BSBKJVWEBYLTASVBBEWMBT4TDBY|HymnsMusicDonate
Menu
Home › Forums › Building bridges to darkness???????
General

Building bridges to darkness???????

S
sermonindex

2 Cor.6:14-16
Do not be bound together with unbelievers, for what partnership have righteousness and lawlessness, or what fellowship has light with darkness? Or what harmony has Christ with Belial or what has a believer in common with an unbeliever? Or what agreement has the temple of God with idols?

These verses came to mind as I reflected upon Dr.Ravi Zacharias speaking to Mormons at Brigham Young University and in the Mormon Tabernachle in the last few days. I believe this was his second visit. The first visit he spoke in 2004 having recieved a standing ovation from the Mormons. But is something wrong with this picture???????

If this brother was preaching the cross of Christ to those steeped in the demonic darkness of Mormonism then one of two things would have happened. A riot or a revival of Christ centered repentence. But I hardly doubt a standing ovation would be in order. One does not see Paul recieving standing ovations. With Paul preaching the cross of Christ it was a riot or a revival. Sometimes followed by jail.

There is no doubt that Dr. Ravi Zacharias is s brilliant apologist holding I believe 3 doctorates. He has written numerous books and spoken in many venues defending the gospel of Christ. Yet Dr. Zacharias folows Richard Lamb and Albert Moehler from the SBC and George Wood from the Assemblies of God in reaching out to Mormons. Or accepting Mormon invites to go Utah and meet with them. (Hmm wonder if they would invite Paul Washer to preach?)

Tbese meetings of evangelicals and Mormons seem to suggest that there is common ground for agreement and that doctrinal differences are minimized. Then one cries out where is this sword Jesus promised to bring. The uniqueness of salvation in Jesus alone is lost. The cross has no offense.

For two thousand tears of church history followers of Jesus Christ have maintained that He is the Son of God and He is the only way to the Father.

Yet this distinctiveness is being lost as we see evangelicals ans Mormons dialoging and singing cumbyah. Then one wonders why believers suffer for Christ in N. Korea and Eritrea. One wonders why over 100,000 believers a year are martyred for faith in the belief that Christ is the only way of salvation.

One does not read of Paul opening up dialogs with the Jewish extremist of his day. Or one does not read of Paul preaching in the temple if Artemis. But one does read of Paul preaching Christ crucified and faith Him alone to save. And for that he suffered and was martyred.

I do believe we should reach out with the gospel to those in demonic cults. And that should be done with the love of Christ. But to preach in their venues??? Well. That may be acceptable...provided.....that one is preaching the death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus Christ and He alone is the way to be saved. If course such a person nay not be alive the next day. But you know the gospel has been preached. But to build bridges if unity with a cult.......I think the above verses speak for them selves.

Posted by Blaine Scogin


K
KingJimmy

"Riot or revival" is a false dichotomy. It might have been preached by Leonard Ravenhill, but it's not exactly Scriptural.

A real look at the book of Acts will show that while such often happened, there were plenty of instances of Paul and the apostles being given the opportunity to speak to non-believers who wanted them to come back and speak again.

Though I have almost zero interaction with Mormons these days, I'm personally encouraged by Dr. Ravi Zacharias in his witness to them. His attitude shows that you can gently witness to people in a loving manner and that God will open some wonderful opportunities up for you to do so. My guess would be he is seeing some fruit from this.

Standing on their platform in one of their churches is not a compromise. It is an opportunity. I think Blaine, you would prefer if Dr. Ravi Zacharias were standing out in the parking lot and preaching to them from the back of a pick-up truck with a loud horn. You would applaud him then. But being a platformed speaker... well, that's compromise, right?

Hmmm..

*edited*

M
MrBillPro

2 Cor.6:14-16
Do not be bound together with unbelievers, for what partnership have righteousness and lawlessness, or what fellowship has light with darkness?

Lets not confuse the word "bound". Speaking with Mormons, Jehovah's Witnesses, or even a non believer is not being bound to that person. If the world spent more time searching themselves and not others, they might see they are not good enough to judge a rock, as we are all nothing but filth rags.

S
Sidewalk

As you look back on the circumstances that brought you to Christ, you will probably notice that while you read and believed The Word, you were also greatly influenced by people you either met or learned from.

For me, there were people who "had something" that I came to desire also. Sometimes it was intangible, but the one thing I probably wanted most was that easy love for God and other people. Seeing and hearing people with that was mesmerizing to me, and I knew I wanted it.

