The Holy Spirit transforms us through the renewal of our mind. Zac Poonen

Thank you for the quote Noah.

There is a book I have been reading called "Be Joyful" by Warren Wiersbe. He goes over the book of Philippians and relating to how we overcome by our thoughts.

You can read parts of it here. It's been very good to me.

http://books.google.com/books?id=IMXQU9HtHyAC&printsec=frontcover&source=gbs_ge_summary_r&cad=0#v=onepage&q&f=false

I believe heart and spirit and conscience are all the same. They are used interchangeably in Bible. Our Mind is our Thoughts, that gets translated into action. Our Mind can be controlled by Flesh (Emotions) or by Spirit (Heart). When we are born again we receive the Holy Spirit, we get a fresh heart made of flesh instead of our old heart of stone (Ezekiel 35:26). There is no renewal of Old Heart, it is a stone and cannot be melted, has to be replaced, and that is what God does. In other words our conscience becomes tender again. We get sin conviction in our heart. This is the first work of Holy Spirit, to convict us of our sins. Now our mind can either be set on the Spirit or heart which is willing to do God's work or can be set on Flesh, that always rebels against God (Romans 8). Renewal of mind happens by frequently listening to Spirit instead of flesh, this is called taking up of the cross, where you willfully deny the desires of Flesh. It is hence by day today Walk in which our mind is renewed.

Now after we are born again our heart does not stay of flesh all the time. If we keep suppressing the Spirit and walking by Flesh then our Conscience or heart becomes heard again (1 Timothy 4:2).

Quote: I believe heart and spirit and conscience are all the same.

Let’s look at the verse you quoted "A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh”. Ezekiel 36:26

A new heart AND a new spirit… so there different not the same. But lets look at what the bible says what the heart is.

The heart is the thinking aspect of man. "For as he thinks in his heart, so is he.” Prov. 23:7 Jesus asks, "Why do you think evil in your hearts?” Matt. 9:4 "For out of the heart proceed evil thoughts.” Matt. 15:19 "If that evil servant says in his heart, ‘My master is delaying his coming.’” Matt. 24:48. The evil servant says this in his heart because that is what he is thinking. "But Mary kept all these things and pondered them in her heart.” Luke 2:19 Mary thought about these things and mulled them over in her mind. One could go on and find verse after verse in the Bible teaching the same thing about the heart being the place of thought, reasoning, and understanding within man.

Quote: Our Mind can be controlled by Flesh (Emotions) or by Spirit (Heart).

The heart is the will of man, it is hard to separate the will from thought but I think there is this much difference in it ”“ the will provides man with the determination to carry through with his thinking. Daniel was told in a heavenly vision, "From the first day that you set your heart to understand, and to humble yourself before your God, your words were heard.” Dan. 10:12 Daniel willed or determined to understand and to humble himself. "Set your heart” means to "will in your heart.” "Take from among you an offering to the Lord. Whoever is of a willing heart” Exod. 35:5 One cannot obey God whose heart is unwilling. No man has obeyed the gospel who did not first find it in his heart to do so, will in his heart to do it.

Quote: Our Mind can be controlled by Flesh (Emotions) or by Spirit (Heart).
The heart is a man’s feelings or emotions. "The Lord was sorry that he had made man on the earth, and he was grieved in his heart.” Gen. 6:6 Grief is ascribed to God’s heart on this occasion but is also ascribed to man’s heart, "Your heart should not be grieved.” Deut. 15:10 The heart sorrows, "Even in laughter the heart may sorrow.” Prov. 14:13 Joy resides in the heart, "My servants shall sing for joy of heart, but you shall cry for sorrow of heart.” Isa. 65:14 Rejoicing takes place in the heart, "Your heart will rejoice.” John 16:22
In fact, all of the following emotions can be found in the heart (check the passages out for yourself): gladness Psalms 4:7, desires Psalms 20:4, 73:7, Prov. 6:25, is troubled Psalms 25:17, trusts Psalms 28:7, is broken Psalms 34:18, suffers turmoil Psalms 38:8, fails one Psalms 40:12, is pained Psalms 55:4, is proud Psalms 101:5, hates Psalms 105:25, is wounded Psalms 109:22, is distressed Psalms 143:4, despises Prov. 5:12, is anxious Prov. 12:25, is bitter Prov. 14:10, is merry Prov. 15:13, is haughty Prov. 18:12, is proud Prov. 21:4, envies Prov. 23:17, delights Prov. 27:9, anguishes 2 Cor. 2:4. This list is not meant to be exhaustive of all the emotions of which the Bible speaks that are attributed to the heart.

