once justified, always justified?

Controversial territory I know, but I came across something this morning which challenged me.But my righteous one shall live by faith: And if he shrink back, my soul hath no pleasure in him. (Heb 10:38 ASV)I am quoting from the ASV because it corrects the KJV sense.The KJV says 'if any man draw back, my soul shall have no pleasure in him'. The italics signifying that the translators have added these words in the interests of explanation. The 'any man' however makes it sound as though we are dealing with two different 'men'; the one justified by faith, and the one drawing back. In fact, it is the same man, hence the ASV's 'if he draw back'; 'he' being the 'justified one'.This 'drawing back' is the word used of Peter's 'withdrawal' from fellowship with Gentiles; a first step of 'withdrawal' was followed by the second of 'separation'. Gal 2. In some ways the word is similar but opposite to 'hupomeno'; the Greek word for 'patient endurance'. Literally it means to 'remain under' something. The word for withdraw is hupostello; meaning to remove from under.The contrast is seen in this section of Hebrews;Heb 10:36-38 Darby For ye have need of endurance(hupomonE) in order that, having done the will of God, ye may receive the promise. (37) For yet a very little while he that comes will come, and will not delay. (38) But the just shall live by faith; and, if he draw back (hupostellO), my soul does not take pleasure in him.The writer seems to be referring here to a 'case' of God's 'just' or 'righteous' one, whose 'life' is the product of his faith, and who might 'draw back'. So faith is not a single event but a state of heart, from which 'he' might draw back. What would his status then be; would he still be 'justified by faith' if his faith was no longer functioning?Hence my question; once justified, always justified?

That's a good link, but I wasn't referring specifically about an 'unforgiveable sin' but whether or not a person who has had faith can 'draw back' and consequently lose God's favour, and perhaps later come to faith again... and so on.The question would be what is the state of a person who once had justifying faith but currently has drawn back? At this exact moment in time, is he 'justified by faith' if he is not exercising justifying faith?

What would his status then be; would he still be 'justified by faith' if his faith was no longer functioning?I am curious how we might define "no longer functioning?" More to the point, what is "shrinking back?" If this verse is talking about the loss of justification, then I believe "shrinking back" can only mean the willful retreat from "the faith.", which is all together different from "losing faith". There is a faithlessness that many believers experience caused by immaturity, poor doctrine, or personal crisis, in which they have not rejected Christ, yet feel that God has surely rejected them. Could we say that Hebrews 10:38 is really repeating verse 29? I believe this whole passage is not rebuking those whose faith is weak or failing. On the contray I think the writer is encouraging even the most fearful of us to boldly hang on to Jesus. The warning is aimed at those who have rejected or departed the faith and "insulted the Spirit of Grace." This series of promises from 2 Timothy 2:12 comes to mind.Here is a trustworthy saying: 1 If we died with him, we will also live with him; 2 if we endure, we will also reign with him. 3 If we disown him, he will also disown us; 4 if we are faithless, he will remain faithful, for he cannot disown himself. Line 1, is identical to the promise Paul reveals in Romans 6:8 "Now if we died with Christ, we believe that we will also live with him. He explains, in this same chapter of Romans, how we died with Christ a few verses earlier. "Or don't you know that all of us who were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? We were therefore buried with him through baptism into death in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, we too may live a new life. If we have been united with him like this in his death, we will certainly also be united with him in his resurrection." This obviously ties into the concept of justification! We have been united with Christ, which, judging by Paul's explicit tone, is no flimsy metaphor but an imputed death, burial, and resurrection reality. Furthermore, this reality existed for these "believers" in Romans before they knew about it. (or don't you know that all of us...)This unity with Christ is a mystery that was, before the writing of this scripture, unknown to these spirit filled Christians. Therefore this reality was begun and upheld by Christ's power inspite of their ignorance. I believe in line 2 Paul is describing the rewards of faithfulness. If we endure we will actually do more then make it to heaven; we will reign with Him. Paul is adding to the promise in line 1. However, line 3 is the reason this verse came to mind regarding Hebrews 10:38. It seems if there is a willful rejection of Jesus, then he will "disown" us. (I know some versions read "deny us" which could mean that Christ would deny us the rewards of line 2.)If this is not talking about those Jews (and gentiles) who have rejected the Gospel in the first place, then it is a very sobering line for true Christians. Taken as such it does seem that there is a penalty for willful rejection of the Lord.(I would be willing to listen to other ideas...)To end up where I started, I think Hebrews 10:38 could be talking about departing from the faith, which is a different issue then failing faith. I think "drawing back" must be referring to a decisive rejection or abandonment of the gospel. It can't be referring to the kind of immature faith that falters under dire circumstances or other personal crisis. In fact, weak or failing faith is addressed explicitly in line 4 of 2 Timothy 2:12. Through Paul, the Holy Spirit is most assuringly explicit: "if we are faithless, he will remain faithful, for he cannot disown himself. Well, that's all this layman has...Blessings,MC

I am curious how we might define "no longer functioning?"Perhaps we can take one idea at a time. The Romans 6 will lead us into other waters that have been and can be discussed elsewhere. Namely what 'baptism' is Paul referring to here?I am always impressed by the fact that John never used the noun for 'faith' in his gospel, but always the verb. This leads me to ask is faith and acquisition or a function? Can 'faith' exist without it being exercised; it is a commodity? or a continuing relationship with Another.Although a believer may not always be conscious of his faith due to other concentrations of work or whatever... when he looks within he discovers that steady reliance upon who God is and what He has done. This would bring us into the area of 'the witness of the Spirit' and reminds me of Wesley's prayer-hymn and the need to 'consciously believe'.Is the immature believer a believer in this sense, or is he 'coming to faith'? I always tread carefully here not wanting to unsettle folks, but in almost 50 years of 'believing' I have never had the feeling that God has rejected me. I know to say so is to put my head above the parrapet and ask to get it shot at, but I can only testify to an abiding 'feeling' of His faithfulness.I return to my original question. Is the 'drawing back' of our text an irreversible movement? The tense used is Aorist which suggests a decisive moment.And while we are at it... what is a layman? do you mean you are not functioning as a priest? shame on you. ;-)

Two questions jump to mind in considering this - where is the quote taken from - that is, what is the context of the quote that the author of Hebrews is quoting (Hab 2 doesn't cover the "shrinks back" section) and secondly verse 39 of Hebrews 10 makes it plain that we are not of those who do fall back to perdition.John said a similar thing in first John - they went out from us because they were not of us.I have always understood this to mean those who do fall back to perdition did not possess "justifying" faith in the first place.Dan/\\/\\/\\

Is the 'drawing back' of our text an irreversible movement? The tense used is Aorist which suggests a decisive moment....whether or not a person who has had faith can 'draw back' and consequently lose God's favour, and perhaps later come to faith again... and so on.These two quotes, at least to me, seem abit at odds with one another. Although I am unqualified to discuss greek tense, I think the first quote is better stated. For my part I believe all of the warning verses in Hebrews are talking about a decisive departure from the gospel. Whether this departure is before or after conversion can be debated although the text could be talking about a final apostasy of both....anyone who rejects the gospel and draws back to their original state of evil unbelief. (Which in the case of Hebrews was Judaism.) As such, could we then say that "drawing back" is defined as deliberately withdrawing from God's justification in Christ without remorse?I don't believe we can say, from Hebrews 10:38, that our justification can oscillate over the course of our lives with the flicker of faith like a light bulb does with unstable current. To "shrink back" from the faith is a different heart issue then the faithlessness of 2 Timothy 2:12. God commands all men to believe the Promise and not believing is mankinds' worst sin!"“He who does not believe is condemned already because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.” (John 3:18)"... he who does not believe the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.” (John 3:36)“The master of that servant will come on a day when he is not looking for him, and at an hour when he is not aware and will cut him in two and appoint him his portion with the unbelievers.” (Luke 12:46)Can we agree that our faith itself is no merit or virtue? It is the object of our faith that justifies.... Faith is not the justifying work, but ceasing from the work of justification. (Hebrews 6:4-6) Also, (to further support a preference for the first quote,) I don't think the scriptures are pre-occupied with descriptions of the right kind of believing, or degrees of believing. I'm not overlooking James who talked about the worthlessness of a faith that is not lived out. Afterall, if there ain't smoke in the chimney, can there really be fire in the hearth? I am talking about the quality and intensity of the fire itself, which may waver greatly. "A smoldering wick He will not snuff out...") Some are focused on their own strength, even the strength of faith, as opposed to the Person and work of Him who is Lord and Savior. I personally feel it demonstrates the irresistible impulse of self-justification, contrary to mature rest, when people agonize over the right way of believing or repenting their way into justification. Blessings,MC

I have always understood this to mean those who do fall back to perdition did not possess "justifying" faith in the first place.I think most have. Perhaps Darby's translation will make it more clear; Heb 10:38 Darby But the just shall live by faith; and, if he draw back, my soul does not take pleasure in him.This was my point, that this verse seems to be talking about one man whose live is 'by faith', it refers to this man as 'just'. It then goes on to say 'if this one draws back'. The Greek personal pronoun 'he' is built into the verb form and this is what the NASB and other versions are pointing to when they translate 'he' rather than 'any man'.The question I am asking is does one 'spurt' of justifying faith last for ever?

Can we agree that our faith itself is no merit or virtue? It is the object of our faith that justifies.... Faith is not the justifying work, but ceasing from the work of justification. (Hebrews 6:4-6)Can you explain this further?Some are focused on their own strength, even the strength of faith, as opposed to the Person and work of Him who is Lord and Savior. I personally feel it demonstrates the irresistible impulse of self-justification, contrary to mature rest, when people agonize over the right way of believing or repenting their way into justification.I would agree with this but there is fake-faith too otherwise the scripture would never need to refer to 'faith without hypocrisy'; or genuine faith. Justifying faith, of course, is faith in a person not a doctrine. Many were 'justified by faith' centuries before there was a doctrine to go with the experience.I'm not getting into 'faith in faith'. The just, according to our scripture, lives by faith. This is surely an ongoing experience which is what I was referring to when I said that John doesn't speak of 'faith' (the noun in his gospel) but believing (the verb). In fact the famous John 3:16 is not talking about a one-off crisis of faith. Literally it reads as in Young's Literal translation; Joh 3:16 YLT for God did so love the world, that His Son--the only begotten--He gave, that every one who is believing in him may not perish, but may have life age-during. It is a reference to 'the believing one' rather than a point of faith.

philologos wrote:The question I am asking is does one 'spurt' of justifying faith last for ever?Justification - as you are well aware, is a forensic declaration, not that we declare something - but that God declares us justified for Christ's sake.I am convinced that "nothing is able to separate us from the love of God" - not even ourselves.Dan/\\/\\/\\

I am convinced that "nothing is able to separate us from the love of God" - not even ourselves.*Thinking Outloud*I agree with that statement, but isn't it not God's love directly that gives us eternal life but our faith in His Son that died as an atonement for our sin, which God did as a result of His love for us?Rom 5:8 KJV "But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us."Won't sinners without Christ as their saviour, despite God's love for them still "be cast into outer darkness" with "weeping and gnashing of teeth"?Mr Nath.

"Can we agree that our faith itself is no merit or virtue? It is the object of our faith that justifies.... Faith is not the justifying work, but ceasing from the work of justification. (Hebrews 6:4-6)"Can you explain this further?Good question. Upon reading my statement a couple days later I see the need to finish the thought.I was trying to surgically separate apart works for justification and works from justification. Regardless of how many good works I may someday have under my belt, I want to preserve the purity of my hope by remembering that justification is not based on my merit but upon the merit of Christ. I certainly did not mean to imply that the justified is exempt from work! Indeed, the justified may "work" all the harder since the exausting burden of self-righteousness has been lifted and replaced with love. Still, I believe that even my sweetest works are horribly flawed; and require the blood of Jesus to be acceptable to God.This idea reminds me of a quote from Watchman Nee. "If we fight for victory we can never overcome, but if we fight from victory we can never be defeated."For further clarification, I have found Robert W' description of "works" very agreeable. He has, more then once, successfully articulated works from a selfless motive of love. I believe this love motive is impossible for a person working for justification and only possible for a person working from justification.Does this help? (Writing is hard and clumsy work isn't it? When handling the truths of the Bible I'm reminded of my mom's scolding as a little boy..."Put that down before you break it!")You know, I was talking with someone this weekend about this question of justification by faith. I chanced an observation of how relative our understanding of key words are like "works" and "faith" are to our church background. For some who have seen excesses of Calvinism, they might view emphasis on faith as dubious, while others who have seen excesses of Arminianism, look at works like kryptonite to the Gospel. Have you seen this to be the tendency in your experience?Bless you Philo!MC

Mr_Nath wrote: *Thinking Outloud*I agree with that statement, but isn't it not God's love directly that gives us eternal life but our faith in His Son that died as an atonement for our sin, which God did as a result of His love for us?Rom 5:8 KJV "But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us."Won't sinners without Christ as their saviour, despite God's love for them still "be cast into outer darkness" with "weeping and gnashing of teeth"?I see what you are saying. In Romans 8:33-35 Paul precedes his statements regarding the love of God with: "Who shall bring a charge against God's elect? It is God who justifies. Who is he who condemns? It is Christ who died, and furthermore is also risen, who is even at the right hand of God, who also makes intercession for us. Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? "I think Paul wasn't just talking about God's love - but rather that God's love is the surety of our justification. Not unlike what Paul summarizes in 2 Timothy 2:13, "If we are faithless, He remains faithful;..."I agree, God's love is not the mechanism by which man attains justification before a holy God.Dan/\\/\\/\\

Ron--I'll look into this a bit more, but it looks like you may be reading things into this passage.In verse 34, Paul addresses those who have gone through persecution: "For you had compassion on those in prison, and you joyfully accepted the plundering of your property, since you knew that you yourselves had a better possession and an abiding one."See that? He speaks of an abiding possession.And then in verse 39 (which you left out):"But we are not of those who shrink back and are destroyed, but of those who have faith and preserve their souls."Again, those whom he is addressing abide.It is common for those who finish the course, who win the race, to be discouraged en route. So Paul's encouragement to see it through without losing confidence (verses 35 and 36) is quite appropriate.So, what about verse 38? I'm not sure. It depends on how we end up translating it. The Greek kai ean can be taken as "and if," "but if," "even if," or "and should it be the case that." This last may allow us to translate: "for if he were to shrink back." I see nothing in the syntax that would disallow such an interpretation, and the context may indeed tend in that direction. This would make it hypothetical: "If any of you were to shrink back, I would know that you are not amongst the Lord's righteous ones, for He is not pleased with those who turn back."I think you're right that it is not talking about two men, but one. However, that "man" is a generic one (my righteous one)...which may be why the any is added in quite a few translations. Habakkuk is not singling out any specific "righteous one."Justification is by faith alone...not by faith and endurance. For the life of me, I cannot understand how a Protestant can believe in the apostasy of a true believer. If justification is forensic and we are pronounced "not guilty" on account of the righteousness of Christ...at what point would the righteousness of Christ suddenly not be enough? Why and when would the court of heaven proclaim, "Oops, we made a mistake!"We are talking, I believe, about the faithfulness of Christ. 2 Timothy 2:11-13 says:"Here is a trustworthy saying: If we died with him, we will also live with him; if we endure, we will also reign with him. If we disown him, he will also disown us; if we are faithless, he will remain faithful, for he cannot disown himself."This is a tough verse. Surely he didn't permanently disown Peter in spite of Peter's denials. Surely he is not faithful to those who have no saving faith. I therefore believe it means that our perseverance depends on his faithfulness, not on ours. And that He will by no means allow us to apostasize.I have problems with the "once saved, always saved" attitude that allows too much flexibility in the direction of antinomianism. I much prefer the "perseverance of the saints" that acknowledges our need to strive to endure."For you have need of endurance, so that when you have done the will of God you may receive what is promised." (Hebrews 10:36) So, let's all get out there and endure....--Eric

EricYou will tell me if I am wrong, but isn't it a valid concept in 'Calvinism' that justification is by faith without works, but that justifying faith is evidenced by works? And that consequently authentic 'faith' is 'justified' by 'works'? So what would happen if the 'works' that were 'justifying' the 'faith by which we were justified' ceased?I can imagine some of our folk who don't have English as their first language struggling with that last sentence, but I think you will see how I am thinking.

For further clarification, I have found Robert W' description of "works" very agreeable. He has, more then once, successfully articulated works from a selfless motive of love. I believe this love motive is impossible for a person working for justification and only possible for a person working from justification.faith working through love? I do think there is a continual pastoral need to surgically separate the concepts. When this does not happen, particularly in 'holiness' circles there is the almost inevitable tendency to preach 'justification by sanctification'.

The works that justifys the TRUE faith will never cease dear friend, God is the Author AND FINISHER of our faith, He will keep giving works just like he keeps giving faith.Crossman

Once Justified, Always Justified?If I go steal a candy bar, get caught, and the store owner says to me "I'll pay for your candy bar," can I assume that I can go there every day and take candy bars for free because he forgave me in the past?Of course we know that Jesus paid for our sins before any of us were ever born. We also know that if we are entangled in some sin tomorrow that when we are in Him, in the Light, the blood covers. It's hard to find any analogy like the one above to compare with this issue, since Christ has paid for all of our sins before any of us were born and the ones we commited after we were saved.I think the real question is whether we remain "in Him". If we are baptized into Him, we are baptized into his death. He that is dead is free from sin."For he that is dead is freed from sin." [Romans 6:7]I think there is a lot of foundational truth of how we enter into Christ in Rom. 6.RT

I think the power we need to live right is to be found in the fact that He is "In us" If He is indeed in us, we will remain "In Him". Its all about JESUS, not us. The answer is to be more and more GOD FOCUSED, and not focused on our own power. Remember John 1:13, He saved us, not because we "WILLED" him to come in, but because HE WILLED it even before He made the earth.Crossman.

