Discussion of the Pretrib Rapture and Other End Time Topics

One of the first rules pf propaganda is repetition. Things become "true" because they are repeated over and over again. The "rapture" is a classic example of this. Even discussing this in America today will prove to be an uphill battle.

You would think that since Jesus never taught it, and with Paul's outspoken willingness to give up his own salvation if it could mean the salvation of his fellow pharisees, that the gospel realities of self sacrifice would over-rule doctrines clearly designed to seduce the flesh. Not so. We prefer escape.

When Jesus taught the disciples to pray, He spoke out the prophetic hope in The Father's heart. He told us to pray for the things God wanted so when the line comes "Thy will be done on earth the same as it is in heaven" we know what God wants to do on the planet He created for Man.

What those who hope in the skyward flight miss is that the hope of glory is Christ in you. When this occurs, as demonstrated on the Mount of Transfiguation, it doesn't matter whether you fly or stay right on the earth. And since restoration of the earth is a clear concept in scripture, it seems a better hope to be about fulfilling that which God longs for.

For whatever that might be worth...

Hi Bearmaster,
No doubt pre tribulation view has weaknesses like the Post tribulation.
After saying that your article is in fact "keeping saying this and it will be believed".
Like most debates from a non pre trib view it
-doesn't distinguish betweeen tribulation and "the great tribulation"
-It refers to China and persecution
-It mentions it comes from John Darby
It assumes quite wrongly that most pre tribulation believers dont believe in trials and tribulations or that they dont teach the cross.This is quite wrong and has been refuted on numerous occasions.Post tribulation believers dont have a monopoly on suffering trials or tribulations or sanctification.
What it misses totally is the pattern of the end which is success for the Church.
Yours Staff

Well said Bearmaster, Paul taught on the Resurrection of the dead and of those alive in Christ, the same as all other Prophets, Jesus, Peter and John, and man today speaks of a doctrine that is based on one word {rapture} and that same word is used in many other places in scripture that does not even relate to the Resurrection of the Dead, let us all focus on what all of the Men of God in Scripture focused on, the mystery that we are awaiting, the Resurrection of the Just in our New Immortal bodies to be with the Lord Jesus forever and to be like Him. To be with our God and Saviour, Pauls whole desire was to be in that Resurrection as were all of the Men of God and the whole purpose of Jesus arising from the Grave in His new Immortal body.
Let us truly search the scriptures to know that what we have been told is true or a lie, let us love and encourage each other to come into the Light of Christ.
Let scripture speak and let scripture be the standard not our opinions
once a scripture is examined the truth is revealed let us not try and deny the truth so that our own theory is the standard god is always glorified when the truth is revealed and held high
Many and I say many today have not studied in depth by searching the Word and allowing the Word to speak the Truth, Scripture interprets itself by the power of Gods Word and the Holy Spirit
In my studies I have found that there is not one single verse that supports a pretrib theory not one all come tumbling down jesus stated the signs before his coming there is only one trumpet call and that is the last thereis only one resurrection of the just and that is the last day and when jesus comes at the restoration of all things

Hi Budgie,
Your quote:
In my studies I have found that there is not one single verse that supports a pretrib theory

Jesus Said Noah and Lot were not present during the wrath of God.Jesus also said that the "Judgement of God"would not come "until"they were taken out

Yours Staff

Well said however the judgement of the flood and the deliverance of Noah and the judgement of Sodom and the deliverance of Lot has no reference to a resurrection of the dead in Christ and no reference to a pretrib resurrection, no more than it has reference to a postrib resurrection view, as I said before there is not one scripture that clearly supports a Pretrib Resurrection (theory) and a pretrib coming of Christ (theory), they are but theories and are not based on the words of Jesus. We must always focus on what Jesus spoke,Jesus did not speak a theory He stated a truth and that is that after the Tribulation there will be signs in the sky and when He comes with a shout and a trumpet then we will be gathered together to him from the 4 points of heaven and earth, that is a clear statement that we cannot deny, all other verses regarding the resurrection of the just align with these words of Jesus,Jesus also clearly spoke of the Resurrection of the Just and of the resurrection of the unjust, Jesus also spoke that he will raise us up at the last day(not any day but the last day), Jesus also spoke of the body we will have in the resurrection, Jesus always spoke of it as a resurrection of the just (singular)not a pretrib or postrib resurrection but a Resurrection, and He even states when this Resurrection takes place. The reference to LOT and NOAH is not the resurrection of the just. God has planned since the beginning of creation the Resurrection of the Just, all of the Old Testament and New Testament saints have awaited this resurrection, it was planned through Jesus to be fulfilled at his Coming. Jesus was the Firstfruit and afterward at his coming those that are in Christ will all be resurrected or given new bodies if we are still alive. Noah and lot gives us a picture of how God gives us a choice and also gives us the means of deliverance. Lots wife was with lot when they left SODOM but she turned and looked back, she did not get deliverance even though she was standing next to Lot,also noah and lot were both present on earth and protected by God on earth during the judgements, Noah was in the ark on the water on the earth, he was in the judgement but protected and provided for in the boat and had to wait for the flood to subside. In the judgement that lot went through LOT had to physically leave the area of Sodom. He was protected on the earth but His wife was not, even though she was with him. When jesus comes he will bring deliverance to us while he brings judgement to the wicked. Daniel, Joel, revelations, Matthew, Zechariah, Peter, John, Thessalonians, Corinthians and many other books speak of the same truth regarding the Resurrection. We must focus on the Resurrection, Jesus clearly said that after the tribulation there will be signs in the sun and moon then he will come in the clouds with a shout and trumpet and he will gather us to himself, there is not one verse in scripture where Jesus states that (before the tribulation) you will see the signs in the sun and moon and a shout and trumpet and that he will gather together to him those that are in him. Paul even stated that Christ will not come until the Apostasy and the antichrist is revealed and that when Christ comes He will destroy the Antichrist with the brightness of His coming. Paul always spoke of the Resurrection and this is what he said 1Th 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
1Th 4:15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
1Th 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. Paul stated the same events as Jesus stated, a shout and a trumpet and a gathering together to himself. There are hundreds of verses that speaks of God bringing deliverance to the godly and judgement to the wicked.
The children of Israel were in the judgement of Egypt with the plagues, but were protected, they were not taken out of Egypt at this time, they had to place blood over their doorposts and went through the judgement in Egypt only those with the blood were protected, they were not taken away from Egypt during this judgement, deliverance was given to those under the blood and judgement came at the same time to the wicked , they were then led out of Egypt by God and in the sea Israel was saved and Egypt was again judged in the same sea.
Let us base our doctrine on the clear words of Christ, He told us exactly what would happen and in what order. He told us when he would come and even told us what would happen before he comes and what would happen at his coming. Jesus spoke very clearly on the Resurrection of the Just. Every verse in scripture is in total agreement with the words of Christ regarding his coming and the dead being raised and gathered to him.
Revelations even tells us when the First Resurrection takes place. If it says this is the first resurrection then I will believe it and not deny it or try and change it to suit a theory.It is the Truth.
Revelations gives an amazing insight into what things take place before He comes, it gives clear references to the Resurrection of the Just, clear reference to when the Bride has finally made Herself ready, clear reference to when the marriage takes place, clear reference to the first resurrection, clear reference to when the Kingdoms of this world becomes the kingdoms of Christ, clear reference to when Christ will rule this earth with a Rod of Iron, clear reference to when Jesus comes and defeats the antichrist, clear reference to when Satan is bound and clear reference to the Resurrection of the unjust.
There is not one verse that when truly examined in the light of scripture and in the use of Hebrew and Greek that clearly supports a pretrib resurrection, no not one.

bearmaster wrote:
I wonder if the reason many are going to fall away as described in the above verses is the belief in a pre trib rapture.

Also, another point, I have noticed talking to Christians that a great number that believe in a pre-trib doctrine believe in the once saved always saved doctrine, the two seem to go hand-in-hand. I do not have statistics for this just my own observations talking to people around me and on the internet.

But anyway, good point, and God bless you for having the courage to make it!!! LOL

God bless,
Lisa

As someone who believes that the Lord will snatch up His bride before the Great Tribulation, I thought I'd share a few thoughts on this thread as to why I believe this to be the truth of scripture.

In looking at the promises of Jesus concerning His return, rather than looking at His prophesy in Matthew 24 of future events of this world, I would rather start with His intimate talk to His 11 disciples in the upper room in John 14 to 17. His first words after,significantly Judas had gone out, are:

Joh 14:1 Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me.
Joh 14:2 In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.
Joh 14:3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.

He reveals to them that He is going to His Father, and that He will return for them to take them also to His Father's house. In these four chapters are revealed the intimacy of the Father and the Son and them also by the Holy Ghost. A new special relation is revealed for them (and for us who believe) ie that of being in Him and He in them. It is a glorious truth which Paul later takes up as being the foundation of the church, His bride and His body.

But as regards the truth of His return, He simply says "I will come again and receive you unto myself". There is no mention here of signs of His coming, of famine, earthquakes, betrayals or the abomination of desolation. Simply, "I will come again and receive you unto myself".

This, I believe is where we should be, expecting His return at any time, not looking to events or signs, whether prophesied or not. This was to be a new revelation to the 11 disciples and to us. He says in chap 16:

Joh 16:4 But these things have I told you, that when the time shall come, ye may remember that I told you of them. And these things I said not unto you at the beginning, because I was with you.

The truth of these chapters are a new thing, not said to them at the beginning, or during his prophesy in Matt 24, because at that time, he was "with them".

The purpose, the style, the audience and the content of these four chapters in John are so different from the purpose style audience and content of Matthew 24.

I would be happy to expand on this, but for now will leave it at that

DavidC

This subject is nearly always going to attract polarised views on either end of the spectrum. That is not to say that it should not be discussed, because that is how we learn. However I don't think it is helpful to form camps of one view or another and give caractures of the oposite camp.
(I used to be of the pre-trib camp, but am not of any camp now regarding the when the rapture takes place). Both pre and post camps say things about each others which are either incorrect or hugely generalistic.

Why not discuss the topic purely from a scriptural basis, not using any other reasoning. This would be most helpful. I appreciated DavidC's post, but David you need to give more scripture than this to show why you take this view.

We should be able to accept diferent views on this subject without regarding those with a different view to us as being deceived or unspiritual. If it was that clear in scripture there would not be so many different opinions. Whenever it is, we know that the Lord is going to take His people to be with Him and has prepared a place for them in His Father's house, so those who have this hope purify themselves!

Edit: I should have also said I appreciated Budgie's last post. I think he has some good points. It is up to the pre-tribbers to now provide the scriptures for their view.

