It’s not inevitable

Quote: No man is 100% controlled by Holy Spirit, if he becomes so then he will completely be like Jesus.

We must be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect, so put off your old self, which belongs to your former manner of life and is corrupt through deceitful desires, and to be renewed in the spirit of your minds, and to put on the new self, created after the likeness of God in true righteousness and holiness. Matthew 5:48 Ephesians 4:22-24

Quote: There is always some element of flesh in our work for the God.

I say walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh as they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts, Galatians 5:16, Galatians 5:24

Quote: Though the influence of Flesh is inevitable.

"The influence of Flesh is inevitable” were we not buried together with him through baptism into his death? Our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin, for he that is dead is freed from sin.

It’s not inevitable…… we just believe it to be inevitable.

Amen brother, lets agree with what the Word says.
As we believe tbe Word and break free from unbelief our experience in walking with tbe Lord will dramatically change.

I believe in Romans 6 and 8, that Sin shall have no dominion on us. A man who lives by spirit does not sin willfully. He can have victory over all KNOWN sins. But the context in which the quotes were put here are not in reference to Sin. If we take anything out of context then we can find mistakes even with scripture. The context there is with reference to fleshly intelligence or human intelligence. Even Apostle Paul preached with fear and trembling so that he may not use his intelligence to preach the word of God, instead use what God reveals to him. Who am I to think that I will not have any fleshly indulgence (Human intelligence) in my work for God.

It is also true that we will never be sinless perfect before the coming of Jesus. All we can achieve is keep walking in NO KNOWN SIN (Or Conscious sin) and seek God's light to show us the unconscious sins in our life. This is the way we are sanctified.

Can u back up what your saying my dear brother or sister with scripture?
I hear people saying these sort of things and I see what I see the bible saying.
I believe we should be walking by faith not by sight, walking in the Spirit, abiding in Christ etc And we can, but this is not about us being righteous in our own strength but rather trusting in Christ.
With love,
Andrew.

Quote: It is also true that we will never be sinless perfect before the coming of Jesus. All we can achieve is keep walking in NO KNOWN SIN

You’ll have to define what ‘sinless perfect’ is before I can respond to you fully.

However I believe that Christ was manifested to take away our sins, 1 John3:5, to destroy the works of the devil, 1 John 3:8; and as His blood cleanseth from all sin and unrighteousness, 1 John 1:7, 9; is it not evident that God means that believers in Christ shall be saved from all sin? For if His blood cleanses from all sin, if He destroys the works of the devil (and sin is the work of the devil), and if he who is born of God does not commit sin, 1 John 3:9, then he must be cleansed from all sin.

I also believe while a man continues in that state ‘dead to sin’ then he lives without sinning against God, for the seed of God remaineth in him, and he cannot sin because he is born, or begotten, of God, 1 Jn. 3:9

Quote: I don't know "sinless perfection" as a Bible term.

I did a simple search in a dictionary for both words to define what it means.

Sinless - pure, virtuous, as pure as the driven snow, uncorrupted, faultless, blameless, guiltless.

Perfection - the condition, state, or quality of being free or as free as possible from all flaws or defects.

Quote: If we mentioned "sinless perfection" to any of the Apostles, I wonder what they would think?

Maybe something like this: Oh the teaching that Jesus saves us from sin’s power as well as its penalty. Victory over our sinful nature, and over sins in our lives that have often defeated us, that is achieved by faith in Christ, and not simply by redoubled human effort.

Brenda, I wonder if your family, peers would agree that you walked in sinless perfection during the time you say you did? Or, maybe you lived as a hermit and had no contact with humans....

1John 1:8-10

8 If we say that we have no sin, we are deceiving ourselves and the truth is not in us.

9 If we confess our sins, He is faithful and righteous to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar and His word is not in us.

Ecclesiastes 7:20: Indeed, there is not a righteous man on earth who [continually] does good and who never sins.

I consider this comforting...[EDIT] because within it there is hope.

If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us 1 John 1:8

1 John 1:8 should not be used to imply that we are bound to sin, as this conclusion would contradict the clear stated intent of the apostle John. Immediately after making the statements in question, John says: " I write this to you so that you will not sin, 1 John 2:1. We should not interpret 1:8 in a way that contradicts 2:1. The intent makes it clear that John did not write this to tell you that you have to sin; indeed he had the opposite end in mind. Truly, verse eight does imply that none of us can claim to be sinless; none of us can claim to be without sin as our Lord was.