Hi Ron,I must have totally missed this thread. What would his status then be; would he still be 'justified by faith' if his faith was no longer functioning?Now the just shall live by faith: but if any man draw back, my soul shall have no pleasure in him. But we are not of them who draw back unto perdition; but of them that believe to the saving of the soul. (Hebrews 10:38, 39)It seems clear from these passages that we as believers are continually faced with two options:1) Believe unto the saving of the soul, i.e. "the just shall live by faith." 2) Draw back until God has "no pleasure" in them and finally unto "perdition", which is the same word found in Matthew 7:13;Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:14 Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it. (7:13, 14)It seems that the road of the just that "leads to life" is the road of "living by faith." The writer seems to be referring here to a 'case' of God's 'just' or 'righteous' one, whose 'life' is the product of his faith, and who might 'draw back'. So faith is not a single event but a state of heart, from which 'he' might draw back. What would his status then be; would he still be 'justified by faith' if his faith was no longer functioning?When I look at the Greek word hupostellO and combine all my sources, it seems to be a word that means, "to lower the sails when sailing into battle to cowar or 'draw back' from the fight." It brings to remembrance the passage;Fight the good fight of faith, lay hold on eternal life, whereunto thou art also called, and hast professed a good profession before many witnesses. (I Timothy 6:12)The answer to the question may be as simple as asking what would happen if any soldier in wartime were to "Draw back from the fight?"God Bless,-Robert

I came across an interesting statement in a private letter of John Wesley to Miss Hannah Ball of High Wycombe, Buckinghamshire, dated Aug 14, 1771. Hannah Ball was a 'mother in Isreal' to several class leaders and sometimes wrote to John Wesley with questions. This snippet is an answer, I presume, to a question."Hardly 3 in 5 of those that are either justified or sanctified keep the gift of God a year to an end..."
[color=0000FF]from an Memorial of Hannah Ball, p77[/color]

A man professes to have faith and shows signs of a true love for God. Then for what ever reason, this man leaves the church, gets entangled into the world and shows no love for God.

One man says, "His faith was genuine, but now he has turned away from God and is reprobate."

Another man says, "His faith was never genuine to begin with because if it was genuine then it would have remained."

Was the faith genuine? The Apostle John would say No. In 1 John 2:19, "They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us; but they went out that they might be made manifest, that none of them were of us."

John says that the person who was with us but did not remain with us (i.e., lost his faith) was truly not with us at all. For if that person truly had justifiying faith then the person would have continued with us.

I ask another question, "Can trials cause a person to reject God?" Not according to Paul in Romans 5:1-5, "Therefore, having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom also we have access by faith into this grace in which we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God. And not only that, but we also glory in tribulations, knowing that tribulation produces perseverance; and perseverance, character; and character, hope. Now hope does not disappoint, because the love of God has been poured out in our hearts by the Holy Spirit who was given to us."

But also (I am sure some people cringe when I use Romans 8 for the millionth time) God has predestined the believer to be conformed to the image of Jesus Romans 8:29, "For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers." Philippians 1:6 says, "And I am sure of this, that he who began a good work in you will bring it to completion at the day of Jesus Christ." For those who are believers, the grace of God is working in you, training you to be conformed to the image of Jesus and the grace of God will complete that work.

If the justified do not remain justified, then how can God make this statement through Jude? Jude 1:24, "Now to Him who is able to keep you from stumbling, And to present you faultless Before the presence of His glory with exceeding joy,"

You will tell me if I am wrong, but isn't it a valid concept in 'Calvinism' that justification is by faith without works, but that justifying faith is evidenced by works? And that consequently authentic 'faith' is 'justified' by 'works'? So what would happen if the 'works' that were 'justifying' the 'faith by which we were justified' ceased?

If I may answer, works do not justify any man's faith. Works simply are a result of a person's faith. A true follower of Christ will show works as a result of faith. Where this gets tricky is that people can manifest works on their own without faith. The true test of faith are works that endure.

Jesus said to His Disciples in John 15:16, "You did not choose Me, but I chose you and appointed you that you should go and bear fruit, and that your fruit should remain, that whatever you ask the Father in My name He may give you." (NKJV)

Anyone who does not continue in faith has not hope of heaven.

(Please excuse my interruption on this thread, but Philologos, I started a couple of other threads hoping to gain your input on the Greek of two passages of Scripture. Those threads are under Scripture and Doctrine, and are called, The Hope of Righteousness, and, "If any man love God the same is known of him." I see those threads are about to disappear into cyber oblivion, so, not knowing how to otherwise get hold of you, am posting this note here. Perhaps you overlooked seeing them. I guess I needed to have flagged my other threads more obviously. ...My apologies to all.)
Thanks, AD

If I may answer, works do not justify any man's faith. Works simply are a result of a person's faith. A true follower of Christ will show works as a result of faith. Where this gets tricky is that people can manifest works on their own without faith. The true test of faith are works that endure.

Jesus said to His Disciples in John 15:16, "You did not choose Me, but I chose you and appointed you that you should go and bear fruit, and that your fruit should remain, that whatever you ask the Father in My name He may give you." (NKJV)

Anyone who does not continue in faith has not hope of heaven.

I think you may have read what Ron said about "justifying faith" wrong. Your 2nd sentence is what I understand to "faith that is justified by works" to mean. In other words, works declare that the faith is true.

When can I ever be assured that I have "true faith?" Only when I see that my works have continued until the end? I don't think I can know that until I die. That doesn't give one much assurance.

EDIT: I'm asking this to (any)one who believes in "perseverance of the saints" in the Calvinist way of thinking.

I think you may have read what Ron said about "justifying faith" wrong. Your 2nd sentence is what I understand to "faith that is justified by works" to mean. In other words, works declare that the faith is true.

Enduring works declare that faith is true, temporary works (i.e., that do not endure) declare that faith is not true.

My point is that many false believers can temporarily show works that convince us that their conversion was genuine. It happens all the time. the problem is that they cannot manufacture these works for very long and eventually they “fall away”.

How long does it take someone to give up? Some might give up in a year, some might give up in 5 years, some might give up after 20 years…but the point is they give up.

Look again at Hebrews 10:38, “Now the just shall live by faith; But if anyone draws back, My soul has no pleasure in him.”
Now look at verse 39, “But we are not of those who draw back to perdition, but of those who believe to the saving of the soul.”

When can I ever be assured that I have "true faith?" Only when I see that my works have continued until the end? I don't think I can know that until I die. That doesn't give one much assurance.

Great question. My works will continue, not because I know that I have the strength to endure, but because I know Jesus and He knows me. I have met Jesus and it is Him who sustains me and will present me faultless and blameless before the throne. My assurance is not in myself and my works, my assurance is in Christ.

On the topic of justification, when you've put the nails to the wall in Christ's hand, he was put asunder and resurrected, that's it.
The same is with sin, but woe unto you that take evil for good and good for evil, that holds an evil covetousnes to his house! (Prophetes)
Let's look at the passage found in Hebrews 10, with much better greek and a pen that is graven in blood.
36 For ye have need of patience, that after ye have done the will of God, ye might receive the promise.
37 For yet a very little while, and he that shall come will come, and will not tarry:
38 But the just shall live by faith. And if he withdraw himself, my soul shall have no pleasure in him.
39 We are not which with draw ourselves unto damnation, but pertain to faith, for to win our souls (Tyndale 1526)(faithofgod.net vsion)

Hmm, damnation seems to something one would be stuck to, if thou readest Ezekiel 33 without a ravening tongued prophet wickedly causes you to forget your God, full of advoutry and covetous lucre. (Ezekiel 33:31)
Ezekiel33:18 (OnlineBible1537TRC) When the righteous turneth from his righteousness, and doeth the thing that is wicked, he shall die therefore.
19 But if the wicked turn from his wickedness, doing the thing that is lawful and right, he shall live therefore.
20 Yet ye say: The way of the Lord is not equal. O ye house of Israel, I will judge every one of you after his ways.
ANd for defense of the washing of sin and the once sacrfice of Iesus Christ
Heb 7:27 Which needeth not daily (as yonder high priests) to offer up sacrifice, first for his own sins, and then for the people’s sins. For that did he at once for all, when he offered up himself:

Amen to the liberal gospel of Paul, that is as hard, straight and difficult for the carnal to pass thorow. Understand, and become ghostly minded, let this minde be in you the which was in Christ Iesu. We eschew anyman that would rebuke us in this abundance

Praise God the everlastynge Lord

Anyone who does not continue in faith has not hope of heaven.

This is the real point I think. If someone is justified by faith what happens to their justification if they no longer have faith?

philologos wrote:

Anyone who does not continue in faith has not hope of heaven.

This is the real point I think. If someone is justified by faith what happens to their justification if they no longer have faith?

TO me that is a foolish and unlearned question, did you not read Ezekiel 33? Do you not understand Hebrews 6:4-7?
Galations 3:5-6 (1526N.T) Which ministered to you the spirit, and worketh miracles among you doth he it thorow the deeds of the law? or by preaching of the faith?
6 ¶ Even as Abraham believed God, and it was ascribed to him for righteousness.

Hebrews 11:13 And they all died in faith, and received not the promises: but saw them afar off, and believed them, and saluted them: and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth.
14 They that say such things, declare that they seek a country.
15 Also if they had been mindful of that country, from whence they came, they had leisure to have returned again.
16 But now they desire a better, that is to say a celestial. Wherefore God is not ashamed of them, even to be called their God: for he hath prepared for them a city.
17 In faith Abraham offered up Isaac, when he was tempted, and he offered him being his only son, in whom he had received the promises:

Hope in that which is seen is not hope, and Faith is a sure confidence of things which are hoped for, and a certainty of things which are not seen

Is thy faith in the revalation of Iesus Christ or is it truly in the works of men?
Shew me thy faith by thy deeds, and I will shew the my fayth by my dedes/

TO me that is a foolish and unlearned question, did you not read Ezekiel 33?

Do you not understand Hebrews 6:4-7?

BTW what century do you live in? Your language is going to be very difficult for many of our brethren who don't have 16th century English as a mother tongue.

One of the things to consider as well is that from a Reformed/Calvinistic view, a man's faith is the result of the new birth, and thus a man that is truly born again will persevere with works showing his faith unto the end.

On the other hand, the Arminian belief that man chooses God leads man to believe he must maintain his justification by works, because he initiated his faith and thus he must maintain it.

The question that is most important in all of this is, was the sacrifice of Christ sufficient to justify? Historical Arminians say no, while Calvinists say absolutely. A man trying to justify himslef by his works robs Christ of His place as Saviour, and attempts to set up an idol of righteousness before God.

And yet another point to be careful on is the mixing of justification and sanctification. A man is justified by faith, but sanctification is ongoing through his time in the flesh. We must not fall into the Roman Catholic idea of mixing justification and sanctification so that we say an unsanctified man is an unjustified man. That was one of the points the Reformers fought against, and it would be a shame to put that yoke back upon people.

Great question. My works will continue, not because I know that I have the strength to endure, but because I know Jesus and He knows me. I have met Jesus and it is Him who sustains me and will present me faultless and blameless before the throne. My assurance is not in myself and my works, my assurance is in Christ.

Maybe I should have said, "If the evidence of true faith is enduring to the end, can you know you haven't deceived yourself before the end?" Surely those that "departed from the faith" at least thought they were in. We both agree you have to endure to the end, but if it's true that is the proof of ever having real faith then I wouldn't think you couldn't know until the end.

Maybe I should have said, "If the evidence of true faith is enduring to the end, can you know you haven't deceived yourself before the end?" Surely those that "departed from the faith" at least thought they were in. We both agree you have to endure to the end, but if it's true that is the proof of ever having real faith then I wouldn't think you could know until the end.

Let me clarify myself, true faith is faith that endures to the end, but the Christian can know they have true faith before the 'end comes'.

How? Through Jesus. Jesus let's us know. For example, I am a Christian and I work, not to earn my justification, but because I am justified. Even though I have not "endured to the end", I have confidence that I will endure to the end because of the inward work of Grace done by Christ.

Are there false believers who are deceived? Certainly. Am I deceiving myself? I don't think so. :-P

And yet another point to be careful on is the mixing of justification and sanctification. A man is justified by faith, but sanctification is ongoing through his time in the flesh. We must not fall into the Roman Catholic idea of mixing justification and sanctification so that we say an unsanctified man is an unjustified man. That was one of the points the Reformers fought against, and it would be a shame to put that yoke back upon people.

However whilst being neither Calvinist nor Finneyist my own view is that sanctification in the sense of a Wesleyan second blessing is also 'by faith'. The progress of conformity to Christ, which I prefer to call glorification, is indeed a process but there is no sense of sanctification as a process in the Old Testament concept of the word; you either are or you aren't. I think we need to be sure we don't lose this decisive sense in our NT theology.

Are there false believers who are deceived? Certainly. Am I deceiving myself? I don't think so.

:-) I understand what you mean. I was pointing out in a round-about-way that certain doctrines can be bondage to a person depending on the emphasis and the "slant" it's viewed from.

Those that believe in "free-will" get accused of being in bondage because everything [i]supposedly[/i] rests on them.

Those that don't believe in "free-will" can also purport their view to be a bondage because they might not know they are elected unless they endure to the end.

Of course, both of them can't be completely right but when certain doctrines get emphasized over another it can be bondage to a person.

Then you have antinomians, which we all know are wrong. :-P

Finneyism comes pretty close to this.

What concerns me about alot of Finney's teachings is that they are built mostly upon moral righteousness. Much of the conviction people felt was because they had moral failures in their lives that Finney would say were sin, like too much sugar, drinking coffee, etc.

The effects of this are a self-righteousness so long as all your moral bases are covered, but Christ is not the righteousness that is in place and thus anytime the individual fails to uphold the moral law of acceptance with God, they beat themselves up, repent, and repeat over and over, and some fall away completely. The tragedy of this is that Christ may have never been their righteousness, thus of course relying on self they fail again and again, but there is only condemnation without the sweet confidence of CHrist interceeding before the Father on their behalf.

I don't think Christianity is as convenient as "set and forget".

Revelations 2-3 refers a lot to 'overcoming' and 'holding on'.

[color=000099]
Rev 2:11 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; [b]He that [u]overcometh[/u] shall not be hurt of the second death[/b].

Rev 2:25 But that which ye have already [b]hold fast till I come[/b].
Rev 2:26 And he that overcometh, [b]and keepeth my works unto the end[/b], to him will I give power over the nations:

Rev 3:3 Remember therefore how [b]thou hast received and heard, [u]and hold fast, and repent[/u][/b]. If therefore thou shalt not watch, I will come on thee as a thief, and thou shalt not know what hour I will come upon thee.

Rev 3:15 [b]I know thy works[/b], that thou art neither cold nor hot: I would thou wert cold or hot.
Rev 3:16 So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, [b]I will spew thee out of my mouth[/b].
[/color]

Surely 'overcoming' here means we need to hold out until our individual 'races' are completed.

I can't see 'spewed out' as being forever saved. The 'outward' suggests they were once 'in'.

On the other hand I don't believe in a works based salvation :-

* Sin separates us from God.
* Jesus paid the price for all mankind.
* Not all of mankind will be saved.
* If I have faith in the sacrifice of Jesus I openly and willingly bring my known sins to God to be 'written off'.
* Once my sins are resolved, my relationship with God is restored.

I think satan was once 'eternally saved', yet used his own free will to opt out. I doubt God designed him with damnation in mind.

I think salvation requires man to maintain a willing attitude towards repentance. If we refuse to be vessels of honour, then we will be remodeled into vessels for dishonour.

[color=000099]
Jer 18:4 And the vessel that he made of clay was marred in the hand of the potter: [b]so[/b] he made it [b]again[/b] another vessel, as seemed good to the potter to make it.
...
Jer 18:10 If it do evil in my sight, that it obey not my voice, [b]then I will [u]repent[/u] of the good, wherewith I said I would benefit them[/b].
[/color]

Either way it's best to be willing clay. :-)

PassingThru

I don't think Christianity is as convenient as "set and forget".

Neither do I. Countless times in scripture we are exhorted to be strong and persevere. Anyone who believes that their faith is like a microwave oven is seriously under a delusion.

I think satan was once 'eternally saved', yet used his own free will to opt out. I doubt God designed him with damnation in mind.

You think this is so or you have scriptural proof of it being so? Your last statement seems misleading. Are you saying that God created Lucifer not knowing he would fall or that when God created Lucifer, God wanted Lucifer to be in His presence for eternity?

I think salvation requires man to maintain a willing attitude towards repentance. If we refuse to be vessels of honour, then we will be remodeled into vessels for dishonour.

Brother, I don't know if you meant to say this, but what you just said sounds like you believe that salvation depends upon what a man does.

There;s a lot to speak on, and I believe that Tyndale English reads better than modern "greekless" English.

philologos wrote:

TO me that is a foolish and unlearned question, did you not read Ezekiel 33?

Frequently.

Do you realize I put off your question to avoid strifes? At the lesat the K.J says it.
But here's how the supereasy reading of the 1526 Tyndale goes. It is going to show that this renewal of Christ's pure words and the conscience thereof. 1Ti 6:4 he is puffed up and knoweth nothing: but wasteth his brains about questions, and strife of words, whereof spring envy, strife, railings, evil surmisings
2Ti 2:23 Foolish and unlearned questions put from thee, remembering that they do but make strife.
Tit 3:9 Foolish questions, and genealogies, and brawlings and strife about the law avoid, for they are unprofitable, and superfluous.

Do you not understand Hebrews 6:4-7?

I think I do

BTW what century do you live in? Your language is going to be very difficult for many of our brethren who don't have 16th century English as a mother tongue.

