Two converted Jewish scholars exposing polluted teachings about grace ...

Additions to and subtractions from true grace exposed and discussed:

"Some 30 years ago, believers faced a pervasive problem called legalism. Dr. Michael Brown shares how the pendulum has swung to the other extreme to something called "hyper grace." True grace is precious, but hyper grace could lead to great deception and cause many to fall away from God."

http://sidroth.org/television/tv-archives/dr-michael-brown

Thank you for this!! I finally saw someone answer this question to my satisfaction! Thank you Jesus!

Fundamental DECEPTION:
All your "future" sins are forgiven in advance.

People come into the jail trying to teach the women this doctrine of demons.

God bless you,
Lisa

You're welcome. I agree it is SO VERY sad that when Satan has cheated people out of everything in life, and they are in jail, it is so horrible that even there they hear "another gospel" (as Paul says it) which cannot help them but only sink them deeper in the pit that they have been in.

Sin is what separates us from God. If we are ignoring the voice of the Holy Ghost as he tries to lead us to repentance (believing the lie that future sins are forgiven without our confessing them - see I John 1:9), then we shut off our only hope for cleansing ... and thus our only hope for a relationship with God.

May God have mercy on the deceivers and also on the ones being deceived, and somehow let the light shine in.

Lysa,

Dear Sister I would respond by saying that yes, all our sins - past, present, and future are forgiven. But here's the difference. A truly converted person by the power of God, when he or she hears that grace, it does not cause them to think, "Oh, all my sins are gone, therefore I can go sin all I want." Rather, the true Christian says, "If all my sins are gone and God has covered my sins past present and future sins in Christ, if God loves me this much then I don't want to sin anymore! I want to live for Him and Him alone!" If you have heard any of Paul Washer's sermons, he talks exactly about that. True grace does cause us to live holy lives, but true grace also liberates our souls from legalistic burdens.

- Michael Liao

Michael is, in my opinion, spot on. If the sacrifice of Christ did not forgive future tense sins, then we are all hopeless. But a person regenerated will no longer desire to live in sin.

Fundamental question. If each time I miss the mark I am required to confess that sin and be forgiven for that individual action, what hope do I have if I forget one?

That's a great question. This is where justification by faith is so important. Pastor Charles Leiter (Paul Washer's Mentor) in his book "Justification and Regeneration", talked about that issue. If a husband and a wife got into a quarrel and the husband leaves the home slamming the door (paraphrasing), if he is a true Christian and he confesses his sin to God and makes right with his wife, yes he is forgiven - but he is already forgiven in Christ with or without confession. Now here's a second scenario, the husband and wife get into a quarrel, the husband leaves the home slamming the door, but here he gets into a car crash and dies before ever being able to confess his sin to God and before his wife. Is he still justified? Yes! Because Christ has taken the husbands sins past, present, and future on Himself. If it was based on his confession, he would have no hope. If it's based on his confession, he would go to hell because he missed that one sin and God being the perfect God will not allow sin into heaven. That's why we hope in justification by faith alone in Christ alone. Our hope will never be on our performance, but on Christ. That is not to say we do not confess and repent of our sins, but those things are not the basis for salvation, but the fruit of salvation.

"what about if I forget to repent" is a intellectual concept, not biblical teaching. Does the Holy Spirit also forget?

Rev 3:19  As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten: be zealous therefore, and repent.

Jesus will correct all that are his, that are inside his love. The rebuke is the way that correction comes and is proof that we are still under grace. He does not however repent for us, grants acceptance of repentance without our admission to be wrong, or does grant anything in advance by intellectual reasoning that he basically already did forgive us for everything we potentially are able to commit.

be zealous therefore, and repent - means acknowledge your sin and move away from it instead of excusing it, or rationalizing it away

That's why this "future sins are already forgiven" concept is an intellectual one, you arrive at the conclusion by rational reason without actually being part of the process as in Rev 3:19. It then is an abstraction without true validity because Jesus the person is not involved.

Another example:

1 John 5:16  If any man see his brother sin a sin which is not unto death, he shall ask, and he shall give him life for them that sin not unto death. There is a sin unto death: I do not say that he shall pray for it.

Prayer from a brother also can restore the sinner (that is a believer) of minor sins. Proof that this prayer changes the person's stand is this: "and he shall give him life".

Being quite unashamedly in the hyper grace camp, whatever that may mean, there is not going to be a resolution to this issue until Jesus comes again. So discussing this again is a moot point in my mind.

But, what I will say is this. Any doctrine/teaching that does not glorify the Lord Jesus Christ and cause me to love my brethren more is of the anti Christ spirit.

Whatever side of the fence you sit on on this issue, let the person you believe in and the message you carry, bare fruit to God. Loving the Lord Jesus to greater levels of intimacy and loving the people he brings across your path!!!

twayneb wrote:
Fundamental question. If each time I miss the mark I am required to confess that sin and be forgiven for that individual action, what hope do I have if I forget one?

It’s a lifestyle of repentance... The Word of God says that "If you KNOW to do good and don’t do it, then TO YOU it is a sin” (James 4.17)

Do you or do you not agree with the word of God since I've not read any source you've supplied (from the Bible)for your beliefs?

1 John 1:9 "...... he will forgive ......."
Clearly not "he has already forgiven".
Your future sins are not already forgiven. They are already paid for.
That's what I see from scripture.
Let's rather walk according to the Spirit so we don't gratify the sinful nature.
Let's build ourselves up in this most holy faith.

Take the Word as it is.

With love brothers and sisters.

Good Theology comes from taking the Word as it is written. Jesus said that the Son of Man would give His life "as a ransom for many." Not for all, and not with any guarantees for certain groups of people. Those issues are addressed in other passages.

The sacrifice of Jesus on the cross enables God to save every man, but it does not obligate Him to save any one. Sinners who repent and ask for that death to be the substitute for the death they owe will be saved. Those who try other tricks so as to be able to continue in their sin will find themselves guilty and exposed, without a claim to a share in the Kingdom of God.