Perhaps these meetings will result in some clapping, some grinding their teeth, but some in there responding to the Holy Spirit. If it is just one it is worth it. One more rescued from darkness into the light and life of Christ.

Talking is usually better than shooting...

A
ArthurRosh

Brother Blaine thank you for bringing up this issue as it is something very close to my heart (my family is Eastern Orthdoox, a form of religion that when understood is more frightening than the darkest cults out there) I live and interact with this 24/7, 365, it is a very sensitive issue with much to be debated on proper ways to reach people within false religions something I am learning from the Lord everyday, this is a very good topic for discussion and I hope to add some more fuller comments later but for now I want to say that God's ways and the way He works are not something we am figure out and we must never put Him in any boxes. He works in many ways and it is all for His glory. Notice these two verses that give us some more information on how the apostles approached things:

For you have brought these men here who are neither sacrilegious nor blasphemers of our goddess.
Acts 19:37

Give no offense to Jews or to Greeks
1 Corinthians 10:32

S
sermonindex

Brethren let me say up front I am not advocating a Westboro Baptist approach to evangelizing the Mormons, Moslems or any other cult. But the message of Jesus Christ couched in His death on the cross for sinners is not designed to make one feel good. But to provoke one to a response. A response of repentence toward God and faith in Christ or a response of rejection of Christ. There is no middle ground. And granted this is done in love.

The gospel demands a response from the heart of a sinner. Not a standing ovation to the messenger. There is no middle ground with the cross.

My concern is leading big name evangelicals are making themselves known to the Mormons and leaving with this feel good all is well. Meanwhile leaving Mormon souls on the road to hell. The intent of these meetings seems more to bring about the apostate church of the end times then Mormon souls to Christ.

The idea of dialog with a cult is foolish. Building bridges with demonic cults by sitting around and looking for common ground leads nowhere but to hell. The best love one can give a cult member is to bring them to Jesus Christ and that done in a spirit of love and gentleness.

Jesus did not travel a middle ground when he said in John 14:6 I am the way and the truth and the life. He made it pretty direct when He said no one comes to the Father but through Me.

Peter was not seeker sensitive when be declared in Acts 4:12 when he said there is salvation in no one else. For he declared there is no other name given among men by which we must be saved. That is the name of Jesus Christ.

Some, perhaps even in this forum, will say this is narrow minded bigotry. But Jesus did say that the narrow way, I believe that is the cross will lead to life. And only a few are going to enter through that narrow door. But it is the door of life. But the easy broad road of dialog and compromise will lead to an eternal destruction of hell.

If we truly love those in the cults and I pray we do. The most loving message we can give them is the message of the cross of Christ. The only way to salvation.

Posted by Blaine Scogin

A
ArthurRosh

I am glad we are discussing this issue and I share your concerns. I want to add to your comments that the response the gospel demands from sinners may not be an instant response in every case and can sometimes take time to develop. Secondly it is not always the the offensive aspect of the cross that draws sinners, it can be the glories of Christ that draws sinners to repentance.

I saw a portion of Ravi's message at the Mormon Tabernacle and had many of the same questions that you are dealing with going through my mind as well. It would be good to get Ravi's own perspective on the issue as I believe he is a man of prayer who is close to the heart of the Lord Jesus and is careful to obey the Master's voice in his life and ministry.

K
KingJimmy

The word "cult" is a mostly useless prejorative that is devoid of any real meaning. Even if the Mormons are one, they are still a people who need to be reached. Brother Ravi had thousands of them as a captive and attentive audience. Getting to present to them the Gospel in such a forum is nothing short of amazing. It is an opportunity no preacher in his right mind should turn down.

B
brothagary

wow i just watched ravis sermon ,,,what a powerfull message strong exortations to get born again and the thrust of the message was to read the bible and be converted

i think it is wise to watch the full sermon before casting judgment

this man is a great evanglist and knows how to use the sword acording to the traditions and cultures he attacks

this message was nothing about ecumecial bonds but a christ centerd gosple message to convert the lost

verry verry dispointing to here some brothers here judge this man ,when he probably has done a hundred fold to bring the message of christ and the new birth and the athority of the bible to hundreds and hundereds of thousands , then what you or i have done


we sit around have a prayer meeting once a week and fellowship twice a week and sit on our behinds and babale here on sermon index about our pet doctrine and point the finger and eveyone that doest line up with our perceved spiritual life

wile ravi spends 200 pluss days every year preaching the gosple and exorting all differnt faiths

how dicusting are we to even utter a word against another of gods servents ,,utterly shamefull

ill just cover my mouth when it comes to men like ravi and ask god to forgive me for not being as zelious for the gospel as him ..