Back to faith, you're faith is in men's doctrines, laydled with precepts of men and often Knox will rite precepts for murther.
Paul will settle the conscienses thereof, brothers in Christ. Some of you were made to honour, and the others are vessels fashioned (from the beginning) to dishonour.
Yet many chosen onto health are still committing such thinges as the dishonourable castaways.
2 Corinth 10:8-13 (W.T.N.T Online Bible) (best grek)
And though I should boast myself somewhat more of our authority which the Lord hath given us to edify and not to destroy you, it should not be to my shame.
9 This say I, lest I should seem as though I went about to make you afraid with letters.
10 For the pistels (saith he) are sore and strong: but his bodily presence is weak, and his speech homely.
11 Let him that is such think on this wise, that as we are in words by letters when we are absent, such are we in deeds when we are present.
12 ¶ For we cannot find in our hearts to make ourselves of the number of them, or to compare ourselves to them, which laud themselves: but while they measure themselves with themselves, and compare themselves with themselves, they understand nought.
13 But we will not rejoyce above measure: but according to the quantity of the measure which God hath distributed unto us, a measure that reacheth even unto you.

FInally my brethren deny not the grace of our Lord God, neither let the grace of God be in vayne

Back to faith, you're faith is in men's doctrines, laydled with precepts of men and often Knox will rite precepts for murther.

Look I am 23 year old

:-?

Psalm 73: Look I am 23 year old deacon and are you a seniour in the faith?

Sometimes these threads take a trip for the surreal. Well, here goes...

.. [u]He maye not be a yonge skoler lest he swell and faule into the iudgement of the evyll speaker[/u]. He must also be well reported of amonge them which are with out forth lest he fall into rebuke and snare of the evyll speaker. [u]Lykwyse must the deacons...[/u] (I Tim 3:6-9 Tyndale)

As I recall Psalm 73 one of Ron's (Philologos') 'heroes' is William Tyndale. He is [u]very much[/u] learned in the scriptures. You could learn a lot from him. ;-)

JaySaved

Quote:

I think satan was once 'eternally saved', yet used his own free will to opt out. I doubt God designed him with damnation in mind.

You think this is so or you have scriptural proof of it being so? Your last statement seems misleading. Are you saying that God created Lucifer not knowing he would fall or that when God created Lucifer, God wanted Lucifer to be in His presence for eternity?

That's definitely an 'I think'. To clarify : I don't believe God designed satan for the purpose of being damned, although the possibility was always there. I think satan had a chance of being saved forever. I think God gives us freedom of choice but already foresees the choices we will make.

Without freedom of choice, there would be no virtue, nor sin, in any of God's creation. The Bible says the damned angels left their appointed positions. They weren't pushed.

Quote:

I think salvation requires man to maintain a willing attitude towards repentance. If we refuse to be vessels of honour, then we will be remodeled into vessels for dishonour.

Brother, I don't know if you meant to say this, but what you just said sounds like you believe that salvation depends upon what a man does.

Strictly speaking, yes. Salvation is a a gift of grace, but man still needs to respond to it. If someone offers you a new car, you still need to accept it and register it in your name to be able to use it. An effort needs to be made, but you can't say you earned the car.

Salvation minimally requires us to apply the blood of Christ to our lives. The gospel is "turn from your sins and be saved." Decisions and action are required from our part.

The Bible has a lot of passages that say "hold on", "overcome", "make your calling sure" as well as "If you...then...". I think it's fair to expect that the same attitudes & decisions that brought us to Christ also need to be maintained throughout our existence.

Our freedom of choice is respected before we are saved and after we are saved. Nothing stops you from handing your new car over to the scrap yard a month later if you choose to.

In balance the Spirit urges and empowers us to repent and to seek the provided atonement in the first place - this isn't of ourselves. We still have a role to play in our own salvation though. We can either submit to the Spirit or reject Him. The Holy Spirit doesn't force salvation on anyone, so sadly many are called, but few are saved.

PassingThru

Ron's: The progress of conformity to Christ, which I prefer to call glorification, is indeed a process but there is no sense of sanctification as a process in the Old Testament concept of the word; you either are or you aren't. I think we need to be sure we don't lose this decisive sense in our NT theology.

I think the confusion comes from teachings on Entire Sanctification and others that seem to equate sanctification with [i]sinlessness[/i]. But what I understand of your view Ron is that we are instantly set apart to God as His possession when we are born again.

Is it then safe to say that we are changed into His image from Glory to Glory As we continually remain filled with the Spirit? The image of Christ in us has to be 'refreshed' over and over while at the same time we are becoming more and more like Him (the picture is becoming clearer (as it were))? So there is a crisis event along with an ongoing 'refreshing' and changing of the image to be more like Christ? Is that right?

Faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God... Man has no natural ability in and of himself to express a saving faith in Christ. The word of God that is preached, however, enables man to take God at His word and believe the gospel. Apart from the enabling power that comes from the word of God, man cannot believe. The word of God that is preached is the work that produces the ability to have faith.

*edit*
And with this knowledge, one doesn't have to thump KJV only type positions in regard to Galatians. The ability to have faith is supernaturally imparted through the preaching of the word of God.

...Apart from the enabling power that comes from the word of God, man cannot believe...

This is true, but man still needs to respond to it. Men go to hell because they [b]choose[/b] to reject the gospel despite being granted the power to believe.

[color=000099]
Rom 1:20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; [b]so that they are without excuse[/b]:
Rom 1:21 Because that, [b]when they [u]knew[/u] God, they glorified him not as God[/b], neither were thankful;2168 but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.
...
Rom 2:4 Or [b]despisest[/b] thou the riches of his goodness and forbearance and longsuffering; [b]not knowing that the goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance[/b]?
...
Rom 2:6 Who [b]will[/b] render to [b]every[/b] man [b]according to his deeds[/b]:
...
Rom 2:8 But unto them that are contentious, [b]and do not obey the truth[/b], but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,
...
Rom 2:10 But glory, honor, and peace, to every man that [b]worketh[/b] good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:
Rom 2:11 For there is no respect of persons with God.
[/color]

Salvation by a purely intellectual belief, without the need for a response or any input from man's side, would be involuntary. The punishment of non believers would be unjust - they didn't get a chance to do otherwise.

PassingThru

I'd encourage those of you who do believe that we are either pre-destinated (In the Calvinistic term) or once-saved-allways-saved to take a look at what the early church taught. They have some good insites into the heart of God and the scriptures (i'm not saying their word is on the same level as the Bible though, so don't get me wrong :-) ) on these issues.

i personally have been really blessed by their commentaries (spelling???) and am deeply challenged when i read about their lives of divition to Jesus.

here's a good rescource website for it...
www.scrollpublishing.com

or check out some sermons about these subjects on:

www.charityministries.org

i'd highly recommend both these places. The only downfall to the first is that it costs money... :-o

God Bless you all as you continue to keep your hearts open to God's will and plan...

-nathan

"Hence my question; once justified, always justified?"

The answer is obvious--you can't lose your salvation, but you can walk away from it.

Once you are a saint you will always be God's child, nothing can stop you from going to heaven--God promiced.

However, just because you are a saint--doesn't mean that you don't have a choice anymore. No choice means no freedom, no choice means no love. You are a human--capable of choice, freedom, love. And until you die you may still walk away from God and ressurect the body of death again.

Every true Christian will agree with me when I say that absolutely nothing can seperate a saint from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord. (Romans 8:35-39) And Satan Knows this.

However, Satan's plan is to use suffering, riches, part-truths to try to persuade you to change your mind away from God. To beguile you away from the will of God. Satan did this with Eve, and he did it with Jesus.

And if you yield to sin, like David with Bathsheba (II Samuel 11:1-12:14), then you are in danger of judgement--you can't expect to go to heaven and you can't expect for God to love you--and you must repent and turn to God to save you from your sin and restore you. But if you give up your birthright as a saint, like Esau (Genesis 25:29-34), then you are doing the opposite of being born again of God, then for sure you will die and go to hell unless you repent and turn to God to save you from your sins.

Now the world would persuade you that sin isn't that bad and you don't have to get all "religious" to be good.
But the truth is that sin is worse than you think--peoples' lives depend on your every action.
And if you are a saint and you study to be excellent at winning souls to Christ and you live your life in a way that is most useful to God and man, who cares that they call you religious? You shall have the better resurection.
And if you indeed live your life so that you can say with Paul, "I am pure from the blood of all men. For I have not shunned to declare unto you all the counsel of God" (Acts 20:26-27) If you can honestly say that at Judgement Day in front of God and the whole world, what does it matter that you were called "religious"? What does it matter that anything bad like that happens to you?

Remember, if you will live godly in Christ Jesus, you WILL suffer persecution, and you will receive the reward.

But if you do not live godly in Christ Jesus, then you should NEVER expect to go to heaven when you die. You must repent and turn to God, and cry to Jesus to have mercy on you and save you from your sins. And he will set you free and you shall be free indeed.

Amen ex-atheist. Well said that we cannot "loose" our salvation, but that we can walk away from it.

i'd also like to point to a scripture that is often neglected in the discussion of once saved always saved:

Rev 3:5 He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.

If He won't blot it out if they would overcome, then that means that He was going to if they did not. i think that this is as clear a scripture as any, from the mouth of our Lord Himself, clearly stating that if one does not overcome, his name will be blotted out of the Book of Life. If it can be blotted out, that means it was in there at one point. This verse also touches on predestination... think about it for a while.

Let us walk worthy of our calling, brethren.

In Christ,
-nathan

However, Satan's plan is to use suffering, riches, part-truths to try to persuade you to change your mind away from God. To beguile you away from the will of God. Satan did this with Eve, and he did it with Jesus.

Another good example is the account of Balaam. God had a good destiny in store for Israel :-

[color=000099]
Jos 24:10 But I would not hearken unto Balaam; therefore he blessed, you still: so I delivered you out of his hand.
[/color]

Despite being destined for God's protection, they accepted sin and were cursed.

PassingThru

If He won't blot it out if they would overcome, then that means that He was going to if they did not. i think that this is as clear a scripture as any, from the mouth of our Lord Himself, clearly stating that if one does not overcome, his name will be blotted out of the Book of Life. If it can be blotted out, that means it was in there at one point. This verse also touches on predestination... think about it for a while.

Good point.

PassingThru

Who is the one that overcometh?

1Jo 5:4 For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, [even] our faith.

The birthing of Jesus Christ in the believer is the One that overcame and is still overcoming in all believers and they are the ones that are overcoming the world.

1Jo 5:5 Who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God?

Rev 2:7 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of
God.

Who gives us ears to hear? John 14:26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

Who is the Tree of Life? Wisdom;
1 Corinthians 1:30 But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption:

Rev 2:11 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; He that overcometh shall not be hurt of the second death.

Who is He that overcometh? Jesus Christ in you the "Hope of Glory".

Rev 2:17 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the hidden manna, and will give him a white stone, and in the stone a new name written, which no man knoweth saving he that receiveth [it].

Who is the hidden Manna? "eat my flesh and drink my blood"

Rev 2:26 And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations:

Who's Works?

Rev 3:5 He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.

Rev 3:12 Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, [which is] new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and [I will write upon him] my new name.

Rev 3:21 To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne.

Who overcame and who overcomes in Christ and sits with Christ in the Heavenly Places?
Eph 1:3 Blessed [be] the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly [places] in Christ:

Eph 1:20 Which he wrought in Christ, when he raised him from the dead, and set [him] at his own right hand in the heavenly [places],

Eph 2:6 And hath raised [us] up together, and made [us] sit together in heavenly [places] in Christ Jesus:

Eph 3:10 To the intent that now unto the principalities and powers in heavenly [places] might be known by the church the manifold wisdom of God,

Rev 21:7 He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son.

We don't overcome. It is the Christ in us that overcomes by His birth of Incorruptable Seed of God the Father, that Seed is the Word of God.
Who is the Word of God?

John 1:1-4 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. The same was in the beginning with God. All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made. In him was life; and the life was the light of men.

Who has overcome? Jhn 16:33 These things I have spoken unto you, that in Me ye might have peace. In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world.

In Who? Christ.

In Christ: Phillip

I am placing this on it's own thread, as I think the question must be explored not by justification, but in the sense of grace, since obviously, despite the many posts on the other thread, it just not getting through.

Justification is what happened to us by Christ's actions on the cross. But grace by faith is a gift.

staff wrote:
.... but below is just your own personal belief their is as much arguement for "once saved always saved "as to the arguement of you can lose your're salvation...I am not saying that sinning has no consequences,nor I am saying that you can't lose rewards but I am saying "where sin abounds grace abounds even more" and it takes alot to lose your're salvation if at all possible.
rgds staff

Dear Staff,

Once saved, always saved, is true for those that move forward in the Holy Spirit, growing in grace, and ripening into spiritual maturity.

But that Grace is very easily lost.

[color=993300]Romans 2
1. Therefore thou art inexcusable, O man, whosoever thou art that judgest: for wherein thou judgest another, thou condemnest thyself; for thou that judgest doest the same things.
2. But we are sure that the judgment of God is according to truth against them which commit such things.
3. And thinkest thou this, O man, that judgest them which do such things, and doest the same, that thou shalt escape the judgment of God?
[u]5. But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God;[/u]
6. Who will render to every man according to his deeds:
7. To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:
8. But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,
9. Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;
10. But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:
11. For there is no respect of persons with God.
12. For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law;
13. (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.
14. For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:
15. Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another;)
16. In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel.[/color]

Grace alone saves us through Jesus Christ, but alas, it is so easy to become complacent, and to stop walking in faith.

At that point, one become particularly vulnerable to the Evil One, who with lies and temptations, will seek to turn the complacent away from their first love of Jesus.

And one cannot stand still even in grace. Unless one walks forward, strengthening the faith walk, and growing in gifts of the Holy Spirit, and reaping the fruit there of, in patience, kindness, humility, endurance, joy and love, sowing into other lives what has been sown into yours, you become on the the foolish virgins, the unprofitable servent, cast into utter darkness, and judged and found wanting at the end of the Tribulation.

[color=993300]Matthew 25
1. Then shall the kingdom of heaven be likened unto ten virgins, which took their lamps, and went forth to meet the bridegroom.
2. And five of them were wise, and five were foolish.
3. They that were foolish took their lamps, and took no oil with them:
4. But the wise took oil in their vessels with their lamps.
5. While the bridegroom tarried, they all slumbered and slept.
6. And at midnight there was a cry made, Behold, the bridegroom cometh; go ye out to meet him.
7. Then all those virgins arose, and trimmed their lamps.
8. And the foolish said unto the wise, Give us of your oil; for our lamps are gone out.
9. But the wise answered, saying, Not so; lest there be not enough for us and you: but go ye rather to them that sell, and buy for yourselves.
10. And while they went to buy, the bridegroom came; and they that were ready went in with him to the marriage: and the door was shut.
11. Afterward came also the other virgins, saying, Lord, Lord, open to us.
12. But he answered and said, Verily I say unto you, I know you not.
13. Watch therefore, for ye know neither the day nor the hour wherein the Son of man cometh.
14. For the kingdom of heaven is as a man travelling into a far country, who called his own servants, and delivered unto them his goods.
15. And unto one he gave five talents, to another two, and to another one; to every man according to his several ability; and straightway took his journey.
16. Then he that had received the five talents went and traded with the same, and made them other five talents.
17. And likewise he that had received two, he also gained other two.
18. But he that had received one went and digged in the earth, and hid his lord's money.
19. After a long time the lord of those servants cometh, and reckoneth with them.
20. And so he that had received five talents came and brought other five talents, saying, Lord, thou deliveredst unto me five talents: behold, I have gained beside them five talents more.
21. His lord said unto him, Well done, thou good and faithful servant: thou hast been faithful over a few things, I will make thee ruler over many things: enter thou into the joy of thy lord.
22. He also that had received two talents came and said, Lord, thou deliveredst unto me two talents: behold, I have gained two other talents beside them.
23. His lord said unto him, Well done, good and faithful servant; thou hast been faithful over a few things, I will make thee ruler over many things: enter thou into the joy of thy lord.
24. Then he which had received the one talent came and said, Lord, I knew thee that thou art an hard man, reaping where thou hast not sown, and gathering where thou hast not strawed:
25. And I was afraid, and went and hid thy talent in the earth: lo, there thou hast that is thine.
26. His lord answered and said unto him, Thou wicked and slothful servant, thou knewest that I reap where I sowed not, and gather where I have not strawed:
27. Thou oughtest therefore to have put my money to the exchangers, and then at my coming I should have received mine own with usury.
28. Take therefore the talent from him, and give it unto him which hath ten talents.
29. For unto every one that hath shall be given, and he shall have abundance: but from him that hath not shall be taken away even that which he hath.
30. And cast ye the unprofitable servant into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
31. When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:
32. And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:
33. And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.
34. Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:
35. For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in:
36. Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me.
37. Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink?
38. When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee?
39. Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee?
40. And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.
41. Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:
42. For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink:
43. I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not.
44. Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee?
45. Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me.
46. And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.
[/color]

It is not enough to be saved, and live under grace. Yes, there are only the laws of love to follow, and the gifts of the Holy Spirit to obtain, and use, to the glory of God.

But once you stand still in Jesus, you are in grave danger.

Yes, it may be possible to still receive one's salvation and do nothing over and above what Christ has done, for all our righteousness is in Him.

But the moment one stops going forward, you become prey for the one that seeks to devour you.
The devil is wise in the way of decit, and confusion. And oh, how easy it is to be turned around in your path, and find yourself, convinced that grace will save you, as you walk farther and farther away from Jesus.

And if you turn your back on the Lord, not in the foolish innocence of the newly born in Christ, but of the self satisfied Laodicean Church, who believes they are forever safe, no matter that they only worship themselves and their desires, are they not at risk of grieving the Holy Spirit away completely, and having their consciences seared?

Even pastors and teachers can lead people astray, else the state of the Christian Church in America would not be crumbling. And those that do not seek their Bibles early and often, who do not pray, who do not seek the guidance of the Holy Spirit, and the protection of God and His angels, can they not go beyond grace into depravity?