Again, wisdom from above is pure, peaceable, reasonable, and full of good fruit. His ways are just, His love is vast and complete, His quest to fill the halls of His kingdom with the souls of men knows no limit.

But His justice is sure. No man comes to the Father who is not covered in the blood of the Son.

Thank you brothers for this discussion on grace and the abuse of grace by some teachers.

What about the issue of confessing our sins, which one grace teacher says that Christians no longer need to do? 1 John 1:9) makes it very clear that if we confess our sins that He is faithful and just to forgive us of our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness."

As has already been mentioned, what about the sins that we forget? Also in 1 John the Word says that "If we walk in the light, as He is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus cleanses us from all sin." Walking in the light means that any sin that we have knowledge of will not be tolerated, but will be immediately confessed and repented of. To walk in known sin is to walk in darkness.

There is one well known grace teacher that is teaching that not only is it unncessary for Christians to confess their sins, but that the Holy Spirit is not convicting Christians
of their sins.

Sin is harmful to a Christian because until dealt with and put under the blood, it breaks our fellowship with God. The confession of sin is so that fellowship will be restored.

When a Christian sins, he does not loose his salvation, he is still a child of God, however if a Christian continues to live in willful sin, he is on a very dangerous path, and could end up in (Hebrews 10:26).

Praise God that Jesus Christ not only died to save us from the penalty of sin, but to deliver us from sinning. If we walk in the Spirit , we will not fulfill the lusts of the flesh.

Mike

Lysa: Sorry for the delay, but life happens. I did not want to ignore your question to me.

I wanted to preface my remarks this way. It has been my observation that one really good way to turn attention from seeking truth to establishing prejudice is to carefully phrase the object one is speaking about. I am a bit amused by the term "hyper-grace", as if an unmerited gift could ever by too free. The prefix "hyper" carries with it an immediate negative connotation. None of us would argue at all that we can only be saved by the unmerited grace of God, and by putting faith in that gift of grace. This is foundational Christianity, and unarguable doctrine. But really, I think the question should be the one you brought up originally. Does God's gift of grace bring about a forgiveness conditional upon our remaining "sin-free", or does that grace extend also to sins that we have not yet committed. Does each new infraction bring with it the necessity to be forgiven all over again, or is that infraction already forgiven even prior to its occurrence?

I think we tend, sometimes, to quickly classify people in the body and make assumptions about what they believe. If someone says that God's grace covers even our future sins, we immediately group them with those who we classify as once saved, always saved, or with those who teach that God loves everyone to the extent that He will not pour out wrath on anyone. We put all of this in one basket and label it "hyper-grace". Actually, the belief that one cannot ever lose salvation is an error of not looking at the whole counsel of scripture. The belief that God could never send anyone to hell is a heresy and a total misunderstanding of the concept of who God really is.

That being said, I do believe that the grace of God covers not only the sins that I have committed in the past, but also those I have not yet committed. As a person who is born again, I do not believe that if I blow it and sin that I am now in a state of not being born again and must be re-forgiven or "born again again". I would like to share with you a few scriptures and comments that I believe are applicable to the discussion.

In the Psalms, David gave a prophecy which Paul quoted as he wrote his letter to the Romans: Ps. 32:1-2, "A Psalm of David, Maschil. Blessed is he whose transgression is forgiven, whose sin is covered. Blessed is the man unto whom the LORD imputeth not iniquity, and in whose spirit there is no guile." As Paul quotes he says this, "Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered. Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin." Notice that Paul did not say, "has not imputed sin", but, "will not impute sin."

Paul makes this statement again in 2 Cor. 5:19. He says, "Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new. And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation; To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation."

God is no longer imputing my sins unto me. This very statement is the reason that the Jews rejected the gospel and wanted to kill Paul. They thought this statement was heresy. They were living under a law that condemned, but never did anything to end the condemnation. It pronounced judgement, but offered no cure.

Paul said in Eph. 2:14-15 (it would be good to read the entire chapter, but for sake of space I will quote only two or three verses). "For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us; Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace; And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby:" It is interesting here that Paul does not say that the enmity between us and God was our acts of sin. Rather, he says the enmity was the law itself. Now we know that the law was Holy, just, righteous, and Godly. It came from God. But Scripture tells us that sin is not imputed where there is no law (Romans 5:13). So it was the law, the picture of God's standard, that judged us and condemned us before God. God judged our sin by the law. Our sin was totally unacceptable in His sight. So, He sent Jesus to pay the penalty demanded by the law and reconcile us. He put the law to death on the cross and by His sacrifice we now have peace with God.

Hebrews 10 (the entire chapter) but specifically verse 1 and 10 for sake of brevity.
Heb 10:1 For the law having a shadow of good things to come, and not the very image of the things, can never with those sacrifices which they offered year by year continually make the comers thereunto perfect.
Heb 10:10 By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.
Heb 10:11 And every priest standeth daily ministering and offering oftentimes the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins:
Heb 10:12 But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God;

Here we find the sacrifice of the body of Jesus was done once. (The words for all were added by the translators and do not appear in the original text) This does not mean once for all men, but in the context of the chapter can only mean once for all time. In verse 12 it is reiterated by the statement "for ever" This word for ever is the same word used in verse 1 for continually. It means in perpetuity. The sacrifice of Christ does not need to be reapplied over and over again each time I miss the mark. Jesus can never again step from the throne and climb upon a cross to pay for a new sin. The sacrifice is for all sins, for all time.

We appropriate this sacrifice when we turn from sin and by faith receive God's grace.

I think what makes this seem so foreign to many people is that we are so focused at times on our flesh. We tend to have a carnal mindset. This is evidenced when we say things like, "Well the Bible cannot mean that even future sins are forgiven. If that were the case, then what prevents a person from simply saying a prayer for forgiveness and then continuing to live a life of sin because, after all, they are "forgiven".

But that question ignores what happens when a person is truly born again. When we are born again, we become new creatures. Old things are passed away, all things are become new. Paul anticipated the same question when he got to what we call the 6th chapter of Romans. What am I trying to say then, shall we continue in sin that grace may abound. God forbid. You see, when we are born again, our spirit is regenerated (John 3). We are dead to the flesh, dead to the old man of sin, and alive unto God. How can one who is dead to sin desire to live any longer in that sin?