S
sermonindex

I am trying to access Ravi's messages spoken at BYU and Mormon Tabernachle. Evidently those messages have not been posted on his web site. If someone bas the link to the messages spoken on Jan. 17 at BYU and Jan. 18 at Mormon Tabernachle please post on this thread.

But my questions is was the gospel clearly proclaimed? Was man shown to be a sinner and his need for a Savior clearly demonstrated? Was the good news of God's redeeming grace and love set forth in the atoning work of Jesus Christ on the cross. Was there a clarion call to respond to God's gracious offer of salvation as set forth in His Son Jesus Christ? Was there a call to respond to the offer of salvation by faith in the stoning work of Christ?

If any of the questions cannot be answered in the affirmative then Mormons did not hear the gospel. As such there souls are in peril.

Jesus did not come to speak in intellectual or theological platitudes and play patyicaje with souls bound for eternal dextruction. He came to call sinners to repentence and into a saving relationship with Him.

The issue here is souls. Souls bound for a Christless eternity. Mormon souls are locked in demonic darkness and need to hear the liberating good news of the gospel of Jezus Christ.

Blaine Scogin

K
KingJimmy

I think Ravi has distinguished himself over the years and has a lot of credibility as being pretty rock solid when it comes to things of the faith, and preaching the gospel. Far be it from any of us to cynically question his motivies and whether or not he preached the gospel on the internet. He's something of an elder-statesman of the faith in the evangelical community. I would say he beyond reproach in this. We would do well to just watch and learn from his example.

R
rainydaygirl

I would say he beyond reproach in this. We would do well to just watch and learn from his example.

----

i think this is a dangerous attitude to have about any man. we are all prone to sin. not saying that he is or that he has done anything at all wrong but i also don't think it is wrong for bear to ask to hear the teaching or ask about the way things went. we are told to test the spirit, and even Paul had to correct Peter. again not saying that Ravi teaching to the Mormons was wrong but asking about it isn't wrong either.

rdg

U
used4him

Bearmaster,

I have not seen the sermon either, but I am with you as far as questioning the response. It's hard to believe that Mormons would applaud something preached that completely condradicts their beliefs. We just don't see that in the bible. Whenever I have witnessed to someone in a false religion, I usually get a strong response. Either they want to argue, or walk away. I would like to hear of some fruit from his meeting with them, in other words, saved souls.

K
KingJimmy


i think this is a dangerous attitude to have about any man. we are all prone to sin. not saying that he is or that he has done anything at all wrong but i also don't think it is wrong for bear to ask to hear the teaching or ask about the way things went. we are told to test the spirit, and even Paul had to correct Peter. again not saying that Ravi teaching to the Mormons was wrong but asking about it isn't wrong either.

I don't mind the questioning of what he preached either.


However, there is an arrogant, condescending, cynical attitude being taken on here in regard to a man who has done nothing but demonstrate that he is our brother in the Lord, and a faithful servant of Jesus Christ. We should give him the benefit of the doubt instead of playing this "I have a sneaky suspicion" game that some are fond of playing.

If it ever becomes evident that he is something other than such, then fine, have a field day with him. But until then, I think somebody who has a pretty long track record of faithfully preaching and defending the gospel under numerous settings should not be reproached, and treated as guilty until proven innocent.

K
KingJimmy


I have not seen the sermon either, but I am with you as far as questioning the response. It's hard to believe that Mormons would applaud something preached that completely condradicts their beliefs.

I once preached in a church, where a friend of a friend came to listen to me preach. The guy was was a Mormon missionary, who had just completed his 2 year mission, fresh out of the field. After the service I had the opportunity to meet him. He thanked me for the "deep and thought provoking message" I preached, and said he had enjoyed it. Yet my message was nothing of the sort that he should've found much in the way of anything to agree with.

In social settings, Mormons tend to be extremely friendly people. It does not surprise me that they stood up and applauded. That's what these well mannered people tend to do (they pride themselves on being very polite and neighborly). For all the times I've confronted Mormon missionaries on my door step, or while I was out on the streets, or preaching on the square of a university, I've always found that no matter how much you ruffle their feathers, they keep playing nice. They typically mindlessly agree to just about anything you say, and just try to play nice.