Do not speak from opinion only, but search the scriptures.

And believe me, I would be delighted to be proved wrong.

Blessings,

Forrest

I think the confusion comes from teachings on Entire Sanctification and others that seem to equate sanctification with sinlessness. But what I understand of your view Ron is that we are instantly set apart to God as His possession when we are born again.

Personally, I do not preach second-blessing holiness. I believe in it in the sense that I know many who have experienced a crisis experience subsequent to their initial encounter with God, but I don't preach it as a route-map.

My definition of regeneration and its consequence in sanctification shares some common ground with the Calvinists in that I see it as a comprehensive transformation from death to life. However it differs from the Calvinists in that I see many possible steps including repentance and genuine faith as prerequisites of regeneration rather than its consequence.

If you take the general concepts of regeneration and sanctification as taught by classical holiness movements like the Methodists and the Salvation Army and merge them into one concept you have what I mean when I talk about regeneration.

For several generations now evangelical Christianity has adopted a model of 'regeneration' in which 'decision' is equated with 'regeneration'. It incorporates a whole methodology of getting people to that decision which I don't think has any kind of biblical basis. We then have people who have 'decided' who subsequently have a much deeper experience of God which they variously label as 'making Jesus Lord' or 'sanctification' or 'baptism in the Spirit'.

We have narrowed 'the beginning' to single points in time whereas 'the beginning' can sometimes embrace a considerable period of time and many separate experiences of God. I notice, for example, that Peter refers to 'the beginning' in...“And as I began to speak, the Holy Ghost fell on them, as on us at the beginning.” (Acts 11:15 KJVS)...but he is not referring to his calling from his nets but to his receiving of the Spirit. The events which led up to this are also part of the beginning. I am reminded of Churchill's famous speech before at Lord Mayor's Luncheon, Mansion House following the victory at El Alameinin North Africa, London, 10 November 1942, "This is not the end. It is not even the beginning of the end. But it is, perhaps, the end of the beginning." I see the conscious receiving of the Holy Spirit as 'not the end' and 'not the beginning of the end' but.. as the 'end of the beginning'.

I do not see how anyone can be regenerated without receiving the 'Spirit of Life in Christ Jesus' so I see regeneration, sanctification and baptism-in-Spirit as simultaneous terms. Please notice I do not say equivalent or synonymous.

I believe in a beginning which is a genuine new start in which 'old things are passed away and all things become new' but I believe even the new has to be renewed...“and have put on the new man, that is being renewed unto knowledge after the image of him that created him:” (Colossians 3:10 ASV) The ASV here captures the ongoing renewing process of ever increasing likeness to 'the image of him'.

I see too that genuine New Testament salvation is the outcome of the crisis of regeneration AND the process of this renewing...“Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;” (Titus 3:5 KJVS)...and this I see not as two separate events but one event which has a beginning and a continuation.

Does that make my view clearer or more obscure? ;-)

Hey Christinyou,

i appreciate your thoughts, but i still can't agree... you see, in the grammerical sense, Christ is not referring to Himself in those verses in Revelation, if yout ake it in the context, He is speaking about the believers, not Himself. i'm not saying that it is by our strength, NOT AT ALL. i am a firm beliver and practicer of abiding in Christ, and relying on Him for my every need, etc. Just ask anyone who knows me :-)

But we have to make the choices every day to "walk in the Spirit" and not to "Fullfill the lusts of the flesh" It is our own choice, but once we have chosen to submit to God's will, then He can pour the power of His Spirit throught us.

To say that Christ is talking of Himself in the verse in Revelation there is to be contexturally incorrect, and also opens the door for weaker believers (note, i didn't say ALL) to give into the flesh and excuse it by saying "Well, Christ isn't giving me strength sufficient for this tempation" and there by "falling from grace" and concerning the faith have "made shipwreck".

Let's be careful to not use other scriptures to change the context of one verse... remember:

"Cain slew his brother able... go and do thou likewise" !!! :-? :-? :-? :-o :-o :-o Totally scripture, but TOTALLY out of context!!

:-)

God bless.
-nathan

Ron's: Does that make my view clearer or more obscure?

I don't know it reminds me of the story you said of the Daffodils; "At that price it's hardly worth not buying any." (Or something to that effect). :-P

I am understanding you to say that a person may go through a series of steps to come to genuine regeneration. Just like the Disciples walked with the Lord and had not yet known the Baptism in the Spirit. They would have been justified at this point because they followed Him by faith. But when He ascended and the Spirit came they were regenerated + sanctified + baptized into Christ by the Holy Spirit. This experience would transform them into new creatures. The old passed away and all became new at this point. From there on it was up to them to continually seek the Lord by faith for ongoing infillings. The ongoing infillings would have continually refined and refreshed them into the image of Christ. How is that? 8-)

From there on it was up to them to continually seek the Lord by faith for ongoing infillings. The ongoing infillings would have continually refined and refreshed them into the image of Christ. How is that?

Slipping into pedant mode briefly... the 'be being filled' is a process I am sure, but there are some events recorded in the Acts where individuals and groups of people experienced a 'filling' which was distinct from either Baptism-in-Spirit or the 'be being filled' experience.

remaining in pedant mode...
refining? now what do you have in mind here?

Ok- once again... The bible teaches that when God saves a man THAT MAN WILL BE SAVED in the last day- otherwise that man was never saved.

1 John 3:6 "Whoever (unrepentantly bathes in) sins has neither seen Him nor known Him."

1 Peter 1:4, 5 "4 to an inheritance incorruptible and undefiled and that does not fade away, reserved in heaven for you, 5 who are kept by the power of God through faith for salvation ready to be revealed in the last time."

John 3:16 "that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life."

John 3:36 "He who believes in the Son has everlasting life;"

John 5:24 "Most assuredly, I say to you, he who hears My word and believes in Him who sent Me has everlasting life, and shall not come into judgment, but has passed from death into life."

1 John 5:13 "These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, that you may know that you have eternal life,[a] and that you may continue to believe in the name of the Son of God."

John 6:39 "This is the will of the Father who sent Me, that of all He has given Me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up at the last day."

John 10:28-29 "28 And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand. 29 My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of My Father's hand."

Eph 1:13, 14 "having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise,"

Phil 1:6 "6 being confident of this very thing, that He who has begun a good work in you will complete it until the day of Jesus Christ;"

Romans 6:14 "14 For sin shall not have dominion over you, for you are not under law but under grace."

Phil 2:13 "for it is God who works in you both to will and to do for His good pleasure."

1 John 2:19 "19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us; but they went out that they might be made manifest, that none of them were of us."

Romans 8:38-39 "38 For I am persuaded that neither death nor life, nor angels nor principalities nor powers, nor things present nor things to come, 39 nor height nor depth, nor any other created thing, shall be able to separate us from the love of God which is in Christ Jesus our Lord."

Let me explain...

Philippians 1:6
"being confident of this very thing, that He who has begun a good work in you will complete it until the day of Jesus Christ" IT IS CHRIST WHO BEGAN.

Phil 2:12-13 "Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling; 13 for it is God who works in you both to will and to do for His good pleasure." IT IS GOD WHO WORKS.

1 John 2:19
"They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us; but they went out that they might be made manifest, that none of them were of us." All who have ever fallen away(permanently) were never saved in the first place.

******If you are TRULY saved(justified) you will continue being saved(sanctified) and will finally be saved(glorified).

_______________________________________________
1 John Cpts 2 & 3

"3 Now by this we know that we know Him, if we keep His commandments. 4 He who says, "I know Him," and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him. 5 But whoever keeps His word, truly the love of God is perfected in him. By this we know that we are in Him. 6 He who says he abides in Him ought himself also to walk just as He walked."

"4 Whoever commits(pratices) sin also commits lawlessness, and sin is lawlessness. 5 And you know that He was manifested to take away our sins, and in Him there is no sin. 6 Whoever abides in Him does not sin. Whoever sins has neither seen Him nor known Him.
7 Little children, let no one deceive you. He who practices righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous. 8 He who sins is of the devil, for the devil has sinned from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that He might destroy the works of the devil. 9 Whoever has been born of God does not sin, for His seed remains in him; and he cannot sin, because he has been born of God."
________________________________________________

God hates sin and somebody who loves sin consequently hates God and is lost. If you are saved you will strive to be holy.

1 Peter 1:16
"because it is written, "Be holy, for I am holy.""

Hebrews 10:29
Of how much worse punishment, do you suppose, will he be thought worthy who has trampled the Son of God underfoot, counted the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified a common thing, and insulted the Spirit of grace?

A real conversion is when somebody REPENTS of all thier sin (by the power of God). Turns away from all of it and experiences a radicaly changed life in love for God. If they don't perservere they were not saints. If somebody lives in and practices sin, they are lost.

Its not that by your works you are saved but if you are saved you have works! Otherwise you have a dead faith!

James 2:20
"But do you want to know, O foolish man, that faith without works is dead?"

James 2:26
"For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also."

"Once saved always saved" This phrase is devastating to people who twist things to thier own destruction. The question really is...

2 Corinthians 13:5
"Examine yourselves as to whether you are in the faith. Test yourselves. Do you not know yourselves, that Jesus Christ is in you?—unless indeed you are disqualified."

2 Peter 1:10
"Therefore, brethren, be even more diligent to make your call and election sure, for if you do these things you will never stumble"

WERE YOU SAVED? DID YOU REALLY CHANGE? ARE YOU LIVING IN SIN? DO YOU PRACTICE UNRIGHTEOUSNESS? HAVE YOU BEEN SAVED?????

Repent, believe, have faith in God, trust Christ's sacrifice, be "Born Again" (or regenerated), follow Christ, obey God, love God, know God, seek God, fear God all the days of your life. Do all these things with all your heart, mind, soul and strength. Salvation is by Grace, through faith, in Christ Alone. Be converted! (Provided by God)
________________________________________________
John 10:29
Romans 8:38-39
Ephesians 1:13-14

"Unless I am convinced by Scripture and by plain reason and not by Popes and councils who have so often contradicted themselves, my conscience is captive to the word of God. To go against conscience is neither right nor safe. I cannot and I will not recant. Here I stand. I can do no other. God help me." -Martin Luther

remaining in pedant mode...
refining? now what do you have in mind here?

Romans 12:2 primarily. I don't know if you would agree with me here, it just seems that as believers we are growing in the knowledge of Christ and as we grow in that knowledge we are more able to conformed to Him. This is not to say that we are growing in our willingness to submit to God. Sin itself is dealt with. I believe that Spirit Baptism takes care of that for the most part. But there are things about us that are not like Christ and we discover them by revelation. With that revelation comes the opportunity to change. So in that sense I see a refining taking place also. Our mind needs to be renewed. Thoughts have to be cast down as well as strongholds. Wrong ideas about God that have to change in order for us to rightly represent Christ, etc. So in this is see a refining process; not in the same sense as would be silver, but more like a portrait on a canvas or an image in photoshop. I'll get the helmet... ;-)

Our mind needs to be renewed. Thoughts have to be cast down as well as strongholds. Wrong ideas about God that have to change in order for us to rightly represent Christ, etc. So in this is see a refining process; not in the same sense as would be silver, but more like a portrait on a canvas or an image in photoshop. I'll get the helmet...

a life-long refining process in which impurities are constantly surfacing in the heat of God's working

What would folk mean by 'impurities' who held to such notions?

What would folk mean by 'impurities' who held to such notions?

Usually, unresolved habits and dispositions.

I think I know what you mean. I hope this anecdote is not out of line; but, a man explains to the pastor why he threw into a fit rage that it was, "The Irishman in me coming out." The pastor's reply was to the effect of getting the 'Irishman' saved. I actually had a guy say once who was recently converted and was highly angered that he had not been saved [i]that[/i] long. Sounds like some 'dispositions' still needed changing.

"The Irishman in me coming out."

Ormly wrote:

When has God ever given anyone, a new heart?

[b]Eze 18:31[/b] [color=990000]Cast away from you all your transgressions, whereby ye have transgressed; and make you [b]a new heart[/b] and a new spirit: for why will ye die, O house of Israel? [/color]

[b]Eze 36:26 [color=990000]A new heart also will I give you,[/b] and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh[/color]

Would these verses answer your question?

There is no doubt that what is within will come out, hence the need for a new heart.

I have long wondered why the whole Baptism in the Holy Spirit was not a once and for all event in the sense that you could be baptized into Christ and that was it. No need for refreshing. No anything. I'm not being pedantic at all here, but trying to get my head around a phenomena I have seen in my own life. Why is it that if we drop the ball and quit seeking God for ongoing infillings (refillings) then I start to slip away from the person of Christ in my behavior? Maybe just my experience here, but I find it is essential to my being conformed to the image of Christ to keep being filled and refilled. The baptism in the Holy Spirit I experienced in 1992 was certainly the life changing event of transformation- but to maintain that has required an ongoing 'refill'. Almost like there is a sort of spiritual entropy going on. The glass keeps going dry.

Maybe I am bordering on suppression theory here, but what could be going on to cause us to keep needing to be filled and refilled? Or for some to reach a place that they have to repent and do their first works? I think of the double minded man that is unstable in all his ways. Maybe this is a different thread, but what is a double minded person? They can't have two carnal minds or two minds of Christ. Is a double minded person one that has ceased to continual in the infillings and somehow they have [i]yielded[/i] their minds to carnal thoughts?

Maybe this is a different thread

Ormly wrote:

"""
I have heard that many times in my life only to find out through being born again that it means the word to be THE WORD; Jesus Christ Himself by the Holy Ghost.

The development of my faith in Christ must produce His Faith in me unto an unwavering union.

That is why the rendering of the verse Gal.2.20 KJV is so vitally important here. Paul is stating it is by the very life of the Son of God he lives by. It is by the very life of the Son of God that Faith, HIS Faith comes, and by the hearing of it within him. This is the intimacy Father is after from those who claim His name.
This is beyond having faith in the Son of God and a direct result of it. Jesus enters and makes His abode. One learns to step out into life with HIS Faith; HIS Life.

Other translations don't pick up on most of these seemingly insignificant points to explain them but rather slant them to a particular bent. Reader beware!
I use several in my study and have noticed much elseware in scripture where one should make distinctions by comparing to the KJV as well. By doing so one will learn to read the KJV as easily as the NIV, eating more meat and less potatoes"""

Wow, I hear with ears that Hear, that is His ears. I see with eyes that see, that is His eyes. It truly is Christ in you the Hope of Glory. This truly is the only way any man will be presented perfect before the Father on His Throne.

Colossians 1:27-29 To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory: Whom we preach, warning every man, and teaching every man in all wisdom; that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus: Whereunto I also labour, striving according to his working, which worketh in me mightily.

And in you.

In Christ: Phillip

Heb 10:38-39
Now the just shall live by faith: but if any man draw back, my soul shall have no pleasure in him.

39 But we are not of them who draw back unto perdition; but of them that believe to the saving of the soul.

We learned in past threads that the word for 'draw back' means to furl the sail. The subject is faith. If we draw back in faith. If faith is response to revelation it would seem that the sail might get furled if the response to the revelation has an undesired result. I think we can take ourselves right into Hebrews 11 and ask what we would have done in those individual situations.

In each case there was opportunity to 'draw back' but the reason they are champions of the faith is because they kept the sail 'full on' and at full mast. They had no regard for the consequences of responding rightly to the revelation they knew. I think of Rehab. What if she would have been fearful and disobeyed? She would have died with the rest. What if Moses' mother had feared the kings commandment rather than God? We had never heard of Moses. Those who died in faith had not set their affections on the things of this earth. They were strangers and pilgrims in the earth. They had one eye on the 'better country' all the time and responded to God in light of that eternal perspective.

Heb 11:15-16

And truly, if they had been mindful of that country from whence they came out, they might have had opportunity to have returned.

16 But now they desire a better country, that is, an heavenly: wherefore God is not ashamed to be called their God: for he hath prepared for them a city.

My mind cannot help but turn to Demas at this point. He was not supposed to be mindful of the country from which he was brought out; but when he had opportunity he did return (having loved this present world). And maybe that is the issue at hand. Does a person so love the world that they are in danger of being mindful of it and turning back to it (to 'return'). Is this not the reverse of repentance towards God? They repented of their repentance. They changed their mind 'back' again because they were ever mindful of the place where they were brought out.

They were brought out of Egypt- but Egypt was not brought out of them. And given the opportunity- they returned. They furl the sails and pull out the oars. We rowing back to Egypt boys, I don't like whats ahead. Death is ahead- but the well watered land of Egypt is behind. [u]If[/u] they had been mindfull... If they had 'remembered' the place they were brought out from... If they had 'rehearsed' in their minds the memory of the place from which they were brought out they might have sought an opportunity (or a season) to turn back- but now they seek a heavenly city in which God is not ashamed to be called their God.

For those who draw back they are allowed to 'turn back'. Seems like a progression. Remember Lot's wife. She 'looked back'. Is that not what it is to be mindful of the place from which we were brought out. The minds eye turns and the head and body follows. If we [i]look back[/i] we may well [i]draw back[/i] and if we draw back it seems only a matter of time till one [i]turns back[/i].

After reading thru the thread, in context to the ongoing state of "believing," this question: why does Scripture point to the necessity of continuing in the work of believing? For what purpose does "believing" serve in God's plan for salvation of man?

In Christ
Jeff

Here is a sermon by Carter Conlon on what happens to those who turn aside...

https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/mydownloads/visit.php?lid=1355

In Christ
Jeff

My mind cannot help but turn to Demas at this point. He was not supposed to be mindful of the country from which he was brought out; but when he had opportunity he did return (having loved this present world).

