Please give one clear scriptural verse for a pretrib resurrection

Still waiting for a clear verse that states a pretrib resurrection

Here is a very clear verse on a post trib gathering together to Jesus at the sound of a trumpet and a shout and at the coming of Christ

Mat 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
Mat 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
Mat 24:31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

There are many other verses in Old Testament and new testament that support these same verses and are just as clear.

Please provide verses not theories

To those that support a theory on pretrib please provide very clear proof in the way of scriptural verses that states a pretrib gathering or pretrib resurrection.
Let us reason together.
I can say again that there is not one clear verse that supports a pretrib resurrection.

My favorite verse is,

"In case of rapture, this car will veer wildly as mother-in-law grasps for the wheel..."

You are right Just-in. When the world mocks Christian doctrine and there is no reasonable response, unbelievers go on their ways to destruction.

Trying to tell skeptical people that one of these days all the true Christians will suddenly float off in the sky like helium balloons, they roll their eyes and wonder if there is some religion somewhere with a grip on reality. This one doesn't qualify.

In the absence of any Pre-tib adherers responding here was Chuck Smith's Pre-trib view. https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/articles/index.php?view=article&aid=14977

It is pretty much the standard pre-trib reasoning, and I have already said on the other thread I don't think it is convincing. However we can disagree with folk like Chuck Smith on this without belittling his value as a servant of Christ, who was used in a great way.

We may disagree with the whole pre-trib, secret rapture position, but we should not make the mistake of saying there is no such thing as a rapture or being caught up in the air with the Lord. It's just a question of when we go!

These two paragraphs from Chuck Smith's article make a good point:

"There are people who say, "I don't believe in the Rapture of the church," because they have looked through the Bible and have never found the word "Rapture" in the Bible. But in I Thessalonians 4:17 we read that, "Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord."

"The word translated 'caught up' in the Greek is 'harpazo,' which means 'to be taken away by force.' It's usually used as a military term related to the taking of hostages. The Latin Vulgate translates 'harpazo' as 'raptuse,' and that's where we get our English word 'rapture.' Jesus will return to rapture His church." That's the first event.

So the Rapture is a fact if the bible means what it says. As I said in the other thread, I think we are raptured / caught up / gathered to be with the Lord at the end of the tribulation period, before the bowls of wrath are poured out, at the last trumpet. That seems to me to fit all the scriptures best.

Hi Frank I fully understand what is being asked and have adressed that issue from my understanding of the subject. However my caution regarding not dismisssing the rapture as an event was in response to the three posts prior to mine by Budgie and Sidewalk which were implying that. Maybe Sidewalk needs to explain what he means when he says about floating up in the sky in such a dismissive way, when the scripture clearly says we will meet the lord in the air?

Greetings saints!

If I may be so bold as to quote a short piece from Watchman Nee on the great subject of rapture. His (Watchman Nee) teachings are found here on sermonindex so I hope it's alright.

Excerpt from THE KING AND THE KINGDOM OF HEAVEN. by WATCHMAN NEE Pg 285:

"There are different views on rapture among believers. Some say (1) that the whole body of the saved will be raptured before the Great Tribulation; others believe (2) that the whole body of the saved must go through the Great Tribulation before they are raptured; while still others feel (3) that a part of the saved will be raptured before the Great Tribulation and a part of them will be raptured after the Great Tribulation.

There are mainly these three schools of interpretation on the subject; yet merely because any one of them is different from the one you hold to does not give you any warrant to denounce the different view as heresy. It is wrong to withhold fellowship simply for this reason. Well-known believers are found in all three schools.

Of the first school mentioned, names can be cited such as J. N. Darby, William Kelly (C. H. Spurgeon once said that Kelly’s brain was as large as the universe), R. A. Torrey (who later changed to a post-tribulation rapture view), Phillips Brooks, James Gray, Arno C. Gaebelein, J. A. Seiss, C. I. Scofield, and so forth.

Of the second school, there could be listed such names as George Muller (who first believed in pre-tribulation rapture), A. J. Gordon ofBoston, A. B. Simpson, W. J. Erdman, W. G. Moorehead, Henry Frost of Canada, James Wright, Benjamin Newton, and so on.

And as to the third school, we have names such as Hudson Taylor, Robert Chapman, Robert Govett (Spurgeon praised his writings as having light a century ahead of his time and as being full of gold), G. H. Pember, D. M. Panton (the "prince of prophecy”) and others. None of the three schools can completely ignore the others, yet only one is correct. Let us therefore examine them with fairness, having the attitude of a judge and not that of a lawyer."

I hope this helps someone. For interest's sake Nee goes on to share his own view on the subject in that very chapter.

Stay blessed

James

In answer to Chuck Smith article and to others that focus on the {caught up }.Paul is speaking about the main doctrine/subject as to the Resurrection of the dead, all of the preceeding verses are about the truth of being raised from the dead, he is not preaching about a doctrine of being { caught up } no where else in Pauls teaching does he focus on [ caught up }
THESSALONIANS 4 is a brilliant defense for the Resurrection

1Th 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
1Th 4:15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
1Th 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

It says that the dead in Christ shall rise first, this is clearly the Resurrection, we that are alive at this time will then be caught up together to meet them.

The Truth is YES there is a Resurrection and yes when this Resurrection takes place we who are alive will be {caught up } together with them in the clouds.
Great Truth, Jesus said the same He will gather us together to meet him in the clouds, exactly the same.

Thessalonians 4 is a brilliant presentation and proof by God that there is a Resurrection and that Yes we will be caught up together with them, BUT IT DOES NOT CLEARLY SAY THAT THIS IS BEFORE THE TRIBULATION

YES THERE IS A RESURRECTION AND YES WE WILL BE RAPTURED ( TAKEN UP ) WHEN THIS RESURRECTION TAKES PLACE YOU CANNOT SEPARATE THIS GREAT TRUTH

The perception today is that as soon as the word rapture is used, automatically it is assumed that it is Pretrib resurrection, what a lie THE RAPTURE IS BEING CAUGHT UP TOGETHER TO CHRIST IN THE CLOUDS WHEN THE RESURRECTION TAKES PLACE,
There is no time frame as to how long this catching up takes place, as the disciples watched in amazement as Jesus ascended into the clouds so it will be when He returns and when we ascend to meet Him, it will be a very visible scene to the whole world

So Thess 4 is not a good defense for a PreTrib argument as there is no mention of Tribulation in these verses, but is the most brilliant revelation of the Resurrection of the Dead.

Budgie, I must appologise to you because I had wrongly said it was you and Sidewalk that were implying no Rapture. It was Just in and Sidewalk I should have been adressing, not you at all.

Also I agree with what you just wrote regarding the rapture. That was the point i was making to those guys. I guess you had to shout (caps), because I misrepresented you.:)

Jimm,

Interesting article by watchman nee. I have been trying to say simliar in that we should not shout heresy against those who hold a different view to us on this subject. Also intersting that those ones mentioned who chaged their position went from pre to post, which is much like me, although I would not say 'post', as it can be misunderstood. I would say 'end of trib, pre-wrath. Maybe I've added another catagory! :D

By the way, what is Nee's position?

Hi Greg,
That was a mistake I made every time I read the the scripture.
Then one day God pointed this out to me on the following scriptures:

1 thess 4:15For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not precede them who are asleep.

16For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

17Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

1Cor 15:52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet; for the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised [a]imperishable, and we will be changed.

1.The basis that we think no one will see the rapture is that it happens so quickly ie"in a twinkling.
We will just vanish into thin air!
But look at it again the scripture only says we will "be changed" in the "twinkling"
2 The Rapture or the "going up in the as sky "will be seen by all because it is not instantaneous .It will be quick but in "minutes "rather than seconds or instant
3its all about timing if the "rapture" or "taking up" is not instantaneous then we will be able to see it as with all other translations or raptures in the bible.
The rapture will take some time "minutes" and then the changing will be in a "twinkling"

So therefore their is no secret Rapture!

Yours Staff

Hi Budgie
When asked what would his coming be like?Jesus said

JUST AS IT HAPPENED(Not similar or close or roughly)but JUST

26"And just as it happened in the days of Noah, so it will be also in the days of the Son of Man: 27they were eating, they were drinking, they were marrying, they were being given in marriage, until the day that Noah entered the ark, and the flood came and destroyed them all. 28"It was the same as happened in the days of Lot: they were eating, they were drinking, they were buying, they were selling, they were planting, they were building; 29but on the day that Lot went out from Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven and destroyed them all. 30"It will be just the same on the day that the Son of Man is revealed.

This scripture does not say that their is a pre tribulation rapture but it does say that a post tribulation has a problem timeline wise.

yours Staff

Hey Dave

To answer your question on what's Nee's position. I will quote him and a little bit of his exegesis. As you can imagine it's a rather lengthy chapter and is not possible to summarize, but just to give you a bit of background to Nee's view I thought it prudent to share a small portion. Again this is an excerpt from THE KING AND THE KINGDOM OF HEAVEN by WATCHMAN NEE:

"Our summary conclusion to all this is that the third school of interpretation seems to be the correct one””that is to say, that one group of believers will be raptured before the Tribulation while another group of believers will go through the Tribulation and be raptured afterwards" (Pg 303)

"A. Were the entire body of believers to be raptured after the Tribulation, there would again be no need for us to watch and wait and be prepared. Knowing that the Lord would not come before the end of the three and a half years’ period, we could live evilly up to three years five months and twenty-nine days. Yet such a concept violates the very principle of the Scriptures.

B. Were all of us believers to be raptured after the Great Tribulation, then our waiting would not be a waiting for Christ but for the Antichrist, since the latter must come first.

C. The church would lose her hope””"Looking for the blessed hope and appearing of the glory of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ” (Titus 2.13)””for included in this hope is the blessing of escaping the Tribulation.

D. The second school of interpretation does not accept the idea of a secret rapture; yet its followers forget the word, "Behold, I come as a thief” (Rev. 16.15). A thief comes secretly, is never preceded by a band, and always steals the best.

E. This second school views the twelve disciples as being purely Christians in direct contrast with the view of the first school which considers these twelve as being merely Jews. As a matter of fact, however, these twelve disciples are Christians as well as representatives of the Jewish remnant. For example, in Matthew 10.5-6 and 23.3 we see that all have a Jewish background, a fact which is thus inapplicable to Christians.

F. There is a failure in this second school to distinguish between rapture and the appearing of the Lord. There is a difference between Christ coming for the saints and Christ coming with the saints. That which Enoch prophesied, as recorded in Jude, points to the coming of the Lord "with his holy myriads” (see Jude 14-15 mg.) when His feet step down on the Mount of Olives." (pg 297)

This is of course one of many views and I respect differences in opinion. I have read books on the subject Evangelical and Charismatic alike, but Nee to me seems very calm and methodical in his approach and is one of few books on the subject I can recommend. He also makes lengthy arguments for post-trib and pre-trib in the same book.

Jimm

Hi Frank,
I think that explanation of planting,marrying etc comparing Germany is totally inadequate and anyone comparing and being honest with themselves could not equate a time where you could freely eat,drink,marry,plant,build,buy and sell with the "the great tribulation".
I guess it is up to the reader to decide whether when God is pouring out his wrath on the world bowl,vials etc the Anti Christ reign is in full swing is the same time described by Jesus as time of eating,planting building marrying,buying and selling.
But it not up to the reader to decide on the following as we know it without having to decide because Jesus said it clearly.
JUST like in the days of Noah and Lot Judgement did not come until after Lot went out and it was immediately after they left.
This leaves a problem with the timeline.
Yours Staff

What I meant about dismissive is the fact that unbelievers dismiss the entire gospel message when they encounter one part that is off the wall. The rapture doctrine has no viable stream in scripture, is has no real precedent in the historical record that directs a new believer to see some logic. On the other hand, Jesus Himself did demonstrate rapture on the Mount of Transfiguration. He was physically raptured, and we can envision that to some degree.