John's epistle was written to those who were being infiltrated by what we call Gnostics. They would live in sin yet refuse to call their actions sinful. John saw that it was a lie holding them in bondage. He knew that before you can come to a place where you stop sinning, you must confess that you have sinned; you must confess it so that God can cleanse you.

The Gnostics taught that no action was sinful. The problem, according to the Gnostics, was the fleshly body itself - not our hearts or actions. Therefore, John had to clarify all these issues.

The truth that the apostle is teaching is as follows: if we claim to be without sin in the sense of "I've never sinned; I have no need of purification or forgiveness; I have no charges against me," then we do deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us.

However the issue here is whether or not this verse implies that we will continue sinning. If you consider the context of First John, you will find that obedience, rather than sin, is meant to be the norm for believers. If you read the context you find that we do not have to sin.

Sinless perfection seems to me to be a concept of interest to those who regard Christianity as a major world religion, and of which they are a participant. The focus is that image in the mirror again.

There will be a day when "the perfect" will be the inward and outward experience of those who love the Savior. He has promised it, and even demonstrated it. But what He has told us to pursue is love in the Holy Spirit. He knows us very well, knows we are redeemed from dark and evil ways, knows we are self centered, somewhat deceived, weak in our resolve, stained with the results of past sins.

He would that we regard ourselves and others as new creations in Christ, living in a corrupted world, anticipating our redemption, tasting the first fruits of our inheritance as we welcome His Holy Spirit working in these fragile earthen vessels.

For what it's worth, to me sinless perfection is the pursuit of bragging rights. I would rather pursue the person of Jesus, intimacy with Him as the Holy Spirit discloses Him to me. I trust Him to judge me, to root out sin as he finds it in me, to both call me to repentance and illumine the good things He has prepared for me.

Sinless perfection can wait in the heavenlies, work to do right now and I cannot waste time worrying about the mistakes I am bound to make.

John's epistle was written to those who were being infiltrated by what we call Gnostics. They would live in sin yet refuse to call their actions sinful. John saw that it was a lie holding them in bondage. He knew that before you can come to a place where you stop sinning, you must confess that you have sinned; you must confess it so that God can cleanse you.

Whenever someone (Not addressed to anyone in particular) takes a scripture out of Bible and says it was NOT addressed to us but someone else, so let us ignore it, I seriously doubt whether that person is even Born again. That is why I never perused arguing with such people though they keep pulling my leg many times, to me arguing with such people is like arguing with blind men about color. They neither can see it but will keep holding to something about color that they have heard in the past. Same way such people will hold theology more than scripture.

Read 1 John 1:8 again, "If WE say that we have no sin, WE are deceiving ourselves and the truth is not in us." Note the term WE which means even the apostle is also addressed in that verse. Plus it is not about the past sins but about the present sins. He did not say 'we HAD' but he said 'we have', clear use of presentance here. Which means Sin existed even in Apostle John and also in the Church to which the letter was addressed.

Let me give an explanation that will not be against any scripture. In 1 John 1:8, John is talking about unconscious sins. When we are born again we get light on our sinful nature, but we do not get light on all our sins. It is like feeding babies with milk instead of solid food, because the baby is not in a position to digest it(Hebrews 5). Only those that we know sins we repent and set things right. We are expected to walk by Spirit and not flesh and overcome all known sins. At anytime, our conscious should always be clear before man and God (Acts 24), in other words there should be no un-repented sins in our life that we are aware of. This can be compared to a 1 grade student getting 100% in mathematics, this does not mean the student is an expert in Mathematics and can challenge any Maths Scholar. But it only means that whatever was taught to this kid in 1st grade under mathematics, this kid is perfect in it.

As we overcome the conscious sins, God will give us light on the unconscious sins in our life. This is like this Kid getting into 2nd grade, where he will get exposed to multiplication, division etc. Same way God will also show light in areas of our life where we thought Sin never existed. This way our growth towards Christlikeness will be gradual (Gradual Sanctification). But at any instant we are not to consider Sin lightly. Anything that we know is sin, should be hated by us.

A practical explanation is something like a man who initially comes to Christ knows if he shouts in anger towards anyone he has committed murder. Later when he overcomes this, God will show him that he still has bitterness in his heart towards others which is also same as anger. Now he repents from that as well. In future God will show him something like any unforgiven thought that he entertains is a sin. So the more he matures in his Christian walk he identifies more sins in his walk and he repents of them.