S
sermonindex

Brethren this past summer I travelled to Salt Lake City to meet s friend for a prayer assignnent. During my 9 days in SLC, my friend and I went to the Mormon Temple, the training school for Mormon missionaries, and other Mormon high places where we prayed for God to break the powers of darkness and the gospel to come in to the Salt Lake Valley.

While in Salt Lake, Provo, and Logan I saw young Mormon adults trapped in demonic darkness not knowing their sins had been paid for at the cross by Jesus Christ. All they needed to do was repent of their sins and turn to God. All they needed to do was to believe in Jesus. Yet the Mormons are trapped in a works righteousness system. They need to be set free from this yoke of slavery by the cross of Jesus Christ.

God opened up an opportunity for my friend and I to visit with Sandra Tanner. Sandra and her husband who is now with the Lord , came out of Mormonism in the 1960's. They were the first to expose the evils of Mormonism.

In visiting with Sndra she shared something that the LDS church does not want the public to know. A fair amount of their young people, particularly those who go on missions, have nervous breakdowns often leading to suicidal thoughts or suicide itself. This is brought on by the pressure to perform the legalistic duties Mormonism requires. These young adults are often under mental health treatment. Some do commit suicide.

Thus the great need for the gospel in all if its power to set one free from Mormonism to be preached.

Tragically this is not being done by those evangelicals who are visting Utah st Mormon invites. Richard Land, Albert Miehler, George Wood, and apparently Ravi Zacharias are more interested in common ground with the Mormons then in seeing them set free with the truth of Jesus Christ.

This is the context of why I opened up this thread. Some of you think I commit the unpardonable sin by calling into question whether Ravi Zacharias peached the cross of Jesus Christ to set Mormons free.

My friend, who was converted out if Mormonism, has been crying out to God to send laborers out to Utah to pray and preach the gospel to the Mormons. Mormons need to hear the truth of Jesus Christ who can set them free. Mormons do not need to hear apologetics and tbeology. They need to hear the truth of Jesus Christ to free them from their legalistic bondage.

Lord willing, I intend to return to Utah to pray and share Jezus this summer. Would anyone lone to join me. There us s great mission field out there.

Blaine Scogin

G
ginnyrose

Here is a link to those talks Ravi gave to the Mormans:

http://www.rzim.org/rzim-news/ravi-zacharias-at-byu-and-the-mormon-tabernacle/

I listened to the first one and it was good! If those people still believe that when one dies a man will have ???virgins...they sure did not get it from him! He preached a message we would all benefit from. The Q&A was good as well.

S
sermonindex

Ginny thanks for listing kinks.

S
sermonindex

I listened to Ravi's message to the BYU students. Excellent apologetic message entitled on What it Means to Be Human. It was non offensive. Good for academic discussion. The approach may be good in discussions with with non theists such as athiests or evolutionists.

What I felt lacking was the uniqueness of Jesus Christ. That uniqueness of His person and work that sets Him apart from the Jesus the Mormons believe in. Consequently there was no mention of sin or the power of the cross to cleans and deliver from sin.

Thus if I were a Mirmon sitting in that meeting I would come away feeling like Mormons and Evangelicals have very little separating them. There was no radical gospel proclamation to call Mormons to repentence.

My thoughts.

Blaine Scogin

S
sermonindex

I remember when Josh MacDowell came to LSU in the 1970's. Josh took an apologetic approach that wax centered more in the uniqueness of Jesus Christ. From history, theology, philosophy, and other disciplines Josh would lecture and debate the radicals of his day. The debates grew heated at times. But the intent of Josh was to set forth the truth of Jezus Christ. That Jesus Christ was who He claimed to be. Many were challenged to consider the claims of Jezus Christ. Many came to faith in Jesus Christ. The books that Josh wrote, Evidence that Demands a Verdict and More than a Carpenter stand as classics in setting forth the apologetic claims that Jesus Christ us indeed the Son of God.

It seems tbis is what BYU needs to be challenged with.

Blaine

A
ArthurRosh

Blaine: Your friends who came out of Mormonism, what is their testimony, how did they come to know Jesus?

A
ArthurRosh

Update by RZIM:

http://www.rzim.org/rzim-news/ravi-zacharias-at-the-mormon-tabernacle-gods-word-must-be-central-redemption-comes-before-righteousness/

H
Heydave

Well I had a look at the links to the 'speeches' Ravi gave in at BYU and Mormon Tabernacle. I have never had any exposure to Ravi's ministry (but know of his name), so am only judging by this by this event. The one I looked at was the Mormon Tabernacle.