My emphasis in all this is that the Holy Spirit is working right now, bringing us to a point in history where we will be caught up, literally, to the place where Jesus is, clothed with immortality, perfected in His image. We will be like Him, for we shall see Him as He is. The cloud is the larger body of believers who have gone before us and we will join them in the cloud. This is a cloud of witnesses, and predates the modern internet term.

We can argue about the details of flying off into the sky, but my spirit seems to be much more attuned to the restoration of the earth under its temporary curse. I look for the blessed work described in Psalm 149.

Many have not studied the book of Revelations and all of the other prophetic books and placed in proper perspective the timeframes.
No where in scripture does it say that at the end of 1260 days exactly does Jesus Christ return, no where does it state that. Jesus certainly did not say that. Jesus stated some events that would take place AFTER the tribulation but how many days we do not know.
What it does clearly show is that the Antichrist that will be arising from out of the midst of the people will be working and He does not receive His power until the Abomination of Desolation takes place then He is given power for only 1260 days in the middle of the 7 year peace treaty, he appears as a wonderful and intriguing man before that 1260 days he then exalts himself as God(he is only given power for 1260 days) it does not say that at the end of the 1260 days he then dies or is killed at exactly that point, also the 2 witnesses are only given power for 1260 days and then at the end of that 1260 days they lay dead for 3 1/2 days then they are raised from the dead.So there is at least a 3 1/2 days after the 1260 days. The Gentiles are only given 1260 days to trample Jerusalem, the people that flee into the wilderness are protected for 1260 days then what? There is still a time frame that takes place after the 1260 days, the beast loses his power, the 2 witnesses are gone.
Jesus said this
Mat 24:15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:)
Mat 24:16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:
Mat 24:17 Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house:
Mat 24:18 Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes.
Mat 24:19 And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days!
Mat 24:20 But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day:
Mat 24:21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
Mat 24:22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.
Mat 24:23 Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not.
Mat 24:24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.
Mat 24:25 Behold, I have told you before.
AND HE ALSO SAID THIS
Mat 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
Mat 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
So there is a small timeframe that takes place after the Tribulation of those days, that tribulation ends and then after that there are signs in Heaven but we are not given that timeframe???? is it a week or is it a month// whatever it is it is immediately after the Tribulation, there is no mention of anything else.
DANIEL talks about some of the timeframe
Dan 12:9 And he said, Go thy way, Daniel: for the words are closed up and sealed till the time of the end.
Dan 12:10 Many shall be purified, and made white, and tried; but the wicked shall do wickedly: and none of the wicked shall understand; but the wise shall understand.
Dan 12:11 And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days.
Dan 12:12 Blessed is he that waiteth, and cometh to the thousand three hundred and five and thirty days.
Dan 12:13 But go thou thy way till the end be: for thou shalt rest, and stand in thy lot at the end of the days.
Lets not date set, LET US ALL ENCOURAGE EACH OTHER AS THE TIME APPROACHES SO THAT WE MAY ALL BE STANDING WITH CHRIST AND EACH OTHER ON THAT BLESSED DAY OF THE RESURRECTION OF THE JUST

In Jerusalem and Palestine today with all of the conflict and bombing people are marrying and living a life in total ignorance of God and of the events to come.
The rest of the world where there is wealth and luxury live in the same way, totally oblivious to the prophetic events that are to take place.
It is for us to be Christ on this earth and be salvation to those in darkness, that they may see the Light of Christ and no longer be in darkness. It is only to those that are in darkness and living in selfish desires that the Coming of Jesus will be as a thief.

NO ONE HAS YET GIVEN A CLEAR SCRIPTURAL VERSE THAT CLEARLY SUPPORTS A PRETRIB RESURRECTION.
Much theory but no scripture.
HEBREWS says this
Heb 6:2 Of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment.
IT IS TO BE A DOCTRINE OF THE RESURRECTION OF THE DEAD not a doctrine of (caught up)
Mat 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
Mat 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
Mat 24:31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
AND
2Th 2:1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,
2Th 2:2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
2Th 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
2Th 2:4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.
2Th 2:5 Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?
2Th 2:8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:
Rev 19:19 And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army.
Rev 19:20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.
Rev 11:15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.

The reason we watch, and wait, and be alert and ready is because we could die tomorrow, if we died tomorrow would we be ready? today is the day to not harden our hearts, today is the day to be trusting, today is the day to be ready so that we can give an answer to a dieing soul and bring Salvation to another Human being. Once we have died we cannot change our destiny, let us live for Christ now and declare His Love now, a person who is ready, watching, and waiting is a person who is close to the heart of God and is living in Christ, comforted because Jesus has warned us of events to come the same as Jesus warned His disciples of events that would come in their life. Let us not despise Prophecy especially when it is the Word of God. Look at all of the Prophecies of Christ at His first coming, look at all of the Prophecies of His second coming, I want to be a person that is aware of Prophecies so that I can give an encouraging word from the word of God when the events are fulfilled. It is not just about when Jesus comes it is about our life could be taken today are we ready now?
Luk 21:34 And take heed to yourselves, lest at any time your hearts be overcharged with surfeiting, and drunkenness, and cares of this life, and so that day come upon you unawares.
Luk 21:35 For as a snare shall it come on all them that dwell on the face of the whole earth.

Saints, I am not into this pre/post trib arguments. My belief is based on Matthew 24-29.

But I have a question here, do you all believe that great tribulation time will be a time when God will pour his wrath upon the people? Or is it only the belief of PreTrib group? What is the scriptural proof of great tribulation including God's wrath?

Starting from Rev 6 where God's wrath is spoken, is it not all about the judgment seat when his wrath will be poured? Great tribulation should be a tribulation when the greatest AntiChrist is revealed, who will lead the Church and true believers who refuse to accept his mark into his wrath. I do not see God's wrath being poured here, when the Church is still living on the earth. Why? Because we are not destined for God's wrath but for salvation (1 Thessalonians 5:9).

I would encourage all to read with an open mind the books of Joel, Daniel, Revelations, Peter and Matthew as well as others to see just how much God loves us and has given us all an insight into His plan to bring deliverance to those that Love Him and walk in the paths of righteousness, as in the Old Testament whenever His children walked astray he always used a fiery trial to bring them back into His loving arms, He has always allowed events to happen to reveal what is in mans heart, it is no different today with the Church.
In the letters to the Churches in Revelations Jesus gives strong warnings and does not hold back but He also gives praise so that we may be comforted and draw near Him in true assurance.
God has always given prophecy so that we would know and be comforted in times of distress, He has not hidden from us His Plan, even today there is much that the Church is guilty of, no different to the children of Israel, look at all of the Idol worship, all of the Sin, Jesus wants us to surrender all and to allow Him to come into the darkness of our Life and bring His Life and Joy.
Judgement begins in the House of God
Pe_4:17 For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God?
We should truly have a Fear that would cause us to repent and allow His light to shine and reveal all of our hidden sin.
The Church has always been a picture of sacrifice and suffering from its very beginning, the exact image of Christ in His selfless walk, He is the Master.
When you read all of the above you see just how wicked mans heart can be but you also see just how much Love and trust towards Jesus that His followers have, even to the point of death.
Study His word and see His ultimate plan to destroy evil and have a Pure spotless Bride for Eternity.

First have a look at my thread on we are not appointed to Wrath and the exact places this exact Greek word is used in Revelations.
Then read Daniel and all of Revelations to see the different types of wrath that come on the earth, satan comes with great wrath, God has wrath, Jesus tramples the winepress of the wrath of God at His coming, when He also brings deliverance to those in Christ. The 2 witnesses have also been given power to bring plagues and torment on the unbelievers, the Earth is going through a great upheaval. Satans plan is to bring torment to try and destroy the faith of those in Christ and to destroy the Church of God, but we have the Victory, the blood of Jesus and the Testimony of Christ, Jesus has the keys of death and hell, death cannot separate us from the Love of God.
Rom 8:35 Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword?
Rom 8:36 As it is written, For thy sake we are killed all the day long; we are accounted as sheep for the slaughter.
Rom 8:37 Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him that loved us.
Rom 8:38 For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come,
Rom 8:39 Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Budgie,

I took a look at your post on Wrath. I had not realised you had put so many different posts on this subject. I was particularly interested to read your post on the 'until He be taken out of the way' passage in 2 Thessalonians. I also thought that the majority of translations of this verse did not make sense and the popular pre-trib explanation was self contradicting. So thanks for your post on the alternative reading of this. It makes much more sense in this way.(It is self contradicting as it says in 2 Thess.2 that the gathering together of the saints on the Day of the Lord cannot happen until the anti-Christ is revealed, but then they say that the anti-Christ will not be revealed until the church is raptured??!!)

On the Wrath issue, are saying that you believe that the church will go through the majority of the tribulation, but be resurrected / raptured before the 7 bowls of wrath are poured out in Rev 16? Or do you mean the wrath of the 2nd death? It did not seem clear to me when I read your post on this.

As to your question regarding whether the Church goes through the Tribulation, first of all I will say this, in the New Testament there are many references that are made where the believers in Christ are called Saints, are called Brethren, are called the Elect, are called the Believers, are called those that have the testimony of Jesus Christ and for this reason there is much that applies to us in the Book of revelations. Also the only reason that the Church is mentioned in the first 3 chapters in Revelations is because Jesus and John was making direct reference to those specific churches in the specific area around the island of Patmos.All of the Book of Revelations was given to all of the Churches and we as the Church are to learn all that has been spoken, Jesus prepares His people to overcome.
Secondly every Prophetic book gives pictures and these pictures overlap on top of each other to reveal a fuller picture, an example of this is the visions of Daniel, they all come together and give an indication of time, sequence and revealing of the end times and the reign of the Antichrist as well as the Coming of Christ and the Resurrection as well as the destruction of the Antichrist and the Reign of Christ on Earth.
Revelations is the same, there are many key points in the Book of Revelations where you can see the overlapping.
It is of great value to look at what events are spoken of between the 6th seal and 7th seal, the 6th trumpet and 7th trumpet and again the 6th and 7 th bowl.
There are so many references made to Christ and what takes place.The First resurrection does not take place until the culmination of these events, the bride has not made herself ready until the culmination of these events, the bride has not been clothed with the righteousness of the saints until the culmination of these events and Jesus does not begin His reign, destruction of the Antichrist and the binding of Satan until the culmination of these events.Blessed is He that is in the 1st Resurrection for there is no fear of the second death judgement at the end of the 1000 years, and they will reign with Christ on earth.
Study the scripture and keep your mind open to the word of God.
When you look at that specific Wrath word used in Thessalonians and the promise it is True, for those that have died in Christ they are not appointed to Gods Wrath on the Day of Judgement at the end of the 1000 year reign, as they are already judged and found innocent in the Blood of Christ and will be in the 1st resurrection, for those that are living on the earth at the coming of Christ and that are under the blood of Christ they also will be delivered in that same 1st Resurrection and will not be on earth when Jesus tramples the winepress of the wrath of God.
The words of Christ are true we do obtain salvation and not the wrath.