I had the thought also that Demas must have known Paul's destiny. Perhaps he was in danger of being put to death also? In any case he looked ahead and apparently did not like the direction things were going. Sail boats have only a limited ability to determine their [i]course[/i]. Paul saw the end of his course and declared the time of his departure was 'at hand'. Paul reached a fork in the road (as it were). Now he is arriving at his final opportunity to exercise faith. What will he do? Like Rehab and like Moses mother. No doubt they both hear the footsteps of fear and could have 'drawn back'- but they did not. Nor did Paul. Demas must not have liked his course and 'turned back'. Perhaps they were to share this destiny together?

Paul had already made it clear that he desired to depart and be with Christ which was far better. He was not mindful of that country from which he came out. What about his companion? What about Demas? Was he also ready to be offered? Was it not also his destiny? He apparently 'accepted' deliverance by forsaking Paul. But Paul, by faith, would not accept the deliverance that he might obtain a better resurrection.

Why faith? Not a hard answer. [i]For it is by faith that it might be by grace, to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed...[/i] (Romans 4)

Brother Robert wrote:

Why faith? Not a hard answer. For it is by faith that it might be by grace, to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed... (Romans 4)

What is the product of faith for those who continue to believe?

In Christ
Jeff

What is the product of faith for those who continue to believe?

I'm not 100% sure what you mean, but I think the answer is "a good report."

dorcas wrote:
GraceAlone said

A real conversion is when somebody REPENTS of all thier sin (by the power of God). Turns away from all of it and experiences a radicaly changed life in love for God. If they don't perservere they were not saints. If somebody lives in and practices sin, they are lost.

Isn't this what Ron explained in his last-post-but-one, when he said

'I see many possible steps including repentance and genuine faith as prerequisites of regeneration rather than its consequence'?

You can't have faith without turning to faith.

Repentance: turning from sin to faith in Christ.

There is a turning to Christ that happens when God saves a man. First Conversion resluting in salvation.

Ormly asked whether anyone has ever gotten a new heart. Check 1Samuel 10:9. Saul did when he was annointed by Samuel.

Brother Robert wrote:

I'm not 100% sure what you mean, but I think the answer is "a good report."

This is true...but this is the outcome. I am pointing to the process of what it means to follow day by day in faith. Brother Ron brought up a good point in another thread about a disciple that is set free by the truth...

John 8:31 Then Jesus said to those Jews who believed Him, “If you abide in My word, you are My disciples indeed. 32 And you shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.”

John 8:34 Jesus answered them, “Most assuredly, I say to you, whoever commits sin is a slave of sin. 35 And a slave does not abide in the house forever, but a son abides forever. 36 Therefore if the Son makes you free, you shall be free indeed.

In this section of Scripture we find that to be set free from the bondage of sin, one must continually abide in the word of God. And by abiding, the truth sets one free from the bondage of sin.

How does faith and the learning of the truth set one free from the bondage of sin?

In Christ
Jeff

"How does faith and the learning of the truth set one free from the bondage of sin?"

Set free by the Word of God, which is Christ in you The Hope of Glory.

John 1:1-4 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. The same was in the beginning with God. All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made. In him was life; and the life was the light of men.

1 Peter 1:19-23 But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot: Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you, Who by him do believe in God, that raised him up from the dead, and gave him glory; that your faith and hope might be in God. Seeing ye have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit unto unfeigned love of the brethren, see that ye love one another with a pure heart fervently: Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the Word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.

Who lives and abides in us for ever?

1 Peter 1:24-25 For all flesh is as grass, and all the glory of man as the flower of grass. The grass withereth, and the flower thereof falleth away: But the word of the Lord endureth for ever. And this is the word which by the gospel is preached unto you.

"The Word (logos) liveth and abideth forever"

"this is the word (Rhema) which by (Paul's) gospel is preached unto you."

The Word Himself living and abiding in us forever and the written word speaking of this by Paul's gospel.

Ephesians 1:3-5 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ: According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,

Rom 2:16 In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel.

Rom 16:25 Now to him that is of power to stablish you according to my gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began,

The Mystery: Christ presenting His Body the Body of Christ the Church to His Father and ours, which is by the "Christ In us the Hope of Glory."

Colossians 1:26-28 Even the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints: To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory: Whom we preach, warning every man, and teaching every man in all wisdom; that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus:

in Christ: Phillip

Brother Phillip wrote:

Set free by the Word of God, which is Christ in you The Hope of Glory.

For the benefit of other believers, can you testify of your relationship with Him...

How has knowing Him set you free from the corruption of your old man? How has He led you in specific experiences?
How has His Holy Spirit taught you about yourself and about Him?
In Christ
Jeff

Does anyone agree with what Carter Conlon preaches in the posted sermon?

In Christ
Jeff

I think most 'holiness' folks believe that sanctification can be lost, but Wesley specifically included 'justification' in his letter to Hannah Ball.

In his sermon on [url=http://new.gbgm-umc.org/umhistory/wesley/sermons/45/]The New Birth[/url], Wesley believed that 'in order of thinking' justification preceded regeneration.If any doctrines within the whole compass of Christianity may be properly termed fundamental, they are doubtless these two, -- the doctrine of justification, and that of the new birth: The former relating to that great work which God does for us, in forgiving our sins; the latter, to the great work which God does in us, in renewing our fallen nature. [b]In order of time, neither of these is before the other: in the moment we are justified by the grace of God, through the redemption that is in Jesus, we are also "born of the Spirit;" but in order of thinking, as it is termed, justification precedes the new birth. We first conceive his wrath to be turned away, and then his Spirit to work in our hearts.[/b]His statment then to Hannah Ball that 40% 'lose' justification and sanctification within a year makes me wish I could ask him that straightforward question 'do we lose regeneration and then regain it and then lose it and then... or do we only lose 'justification'?

Brother Ron wrote:

In order of time, neither of these is before the other: in the moment we are justified by the grace of God, through the redemption that is in Jesus, we are also "born of the Spirit;" but in order of thinking, as it is termed, justification precedes the new birth. We first conceive his wrath to be turned away, and then his Spirit to work in our hearts.

This reminds me of Romans 5

Rom. 5:1 Therefore, having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ, 2 through whom also we have access by faith into this grace in which we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God.

9 Much more then, having now been justified by His blood, we shall be saved from wrath through Him. 10 For if when we were enemies we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, much more, having been reconciled, we shall be saved by His life.

His blood justifies and reconcils us to God, yet we are saved from the wrath of God by His life. Learning from Him of how He teaches us about His life. The things we learn and experience, then change the substance for what we hope for. To have the same desire that motivates Him to glorify His Father in all that He does, to have this desire become our hearts desire, this is all that faith brings to us. This is the grace that changes all...

His statment then to Hannah Ball that 40% 'lose' justification and sanctification within a year makes me wish I could ask him that straightforward question 'do we lose regeneration and then regain it and then lose it and then... or do we only lose 'justification'?

2Tim. 2:11 This is a faithful saying:
\t\tFor if we died with Him,
\t\tWe shall also live with Him.
12 If we endure,
\t\tWe shall also reign with Him.
\t\tIf we deny Him,
\t\tHe also will deny us.
13 If we are faithless,
\t\tHe remains faithful;
\t\tHe cannot deny Himself.

I believe this Scripture teaches that He will always wait for us to return because He is faithful. If we deny the Holy Spirit His place in our lives, well then He will say Get away from Me I never knew you.

In Christ
Jeff

Wesley was generally a man of particular logic; he taught it an university. So I find his thinking of justification and regeneration puzzling in the light of his letter to Hannah Ball. If, as he says, justification and regeneration are inseparable in experience what happens to the man who loses his 'justification'? Would that not mean that he lost his regeneration? And how many regenerations would a person be allowed? ;-)

His statment then to Hannah Ball that 40% 'lose' justification and sanctification within a year makes me wish I could ask him that straightforward question 'do we lose regeneration and then regain it and then lose it and then... or do we only lose 'justification'?

It seems to me he may have been making a distinction between the two. Could he have meant that that some lost the second blessing they professed (sanctification) on the one hand and that others who professed Christ turned back and lost their justification? Two seperate people at two seperate places in their experience?

makes me wish I could ask him that straightforward question 'do we lose regeneration and then regain it and then lose it and then... or do we only lose 'justification'?

I think I might add, "do we lose just our sanctification and retain our justification?"

If, as he says, justification and regeneration are inseparable in experience what happens to the man who loses his 'justification'? Would that not mean that he lost his regeneration? And how many regenerations would a person be allowed?

I would be more apt to think the person was not really regenerated in the first place if they turn back. Not in all cases, but I just don't see the experience as being that weak. I think of a radical change when I think of regeneration. Sometimes it's hard to get a fire started- but once it's lit... watch out! :-)

I think your question takes us to the realm of Hebrews warnings. For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened...

So in my thinking if a person was truly regenerated they would have to apostacize in such a way that the Holy Spirit actually departed to loose their regeneration and justification. They would have to turn away from God in a way that at some point cut them off from God. I guess I'm going to cut against the grain for a moment with this statement- but I have generally viewed the prodigal son as a 'son' that left the fathers house. I have viewed the passage as dealing primarily with backsliding. :-o To borrow J. Vernon McGee's analogy: the hogs return to the hogpen and the sons always return to the Father's house.

His statment then to Hannah Ball that 40% 'lose' justification and sanctification within a year makes me wish I could ask him that straightforward question 'do we lose regeneration and then regain it and then lose it and then... or do we only lose 'justification'?

I think Wesley would see it not so much as losing regeneration as putting back on the old man.

I think Wesley would see it not so much as losing regeneration as putting back on the old man.

Then what is regeneration?

Then what is regeneration?

Wesley looked at regeneration as a putting on the new man :)

KingJimmy wrote:

Then what is regeneration?

Wesley looked at regeneration as a putting on the new man :)

I think Wesley would see it not so much as losing regeneration as putting back on the old man.

To add to that, before regeneration there was only one man, the dead one.

The scholars may have more insight into this, but is not regeneration an organic term and justification a jurisdic one.

My thinking is you may have the life but the trust in the justifying work of Jesus may wane.

ZekeO on 2007/5/17 15:19:37
The scholars may have more insight into this, but is not regeneration an organic term and justification a jurisdic one.

My thinking is you may have the life but the trust in the justifying work of Jesus may wane.

I do think part of the problem is the result of treating words like 'justification' and 'regeneration' as though they were synonymous terms. However I do think Wesley was talking about losing the 'experience' rather than a consciousness of the experience.

So a person begins with just a 'man'.
Then regeneration comes and God's gives him a new 'man'.
Then it is up to the person to decide whether or not to put on the new 'man' or the old 'man'. Once the new 'man' is put on can it be taken off? If the old 'man' is put back on can it be taken off to re-put the new 'man' on?

Getting confusing here. What does Romans 8:5-9 say: (King James Version)

5For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.

Two types of people, one type is after the flesh (old man) and do the things of the flesh, other type is after the Spirit (new man) and do the things of the spirit. But this still doesn't answer our questions above.

6For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.

Once again, the two types but this doesn't answer our questions.

7Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.

Interesting, the carnal mind (flesh, old man) is enmity to God. It is not subject to God's law and cannot be.

8So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.

Those that are in the flesh cannot please God. The person who is after the flesh, the old man, cannot please God. So, how would the old man turn to the new man apart from a work of God?

9But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

Paul makes a very good point here. Those who are after the spirit (put on the new man) have the spirit of God dwelling in them. Those who do not have the spirit of God dwelling in them are after the flesh.

So, Spirit of God means the new man is put on. No Spirit of God, the old man is put on.

But can the Spirit of God enter and depart people multiple times? If Wesley's theory is true, then the Spirit of God enters and departs from people depending on whether or not they are putting on the old 'man' or the new 'man'.

But the Spirit of God does not depart from a person, on the contrary:
2 Corinthians 1:22, "Who hath also sealed us, and given the earnest of the Spirit in our hearts."
Ephesians 1:13, "In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,"
Ephesians 4:30, "And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption."

Wesley's view of regeneration and justification just doesn't add up.

Do you have any documentation for this thought?

I'm not sure that I do off the top of my head. Perhaps this afternoon I will flip through a few of his sermons to see if I can find anything. 20 pages of quotes I have on Wesley & scholars about Wesley is presently on my laptop which is in the shop! I think this notion comes from something I read on him though by Wesleyan scholar Kenneth Collins.

Ephesians 4:22 That ye put off concerning the former conversation the old man, which is corrupt according to the deceitful lusts; 23 And be renewed in the spirit of your mind; 24 And that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness.

KingJimmy,

Scripture interprets Scripture, it is not opposed to Scripture. Please explain to all of us why your scripture debunks the scripture I provided and please explain why the scripture I provided was interpreted in vain.

Thanks.

So a person begins with just a 'man'.
Then regeneration comes and God's gives him a new 'man'.
Then it is up to the person to decide whether or not to put on the new 'man' or the old 'man'. Once the new 'man' is put on can it be taken off? If the old 'man' is put back on can it be taken off to re-put the new 'man' on?

The Darby translation trys to convey this idea...Eph. 4:22 (DRBY) [namely] your having put off according to the former conversation the old man which corrupts itself according to the deceitful lusts;

Col. 3:9 (DRBY) Do not lie to one another, having put off the old man with his deeds, Putting off the old man is never considered as a process in the New Testament but always as a decisive event, as is 'putting on the new man'.

But can the Spirit of God enter and depart people multiple times? If Wesley's theory is true, then the Spirit of God enters and departs from people depending on whether or not they are putting on the old 'man' or the new 'man'.

But the Spirit of God does not depart from a person, on the contrary:

Psalm 51:11 Do not cast me away from Your presence And do not take Your Holy Spirit from me.

Ephesians 5:18 And do not get drunk with wine, for that is dissipation, but be filled with the Spirit...

Romans 6:4 Therefore we have been buried with Him through baptism into death, so that as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, so we too might walk in newness of life... 11 Even so consider yourselves to be dead to sin, but alive to God in Christ Jesus. 12 Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body so that you obey its lusts, 13 and do not go on presenting the members of your body to sin as instruments of unrighteousness; but present yourselves to God as those alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness to God... 16 Do you not know that when you present yourselves to someone as slaves for obedience, you are slaves of the one whom you obey, either of sin resulting in death, or of obedience resulting in righteousness?

So how can God say He 'seals' us with His Spirit if it can be taken away? What kind of 'seal' is that?

Putting off the old man is never considered as a process in the New Testament but always as a decisive event, as is 'putting on the new man'.

So when a person decides to put on the old man, does the Spirit of God depart?

Then later when a person decides to put back on the new man, does the Spirit of God re-enter?

Just wanting to make sure I understand.

Psalm 51:11 Do not cast me away from Your presence And do not take Your Holy Spirit from me.

Edit for rephrasing: I disagree with this verse being used in this context, the Bible is clear that the working of the Spirit in the New Covenant is different than in the Old Covenant.

See John 16.

Edit: Different in that a change occurred once Jesus became glorified. Once Jesus ascended, He sent down the Holy Spirit to be the Counselor/Comforter. Obviously a change had occurred.

So how can God say He 'seals' us with His Spirit if it can be taken away? What kind of 'seal' is that?

The common theology of Jeremiah's day, as we see quite well in classic passages such as Jeremiah 7, was that "No harm will come upon us, for we confidence that since God has put His name upon this temple, that this temple shall stand! After all God is in this place!" And God made it quite clear through the Babylonians that this theology was bunk.

*Edit* And as Scripture reminds us, these things happened as examples for us, upon whom the end of the ages have come.

Edit for rephrasing: I disagree with this verse being used in this context, the Bible is clear that the working of the Spirit in the New Covenant is different than in the Old Covenant.

See John 16.

I agree there is a difference in the testaments in regard to the activity of the Spirit. However (and without attempting to open a can of worms), I believe that Old Testaments saints had the same indwelling of the Spirit that we as believers have today by faith. For just as redemption was provided to them by faith in Christ, so were the benefits of that saving faith available to them as well. The difference between the dispensations in regard to the administration of the Holy Spirit has to do not with the salvific work of the Spirit, but rather the outpouring of the Spirit in regards to equipping for ministry that would be provided for all.

I think John 15 is a great picture of the activity of the Spirit in regard to these things. It's simply about abiding in the life of the vine. Simply put, if you are not abiding in the vine, you are not participating in the life of the Spirit. But if you are abiding in the vine, you are participating in the life of the Spirit, and will bear fruit in keeping with that participation.

KingJimmy, if you are right about the Spirit, then why did Jesus say, "I tell you, among those born of women none is greater than John. Yet the one who is least in the kingdom of God is greater than he." (John 7:28 ESV)

Jay,

Whatever interpretation one might give to this passage, one cannot say that Jesus is establishing a dichotomy between John and the disciples that have since been ushered into the kingdom based on some notion of the Spirit's future outpouring in Acts 2. For Jesus is talking about people present during His very ministry who are taking the kingdom by force. Chronologically speaking, this is still before that outpouring. So, to assert that it is the issue of the Spirit that Jesus uses to drive a wedge between John and the newly converted citizens of the kingdom of heaven, would be incorrect.

I think this passage can be better understood in the frequent saying of Christ, that the first shall be last and that the last shall be first.

From Robertson's Word Pictures:

Mat 11:11 -
He that is but little (ho mikroteros). The Authorized Version here has it better, “he that is least.” The article with the comparative is a growing idiom in the vernacular Koiné for the superlative as in the modern Greek it is the only idiom for the superlative (Robertson, Grammar of the Greek N.T., p. 668). The papyri and inscriptions show the same construction. The paradox of Jesus has puzzled many. He surely means that John is greater (meizōn) than all others in character, but that the least in the kingdom of heaven surpasses him in privilege. John is the end of one age, “until John” (Mat_11:14), and the beginning of the new era. All those that come after John stand upon his shoulders. John is the mountain peak between the old and the new.

Matthew 11:13-14, "For all the Prophets and the Law prophesied until John, and if you are willing to accept it, he is Elijah who is to come."

As Robertson said, John the Baptist marked the ending of an 'age'...call it a dispensation if you wish. But the point is that John marked the end. After John came Jesus and His ministry, then the disciples.