So should we repent when we sin? Well...yes. Repentance does not mean a prayer for forgiveness, nor does it mean confession. Although, we may do both of those things in the process. Repentance is turning from that sin and going in the opposite direction. Every time I have sinned, I have had this reaction within myself to my actions, "What on earth am I doing. This grieves me and I know it grieves God. God, I am so sorry that I have done this. This is not consistent with who You have caused me to be in Christ. Lord, I turn from this and ask you go give me the grace to never go back this way again." This should be the reaction of all who are born again. No born again man will desire to continue in sin. It is a total impossibility. If such a man exists, I fear he has never been born again.

Hope that helps explain where I am coming from.

Sin is harmful to a Christian because until dealt with and put under the blood, it breaks our fellowship with God. The confession of sin is so that fellowship will be restored.

This is a very important point in my mind. So much of what the free-grace theology folks discuss seems to center on losing ones salvation but that seems like a very man-centered point of view; so much more is lost when the Christian lives in willful sin.

Fellowship with God is lost, grieving His heart.

Priestly prayer ministry is lost, robbing those around us of heaven's blessings.

Spirit-filled ministry is lost, robbing the Church of encouragement, exhortation, and edification.

Such terrible loss suffered by so many when the Christian lives in sin.

In Christ,

Ron

In an intellectual discussion, it is a reasonable point to wonder whether people who are born again lose their salvation on a regular basis when they fall into some sin along their daily path.

But somehow it is different when we use a relationship-based discussion.

When my wife and I come into some interpersonal strife, we do not divorce and remarry as our solution to the problem of the day. Rather we learn to confess and forgive one another, sometimes easily and sometimes with more grinding reluctance. But we look to a long range commitment to help us through, as we share goals for our future. We treasure things bigger than ourselves- our children and their children, our reputation in society, and of course the promises we have made to God.

Dealing with future sins falls into that relationship I work on with God everyday. I am committed to a sinless life, the expectation of my beloved Father. But I do sin from time to time, preferring something in my path over my normal obedience and against what I know is best for me. My Father is not pleased, but because we are in relationship, He lets me know!

I am not as one boxing in the dark, swinging punches at shadows and illusions. I know fellowship has been broken because my spirit has been alerted, and my repentance tools are called into action. Repentance is not just something I fumbled through once at my conversion, but a character quality that gets used and improved as my pursuit of righteousness and pleasing my Father continues.

This I believe to be true, that God hears every prayer uttered, but those who pray with repentant hearts hear Him back. He knows how to keep those who belong to Him, and how to direct those caught in sin to repentance and restoration. When people live in that kind of fellowship, their joy and assurance of salvation will not be broken.

But those who think they have a magic ticket to sin because they went forward once at some church meeting... they have not come to know God.

More than that is lost, the gospel is lost - the substitute sounds like that:

"You shall not surely die, Jesus abolished sin, just remember where there is no law there is no sin"

it's a classic, now modernized bait offer some find irresistible.

by Sidewalk on 2014/1/2 11:18:20

We should and must walk with circumcised hearts and we do as Christians for the most part, we always have.

Where sin abounds grace does much more abound and in Him we are reminded the only way to get to the Father is through His Son -- washed in His blood and having our minds cleansed through His Word. The renewing of our minds, for every thought that tries to rise up against the knowledge of Gods word, shall be held captive unto the obedience of Jesus Christ.

We obtain revelation knowledge through His Spirit the mysteries hidden in his word, and understanding through Theology.

To me to preach that God forgives our future sins in Christ is unbiblical. There is no single verse to support it. I have read some posts here were some scriptural references were put to support this, but they are clearly not saying what they intended to say. To me it is like extending a promise that is not given in scripture by using our intelligence. It is like adding to God's word which is equally a dangerous sin as removing something.

Why do I believe we should not preach this? It is because the Bible does not talk about it. It is true that when Jesus died on the cross all my sins were put on him. They were my future sins at that time, because I was not even born when he died. So it is true that Jesus died for our future sins as well. But it will be applicable only when we repent or turn away completely from it after every act of known sin. Whether this repentance will happen automatically by his grace or needs human desire for Godly life, repentance is needed for Forgiveness. There is no forgiveness without repentance, no matter which stage of Christian walk I am in.

Forgiveness of sins is like healing a snake bite, where sin is snake. People who boast that our future sins are also forgiven and preach it are those who consider God only as a doctor who can heal snake bite. But people who preach overcoming life and true grace are those who consider God as someone more than a doctor who can give you power to have dominion over the snake so that it can never bite you. Those who experienced such power will no longer be willing to reduce God's majesty by saying he has forgiven your future sins already. They will boast on his power to give us dominion over sin.

Peter saith unto him, Thou shalt never wash my feet. Jesus answered him, If I wash thee not, thou hast no part with me.  Simon Peter saith unto him, Lord, not my feet only, but also my hands and my head.  Jesus saith to him, He that is washed needeth not save to wash his feet, but is clean every whit: and ye are clean,

Do you see what he's saying?

any doctrine that does not lead you to put to death the deeds of the flesh does not glorify Christ.

I agree with you Sree. Furthermore, what would be the motivation of an individual to 1) preach the forgiveness of all future sins and 2) to want to be assured that all future sins are forgiven?

This is, as far as I have experienced, the most common train of thought brought forth by those who do not believe that the forgiveness extended to us at salvation also extends to the future. But this train of thought would only apply, in my opinion, to a person who was trying to obtain a fire escape and live by the rules so to speak just enough in order to avoid hell. But that very train of thought ignores spiritual regeneration and the change of lifestyle that is a result of that regeneration. It is as if salvation is simply a change of lifestyle, and that a fear of penalty is the only thing that would serve to keep a person on the straight and narrow. But that is the very bondage that Christ set us free from.

Heb 2:14-15 Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil; And deliver them who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage.