One thing that amazes me today is how much the church separates itself from the jewishness of christ and of the commonwealth of israel having no desire to celebrate christ in the feasts of god but at the same time use a jewish wedding analogy to say that they alone in their gentile position are the bride and then support a pretrib resurrection we dont suffer but everyone else suffers apparently still under the same blood of christ. Paul stated that we who were gentiles that had no god have been grafted into the true olive tree and that we are now part of the commonwealth of israel. The partition has been destroyed through christ and we and the believing jews are now one man. One body in christ one bride in christ

Hi Just in'
Anyone with a tribulation view uses timelines.If you dont have a time line then you cant have a tribulation view'
Yours Staff

Hi Sree,
The wrath of God is not poured out when the church is present.
Yours Staff

Hi Budgie,
Here is one scripture that speaks clearly of a pre tribulation rapture.Before you say anything let me point out that in reality their is no such thing as a mid tribulation view.A mid tribulation view correctly says that the "great tribulation"is the second half of the 7 year period.This Rapture happens mid "7 year" and pre "great tribulation"

Rev 11:11 Now after the three-and-a-half days the breath of life from God entered them, and they stood on their feet, and great fear fell on those who saw them. 12 And they[e] heard a loud voice from heaven saying to them, "Come up here.” And they ascended to heaven in a cloud, and their enemies saw them

Yours Staff

LET US ALWAYS REASON WITH SCRIPTURE
I have used scriptural backing and scriptural reasoning for all of my threads focusing on the truthful words spoken by Jesus and Paul, not my own theory,I have let the word of God do the talking, I have used other verses that use the same greek word as references as to the meaning of the word.I have used the prophecies spoken by Jesus and Paul not a man made timeline.I have stuck to the true word that has been spoken, it is so important to reason in Love and in truth. There is no lie in the threads that I have spoken.
It is so important in these last days to have sound doctrine and to search the scriptures so that we may know. I do nothing but encourage other followers of Christ to seek the most loving and intimate relationship with God and so deep that no matter what comes they do not give up.
Rom 8:31 What shall we then say to these things? If God be for us, who can be against us?
Rom 8:32 He that spared not his own Son, but delivered him up for us all, how shall he not with him also freely give us all things?
Rom 8:33 Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth.
Rom 8:34 Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us.
Rom 8:35 Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword?
Rom 8:36 As it is written, For thy sake we are killed all the day long; we are accounted as sheep for the slaughter.
Rom 8:37 Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him that loved us.
Rom 8:38 For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come,
Rom 8:39 Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.
I certainly do not know all truth, but what I do declare is because I have studied in great depth and because of the revealing of the Holy Spirit, when interpreted properly they always bring glory to God and most importantly align with other verses, there is no conflict.
There is only one truth, one doctrine to the Return of Christ, not the many theories by man that bring so much confusion and disunity.
Jesus said in the last days men will want to have their ears tickled and Paul stated that their will be many false doctrines.
I have never stated a mid trib resurrection, and I don't use timelines, I use Prophecy and the word of God, it is Jesus that spoke the order of events and Jesus that gave the number of days in revelations and the angel of God that gave the same number of days in Daniel. God has always been precise with the number of days and the sequence of events regarding prophecy, look at the 1st coming of Christ.
There certainly is no mid trib Resurrection and no Coming of Christ midtrib as there is no scripture to support this. as per you using the death and resurrection of the 2 witnesses as a pretrib reason this does not come together at all, the reason being is as follows.
Rev 11:1 And there was given me a reed like unto a rod: and the angel stood, saying, Rise, and measure the temple of God, and the altar, and them that worship therein.
Rev 11:2 But the court which is without the temple leave out, and measure it not; for it is given unto the Gentiles: and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty and two months.
Rev 11:3 And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.
Rev 11:4 These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth.

It clearly places The 2 witnesses as ministering at the very same time that the Holy City is being trampled under foot by the Gentiles.
This trample in the greek means as follows
G3961

πατέω
patéoÌ„; contracted patṓ, fut. patḗsoÌ„, from pátos (n.f.), a path, a beaten way. To tread, trample (Luk_10:19; Sept.: Isa_32:20; Isa_42:5); to tread as a winepress (Rev_14:20; Rev_19:15); to trample upon or have in subjection (Luk_21:24; Rev_11:2; Sept.: Isa_1:12). See leÌ„nós (G3025), winepress (Sept.: Isa_16:10; Lam_1:15).

I put it to you especially when looking at all other prophetic books (when in the 7 year period does the Holy City of God get Trample under foot? )In the first 3 1/2 years when there is peace or in the last 3 1/2 years when the beast begins to reign for the 3 1/2 years?

Not just this but the 2 witnesses bring much torment to those on the earth as follows

Rev 11:4 These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth.
Rev 11:5 And if any man will hurt them, fire proceedeth out of their mouth, and devoureth their enemies: and if any man will hurt them, he must in this manner be killed.
Rev 11:6 These have power to shut heaven, that it rain not in the days of their prophecy: and have power over waters to turn them to blood, and to smite the earth with all plagues, as often as they will.
Rev 11:7 And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them.

and also

Rev 11:10 And they that dwell upon the earth shall rejoice over them, and make merry, and shall send gifts one to another; because these two prophets tormented them that dwelt on the earth.

I don't think it is coincidence that the Torment and the plagues and the turning the water into blood, and no rain and sending fire down to destroy the wicked sounds very familiar to what is happening during the seals, trumpets and bowls.

Not just that but look at what happens not long after they arise in their body.

Rev 11:11 And after three days and an half the Spirit of life from God entered into them, and they stood upon their feet; and great fear fell upon them which saw them.
Rev 11:12 And they heard a great voice from heaven saying unto them, Come up hither. And they ascended up to heaven in a cloud; and their enemies beheld them.
Rev 11:13 And the same hour was there a great earthquake, and the tenth part of the city fell, and in the earthquake were slain of men seven thousand: and the remnant were affrighted, and gave glory to the God of heaven.
Rev 11:14 The second woe is past; and, behold, the third woe cometh quickly.
Rev 11:15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.

Did you notice that the 7th Angel sounded which is just after the earthquake and just after the 2 witnesses coming back to life

It says the very hour that they arose there was a earthquake and 7000 men were slain , if by what you are saying that these 2 witnesses are pretrib then You have a major problem as they arise just before the 7th Trumpet and Just before Christ begins His reign and Just before the Mystery of God is Completed.
You have a major problem because by what you have said you are implying that the pretrib rapture takes place between the 6th and 7th Trumpet, that is a major problem for you.

AND IT SAYS THE KINGDOMS OF THIS WORLD HAVE BECOME THE KINGDOMS OF THIS WORLD AND JESUS SHALL REIGN FOREVER.

Do you remember what was said earlier about when the 7 th Trumpet is about to sound.

Rev 10:7 But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets.

THE MYSTERY OF GOD THAT ALL OF THE SERVANTS THE PROPHETS HAVE DECLARED WILL BE FINISHED THE MYSTERY OF GOD SHALL BE FINISHED.

And as per your statement of Those that believe in tribulation use timelines, all I am using is the words of Christ and His timeline as in Matthew 24 where Jesus so very clearly states that His coming and Him gathering us together to Him after the Tribulation is as you said(using timelines)
This is not timelines that I am using it is the word of God and Prophecy in which God himself has declared to show us His sovereignty and Power, if it were not so He would have told us so.

Please use scripture for reasoning and not theories with no scriptural backing.

Also there is no mention as to whether the 2 witnesses are resurrected in the New Immortal body or just a resurrection body. Elijah and Enoch I believe were taken up into heaven and we know that they did not have the Immortal body because scripture tells us that Jesus was the Firstborn, he was the Firstfruits and afterward at His coming the Resurrection will take place and we will receive the same body. There is an order as to the resurrection.

2Ti 3:1 This know also, that in the last days perilous times shall come.
2Ti 3:2 For men shall be lovers of their own selves, covetous, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy,
2Ti 3:3 Without natural affection, trucebreakers, false accusers, incontinent, fierce, despisers of those that are good,
2Ti 3:4 Traitors, heady, highminded, lovers of pleasures more than lovers of God;
2Ti 3:5 Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away.
2Ti 3:6 For of this sort are they which creep into houses, and lead captive silly women laden with sins, led away with divers lusts,
2Ti 3:7 Ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth.
2Ti 3:8 Now as Jannes and Jambres withstood Moses, so do these also resist the truth: men of corrupt minds, reprobate concerning the faith.
2Ti 3:9 But they shall proceed no further: for their folly shall be manifest unto all men, as theirs also was.
2Ti 3:10 But thou hast fully known my doctrine, manner of life, purpose, faith, longsuffering, charity, patience,
2Ti 3:11 Persecutions, afflictions, which came unto me at Antioch, at Iconium, at Lystra; what persecutions I endured: but out of them all the Lord delivered me.
2Ti 3:12 Yea, and all that will live godly in Christ Jesus shall suffer persecution.
2Ti 3:13 But evil men and seducers shall wax worse and worse, deceiving, and being deceived.
2Ti 3:14 But continue thou in the things which thou hast learned and hast been assured of, knowing of whom thou hast learned them;
2Ti 3:15 And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.
2Ti 3:16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
2Ti 3:17 That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.

Hi Just in,
Again I point out that their is "tribulation" and the "great tribulation" and this is usually confused mostly by post tribulationists or people who wrongly believe that their is no "great tribulation"
Although Revelation is not Chronological the "Great Tribulation" is : their are events before the trib,their is a 31/2 year period and a second 31/2 year period followed by event after the 7 year period.That is a Timeline.
Yours Staff

Excellent logical video:

The Pre-Tribulation Paradox
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sEj0vN0Aadw

God bless,
Lisa

Hi Budgie,
So basically you are just reaming off scripture without responding to other Posts.My computer can spit out scripture like you are but it doesn't mean its inspired.It just means you are using scripture legalistically.
Although all scripture is inspired God inspires only small sections of scripture at a time to the individual.
The point remains that the Two Witnesses are resurrected prior to the last 3 1/2 years.Almost all Pre and Post commentators and members to S1 would agree to that.
Whether they have immortal or not is not really relevant they were resurrected from the dead and went upwards.
This is not a theory the two prophets are resurrected before the tribulation kicks off.
The whole idea of 3 1/2 years is built around Elijah and the prophetic pattern of Elijah and if you dont know what that is saying then you might well not look at Revelation.
yours Staff

I have great respect for this website and as to other believers, I have merely presented thought provoking breakdown of scripture, we can not all believe what we read and hear. And from what I have read from the many views that many have given on this website there appears to be 2 sides or may be more to many difficult passages.
I find nothing legalistic in regards to using scripture to interpret scripture, as the moderator has stated there are many views, all scripture is of God and is to be used for correct teaching, I have certainly not placed any bondage or any legalism on any person with the scriptures I have used. They allow believers to take a deeper look and to be challenged.

As per the 2 witnesses being in the first half of the 7 year period and dying before the tribulation and before any seals, trumpets and bowls, please provide a clear scriptural verse.

There are many commentaries that is true but do all commentaries believe in the same and are they correct in all areas an example is the Gifts of tongues being used in the Church today as being in operation, are they of the devil today are or they from God, have they ceased or have they remained to Glorify God and equip the saints?

This is what the scriptures say as to the 2 witnesses timing, very clear as to what takes place after their death and the placing just before the 7th trumpet, and just after the second woe.

Rev 11:9 And they of the people and kindreds and tongues and nations shall see their dead bodies three days and an half, and shall not suffer their dead bodies to be put in graves.
Rev 11:10 And they that dwell upon the earth shall rejoice over them, and make merry, and shall send gifts one to another; because these two prophets tormented them that dwelt on the earth.
Rev 11:11 And after three days and an half the Spirit of life from God entered into them, and they stood upon their feet; and great fear fell upon them which saw them.
Rev 11:12 And they heard a great voice from heaven saying unto them, Come up hither. And they ascended up to heaven in a cloud; and their enemies beheld them.
Rev 11:13 And the same hour was there a great earthquake, and the tenth part of the city fell, and in the earthquake were slain of men seven thousand: and the remnant were affrighted, and gave glory to the God of heaven.
Rev 11:14 The second woe is past; and, behold, the third woe cometh quickly.
Rev 11:15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.
Rev 11:16 And the four and twenty elders, which sat before God on their seats, fell upon their faces, and worshipped God,
Rev 11:17 Saying, We give thee thanks, O Lord God Almighty, which art, and wast, and art to come; because thou hast taken to thee thy great power, and hast reigned.
Rev 11:18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.
Rev 11:19 And the temple of God was opened in heaven, and there was seen in his temple the ark of his testament: and there were lightnings, and voices, and thunderings, and an earthquake, and great hail.
I am willing to settle with what is said in these verses as to their timing.