John 15 speaks of a new, better working of the Holy Spirit once Jesus was glorified. So it is incorrect to equate the working of the Holy Spirit in Psalm 51 (concerning David) and the working of the Holy Spirit within you and me.

For most of us it's a matter of just reading the word of God, not a matter of trying to understand it, but just reading it and letting God pour some "miracle grow" on that seed to cause it grow in our lives.

Heb 4:1-2

Let us therefore fear, lest, a promise being left us of entering into his rest, any of you should seem to come short of it.

2 For unto us was the gospel preached, as well as unto them: but the word preached did not profit them, [u]not being mixed with faith[/u] in them that heard it.

I think of the importance of the Holy Spirit quickening the word of God to us. More than the logos- but the rhema. But even that is not enough to effect change. There is yet a missing element; [i]faith[/i]. The word has to be mixed with faith or it will not profit. Faith is our contribution.

So it is incorrect to equate the working of the Holy Spirit in Psalm 51 (concerning David) and the working of the Holy Spirit within you and me.

I disagree. Romans teaches that one who is truly a Jew must be a Jew inwardly, receiving a circumcision that is of the heart by the Spirit. This teaching transcends dispensations. The Old Testament saints who were righteous in the sight of God had this inward work done in them as well. Such is why Jesus marveled that teachers like Nicodemus didn't understand the necessity for the new birth, as these things were taught all in the Law and prophets. The Old Testament saints could not have been the saints they were apart from the work of the Spirit that comes through His indwelling.

When David cried out in Psalm 51 for God to not take His Holy Spirit from him, this is a cry that we should realize as a potential reality for us as well. For these things happened as examples for us, the Scriptures remind us. As Ephesians 5 reminds us, we are exhorted to be continually full of the Holy Spirit. Thus, it is clear from Scripture that the presence of the Spirit in our lives as a believer can fade. For we would not need to seek to be continually full of the Spirit if we were always full of the Spirit.

And indeed, if we are not diligent in our faith to remain full of the Spirit, there will come a time when we might find ourselves lacking faith altogether, even having abandoned it. And in such times we have the horrible vision of Ezekiel to remind us that there is a time in which the Spirit of God departs from the very temple where He caused His name to dwell. Indeed, the prophets reminded Israel time and time again that the "assurance" that they had was a false one, and that God could indeed abandon them and give them over to destruction.

These things were written for our instruction, as examples for us.

Brother Jay asked:

So how can God say He 'seals' us with His Spirit if it can be taken away? What kind of 'seal' is that?

I see it as David knew that God's Holy Spirit was with him. The presence of the Holy Spirit was David's asssurance of the promise God gave to him. The Holy Spirit is the down payment for the promised redemption. The Holy Spirit is our seal, in that, we hear His counsel, His commands, His enabling for the work He has for us to do.

In Christ
Jeff

Brother Robert wrote:

The word has to be mixed with faith or it will not profit. Faith is our contribution.

John 14:21 He who has My commandments and keeps them, it is he who loves Me. And he who loves Me will be loved by My Father, and I will love him and manifest Myself to him.”

Does this verse define what you have stated above?

In Christ
Jeff

If loosing ones salvation is up to the individual, then gaining ones salvation is up to the individual also.

I don't think so.

1 Corinthians 1:29-31 That no flesh should glory in His presence. But of Him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption: That, according as it is written, He that glorieth, let him glory in the Lord.

It is God's glory that we are redeemed. It is God's glory that we are in righteous justification where God has put us in Christ Jesus and Christ Jesus in us. It is God's glory that Holy Spirit wisdom is made unto us. It is God's Glory that the Christ Person is sanctified in Christ life.

In Christ: Phillip

Sis wrote:

We repent again, and again the ground is ready for seed. Sometimes our lives become a "sin - repent" for quite awhile until the day comes when our ground is able to receive seed and keep it. It's like a woman who keeps having miscarriages, but finally she does retain the seed and thus able to give birth.

In the parable of the sower, we all know that the seed is the word of God. We know that it is planted once. We know that there are those who do not perservere. But really what is the main focus of this parable?

I think we get so absorbed by this "born from above" discusssion, we get so absorbed by looking for "experiences" that quicken our hearts, we get so absorbed looking for signs and wonders that confirm to us that we are His children, yet what is the focus of the parable of the sower?

It is not about us is it. It is about glorifying Him.

Matt. 13:23 But he who received seed on the good ground is he who hears the word and understands it, who indeed bears fruit and produces: some a hundredfold, some sixty, some thirty.”

John 4:36 And he who reaps receives wages, and gathers fruit for eternal life, that both he who sows and he who reaps may rejoice together.

John 15:2 Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit He takes away; and every branch that bears fruit He prunes, that it may bear more fruit.

John 15:4 Abide in Me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, unless it abides in the vine, neither can you, unless you abide in Me.

John 15:5 “I am the vine, you are the branches. He who abides in Me, and I in him, bears much fruit; for without Me you can do nothing.

John 15:8 By this My Father is glorified, that you bear much fruit; so you will be My disciples.

Do you see that the focus of Scripture is not about us but about the work of the Holy Spirit reaping a harvest of souls as the reward for our Savior's sacrifice.

Rev. 5:11 Then I looked, and I heard the voice of many angels around the throne, the living creatures, and the elders; and the number of them was ten thousand times ten thousand, and thousands of thousands, 12 saying with a loud voice:
\t“Worthy is the Lamb who was slain
\tTo receive power and riches and wisdom,
\tAnd strength and honor and glory and blessing!”

In Christ
Jeff

Brother Phillip wrote:

If loosing ones salvation is up to the individual, then gaining ones salvation is up to the individual also.

This is not the question at all is it. The real question is do we say yes to the Holy Spirit's commands? That is the only way that Christ manifests Himself to those who believe onto salvation.

In Christ
Jeff

ohn 14:21 He who has My commandments and keeps them, it is he who loves Me. And he who loves Me will be loved by My Father, and I will love him and manifest Myself to him.”

Does this verse define what you have stated above?

An interesting discovery concerning Israel:

Hebrews 3:

And to whom did He swear that they would not enter His rest, but to those who were [u]disobedient?[/u] (NASB)

And to whom sware he that they should not enter into his rest, but to them that were [u]disobedient?[/u] (ASV)

And to whom did he make an oath that they might not come into his rest? was it not to those who went [u]against his orders?[/u] (BBE)

And to whom sware he that they should not enter into his rest, but to them that [u]believed not?[/u] (KJV)

There seems to be a parallel between obedience and faith.

Rom 10:16-17

But they have not all [u]obeyed[/u] the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath [u]believed[/u] our report?

17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

I read the 16th verse to be saying, "If they had really believed they would have obeyed." I think that obedience is very close to worship because of the submission involved. Resisting the Holy Ghost is refusal to submit or 'yield' ourselves to unto God. Whether or not we obey is not always based upon our knowledge of the facts. Whether or not we believe is not based on the assent of of mind to the facts in the case. One can 'mis-weigh' the evidence and rule incorrectly in a case. This is why Romans tells us that they did all 'hear', but they did not all obey. Everyone basically has the same eveidence on a basic level. Some believe and obey and some do not. Why is that?

Answer? They did not [u]want[/u] to believe. Why? Because they did not like the direction that 'belief' would ultimately take their life. They wanted to do their own thing without God superintending their life. So what is the convenient thing to do? Come up with a way to disregard the facts (evidence). Ignore God. Intentionally leave Him out of their reckoning. This is a process that ultimately shuts the light out of the person's life until they declare there is [u]no[/u] God. Why? They love darkness because their deeds are evil. What is darkness? It is the [i]absence[/i] of light. What is the darkness whereof we speak? It is the absence of God. Men 'love' the absence of God. And some will get what they 'love' for all eternity. Hell is the absence of God. Those who hate the light feel comfortable in the absence of God.

Can a plant grow in darkness? Hence; the 'fool' has said in his heart their is no God (Psalm 14:1a). The root word in the Hebrew is [i]nebal[/i] and it means 'to wilt'. This is what plants do in the absence of light. This is why the second part of the verse says they are 'corrupt'. This Hebrew word means 'to decay'. The consequence of this is found in the OT first use of the word and it is also translated 'corrupt':

Gen 6:11

The earth also was [u]corrupt[/u] before God, and the earth was filled with violence.
KJV

This is a world that 'loved' the absence of God.

If loosing ones salvation is up to the individual, then gaining ones salvation is up to the individual also.

This idea I'm afraid is more philosophy than scripture. God is glorified in salvation as it is of faith that it might be by grace. God has taken the initiative and made a way; but man has to respond rightly to God. This is the constant message of scripture. Choose [u]YE[/u] this day...

Faith and obedience are so closely linked that they are nearly impossible to separate. I don't think 'works' in the Ephesians 2 sense is the same as faith [i]that works[/i] (James 2). How do we respond to the Holy Spirit? Do we resist? Do we submit? The way of the transgressor is hard. Resisting being apprehended of Christ (Phil 3) is said to be hard, i.e. it is 'hard' for thee to kick against the pricks (goads Acts 9:5).

Goads were sharp sticks or thorns that were used by farmers on their plows to steer the animal to the left or right. An arm went out into either side of the animal and the goad could be thrust into the side as a sort of power steering. The pain caused the animal to seek relief by going the appropriate direction. This is an old bible concept. We read in Judges 1:14:

And it came to pass, when she came to him, that [u]she moved him[/u] to ask of her father a field: and she lighted from off her ass; and Caleb said unto her, What wilt thou?

[u]She moved him[/u] is the Hebrew word [i]cuwth[/i] (sooth) and it means to 'prick'. There is a good side and a bad side to this concept. God is said to have 'moved' David or that He at times would 'stir up' folk to do certain things. However, there is a bad way the word is used also and it can be translated to entice or seduce. This is how the word is mainly used. So we see then that God will 'prod' a person towards His will, but that prodding can still be resisted just like being seduced and enticed can be resisted.

The point is, man has to make the decision to either sin or obey. They are being prodded in both directions. The enemy uses means to 'prick' folk towards disobedience. God uses means to 'prick' men towards Himself. With all this 'persuading' and 'prodding' going on it is up to man to choose- will I submit to God and resist the devil or will I resist the Holy Ghost and submit to the enemy? It is your choice! Choose [u]YE[/u] this day whom you will serve.

KingJimmy: Romans teaches that one who is truly a Jew must be a Jew inwardly, receiving a circumcision that is of the heart by the Spirit. This teaching transcends dispensations. The Old Testament saints who were righteous in the sight of God had this inward work done in them as well.

Although it is true that there was a certain work that God performed in the hearts of men since the beginning- I would make a clear distinction between the world post Acts 2 and the world prior. Men themselves post Acts 2 would be the house of God. Jacob was the first to use the term 'house of God' when he dreamed of the staircase into heaven. This is none other the the house of God- this is the gate of heaven. Our Lord referred to Jacob's experience saying angels would ascend and descend on Him also. When He walked the earth HE was the house of God. He was and is the 'door' of Heaven. When He ascended into Heaven the Church became the house of God as the Holy Spirit came in filled the house or believers individually. Each is a lively stone. This had never been before.

This was a whole new level of the presence of God in men. They used to go to the Temple- now they were the Temple. They used to be forbidden from going into the Holiest of all- now that same God who dwelled in the thick darkness behind the vail dwells in us. If we ever got our head around this fact we would take the world for Christ. The fire that sat over the Tabernacle came and rested over those who were filled symbolizing God leading men like He led the children of Israel (Acts 2). This is a life led of the Spirit. This is a holy priesthood energized to offer up spiritual sacrifices to the Lord.

Circumcision of the heart dates at least back to Abraham. I believe true circumcision of the heart is God dealing with the Sin issue (sin nature). Abraham believed God- and obeyed while the rest of the world were fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind. It seems Abraham was willing to submit to God and resist the lusts of the flesh. He was 'circumcised' of his flesh. Jesus told the people if they were children of Abraham they would have done the works of Abraham. What did he do? He obeyed in faith. What was the sign given? Circumcision of the foreskin of his flesh. The word just means 'to cut'. But it began in the heart.

Deut 10:16

Circumcise therefore the foreskin of your heart, and be no more stiffnecked.
KJV

There is a similar passage in Jeremiah 4:4. Here we read that man must do the job himself- so in a sense it is man's responsibility. In Deut 30:6 God said He would do the job. Again, I see this as merely cooperating with God in His working. If I told my son to get his hair cut I surely would not mean for him to do it? The directive was to the intent that he go to the barber shop. God says to circumcise our hearts- but I think we have to come to Him for it. This is played out in its ultimate sense in regeneration. As wonderful as was all the OT Saints enjoyed- I still believe the New Testament saints know the working of the Holy Spirit in a fuller way than at any time in history.

KingJimmy on 2007/5/18 3:22:51
The Old Testament saints could not have been the saints they were apart from the work of the Spirit that comes through His indwelling.

When David cried out in Psalm 51 for God to not take His Holy Spirit from him, this is a cry that we should realize as a potential reality for us as well. For these things happened as examples for us, the Scriptures remind us.

Each time the Old Testament uses the phrase Holy Spirit it is in contrast to sin. It is not merely a title but a consciousness that God is different and in stark contrast to the events which give the context.

As Ephesians 5 reminds us, we are exhorted to be continually full of the Holy Spirit.

Brother Ron wrote:

This is one of only three references to the 'holy' Spirit in the Old Testament. (Psa 51:11; Is 63:10-11) The prevailing attribute of the Spirit in the Old Testament is 'power' not 'holiness'.

I respect your view, but Scripture teaches otherwise...

Proverbs 2:

6 \tFor the LORD gives wisdom;
\tFrom His mouth come knowledge and understanding;
7 \tHe stores up sound wisdom for the upright;
\tHe is a shield to those who walk uprightly;
8 \tHe guards the paths of justice,
\tAnd preserves the way of His saints.
9 \tThen you will understand righteousness and justice,
\tEquity and every good path.
10 \tWhen wisdom enters your heart,
\tAnd knowledge is pleasant to your soul,
11 \tDiscretion will preserve you;
\tUnderstanding will keep you,

Proverbs 3:

11 \tMy son, do not despise the chastening of the LORD,
\tNor detest His correction;
12 \tFor whom the LORD loves He corrects,
\tJust as a father the son in whom he delights.
13 \tHappy is the man who finds wisdom,
\tAnd the man who gains understanding;
14 \tFor her proceeds are better than the profits of silver,
\tAnd her gain than fine gold.
15 \tShe is more precious than rubies,
\tAnd all the things you may desire cannot compare with her.
16 \tLength of days is in her right hand,
\tIn her left hand riches and honor.
17 \tHer ways are ways of pleasantness,
\tAnd all her paths are peace.
18 \tShe is a tree of life to those who take hold of her,
\tAnd happy are all who retain her.

How does God give wisdom to men?

In Christ
Jeff

Brother Ron, Weren't John the Baptist and his father Zechariah Old Testament saints ( John the Baptist being the last of the Old Testament prophets ) and doesn't the Bible make clear they were filled with the Spirit? While I'm not sure this answers anything, it seems that the postulation that the Holy Spirit could only fill a person after Jesus was resurrected would not be entirely justified as some kind of rule.

whyme wrote:
Brother Ron, Weren't John the Baptist and his father Zechariah Old Testament saints ( John the Baptist being the last of the Old Testament prophets ) and doesn't the Bible make clear they were filled with the Spirit? While I'm not sure this answers anything, it seems that the postulation that the Holy Spirit could only fill a person after Jesus was resurrected would not be entirely justified as some kind of rule.

I have had a look at the concordance to where the word 'filled' is used and it is always in reference in God coming in/over a person. So the picture is God comes to man.

The word baptism/baptized however which the NT talks about regarding the Spirit is more often than not associated with a coming together of man and God. I am refferring specifically to the scriptures dealing with the Spirit. SO the picture is that God and man come together in union.

To maybe explain this better Jesus says in John 17:21 That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.

It is not so much Christ in me, but that I am now in Christ in a union/relationship. That is the difference I think.

Brother Ron, Weren't John the Baptist and his father Zechariah Old Testament saints ( John the Baptist being the last of the Old Testament prophets ) and doesn't the Bible make clear they were filled with the Spirit?

Did someone say that Old Testament saints could not be filled with the Spirit? I certainly didn't.

So how can God say He 'seals' us with His Spirit if it can be taken away? What kind of 'seal' is that?

I think you are thinking of a sealed pipe, and not a sealed promise. The English word seal has plenty of meanings, but I think in this context it is a mark of the authenticity of the promise of salvation, similar to a promissory note sealed with a royal seal.

The royal seal represents the proves the authenticity of the document and the authority that support it, but doesn't make the document indestructible.

A cheque represents money, but if you deliberately deface it, it becomes worthless. It's value is only maintained as long as you conserve it.

Another example would be the seal on the Lion's den. This was probably something like a wax mark without a lot of mechanical strength. Nearly any person could have broke it, however to do so would be to defy the king's authority and suffer the consequences. The strength of this type of seal is not in itself, but in what it represents.

I'm not saying the Holy Spirit is without power, but I think the context of the verse is talking of the Holy Spirit's function as a token to the power of Christ to save.

PassingThru

Ron,

I guess my point about the reference to John's being filled with the Holy Spirit is that it is not necessarily, by Scripture, restricted to power but could very well include holiness as well. I see your point with regard to Saul and David but it doesn't seem to extend to John the Baptist who was filled at birth.

So how can God say He 'seals' us with His Spirit if it can be taken away? What kind of 'seal' is that?

I think you are thinking of a sealed pipe, and not a sealed promise. The English word seal has plenty of meanings, but I think in this context it is a mark of the authenticity of the promise of salvation, similar to a promissory note sealed with a royal seal.

The royal seal represents the proves the authenticity of the document and the authority that support it, but doesn't make the document indestructible.