He is obviously a gifted orator. It seems to me that had he been speaking to a 'Christian' audience it would be 'OK'. However in the context of being invited to this place I am concerned how he emphasised the fact that despite the 'theological differences' they should be looking at how both evangelicals and Mormons should be working toward bringing a moral perspective back to the USA! Also the guy who introduced and set up the event (an ex-Mormon) said he was looking to get evangelicals and Mormons into dialogue and seem to value his being brought up in the Mormon church.
there was no challenge to the error or Mormonism and no clear definition as to the true nature of Christ.

Yes Ravi did say that it is all in Jesus, BUT Mormons are quite happy to say they believe in God and Jesus, HOWEVER they have a different Jesus and a different god(s) and a different gospel. They are a cult in it's truest sense. They are happy to read the bible, BUT the book of Mormon takes priority over the bible. Just ask them if the book of Mormon contradicts the bible, which one would they believe. They will say the Mormon book every time!

Joseph Smith was a deceiver and Mormonism is a place of demons. Would the Apostle Paul or John speak humorous and warm words to such people? I can't begin to imagine it. Look how strongly they both spoke about false prophets, false apostles, judaizers and such like. They did not compromise and say 'lets see what we have in common'.

Mormonism is not another denomination it is a demonic cult designed of Satan to lead millions into hell.

S
sermonindex

Brother I have two friends that came out of Mormonism. It would be quite a post to detail their testimonies. But suffice to say they both were born again through reading the word, particularly the gospel of John. In doing so they encountered the living Christ, the true Son of God. As a result of that encounter they both left the cult of Mormonism.

Well, one friend a brother, had already left Mormonism. He was an athiest. But he got his hands on a New Testament. In reading it he was born again. The idea of returning to Mormonism was unthinkable to him.

The other friend, a dear sister in Christ, was seeking for peace in her soul. Mormonism was not providing the answers for her. She was even considering suicide. It was reading her New Testament she became born again reading John 14. This sister had to go before a Mormon bishop's court where she was denounced a heretic. But God was with her.

Both of my friends left Mormonism and walking a solid faith walk with Jesus. They see that the Jesus of the New Testament must be preached to those caught up in the darkness of Mormonism. This is to be done in love. But the idea of partnering with Mormons or building bridges with them is unthinkable. To them to do this would be like a Moslem who has been converted to Christ trying to find common ground with Jihadist.

For those who have been converted to Christ out of Mormonism or any other cult, there is no common ground. God does not give his light and glory to demonic cults.

Blaine

S
sermonindex

Brother I hope to listen to Ravi's other message today. But you have articulated more clearly what I was trying to convey in this thread.

I believe Ravi was introduced by Greg Johnson. Greg was converted to Christ out of Mormonism. But heads up a ministry called Standing Together. What this ministry seeks to do is create dialog with the Mormons and evangelicals. Thus finding "common ground" to stand together on.

The recent culture war has been a catymist to bring Mormons and evangelicals together. Believing that the issues of abortion and homosexuality are more paramount than doctrinal differences this has given rise to Mormons and evangelicals building bridges.

This ministry has been instrumental in bringing Richard Lamb and Albert Miehler from the Southern Baptist Convention to speak st BYU. Also Ravi Zacharias to speak a few tomes in recent hears.

It would appear to be commendable to see dialog between Mormons and Evangelicals. Perhaps even some eternal fruit born. But your obersations are right on. This is a cult. And there is no gospel challenge to encourage those in Mormonism to consider the claims of the true Christ of the New Testament. There is no challenge to repent and turn to faith in Christ.

Mormons will tell you they believe in God and Jesus Christ His Son. But one will need to define with Mormons which Christ are they talking about.

I do agree. We do not see the New Testament Apostles building bridges with demonic cults.

Blaine

S
sermonindex

Brother read the review of Ravi speaking at Mormon Tabernachle. In many ways encouraging. Particularly emphasizing the word. And reading the word. But wish he had emphasized more of who the word is talking about. Namely Jesus, who is the Word of God.

I found it ironic, almost prophetic, Ravi spoke of an Old Testament king who led millions into evil. He did this standing in a temple of a cult that honored Joseph Smith. A nan whose false doctrine has put millions into hell. Just as Israel was delivered through reading the word. So Mormons will be delivered to Christ if they read the New Testament.

My thoughts.