Quote: I believe heart and spirit and conscience are all the same.

The heart is a man’s conscience. When Peter preached on the Day of Pentecost the Bible says of many who heard him that they "were cut to the heart.” Acts 2:37 They felt guilty. Their conscience was bothering them. See also Acts 23:1 and John 8:9 for other passages teaching the same. One cannot separate the conscience from the heart.

The heart from the bible is your mind, your will your emotions and your conscience, or as we also called it our soul.

A new heart AND a new spirit… so there different not the same. But lets look at what the bible says what the heart is.

I only said that I think that Heart, Spirit and Conscience are same. It is because the Bible uses them interchangeably. For example in 1 John 3-21 it says, "Dear friends, if our hearts do not condemn us, we have confidence before God." It is the Holy Spirit or Conscience that condemns us, but here it says our heart condemns us. So our Heart here refers to Spirit or Conscience. I just gave you one example but I can state many as well.

The heart is the will of man, it is hard to separate the will from thought but I think there is this much difference in it ”“ the will provides man with the determination to carry through with his thinking.

The heart is a man’s conscience.

These 2 quotes of you are absolutely contradicting. If Heart is mans will then it cannot be same as conscience. It is the conscience that convicts us of our sins (assuming we are living by moral standards) and it certainly cannot be my will.

Also based on 1 John 3:21, if the heart condemns us then it cannot be our Will. If my will itself condemns us then we are will not do anything against our will, so we will become sinless! But look at what Jesus said, (John 6:38) - "I have not come to do my will but the will of Father who sent me". It means Jesus had a will that was different from his father. But his heart was always set on doing his father's will. That is why he ignored his will and did the will of his father.

The heart from the bible is your mind, your will your emotions and your conscience, or as we also called it our soul.

Based on this statement you cannot explain Ezekiel 36:26. If you try then it will only mean that God has given bornagain believers a new mind or a new soul. But we still face the same temptations that we faced before, even after conversion. So it means our mind remains same corrupt mind.

The heart is the thinking aspect of man.

This is not true, I agree with the scriptures that you have posted as proof, which says from a heart all evil thoughts come. But that is for an unregenerated heart. When we are born we all have a tender conscience or heart. That is why it is impossible for kids to lie and hide it. But as we proceed with our evil will coming out of our flesh, our heart or conscience becomes corrupt as well. So now out of this corrupt heart itself evil desires start coming out. That is why when we are born again God gives us a new heart. That is why a newly born again believer cannot live in Sin because his heart will convict him and bring him to repentance.

The heart from the bible is your mind, your will your emotions and your conscience, or as we also called it our soul

Matt 22:37-Matt 22:37 - Jesus replied: "‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind."

I think the above scripture is good enough to answer!!!

Quote: I only said that I think that Heart, Spirit and Conscience are same. It is because the Bible uses them interchangeably. For example in 1 John 3-21 it says, "Dear friends, if our hearts do not condemn us, we have confidence before God." It is the Holy Spirit or Conscience that condemns us, but here it says our heart condemns us. So our Heart here refers to Spirit or Conscience. I just gave you one example but I can state many as well.

The scripture you provided only strengthens what I am saying, that the conscience is part of the heart. The Holy Spirit isn't our conscience the Holy Spirit brings conviction and we are aware of it in our conscience by mental anguish and or feelings of guilt.

Quote: These 2 quotes of you are absolutely contradicting. If Heart is mans will then it cannot be same as conscience. It is the conscience that convicts us of our sins (assuming we are living by moral standards) and it certainly cannot be my will.

There is nothing contradictory about the quotes, what you have gotten in to your head is that the conscience is the Holy Spirit. I think you’re getting the work of the Holy Spirit who convicts of sin, versus man conscience. Here is what the bible dictionary says:

Conscience that faculty of the mind, or inborn sense of right and wrong, by which we judge of the moral character of human conduct. It is common to all men.