Hi Greg,
Sorry Greg that was me,your right of course and Budgie continue in how you see fit and may we be edified,
Yours Staff

Hi Budgie,
The most compelling reason about the witnesses for me has to do with the prophetic pattern.
In the old testament we have Elijah,the wicked woman Jezebel who wants his head,the antichrist figure Ahab,the 3:5yrs
In Malachi we have the prophesy of Elijah coming before the great and terrible day of the lord(telescoping)
Then we have Elijah in the form of John the Baptist,The wicked woman who wants his head,The Antichrist Figure Herod,
The 3:5 yrs,
The pattern repeats again Elijah(the witnesses),The Real Antichrist,The woman that rides the beast Jezebel,the 3:5yrs
Elijah comes before the day of the Lord.Thats why John the Baptist became confused and sent his disciples to Jesus asking are you the Messiah?.
John could'nt understand that Jesus was'nt coming to Judge at that time.He thought that the great and terrible day were the same day.
The pattern always has Elijah coming first to get things ready for Christ.Always before never after.
The 3.5yrs is only ever mentioned when Elijah is mentioned thats the Key to understanding the 7 yr period.
Yours Staff

-----------------------------------------------------------
As per the 2 witnesses being in the first half of the 7 year period and dying before the tribulation and before any seals, trumpets and bowls, please provide a clear scriptural verse
...........................................................

Hi Greg,
I have to take responsibility for causing any problems here.I said the wrong thing,I believe their is edification here and hope to learn more in a friendly discussion,apologies Staff

Thank you Staff member for your ideas and thoughts on the imagery that you have used from the Old Testament, I would like to also present the imagery where Moses and Aaron are used as the 2 representatives of God battling against pharaoh and his wizards, A battle of power between the True God and the false gods and Satan, battles of plagues and judgements, God was the overall winner and brought deliverance to the children of Israel and Judgement against Egypt.
I have this one question, when Revelations 11:1-19 is read and the events are clearly described, especially the torment on the ungodly, but also the timing of their death and their coming back to life, an earthquake and 1/10 of the city of Jerusalem falling and 7000 men dying and also the 7th trumpet blowing and the kingdoms becoming Christs.
Do you still suggest this as being in the first 3 1/2 years?? and that this first 3 1/2 years is just before 7th trumpet sounds and just before the kingdoms before Christ?
By what you are saying if I have heard correctly you are saying that during the first 3 1/2 year of peace between Jews and muslims, peace between Jerusalem and those in the peace treaty, peace between the antichrist and the jews that during this time the 2 witnesses are bringing plagues upon the earth, bringing torment upon those that are not godly, bringing fire down from heaven to destroy those who try to harm them, bring no rain during their ministry, turning water into blood and that when they come back to life there is an earthquake and 1/10 of the city of Jerusalem falls, 7000 men die,and this is before the 2nd 3 1/2 year period before the tribulation starts and that men give glory to God and then the kingdoms become Christs at the sound of the 7 th trumpet and the saints are rewarded.
I would suggest that the 2 witnesses are actually in battle against the beast and false prophet with the powers of God battling against the power of Satan and that the plagues, fire, water into blood, and the torment, that these are done in the second half of the 7 years when there is no peace in Jerusalem, when the believing jews that fled at the time of the abomination are protected, the 2 witnesses are in battle the same as Moses and Aaron and that at the end of this period as it says just after the 2 witnesses arise there is then judgement in Jerusalem the , 7th trumpet sounds, the kingdoms become Christs at the time of His coming and the saints are rewarded.

Hi Budgie,
I guess with all discussions its gets lost in the conversation we will both be with him in the end and we look through a glass dimly at times.May God bless your diligence in researching the scriptures.
I will try to address your questions in a couple of posts if I may.
What I am saying is not just about imagery but a prophetic true story which has a pattern that God has placed in the Bible to show us what is Going to happen.
The pattern is primarily to do with the ministry of "Elijah".
Because of this I believe you have to know the story of Elijah or you can know fully what is going to happen.
We are alerted to this when we see 3 1/2yrs,42months,1260 days or times time and half a time.
Firstly Elijah,John the Baptist and the witnesses have things in common 1:they all have the Spirit of Elijah 2:God has deliberately made all three mysterious e.g Elijah appears out of know where,John appears surprizingly in the wilderness and the witnesses pop up out of the blue.
They all have something to do with 3:5 years
God is saying look at this I have hidden something here study and find out.
The New Testament Church begins with John not Jesus overlooked by most everyone.Why?Because he is fulfilling "make ready the way of the Lord".What did he make ready?The Twelve Apostles and the people of Judea.If you read carefully you will see that all the Apostles came under John's Ministry before they came under Jesus'.He made them ready for Jesus.Why were some of the Apostles out looking for the Messiah?why did one disciple jump of a tree for no apparent reason to follow Jesus?Because John had told them the Messiah was coming and is among us.
Look at the pattern "all Israel went out to Elijah" and "all Judea and the surrounds went out to see John"
The Spirit of Elijah under John started the "Church" and the Spirit of Elijah will bring the Church age to an end in some way.
The main battle Elijah has is with Jezebel or the spirit of false religion said in another way.Actually both Elijah and John minister to the Antichrist figures Ahab and Herod.
The Witnesses come and repeat the Elijah ministry.
John described himself and his ministry by saying he was the "friend of the Bridegroom" or we would say to day the "best man".The witnesses have the same ministry.In a Jewish wedding "two witnesses" are required and have a decisive role in the marriage both in engagement, contract and consummation.
I will answer why I think they come in the first 3 1/2 years in another post,
Thanks again for the lively discussion
Yours Staff

I have no concerns with what you have presented and am in agreement to these great men of God, I have read and looked at their ministry.

I am fully aware of their ministry of preparation, I eagerly await your reply as to how you present the 2 witnesses as being in the first 3 1/2 years during the time of peace between jews and muslims and how you will present them as fitting in agreement with the timing and sequence that is presented in Revelations 11.

I agree with the sequence and placement of all that is in Revelations 11, especially the placement of what takes place the very hour that they are raised and so close to the 7th trumpet and the kingdoms becoming Christs.
Revelations as well as Daniel speak of this very special 3 1/2 years.

Can you please provide the answer so that it fits in perfectly with Revelations 11, in harmony.
I have always been taught to study each verse so that at the end of the study I am in total agreement with the verses and am not left with saying (well it does not really mean that).
Scripture is the standard, not my thoughts.

Again I look forward eagerly to your replies to the verses in mention, and am aware that time is needed, I would also appreciate any scriptural views from any viewers on any other of the posts that I have submitted, and especially views that break the scripture down and come into agreement with what the verses are saying.

Heydave asked on another thread ((Please give one clear scriptural verse for a pretrib resurrection for verses regarding events))
I have placed them on that thread for anyone to copy and paste to word document it is reasonably comprehensive and gives a plumbline to scripture

Gentlemen... and ladies,

Some of us are old, and not as sharp as in our youth. We not only forget things, but our eyes need some space between some of the thoughts to grasp them clearly.

So I would ask that as you type, drop a little space between the the thoughts. Makes them easier to read, easier to comprehend.

Good spelling and punctuation help too, but these are not so critical. They just make you look smart...??

Thank you. I for one love to read and consider the thoughts, but a large block of text without breaks is tough to deal with.

Sidewalk

Hi Sidewalk,
Im with you,I'm going to try harder for one
Staff

Hi Budgie,
ive good intentions to reply will do asap,
Staff

There are only 2 places where the actual words "the first resurrection" appear, and that is in Rev. 20:5,6.
And this occurs after Satan has been bound for a thousand years which takes place at the end of the tribulation & just before the start of Christs thousand year reign.

so correct pebblestone2

Here are a list of scriptures that help to maintain a healthy and scriptural doctrine on the Resurrection of those in Christ.

In Hebrews 6:1-2 we see that the doctrine of the Resurrection is one of the Elementary and Foundational Doctrines of our Faith.

Paul was an Apostle that had a very balanced Doctrine and was responsible for maintaining and also challenging Doctrines in the Body of Christ.

In the book of 2Timothy 3:16 we read that all scripture is given by inspiration by God and is profitable for Doctrine, for Reproof, for Correction, for Instruction in Righteousness.

For the Doctrine of Resurrection today there are so many views, so many theories and so much conflict, it is my endeavour in this list to simply present as many of the clear and concise scriptures that speak of the Resurrection, and they are scriptures or a Plumbline that I continually use for any of the studies I have done, it is so important that I must always align myself and my ideas to this plumbline.

I would encourage all to read and to study so that it may be the plumbline for your views and theories; I have presented them as bullet points as they are very crucial.

Ӣ\t1 Cor 15:20 Now is Christ risen and He has become the firstfruits of them that slept, when this verse is broken up it shows that Jesus is the First of Fruits of them that slept, He is the First of many, these fruits that He is the First of is all of those that are in Christ from many tribes, nations and race.
Ӣ\tRev 1:5 also confirms this statement and states that Jesus is the First born from the dead, this implies that there was no other before Him and that He alone was the First born.

Ӣ\tCol 1:18 also confirms the same Jesus is the First born from the dead.
Ӣ\t1 Cor 15:21 states that by Christ came the resurrection of the dead.
Ӣ\t1 Cor 15:22 states that in Christ shall ALL be made alive.
Ӣ\t1 Cor 15:23 states that there is an order to the Resurrection in the immortal body.
Ӣ\t1 Cor 15:23 Jesus Christ is First.
Ӣ\t1 Cor 15:23 Afterward those that are Christs at His Coming, by this verse we see that only Jesus Christ is risen in His new Immortal body and that afterward at His coming those that are Christs will be raised in the New Immortal Body.

Ӣ\t1 Cor 15:42-49 states that the Resurrection of our bodies will be a body that is raised and also for those that are alive at the time it will be a body that is changed, changed to a body that is incorruptible, in Glory, in Power, a Spiritual Body and a Heavenly Body.

Ӣ\tRomans 8:23 states that we have the first fruits of the Spirit, and that because we have just the first fruits we are still groaning, waiting for the adoption, the redemption of our body, we are still awaiting that immortal body, at present we are still housed in this mortal body.
Ӣ\t 1 Cor 15:51 states that we will not all die but that we will ALL be changed.
Ӣ\t1 Cor 15:52 states that this changing takes place in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, it says that the dead will be raised incorruptible and we will be changed.

Ӣ\tRom 8:11 states that the same Spirit that raised Jesus from the dead will also raise us up from the dead.
Ӣ\t1 Thess 4:13-14 states that we have a Hope in Jesus in that all that have died in Christ He shall bring with Him, these that have died that Jesus is bringing with Him are the spirits and they are still awaiting to be clothed in their new bodies, how do we know this? Because verse 16 tells us.
Ӣ\t1 Thess 4:16 states that when He comes the dead in Christ will rise first, this reveals an amazing Truth that the dead bodies of those that have died will be raised incorruptible and will be joined again with our spirit.
Ӣ\t1 Thess 4:15 states that we who are alive and are changed will not be before those that have died, and again in verse 16 the dead will rise first, before us.

Ӣ\t2 Cor 5:8 states that to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord, so when we have no body we are present with the Lord and when He returns again He will bring our spirit and will again clothe us but with a New Immortal Body.
I would like to now shift for a short moment and look at some verses that are in common and are in the same order in the Old Testament as well as in the New testament,. Jesus, Paul, John, and Daniel as well as in the book of Acts all speak in exact Harmony on the Resurrection, they all speak of a Resurrection of the Just, also known as the Resurrection of Life and also known as the Resurrection of Everlasting Life and they also speak of a resurrection of the unjust, also known as the resurrection of damnation, also known as the resurrection of everlasting contempt. The verses for these are as follows, Luke 14:14, Acts 24:15, John 5:28, Daniel 12:2. All are spoken in the same order and are in Harmony.