May I say this in the most loving and encouraging way, Hebrews states in Heb 6:1 Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God,
Heb 6:2 Of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment.
There can only be one true Doctrine on the Resurrection, it is a foundational teaching.
There can only be One Truth,it is like a building that is being built, if the foundation is true and straight then the whole building stands in beauty and strength, if it is not built on a true and straight foundation it all comes crashing down and there is no beauty and glory.
The One Truth is like a puzzle, each truth is a piece to the puzzle, it can only go together one way to create the picture that was intended, if each piece is twisted, tipped upside down, cut or forced the puzzle will not come together and the true beautiful picture will never be revealed in its beauty.
Gods Word is True, there can only be one truth to the Resurrection and how it fits in the picture, each verse is a piece to the puzzle, either the verse is true or it has been twisted and is now a lie.
Gods word is true, and each piece must come together as God has designed.
The following are some truthful puzzle pieces.
1 Jesus was dead but is now alive in His New Immortal body
2 Jesus is the firstborn from the dead
3 Jesus is the FirstFruits of the dead
4 there is an order to the resurrection of the immortal body, first Christ
5 afterward at Christ coming those in Christ will receive the new immortal body
6 we will receive a body like His and be like Him
7 Jesus said that He will raise us at the last day
8 Jesus said that this day of His coming this last day will be with a shout
9 Jesus said that this day of His coming will be with a loud trumpet sound
10 Paul said that this Trumpet sound will be the Last Trumpet
11 Paul stated that we will not be gathered to Christ until first comes the Apostasy and the Antichrist is revealed
12 Paul said that Jesus will destroy the Antichrist at His coming
13 Paul stated that our bodies will be changed at that last trumpet in the twinkling of an eye
14 Paul stated that after our bodies are changed in the twinkling of an eye we will then arise to meet Christ in the air
15 Revelations tells us exactly when the Bride of Christ has finally made herself ready
16 Revelations tells us when the bride has been clothed
17 Revelations tells us that the clothing is the righteousness of the saints
18 Revelations tells us when this First Resurrection takes place
19 Revelations tells us when the mystery of the Resurrection will be completed, every prophecy regarding the Resurrection finally fulfilled
20 Revelations tells us exactly when all the Kingdoms become Christ
21 Revelations tells us exactly when death is swallowed up in victory
22 Revelations tells us exactly when we begin to Rule and reign with Christ
23 Jesus clearly talks about the Resurrection of us as a Resurrection of the Just
There is only One Truthful teaching regarding the Coming of Christ and of the Resurrection on that last day at the last trump.
Search today and know the Truth, one doctrine is true one is a lie from the master of lies himself who has come to steal and destroy.
Paul only taught one truth and that truth has to be the same as the truth that Jesus spoke and all of the bible speaks.
Don't settle for a lie, search the scriptures, get the pieces of the puzzle right.
God will be Glorified when the pieces come together as True
The Doctrine of Resurrection is an elementary teaching and is a foundational teaching, the year is 2014 and still the foundation is in disarray.
Please God Help us To lay the Truthful foundation and that we may all go onto perfection.
One thing I do know is that there is a great searching in the Word of God and many and I say many are changing their theories and are aligning their doctrine to the truthful doctrine of Christ.

Jesus spoke many words to His disciples and we must take into account all of the words He spoke to them and base our truth on all that He spoke not only a few.
Jesus told us everything He wanted us to know and IF NOT SO HE WOULD HAVE TOLD US

Joh 14:1 Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me.
Joh 14:2 In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.
Joh 14:3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.

As I read this, I do not see a physical trip to a real estate venue. While an abundance of teaching has gone forth about heaven with lush gardens, golden streets, and magnificent mansions I don't think that is what He is talking about.

Paul's succinct statement that the long standing hidden mystery of the hope of glory was Christ in you came directly from the teaching of Jesus to His disciples in the John chapters 14 - 17. In these teachings it is clear that our destination is not real estate, but relationship.

"I go to prepare a place for you so that where I am, ye may be also" means that His intention is to have the disciples join Him in mature and complete sonship with the Father. Physical locations are irrelevant, the relationship is everything.

The baptism of the Holy Spirit is God's gift to men to give a small foretaste of that relationship, and that is why Paul makes so many references to it as "The earnest (or downpayment) of our inheritance" and "the first-fruits of the Spirit." We should all as a part of our day by day awareness of God and His purposes have that touch of eternity in our hearts as we wait for the promised redemption.

From my observations, those who do not have a genuine relationship with the Holy Spirit cannot grasp the hope of that sonship realtionship and are confined to hope in earthly imagery.

Budgie,
Very comprehensive list you have given. If you could give the scripture references to all your points that would be helpful.

Sidewalk,
I don't think anyone would disagree that oursalvation is all about relationship with God. However you seem to be suggesting that there is no physical reality and that all references to future reality is spiritual. Do you really believe that there is no heaven, no new earth, no throne, no temple in heaven, etc? And that we just sort of float around in some sort of non physical spiritual state?

Thanks HeyDave for your comments. I agree wholeheartedly with your comments about making caracatures of opposing camps and over-generalising.

I personnally was raised in an amillennial fellowship, which I found to be too vague concerning the last days. I then discovered Darby and found his views to be a wonderfull revelation of scripture. Is this blasphemy on this site? But I agree that there are different ways of interpreting certain key passages, such as Matt 24 and Rom 11 and 2 Thess 2. So for the sake of my brethren, I try to be more understanding.

You said I should provide more scripture to support my view, but I was not intending to put accross my own view on last days. I only wanted to say that I like to see Christ's second coming initially from chapter 14 of John.

Budgie, I agree and could say a big amen to all of your 23 points on resurrection truth.

David

Do I see physical realities disappearing? Emphatically no!

I draw much of the structure of my eschatology from Romans 8 where Paul proclaims that the whole creation, under its present bondage to decay, is released into the glorious liberty of the Sons of God.

Additionally, it is the desire of the Father that His will be done on earth as it is in heaven, and I think that connects in here too. Let alone the reign of Christ for a thousand years on the earth- again very much a physical reality.

When Jesus taught that the kingdom of heaven was like a man who found a treasure hidden in a field, and that he then bought the whole field, I see his demonstration of that on the Mount of Transfiguration. Here, Jesus the mortal man puts on immortality as witnessed by the disciples. He is speaking with Moses and Elijah but the substance of the conversation is not given- no need.

Jesus is in a heavenly plane where he can just chat with his eternal buddies somewhat outside of time, as we know Moses and Elijah were not contemporaries in the historical timeline.

Peter, his jaw hanging somewhere around his knees, is witness to something never seen before by mortal man, but in his earthly plane he cannot participate. In the jumble of his mind the most important thing is the booths!

We also know that Jesus did not keep that glorious substance, but laid it aside. Had he not, there would have been no purchase of the field and no ability for Him to share the immortal glory with Peter James and John- and by extension, us!

Our experience is so overwhelmingly physical! We have glimpses of eternal things, we believe in hope for the good things promised, but our knees still creak and our backs still hurt. We're not there yet.

But we welcome each day as one closer to the promises, and our hearts are buoyed by the Spirit living within. These things will be both spiritual and physical because we are created beings cast in the image of Almighty God. We will by His promises and the yearning of His love one day be like him, a part of that incredible conversation that the gospel writers saw ever so briefly on the mount.

Brere Bear

Why do you think Matt 28 v30 says that the "sign" of the Son of man will appear, and not the Son of man Himself?

David

The sign of the Son of man coming is spoken of in verse 27
Mat 24:27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

There will be a shining light that is brighter than any lightning and will fill the whole world, it will shine from the east to the west, there will be no darkness, we saw a picture of this only a few months ago when that meteor hit Russia during the day

it then goes on to say they shall see the Son of Man

Mat 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

I am very wary of anyone who claims that they have all the details and sequence of events of the end times all sorted out. Since I became a Christian 32 years ago I have been exposed to in depth teaching about the end times and particularly in the early years this has been from a pre-tribulation perspective. Despite various teachers claiming to know all the details, I see many flaws and inconsistencies in many of these.

The pre-trib; post trib or pre-wrath debate would only apply to those who take the literal pre-millennial view of the end times. You have all the others who take an allegorical view of end time prophecy for who this debate would be irrelevant. I take the literal pre-millennial view.

For my part I see a good argument in saying that the resurrection or rapture of the saints takes place at the same time as the second coming as detailed in Matthew 24 as others have already commented. However we have to then define the second coming events and there is more to the return of Jesus Christ than His actual appearing, there is the outpouring of His wrath upon the earth in such catastrophic ways that accompanying His return. These would be separate to His actual appearing, but very much part of His return in judgement. I'm talking about the bowls of wrath judgement in Revelation 16 which occur just prior to Christ's return.

When folk talk about 'the tribulation' they commonly mean a seven year period starting in Revelation 6 and finishing in Revelation 19. Terms commonly used are not necessarily helpful. 'Post tribulation' needs to be defined as it cannot mean 'post return of Christ' and we Know from Rev 19 that Christ returns in the midst of the outpouring of His wrath. In Matthew 24:29-31 it says 'after the tribulation (trouble) of those days there will be signs and shaking of the heavens and a sign of Christ coming in the clouds and He will send out His angels with a trumpet sound (last trumpet according to Paul) to gather His elect'. Firstly we see that 'after the tribulation (trouble) of those days' there are still major signs and shaking of the heavens taking place. Compare this to Revelation 14:14-16 where there is a reaping of the harvest by 'one like the son of man'. I don't see this reaping as judgment as it is a harvest. The second reaping in vs 17-20 is a reaping of judgement. Now this reaping of the harvest takes place immediately after the last trumpet in Rev 11:15-19 which interesting proclaims "The kingdoms of this world have become the kingdoms of our Lord and of His Christ". In other words This is the start of the second coming of Christ to take His kingdom. So from this I see how this agrees with the things Paul wrote in 1 Thessalonians 4 and 5 about the lord coming to gather His people 'in the air' at the last trumpet. We also see that the marriage of the lamb is declared to have come at this point in Revelation 19 before the Lord returns to execute the final judgement, but NOT before the tribulation as is often said.

So in summary, what I see is a return of Christ for His church at His second coming, but prior to the outpouring of wrath as detailed in Revelation 16, which I understand to be at the very end of this 7 year tribulation period and all part of His return. So that would mean that those saints that are around during this time will suffer persecution and tribulation as laid out in the book, but be gathered to the Lord before the final wrath of God upon the earth. So there is one return, but different events taking place for different groups of people during this time.

I'm sure there will be flaws found in what I have written, but that is what I can see at the moment.

Re: Reply To This Post |

Budgie,
Very comprehensive list you have given. If you could give the scripture references to all your points that would be helpful.

Hello Heydave

You asked for this list of verses, it is quite comprehensive but can be copied and pasted to a Word Document for further study and feedback

THE PLUMBLINE FOR THE CORRECT DOCTRINE ON THE RESURRECTION

In Hebrews 6:1-2 we see that the doctrine of the Resurrection is one of the Elementary and Foundational Doctrines of our Faith.

Paul was an Apostle that had a very balanced Doctrine and was responsible for maintaining and also challenging Doctrines in the Body of Christ.

In the book of 2Timothy 3:16 we read that all scripture is given by inspiration by God and is profitable for Doctrine, for Reproof, for Correction, for Instruction in Righteousness.

For the Doctrine of Resurrection today there are so many views, so many theories and so much conflict, it is my endeavour in this list to simply present as many of the clear and concise scriptures that speak of the Resurrection, and they are scriptures or a Plumbline that I continually use for any of the studies I have done, it is so important that I must always align myself and my ideas to this plumbline.

I would encourage all to read and to study so that it may be the plumbline for your views and theories; I have presented them as bullet points as they are very crucial.

Ӣ\t1 Cor 15:20 Now is Christ risen and He has become the firstfruits of them that slept, when this verse is broken up it shows that Jesus is the First of Fruits of them that slept, He is the First of many, these fruits that He is the First of is all of those that are in Christ from many tribes, nations and race.
Ӣ\tRev 1:5 also confirms this statement and states that Jesus is the First born from the dead, this implies that there was no other before Him and that He alone was the First born.
Ӣ\tCol 1:18 also confirms the same Jesus is the First born from the dead.
Ӣ\t1 Cor 15:21 states that by Christ came the resurrection of the dead.
Ӣ\t1 Cor 15:22 states that in Christ shall ALL be made alive.
Ӣ\t1 Cor 15:23 states that there is an order to the Resurrection in the immortal body.
Ӣ\t1 Cor 15:23 Jesus Christ is First.
Ӣ\t1 Cor 15:23 Afterward those that are Christs at His Coming, by this verse we see that only Jesus Christ is risen in His new Immortal body and that afterward at His coming those that are Christs will be raised in the New Immortal Body.
Ӣ\t1 Cor 15:42-49 states that the Resurrection of our bodies will be a body that is raised and also for those that are alive at the time it will be a body that is changed, changed to a body that is incorruptible, in Glory, in Power, a Spiritual Body and a Heavenly Body.