The law was carnal in that it was composed of external ordinances (see Colossians) that were imposed with the threat of penalty, including physical death, for infractions against the law. It was designed to keep the soul and body (mind, will, emotions, and physical members) in check until the time of reformation.

Heb 9:9 Which was a figure for the time then present, in which were offered both gifts and sacrifices, that could not make him that did the service perfect, as pertaining to the conscience;
Heb 9:10 Which stood only in meats and drinks, and divers washings, and carnal ordinances, imposed on them until the time of reformation.

You see, the new covenant is not about a new and better way to avoid individual acts of sin, and a new way to atone for those sins each time they are committed. It is not the law with improvements. It is about regeneration of the spirit. It is about the enmity between us and God being dealt with in the person of Jesus Christ. It is not that God simply forgave sins that are past through Christ and that future failures must be individually confessed, repented of, and atonement procured. Sin itself has been dealt with. My spirit has been regenerated. I have been perfected forever.

Heb 10:14-18 For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified. Whereof the Holy Ghost also is a witness to us: for after that he had said before,
This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them; And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more. Now where remission of these is, there is no more offering for sin.

Payment has been made for my sins...all of them. Where that payment has been made, no more offering is necessary. My spirit is now perfected forever. I have been made righteous, just as righteous as Jesus is righteous. This is exactly what Paul tells us in his letter to the Corinthians

2Co 5:17-21 Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new. And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation; To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation. Now then we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God did beseech you by us: we pray you in Christ's stead, be ye reconciled to God. For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.

I do not refrain from sin because I fear penalty. I refrain from sin because I am no longer a sinner. This is why we must learn to walk in the spirit and not in the flesh. My flesh still desires sinful things at times. My mind still desires sinful things at times. But I am crucified with Christ. I put to death the lusts of the mind and the flesh. I mortify my members which are on earth and find my life and my motivation through walking in the Spirit.

This is why it should grieve a believer when he or she sins. I really believe that no man who sins and then says, "It really does not matter if I sin. I am forgiven. I can do what I want with my flesh.", has been born again, or understands what is means to be born again. In fact, I believe it was the Nicolaitans who believed that they could be spiritually right with God and then pursue the lusts of the flesh with impunity. Their heresy was firmly denounced.

Sin is deadly. If we persist, it hardens our heart toward God. We become spiritually insensitive. We cease to be able to hear God's voice. We deaden ourselves. And the end result can be that, because we have been polluting our conscience, we come to a place of rejecting God and denouncing our own salvation. If we are to be saved in the end, we must hold fast our confidence. We must endure to the end. Allowing Satan a foothold in our lives through continuing in sin is deadly. We do need to live a repentant lifestyle, one in which we continually turn away from any known or revealed sin in our lives. But we need to understand that it is not any individual action of sin that results in loss of salvation.

I think it would be very fruitful to carefully study the book of Hebrews, especially chapter 10, when considering this topic.

Peter saith unto him, Thou shalt never wash my feet. Jesus answered him, If I wash thee not, thou hast no part with me.  Simon Peter saith unto him, Lord, not my feet only, but also my hands and my head.  Jesus saith to him, He that is washed needeth not save to wash his feet, but is clean every whit: and ye are clean,

Do you see what he's saying?

Very good post twayne,

But that very train of thought ignores spiritual regeneration and the change of lifestyle that is a result of that regeneration

How true is that, its the belief that a believer is a still in first Adam and not in second Adam. That Jesus is still on the cross and not seated in heaven.

Once again, good post!!

I find so many mistakes and unbiblical assumptions in your post. I did not care to comment on them before but now I find the need because I see people who lack discernment here being deceived by your post.

He sent Jesus to pay the penalty demanded by the law and reconcile us. He put the law to death on the cross and by His sacrifice we now have peace with God.

Jesus paid the penalty for my sins. He did not come to abolish the law. Jesus himself said that not even a single stoke of law will be destroyed.

Matt 5-17:-Do not think that I came to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I did not come to abolish but to fulfill. For truly I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest letter or stroke shall pass from the Law until all is accomplished.

As Jesus said, the law will be fulfilled in us who believe him. The requirements of the law are fulfilled in me by not just paying the penalty, but also to empower me to keep a standard that is why higher than law, this is the spirit filled standard. God never put law to death. Paul says in Romans 7:4 that -
Therefore, my brethren, you also were made to die to the Law through the body of Christ, so that you might be joined to another, to Him who was raised from the dead, in order that we might bear fruit for God.

Romans 7 follows after Romans 6 in which Paul has already described a born again man. So the death in Romans 7 is a death of the man who after being born again united to law instead of spirit. Even in this case God did not kill law but he made the man die to separate him from law and unite him with Spirit.

But that very train of thought ignores spiritual regeneration and the change of lifestyle that is a result of that regeneration. It is as if salvation is simply a change of lifestyle, and that a fear of penalty is the only thing that would serve to keep a person on the straight and narrow. But that is the very bondage that Christ set us free from.

No one ignores regenerated life. When a person repents and accepts Jesus as his savior, he is born again. This means the old man who lived freely sinning is now dead and a new man has been born who wants to please God. But this new man is not strong enough to please God and keep from sinning. He has to seek the infilling of spirit each and everyday to renew his strength. Only then he will be able to live the life that he now wants to live. We are not preaching regenerated life as a change in life style, it is a change in desire and passion. But by this change in desire and passion it self is not good enough to live a Godly life. Thank fully there is much more to salvation than regeneration.

You see, the new covenant is not about a new and better way to avoid individual acts of sin, and a new way to atone for those sins each time they are committed. It is not the law with improvements. It is about regeneration of the spirit. It is about the enmity between us and God being dealt with in the person of Jesus Christ. It is not that God simply forgave sins that are past through Christ and that future failures must be individually confessed, repented of, and atonement procured. Sin itself has been dealt with. My spirit has been regenerated. I have been perfected forever.