Blaine

S
Sidewalk

2 Corinthians 10:4-6 NKJV
[4] For the weapons of our warfare are not carnal but mighty in God for pulling down strongholds, [5] casting down arguments and every high thing that exalts itself against the knowledge of God, bringing every thought into captivity to the obedience of Christ, [6] and being ready to punish all disobedience when your obedience is fulfilled.


Paul, filled with love as he certainly was, described some of the parameters of his ministry. I don't think he would have snuggled with the Mormons.

As citizens, we rally together over political and cultural issues that hold the fabric of our common civilization together. We join the Catholics in their abhorence of abortion, the Mormons and others in their defense of marital fidelity, perhaps the Jews in their reverence for family. But we present Christ as the One Messiah, the one hope for eternal life, the Son of God and the foundation for understanding the meaning of life.

We believe because He is reasonable, he made claims and demonstrated His authority to back those claims. We are but witnesses of truth fulfilled before us, and we have no authority to create another narrative as the Mormons have done.

Yet in all of this we can only persuade men, we do not threaten them or coerce them to believe anything. They are completely free to believe whatever they want- but must understand we cannot compromise truth.

Those who seek truth will come to believe Him, because He is the truth.

They will have to deal in some way with the Man who said "I am the Way, the Truth, and the Life. No man comes to the Father except through Me."

Bold stuff. May we be credible messengers of that truth!

R
roadsign

The idea of dialog with a cult is foolish. Building bridges with demonic cults by sitting around and looking for common ground leads nowhere but to hell.

And yet the apostle Paul did this in Athens. He also drew metaphors from culture ”“ as wicked as it was: for example, the armor of God. (Consider the wicked motives of the Roman Empire: conquest, military might, brutality, massacre!) Today left-leaning Christians avoid the Eph. 6 passage "The armor of God" because it is of the military imagery! (There are "purists" in every camp!!)

"But what does it matter? The important thing is that in every way, whether from false motives or true, Christ is preached. And because of this I rejoice.” Philippians 1:18

May God fill us all with JOY because Christ is preached!


S
sermonindex

My sister good wise thoughts. Having finally listened to Ravi's second message I am rethinking some things. Will post later.

Blaine

H
Heydave

OK I watched the Mormon tabernacle talk again to make sure I did not miss anything. So......

Roadsign said: "And yet the apostle Paul did this in Athens."
But this is not what Ravi did here! Paul did NOT say to those in Athens ' you know what, we may have a theological differences, but lets work to a common cause and get some morality back in this city!'. What Paul did was take their ignorance of an 'unknown god' and use it to explain clearly who the true God is and then clearly state that God commands all men everywhere to repent because judgement is to come.
This is hardly 'finding common ground' with the idolaters in Athens!

I stand by what I wrote before that Ravi's talk would be OK in the context of a 'Christian' or even a general secular audience, but in the context of being invited to speak to Mormons it was sadly lacking and open to be an endorsement of this wicked cult.

One of the main problems as I see it is that he laid a foundation at the beginning by saying "despite our theological difference we can find a common cause to create a moral soul for this culture" (meaning USA). This then sets the mood for everything he says later and despite referring later on in his talk to the need to give the bible and Jesus centrality in our lives, this can be easily assimilated into the Mormon mind set without any disturbance to their thinking.

What an utter understatement to say that there are theological differences (even deep ones), as if they are just a different denomination! Either he does not know what Mormons teach or he is being insincere.

He used the story of Manasseh in the OT as a comparison to the western world today (which is valid). In this he used Hitler and Stalin as examples of how one man can influence and destroy millions by their deception and lead them into heathenism. However not one mention or even a hint about Joseph Smith who has done this through Mormonism. This is the issue, not one thing was said in regard to the error of Mormonism, not even a broad reference to 'trusting in a man' or 'extra biblical teaching'... nothing! But then they wouldn't have invited him and back slapped him would they??

In the end he just left them to continue thinking they were OK.

S
Sidewalk

Paul in Athens delivered perhaps his most clever and eloquent sermon ever. As for fruit? Nada.

There is no church in Athens with letters to follow, no church squabbles, no false brethren, no storming of the gates of Hell by enthusiastic new converts. It was for Paul preparatory failure, because he went from that useless exercise straight to the cauldron of sin-filled Corinth. And we know how that turned out.

Those early passages in First Corinthians were directly tied to what he learned in Athens.

"I was determined to know nothing among you except Jesus Christ, and Him crucified."

"I did not come with the fancy words of man's wisdom, but in power and demonstration of the Spirit!"

Because he had tried that earlier in Athens. The Athenians were neither moved nor converted.