Ӣ\tRomans 8:23 states that we have the first fruits of the Spirit, and that because we have just the first fruits we are still groaning, waiting for the adoption, the redemption of our body, we are still awaiting that immortal body, at present we are still housed in this mortal body.
Ӣ\t 1 Cor 15:51 states that we will not all die but that we will ALL be changed.
Ӣ\t1 Cor 15:52 states that this changing takes place in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, it says that the dead will be raised incorruptible and we will be changed.
Ӣ\tRom 8:11 states that the same Spirit that raised Jesus from the dead will also raise us up from the dead.
Ӣ\t1 Thess 4:13-14 states that we have a Hope in Jesus in that all that have died in Christ He shall bring with Him, these that have died that Jesus is bringing with Him are the spirits and they are still awaiting to be clothed in their new bodies, how do we know this? Because verse 16 tells us.
Ӣ\t1 Thess 4:16 states that when He comes the dead in Christ will rise first, this reveals an amazing Truth that the dead bodies of those that have died will be raised incorruptible and will be joined again with our spirit.
Ӣ\t1 Thess 4:15 states that we who are alive and are changed will not be before those that have died, and again in verse 16 the dead will rise first, before us.
Ӣ\t2 Cor 5:8 states that to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord, so when we have no body we are present with the Lord and when He returns again He will bring our spirit and will again clothe us but with a New Immortal Body.
I would like to now shift for a short moment and look at some verses that are in common and are in the same order in the Old Testament as well as in the New testament,. Jesus, Paul, John, and Daniel as well as in the book of Acts all speak in exact Harmony on the Resurrection, they all speak of a Resurrection of the Just, also known as the Resurrection of Life and also known as the Resurrection of Everlasting Life and they also speak of a resurrection of the unjust, also known as the resurrection of damnation, also known as the resurrection of everlasting contempt. The verses for these are as follows, Luke 14:14, Acts 24:15, John 5:28, Daniel 12:2. All are spoken in the same order and are in Harmony.
Ӣ\tRevelations 20 also speaks of two Resurrections, the First is when Jesus comes and is spoken of as Blessed and Holy is he that takes part in the first resurrection, on such the second death has no power and they shall be Priests of God and Christ and shall reign with Christ a 1000 years, we then read that not all of the dead are raised in this First Resurrection. After 1000 years the sea and death and hell delivered up all of the dead and they were judged by God and those that are not written in the Book of Life are cast into the lake of Fire. So we again see that this First Resurrection is a Resurrection of those that are Justified in Christ, they are Blessed and Holy and the second Resurrection is of those that are judged and there is the Lake of Fire. This concept of two resurrections is important to keep in mind.
Let us now go back to the Resurrection of those in Christ, what does the scriptures say of how this takes place.

Ӣ\t1 Thess 4:16 states that Jesus Himself will descend with a Shout, with the Voice of an Archangel, and with the Trump of God.
Ӣ\t1 Cor 15:52 states that this Trump will be the Last Trump and that it will sound.
Ӣ\tMath 24:30-31 are also in Harmony with the above and states that Jesus comes in the Clouds with Great Power and Glory, Jesus sends His Angels with a Great Awakening Blast of a Trumpet and that His Angels will gather together His Elect from the four points of Heaven.
Ӣ\tMark 13:27 states that the Angels will gather the Elect from the four points of Heaven and the earth.
Ӣ\tJohn 6:39, 40, 44 states that Jesus will raise up those that God has given to Him on the Last Day.
Let us quickly summarise Jesus comes in the clouds, with a great awakening blast of a Trumpet and this trumpet is called the last Trumpet, there is a Shout, with the Voice of an Archangel, and the angels gather to Him all that are in Him from the four points of the Heaven and the Earth and Jesus stated that this will be at the Last Day, surely this is the resurrection of the Just and surely it is the First Resurrection.
Ӣ\t1 Thess 4:17 also harmonizes with this in that it states that after the dead are raised we will be caught up to meet them in the clouds, this being caught up after the dead are raised and our bodies are changed is called the (rapture) it is the means by which we are gathered by force to the clouds to meet Jesus.
Ӣ\t1 Thess 5:10 states that whether we are dead or alive we will Live together with Him.
Ӣ\t! Thess 4:17 states that when this happens we shall ever be with the Lord Jesus, (wherever He exists we will be with Him)
Ӣ\t1 Cor 15:54-56 states that death will be swallowed up in victory, death has no sting and the grave has no victory.
Ӣ\t2 Thess 1:10 states that Jesus will come to be Glorified in His saints and to be admired in all of them that believe.
Ӣ\tMath 24:27 states that as the lightning cometh out of the east and shineth even to the west so shall also be the Coming of the Sun of Man, even when on a day of sun the lightning strikes and lights up the sky with brilliant brightness and sound.
Ӣ\t2 Tim 2:18 Paul is speaking about a lie that had caused an overthrowing of the faith in some believers; this lie was that the resurrection is past already, a false Doctrine regarding the resurrection.
Ӣ\t2 Thess 2:1-2 Paul addresses this issue of the Coming of Christ and our Gathering together to Him and in verse 1 pleads with them to not be troubled by spirit, by word, or by letter as if it was from Paul or any other believer as if the day of Christ is at hand, Paul is clearly talking about the day of Christ when He comes and gathers us to Himself. Paul may have been concerned as to the error that had been of concern in the letter of Timothy above.

Ӣ\t2 Thess 2:3 Paul then states to them to not be deceived by any man, for there comes a falling away (apostasia) first, and that the man of sin, the son of perdition be revealed, if we take into account what paul is saying it appears very clear that he is concerned for the believers and does not want them to be deceived and troubled and wants to assure them that Christ will not come and gather us to Himself until the Apostasia and the son of Perdition is revealed, Paul then goes on to say in verse 8 that Jesus will destroy the son of perdition at His coming.
Ӣ\t2 Thess 2:15 Paul then states to stand fast in the traditions which you have been taught whether by word or epistle, we should also do the same. Stand firm on the word and the epistles.
Ӣ\tRevelations 19:20 also harmonizes with what Paul is saying regarding the Coming of Christ and the destruction of the Beast and the false prophet, it says that both the beast and the false prophet who worked miracles and deceived were cast into the lake of fire.
Ӣ\tDaniel 7:11 also harmonises with the destruction of this person, it states that the beast was slain and his body destroyed and given to the burning flame
Ӣ\tMatthew 24:30-31 Talks about the coming of Christ in the clouds with great power and glory and that He sends His Angels with a Great Awakening Blast and gathering His elect from the four points of Heaven and earth but where is this placed in Matthew 24
Ӣ\tMatthew 24:29-30 Show that His Coming is after the Tribulation, and it also says that it is after the Sun is darkened, the moon does not give its light and the stars fall from heaven, it does not state how long this sequence of events take but it does say after these events.
Ӣ\tMatthew 24:36 says of that day and hour of Christs coming after those events, no one knows, only the Father.
”¢\tLuke 21:28 harmonizes with the same and states that when you see these things begin to happen to look up for Redemption is drawing near, still don’t know the day or hour but it is drawing near.
Ӣ\tLuke 21:31 also states the same again when you see these things come to pass know that the Kingdom of God is near at hand.
Ӣ\tRevelations 6:12-13 also harmonise with the Sun and Moon and Stars, it states the sun became black as sack cloth, the Moon became as blood, the stars of heaven fell onto the earth, these events also takes place just prior to the Lamb coming to the Earth.
Ӣ\tJoel 2;10 also speak of the Sun and Moon and stars and again in Joel 2:31 the sun being turned to darkness, the moon into blood before the Coming of the Great and awesome day of Jehovah, who ever will call on the name of the Lord will be saved

Ӣ\tRev 10:7 It is interesting to note that a statement is made when the 7th Trumpet is about to sound that the Mystery of God should be finished as God has stated to His servants the Prophets, also in Rev 11;15 the 7th Trumpet sounds and when it does it states that there are voices in Heaven saying that the Kingdoms of this world are become the Kingdoms of Christ and He shall reign forever and ever. There are several mysteries that we are still awaiting, the Coming of Christ, when is He coming, the mystery of the resurrection when is it happening, the restoration of Israel, when is it happening, the king sitting on the throne in Jerusalem when is it happening, the reign of Christ over all of the Kingdoms and all of the prophecies concerning the coming of Christ and the Resurrection. When will they be fulfilled?

There are so many other verses and so many other events but I think the ones that have been mentioned present a plumbline of consistency and harmony.

To summarise the Plumbline of verses that I must also use for any doctrine or theory on the Coming of Jesus and the Resurrection that I speak, and that I believe myself, I must always harmonise with the following true points.

Does my Doctrine line up with the following?

Ӣ\tIs Jesus the First Fruit
Ӣ\tIs Jesus the First Born
Ӣ\tIs Jesus the only one that has received the new immortal body until He comes
Ӣ\tIs there the correct order of Resurrection Christ First and afterward those that are Christs at His coming
Ӣ\tIn Christ shall all be made alive
Ӣ\tAre we all be changed in the twinkling of an eye
Ӣ\tAre the dead in Christ risen First then we who are alive will be changed and caught up to meet them in the clouds
Ӣ\tDoes it agree with to be absent from the body is to be present in the Lord
Ӣ\tDoes it agree with that Jesus brings with Him those that have died and that when He comes the dead will be raised and the spirit will be reclothed in the resurrected body of immortality
Ӣ\tDoes it agree with the 2 Resurrections, the Resurrection of the Just, the first Resurrection and also agree with the 2nd Resurrection the Resurrection of the unjust a 1000 year period later
Ӣ\tDoes it agree with the Coming of Christ in the clouds
Ӣ\tDoes it agree with the Great Awakening Trumpet
Ӣ\tDoes it agree with the Trumpet that is sounded as being the last Trumpet
Ӣ\tDoes it agree with the Angels gathering together all of the elect from the 4 points of heaven and earth
Ӣ\tDoes it agree with Jesus raising us at the Last Day
Ӣ\tDoes it agree with what Paul stated regarding that the Coming of Jesus and His gathering us together to Himself will not happen until the Apostasia and the revealing of the Son of Perdition takes place first and that when Jesus comes He will destroy the Son of Perdition
Ӣ\tDoes it agree with Timothy and that the Resurrection has not happened yet
Ӣ\tDoes it agree with the clear events that are described in Matthew that the Tribulation comes and after it is complete there are signs in the sun and moon and stars and that the Coming of the Son of Man when He gathers all to Himself happens sometime after those signs
Ӣ\tDoes it agree with that of that day or hour when Jesus comes after those signs no one knows but God the Father
Ӣ\tDoes it agree that Blessed and Holy is He that is in the First Resurrection and that whoever is in the First Resurrection will be Priests of God and Jesus and will reign on thrones with Christ for 1000 years until the 2nd Resurrection.
Ӣ\tDoes it agree with the 7th Trumpet that when it sounds the Mystery of God is complete and that all the Kingdoms are now Christs and He will reign forever and ever?

May we always harmonise our theory or doctrine with the Word and the Epistles.

I appreciate feedback as we all need to be in Truth and in Harmony with Gods Word.

budgie,
what is your interpretation of mat 25 ,the 10 virgins?

I will answer your question very shortly as to the 10 virgins as there are many of the parables that tie in together to paint the picture

As to your question as to my scriptural references I hope this next list helps create a scriptural picture

The Harmony of scriptures in regards to The Death and Resurrection of Christ and the Coming of Christ and our Resurrection and Gathering together to Him forever in our New Immortal Bodies.

