion and solicitation coming from the tempter, that sin enters. Temptation is that which proceeds from the enemy; sin is that which proceeds from the individual. Hence, we must not call our temptations sin, nor our sins merely temptations.

Sin And Mistakes

A sin is a thing of the heart, whereas, a mistake is a thing of the head. A mistake is something you did when you knew no better; a sin is something you did when you did know better.

Every tribunal of justice recognizes the fact that motive determines the morality of the act. Because of ignorance, and because the human intellect never becomes infallible, we may never be saved from making mistakes; but we can be and must be saved from all sin."

"At this point someone is likely to quote the statement found in Hebrews, that Christ was "tempted in all points, as we are.” So we would ask the reader to turn to this passage, found in Hebrews 4:15, "For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin.” That is how we read it, and that is what it seems to say; but a little more careful scrutinizing of this passage will disclose the fact that there are three words italicized: "we are yet.” Every Bible student knows that this is done so that the reader may know that these words were not in the original text, but have been supplied by the translators. Since these three words were not in the original text, we will omit them, and read, "but was in all points tempted like as . . . without sin.” He was tempted as a holy soul is tempted; as a person is tempted who is "without sin.” He was not "drawn away of his own lust, and enticed,” for He had no indwelling sin; and neither should we have indwelling sin -since the blood of Jesus will cleanse it out of our hearts (1 John 1:7).

It may be interesting to note what part this indwelling sin-nature plays in our temptations.

"Our old man” (Rom. 6: 6) and the devil are of close kin, and work together. For instance, when Satan knocks on the door from without ”“ through some provocation, aggravation or temptation that may touch us ”“ if the "old man” is still within, he is likely to respond and open the door by prompting us to "give as good as they sent,” and "let them know what we think of them,” and "stand up for our rights,” etc., and thus let bitterness come into our hearts.

It was not so much what the other party said, or did, that caused us to backslide, as it was what we said and felt in our own hearts. It is that inward response to the temptations from without, that is our greatest peril, and occasions the inward conflict, and struggle, and unrest. We would insist that this inward foe may be entirely eradicated and exterminated by the sanctification; so that although the enemy will attack and assault us from without, we may have constant victory and peace and rest within." (End Quote)

This discussion is archived and closed to new replies. Start a new discussion to carry the subject on.
Archived
1 of 88 posts

Everything we make is available for free because of a generous community of supporters.

Donate