A cheque represents money, but if you deliberately deface it, it becomes worthless. It's value is only maintained as long as you conserve it.

Another example would be the seal on the Lion's den. This was probably something like a wax mark without a lot of mechanical strength. Nearly any person could have broke it, however to do so would be to defy the king's authority and suffer the consequences. The strength of this type of seal is not in itself, but in what it represents.

I'm not saying the Holy Spirit is without power, but I think the context of the verse is talking of the Holy Spirit's function as a token to the power of Christ to save.

PassingThru

whyme on 2007/5/18 14:44:53
I guess my point about the reference to John's being filled with the Holy Spirit is that it is not necessarily, by Scripture, restricted to power but could very well include holiness as well. I see your point with regard to Saul and David but it doesn't seem to extend to John the Baptist who was filled at birth.

This was a unique equipping of the Spirit for a unique role as the Voice and herald of the Messenger of the Covenant. “Behold, I will send my messenger, and he shall prepare the way before me: and the Lord, whom ye seek, shall suddenly come to his temple, even the messenger of the covenant, whom ye delight in: behold, he shall come, saith the LORD of hosts.” (Malachi 3:1 KJVS)John was indeed, the greatest born of woman, nevertheless he that is least in the Kingdom of God is greater than John. This clearly is not speaking of the effectiveness of ministry but of some other measure of 'greatness'.

To me this makes it very clear that a person does not need to be born-again in order to be filled with the Spirit

I agree. Look at the story of Balaam, the pagan prophet. The Spirit of the God "came upon him" which is similar, if not the same, as being filled with the Spirit:

Numbers: 24
1 Now when Balaam saw that it pleased the LORD to bless Israel, he did not go as at other times, to seek to use sorcery, but he set his face toward the wilderness. 2 And Balaam raised his eyes, and saw Israel encamped according to their tribes; [b]and the Spirit of God came upon him.[/b]

This clearly is not speaking of the effectiveness of ministry but of some other measure of 'greatness'.

Exactly.

Brother Zeke wrote;

The word baptism/baptized however which the NT talks about regarding the Spirit is more often than not associated with a coming together of man and God. I am refferring specifically to the scriptures dealing with the Spirit. SO the picture is that God and man come together in union.

Proverbs 2:

6 For the LORD gives wisdom;
From His mouth come knowledge and understanding;
7 He stores up sound wisdom for the upright;
He is a shield to those who walk uprightly;
8 He guards the paths of justice,
And preserves the way of His saints.
9 Then you will understand righteousness and justice,
Equity and every good path.
10 When wisdom enters your heart,
And knowledge is pleasant to your soul,
11 Discretion will preserve you;
Understanding will keep you,

Is this an example of the work of the Holy Spirit working in a man's heart?

In Christ
Jeff

Brother Nile wrote:

I agree. Look at the story of Balaam, the pagan prophet. The Spirit of the God "came upon him" which is similar, if not the same, as being filled with the Spirit:

Balaam was not a pagan prophet...according to Scripture...

Num 22:18 And Balaam answered and said unto the servants of Balak, If Balak would give me his house full of silver and gold, I cannot go beyond the word of the LORD my God, to do less or more.

Scripture states that Balaam was a prophet of the same God you and I worship...

In Christ
Jeff

Again, does one remain justified if he does not produce fruit?

Jhn 15:1 ¶ I am the true vine, and my Father is the husbandman.

2 Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away: and every [branch] that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit.

3 Now ye are clean through the word which I have spoken unto you.

4 Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me.

5 I am the vine, ye [are] the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.

6 If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast [them] into the fire, and they are burned.

Can a man who does not grow in the love of God and one another, day by day, claim to abide?

Can a man who is regenerate, be satisfied with a moment in time?

In Christ
Jeff

Num 22:18 And Balaam answered and said unto the servants of Balak, If Balak would give me his house full of silver and gold, I cannot go beyond the word of the LORD my God, to do less or more.

Scripture states that Balaam was a prophet of the same God you and I worship...

God may have used him and did... but he never knew him and his particular use of his prophetic gift was for his own financial gain and consequently 'a worker of iniquity'.

Rookie wrote:

""This is not the question at all is it. The real question is do we say yes to the Holy Spirit's commands? That is the only way that Christ manifests Himself to those who believe onto salvation.""

The Holy Spirit is a Dove and He will not invade ones life unless Christ is already there and the life of Christ is working in the believer by His Spirit that is in us. The Holy Spirit will convict the world of sin. Believing that Jesus Christ is the Son of God will bring salvation, then the Holy Spirit can do His work of Teacher in the regenerated believer, with his old mind being renewed to the Mind of Christ by the Holy Spirit Teacher.

First, John 14:16-17 And I will pray the Father, and He shall give you another Comforter, that He may abide with you for ever; Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.

This is the from without and the Holy Spirit leaving the believer, "with you", (Old Testament) to the Holy Spirit abiding and dwelling in you forever. (New Testament, new covenant)

Plus first, the Spirit of Christ is in you.
Rom 8:9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of His.

John 14:18-19 I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you. Yet a little while, and the world seeth me no more; but ye see me: because I live, ye shall live also.

So we have the Spirit of Christ, if not we are none of His. Then we have the Holy Spirit from the Father who speaks exactly what Jesus tells Him to speak to the believer, "for He will not speak of Himself but only what Jesus Christ gives Him from the Father."

John 14:20-21 At that day ye shall know that I am in my Father, and ye in me, and I in you. He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.

How is Jesus Christ manifest to the believer?

John 14:22-24 Judas saith unto him, not Iscariot, Lord, how is it that thou wilt manifest thyself unto us, and not unto the world? Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him. He that loveth me not keepeth not my sayings: and the word which ye hear is not mine, but the Father's which sent me.

The Holy Spirit brings forth the Christ that has been birthed in us by The Spirit of Christ, whom we are none of His without The Spirit of Christ.

What does the Spirit of Christ birthed in us do?

John 15:5-8 I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing. If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned. If ye abide in me, and my words abide in you, ye shall ask what ye will, and it shall be done unto you. Herein is my Father glorified, that ye bear much fruit; so shall ye be my disciples.

All this taught by the Holy Spirit that is put in us at our conversion by the prayer of Christ to the Father.

John 15:16 Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and that your fruit should remain: that whatsoever ye shall ask of the Father in my name, he may give it you.

John 15:26 But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me:

John 16:13-15 Howbeit when He, the Spirit of truth, is come, He will guide you into all truth: for He shall not speak of Himself; but whatsoever He shall hear, that shall He speak: and He will shew you things to come. He shall glorify me: for He shall receive of mine, and shall shew it unto you. All things that the Father hath are Mine: therefore said I, that He shall take of Mine, and shall shew it unto you.

The Holy Spirit teaching us the Christ that is in us, that is His whole purpose for our life in Christ. That is what Glorifies the Father, this Christ life that is now our all.

You cannot get away from it. Colossians 1:27-28 To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory: Whom we preach, warning every man, and teaching every man in all wisdom; that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus:

The answer to your question. Yes, if we want to know this Christ that is born again in us by the Incorruptable Seed of the Father.

In Christ: Phillip

Brother Phillip wrote:

The Holy Spirit is a Dove and He will not invade ones life unless Christ is already there and the life of Christ is working in the believer by His Spirit that is in us.

Scripture teaches that Christ is still a man and still sits at the right hand of the Father. Scripture teaches that God gives us His Holy Spirit as the seal of our coming redemption.

It is the work of the Holy Spirit to communicate to us the commands of our Savior Jesus Christ who sits in heaven and reigns over His kingdom. The work of the Holy Spirit is to communicate day by day the way we are suppose to go. The Holy Spirit is the yoke of Christ.

The fruit of this work by the Holy Spirit is to change the substance of what we hope in. If we abide, then we will have the heart that Christ has softened. If we abide, then we will have the mind that is tuned into His voice. If we abide, then we will learn to love as Christ loves us. The love of Christ is Christ in us, not the Man, but His desires.

In Christ
Jeff

Brother Ron wrote:

This man had experiences of God and claimed to be a servant of God but he was recognised as the author of Israel's sin at Baal Peor and was put to death as the people of Israel were about to enter the Promised land. Num 31:8, 16; Deut 23:4; Josh 13:22; 2Pet 2:15; Jude 1:11; Rev 2:14

I respectively disagree. First, the term "pagan" states that Balaam worshiped the god's of men. According to Scripture, Balaam acknowledged God as being his God.

Secondly, the story of Balaam is an example of a man who sold his relationship with God for the treasures of this world. He was tempted by Satan and fell.

You may say that a covenant did not exist between Balaam and God, yet the evidence of relationship is given to us. God warned Balaam just like He warned Cain. Both knew God, both rejected Him and took on the nature of their new father, the devil.

In Christ
Jeff

Brother Ron

Proverbs 2:

6 For the LORD gives wisdom;
From His mouth come knowledge and understanding;
7 He stores up sound wisdom for the upright;
He is a shield to those who walk uprightly;
8 He guards the paths of justice,
And preserves the way of His saints.
9 Then you will understand righteousness and justice,
Equity and every good path.
10 When wisdom enters your heart,
And knowledge is pleasant to your soul,
11 Discretion will preserve you;
Understanding will keep you,

Brother Ron you wrote:

This is one of only three references to the 'holy' Spirit in the Old Testament. (Psa 51:11; Is 63:10-11) The prevailing attribute of the Spirit in the Old Testament is 'power' not 'holiness'.

In the above Scripture, by what means does God impart His 'wisdom" into the hearts of the OT saint? By what means do the OT saints know His righteousness? By what means does He preserve the way of His OT saints?

In Christ
Jeff

According to Scripture, Balaam acknowledged God as being his God.

Secondly, the story of Balaam is an example of a man who sold his relationship with God for the treasures of this world. He was tempted by Satan and fell.

In the above Scripture, by what means does God impart His 'wisdom" into the hearts of the OT saint? By what means do the OT saints know His righteousness? By what means does He preserve the way of His OT saints?

Jeff,

Was it the Holy Spirit that hang on the Cross?

Are we born again by the Holy Spirit?

Why are we none of His if we don't have the Spirit of Christ.

Is the Spirit of Christ and The Holy Spirit the same entity when it comes to salvation.

What is the work of the Trinity?

Is there a part of God that says, I'll be a Father?

Is there a part of God that says, I'll be a Son?

If we are baptized into the Holy Spirit, where is the Spirit of Christ?

Is the Holy Spirit the exchanged life of the believer?

The Holy Spirit is not the Son, or the Father is not the Son, and the Son is neither of Them unless you are speaking of the God Head, The Father, The Son and the Holy Spirit which is the Trinity and One God.

The Holy Spirit is the revealer of the Son. We need to be filled with the Holy Spirit, only by Him will we see the Christ in us Who is our life.

There Is a part of God that says, How will man know that Christ is in them? I must tell them Myself, so that part of God, The Holy Spirit, is to teach the creature that we are in Christ and Christ is in us.
John 16:13-15 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come. He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew it unto you. All things that the Father hath are mine: therefore said I, that he shall take of mine, and shall shew it unto you.

That is why the Trinity had to come into the Plan of God before the foundation of the World. This to reveal this eternal Plan of Christ in the believer the Hope of Glory.
Ephesians 1:3-6 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ: According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will, To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.

The Work of Jesus Christ is done at our birthing of the Spirit of Christ in us. The work of the Holy Spirit is to reveal this Christ that is in us. They are not One

Is "the Lamb slain before the foundation of the world", The Holy Spirit? No, The Holy Spirit is the revealer of the Lamb that is Born Again in us. Lest why are we tripartite, beings? The double edged sword that separates the body, soul, and spirit, that the Word of God might brings us into His Father's House and Kingdom.

Rom 8:9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

Rom 8:11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.

2Cr 1:10 Who delivered us from so great a death, and doth deliver: in whom we trust that He will yet deliver [us

Christ in us Has "delivered" us by His Spirit and His Water of Life, born again in us by our New Spirit, which is the Spirit of Christ.

The Holy Spirit "doth deliver", by revealing this Christ that is in us to our renewing soul/mind to the Mind of Christ which we received at our rebirth.

God the Father "will deliver" us in Body with our new body like the Body of Jesus Christ.

Spirit, Soul/mind, Body/flesh
In Christ, Christ Life: Phillip

The Work of Jesus Christ is done at our birthing of the Spirit of Christ in us. The work of the Holy Spirit is to reveal this Christ that is in us. They are not One

Jhn 3:3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.

Jhn 3:7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.

1Pe 1:23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.

This is the word of Christ, finished at the Cross. Then returning that we might see Him again, that is Christ in us the Hope of Glory.

This is not the Holy Spirit. This is the Incorruptable Seed of the Father just like the Christ Seed in Mary.

The Holy Spirit teacher, not our salvation and not the Spirit of Christ, but the revealer of the Spirit of Christ and the Christ Life in us.

In Christ: Phillip

When you preach that God has his chosen, you use powerful words better than the K.J, men will try to imply an ism onto you, or put you in the category of Baallam, who many such prophets and priests (who became like the people) are making an evill mocke of the strait gate and I say wherefore by their fruits ye shal know them.

Ormly wrote:

philologos wrote:

According to Scripture, Balaam acknowledged God as being his God.

...or he claimed so

Secondly, the story of Balaam is an example of a man who sold his relationship with God for the treasures of this world. He was tempted by Satan and fell.

If you trace the origin of the Midianites and their associations you will see why I would never have trusted Balaam. I think God would have said to Balaam..."I never knew you" even though Balaam claimed otherwise. I man does not need to know God to be used by him viz Caiaphas.

and Pharaoh. But then there was Adam, who did....and him without a sinful nature.

[/quote}

Try these scriptures and see that those that bear thorns and briars are cursed ground. Is there really any preachers fruit that is like pears or peaches?

Now see this, learn to tell the difference between the mulitude of Baalams and the singular Paul and David. (chosen saints of today that are like powerful and holy) Matt15:17-20 perceive ye not, that whatsoever goeth in at the mouth, descendeth down into the belly, and is cast out into the draught?
18 But those things which proceed out of the mouth come from the heart, and they defile a man.
19 For out of the heart come evil thoughts, murder, breaking of wedlock, whoredom, theft, false witness bearing, blasphemy.
20 These are the things which defile a man. But to eat with unwashen hands, defileth not a man.
(1526 Modern standard tyndale W.t.n.t)
Acts 23:6-8 6 ¶ When Paul perceived that the one part were saduces, and the other pharyses: He cried out in the council. Men and brethren I am a pharisaye, the son of a pharisaye. Of hope, and of resurrection from death I am judged.
7 And when he had so said, there arose a debate between the pharises and the saduces, and the multitude was divided.
8 For the saduces say that there is no resurrection, neither angel, nor spirit. But the pharyses grant both

How many knees are there bowed to Baall? Understand this, a system of hard boundage, deciet, broken bag, and false weights is not a Christian system (onlu in name)
The work that we doe is in servyce to Christ and not to men. Understand and see and the Lord send Helyas, otherwise ye perceive not
I thesa 4:9-12
9 ¶ But as touching brotherly love, ye need not that I write unto you. For ye are taught of God to love one another.
10 Ye and that thing verily ye do unto all the brethren, which are thorowout all Macedonia. We beseech you brethren that ye increase, more and more,
11 and that ye study to be quiet, and to meddle with your own business, and to work with your own hands, as we commanded you:
12 that ye may behave yourselves honestly toward them that are without and that nothing be lacking unto you

Only the gospel of Iesu Christ, Godde's sonne and never given to me of Calvin, Mr.Baptist or denominatal differences, only by revalacion of God

THank you brethren for not putting such peresecuted into a casket, yet death is to me advantage and Christ is to me life

Compliments,

There are three that bear record, record of what?

1 John 5:1-13 Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: and every one that loveth him that begat loveth him also that is begotten of him. By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments. For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous. For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith. Who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God? This is he that came by water and blood, even Jesus Christ; not by water only, but by water and blood. And it is the Spirit that beareth witness, because the Spirit is truth. For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one. And there are three that bear witness in earth, the Spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one. If we receive the witness of men, the witness of God is greater: for this is the witness of God which he hath testified of his Son. He that believeth on the Son of God hath the witness in himself: he that believeth not God hath made him a liar; because he believeth not the record that God gave of his Son. And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life. These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.

The Father, the Son (Word) and the Holy Spirit all bear witness that the Son of God gives us eternal life. That the life of the Son gives us son life in Christ. The mystery, "The only Begotten Son of God", never mentioned in the old testament until Paul in the new testament brought it forth, That is "Christ in you the hope of Glory".

These three bear witness, They are One in the God Head and separate in the Trinity in the work They do in the Believer. Christ in you, new birth and life eternal, The Holy Spirit, the revealer of this "Mystery", The Father, all His Plan before the foundation of the world, before Adam was ever created or anything else as the Bible reveals in its truth from Genesis to Revelations.

Be more specific if this does not help.

In Christ: Phillip

When you preach that God has his chosen, you use powerful words better than the K.J, men will try to imply an ism onto you, or put you in the category of Baallam, who many such prophets and priests (who became like the people) are making an evill mocke of the strait gate and I say wherefore by their fruits ye shal know them.

I would make a clear distinction between the world post Acts 2 and the world prior.

I believe that there is a distinction. However, this distinction is simply the enduement of God's people with power for ministry, so as to make all who have experienced the baptism of the Holy Spirit a prophetic community. For that is the heart of Joel's prophecy.

Men themselves post Acts 2 would be the house of God.

I believe men were always the house of God. For the temple on earth was a mere copy of the one in heaven. And the one in heaven is an eternal temple that has always existed in every dispensation. It's always been a reality, for it always has existed in heaven.

This is a holy priesthood energized to offer up spiritual sacrifices to the Lord.

The idea of the universal priesthood of all believers is not merely a New Testament phenomenon. For 1 Peter 2's idea for this doctrine comes from Deuteronomy, in which God had called the whole of the nation to be priests unto God. And so long as the people of Israel exercised faith in God did they fulfill this spiritual calling.