Jesus died for our sins \t\t\t\t\t \t\t1Corinthians 15; 3
Jesus was buried\t\t\t\t\t\t\t\t1Corinthians 15:4
Jesus rose again on the 3rd day\t\t\t\t\t\t1Corinthians 15:4
Christ was seen by many \t\t\t\t\t\t\t1 Corinthians 15:5-8
Some teach there is no Resurrection, if there is no Resurrection then Jesus is not risen\t\t\t\t\t\t\t\t\t\t\t1 Corinthians 15:12-13
If Christ is not raised then our Faith is vain, and we that have died in Christ are perished\t\t\t\t\t\t\t\t\t\t\t1 Corinthians 15:15-17
Christ is risen from the dead and He became the FirstFruits of the dead
\t\t\t\t\t\t\t\t\t\t1Corinthians 15:20
Jesus is the Firstborn from the dead\t\t\t\t\t Revelations 1:5
Jesus is the First born from the dead\t\t\t\t\t Colossians 1:18
Death came by one man Adam, \t\t\t\t\t\t1 Corinthians 15:20
By Christ came the Resurrection of the dead\t\t\t\t1Corinthians 15 21
In Christ all shall be made alive\t\t\t\t\t\t1Corinthians 15; 22
There is an order to being made alive in the resurrection\t\t1Corinthians 15; 23
Christ First\t\t\t\t\t\t\t\t\t1Corinthians 15; 23
Afterward all those that are Christs at His Coming\t\t\t1Corinthians 15:23
How are the dead raised and what body do they have?\t\t 1Corinthians 15:35
The dead in Christ are raised in Incorruption, are raised in Glory, are raised in Power, are raised a spiritual body, are raised a heavenly body \t\t\t1Corinthians 15:42-49
We shall all be changed\t\t\t\t\t\t\t1Corinthians 15:51
We shall all be changed in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye\t1 Corinthians 15; 52
We shall all be changed at the Last Trumpet that shall sound \t1 Corinthians 15:52
The dead shall be raised incorruptible and we shall be changed\t1 Corinthians 15:52
Death will be swallowed up in victory, death has no sting and the grave has no victory
1 Corinthians 15:54-56
The same Spirit that raised Jesus will also raise us up from the dead Romans 8:11
We have a Hope in Jesus for those that have died in Christ\t\t1 Thessalonians 4:13
Jesus will bring with Him those that have died in Christ\t\t1 Thessalonians 4:14
To be absent from this body when we die is to be present with the Lord 2 Corinthians 5:8
We who are alive on earth at the coming of Christ will not be before those who have died in Christ\t\t\t\t\t\t\t\t\t\t1 Thessalonians 4:15
Jesus descends with a shout, with the voice of an archangel with the Trumpet of God\t\t\t\t\t\t\t\t\t\t\t1 Thessalonians 4:16
Jesus comes in the clouds with Power and Glory; He sends His angels with a great Trumpet sound \t\t\t\t\t\t\t\t\tMatthew 24:30-31
Angels gather together His elect from the 4 points of Heaven\t\t Matthew 24:31
Angels gather together His elect from the 4 points of Heaven and Earth Mark 13:27
The dead in Christ shall rise first\t(their body that arises is joined with their spirits that God brings with Him)\t\t\t\t\t\t\t\t1 Thessalonians 4:17

We which are still alive (whose bodies will be changed in the twinkling of an eye) shall be caught up to the clouds to meet them that have been raised from the dead \t\t\t\t\t\t\t\t\t\t\t\t1Thessalonians 4:17
Whether we are dead or alive we will live together with Him \t \t1Thessalonians 5:10
And so shall we ever be with the Lord\t\t\t\t\t1Thessalonians 4:17
Christ shall come to be glorified in His Saints and to be admired in all of them that believe\t\t\t\t\t\t\t\t\t\t2 Thessalonians 1:10
Jesus said that He will raise up those from the dead that God had given to Him at the last day\t\t\t\t\t\t\t\t\t\tJohn 6:39, 40, 44
We have the Firstfruits of the Spirit and we groan waiting for the adoption, the redemption of our body (when we become fully spirit) (no more immortality)\t\t Romans 8:23
Paul Begs us concerning this Coming of Christ and our gathering together to Him to be not troubled as if this day is at hand\t\t\t\t\t\t2 Thessalonians 2:1-2
Paul said to not be deceived because this day will not come until first comes the falling away (APOSTASIA)\t\t\t\t\t\t\t\t2 Thessalonians 2:3
And this day will not come until also comes the revealing of the Son of Perdition \t\t\t\t\t\t\t\t\t\t\t 2 Thessalonians 2:3
This man of sin the Son of Perdition will be destroyed at the Coming of Christ \t\t\t\t\t\t\t\t\t\t\t\t2 Thessalonians 2:8
The events that take place before the Coming of Jesus and the Trumpet sound and the gathering together to Himself from the 4 points of heaven and earth are as follows
The Abomination that is spoken of in Daniel Matthew 24:15, Mark 13:14-19 Daniel 9:27
The Tribulation starts when this abomination takes place in Jerusalem Matthew 24:21, Mark 13;19,
The beast that is given power for 42 months \t\t\t\tRevelations 13:1-8
The 2 witnesses that are given power for 42 months at the same time that the Gentiles trample the Holy City of God\t\t\t\t\t\tRevelations 11:2-13
There shall be signs in the sun and moon, and the stars; there shall be distress of nations with perplexity, the seas and waves roaring\t\t\t\tLuke 21:25
Mens hearts failing them for fear and because of things happening on the earth, for the powers of heaven shall be shaken\t\t\t\t\tLuke 21:26
The sun shall be darkened, the moon not give her light, the stars shall fall from heaven and the Heavens shall be shaken, these signs shall come after the Tribulation Matthew 24:29 and Mark 13:24
These things happen immediately after the Tribulation \tMatthew 24:29-33, Mark 13:24-29, Luke 21:25-31
And when we see these things beginning to come to pass, then look up your heads for your redemption is drawing nigh (the redemption of our new immortal body)
We must take heed to ourselves when these things begin to happen, we must be careful that we do not have our hearts overcharged with surfeiting, and drunkenness, and cares of this life so that this day of the Coming of Christ come upon us unawares, for as a snare it shall come upon all of (them) that dwell on the earth.
And then shall appear the sign of the Son of Man in Heaven \t\t\tMatthew 24:30

For as the Lightning cometh out of the east and (shineth) even to the West so shall also the Coming of the Son of Man be \t\t\t\t\tMatthew 24:27, Luke17: 24
They shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds with Power and Great Glory
But does anyone know this day or hour of Christs Coming after these signs? No one knows but God the Father \t\t\t\t\t\tMatthew 24:36-51, Mark 13:32- 37,

Revelations tells us when the First Resurrection takes place ( the Resurrection of the Just)
Blessed and Holy is he that hath part in the 1st Resurrection on such the second death has no power, but they shall be Priests of God and of Christ and will reign with Christ for a 1000 years\t\t\t\t\t\t\t\t\t\t\tRevelations 20:6
Jesus speaks of this Resurrection of the Just \t\t\t\t\tLuke 14:14
Reference again made to the 2 Resurrections of the Just and the Unjust are made in Acts 24:15
Again Jesus speaking of the 2 Resurrections in the same order the Resurrection of Life and the Resurrection of damnation \t\t\tJohn 5:28
Daniel also speaks of these 2 Resurrections in the same order some awake to everlasting life and some rise to shame and everlasting contempt \t\t\t\tDaniel 12:2
The rest of the dead lived not again until the 1000 years is finished, the Resurrection of the dead before that 1000 years is the 1st Resurrection. \t\t\t\tRevelations 20:5
What takes place around the time of this 1st Resurrection
The marriage of the Lamb is come \t\t\t\t\t\tRevelations 19:7
The bride has made herself ready\t\t\t\t\t\t\tRevelations 19:7
He has been granted to be clothed in fine linen\t\t\t\t\tRevelations 19:8
The linen is the righteousness of the saints\t\t\t\t\tRevelations 19:8
There was a White Horse with the Word of God sitting on it \t\t\tRevelations 19:13
The armies of Heaven follow with Him\t\t\t\t\t\tRevelations 19:14
Jesus will smite the nations and tread the winepress of the wrath of God \tRevelations 19:15
Jesus will rule the nations with a rod of iron\t\t\t\t\tRevelations 19:14
The armies of the beast will be assembled ready to fight Jesus \t\tRevelations 19:19
Jesus takes the Beast and the false prophet and throws them into the Lake of Fire Revelations 19:20
This man of sin the Son of Perdition will be destroyed at the Coming of Christ \t\t\t\t\t\t\t\t\t\t\t\t2 Thessalonians 2:8
The 1000 years begins
Thrones are seen at this time with those in the First Resurrection reigning with Christ, those that were beheaded for their witness of Jesus, and for the word of God and which had not worshipped the image of the beast, nor the image and had not received the mark of the beast on their foreheads or hands were seen alive with Christ and they reigned with Christ 1000 years\t\t\t\t\t\t\t\t\t\t\tRevelations 20:4-5
This was a promise to the Churches, He that overcomes shall not be hurt by the second death, (because these will be in the First resurrection)\t\t\t\tRevelations 2:11
He that overcomes and keepeth my works until the end I will give power over the nations and he will rule the nations with a rod of iron.\t\t\t\t\t\tRevelations 2:26-27

He that overcomes shall be clothed in white raiment and Jesus will not blot out his name from the book of life \t\t\t\t\t\t\t\t\tRevelations 2:5
Satan is bound for a 1000 years so that He cannot deceive the nations that are left Revelations 20:1-3

At the end of the 1000 years Satan will be released, will go out to deceive the nations to come against the saints, but fire will come down from God in Heaven and will devour them, and the devil will be cast into the lake of fire\t\t\t\tRevelations 20:7-10
Then the white throne judgement begins where all of the dead that are in the sea and the earth are raised and are judged for their works, whoever does not have their name written in the Book of Life is cast into the lake of fire as well as death and Hell, this being cast into the Lake of Fire is called the second death.\t\t\t\t\tRevelations 20:11-15

To summarise all of the above in a simple way we can say that Jesus died for our sins, he arose from the grave on the third day in a new immortal body, He was seen by many. The Resurrection is true and when Jesus comes again all of those in Christ will be raised and changed into their new immortal body. This Resurrection will be called the resurrection of the Just.
There will be events before Christ returns that are happening on this earth that are causing distress for those unaware of Gods plan.

There will be an event that takes place in Jerusalem that is called an abomination and it will be caused by the person known as the Beast, the Son of Perdition, the Antichrist, this person will only be given power by God for 42 months and this beast uses the power of Satan, at the time of this abomination there will be a time of tribulation that has never been before in history and will never be again after, the Holy city of Jerusalem will be trampled by the Gentiles for this 3 ½ year period .

There will be 2 witnesses that are sent by God and are given power at the same time for the same period; these 2 witnesses will bring torment, plagues, and death to unbelievers and also no rain during this period.

There is a battle that is taking place between Satan and God, the Beast states that He is God, and torments the saints, at the end of the ministry of the 2 witnesses they are killed by the Beast and the people that were tormented by the two witnesses celebrate their death and will not allow their bodies to be buried, after 3 ½ days the 2 witnesses come back to life and are called to heaven.
Just after them ascending to Heaven at that same hour there is an earthquake in Jerusalem and 1/10 of the city falls and 7000 men die, not long after their ascension the last of the 7 trumpets sounds and it says that the Kingdoms become Christs and the saints are rewarded.
Paul warns the believers that the coming of Jesus and our gathering together to Him will not happen until an apostasy takes place and this same Son of Perdition is revealed, at present no one knows who the son of perdition is and when Jesus comes He will destroy the Son of Perdition.

At the end of the tribulation there will be signs in heaven, in the Sun, in the moon and the stars will be falling from heaven before the coming of Christ , Jesus says to us who are alive at that time that when we see these things starting to happen that we should look up as our redemption is drawing near.
Jesus says that when He comes He will be coming in the clouds, He will be shining in the heavens from the east to the west like the shining sun, He will give a shout with the voice of an archangel, there will be a loud awakening trumpet sound and this trumpet is called the Last Trumpet, He will send His angels to gather to himself all of the elect from the heavens and the earth, when this trumpet sounds the dead in Christ will arise first in their new immortal body and we who are alive will also have our body changed, this changing of our bodies from mortal to immortal happens in the twinkling of an eye. We who are alive at that time will then be caught up into the clouds with those that are resurrected from the dead.
This being caught up to meet them in the clouds is called the rapture, it takes place after the dead are raised and our bodies are changed.

Jesus stated that He will raise up those that God has given to Him on the Last day, this happens at the Last trumpet call, there are 2 Resurrections spoken of in Old Testament and New Testament, they are the Resurrection of the Just also known as the Resurrection of Life also known as the Resurrection of Everlasting Life and then there is the second Resurrection known as the Resurrection of the unjust also known as the Resurrection of damnation and also Known as the resurrection of everlasting contempt.
These two Resurrections are placed approximately 1000 years apart, the Resurrection of the Just is first, those who are in this First Resurrection of Life do not have to fear the judgement that takes place at the second resurrection, those in the second resurrection of the unjust that do not have their names written in the Book of Life are cast into the lake of fire with the Beast, the false prophet and death and hades.
The reason why the First resurrection is called the resurrection of the Just is because we that are in that Resurrection are just, not because of our own righteousness but because we have accepted the Righteousness of Christ and have been cleansed and made Holy by His Blood, we are new creations in Christ Jesus, he is our mediator and He is our Righteousness.