Ӣ\tRevelations 20 also speaks of two Resurrections, the First is when Jesus comes and is spoken of as Blessed and Holy is he that takes part in the first resurrection, on such the second death has no power and they shall be Priests of God and Christ and shall reign with Christ a 1000 years, we then read that not all of the dead are raised in this First Resurrection. After 1000 years the sea and death and hell delivered up all of the dead and they were judged by God and those that are not written in the Book of Life are cast into the lake of Fire. So we again see that this First Resurrection is a Resurrection of those that are Justified in Christ, they are Blessed and Holy and the second Resurrection is of those that are judged and there is the Lake of Fire. This concept of two resurrections is important to keep in mind.
Let us now go back to the Resurrection of those in Christ, what does the scriptures say of how this takes place.
Ӣ\t1 Thess 4:16 states that Jesus Himself will descend with a Shout, with the Voice of an Archangel, and with the Trump of God.
Ӣ\t1 Cor 15:52 states that this Trump will be the Last Trump and that it will sound.

Ӣ\tMath 24:30-31 are also in Harmony with the above and states that Jesus comes in the Clouds with Great Power and Glory, Jesus sends His Angels with a Great Awakening Blast of a Trumpet and that His Angels will gather together His Elect from the four points of Heaven.
Ӣ\tMark 13:27 states that the Angels will gather the Elect from the four points of Heaven and the earth.

Ӣ\tJohn 6:39, 40, 44 states that Jesus will raise up those that God has given to Him on the Last Day.
Let us quickly summarise Jesus comes in the clouds, with a great awakening blast of a Trumpet and this trumpet is called the last Trumpet, there is a Shout, with the Voice of an Archangel, and the angels gather to Him all that are in Him from the four points of the Heaven and the Earth and Jesus stated that this will be at the Last Day, surely this is the resurrection of the Just and surely it is the First Resurrection.
Ӣ\t1 Thess 4:17 also harmonizes with this in that it states that after the dead are raised we will be caught up to meet them in the clouds, this being caught up after the dead are raised and our bodies are changed is called the (rapture) it is the means by which we are gathered by force to the clouds to meet Jesus.

Ӣ\t1 Thess 5:10 states that whether we are dead or alive we will Live together with Him.
Ӣ\t! Thess 4:17 states that when this happens we shall ever be with the Lord Jesus, (wherever He exists we will be with Him)
Ӣ\t1 Cor 15:54-56 states that death will be swallowed up in victory, death has no sting and the grave has no victory.
Ӣ\t2 Thess 1:10 states that Jesus will come to be Glorified in His saints and to be admired in all of them that believe.

Ӣ\tMath 24:27 states that as the lightning cometh out of the east and shineth even to the west so shall also be the Coming of the Sun of Man, even when on a day of sun the lightning strikes and lights up the sky with brilliant brightness and sound.
Ӣ\t2 Tim 2:18 Paul is speaking about a lie that had caused an overthrowing of the faith in some believers; this lie was that the resurrection is past already, a false Doctrine regarding the resurrection.

Ӣ\t2 Thess 2:1-2 Paul addresses this issue of the Coming of Christ and our Gathering together to Him and in verse 1 pleads with them to not be troubled by spirit, by word, or by letter as if it was from Paul or any other believer as if the day of Christ is at hand, Paul is clearly talking about the day of Christ when He comes and gathers us to Himself. Paul may have been concerned as to the error that had been of concern in the letter of Timothy above.

Ӣ\t2 Thess 2:3 Paul then states to them to not be deceived by any man, for there comes a falling away (apostasia) first, and that the man of sin, the son of perdition be revealed, if we take into account what paul is saying it appears very clear that he is concerned for the believers and does not want them to be deceived and troubled and wants to assure them that Christ will not come and gather us to Himself until the Apostasia and the son of Perdition is revealed, Paul then goes on to say in verse 8 that Jesus will destroy the son of perdition at His coming.
Ӣ\t2 Thess 2:15 Paul then states to stand fast in the traditions which you have been taught whether by word or epistle, we should also do the same. Stand firm on the word and the epistles.

Ӣ\tRevelations 19:20 also harmonizes with what Paul is saying regarding the Coming of Christ and the destruction of the Beast and the false prophet, it says that both the beast and the false prophet who worked miracles and deceived were cast into the lake of fire.
Ӣ\tDaniel 7:11 also harmonises with the destruction of this person, it states that the beast was slain and his body destroyed and given to the burning flame
Ӣ\tMatthew 24:30-31 Talks about the coming of Christ in the clouds with great power and glory and that He sends His Angels with a Great Awakening Blast and gathering His elect from the four points of Heaven and earth but where is this placed in Matthew 24
Ӣ\tMatthew 24:29-30 Show that His Coming is after the Tribulation, and it also says that it is after the Sun is darkened, the moon does not give its light and the stars fall from heaven, it does not state how long this sequence of events take but it does say after these events.

Ӣ\tMatthew 24:36 says of that day and hour of Christs coming after those events, no one knows, only the Father.
”¢\tLuke 21:28 harmonizes with the same and states that when you see these things begin to happen to look up for Redemption is drawing near, still don’t know the day or hour but it is drawing near.
Ӣ\tLuke 21:31 also states the same again when you see these things come to pass know that the Kingdom of God is near at hand.
Ӣ\tRevelations 6:12-13 also harmonise with the Sun and Moon and Stars, it states the sun became black as sack cloth, the Moon became as blood, the stars of heaven fell onto the earth, these events also takes place just prior to the Lamb coming to the Earth.

Ӣ\tJoel 2;10 also speak of the Sun and Moon and stars and again in Joel 2:31 the sun being turned to darkness, the moon into blood before the Coming of the Great and awesome day of Jehovah, who ever will call on the name of the Lord will be saved

Ӣ\tRev 10:7 It is interesting to note that a statement is made when the 7th Trumpet is about to sound that the Mystery of God should be finished as God has stated to His servants the Prophets, also in Rev 11;15 the 7th Trumpet sounds and when it does it states that there are voices in Heaven saying that the Kingdoms of this world are become the Kingdoms of Christ and He shall reign forever and ever. There are several mysteries that we are still awaiting, the Coming of Christ, when is He coming, the mystery of the resurrection when is it happening, the restoration of Israel, when is it happening, the king sitting on the throne in Jerusalem when is it happening, the reign of Christ over all of the Kingdoms and all of the prophecies concerning the coming of Christ and the Resurrection. When will they be fulfilled?

There are so many other verses and so many other events but I think the ones that have been mentioned present a plumbline of consistency and harmony.

To summarise the Plumbline of verses that I must also use for any doctrine or theory on the Coming of Jesus and the Resurrection that I speak, and that I believe myself, I must always harmonise with the following true points.

Does my Doctrine line up with the following?

Ӣ\tIs Jesus the First Fruit
Ӣ\tIs Jesus the First Born
Ӣ\tIs Jesus the only one that has received the new immortal body until He comes
Ӣ\tIs there the correct order of Resurrection Christ First and afterward those that are Christs at His coming
Ӣ\tIn Christ shall all be made alive

Ӣ\tAre we all be changed in the twinkling of an eye
Ӣ\tAre the dead in Christ risen First then we who are alive will be changed and caught up to meet them in the clouds
Ӣ\tDoes it agree with to be absent from the body is to be present in the Lord
Ӣ\tDoes it agree with that Jesus brings with Him those that have died and that when He comes the dead will be raised and the spirit will be reclothed in the resurrected body of immortality

Ӣ\tDoes it agree with the 2 Resurrections, the Resurrection of the Just, the first Resurrection and also agree with the 2nd Resurrection the Resurrection of the unjust a 1000 year period later
Ӣ\tDoes it agree with the Coming of Christ in the clouds
Ӣ\tDoes it agree with the Great Awakening Trumpet
Ӣ\tDoes it agree with the Trumpet that is sounded as being the last Trumpet
Ӣ\tDoes it agree with the Angels gathering together all of the elect from the 4 points of heaven and earth
Ӣ\tDoes it agree with Jesus raising us at the Last Day

Ӣ\tDoes it agree with what Paul stated regarding that the Coming of Jesus and His gathering us together to Himself will not happen until the Apostasia and the revealing of the Son of Perdition takes place first and that when Jesus comes He will destroy the Son of Perdition
Ӣ\tDoes it agree with Timothy and that the Resurrection has not happened yet
Ӣ\tDoes it agree with the clear events that are described in Matthew that the Tribulation comes and after it is complete there are signs in the sun and moon and stars and that the Coming of the Son of Man when He gathers all to Himself happens sometime after those signs

Ӣ\tDoes it agree with that of that day or hour when Jesus comes after those signs no one knows but God the Father
Ӣ\tDoes it agree that Blessed and Holy is He that is in the First Resurrection and that whoever is in the First Resurrection will be Priests of God and Jesus and will reign on thrones with Christ for 1000 years until the 2nd Resurrection.
Ӣ\tDoes it agree with the 7th Trumpet that when it sounds the Mystery of God is complete and that all the Kingdoms are now Christs and He will reign forever and ever?

May we always harmonise our theory or doctrine with the Word and the Epistles.

I appreciate feedback as we all need to be in Truth and in Harmony with Gods Word.

Thank you for that list of scriptures concerning the doctrine of the resurrection and the confirmation of my short statement.

Hi Budgie
You wrote:
...........................................................
I am fully aware of their ministry of preparation, I eagerly await your reply as to how you present the 2 witnesses as being in the first 3 1/2 years during the time of peace between jews and muslims and how you will present them as fitting in agreement with the timing and sequence that is presented in Revelations 11.
............................................................

To recap quickly on what I have been saying
The "Two witnesses" are the final fulfillment of "Elijah"
They will do what Elijah had done in the past "restore","challenge" and"prepare the way of the lord" in a 3 1/2 year period.

The "day of the lord" is the second half of the 7 year period.It is the period of time God sends Judgement.
Malachi says Elijah comes before the "great and terrible day of the lord". Elijah comes before the "day of the Lord"

During the first 3 1/2 period the witnesses will be a credible witness to the world that "the day of the lord" is coming and the world needs to repent(dressed in sackcloth) or face the consequences.God will not bring Judgement on the world without a world-wide warning first.

The Antichrist will not be able to take power while the Witnesses are alive and the witnesses will preach against false religion and false prophets hence the reference to turning "water into blood" which is what Elijah did when he ordered the Prophets of Baal to be beheaded in the brook of "Kishon" he turned the water into blood

The Two Witnesses Torment those that dwell on the Earth
Why?Because Fire comes out of their mouths.We know that Fire cannot literally come out of a man's mouth,therefore we know that this is symbolic of the "Word of God"
We know that the world is tormented by the prophesy of the Two witnesses.What are these two people saying that causes so much torment and so much rejoicing when they are killed?
They are saying the world is about to be "judged" "the end of the age is coming" and "Jesus is coming back and his winnowing fork is in his hand". What John assumed was going to happen 2000 years ago is about to happen now.
Therefore when they were killed the world wrongly assumed for a short while that the Prophets word was not going to happen and that Christianity was just a load of rubbish They were laughing and joking and rejoicing,just another couple of crackpots predicting the end,ha ha ha

The reference to "rain" and "drought" is the powers that the witnesses have to bring the "bride" back in line with the word and to bring about a world wide revival.The same as Elijah and John The Baptist had,one brought a drought and the other ended a drought but all went out to see them.
The reference to "Plagues" really means blows,to smite,stripe wound which in essence is to bring Judgements.
These are the tools that they use to restore and bring order to God's people.Judgement begins at the house of ......