Conscience is a term that describes an aspect of a human being's self-awareness. It is part of a person's internal rational capacity and is not, as popular lore sometimes suggests, an audience room for the voice of God or of the devil. Conscience is a critical inner awareness that bears witness to the norms and values we recognize and apply. The witness of conscience makes its presence known by inducing mental anguish and feelings of guilt when we violate the values we recognize and apply. Conscience also provides a sense of pleasure when we reflect on conformity to our value system.

Quote: Based on this statement you cannot explain Ezekiel 36:26. If you try then it will only mean that God has given bornagain believers a new mind or a new soul. But we still face the same temptations that we faced before, even after conversion. So it means our mind remains same corrupt mind.

I can explain it ”“ but you must first grasp the duality of Gods work. It like Zac Poneen says that there is two deaths in Christian walk. The first is the death of Adam ”“ while the second death is death to self. When you are born again it your spirit that’s born a new, the second death is where you find that Sin remains in your heart and you go to God to get it dealt with, as you humble yourself before God you’ll find at that time that God will ask you to consecrate all that you are and all that you have to him as a living sacrifice ”“ then by faith you received the cleansing of sin from your heart.

Quote: This is not true, I agree with the scriptures that you have posted as proof, which says from a heart all evil thoughts come. But that is for an unregenerated heart.

So believe the scriptures rather than dispute them, I think it’s because you’re mixing up spirit with heart. One who has been regenerated (born again by the Spirit) can a does have evil thoughts, take pride for example. Do they come from his spirit ”“ no they come from his heart - which should let you know that your heart is not pure after regeneration?

Quote: But as we proceed with our evil will coming out of our flesh, our heart or conscience becomes corrupt as well.

Evil coming out of our flesh is a gnostic statement, but it’s because you’re mixing everything up. Think of it this way after regeneration you spirit comes alive to God ”“ however your heart (soul ”“ mind (conscience), will and emotions are not fully yielded to God and his will, when the Holy Spirit speaks to our spirit and leads us to do certain things we rebel and fight against the Holy Spirit. This is because of Sin that remains in our heart and we are still self-willed and determined to do it in our own strength without God which is simply pride. To counter act that pride we must humble ourselves before God ”“ and say God your right I am wrong deal with the remaining sin in me and give me a new heart ”“ one that acts likes Christ which will say I can do nothing on my own but only that what I see my Father doing. Now that’s having your mind renewed.

In short this is what we agree on Conscience is integral part of Heart. To an unregenerate man conscience is set according to moral law. But when we are born again we get a clear conscience (new Heart Ezekiel 36:26) and the Holy Spirit speaks to us through our conscience (1 John 3-21), that is why in 1 John 3-21, John says that our heart will convict us (us means all born again believers who have the Holy Spirit). The sins which our conscience stopped convicting us long back becomes painful when we commit them after we are born again, irrespective of whether we had the 2nd death or not. Our conscience does not remain the same hard one after we are born again. As a person who has experienced 2nd death, it is death to self (brokenness) that leads to empowerment of the spirit. The conviction still remains same, but empowerment comes to act according to the conviction of spirit. The will to sin still remains same because I still live in the same flesh. But power comes to overcome the self will.

Now the things we disagree is, your statement that Mind and Heart are same. No they are not, it is contradicting to believe that conscience is part of heart and Heart is same as my mind. No they are different. The following scriptures prove that heart and mind are not the same.

Mark 12:30 :-And you shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your mind, and with all your strength: this is the first commandment.

Romans 8:27:-And he that searches the hearts knows what is the mind of the Spirit, because he makes intercession for the saints according to the will of God.

My understanding is scriptural and based on self experience.

Evil coming out of our flesh is a gnostic statement, but it’s because you’re mixing everything up. Think of it this way after regeneration you spirit comes alive to God ”“ however your heart (soul ”“ mind (conscience), will and emotions are not fully yielded to God and his will, when the Holy Spirit speaks to our spirit and leads us to do certain things we rebel and fight against the Holy Spirit.

Romans 8: 3 to 7 clearly talks about the effect of flesh that corrupts man even after he is born again. The mind is not powerful enough to listen to the Spirit speaking through Conscience. His mind still listens to flesh and that is why he sins. Now 2nd death empowers him to set his mind on the needs of the Spirit rather than flesh. The mind still remains same and conviction of Conscience remains the same. In Romans 7 Paul is talking about a believer without this empowerment, he wants to do good (Romans 7:21) but he cannot as he is not having power to overcome his Flesh.