This theory is massivly flawed.

The greatest event about to happen is the gathering of the bride.

You need to rethink the serious omissions and impossibilities your theory espouses.

1)there can be no rapture at the end of the GT.(AC has killed all the saints.
2) you forgot about the wine we drink in heaven with Jesus
3) you forget about the mansions he Prepared for us IN HEAVEN
4) you need to read rev 19.We are already in heaven during the GT.(hint;bride is now WIFE)
5) You do not realize the "number no man can number" (rev 7) is the same group you misconstrue as 1st resurrection of rev 20.

Please try not to go into a a thesis teaching from Adam to the lake of fire to answer members

Thanks PSALM1 for your response

The Book of Revelations describes in detail and even shows where Jesus Comes and it is clearly in 19 and 20, it even shows the 1st Resurrection, as to the being caught up this does not happen until the Resurrection takes place, there is no being caught up without the resurrection first.

There is no where in scripture that states that those seen in heaven have been given their new immortal bodies.

Jesus brings with Him those that have died, it does not say that he brings with him those that have resurrected in their new bodies.

Paul even states that Jesus will not come and will not gather us to Himself until both the apostasy AND the revealing of the son of perdition happens.

So clearly Jesus is coming at a time during the apostasy and also the revealing of the Antichrist, also Jesus destroys this Antichrist at His coming.

In regards to the Book of Revelation and the Antichrist, the mark of the beast etc and also Matthew and End Times, it is so very important to be aware of the following.

The Bible is mainly middle eastern focused and by that I mean that it began in the garden of Eden out of which flows the rivers in the middle east.

Most of the events take place in the middle east and especially Jerusalem.

Jesus was born in Bethlehem, also the bible ends with Christ returning to Jerusalem and later a New Heaven and Earth and a New Jerusalem.

In regards to endtimes events most of the prophecies relate to events and places surrounding Israel.

Daniel speaks very clearly of the 4 kingdoms and especially the kingdom of the Antichrist.

Daniel states that King Nebuchadnezar ruled the whole earth, this is true but he only ruled the earth where his kingdom existed, many other countries were not under his rule.

It will be the same for the Antichrist, He will sit in the temple in Jerusalem and say that he is God.

Jesus even stated that the antichrist will cause the abomination of desolation in Israel

The same with Other kingdoms such as media Persia, alexander the great, and Rome, they only ruled the earth that consisted of their kingdom boundaries.

It is the same with the Antichrist and His Kingdom, it is a kingdom that consists in the middle east as Daniel states.

All 4 kingdoms cover roughly the same area

Most of the prophecies relating to this Antichrist are to be fulfilled in the Middle East, even the Coming of Jesus to destroy the Antichrist.

The rest of the world will go on just as it does today, there is much war in the Middle east today but other countries go on.

As to the mark of the beast etc all of this also happens in the middle east, even the whore city that is destroyed by the antichrist and the 10 kings that rule for a short period.

Not all will receive the mark of the beast just as much as not all Christians world wide are not killed by the antichrist.

It says in Revelations that when Jesus returns He will rule the nations with a rod of iron.

These nations must exist after the antichrist is killed so there must also be people that have not received the mark of the beast, otherwise what nations will Jesus and His saints rule.

The Antichrist/ son of Perdition is clearly described as operating and living in the middle east, he comes from the northern kingdom.

Countries today are effected slightly by middle eastern events but are still ruled by their own leaders.

Please consider the above.

Also who do you say the nations are that Jesus and his saints rule for a 1000 years on earth?

"There is no where in scripture that states that those seen in heaven have been given their new immortal bodies."

I already showed you their is no possible way a post rapture can happen.It is impossible.The AC kills ALL,emphatically ALL who refuse the mark.It even says every human being on the planet.

If the redeemed in heaven have not received their immortal bodies what are they doing wearing robes?
How are they drinking wine?
How did the marriage get consummated and the bride is now the wife in rev 19?
How are the elders wearing crowns on their heads?
How are they riding horses?
How are they holding harps?(the 144k you say are not in heaven but clearly are)
Disembodied spirits can not do these things.

Why does postrib leave out the heavenly scene,and all that happens in heaven?

"The Book of Revelations describes in detail and even shows where Jesus Comes and it is clearly in 19 and 20, it even shows the 1st Resurrection, as to the being caught up this does not happen until the Resurrection takes place, there is no being caught up without the resurrection first."

I showed you rev 20 is referring to the exact same group as rev 7.

Further,Jesus is part of the 1st res.(plus the OT saints resurrected)

Hint; the clue is in the harvest.(get it?harvest?)

Harvest is 3 part
1)firstfruits>>>>pointing to Jesus (plus ot saints)
2)harvest>>>>>pointing to the rapture,and the dead in Christ
3)gleaning>>>>>>>>pointing to the harvested straglers during the GT
This is ALL the 1st resurrection.
This is WHY it says "blessed are they which die from this point foreward"
This is why and how you missed that the 144k died and are in heaven DURING THE GT.
This is why the times of the gentiles HAD to be finished at the beginning of the GT.
This is WHY the multitude in heaven is "a number no man can count"
This omission by postrib is so glaring,and out of harmony,that it PROVES emphatically that postrib is made up by poorly thought out processes.
Postrib ,basically,baked a cake with no flour.OOOPS
Really was poorly thought out,right from the beginning.
All that effort you are putting in to making the harvest fit after the GT falls short.It does not even remotely fit.

In fact even the OT saints were part of the 1st resurrection.

But yes,we agree Jesus returns AFTER the GT.We are not disputing that.He returns with his bride which is now his WIFE.
So even the marriage supper is over.
Remember spiritual law.
The last is first.
The first miracle was water into wine.
The last order is unsurprisingly the bride becomes the wife.
(or.....wine at the marriage supper)
Beginningending....one in the same
Marriage scene/wine marriage scene/wine

Do you see the utter impossibility of postrib????

Major,major fail is to omit the Bride/groom dimension.
This is where postrib completely,and totally becomes an impossibility

Hello Psalm1

I appreciate your honesty and enjoy your feedback

You bring up some interesting points of discussion, you asked the question how can those in heaven experience all of the physical elements without their New immortal bodies as you said they are spirits.

John was in the spirit when he was shown the book of revelation, he was in the spirit when he was taken up to heaven, in this state of being in the spirit he saw, heard, talked, wept, tasted sweetness of a book then bitterness in his stomach, he was given a book, he was given a reed to measure the temple, he wondered, he experienced awe, he saw things in heaven and on earth, all while in the spirit.

In Luke we have the parable of paradise and hell and are given clear emotions as follows, eyes that look up, feeling of torment, seeing eyes, hearing, talking, fingers, tongue, heat, comfort, and pray

So I do think it is possible to experience all while not in the Resurrected immortal body

Scripture does say that Jesus and only Jesus was the Firstfruit of the Resurrection and that the Resurrection of all men in Christ will be afterward at His coming.

In Revelation 20 it speaks of the 1st Resurrection of a resurrection where they live and reign for a 1000 yr with Jesus, that being the case this Resurrection is something that happens at one time in a twinkling of an eye because it says they live and reign for a 1000 years, it does not say that they lived and reign for 1000 and 7 years.

Also as I have already said in the Old Testament there are many references to the whole earth where in actual fact it is referring to a kingdom with boundaries only

Daniel 2:10 the chaldeans told the king that there was no one on the whole earth that could interpret the dream, did they really travel the whole earth to find out or was it a kingdom.

Daniel 2:38 it says that Greece ruled the whole earth, did Greece really rule the whole earth? of course not it was a kingdom

Daniel 4:1 states that the king was the king of all peoples, nations and languages that dwell in all of the earth/?? this of course is only referring to the earth that the Babylonian kingdom governed

That being the case the 4th Beast, the antichrist Kingdom will also be ruling a kingdom, not a whole global earth, the Antichrist will physically be in the middle eastern kingdom, the plagues etc will be mainly in that area as this is the judgement taking place because of the many servants of God whose blood has been shed in that area

Can you provide a verse that says that the old testament saints were resurrected in the ist resurrection if the 1st Resurrection has not happened yet.

If that was the case then it would be saying that they lived and reigned with Christ for 3000 years approx.

Where in scripture does it say that anybody has been raised in an immortal body with Jesus, Paul said that Jesus was the only one, paul said that Jesus was the firstfruit.

Where also does it say that the marriage of the lamb is over ??

What it does say is that the bride has made herself ready and that the marriage is come which means it is about to start and the following verses show the Coming of Jesus for the 1st resurrection

Hi budge!
I also enjoy speaking to you IMMENSELY!!!
This subject is so,so fascinating.

"Also as I have already said in the Old Testament there are many references to the whole earth where in actual fact it is referring to a kingdom with boundaries only"

The bible is written under the inspiration of the HS.
This logic assumes the Lord does not know as much as us.

"In Luke we have the parable of paradise and hell and are given clear emotions as follows, eyes that look up, feeling of torment, seeing eyes, hearing, talking, fingers, tongue, heat, comfort, and pray"
that was not a parable.It was real.

"So I do think it is possible to experience all while not in the Resurrected immortal body"
Can you show me anything to confirm this?

"Where also does it say that the marriage of the lamb is over ??"
It says in rev 19 the bride has become the wife.
There are maybe 20 or so things that pint to the marrige/bride/groom/believers in heaven,with a wedding.

Using your methods of testing doctrine ( i do not believe this a viable method) which you use (proving a negative)
show me where it specifically says different.Show me where anyone was corrected.(in the word)

"Can you provide a verse that says that the old testament saints were resurrected in the ist resurrection if the 1st Resurrection has not happened yet."

Jesus decended,it says he took captivity captive.It says the dead were resurrected and were seen walking the streets.
Can look up later,too busy right now.

Thanks again for your responses PSALM1

I am slowly trying to catch up and address one by one some things that you have said

You said on your post the following

I already showed you their is no possible way a post rapture can happen.It is impossible.The AC kills ALL,emphatically ALL who refuse the mark.It even says every human being on the planet.

My Budgie reply
I looked this up in scripture and could not find what you said anywhere, I could not find where it says that the AC kills ALL who refuse the mark in the whole planet, a little bit of an overstatement.

But there is one very important thing I would like to bring out in this discussion and that is as follows

Jesus said the following

Mat 24:6 And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet.
Mat 24:7 For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places.
Mat 24:8 All these are the beginning of sorrows.

These are the beginning of sorrows and they are in diverse places as we see today

BUT as to the Tribulation that will be Jesus clearly talks about when but also where, many overlook this fact and assume it means the whole world, lets look at what Jesus says

Mat 24:15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:)
Mat 24:16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:
Mat 24:17 Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house:
Mat 24:18 Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes.
Mat 24:19 And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days!
Mat 24:20 But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day:
Mat 24:21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

Jesus is talking about the abomination in Jerusalem and saying let those in Judea flee.

He does not say let those in America flee, or let those in England flee, or let those in Australia flee.

That is because the Antichrist is in middle east.

Babylon did not rule the whole world, Greece did not rule the whole world, media Persia did not rule the whole world and neither did Rome, only their kingdom area.

It is exactly the same with the Antichrist, Daniel, Matthew, Joel, Revelations, Thessalonians all say very clearly that these events of rule by the antichrist and the tribulation are happening in and around the area of Jerusalem.

Jesus gave clear instructions for those in Judea to flee because of the Tribulation to come, Jesus again in Revelations asks those believers living in the whore city to leave as He is about to bring judgement to that city.

We must never forget that Jesus in His word has so clearly spoken of the places, names of cities and regions that the Antichrist rules and makes war.

Daniel, Joel, Revelations and Matthew as well as Thessalonians and many other books are very specific about where this kingdom is and what countries are involved.

No America, no England no Australia, No New Zealand, no other islands mentioned.

It is important to keep in context with what scriptures say about where this Tribulation is, there is a difference.

If Antichrist destroys all who do not have the mark and Jesus destroys all who have the mark then who is left ??

It says Jesus will rule the nations from the four quarters of the earth for a 1000 years

How can He Rule nations if there is no one left in existence if the above is true.