So while the world is having a right old celebration the Witness rise to heaven beheld by the world and immediately Judgement begins.
The reason that the "Witnesses" John and Elijah are all so deliberately mysterious is that the Holy Spirit is saying read me,study me their is a connected story here I want you to investigate and find a hidden truth,

Yours Staff

I appreciate your reply, I assume you are basing the Day of the Lord as not a day at all but as a long period of time, you have not provided any scriptural evidence for this and as such it can be any period of time when it is actually referred to as a day. Could you please provide scripture, also you have not shown how this is in harmony with Revelations where it discusses the 2 witnesses as being at the same time as the gentiles are trampling the Holy City as well as when the 2 witnesses arise from the dead there is an earthquake in the city 1/10 of the city falls and 7000 men are killed also straight after this is the 7th trumpet, these 2 witnesses are placed in between the 1st and 7th Trumpet.
Could you please harmonise Rev 11.
I would also appreciate it if you could provide the verses that you are referring to as the day of the Lord

YOU SAID
.We know that Fire cannot literally come out of a man's mouth,therefore we know that this is symbolic of the "Word of God"

But going by what the verse states it is clear that whatever this fire is, it is something that devours or destroys their enemies and it states that by this way the enemies must be killed, this killed word means to be killed.
Rev 11:5 And if any man will hurt them, fire proceedeth out of their mouth, and devoureth their enemies: and if any man will hurt them, he must in this manner be killed.

When it refers to rain, waters, blood, I literally see at as just this as there are so many areas in New Testament where these words are literally used as just that.

When Elijah stopped the rain he literally did just that, the rain on the earth literally stopped.

When Moses turned the water into blood He literally did just that.

Rev 11:6 These have power to shut heaven, that it rain not in the days of their prophecy: and have power over waters to turn them to blood, and to smite the earth with all plagues, as often as they will.

YOU STATED
So while the world is having a right old celebration the Witness rise to heaven beheld by the world and immediately Judgement begins.

But this does not agree with what Revelations 11 states as it states the 7th Trumpet as being after the 2 witnesses arise.

Please provide scriptural evidence as to why the 2 witnesses are not in the second 3 1/2 years.
Why can they not be in the second 3 1/2 year period?
I literally believe what scripture clearly states, that the 2 witnesses are present during the same time that the gentiles are trampling the Holy City as Revelations states and I literally see the Day of the Lord as being the Literal Day when Jesus comes to Trample the winepress of the wrath of God when He comes at the literal last day and His saints are raised in the 1st Resurrection.

Look forward to your reply with some clear scriptural support.

Hi Budgie,

Your Qoute:
Day of the Lord as not a day at all but as a long period of time, you have not provided any scriptural evidence for this and as such it can be any period of time when it is actually referred to as a day.

The Scriptural evidence is that when Elijah came in the form of John the baptist,the day of the Lord was an extended period of time.Jesus day lasted years .

you Qoute
s their enemies and it states that by this way the enemies must be killed, this killed word means to be killed.

We can see this when the 3 sets of 50 soldiers come to arrest Elijah and take him.By his "word" the soldiers are "consumed". The "word of God is a two edged sword",a weapon that can kill the word of the enemy.If i have the word of god in my mouth it does'nt mean I have a metal implement in my mouth.This is the same as the fire.Its obviously not literal.The effects of the "fire" may be literal though.The 50 die twice.

you quote:
When it refers to rain, waters, blood, I literally see at as just this as there are so many areas in New Testament where these words are literally used as just that.
When Elijah stopped the rain he literally did just that, the rain on the earth literally stopped

Yes these are literal examples but with John the Baptist he ended the drought and the "rain" started with "Jesus Ministry" once he was Baptised and it was not real rain but symbolic of something spiritual.We use symbols all the time like the bread and wine.The witnesses powers are so they can give spiritual rain and spiritual drought much more important than real water or drought as it saves eternal lives not just earthly.We also have a real temple in Jerusalem in Jesus day but scripture tells us its only a shadow.John the Baptist was Elijah but he did'nt literally kill anyone,he didnt literally stop rain and he didnt literally cause fire to fall.What he did was spiritual.

You Quote:
But this does not agree with what Revelations 11 states as it states the 7th Trumpet as being after the 2 witnesses arise.

As soon as the witnesses arise Judgement begins the same as in the "Noah and Lot" examples there are no earthquakes etc til the witnesses.No judgements from heaven til Gods people are safe.Here we see Jesus using "Pattern".

I have a couple more things I want to answer for you which I will get to in another post.

I think you have a fundamental problem with the way you are looking at Prophesy.You are not understanding that Prophesy is "Pattern" not just a single scripture or a serious of single scriptures put together to form a logical sequence.
Its more simple than that.The 1st and 2nd coming of Elijah when taken as a whole tells us about the last coming of Elijah.
God would never Judge the billions of people on the earth without "giving them a last chance to repent" for even in Jonah's day he mentions how important the "cattle" were in Nineveh.Also the witness to the world has to be credible not "televangelists" that cant be taken seriously.

Yours Staff

Hello Staff member,
Again thanks for your reply and for your ideas, I did ask for scriptural evidence for your ideas, but you did not provide any, much interpretation and added thoughts, you again did not reveal the harmony that is in Revelations 11 as to the exact sequence of events and the placement of events.
Revelations 11 is the chapter that talks about these two witnesses and as such this chapter must first of all clearly be understood and seen as for the timing and sequence of these events, I must agree with Revelations 11 in its wholeness and not try and bring my own thoughts or theories into it, it is said to be in that order.
First of all I will go to Malachi and address the Day of the Lord
Mal 4:1 For, behold, the day cometh, that shall burn as an oven; and all the proud, yea, and all that do wickedly, shall be stubble: and the day that cometh shall burn them up, saith the LORD of hosts, that it shall leave them neither root nor branch.
This day is spoken of in the sense of singular and not plural, Day is singular, Days are plural
And again in 4:3
Mal 4:5 Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the LORD:
Yes I agree that Elijah is coming but I also agree that Elijah is coming for a period of time before that Great Singular Day of the Lord.
There is no reference to the day of the Lord as being 3 ½ years long any where in scripture, reference as that day is always singular.
What I have observed is that you are changing the text from a specific singular day and changing the singular context to plural.
Scripture must be kept in context and in harmony.
Joel refers to the same day of the Lord again a singular day and states very clearly the events before this day
Joe 2:30 And I will shew wonders in the heavens and in the earth, blood, and fire, and pillars of smoke.
Joe 2:31 The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and the terrible day of the LORD come.
Are you saying this day is again days?
Also in the beginning of Joel is also talks about this day of the Lord
Joe 2:1 Blow ye the trumpet in Zion, and sound an alarm in my holy mountain: let all the inhabitants of the land tremble: for the day of the LORD cometh, for it is nigh at hand;
Joe 2:2 A day of darkness and of gloominess, a day of clouds and of thick darkness, as the morning spread upon the mountains: a great people and a strong; there hath not been ever the like, neither shall be any more after it, even to the years of many generations.
Joe 2:3 A fire devoureth before them; and behind them a flame burneth: the land is as the garden of Eden before them, and behind them a desolate wilderness; yea, and nothing shall escape them.
Joe 2:4 The appearance of them is as the appearance of horses; and as horsemen, so shall they run.
Joe 2:5 Like the noise of chariots on the tops of mountains shall they leap, like the noise of a flame of fire that devoureth the stubble, as a strong people set in battle array.
Joe 2:6 Before their face the people shall be much pained: all faces shall gather blackness.
Joe 2:7 They shall run like mighty men; they shall climb the wall like men of war; and they shall march every one on his ways, and they shall not break their ranks:
Joe 2:8 Neither shall one thrust another; they shall walk every one in his path: and when they fall upon the sword, they shall not be wounded.
Joe 2:9 They shall run to and fro in the city; they shall run upon the wall, they shall climb up upon the houses; they shall enter in at the windows like a thief.
Joe 2:10 The earth shall quake before them; the heavens shall tremble: the sun and the moon shall be dark, and the stars shall withdraw their shining:
Joe 2:11 And the LORD shall utter his voice before his army: for his camp is very great: for he is strong that executeth his word: for the day of the LORD is great and very terrible; and who can abide it?
Are you saying that the above judgement is going to be 3 ½ years long?
We always use the following verses for the outpouring of the Spirit but it is also important to use all of the scripture
Joe 2:28 And it shall come to pass afterward, that I will pour out my spirit upon all flesh; and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, your old men shall dream dreams, your young men shall see visions:
Joe 2:29 And also upon the servants and upon the handmaids in those days will I pour out my spirit.
Joe 2:30 And I will shew wonders in the heavens and in the earth, blood, and fire, and pillars of smoke.
Joe 2:31 The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and the terrible day of the LORD come.
Joe 2:32 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the LORD shall be delivered: for in mount Zion and in Jerusalem shall be deliverance, as the LORD hath said, and in the remnant whom the LORD shall call.
It is so important to abide by scripture not our ideas.
I try in all areas of my studies to always agree with what scripture clearly states, I must agree with what scripture states and not try and change to suit my ideas.
I have provided scripture in my answers.
Again when you study the Book of Revelation as it clearly states and overlay the many pictures and symbols you do get the full and clear picture
The Book of Revelations is about the Revealing of Christ and the events that take place shortly before and after.
Staff member you said this to me
Copy I think you have a fundamental problem with the way you are looking at Prophesy.You are not understanding that Prophesy is "Pattern" not just a single scripture or a serious of single scriptures put together to form a logical sequence.
Its more simple than that.The 1st and 2nd coming of Elijah when taken as a whole tells us about the last coming of Elijah.
God would never Judge the billions of people on the earth without "giving them a last chance to repent" for even in Jonah's day he mentions how important the "cattle" were in Nineveh.Also the witness to the world has to be credible not "televangelists" that cant be taken seriously.
Staff member I think it is unreasonable and unfair for you to make this statement to me as you have no idea of my view of prophesy.
I have only spoken scriptural views and have at all times stuck with the sequence of events stated in scripture, I have agreed with the ministry of Elijah and the only difference is the timing and the reference to the day of the Lord as being singular.
You have not seen my views on the Book of Revelations.
I have merely presented Revelations 11 as it so clearly says and I am in total agreeance with what Revelations states.
Rev 11:1 And there was given me a reed like unto a rod: and the angel stood, saying, Rise, and measure the temple of God, and the altar, and them that worship therein.
Rev 11:2 But the court which is without the temple leave out, and measure it not; for it is given unto the Gentiles: and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty and two months.
Rev 11:3 And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.
Rev 11:4 These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth.
Rev 11:5 And if any man will hurt them, fire proceedeth out of their mouth, and devoureth their enemies: and if any man will hurt them, he must in this manner be killed.
Rev 11:6 These have power to shut heaven, that it rain not in the days of their prophecy: and have power over waters to turn them to blood, and to smite the earth with all plagues, as often as they will.
Rev 11:7 And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them.
Rev 11:8 And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.
Rev 11:9 And they of the people and kindreds and tongues and nations shall see their dead bodies three days and an half, and shall not suffer their dead bodies to be put in graves.
Rev 11:10 And they that dwell upon the earth shall rejoice over them, and make merry, and shall send gifts one to another; because these two prophets tormented them that dwelt on the earth.
Rev 11:11 And after three days and an half the Spirit of life from God entered into them, and they stood upon their feet; and great fear fell upon them which saw them.
Rev 11:12 And they heard a great voice from heaven saying unto them, Come up hither. And they ascended up to heaven in a cloud; and their enemies beheld them.
Rev 11:13 And the same hour was there a great earthquake, and the tenth part of the city fell, and in the earthquake were slain of men seven thousand: and the remnant were affrighted, and gave glory to the God of heaven.
Rev 11:14 The second woe is past; and, behold, the third woe cometh quickly.
Rev 11:15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.
Rev 11:16 And the four and twenty elders, which sat before God on their seats, fell upon their faces, and worshipped God,
Rev 11:17 Saying, We give thee thanks, O Lord God Almighty, which art, and wast, and art to come; because thou hast taken to thee thy great power, and hast reigned.
Rev 11:18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.
Rev 11:19 And the temple of God was opened in heaven, and there was seen in his temple the ark of his testament: and there were lightnings, and voices, and thunderings, and an earthquake, and great hail.
Please let us reason and use scriptural proof that is clear and not merely our own theories.
I put this one question to you, in Revelations 20 where it clearly states that this is the First Resurrection and Blessed and Holy is He that takes part in that Resurrection.
Do you believe that this is the First Resurrection clearly immortal bodies as it states or do you believe otherwise?
Do you also believe in Corinthians that Jesus was the First born of the dead ( the first of fruits) and that there is an order to the Resurrection, First Jesus and then afterward all of those of Christ at His coming?
There is only a reference to one singular resurrection of the Just.
I look forward to your reply

Hi Budgie'
The "Day of the Lord"

Ez 13:5Ye have not gone up into the gaps, neither made up the hedge for the house of Israel to stand in the battle on the day of the Lord.
This is referring to Judgment of the Babylons on Jerusalem
which lasted longer than "24 hours"
Sometimes day means year like Isa 34:8.
Paul says in thess 1:5 about times and seasons of the "day of the lord".Seasons is clearly longer than 24 hrs.
In that "day" the lion will lay down with the lamb clearly a general day of peace.
To say that "day" means a 24 hours all the time is not correct.
Jesus walked the Earth longer than a 24hr day and Elijah came before his day not after.Sometimes it refers to an epoch.Are you saying if their is only one resurrection of the Just it must be when the two witnesses are taken?