There is a spirit filled life that is explained in Romans Chapter 8, in which a Christian has power to say no to sin. Even here to such a Christian Paul writes that,
Romans 8-12:-So then, brethren, we are under obligation, not to the flesh, to live according to the flesh”” for if you are living according to the flesh, you will DIE; but if by the Spirit you are putting to death the deeds of the body, you will live.

So there is a spiritual death possible if a Christian who is born again and spirit filled starts to live by Flesh. If this will not happen then why is Paul warning us? It can happen but if the believer takes the power of Holy Spirit to overcome sin then he will have power to live dead to flesh every day. He will take up the cross and deny his flesh everyday. This is the victorious life we have in Jesus.

Regarding the need for daily repentance in a Christians life, if you read Revelation then you will know how many times Jesus asks Churches to repent. If no need to repent after we are born again then why is Jesus warning the Church to repent?

I do not believe that people come here to learn. No one will change their doctrines in this forum no matter how unscriptural it is. At least it will be good if they stop spreading these lies.

Peter saith unto him, Thou shalt never wash my feet. Jesus answered him, If I wash thee not, thou hast no part with me. Simon Peter saith unto him, Lord, not my feet only, but also my hands and my head. Jesus saith to him, He that is washed needeth not save to wash his feet, but is clean every whit: and ye are clean,

Do you see what he's saying?

A believer who has repented, confessed openly Jesus as his savior and taken water baptism can be compared here to a person who has taken bath. He is now clean, he does not need to take the baptism again for any reason. But Jesus also said 'not all of you are clean'. Though Judas was once selected by Jesus himself as a disciple, he was now not clean because he let evil come into his heart. So Jesus did not consider him as clean.

But Jesus asks the disciples to wash their feet. Our feet gets dirty whenever we take a walk. Jesus here is referring to our Christian walk in which either consciously or unconsciously we can sin by entertaining our flesh. Hence it is necessary for us to confess our sins daily as part of our prayer to God and ask for forgiveness, even if we have no conscious sins in our heart.
Matt 6-12:-12 ‘And forgive us our debts, as we also have forgiven our debtors.'

This should be part of our payer as commanded by Jesus, this will be compared to feet washing. If we keep washing our feet regularly, we will also be clean like those 11 apostles. Else we can become unclean as well like Judas.

The law is still alive today, but we have died in Christ and through His death, we have been set free from the law to serve a higher law. The law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus. We are a new creation, new creatures in Christ. Something that never existed on planet earth prior to Christ....the New Man.

Yes I agree. I love the way you mention 'higher law'. It is very true that life by Spirit is a standard way higher than law. It is like a man who completes his PHD has way higher knowledge than a 12th grader.

The problem is many consider Chiristian life by grace as living by 'NO LAW' or lawless. But Jesus said unless our Righteousness surpasses that of Pharisees and Scribes who are experts of law we will never enter the kingdom of God (Matt 5-20). Which means a disciple standard should be way higher than a legalist can achieve.

The Church that I started out in taught that inorder to be saved, one must confess his sins, repent from his sins and than trusts in the work of Christ as redemption for his sin, and if he went back into sin he lost his salvation.

This sounds good, but I tried to enter in through this gate countless times and it did not work for me, nor did it seem to work for many others that I observed.

The repentance of sin was understood as my part of the salvation process, It was and often preached that God does not look on sin nor those whom have sin, so it was understood that inorder to approuch God we must first repent of our sin's and than bring that repentant state to God in which we are now clean enough that God will except us.

As a sincere bible believing 14-26 year old it sounded correct, but I can testify personally that after more than a decade of countless very sincere tearful responses to the alter call for salvation and rededications. It did not work.

We would often set around as the youth and question how much sin it took to loose ones salvation.
It was often asked : 'What if a Christian said a cuss word, and before he had time to confess and repent, if he died, would he go to heaven or hell? what If he drank one beer and said one cuss word and than died before he confessed and repented of his sin?' Such questions where never adequately answered, at the same time ironically we also where taught we had a sinful nature and that Romans 7 was the normal Christian life.
It was a sea of confusion. and it did not work. It did not bring true peace nor did it have the power to give me the strength to stop me from sinning....

hopefully to be continued..

previously I wrote : RE: /// The repentance of sin was understood as my part of the salvation process,///

This is where I now believe the error crept in.

In essence every time I responded to the alter call ,which was countless times in the course of more than a decade, I was ignorantly bringing my cleaned up self to be excepted.
but the Bible tells us that Jesus came into the world to save sinners.

The alter call was an emotional experience, I was sincere every time I responded, I always was of the mind set that : "This time I was going to get victory over my sin and stop sinning"
The will was present with me; but how to perform that which was good I did not know.

Through will power and self effort I did overcome certain sins but there where some that even though I confessed and repented the best I knew how, my body had became so adjusted to them that by abstaing from them for more than just a few days I would become very sick, and within 2 weeks I was back to them, I hated those things which I did, and I did those things which I hated.

hopefully to be continued..

Sounds like legalism so far Proudpapa, I've certainly been there and still struggle with it but am certainly coming into trusting more in Jesus death and resurrection and trying to grasp and walk in that I'm dead and my life is now hidden with Christ in God.
It really is good news!
I look forward to hearing more from you.

This is going to be rough brothers but I’m going to call you out on this, MEN, who promote this corrupt teaching... because if I were a betting person, I’d say it was a "male” who came up with this corrupt teaching trying to appease their guilt from Matt 5.27-29:

Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not commit adultery: But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart. And if thy right eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell.

Did Jesus say, "no worries brother, I understand completely your troubles and trials of this human lust thing and I’m going to alleviate your conscience so you never have to say your sorry again...” No, he did not.

"When we get saved, God forgives all our sins, past, present and future." That statement has always rung a sour note in my ears, because it arises from the modern notion that salvation is just a legal transaction: Jesus paid the bill for your sins, making it legal for the Father to forgive you. Now all you have to do is "get saved." How do we "get saved?" By reciting the sinner's prayer.

In this way, evangelicals have revived the ancient error that salvation is not "regeneration" but "justification."