Hello Bearmaster
Good to hear from you again, I as well as many others don't believe every thing that people say as we are all learning.

But I do agree with much of Walid Shoebat, as well as Joel Richardson when it come to who and where this antichrist spirit and person starts.

Both Walid and Joel bring out some very truthful and scriptural points regarding the antichrist and the teachings of the antichrist

Joel has brought out a 4 dvd set called the return is near and I can truly recommend this dvd set to all believers

I could not find any fault with the set and Joel brings out some very true points that makes a lot of sense scripturally as well as logically.

For far to long the Catholic believers have been portrayed as evil and wicked people and the Islamic focus makes much more sense and also aligns with prophecy

especially the antichrist spirit that declares that they deny the father and the son

I can guarantee that there is no perfect church on this earth today, they have committed just as much wickedness in the name of Christ as Israel did with God.

Homosexuality, fornication, divorce, legal disputes, adultery and much more exists in the church today as in the world

God have mercy on us.

Youtube has some good videos by Joel Richardson as well as Walid Shoebat

Joel Richardson website Joels Trumpet is worth looking at, much interesting and thought provoking stuff

There is a good series of videos that Joel did in a series in a church, on you tube

Hello PSALM1

I am interested to know

Do you see the book of revelations as being totally chronological, and if so why

or

do you see the book of revelations being overlapping and why

As to the above there is no rush to reply

I would appreciate an insight on how you see the seals, trumpets and bowls and any key points among them

Hi Budgie and Psalm1

I have some questions to budgie. Do you believe that "The Great Tribulation " will only be in Isreal and countries surounded by her? Or will it affect the whole world including the Americas, UK, Australia, exc? And can you please explain?

You said,

"BUT as to the Tribulation that will be Jesus clearly talks about when but also where, many overlook this fact and assume it means the whole world, lets look at what Jesus says

Mat 24:15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:)
Mat 24:16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:
Mat 24:17 Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house:
Mat 24:18 Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes.
Mat 24:19 And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days!
Mat 24:20 But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day:
Mat 24:21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

Jesus is talking about the abomination in Jerusalem and saying let those in Judea flee."

I agree that Mat 24:15-21 is talking directly to Israel. Jesus was warning them and majority were Jews who were listening.

You said,
"That is because the Antichrist is in middle east.

Babylon did not rule the whole world, Greece did not rule the whole world, media Persia did not rule the whole world and neither did Rome, only their kingdom area."

This is true but I thought about them having the power to rule the whole world.

Also, if the great tribulation only going to happen in Israel and the countries around her, then why does other scriptures like in Rev 13:12 says "causeth the earth and them which dwell therein" to worship the beast or not they will be killed?

I know its kind of off topic but just wanted to be more clear about what you've said.

Thank you and God Bless
David C.

The strength in the pretrib rapture;

1 Thessalonians 4:17-18 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

My comfort, my spirit, my rapture, my new born again life by the Christ Spirit in me. Caught up together now in spirit and will be raptured in body and soul.

1 Corinthians 1:30 But of Him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption:

Who is wise? Who is righteousness? Who is sanctified? Who is redeemed?

Those God has made to be birthed in Christ.

Colossians 1:25-29 Whereof I am made a minister, according to the dispensation of God which is given to me for you, to fulfil the word of God; Even the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints: To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory: Whom we preach, warning every man, and teaching every man in all wisdom; that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus: Whereunto I also labour, striving according to his working, which worketh in me mightily.

We are His own, even sons and daughters of God our Father in Christ Jesus who is not Spirit of my spirit and will be Flesh of my glorified new body in raptured resurrection and new life in Him.

Galatians 2:20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.

This is my comfort; Amen

In Christ: Phillip

Hello David01-72

You have asked some questions regarding end times

I certainly do not have all of the answers and certainly do not know all truth, but with what I do have and from what I have learned along this journey I will endeavour to answer.

Your question

Hi Budgie and Psalm1

I have some questions to budgie. Do you believe that "The Great Tribulation " will only be in Isreal and countries surounded by her? Or will it affect the whole world including the Americas, UK, Australia, exc? And can you please explain?

My reply'

From my studies in the Old Testament books as well as New Testament regarding end times one thing that I have seen is that many of the prophecies relate to Jerusalem and the surrounding countries or nations.

Daniel, Joel, Thessalonians, Matthew, Revelations, Zechariah, Isaiah and more speak of the events, persons and countries where these events take place.

Genesis begins in the area surrounding Jerusalem and Revelations ends in Jerusalem and the areas surrounding Jerusalem.

Many of the End Time events are spoken of as happening in these same areas.

From what is shown in the Prophetic books much is focused in the above areas.

Jesus states that when you see the abomination of desolation take place in Jerusalem then those in Judea should flee for then there will be Tribulation such as that has never been seen before or ever seen again after.

For this reason as well as what is shown in Thessalonians and Revelations I do believe that the majority of that will take place in the areas surrounding Jerusalem.

But I do also believe that there will be some form of suffering in all of the world for those in Christ as well as those that live on the earth.

One only has to look at history as to events that have happened in Jerusalem as well as the conflict that is happening with the Islamic nations surrounding Jerusalem.

John said that the spirit of the Antichrist is to deny the Father and the Son and that is exactly what Islam declares.

On the inside of the dome of the rock is written God has no Son.

I do love Muslims just as much as I do others in the world and do pray and hope that they will turn to the One True God and worship Jesus Christ the one and only saviour.

After studying Daniel and looking at the location of the Kingdoms in all of Daniel one can see that when it says the whole earth sometimes this refers only to the Kingdom of that ruling Authority on Earth.

An example of this is Daniel said that the Kingdom of Greece ruled the whole earth.
But looking at History one can see that the kingdom of Greece did not encompass the whole earth,and ceratainly did not rule the whole earth, there are many other areas in scripture where we see the same.

For this reason I am cautious with those statements, I will not be dogmatic but one thing I have learned is that it can have two meanings.

It can mean an area on earth and it can also mean the whole earth.

One thing I do know is that when Jesus comes He will rule the whole Earth and it will be from the Centre of the Earth Jerusalem.

Because there are nations on earth that remain after Christ returns , as it does say that He will rule the Nations with a Rod of Iron with the saints, there has to be many people left on earth that have not worshipped the Beast or received the Mark of its name, that being the case there has to also be Christians also alive on the Earth at His Glorious Coming as Paul refers to these believers that are alive that they will have their bodies changed when the dead are raised.

I will try and answer more as we go along.

Like I said I will not be dogmatic and say that the Earth means the Whole world and I also will not say that the earth only means part of the earth such as a kingdom in Daniel.

I allow for freedom in this area.

The Book of Revelations does speak a lot of the areas surrounding Jerusalem, Satan when He is thrown to earth uses the Antichrist as his means of power and this antichrist reigns in this region.

The City called the whore that is destroyed by the 10 kings or kingdoms is also in this region.

Some say it is Babylon (Iraq) some say Saudia Arabia

Saudia Arabia certainly fits the descriptions at present because of its wealth and prosperity.

I hope this has answered some of your question in a little way.

Joel Richardson (the return is near) 4 dvd set is worth looking at VERY WELL PRESENTED

Also, if the great tribulation only going to happen in Israel and the countries around her, then why does other scriptures like in Rev 13:12 says "causeth the earth and them which dwell therein" to worship the beast or not they will be killed? "

Several dynamics here
Remember,the church is raptured immediately and those left behind only last a few weeks or months before ALL believers are beheaded.
Look at the gathering of the Jews to one location,Israel.
Apparently this makes things easier as far as the intensity of the wrath.At this point the times of the gentiles is finished(church dealt w/first then the Jews)
But the world is a small place.The GT and AC's rule will be world wide.
The entire church IS GATHERED.(graves,alive and remain,the left behind later beheaded,then the 2 witnesses,followed by the 144k)
Several raptures.
purpose=wedding supper

double post

Bear I agree.

I would recommend every one to get a small booklet that I have : Four Views of the End Times by Rose Publishing :

http://www.rose-publishing.com/Four-Views-Of-The-End-Times-Pamphlet-P225.aspx,

it is a none biased booklet that gives a good little summery of four common views of eschatology: Historical Premillennialism, Amillennialism ,Postmillennialism ,Dispensational Premillennialism.
I have found the booklet to not show any favortism to any one of the four views but just to present facts about each view.
In it they agree that dispensational premillennialism first emerged in the 1800s amoung the Plymouth Brethren (Darby)

I can recommend also an interesting Book on all views by Kevin J Conner called The Christian Millennium

A well presented Book that gives an insight

Also look at mysouthland.com, davidpawson.org and joelstrumpet by joel richardson

We know one thing for sure and that is We will be raised at the Last Trumpet, Jesus said He will raise us at the Last Day, Jesus was the First to be Raised in the Immortal body and we all will be raised in the same body at His Coming

There is not one verse that states that Jesus is Coming before the Tribulation, Jesus told us when He is Coming and He said DO NOT BE DECIEVED
Jesus said He was Coming after the Tribulation, Jesus does not say anywhere that He is Coming before the Tribulation

Quote: "Jesus said He was Coming after the Tribulation, Jesus does not say anywhere that He is Coming before the Tribulation."

Absolutely- and since the great tribulation has already happened he could be coming at any second. Be ready!

I have a question for you

Of the tribulation has already happened then who is the antichrist
What is the 666 mark of the beast
Who is the false prophet
Where and who are the two witnesses
What were the locusts
Where are the rivers and oceans poisoned
What is the great city destroyed
When was the sun,moon darkened
When did the stars fall from heaven
Where are the 144000
Where and who are the 10 kings that reign with the antichrist that destroyed the harlot

I will be ready each day
Serving Jesus and encouraging others to trust even to death
My life can end today

Simple answer: apocalyptic language. Highly symbolic language. Rev talks repeatedly of things that must soon come to pass.

Expand your horizons a little.

Jesus is coming again pretty much everything else has already happened. No there aren't really locusts that look like women. This is simply a symbolic description of demonic hordes that drove the Jews to insane antics in the siege of Jerusalem in 70 AD. Read josephus's history of that war. It is available on ccel. It will be an eye opening experience.

Thanks for your reply TMK

I have read Josephus' history and am aware of those historic events

Those Historic events which were real did not however fulfil any of the list of questions that I had asked

There is always a reality to the symbolic

It states quite clearly that there is an Antichrist, false prophet, 2 witnesses, all of the realities of the Great Tribulation which when they happen will be something that has never been before or will ever happen again after.

It says that Jesus will destroy this Antichrist and False Prophet at His Coming

Again who is this Antichrist person and the False Prophet if you can say that Jesus can come at any moment

Also when did the 2 witnesses die and when were they dead in the streets for 3 1/2 days and then Resurrected as these are alive during the reign of the Antichrist

By what you are saying there will never be any Tribulation on earth that was greater than 70 AD.

You said that the Locusts drove the Jews to insane antics in 70 AD but the word says the following

Rev 9:1 And the fifth angel sounded, and I saw a star fall from heaven unto the earth: and to him was given the key of the bottomless pit.
Rev 9:2 And he opened the bottomless pit; and there arose a smoke out of the pit, as the smoke of a great furnace; and the sun and the air were darkened by reason of the smoke of the pit.
Rev 9:3 And there came out of the smoke locusts upon the earth: and unto them was given power, as the scorpions of the earth have power.
Rev 9:4 And it was commanded them that they should not hurt the grass of the earth, neither any green thing, neither any tree; but only those men which have not the seal of God in their foreheads.
Rev 9:5 And to them it was given that they should not kill them, but that they should be tormented five months: and their torment was as the torment of a scorpion, when he striketh a man.

These locusts harm those that do not have the seal of God, for 5 months, it does not say Jews
Those that do not have seal of God are those that do not trust in God

Also if the Locusts came in 70 AD at the 5th Trumpet as you say then the effects of first 4 trumpets also would have been recorded in History as follows
Hail and fire cast to earth and 1/3 trees and grass burned up
1/3 part of sea struck
1/3 sea life and 1/3 ships destroyed
1/3 rivers and fountains poisoned
1/3 sun moon and stars darkened and 1/3 day and night did not shine

These events surely have not happened or recorded in history as happening

I myself am one that looks at where the events line up to what the scripture says.