This is why Apostle Paul writes in 1 Corinthians 4:4 - "For I am conscious of nothing against myself, yet I am not by this acquitted; but the one who examines me is the Lord." Though Paul did not have any known sin, he acknowledges that he does not considers himself righteous, because God who judges him knows the true condition of him. This is what it means in Philippians 3:12 when he says he does not consider himself perfect.

Regarding verses like 1 John 3:22, where it says we should not have any sin that is condemned in our heart, these are sins that we are conscious about. John says that if we have conscious sins in our life then we cannot have boldness before God.

I really appreciate the post from our moderator in another thread to a person holding similar theology who was accusing a 'man of God' who has most sermons on this sight. Moderator gracefully asked that poster to go to other website and post if you consider yourself much holier and cannot accept such preachers.

When Lucifer was kicked out of Heaven he gathered a part of angels towards him to rebel against God. A true person living for God, if asked to leave a place, will leave without making any noise. Jesus when was asked to leave Gerasenes by the men in that region, he left without making any noise (Mark 5-17). This shows the difference between the spirit of Lucifer and Jesus.

There is a line that John uses in Verse 5 of 1 John 1 that tells us exactly what he is talking about.

This then is the

message

That word 'message' in the Greek means:

announcement, promise, the act of promising, a promise given or to be given a promised good or blessing.

Quite clearly in the context of the NT and this chapter he is not talking exclusively about God being light and in him is no darkness at all. The full message is wrapped in the versus after this till the first 2-3 versus of Chapter 2.

This is the gospel message,

I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more. Jer 31:34

It amazes me especially on this forum where these discussions keep coming around. The crowd that hangs out here must be some of the most zealous believers I know, but you keep get caught up in your sins and whether our not you are holy enough for Gods presence.

Friends, God does not deal with us anymore on the basis of our Sin/Sins.

We are not Holy in and of ourselves and will never be, thats why this wisdom that was hidden in Christ on our behalf is so amazing.

That God the Father in Christ was reconciling not just us but the whole world to himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them. 2 Cor 5:19

Its old testament bible to be continually sin Conscience Hebrews 10:2

My dear Brothers and Sisters God only looks at this one thing are we in Christ or not? He has committed all judgement to the Son as has made him the central focus of the universe.

We, and I include myself here because it happens so easily and subtly, fall from the grace of God and start judging ourselves and then our brothers.

Sin does not have mastery over me not because I am trying desperately to be Holy but because of the grace of God, which is Jesus. The more I realize that I am the righteousness of God, not based upon my performance but on the immaculate and perfect performance of Jesus, this Grace makes me live and move and have my being in the the glorious son of God.

Why should I think about my sin, my relationship to my Father is built on the righteousness of the one man Jesus Christ, not upon whether I sin or not. God does not think that way about you and neither should you.

Its a trick of the devil to keep the bride of Christ so obsessed with their sin and the sin of others that they miss completely how excepted they are in the beloved.

It is Jesus, Jesus and Jesus, its the obsession with him alone, this glorious saviour. May that be the one thing that we talk about.

I'll end with this amazing promise of Isaiah 54:8-10

In a little wrath I hid my face from thee for a moment; but with everlasting kindness will I have mercy on thee, saith the LORD thy Redeemer.
Isa 54:9 For this is as the waters of Noah unto me: for as I have sworn that the waters of Noah should no more go over the earth; so have I sworn that I would not be wroth with thee, nor rebuke thee.
Isa 54:10 For the mountains shall depart, and the hills be removed; but my kindness shall not depart from thee, neither shall the covenant of my peace be removed, saith the LORD that hath mercy on thee.

As the waters of Noah so is the cross of Christ!!!! What a God, what a Saviour

And it shall be said in that day, Lo, this is our God; we have waited for him, and he will save us: this is the LORD; we have waited for him, we will be glad and rejoice in his salvation.Isaiah 25:9

Sometimes the flow of wisdom here just overwhelms me. I feel like I am with people who haven't just read The Book, but understand it and are living in it's precepts.

I love zekeO's description of the first grader with his 100% on his math test. It reminds me of the prayers from the newly converted bikers and gang members I have heard, where with gusto and enthusiasm they will say things like, "F... You, Satan!"

Whoa, big fella..easy now! Your heart's in the right place, vocabulary needs some work!