MichaelLaio pointed out, rightly, that someone who has been regenerated will not wish to continue in sin anyway. But our modern gospel is not producing those kinds of converts, so we should refrain from this hyper-grace phraseology that the carnal mind can latch onto as a rationalization for continuing in sin.

At any rate, I wouldn't be too happy if I was doing a prison ministry and someone introduced this doctrine to the people I was trying to reach.

This doctrine is related to the osas camp.

If you don't believe in osas then you will never believe that all sins have been forgiven.

I'm in the osas camp so hence my position from the original post.

Just a few comments.

1) I remember being at a leaders training time and the one speaker said these lines which I never forgot. 'Never beat the sheep because of a few goats'.

What am I saying, don't because there is abuse about grace add extra conditions to a contract that has everything to do with Jesus Christ and has nothing to do with us except our belief.

Its like we have to put conditions on something that is most certainly free, because you have those that are abusing it.

No friends, God is not mocked, God opposes proud people on both sides of the fence but gives grace to the humble.

A humble person will look to Christ every moment of everyday, and will be given grace, by God himself, thats an awesome thought.

A proud person will think about themselves and will not look at Christ Jesus at all. Just ask yourself the following questions should be a good indicator:

When you read that 'without holiness no one will see the lord', who are you thinking about, if its yourself you are proud.

When you hear that because of grace you can sin, who are you thinking about, if its yourself you are proud.

There is no distinction here, both are deluded and have missed the point of the gospel!

2) The issue for me is not about hyper grace being an excuse for anything. Its an issue of the self righteousness tendencies resident in everyones heart. Its what God is dealing with us all about everyday of our lives.

Because some teachers/preachers having made grace a licence to sin do I disregard it, no I don't and neither did Paul. But Jude is quite clear what there end is.

Will there be goats in the last day who proclaim Christ but don't know him, absolutely. Will Jesus sift them, Yes!!

Will there be those who come to the wedding super without a wedding invitation, absolutely. Will they be exposed, Yes!!

3) From my perspective if you don't believe your future sins are forgiven you don't have a clear concept of sin.

The wages of sin is death!! Its quite clear

Some posters here have drawn a distinction between willful and and unwilful sins, God doesn't. Sin is sin..

The arrogance in our hearts is mind blowing, but not so mind blowing that that was/is me!!!! Thats us all!!!

Its like we tell God, we got this, our sin barometer is now properly calibrated to the atmosphere of heaven. All of a sudden we can properly gauge which sin is omission and which is commission. We have no more ability to keep track of our sins than we have to measure the distance between the east and the west!!!

No friends, if our future sins weren't forgiven we would be lost. I have said this before, and at the risk of doing what has been frowned upon is come with an agenda.

In Christ is all God the Father sees, I don't pop in and out of Christ because of sin. But if I don't believe that my future sins are forgiven that should happen and that is what I would believe, because sin and God cannot be in the same building. But, I am in Christ!!!!

You will live under a constant cloud of torment and anguish because we all fail everyday. The accuser of the brethren will pick you to pieces, willfully added and abetted by our religious conscience. It creates people who walk around with a fearful expectation that God will judge them for their sin. Friends, the punishment that we deserved was meted out on Jesus and by believing in him the full benefits of his work is given to me, thats grace.

Friends, God loves us and wants us to enjoy his goodness and share that with other people.

Blessings,

Sree:

As with all scripture, we need to look at what is said in context. Matthew 5:17-20

Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil. For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled. Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven. For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.

The term destroy in verse 17 means to throw down or to destroy, much as we might throw down or destroy a building or a government. The term fulfill means to bring to an end, to accomplish, or to complete. Jesus did not come to overthrow the law, but rather to bring it to its end or to its completion. This is the reason He then begins to instruct the people that their righteousness must exceed that of even the scribes and pharisees (an impossible task in the eyes of these folks) if they are to ever have even a chance of inheriting the kingdom of heaven. Remember he concludes this chapter by saying that the only way to enter the kingdom of heaven by works is to be perfect even as God is perfect. Look at Rom 10:1-4 as it speaks to this very fact.

Brethren, my heart's desire and prayer to God for Israel is, that they might be saved. For I bear them record that they have a zeal of God, but not according to knowledge. For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God. For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.

Christ completed the law. The law required either perfection (impossible) or death (the penalty). Christ paid the penalty described by the law. He completed the law and brought it to an end as the means to obtain righteousness. Righteousness under the law was really just self righteousness anyway as the ordinances were carnal and requisite upon my own self effort in order to keep them.

That being said, Paul says in Eph 2:13-16 But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ. For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us; Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;
And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby:

Here Paul actually uses the word abolish in respect to the law. The term abolish here means to make void or render useless. In other words, the enmity that existed between God and me because of the holy law of a holy God that prescribed judgement for my sin has been rendered null and void. The punishment of the law no longer has any effect upon me. I am now at peace with God, made righteous by the blood of His precious Son.

Hebrews 8 is a powerful synopsis of what the writer of that book has been trying to say in the first seven chapters. He says that the old covenant was not faultless, otherwise there would have been no need for a new covenant. He sums up by saying that the old covenant has been superseded by the new and is now ready to vanish away.

Hebrews 10:9 Then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second.

Jesus took away the law, the first covenant, so that He might establish the second.

I hope you understand what I am trying to say. There is a HUGE difference between the OT law, the old covenant, having been put aside for the purpose of ushering in a new and living way (Heb. 10:20) and the the idea of living in lawlessness. Jeremiah prophesied in 31:33 that the day would come when God's law would not be written on a tablet of stone or upon parchment, but would rather be written on our hearts. This prophesy is quoted in chapters 8 and 10 of Hebrews.

When a person is born again, regenerated in spirit (John 3), that person will now be guided and led, not be external, carnal ordinances with fear of death, but rather with internal, spiritual law that has as its motivation an active, vibrant relationship with a living God. I seek to live a life without sin, not because I might go to Hell, but rather because my Savior loved me and gave His life for me and has transformed me by the power of His Holy Spirit.

The OT law kept reign over a lawless man by prescribing a punishment so great that the man feared the punishment more than he desired the sin. The new covenant relationship with God through Christ writes a law on our heart that we submit to because we are born again and love our Lord.