I can see no Antichrist here at present and no 2 witnesses in Jerusalem

I would appreciate if you can answer the questions that I had asked in the earlier post as you said they had already been fulfilled.

I cannot answer as you wish because I do not believe your list contains a literal fulfillment.

If you go on the equip.org website and do a search on the eschatology items available there you will see how he addresses at least some of your questions.

Steve Gregg does as well at thenarrowpath.com in his "When will these things be" eschatology lectures and his Revelation lectures.

Steve Gregg also has a book entitled "Revelation: Four Views" which lays out each major view of Rev side by side in a column format.

I realize that practically every if not every evangelical church teaches a literal application of Revelation except even they disagree with you and teach a pre-trib rapture. You need to go elsewhere to get exposed to different takes on the "end times" scriptures.

I was a die-hard pre-tribber not terribly long ago and taught it with my handy dandy chart timelines etc. Of course I never knew or heard anything different in any church I attended or any sermon I heard on the radio. And that is because the preachers of those sermons probably never learned or heard anything different either. In fact I did not even KNOW there were other views on the matter out there until a few years back. To me, that is a crying shame.

One quick question for you:

Why do you not take the words "soon" or "quickly" in Revelation literally, other than because it does not fit into your paradigm? Why are you willing to take long haired locusts literally but not Jesus's words "soon" or "quickly?"

Quote: """It says that Jesus will destroy this Antichrist and False Prophet at His Coming

Again who is this Antichrist person and the False Prophet if you can say that Jesus can come at any moment."""

There is a difference in Christ coming for His Bride, the Body of Christ, His Church, taking Her to His Fathers House being with Her forever and; coming to this earth to put away the serpent the devil for 1000 years and Jesus reigning with His saints for that 1000 years on this earth.

John 14:1-4 Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me. In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also. And whither I go ye know, and the way ye know.

He departs in order to "prepare a place for us." This meets another phase of trouble. Our wills conflict with the will of God because we never feel at home totally suited in our surroundings on earth. Think how much is necessary for perfect comfort. There must be a suitable physique, agreeable in all the particulars of size, beauty, and health. There must be perfectly-fitting clothes; a collar too tight, a boot too small breaks one's comfort. Then our house must be in everything complete; nay, it must be an elastic house, expanding or shrinking to our wants at different times. When the residence is complete, there is the absence of the beloved or the presence of an unpleasant neighborhood. It is not an unamiable discontentedness in human nature which makes us dissatisfied or unsatisfied: it is the inability of this present world, with all its resources, to fill the soul; and this argues the soul's greatness. Jesus says, "I go to prepare a place for you." He knows what is in us and what we need about us. He is putting all His resources to the work of fitting up for us mansions in the spiritual world. Our place will be complete. How that abates our troubles! There shall be nothing wanting in the place when Jesus pronounces it ready.

"Ready?" Then when it is ready we must go to it. There is to be a removal. But still there is something to try one in any change of residence, but Christ says, "I will come for you and take you," and that "unto Myself." (C. F. Deems, LL. D.)

1 Thessalonians 4:16-18 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

A son waiting for The Son to take me to mine and His Fathers House:

Phillip

Philip wrote:

"Jesus says, "I go to prepare a place for you." He knows what is in us and what we need about us. He is putting all His resources to the work of fitting up for us mansions in the spiritual world. Our place will be complete. How that abates our troubles! There shall be nothing wanting in the place when Jesus pronounces it ready."
_________________________

Jesus is not building us mansions in heaven, even though He was a carpenter. Mansions is an absolute horrible translation of that verse which really means "rooms" or "dwelling places."

What Jesus is building for us is His church-- out of living stones. God dwells in His people.

Check this video out which provides a solid but alternative teaching of the passage from John 14. I am interested in what weaknesses you see in his argument.

http://youtu.be/qa75cIdF3V0

Strong's Greek Dictionary
3438. μονη mone
Search for G3438 in KJVSL
μονη mone mon-ay'
from 3306; a staying, i.e. residence (the act or the place):””abode, mansion.

Same word in John 14:23 Anywhere Jesus is, there is our mansion. Jesus does not need a carpenters tools to build anything, He is God and only need speak and it is.

If He was not coming to take us to our residence in His Father's House, "He would have told us so".

Jesus and The Father Dwell in me and I in them, They are my mansion, Plus the Holy Spirit dwells in me forever. What is the dwelling place of God? In the believer. There is a vast place called God's House a Physical place, The New Jerusalem come down from Heaven. How great a place God's House must be, It cannot compare to the greatest mansion of man on this earth. The only thing I must have to enter Gods mansion is a new body not made with flesh and blood, but like Jesus Christ, the faith of Jesus Christ in me places me there. My spirit and soul already dwell in this mansion. Spirit and soul already are seated in the Heavens in Christ.

In Christ: Phillip

I hear you, Philip.

I have listened to the Youtube lecture, and agree with him, as far as he goes. But he is only speaking of the Fathers house of the old testament and of the present, ie the church, and this is all true.

But the John 14 passage speaks of Christ's coming for his precious ones, and receiving them to Himself. It is eternal truth, not to be just spiritualised and applied to this present age.

So, I still prefer "mansions"

David

In scripture, the Father's house is always referencing the temple. Heaven is never called the house of God anywhere else in scripture. A temple could not have mansions, but it could have rooms or dwelling places.

So, in John 14, the house being referenced is a temple- the temple made out of living stones- i.e. believers. WE are the dwelling places, as Jesus references in 14:23.

I do not have a dog in this fight (or in this discussion) and this topic intrigued me since I've never had an opinion of it one way or the other, so looked it up at the Blue Letter Bible website!

There are only two instances of "mansions" in the Bible and I am copying what is down in Strongs, ""There is nothing in the word to indicate separate compartments in heaven; neither does it suggest temporary resting-places on the road."" I'm not going to get hung up on a word because I liked the 3rd explanation under Bible usage: ""metaph. of the God the Holy Spirit indwelling believers."" Yes, I like that indwelling!!! :)

John 14:2 In my Father's house are many mansions: (G3438) if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.

John 14:23 Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode (G3438) with him.

Outline of Biblical Usage
I. a staying, abiding, dwelling, abode
II. to make an (one's) abode
III. metaph. of the God the Holy Spirit indwelling believers

1 Strong's Number: g3438 Greek: mone
Mansions:
primarily "a staying, abiding" (akin to meno, "to abide"), denotes an "abode" (Eng., "manor," "manse," etc.), translated "mansions" in Jhn 14:2; "abode" in Jhn 14:23. There is nothing in the word to indicate separate compartments in heaven; neither does it suggest temporary resting-places on the road.

http://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?Strongs=G3438&t=KJV

God bless,
Lisa

Thanks TMK for your reply and in answering your question that you have asked me
Your question to me was why do I not take the words soon or quickly literally in Revelation

My reply is I do and do so believe Gods answer, but it does not say it could happen today, it does not say that it can happen at any moment

The words that Jesus and God spoke are now nearly 2000 years old so it could not mean at any moment.

Jesus and God said
Rev 1:3 Blessed is he that readeth, and they that hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written therein: for the time is at hand.

It is the whole book that has been given to the Church, it is not given to unbelievers, we are to keep the words, the whole words, for the time is at hand

Gods timing is very different to ours, He wills that none should perish, it is the Church of God that he is waiting for.

God promised
Rev 1:7 Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.

At the end of Revelations what does God say

Rev_22:7 Behold, I come quickly: blessed is he that keepeth the sayings of the prophecy of this book.
Rev_22:12 And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.
Rev_22:20 He which testifieth these things saith, Surely I come quickly. Amen. Even so, come, Lord Jesus.

Jesus is coming quickly and blessed is He that keepeth the sayings of the whole book of Revelations not just the first 4 chapters

God has clearly shown us what will take place before the first resurrection, before Christ Comes and every eye sees Him

Hello again TMK
You said that my list that was from the book of revelations cannot be answered as they do not have a literal fulfilment, thanks for your honest reply

I have another question which maybe you can answer
Jesus referred to the Book of Daniel as to what will take place before the Great Tribulation

Daniel expounds greatly on the Person of the Antichrist describing where he is from, what he does, how he attacks the saints of God, it speaks of literal places.

It also says that when Jesus comes He will destroy this person who will be alive at His Coming.

If as you say the Great Tribulation is already fulfilled, then this person who is the Antichrist but still be alive for Jesus to destroy him.

Is Daniel to be literally fulfilled as much of Daniel was literally fulfilled by Medes. Persians, Greeks??

Await your reply

hey Budgie-- I probably sound lazy but can you tell me exactly where in Daniel you are talking about?

Thanks!

Hello TMK
I certainly do not see you as lazy, I see you as hungry and seeking as we all are.

When you look at all of the visions and the interpretations in Daniel you see that they overlap and expand in more depth until the point of Christs return

They give a very clear picture of the Antichrist and blends perfectly with Revelations as well as other books

Read and write Daniel 2:40-44
Daniel 7:7-28
Daniel 8:8 - 18
Daniel 8:23-27
Daniel 10:14
Daniel 9:25-27
Daniel 11;21-12:13

Spend time reading and also praying and you will see a very clear image of the Antichrist and how this Antichrist is a person that is alive and working to deceive and destroy until Jesus Comes and Begins His reign as the King of David, as the King of Israel, as the King of Jew and Gentile, so many prophecies yet to be fulfilled as Jesus being the King of this Earth

Please see if you can watch Joel Richardson the Return is near series and some of his links on youtube
I honestly can say that it will encourage you
I have just placed some of the links on another thread
Joel also has free study guides available on his website
Joels Trumpet, but here they are again

http://www.joels-trumpet.com/

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3CpyJ3-3mBU
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=unMxmVUIMvA

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yURM70Ly-Us

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zySeZAz-Y7c

God Bless you TMK

Have been studying the book the coming of Messiah by Manuel Lacunza and it is very clearly seen that what lacunza is presenting is something that was not taught previously in the church
The doctrine before this time is only that of the church going through the tribulation until the second coming of Jesus
Irving translated this book into English
I am still trying to put it all together as lacunza constantly moves all over the place using different thoughts and interpretation
Many would be lost trying to stay with his thought pattern
He does however bring out some very good points in that the church has failed to learn from the failures of Israel and that the church had become neither hot not cold boasting in itself
He takes the warnings of Paul very strongly
Do not boast lest you be cut off of these olive tree
It is most certainly the book that began the Pre trib theory
It was a whole new interpretation never seen in the church
He went against the normal commentators

Pre-trib post-trib I worry not about either, I will stand on these scriptures. I am headed back into the clouds to meet The Lord in the air. This releases my mind from all the trib stuff. Pretty black and white here, even a two year old could relax after reading these scriptures. Why do we all try to complicate things so much?

1 Thessalonians 4:16-17

New International Version
For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first.

After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever.

Your question as to why do we bother
This is the reason why I bother
Jesus said to not be decieved about his coming
Do not be decieved with doctrines that are false and tickle the ear
Everything Jesus taught was to prepare us to surrender all and take up a cross of suffering
Which choice makes more sense
Trust in Jesus even if we are murdered because Jesus warned us
Or
Don't worry we will be taken out before the tribulation but you may still have your head cut off or may be burned alive or may be raped by many then stoned to death or watch your children hung to death because you won't deny Jesus
I know myself that I would rather encourage others to trust no matter what so that people will not be discouraged when trials come
Many today are being beheaded because they will not deny Jesus
Corrie ten boom was burdened by all of the above
Try telling a person a pre trib lie to those in China,north Korea Iran,Saudi Arabia and many other suffering countries where they are suffering and murdered every day
Do not be decieved by ear tickling fleshly teaching
Take up our Crosses for gods glory
And I am not boasting in my own strength
Help me Jesus

budgie...Your question as to why do we bother
This is the reason why I bother
Don't worry we will be taken out before the tribulation but you may still have your head cut off or may be burned alive or may be raped by many then stoned to death or watch your children hung to death because you won't deny Jesus.

And if I know all this info on the pretrib and trib stuff this will stop the above from happening? I don't care what happens to my earthly body, Like Jesus when he died, I will have a new one with no pain, no sighing, no crying, and no more pretrib or trib stuff to read.