Yours Staff

Thanks Staff member for your reply

Joel clearly states that the Day of the Lord comes at the time of signs in the sky, and clearly states it as that day.
Are you saying that the three and a half years of the day of the Lord commence at the time of the signs in the sky as it does state that Day and all of Joel speaks clearly about that Day.

Joe 3:13 Put ye in the sickle, for the harvest is ripe: come, get you down; for the press is full, the fats overflow; for their wickedness is great.
Joe 3:14 Multitudes, multitudes in the valley of decision: for the day of the LORD is near in the valley of decision.
Joe 3:15 The sun and the moon shall be darkened, and the stars shall withdraw their shining.
Joe 3:16 The LORD also shall roar out of Zion, and utter his voice from Jerusalem; and the heavens and the earth shall shake: but the LORD will be the hope of his people, and the strength of the children of Israel.
Joe 3:17 So shall ye know that I am the LORD your God dwelling in Zion, my holy mountain: then shall Jerusalem be holy, and there shall no strangers pass through her any more.
Joe 3:18 And it shall come to pass in that day, that the mountains shall drop down new wine, and the hills shall flow with milk, and all the rivers of Judah shall flow with waters, and a fountain shall come forth of the house of the LORD, and shall water the valley of Shittim.
Joe 3:19 Egypt shall be a desolation, and Edom shall be a desolate wilderness, for the violence against the children of Judah, because they have shed innocent blood in their land.
Joe 3:20 But Judah shall dwell for ever, and Jerusalem from generation to generation.
Joe 3:21 For I will cleanse their blood that I have not cleansed: for the LORD dwelleth in Zion.

Also you stated about the times and seasons as if the times and seasons are referring to the Day of the Lord as if again 3 and 1/2 years, but when you read all of this letter and keep it in context and harmony, you will see that it refers to times and seasons before the Day of the Lord.

1Th 5:1 But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you.
1Th 5:2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.
1Th 5:3 For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.
1Th 5:4 But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.
1Th 5:5 Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness.
1Th 5:6 Therefore let us not sleep, as do others; but let us watch and be sober.
1Th 5:7 For they that sleep sleep in the night; and they that be drunken are drunken in the night.
1Th 5:8 But let us, who are of the day, be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love; and for an helmet, the hope of salvation.
1Th 5:9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,
1Th 5:10 Who died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with him.

It is very clear that Paul is referring to the Day of the Lord when Jesus comes to gather to himself those in Christ and to also at the same time trample the Winepress of the Wrath of God.

If you will study the verses 9 and look at the specific Greek word that is used and then look at exactly where that same word is used in Revelations you will notice that it is specifically used only 6 times in the Book of Revelations and refers to the Day of Christs Coming and Him trampling the Wine Press of the Wrath of God, it commences on the Day of His Coming and on the Day of the First Resurrection as stated in Revelations 20.

When you study all of the Thessalonians you will see that Paul is always referring to that one Glorious Day of His Coming and our Salvation and also that same Day is the Day He destroys the Antichrist.

Thanking you for your involvement in this discussion
Look forward to your reply

Just a reminder that the reason I started this post was for the purpose of seeing if there is one very clear scripture that supports a PreTribulation Resurrection.

I have read through all of the brislliant posts but as yet have not seen a reply with a very clear scripture that supports a PreTribulation Resurrection.
I have provided very clear scriptural Post Tribulation Verses.

Matthew 24 clearly states that after the Signs in the Heavens Jesus will come in the clouds with a great awakening blast of a trumpet, a great shout, the angels will gather together all of those in Christ from Heaven and earth, Corinthians agrees with this as well as Thessalonians as well as Revelations.

Revelations 19 and 20 place it in exactly the same sequence and even states very clearly that this is the 1st Resurrection, it can not be any clearer, it is either the 1st resurrection or it is not.

Jesus stated He was the first to be raised in the immortal body and that afterwards at His Coming (not comings) He will raise all of those in him in the exact same immortal body,This is the First Resurrection, the Resurrection of the Just.

Lets all study the scriptures and keep them in Harmony, there can only be one clear and truthful doctrine as to the Coming of Christ and the First Resurrection, the Resurrection of the Just.
Let us accept what the verses are so clearly declaring.

I look forward to replies

Hi Budgie,
?
Ez 13:5Ye have not gone up into the gaps, neither made up the hedge for the house of Israel to stand in the battle on the day of the Lord.
This is referring to Judgment of the Babylons on Jerusalem
which lasted longer than "24 hours"
?
In that day the lion will lay down with the lamb

John came before the "day of the Lord" as was the Prophesy.
We know that "the day of the lord" referred to Jesus 1st coming .
That day began with his Baptism and lasted longer than 24hrs.
We know this because Jesus said to his mother my time has not yet come when asked to do a miracle.His time began with his Baptism
I will look at the 3 1/2 yrs again from another angle
Yours Staff

Thanks again for your reply staff member, you seem to focus quite strongly on the 2 witnesses being in the first 3 1/2 years of the 7 years and are constantly referring to Elijah and John as being in that first 3 1/2 years but there is no scriptural evidence suggesting that they are in the first 3 1/2 years. Revelations 11 gives a very strong and clear indication when the 2 witnesses are in their ministry and it is when the Gentiles are given power to trample the holy city, both at the same time,also there are very clear signs of Christs return after their being raised from the dead as the 7th Trumpet is sounded and this is when the kingdoms become Christ, there is no more discussion of a 3 1/2 years after them being raised, when they are raised it says that the 2nd Woe is past and the 3rd is coming quickly.

John came declaring the Messiah when Jesus came, it does not say that John came declaring for 3 1/2 years then Jesus came and it does not say John came declaring for 7 years and then Jesus came.
Why cant the 2 witnesses be in the last 3 1/2 years as Revelations 11 clearly states?

This would clearly portray the 2 witnesses being there calling for repentance the same time when many are forsaking truth and worshipping the Beast, there is a battle between the all powerful God working through the 2 witnesses against the beast and Satan, God states that He will reveal the heart of man.

also it gives the same pattern as Moses and Aaron declaring the Power of God at the same time Pharoah and his wizards are producing the powers of satan, God is bring judgement on Egypt at the same time that He is bringing deliverance to the Children of Israel and at the end He brings deliverance through the Blood of the Lamb over the doorposts, then Israel is delivered from Egypt.

The plagues and signs of Moses are very similar to that of the 2 witnesses.

Also you refer to the Day of the Lord as being 3 1/2 years long but there is no scriptural evidence of it being 3 1/2 years long and that this Day of the Lord begins in the first 3 1/2 years of the 7.

Whenever the Day of the Lord is mentioned it is always mentioned as a Day that begins on that Day, not as a day that lasts 3 1/2 years.

If it stated days then it would be different but it is Day or That Day.

Joel gives a very clear picture of that day of immense judgement that begins on the day after the signs in the heavens
Joel says that in those days the people will be gathered in Jehoshaphat for the time of decision and judgement of the Day of the Lord, it does not say that they will be in the valley for 3 1/2 years but it says quite clearly that they will be there for the Day of the Lord which begins on a specific Day.

Can you please answer these following questions?

If Revelations 20 so very clearly states that the First Resurrection takes place right at the End when the Bride has finally made Herself ready, and she has finally been given the linen which is the Righteousness of the Saints and this is around the time that the marriage supper is about to begin, How can there be another Resurrection earlier?

Are you saying that what the scriptures is saying as being the First resurrection is not the First Resurrection?

Also Jesus stated that He was the First to be risen in the New immortal body and that afterwards when he comes all in Christ will be made alive which is clearly the Resurrection and the same Resurrection that is spoken of in Thessalonians and Corinthians and many other books.
Where in scripture does it state that there are any other Resurrections in the IMMORTAL BODY.

Surely the First Resurrection means Just that The First Resurrection.
Many say that the Rapture is a special resurrection but when you read the scripture it clearly shows that us being caught up into the clouds takes place when the Resurrection takes place (the dead are raised we are changed and then we are caught up (raptured ) into the clouds to meet Jesus.

The Rapture is us being caught up not being raised in our new immortal body??

There is only Resurrection of the Just and Resurrection of the unjust mentioned in scripture and when you look at all of the scriptures Old Testament and New Testament and see the First Resurrection as being the Resurrection of the Just and that it takes place at the Coming of Jesus when the Antichrist is destroyed, when the Bride has finally made herself ready and that she is clothed in the righteousness of the ((saints))all scriptures are in harmony.

Revelations gives a very clear picture of the 2 Resurrections.

Thank you for discussing the issues.

Hello staff member sorry I forgot to answer your question regarding the 2witnesses you asked me if I was saying that the raising of the 2witnesses from the dead is the resurrection of the just or the first resurrectin.
My answer to that is no I do not
I believe as scripture states very clearly as in revelations
This is the first resurrection and I do believe this first resurrection is the resurrection of the just as we are all justified in christ
Jesus is declared as being the first born of the dead and that he is the first of fruits and that afterwards at his coming will all be made alive in their new immortal bodies
I do believe that there have been many resurrections before jesus death and after his death but none of them have been declared as being in an immortal body
Lazarus died again
I do believe that revelations is like every other prophetic book in that the events and images are overlapping and create a fuller picture especially the end parts of the prophetic
An example of this is book of daniel
I do believe and accept exactly what rev 11says as to the timing of the 2witnesses so close to the 7th trumpet and so close to the kingdoms becoming christs
I do believe they are there and are raised from the dead sometime close before the coming of christ
Of that day and hour I do not know
I hope this answers your question

Hi Justin,
I would agree that the witnesses are Christian and the ministry is world wide,
Are we then saying it wont be successful I dont think so,
Yours staff

It is important to remember that most of the prophecies that have been in scripture have always related to events and people that are in the Middle Eastern and Jerusalem area.

As to the two witnesses it clearly states that their ministry is for 3 1/2 years and that they are ministering in the holy city as reference is made to the gentiles trampling the holy city also they are both killed and their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified, this is definitely Jerusalem.

Also they of the people and kindreds and tongues and nations shall see their dead bodies three days and an half, and shall not suffer their dead bodies to be put in graves.
Clearly speaking of two dead bodies and graves.

Also after three days and an half the Spirit of life from God entered into them, and they stood upon their feet; and great fear fell upon them which saw them. And they heard a great voice from heaven saying unto them, Come up hither. And they ascended up to heaven in a cloud; and their enemies beheld them.