Powerful lesson for us. Getting fancy and being clever is to invite useless discussion, and a likely result that no one's heart will be broken and filled with the Spirit of God.

S
sermonindex

Brethren finally had opportunity to listen to Ravi's second message given at the Mormon Tabernachle. Still mulling over it.

I asked Sandra Tanner in my visit with her how Mormons can best be reached with the gospel. She responded they needed to read ttheir Bibles. They needed to hear the truth of Christ. She said Mormons can be set free by the truth of Jesus if they will but read their Bibles.

I do aporeaciate Ravi Zacharias emphasizing the word of God. And encouraging people to read it. I pray his message takes root in those who heard it.

Blaine

B
brothagary

praise god blaine ,, maby ravi was an answer to you prayers maby ,,lets pray if he gets invited back that god will led him into some serious loving rebukes towards the mormons

side walk with all due respect i think your are reading somthing into scripture that is not there neither is it taught or implied with any clarity in scripture ,its hipothetical at best


just becasue paul saw no fruit from anthens ,does not mean his sermon was a failure ,,,,,,,with that logic jesus sermons totaly failed and his fruit was verry poor and many the most of his deciples turned away ,and whole towns rejected him

jesus said just shake the dust of you feet when you leave that town ,,that is more the bibical view rather then to relie an an asumtion of failure on pauls part ,,who in truth was a worn in ,,apostal seasend with experences with evenglising jews and gentiles

when paul said i did not come to you with exelence of speach but in fear and trembling not with words of mens wisdom ,, he is saying i did not come to like are nomale worldly pagan philsopher what i spoke and showed you was differnt from what the world shows ,,,,


even so it is noted that pauls speach was contemptable even compared with others christian speakers ,, in in revalations and knowlage he was bursting and seaping with
wisdom


blessings to ya

H
Heydave

Sidewalk, you make an important point that the gospel is not to be with clever words or man's wisdom, but through the foolishness of preaching the cross (1 Cor 1:18-21).

However I agree with Gary that there does not seem any evidence to suggest that Paul was using the wisdom of man in clever words to the Athenians on Mars hill. He preached what he always preached, which was the death and resurrection of Christ, repentance and judgement. In fact he was mocked because he preached the resurrection (being foolishness to the Greeks). Converts or no converts is not the measure of truth.

This question of what type of preaching raises an interesting question. Is apologetics a biblical method of communicating the gospel? I would suggest that in the light of 1 Corinthians 1:18-25 and 1 Corinthians 2:1-4 it is not. Apologetics may have a place in certain settings and situations, but let's not fool ourselves in thinking it is preaching the gospel. The gospel message properly presented will either bring conviction to life or offense unto death (2 Cor 2:16-17).

An article by Robert Wurtz was posted yesterday called The Power of Paul's Preaching. This is a very good presentation of this very point. I would encourage all to read it and consider the points made.

Coming back to the evening with Ravi at the Tabernacle, here is how the LDS (Mormon) News reported it, which tells us everything!!

Quote:"A rare appearance in the Salt Lake Tabernacle by an internationally acclaimed evangelist was the occasion for an "Evening of Friendship" Nov. 14 between Evangelical Protestants and Latter-day Saints,"

Quote: "Perhaps the most striking moment of the evening came when Richard Mouw, president of Fuller Theological Seminary in Pasadena, Calif., said: "I'm not being melodramatic when I say this is surely an historic occasion. . . . Dr. Mouw said that from continuing dialogue in recent years it has become apparent that "we Evangelicals have often seriously misrepresented the beliefs and practices of the Mormon community. And let me say today on this important occasion, especially to you LDS folks that are here this evening, that we Evangelicals have sinned against you."......"Noting that next year marks the 200th anniversary of the birth of Joseph Smith, he said he takes courage from Joseph's words on the occasion of the founding of the Church in April 1830."

Quote:"Pastor Greg Johnson, president of Standing Together Ministries, a group that has publicly decried the abrasive actions of street preachers protesting outside the Conference Center during general conference, expressed his gratitude to the First Presidency for allowing the use of the Tabernacle for the event".

You can read the whole article on the LDS news and you can see there that they believe that they share the same basic gospel as evangelicals apart from some 'theological differences'.

Brethren, do not be deceived!
"But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ."

"For if he that cometh preacheth another Jesus, whom we have not preached, or if ye receive another spirit, which ye have not received, or another gospel, which ye have not accepted, ye might well bear with him."
2 Corinthians 11:3-4

Edit: I have just realised that the quotes I posted from the LDS news report are from the 2004 meetings. Sorry for any misunderstanding. However the issues are still the same.