I have just finished reading Lacunza's book " The Coming of Christ in glory and magesty", downloaded from the site indicated by Andrew.

I would highly recommend this, especially his teachings concerning Israel, Babylon and the future Davidic kingdom. As a christian who used to be a jew, he believes the OT prophesies of the second coming of Christ should be literally interpreted. His main emphasis is proving from scripture that there is a long length of time between Christ's second coming and the final judgement; ie. 1000 years.

As a Roman catholic, his writings on The Church are clearly biased by his own views, and would not be acceptable to most readers on this forum. He has a very enlightening and, to me, enjoyable exposition of Revelation 12, worth reading for itself. He divides his main points into "Phenomena" The Rev 12 section is Phenomenum number 8.

Budgie, I did not find his writing style so bad, once you get into it. I downloaded it to my Nook (like a kindle).

You wrote
"It is most certainly the book that began the Pre trib theory".
But there is no indication of this, instead His summary at the end indicates that he believed christians would go through the tribulation, not be raptured before.

Many have said on this forum that J N darby derived his teaching from Lacunza. He may have read and agreed with lacunzas views on the millenium, and he certainly would have agreed with Lacunzas literal approach to prophesy, but his understanding of a pre-tribulation rapture of the church came to him by revelation.

David

Short History of Pre-Trib Rapture Doctrine

by Jim Searcy

Most of us know people who believe in a pre-tribulation rapture. As a result, such are not building up their most holy faith to endure to the END of this Antichrist War on the Saints. Thinking one will be raptured BEFORE the antichrist war on the saints is NOT good preparation to endure to the END of such a war. The Lord made it explicit that IMMEDIATELY AFTER the Tribulation is when He sends His angels for His elect. Matt 24:29-31. Perhaps a short true history of who, how, and when the pre-tribulation rapture doctrines originated would be helpful for you to help those whom you know to be in denial or failing to prepare because of this Jesuit doctrine. Jesuit? Yes, two Jesuit priests laid the foundations of the pre-trib rapture doctrine, unknown in the history of the Church, prior to the Reformation.

At the time of the Reformation, the vast majority of Protestants were convinced that the Pope was the personification of the antichrist. Most today now understand the pope to be the second beast, the false prophet of the antichrist prince. However, at the time of the Reformation, it was universally believed by all Protestants, that the Roman Church was the Harlot Religion System of Revelation seventeen. Today there is still good cause to see the Roman Church as the religious component of Babylon, meaning confusion, in the antichrist war on the saints.

This understanding that the Roman Church is the Religious Babylon brought millions of believers out of the Roman Catholic religious system, during the Reformation. Understanding that the Roman Church is the religious component of the confusion of Babylon, in the antichrist war on the saints in these last days, will also bring millions from the bondage of the Roman Church to freedom in Christ.

Because of how many during the Reformation saw the Roman Church as the Babylon harlot of Religion, it became expedient for certain Roman theologians to turn the attention of the people away from the Papacy. Indeed the Jesuits were responsible for the origin of the pre- tribulation rapture doctrines. It was two Jesuit priests who rightly deserve the title as the founders of pre-tribulation rapture doctrines. These two Jesuits invented a counter-interpretation to that held unanimously by the Protestants. They taught that the revelation of the antichrist was at some far distant date. In the entire history of the Church prior to the writings of these two Jesuit priests all believed the eminent Resurrection, Rapture, and Return of the Lord was a single simultaneous event, happening in the twinkling of an eye, on the last day, at the last trump. When is the Last Day? When is the Last Trump?

It was a Jesuit priest named Ribera who, in the days of the Reformation, first taught the basic ideas of the pre-tribulation rapture. Just putting the revealing of the antichrist way off in the future was a very effective way of taking the heat off of the Papacy during the Reformation. Then another Jesuit priest named Emmanuel Lacunza, built on Ribera's teachings and wrote a book called The Coming of Messiah in Glory and Majesty. True to Jesuit style and stealth, Lacunza knew the Protestants were not going to widely receive a book written by a Jesuit priest. The Jesuit, Lacunza, therefore wrote his book under the assumed name of Rabbi Ben Ezra. This fictitious Rabbi Ben Ezra, was presented in Lacunza's book as a scholarly Jewish Rabbi who had accepted Christ as his Savior. By this ploy the Jesuit Lacunza was able to get his book to have a good reception in the Protestant world. No Protestants in the Reformation era would have allowed a copy of The Coming of Messiah in Glory and Majesty in their homes if they had any idea that the book was written by a Jesuit.

Because Lacunza presented the book as written by a scholarly Jewish Rabbi who had become a Christian believer in the Lord Jesus Christ, he knew the Protestants would love and receive his Jesuit book. The Jesuits certainly have not gotten less subtle, and it does not seem the Church has gotten more discerning. Lacunza's book, The Coming of Messiah in Glory and Majesty, was a very successful, elaborate forgery. In his book, Lacunza taught the new idea that Jesus returns TWICE, or TWO Second Comings. The Jesuit Lacunza was the first in all history to teach two second comings of the Lord Jesus Christ. Lacunza taught that at the first stage of His return He raptures His Church so they can escape the reign of the future antichrist. His book was first published in Spanish in the 1812.

Shortly after Lacunza's book was published, a Protestant leader in England by the name of Edward Irving discovered Lacunza's book. Edward Irving translated Lacunza's book into English in 1827. The Encyclopedia Britannica, volume 12, 1966 issue, pages 648-649, describe Edward Irving and the controversy over his teachings in Scotland and England in the early 1800's. He was excommunicated by the London presbytery, and in 1833 was condemned and deposed from the ministry of the Church of Scotland because of his teaching concerning "the sinfulness of Christ's humanity". He also began to teach a "rapture of the Church", after a young Scottish girl by the name of Margaret MacDonald went into a trance and described a vision in which she said she saw the Saints leaving the earth at the return of the Lord, before the tribulation. Her trance and vision took place in the spring of 1830, while living in Port Glasgow, Scotland. Her "revelation" was recorded in a book written by R. N. Norton and printed in London in 1861.

John Nelson Darby was a leader and prolific writer among the Plymouth Brethren. Darby was part of the Irvingite movement. He was strongly influenced by Irving, and Lucunza's book which Irving had translated into English, and particularly by the book by Norton, of the vision of Margret MacDonald. By 1850 John Darby had organized the Jesuit fraud of TWO second comings of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the pre- tribulation rapture fraud, into a system of prophetic teachings called dispensationalism.

In 1860's John Darby was put on the payroll of the British East India company. The British East India Company has historically been held by the Illuminati blood lines of European royalty, (Greek kings as Daniel would call them). John Darby was sent to America with the specific Illuminati goal of weakening the strong faith of American Christians. Darby's dispensationalism was sure to be successful in America in that purpose for which he was put on the Illuminati payroll.

Americans were and have been proven to be particularly easy to be taken by the Jesuit originated, non-scriptural, doctrines of pre-trib lala land. The reason is because of what is the make up of the people group known as Americans. Perhaps the best way of describing the American people group is one which came from a stock of hard working, risk taking, God fearing, people, who delight in making plans and take special delight in having their plans come together. Americans are good planners. As a people group they do not even want God messing up their plans, unless He would pouf them out in a fabled pre- trib rapture to heaven before anything bad would happen to otherwise mess up their plans.

In America in the 1860's Darby's dispensational TWO SECOND COMINGS dispensational interpretations met with wide open reception across the entire spectrum of American Protestant and biblical Christianity. A lawyer of very dubious character who had become a Congregationalist preacher, named C.I. Scofield came under the influence of Darby and the Plymouth Brethren. That brought the Scofield Reference bible and most know the history from that point certainly has led to the great apostasy, not the rapture, but the great falling away from The Faith.

For a good, short, clear verification of this history I would just recommend looking at the article title DISPENSATION which James L. Blevins wrote in the Holman Bible Dictionary. J. Preston Eby has also done some fine work on this subject. Perhaps the best and most comprehensive work on the subject of the history and background of pre-trib rapture doctrines has been done by Dave Macpherson. Dave Macpherson is the author of The Rapture Plot, The Incredible Cover Up, The Great Rapture Hoax, Unbelievable Pre-Trib Origin and Late Great Pre-Trib Rapture. All of Dave Macpherson's books are excellent, well written, and well researched. The best source of truth on the subject however, is the more sure word written in the KJV Holy Bible. The GJiGT book can also be a particularly helpful tool in regard to illustrating what the more sure word of God says in full context on the subject of the Great Tribulation. How the GJiGT book is organized makes it useful to quickly debunk any pre-trib supposed proof texts wrested from their context.

The Scofield Reference Bible was destined to have a tremendous impact upon the beliefs of many. There were three million copies published in the first 50 years. Through this Bible, Scofield carried the teaching of the TWO Second Comings and the two stage rapture to almost the whole of American Christianity. It is truly amazing when one finds that this TWO Second Comings, and a pre-tribulation rapture for the super duper saints, and three and a half years of hell on earth for the not so super duper saints, is NOT supported by a single verse of scripture in context rightly divided by the Holy Ghost. Astonishing, yet as Fly told Babe ”“ That is just the way things are. Also, The Lord Jesus Christ said it would be like this ”“ that in these last days of such strong delusion, with such a vast majority of false teachers having been taught these Jesuit doctrines, in the Jesuit infiltrated Protestant seminaries, - Mat 24:24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall show great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.

The truth train of history of pre-trib rapture doctrine begins with two Jesuit priests. The first was named Ribera. His writings influenced the Jesuit priest Lacunza. Lacunza influenced Irving, Irving influenced Darby, Darby influenced Scofield, Scofield and Darby influenced D.L. Moody, and Moody influenced a very large part of evangelical Christianity, and almost the entire Pentecostal movement. Someone once said all roads lead to Rome, and in the case of the pre-trib rapture doctrines that remains accurate.

aservant

Thanks for these comments. What can I say when so many are speaking against great men of God? I can only assume that Jim Searcy's comments come from another party, as he could not have said what he says truthfully if he had read Lacunzas book.

As I said in my last post, I have just finished reading Lacunza's book, and he definitely does NOT speak of a pre trib rapture. He concludes that the resurection of the dead saints and the catching up of those living takes place at Christ's second coming as per Matt 24. You should read it yourself, but I would advise ommitting Irvings very lengthy introduction; Because of copyright, I cannot reproduce Lacunza's words on this site.

david

just did a search for "Lacunza jesuit" and a few of the results are:

http://www.beholdthebeast.com/end_time_myth.htm

http://upwardcall.net/rapture.html

http://israelect.com/reference/WillieMartin/Ignatius_Loyola.htm

the synopsis of the other results follow these 3 above in regard to Lacunza, so end of the day, they still could be all wrong, potentially

however, I know enough about the jesuits that I would
never read a single book of one of them. It's always a
deception on at least 3 levels simultaniously.

One needs to start at their declaration of formation
to understand why that is so, and will never change.
It's one of those militant clubs you can join, but never leave.

My brother,

I quite understand your reluctance to read Lacunza.
It is far better to wait on the Lord for His wonderful revelations of grace to us worthless sinners.

David

Any religious doctrine whose primary appeal is to The Flesh, is immediately suspect.

Truth emanates from the Cross, pleasure emanates from the flesh.

Have been watching some very brilliant and truly scriptural sermons on end times by mike bickle and david pawson
they speak as jesus speaks
jesus told us so clearly that he will be coming after the signs in heaven appear and after the tribulation
but of that literal day or hour after those signs no one knows
jesus said to his followers that when they see all of these things happen
look up for your redemption is drawing near
another brilliant teaching taught as well which agrees with jesus is that he will raise his followers at the last day and no sooner
another brilliant teaching is that there is only one true tree anf of that tree some of the branches were broken off so that us gentiles from a wild olive tree could be grafted in
we are wild and only grafted in but now we are of the commonwealth of israel
only the believing jews were the true church and true tree and true israel we gentiles were grafted into the church
an example is britian was the true britian but australia was grafted in and became part of the british commonwealth
they shared the common wealth and sovereignty as well as laws
times have changed today and they want to be a republic
More good teaching can be found on my southland.com
have a look and enjoy