But it began in the heart.

Indeed, and such only was possible because of the activity of the Spirit, as Romans 3 makes clear. One cannot be circumcised in the heart apart from the abiding presence of the Holy Spirit. This is something man in himself simply cannot do.

As wonderful as was all the OT Saints enjoyed- I still believe the New Testament saints know the working of the Holy Spirit in a fuller way than at any time in history.

I agree that in the present age a greater working of the Holy Spirit has been wrought. However, in regard to regeneration and personal holiness before God, we stand the same. That is why we can look at the lives of the saints of old that made it into Hebrews 11, and be exhorted to emulate their faith and lives.

For such men could confess that they were not of this world. Indeed, as Jacob said before Pharaoh, "The years of my sojourning have been 130 years." Just as Hebrews says, they were strangers and exiles here on earth. Such could not be their confession if they were not men born from above. And because of such, men like Moses chose to suffer ill-treatment with the people of God rather than enjoying the pleasures of sin which is but for a season. The reproach of Christ was a greater treasure to these men than the treasures of Egypt.

I respect your view but I disagree with it.

:-)

This verse is a call to continual filling it does not imply that the vessel is empty before it is filled. The tenses require that it really ought to be translated 'continue to be filled with the Holy Spirit'.

Of course, Paul hopes it be the ongoing experience of the believer, so that they are continually full. But there is always the threat to the believer that should they waiver in faith and live beneath God's purpose for them, that they will be in want of the fullness of God's Spirit.

Jimmy
I know that you are one to dig into things a bit deeper... have you noticed that 'being filled with the Spirit' is really Luke's phraseology and is not used by other NT writers. Paul is not referring to a crisis in Ephesians but to a steady process as it shown by the Present Imperative as distinct to the Aorist Imperative in John 20:22...

Luke seems to use the phrase 'was filled with the Spirit' as a generic term for a crisis event of the Spirit. It might be seen as a synonym for the Spirit 'falling on' people.

There seems, with some, to be an assumption that only the regenerate can be 'filled with the Spirit' but John Baptist was 'filled with the Spirit' from his mother's womb so are we to imply that he was regenerated at the moment of his natural birth? Surely not?

There are several Old Testament references which, by implication, point to 'being filled with the Spirit, but as a moment of special empowering. Joshua, Bezaleel and Aholiab, and Ezekiel all fall into this category but to read the accounts makes it very plain that we are reading about 'anointings' and 'equipping events' rather than transformations of character. This seems to fulfil the Old Testament pattern that the Spirit is evidenced primarily as a giver of 'power to do', rather that the New Testament pattern of 'power to be'.

What do you think?

This seems to fulfil the Old Testament pattern that the Spirit is evidenced primarily as a giver of 'power to do', rather that the New Testament pattern of 'power to be'.

After that you will go to Gibeah of God, where there is a Philistine outpost. As you approach the town, you will meet a procession of prophets coming down from the high place with lyres, tambourines, flutes and harps being played before them, and they will be prophesying. 6 The Spirit of the LORD will come upon you in power, and you will prophesy with them; [b]and you will be changed into a different person.[/b] 7 Once these signs are fulfilled, do whatever your hand finds to do, for God is with you.
8 "Go down ahead of me to Gilgal. I will surely come down to you to sacrifice burnt offerings and fellowship offerings, but you must wait seven days until I come to you and tell you what you are to do."
9 As Saul turned to leave Samuel, God changed Saul's heart, and all these signs were fulfilled that day.,bold mine.

I am sure that you have a good answer to that scripture. ;-)

6 The Spirit of the LORD will come upon you in power, and you will prophesy with them; and you [b]will be changed into a different person[/b]. 7 Once these signs are fulfilled, do whatever your hand finds to do, for God is with you.
8 "Go down ahead of me to Gilgal. I will surely come down to you to sacrifice burnt offerings and fellowship offerings, but you must wait seven days until I come to you and tell you what you are to do."
9 As Saul turned to leave Samuel, [b]God changed Saul's heart[/b], and all these signs were fulfilled that day.,"

This is the only reference of its kind in the Old Testament, as far as I know, so it deserves some careful examination.

Saul, as we know from the record, was a somewhat shy and retiring character and one very unwilling to take on the role of leader. After this event we find him acting very decisively and his independence ultimately becomes his undoing.

I am not sure what version you are quoting from here but most versions have the translation 'turned (in)to another man' in verse 6. Saul certainly was turned to another man in terms of his character as a leader, but this is not what I really meant when I spoke of the Spirit not primarily relating to 'character' in the Old Testament. I had in mind, moral character. Saul became a 'captain'. This is the word that God used when he sent Samuel to anoint him with oil. “To morrow about this time I will send thee a man out of the land of Benjamin, and thou shalt anoint him to be [b]captain[/b] over my people Israel, that he may save my people out of the hand of the Philistines: for I have looked upon my people, because their cry is come unto me.” (1Samuel 9:16 KJVS) This word 'captain' really signifies a military leader and Saul did become such.

The other part of the quotation is that God changed, or turned, Saul's heart. This is the fulfillment of the promise of the Spirit of the LORD coming on him 'in power'. We are not speaking of 'heart' here as in the promise of a new one in Ezekiel but simply as the inner workings of a man. This passage specifically speaks of the Spirit coming 'upon' Saul and again is a different image to that when Christ promised that the Spirit would be 'in' them.

The sequel to Saul's 'change of heart' is found when he rebels against the word of God. “And he sent, and brought him in. Now he was ruddy, and withal of a beautiful countenance, and goodly to look to. And the LORD said, Arise, anoint him: for this is he. Then Samuel took the horn of oil, and anointed him in the midst of his brethren: and the Spirit of the LORD came upon David from that day forward. So Samuel rose up, and went to Ramah. But the Spirit of the LORD departed from Saul, and an evil spirit from the LORD troubled him. And Saul’s servants said unto him, Behold now, an evil spirit from God troubleth thee.” (1Samuel 16:12-15 KJVS) Here we find that the equipping of the Spirit to be 'captain' is effectively given to David and removed from Saul. Saul's 'leadership' abilities were gone and his kingdom descends into chaos.

So although, superficially, this might seem an exception to the norm, on examination, we see that it only confirms the fact that this was a change not of moral character but rather a specific empowering for a specific task. It is also a sobering warning for those who interpret the fact that God's 'gifts and callings are without repentance' in an absolute manner; this anointing was not 'without repentance'.

It is also a sobering warning for those who interpret the fact that God's 'gifts and callings are without repentance' in an absolute manner; this anointing was not 'without repentance'.

Simply put, if the life of Saul is indicative of what we are to expect in regeneration (the New Birth) we are in deep trouble. This man disobeyed a direct order from God. This is an eyes wide open disobedience. This is the rebellion that is as the sin of witchcraft. This is stubborness with a high hand. Surely one could not believe that this man was born again? When he sinned he would not agree rightly with God on what he did. Further evidence he was not changed. When it was all said and done he wanted Samuel to walk across with him before the people as a show of acceptance or something. This all in contrast to David who was in a Psalm 51 experience.

...have you noticed that 'being filled with the Spirit' is really Luke's phraseology and is not used by other NT writers. Paul is not referring to a crisis in Ephesians but to a steady process as it shown by the Present Imperative as distinct to the Aorist Imperative in John 20:22...

Indeed, the phrase is primarily Luke's. And indeed, Paul isn't directly referring to a crisis experience in Ephesians. However, I don't think such a thing, practically speaking, won't be without its crisis moments as Luke makes clear.

Luke seems to use the phrase 'was filled with the Spirit' as a generic term for a crisis event of the Spirit. It might be seen as a synonym for the Spirit 'falling on' people.

Indeed. Roger Stronstad has shown quite convincingly (in my opinion) in his masters thesis "The Charismatic Theology of St. Luke" that Luke's crisis experiences and the vocabulary to describe those experiences are in continuity with what we see recorded in Kings/Chronicles where the Spirit of the Lord falls upon/comes upon/clothes various people.

There seems, with some, to be an assumption that only the regenerate can be 'filled with the Spirit' but John Baptist was 'filled with the Spirit' from his mother's womb so are we to imply that he was regenerated at the moment of his natural birth? Surely not?

I don't believe John was regenerate from his mother's womb. For I think the Scriptures make abundantly clear that regeneration is impossible apart from receiving the word of God, and infants, let alone a still developing fetus surely doesn't have the faculty to do such. Then again, John seems to have been the good Pentecostal by jumping a pew in his mother's womb when Elizabeth came near a pregnant Mary. :-)

This seems to fulfil the Old Testament pattern that the Spirit is evidenced primarily as a giver of 'power to do', rather that the New Testament pattern of 'power to be'.

I agree that to be "filled with the Spirit" in the Old Testament is primarily thought of in terms of "power to do." However, such is keeping with Luke's usage of the same terminology in Luke/Acts as well. In fact, the chief example of this is seen in Christ's own Spirit baptism and the baptism of the Spirit of the Church in Acts 2. Surely in the waters of the Jordan Christ did not receive power to be, but rather power to do. And likewise, the emphasis on Acts 2 is not power to be, but power to do.

And I agree that "The Holy Spirit" as a title in the Old Testament is rather foreign, and its usage is used in the contexts you pointed out. I think in regard to Paul's particular usage of the phrase, the phrase is used in a rather polemical way to combat those within the church who thought holiness to be attained through law keeping, rather than as something that comes from the Spirit of God. Rather than being attained through law keeping, Paul shows that holiness is and has always been attained through justifying faith. And such he attributes to the activity of the Spirit, who makes one inwardly what they need to be.

This is something that the prophets of old emphasized from time and time again, "I am the Lord that sanctifies you (makes you holy)." And eschatologically speaking, the prophets longed for the day when Israel would attribute their righteousness to the Lord instead of themselves, to confess "The Lord is our Righteousness!"

I agree that to be "filled with the Spirit" in the Old Testament is primarily thought of in terms of "power to do." However, such is keeping with Luke's usage of the same terminology in Luke/Acts as well. In fact, the chief example of this is seen in Christ's own Spirit baptism and the baptism of the Spirit of the Church in Acts 2. Surely in the waters of the Jordan Christ did not receive power to be, but rather power to do. And likewise, the emphasis on Acts 2 is not power to be, but power to do.

Have we never talked about this?

I'm sure we have?

Why do you describe Christ's 'anointing' as Spirit Baptism?

Because it is at that time Christ received the power to do the ministry that God had called him to do. For it is after His experience in the Jordan that He went into the wilderness "full of the Holy Spirit," (Luke 4:1) and when He returned to Galilee it was "in the power of the Spirit." (Luke 4:14) This is in keeping with Luke's Spirit baptism language.

THe annoting has been used falsely o we know, how those covetous lucre filled charismatics are!
Here's John, I John 2:26-29 (W.TD.N.T) This have I written unto you, as concerning them that deceive you.
27 And the anointing which ye have received of him dwelleth in you. And ye need not that any man teach you: but as that annointing teacheth you all things, and is true, and is no lie: and as it taught you, even so bide therein.
28 ¶ And now babes abide in him, that when he shall appear, we may be bold, and not be made ashamed of him at his coming.
29 If ye know that he is righteous, know also that he which followeth righteousness, is born of him

Now brother shal betray the brother to death, because I see that many in the churches truly donot love their brother Iacob, how suche are Esau and Cain. FOr these trusted in the world, and their works were evil, which God iudged them by.

I Peter 2:19-25
19 For it commeth of grace, if a man for conscience toward God endure grief, suffering wrongfully.
20 For what praise is it, if when ye be buffeted for your faults, ye take it patiently? But and if when ye do well, ye suffer wrong and take it patiently, then is there thanke with God.
21 Hereunto verily were ye called, for Christ also suffered for our sakes: leaving us an ensample that ye should follow his steps,
22 which did no sin, neither was there guile found in his mouth:
23 which when he was reviled, reviled not again: when he suffered, he threatened not: but committed the cause to him that judgeth righteously,
24 which his own self bare our sins in his body on the tree, that we should be delivered from sin and should live in righteousness. By whose stripes ye were healed.
25 For ye were as sheep which go astray: but are now returned unto the shepherd, and bishop of your souls

Can you carry Salvation and health in the same book, try the Matthe/Tyndale (o and n.t) printed out avaiable almost nowhere (call it by fayth)
For Lord thy salvaion is nie to them that fear thee,

For here is the seperation of those that walk after the course of this world, and those that verily walk after Christ
Revel 11:9 And the third angel followed them saying with a loud voice: If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or on his hand,
10 the same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured in the cup of his wrath. And he shall be punished in fire and brimstone, before the holy angels, and before the lamb.
11 And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up evermore. And they have no rest day nor night, which worship the beast, and his image, and whosoever receiveth the print of his name.
12 Here is the patience of saints. Here are they that keep the commandments and the faight of Iesu.

Too much debate to put out with water, I know what comes out of the hertes of men, so no suprise punches can be pulled.

T.Merritt

Risen antiSathanas
Christ will tread Satan under you feet shortly

THe annoting has been used falsely o we know, how those covetous lucre filled charismatics are!
Here's John, I John 2:26-29 (W.TD.N.T) This have I written unto you, as concerning them that deceive you.
27 And the anointing which ye have received of him dwelleth in you. And ye need not that any man teach you: but as that annointing teacheth you all things, and is true, and is no lie: and as it taught you, even so bide therein.
28 ¶ And now babes abide in him, that when he shall appear, we may be bold, and not be made ashamed of him at his coming.
29 If ye know that he is righteous, know also that he which followeth righteousness, is born of him

Now brother shal betray the brother to death, because I see that many in the churches truly donot love their brother Iacob, how suche are Esau and Cain. FOr these trusted in the world, and their works were evil, which God iudged them by.

I Peter 2:19-25
19 For it commeth of grace, if a man for conscience toward God endure grief, suffering wrongfully.
20 For what praise is it, if when ye be buffeted for your faults, ye take it patiently? But and if when ye do well, ye suffer wrong and take it patiently, then is there thanke with God.
21 Hereunto verily were ye called, for Christ also suffered for our sakes: leaving us an ensample that ye should follow his steps,
22 which did no sin, neither was there guile found in his mouth:
23 which when he was reviled, reviled not again: when he suffered, he threatened not: but committed the cause to him that judgeth righteously,
24 which his own self bare our sins in his body on the tree, that we should be delivered from sin and should live in righteousness. By whose stripes ye were healed.
25 For ye were as sheep which go astray: but are now returned unto the shepherd, and bishop of your souls

Can you carry Salvation and health in the same book, try the Matthe/Tyndale (o and n.t) printed out avaiable almost nowhere (call it by fayth)
For Lord thy salvaion is nie to them that fear thee,

For here is the seperation of those that walk after the course of this world, and those that verily walk after Christ
Revel 11:9 And the third angel followed them saying with a loud voice: If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or on his hand,
10 the same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured in the cup of his wrath. And he shall be punished in fire and brimstone, before the holy angels, and before the lamb.
11 And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up evermore. And they have no rest day nor night, which worship the beast, and his image, and whosoever receiveth the print of his name.
12 Here is the patience of saints. Here are they that keep the commandments and the faight of Iesu.

Too much debate to put out with water, I know what comes out of the hertes of men, so no suprise punches can be pulled.

T.Merritt

Risen antiSathanas
Christ will tread Satan under you feet shortly

KingJimmy wrote:
Surely in the waters of the Jordan Christ did not receive power to be, but rather power to do. And likewise, the emphasis on Acts 2 is not power to be, but power to do.

When Jesus was baptised and heaven opened the Fathers commendation of him was in his being his Son. I don't quite know what you are talking about anyway but the account is this: 21When all the people were being baptized, Jesus was baptized too. And as he was praying, heaven was opened 22and the Holy Spirit descended on him in bodily form like a dove. And a voice came from heaven: "You are my Son, whom I love; with you I am well pleased." Luke 3:21,22I believe that this was a power to be baptism. Not a power to do as you say. I think that they are connected in some way. You cannot really seperate the two I feel. I think that Jesus' power to do came out of who he was and a revealed knowledge within himself of who he was in relation to his Father. In other words he received the power of him being the son of god. The wilderness was a test of whether he would act like a son of God.

I still think that being filled in the Old testament was a one way transaction of God to man. There was no way of reciprocity from mans side, there is no invitation for him to come and sup with him. Even David spoke of the courts of the Lord not the Holy of holies where we can boldly come.

THe annoting has been used falsely o we know, how those covetous lucre filled charismatics are!

:-? I'm sure there are Charismatics who are not quite like this. Some, actually, are just as anti-prosperity as any of us.

Too much debate to put out with water, I know what comes out of the hertes of men, so no suprise punches can be pulled.

Just wondered what this means?

Because it is at that time Christ received the power to do the ministry that God had called him to do. For it is after His experience in the Jordan that He went into the wilderness "full of the Holy Spirit," (Luke 4:1) and when He returned to Galilee it was "in the power of the Spirit." (Luke 4:14) This is in keeping with Luke's Spirit baptism language.

mmm? Who was the Baptiser? Didn't I read that it is Christ who baptises in the Holy Spirit? Did he baptise himself?

Alternatively, if this is a Old Testament kind of anointing with power, and Christ called it an 'anointing' rather than a baptism, it fits the pattern perfectly. The disciples were given authority to heal the sick, cast out demons and raise the dead... all a long time before they received their 'Baptism in Spirit'.

What say you?

THe annoting has been used falsely o we know, how those covetous lucre filled charismatics are!

You may understand what you are posting but I doubt that anyone else does and as the purpose of these forums is communication it is not really working very well.

I believe that this was a power to be baptism.

I think it is calling this 'anointing' a 'baptism in Spirit' that causes so much of the confusion. See also my note to Jimmy about Christ's unique role as Baptiser in the Holy Spirit.