S
sermonindex

Dear brothers and sisters in Christ,

It is appreciated that you are discussing these things concerning Mormonism and the recent speaking event with Ravi Zacharias. I am also a friend of Blaine Scogin from the Persecution Watch calls. He visited Utah last summer and began to see the great need in Utah as the harvest is ripe.

I am one of Mormon background (4 generations) who was saved in 1975 as my brother shared his recent conversion to Jesus Christ. I had noticed that he had a peace in his life that I did not have. He told me that Jesus has given him peace. Well, that was not my experience in "The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints." I had no peace and was feeling utterly and completely condemned because I knew I had broken all the commandments of the law and did not measure up to the "righteousness" of Mormonism.

I was headed back to my apartment to commit suicide. But at the last moment I cried out to God, "If you are real, please reveal yourself to me because I don't think life on this earth is worth living."

It came to my mind to pick find a Bible from my youth that I carried around with my other books. Someone had quoted something from John 15 to me once...but I opened up the book and began reading from John 14 "Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me. In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so...." I kept reading and the Lord Jesus revealed Himself to me through His own words. His peace descended upon me and filled me. That peace has never left me in 38 years though I have been through trials and tribulations that I could not have handled were it not for Jesus as Lord and Savior in my life.

So, all that to say, my conversion to Christ was similar to Ravi Zacharias' and that has always touched me to no end! And last week as I viewed his talks in Utah, I saw no compromise to the true gospel, it was done lovingly, respectfully and kindly. Those in Mormonism who believe there is no difference between Ravi's Jesus and theirs have not gotten to the point where Ravi is always trying to speak to people: Let my people think.

When you have been lied to all your life through false teachings it is imperative to get to the place where you do start to think for yourself. I know many who have come out of Mormonism to the true Jesus and every story is different. Jesus reveals himself to many gently and others more fervently. And then it may take years to come to terms with brain-washing and family persecution.

Jesus is sufficient for all those who follow him and receive His Holy Spirit. Repentance comes. Renouncing false things comes. He does it for each believer in different ways. "A bruised reed he will not break." I have seen that over and over and He was this way with me. It will always be the love and kindness of believers in Christ who bring speak the truth in love. Compromise is not necessary, only the Word of God as given to us in Scripture.

Thank you for praying for the prisoners bound up in false religions, Mormonism being only one of them. I thank our precious Lord and Almighty God for saving me and my 3 siblings as well as thousands of others who were raised in Mormonism. I do believe he has softened many hearts to hear the gospel. When the Lord sends a "Mormon" your way, love them with the love of Christ and give your testimony. Emphasize the Bible. And leave the rest to God!

In Christ Alone,
Leslie Manto

R
roadsign

… I saw no compromise to the true gospel, it was done lovingly, respectfully and kindly. Those in Mormonism who believe there is no difference between Ravi's Jesus and theirs have not gotten to the point…

An interesting observation! This could be said of Jesus’s ministry. Many rejoiced in his kindness (ex miracles). They liked Jesus - but were unable to grasp the deeper implications of his message.

Is the mark of Biblical integrity to be determined by how much hostility you arouse from unbelievers?

How fruitful is it to spend time assessing the integrity of messengers? Even Paul said, "What does it matter…” I have a friend who was truly saved while watching Jesus Christ Super Star. She had never heard the gospel before. Yet she saw her sins upon the cross ”“ and turned to Christ as a result. It was Holy Spirit conviction ”“ IN SPITE OF the movie. Her trial came afterwards when, in sharing her new faith, she was repetitively warned: "Now that you are saved you cannot do this…. and this…. and this…”

Why not lean towards the side of generous grace - GOD'S grace?

Diane


H
Heydave

Hi Les,
Thank you for your testimony, which is wonderful. It is great to hear how the Lord reaches out and saves each of us in our different needs and circumstances.

I know I have been hard on Ravi Zacharias regarding this issue. I don't think he has compromised the gospel, he was not preaching the gospel. He may have made references to it, but the main theme was the degeneration of the western nations. My main concern is the stance of those organising this type of event, which is finding common ground with Mormonism and giving validity to that.

I don't need to say anymore as I've said it already.

God Bless.

This discussion is archived and closed to new replies. Start a new discussion to carry the subject on.
Archived
First
1 of 37 posts
Last

Everything we make is available for free because of a generous community of supporters.

Donate