For what the Law could not do, weak as it was through the flesh, God did: sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and as an offering for sin, HE CONDEMNED SIN IN the FLESH, so that the requirement of the Law might be fulfilled in us, who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit. For those who are according to the flesh set their MINDS on the things of the flesh, but those who are according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit. For the MIND set on the flesh is death, but the mind set on the Spirit is life and peace, because the mind set on the flesh is hostile toward God; for it does not subject itself to the law of God, for it is not even able to do so, and those who are in the flesh cannot please God.

I think I have said enough here, I gracefully back out of this discussion.

Quote: Now the things we disagree is, your statement that Mind and Heart are same. No they are not, it is contradicting to believe that conscience is part of heart and Heart is same as my mind. No they are different. The following scriptures prove that heart and mind are not the same.

Well I am glad that we can agree on something ”“ it’s a pity you’re going to back off from this conversation.

I looked up the word heart, soul and mind in the Strongs concordance from verse Mark 12:30, that word

kardia - G2588 the heart - that organ in the animal body which is the centre of the circulation of the blood, and hence was regarded as the seat of physical life - denotes the centre of all physical and spiritual life
the vigour and sense of physical life - the centre and seat of spiritual life - the soul or mind, as it is the fountain and seat of the thoughts, passions, desires, appetites, affections, purposes, endeavours - of the understanding, the faculty and seat of the intelligence - of the will and character - of the soul so far as it is affected and stirred in a bad way or good, or of the soul as the seat of the sensibilities, affections, emotions, desires, appetites, passions - of the middle or central or inmost part of anything, even though inanimate.

psyche ”“ G5590 Soul ”“ breath - the breath of life - the vital force which animates the body and shows itself in breathing of animals - of men ”“ life - that in which there is life - a living being, a living soul - the soul - the seat of the feelings, desires, affections, aversions (our heart, soul etc.) - the (human) soul in so far as it is constituted that by the right use of the aids offered it by God it can attain its highest end and secure eternal - blessedness, the soul regarded as a moral being designed for everlasting life - the soul as an essence which differs from the body and is not dissolved by death (distinguished from other parts of the body)

dianoia - G1271 Mind - the mind as a faculty of understanding, feeling, desiring - understanding
mind, i.e. spirit, way of thinking and feeling - thoughts, either good or bad

All these words are describing the same thing, but using different words to do it. You can’t say dianoia is not a part of kardia and neither can you say that psyche is not part of kardia as they are the same thing.

Something I can see know in this deeper study of the words is that the Heart (which you could call the soul or mind) ”“ is the centre and seat of spiritual life ”“ is the seat of thoughts ”“ is the seat of passions, desires, appetites, affections - is the seat of the sensibilities (conscience) ”“ is seat of the intelligence.

Quote: Romans 8: 3 to 7 clearly talks about the effect of flesh that corrupts man even after he is born again.

Yes - but you make it sound like it the body - the ‘flesh’ is not just the physical body ”“ it is also the sensuous nature of man - earthly nature of man apart from divine influence which is prone to sin and opposed to God.

Sarx ”“ G4561 ”“ flesh the body of a man - used of natural or physical origin, generation or relationship
born of natural generation - the sensuous nature of man, "the animal nature" - without any suggestion of depravity - the animal nature with cravings which incite to sin - the physical nature of man as subject to suffering - a living creature (because possessed of a body of flesh) whether man or beast - the flesh, denotes mere human nature, the earthly nature of man apart from divine influence, and therefore prone to sin and opposed to God.

Quote: The mind is not powerful enough to listen to the Spirit speaking through Conscience. His mind still listens to flesh and that is why he sins.

I can’t believe how you just separate everything ”“ you have separated conscience from the mind and the mind from the flesh. The flesh is the body plus the heart (karida which includes psyche and dianoia) the flesh is everything we are or we could say it is man in his totality.

Look at this crazy statement "The mind is not powerful enough to listen to the Spirit” ”“ The problem is the mind (heart) is to powerful ”“ it is overflowing with pride and self-will as it thinks it can live a life separated from God even the Christian life ”“ the Holy Spirit does convict out heart (conscience) but our hearts are hard and stubborn and it refuses to listen to instruction. That’s why we need a new heart which is a soft heart.