I think sometimes we fear this a little bit. We worry that without some standard imposed from the outside, a person will get the wrong idea and think that grace is a license to sin. But that fear belies a basic lack of trust that the Holy Spirit can do His work quite well; better, in fact, than we ever could.

When a person is born again, regenerated in spirit (John 3), that person will now be guided and led, not be external, carnal ordinances with fear of death, but rather with internal, spiritual law that has as its motivation an active, vibrant relationship with a living God. I seek to live a life without sin, not because I might go to Hell, but rather because my Savior loved me and gave His life for me and has transformed me by the power of His Holy Spirit.

I only see you quoting again and again on Regeneration or being Born again. As I said in my earlier post, the problem with your doctrine or the doctrine of OSAS is they never look beyond regeneration. I too agree on Regeneration and the law of Spirit that is written in our heart. This law is way higher standard than the law of OT. If a man's life is a failure by OT standard then he is definitely failure by NT standard as well. Whether a person lives by laws written in tablet or in human heart as per NC, he still sins because law still exist. When a born again believer sins against the voice of the spirit he has to set it right by repenting.

1 John 1-8:- If we say that we have no sin, we are deceiving ourselves and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, He is faithful and righteous to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar and His word is not in us.

The word repentance is used so many times in New Covenant with reference to Church which is the body of Christ comprising only of believers. One cannot turn blind to these scriptures and say that they are lie or false warning.

I think sometimes we fear this a little bit. We worry that without some standard imposed from the outside, a person will get the wrong idea and think that grace is a license to sin. But that fear belies a basic lack of trust that the Holy Spirit can do His work quite well; better, in fact, than we ever could.

You have to consider that Apostle Paul or even Jesus himself in Revelation had this fear and hence had to ask Churches to repent. Probably they did not have enough trust in Holy Spirit and enough knowledge in scripture as modern day Christians do!!!

Holy Spirit is a gentle Spirit and unlike Evil Spirit can never force a man to do something against his will. If a born again man decides to live by flesh by setting his mind on the flesh (which is very much possible as per Romans 8) then the Spirit will not force him to change his mind. But if the born again man is spirit filled and lives by setting his mind on the needs of the Holy Spirit then he will be empowered to do the will of God. It is a choice that man has to make everyday. He has to take up his cross and deny his flesh everyday as Jesus said. That is why we need to encourage each and every believer as long as today, to take up their cross.

As someone pointed out, this discussion is leading towards OSAS vs complete Bible. People who act asleep cannot be woken up, similarly people who willfully turn blind to major part of scriptures to hold a deceived doctrine also cannot be enlightened in one post or forum. I will refrain from posting on this topic.

The alter call was an emotional experience, I was sincere every time I responded, I always was of the mind set that : "This time I was going to get victory over my sin and stop sinning"
The will was present with me; but how to perform that which was good I did not know.

I remember once responding to Alter Call during my early days of conversion. But it was not at all beneficial. I also remember hearing Paul Washer's sermon for a youth camp that made him popular, it put me in tears but again did not benefit me.

To me most Alter calls are done to just convict people of their sins and bring them forward. I once heard a very good convicting message preached in a public gathering organized by some Church. At the end of mentioning all the common sins in believers and how it grieves God, the speaker called those who are touched to come forward. Many came forward, they individually prayed for them and took their names and welcomed them to Church. It was as if the speaker was hired by Church to recruit members.

To me such instance is like a doctor who cuts open a patient and then shows him that he has a cancer and then asks him leave. He should also tell him what the treatment is. If the patient was not able to fight cancer before he knew it exists, he will certainly not be able to fight himself even after he knows the cancer exists. Same way a person who comes to Alter call if he cannot fight sin and live as an overcomer before he gets convicted, he certainly cannot do it after he gets convicted as well. Just by sin conviction alone a person cannot have an overcoming life. He needs the power of Holy Spirit. He needs the infilling of the Holy Spirit. The problem with these altercall is they do not tell the solution. They are only interested in knowing how many are willing to come forward, instead of helping them. A complete sermon of Grace will start with sin conviction and will end with hope that comes by trusting in Holy Spirit.

You've done good examining the problem Sree, and you came to the right conclusions.

Its all based on a partial view of OSAS, not the full Bible. What results in an understanding of grace as living by 'NO LAW' or actually lawless. That is always proof that something is wrong and the true light of understanding is missing. Hidden inside a spirit that is not based on the clear instructions (and clear warnings) of Jesus and all of the apostles. Every warning that it is possible to fall away gets ignored ("because if true it would be awful and many would be lost") face the reality - Many ARE lost. The Bible clearly teaches that MANY will be falling away, will get rejected by Jesus and even spit out.

That's the greatest fear that makes OSAS sound true in the mind of the fearful, that got stuck in a very early mindset of viewing these things and built their understanding of the gospel on such a weak foundation. If someone would exchange it for the TRUE fear of God they would find grace in repentance and stop teaching these doctrines of devils.

A-servant, Sree,

the irony in this discussion is I feel the same way about doctrines that keep Gods people under a yoke of slavery.

From my side of the 'fence' it reveals a faulty belief system about and in the real nature of God and his redemptive plan.

But anyway, like I said first up, this is not going to get resolved before Jesus comes back, much grace to you,

Sree found the weakness in the whole "lawless grace" false doctrine when he said:

"The problem is many consider the Christian life by grace as living by 'NO LAW' or lawless."

And it's always hidden in clever dogmas, that once you ask to explain and define, deflate to nothing because there is nothing solid just phrases without meaning. We should always ask what is meant by these phrases. Just because someone says "the law of Christ" or "walking in the Spirit" does not mean they have any clear biblical understanding what these things mean. These words do have a real meaning and real content, it's not talking about a spirit without content or law. Higher law does not mean "no law". Jesus could help our understanding, but he is now divided into a presumed OT-Jesus talking to "Jews" and NT-Jesus, that "never really talked to us" because His real teaching started after his resurrection. And if someone points out his exact words after his resurrection you will still reject them, because you already have a different opinion. That is a bad situation, Jesus basically can teach you nothing, you prefer another Jesus.

One reason for that is as earlier mentioned by just-in, Rom 8:2, It is talking about the law of sin and death, what is however not about God's law. Both are not identical, one states that if we sin we shall die, the other are instructions in righteousness, as expressed in the commandments. Which when rightly understood keep us from slipping from our path WHILE walking in the Spirit. Godly instructions for a 'lazy mind' or an 'inventive mind' that is weak enough to slip without guidance. The Holy Spirit will remind us about that, a religious spirit will not. You cannot forget to repent of your sins, except you have a religious spirit, then you're the one in charge of all of that.

Psalms 37:31  The law of his God is in his heart; none of his steps shall slide.

That's new covenant reality already ahead of time

Psalms 40:8  I delight to do thy will, O my God: yea, thy law is within my heart.

Same here, he does not imply that the "the law of sin and death" is within his heart, he loves to do God's will as in 'His instructions in righteousness', because that is what people do that walk in the Spirit. That is the reason for the whole creation of humanity. A people that are a new creation in whom the Spirit of God lives. That of course not violates God's law, God does not oppose himself.

Since people in the old covenant cannot understand that reality, they will fight it till the cows come home, trying to understand the new covenant with their mind, not with their heart. Unless of course the speech of their mouth directly relates to what's written on their heart, i.e. missing of God's law is a sign for being in the old covenant, not born-again yet. That's where the reasoning comes from, the religious spirit doesn't understand that reality, and will never evolve into The Holy Spirit that actually loves His own instructions of our Father that is in heaven because it helps us believers to not slip into deceptions of the lawless one.

The lawless spirit does not accept such instructions and guidance because it is believed to be bondage and restricts personal freedom. He does not accept the freedom to do what is good either. It's absurd reasoning if you truly love Jesus. The spirit behind it is a spirit of lawlessness and rebellion. It's self-sufficient, not looking for or accepting a higher authority, everything in that regard is just lip-service. The lawless ones will not accept God's will or Spirit to rule over them or guide them. A spirit of 'undefinable content' is preferred, because there is enough room to do whatever suits YOUR will. Of course your steps will slide over time, we are not our own little gods that are establishing our own kingdoms.

Second opinion from a different view as found on file:

quote "Now everybody today seems to think that law of sin and death that we have been set free from, is the 10 Commandments. Is the 10 commandments the law of sin and death? NO! Absolutely not!  The 10 commandments is NOT the law of sin and death. What is the law of sin and death? The law of sin and death is found in Romans chapter 6 verse 23 ... For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord. The wages of sin is death. That is the law of sin and death. The soul that sinneth it shall die. (Study Ezekiel 18) The soul that sinneth, it shall die. That is the law of sin and death.  Now, we are going to get set free from that law of sin and death, IF we stop walking after the flesh and start walking after the Spirit. Rom 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are IN Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit."

Faith is to know what God said, and to walk in it. To know what God said, and not walk in it, is rebellion. You see how faith is really obedience. 

Quote: "Rom 8:9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.  But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if ... IF...stop sign....what is the condition, there is a qualification or stipulation before I can presume this .... IF means something important. UNLESS you meet the condition you better NOT assume, believe, or presume you may have it without meeting the condition. You are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, IF, IF you meet the condition. What is the condition? IF so be that the Spirit of God dwell IN you. That is the only way. You have the Spirit of God or you have a deceiving spirit. If you believe once saved always saved you have a deceiving spirit. You can be delivered, but, first you have to be able to HEAR that you have picked up a deceiving religious spirit. Most today will not have ears to hear the Spirit of Truth. The deceiving spirit does not empower you to keep the commandments, the deceiving spirit will give you excuses and rationalizations for violating the commandments. The Holy Spirit causes you to keep and love the Royal Law, and the deceiving spirit causes you to excuse and rationalize your disregard for the Royal Law. The deceiving spirit will make you think you are very spiritual when you are carnal."

Compare and test against 1 John and 2 John. Gnostics of old had the same problem as religious people today, and didn't know who is correct on these issues. John told them how to discern truth and to overcome their head knowledge.

Rom 8:14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.  --- If we think we are a son of God and do not love, keep and fulfill His commandments, we are deceived and NOT a son of God. We know we are a son of God when that Spirit of Holiness is causing us, and helping us, and empowering us to stop sinning. Then we are really getting transformed, not just positionally, but also practically. Or "in real life".

I had strong feelings of rebuke the other night as to becareful not present myself as more spirtual than I trully am and also not to be giving my testimony with underlining maliceful punches towards other posters that I have read and may disagree with.

I still have many areas to grow in, I still have struggles, I still find myself falling back under the law, I do not have it all figured out, but I hope my testimony can be a help to some.

previously I wrote : RE: /// The alter call was an emotional experience, I was sincere every time I responded, I always was of the mind set that : "This time I was going to get victory over my sin and stop sinning"
The will was present with me; but how to perform that which was good I did not know.///

When I would step out into the isle, I could invision the spirtual breakthrough that ought to be fixing to take place, but when I would get to the alter, I could not concentrate, some scriptures would be read to me and we would pray, I would go back to my seat with somewhat a peace but not the peace which passeth all understanding.

The peace was instead a peace that I did what I needed to do.

But the folly of this was revealed to me by the judgments that my baptist fellowship at the time was placing on the COC that taught that water baptism was essential for salvation.
We where taught to judge them as false converts because they where supposedly trusting in there works of water baptism instead of on Jesus. but the hypocrisy that I seen in all of this was it appeared to me that we seemed to be trusting in our alter call , decisionism , our own fleshly efforts of stop sinning and prayers instead of on Jesus.

At the time I did not know of anyone else whom had made this observation.
now I find many others here on si whom have made simmilar observations.

I want to be clear that I am not implying that no one is saved after responding to an alter call, I am sure that many are, I am just giving my testimony and the obstacles that seemed to prevent a breakthrough for me.

hopefully to be continued..