As to them being the two olive trees we must always remember that we were grafted into the True Olive Tree

Rom_11:17 And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert graffed in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree;

Rom_11:24 For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert graffed contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be graffed into their own olive tree?

We have been grafted into the Olive Tree the commonwealth of Israel and both Jew and Gentile have become one in Christ Jesus.

As to the lampstand we must also remember that this lampstand is the Light of God, the Glory of God the presence of God and is something to be treasured, there is a warning in the letters to the churches and that is in Rev 2:5 Remember therefore from whence thou art fallen, and repent, and do the first works; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will remove thy candlestick out of his place, except thou repent.

So it can be seen that these two witnesses have a very special ministry in Jerusalem and they reveal the Glory and Presence of God in their Ministry and are two very special Ministers of the Commonwealth of Israel that we have been grafted into.

something to think about.

I was reading an interesting sermon by Charles Spurgeon this week where He was so burdened by how far the Church in his day had drifted away from the truthful teachings and doctrine of Paul and Jesus.

Charles started to spend some deep and long hours in researching, reading many books and he was amazed that the Church had drifted so far from the original doctrines that were so much an important part of Pauls ministry as well as Jesus.

Charles had realised that there was a great drifting from the original Doctrine on the Resurrection.

Pauls whole doctrine was focused on the Doctrine that Jesus was Resurrected in a New Heavenly Immortal body and that if this is not true then our Faith was all in vain.

Paul also spoke strongly on the Doctrine of the Resurrection of the Believer in Christ and that if this was not so then all is again in vain.

Paul spoke a Doctrine of the Resurrection of the Just and also a Resurrection of the unjust, the same as Jesus and the same as the Old Testament teaches, and again the same as found in Revelations.

How many churches today preach the Doctrine of the Resurrection of the Just and the Resurrection of the unjust?

How many churches today speak as Paul did in that He strived in his walk so that he may attain to the Resurrection when Jesus comes with those that have died?

How many today make it our crown to see others also standing in their new immortal bodies on that day when Jesus comes?

Today there are many doctrines that are not based on the Doctrines of Jesus and Paul.

One example of this is the word harpazo which is only used in the New Testament 13 times, it means to be taken by force , it refers to satan snatching away what has been sown in mans heart, when men tried to take Jesus by force, when the wolf tries to snatch the sheep,when Paul was taken by force by the military, Phillip when he was taken away from the eunech, Paul when he was taken up to the third heaven and Jesus when He was taken up to Heaven.

It is only used once in relation to what takes place after the Resurrection of the dead and after our bodies have been changed to immortal, it is in reference to how Jesus takes us to meet Him in the clouds.

The Doctrine must always be as Paul and Jesus taught, it is a Doctrine of the Resurrection.

Paul never taught any Doctrine on the word Harpazo, not anywhere in scripture does Paul make it his doctrine.

Paul always focused on the Resurrection of the Just and attaining to that Resurrection.

I would encourage all to search the scriptures and focus on the true Doctrine of the Resurrection.

All is then in Harmony

After 2732 views there has still not been one clear scriptural verse of scripture given to support a Resurrection that takes place prior to the Tribulation, Pauls clear words are that concerning the Coming of Christ and His gathering of us believers to Himself, that this day will not come until the Apostasy comes first and the revealing of the Antichrist whom Jesus will destroy at the brightness of His Coming.
Jesus will raise us at the Last Day, at the Last Trumpet, at the Shout of an Angel, after the signs in Heaven and He will Deliver us from the Wrath to come when He tramples the WinePress of the Wrath of God. He will raise us in the First Resurrection, the Resurrection of the Just and we will be with Him in His Likeness forever.
Praise God for His Word is Truth and His Word is in complete Harmony.

Jesus is Coming back for His Body of Believers, His sacrifice was for the Sins of all the World from the beginning of Creation till He comes.
Thank You Jesus for You are Faithful.

All scripture is in complete Harmony when you see it as a Singular coming and a singular first resurrection which is the Resurrection of the Just and 1000yesrs later the second and last resurrection.

Hi budgie,

budgie wrote :/// After 2732 views there has still not been one clear scriptural verse of scripture given to support a Resurrection that takes place prior to the Tribulation///

I agree with you : I believe that the tares and wheat will grow togather untill the time of harvest.

what is your understanding of the verses that speak of 'one will be taken and the other one left' ?
I do not have a real clear understanding myself on those verses.

Hello Proud Papa

Your question was

what is your understanding of the verses that speak of 'one will be taken and the other one left' ?
I do not have a real clear understanding myself on those verses.

My reply

I did a thread not that long ago that speaks very clearly using scripture on this very subject.

It is worth looking at and certainly makes it much clearer, I am sure that it will help you

your question

Brother aren't you getting a little obsessed with this thread. I think most of the forum knows that the pre trib rapture cannot be supported from Scripture.

.just an observation, bro.

My reply

Thanks Bear Master for your reply

It is a very interesting and challenging theory and draws many visits to the thread for this very same reason.

There are many now that I know of in the Churches that are starting to ask questions regarding End Times and about all of the different and confusing theories and arguments regarding the Coming of Christ.

Many want clear scriptural proof as Scripture is profitable for Doctrine and Teaching.

Many say that they are confused and just want the Truth.

I have seen many now starting to search the scriptures and are realising that what they were taught was not scriptural and was not in harmony.

I am not obsessed,but I am very concerned at how there are so many doctrines within the Church today that are not scriptural and only bring division.

If the resurrection before the Tribulation is so true then there has to be clear scriptural verses to support this.

I have for the last year listened to many respected Pastors on the Pre Trib Resurrection and there has not been one that has given clear scriptural verses, only contradicting thoughts and ideas.

There are many Pastors and churches that are realising the error and are coming back in line with scripture, trusting in Jesus no matter what comes, and are believing the Truth that the Resurrection takes place after the Tribulation as Scripture clearly states.

It is so important today in the times that we live for all to search the scriptures so that we may know the Truth.

There can only be one Truthful Doctrine to the Resurrection of the Saints at the Coming of Christ.

There is only one truthful doctrine to Salvation in Jesus and that doctrine is so vital, it is no different to the Doctrine of Resurrection.

Hebrews stated that the Doctrine of Resurrection was a foundational teaching.

I truly desire to reason with scripture the Doctrine of the Resurrection.

I am waiting for a defender of the {Resurrection before the Tribulation{ to give a clear scriptural verse not ideas.

Scripture is profitable for Doctrine and teaching.

Sorry,but you,nor any other adherant of a postrib rapture have ever,ever,proved a thing.
In fact the verses you use,when examined,indicate otherwise.

Look up "apostacy" apostacia=to leave....depart(as in rapture)
You just indicated in your post that there will be a departure,then a revealing,then the GT.
IOW,you inadvertantly declare a pretrib rapture with this,and also,every time you quote Mat 24.

....and afterwards they are immediately raptured,but not with the dead in Christ.

That is because,both the dead in Christ and "the number no man can number"(those left behind murdered by AC),are ALREADY IN HEAVEN.

IOW,you painted yourself into a corner my friend.

You logic is sound.
Why would you support postrib without any bible references?

Rev 19
mat 24
mat 25
plus the others that you have been shown.
God bless

Rev 20
4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

I am not being ugly or rude but I do not see how you can form fit this to fit and then accuse somebody of being out of harmony??

That clearly,clearly,clearly indicates that the first resurrection INCLUDES those in rev 7 (the martyers killed by AC.
a very simple foolproof reference

It CAN NOT mean a resurection after the GT
God bless

From your challenge at the first part:

"Still waiting for a clear verse that states a pretrib resurrection

Here is a very clear verse on a post trib gathering

Mat 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days
Mat 24:31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other."

UH,hate to tell you this,but "they" are gathered FROM HEAVEN,.....By Angels(as in they must be in heaven during the GT)

Did you realize you are inadvertently supporting pretrib?

"Again the view of a pre trib rapture is an invention of Western theologians. And it lacks in New Testament support."

I can not help you there,as you are taking a biblical position into some bizarre world I do not live in.

I can only report the word of God to you.

You should ask yourself why postribs always end up in unscriptural false accusations.

"There is not even the hint of a pre trib rapture. At least, none that I discern from reading these accounts."

The saints are gathered from heaven in "these accounts"
Maybe logic would tell us they are not on earth to be gathered according to some guys belief?

Can you show me any dead raised from heaven?
Graves?

So now you have been shown 1 thes 4 is not even close to mat 24.
Got that from the bible my friend.(insert smiley here)
God bless

My view is pretrib bride/groom centered.
I only recently looked through the window (bride and groom window)

I can only assume the temple thing.
(I just recently discussed with someone the arks presence in the HOH during Jesus 'times)...I did not know of the controversy.

And then He will send forth the angels and gather together His elect, from the four winds, from the farthest end of the EARTH, to the fathers and of heaven.

Literal Greek says "extremity of land till extremity of heaven."

Earth is a ball,so I could easily put the extremity as "atmosphere" since it is part of the earth.

But either way we have 2 heavens vs 1 earth,but you choose to go with earth and totally ignore heaven.
Both refererces have angels gathering and not Jesus.
Both have no dead raised,nor graves.

Nope,there is literally no way those 2 references are 1 thes 4.
Like I said postrib has not one verse from scripture supporting it.

"I.might add the persecuted church dies not brace this view as they see themselves vs ;) ed to suffer for Christ."

sorry but I will not ask a 'persecuted church' permission to read what my bible says.I find no safety in the council of men.
How can you accuse others of following some historic writing and then constrain yourself to the fallibility of men?If the 'persecuted church' believes in universalism,will that be OK also?

2 resurrection scenario?
Thats a new one to me.

unless you are saying the resurrection after the 1000k is the rapture?

Concerning the origination of the pretrib rapture;
Is the bible old enough?
I hope you can defend your position using the bible.I don't bite on that sillyness you post and seem to know nothing about.

You have trusted in man.THEY told you that origination mess.MEN have convinced you that those virgins,the remnant bride believers that await their king are faint,weak,nominal Christians looking for "the easy way out"

Why do you act like the pretrib verses and the "escape" verses do not exist?.Jesus said "pray that you be counted WORTHY to escape the things that are about to come upon the world and stand before the son of man"
Was Jesus correct?

Here is one for you;
What is your interpretation of the 10 virgin parable of mat25?

Oil=?
Virgin=?
Groom=?
Buy=?
door shut=?
"went out to meet"=?
tarried=?
What was normally transferable,that,at that time was not?

Hello bearmaster and psalm1 sorry I have not read or replied to the recent posts, I have done a printout and am on nightshift and will endeavour to read and reply with scriptural evidence.
It is good to have a discussion going again, here is some food for thought while I am studying your posts

The very clear Doctrine that is found in Scripture that is in Harmony is as follows.

There is a Resurrection that takes place at the Coming of Jesus and
There is a resurrection that takes place at the end of the 1000 years while Jesus is Present and Reigning.

Jesus speaks clearly of His Coming (singular)
Jesus speaks very clearly about the Resurrection (singular) of believers

Jesus speaks very clearly of the Resurrection (singular) of the Just and
The resurrection (singular) of the unjust

Jesus speaks very clearly of the gathering together of all of the Elect at His Coming and what events takes place prior to His Coming (singular)

Paul also speaks very clearly of Jesus Coming (singular)
Paul also speaks very clearly on the Resurrection (singular) that takes place at Jesus Coming

Paul speaks very clearly that Jesus will gather us to Him at His Coming
Paul speaks very clearly that at the Resurrection of us in Christ we will then be caught up to Him

What beautiful Harmony

One very clear picture that has appeared to me in my studies of late on the Coming of Christ and our gathering together to Him by the means of being caught up to Him at the Resurrection is that the words (gathering or gather) and the word (caught up) are normal Greek words.

These normal Greek words are used in various places in the New Testament, and are used in relation to man doing the action, good and bad and also speaks of God doing the action.

Math 11;12 the violent harpazo, math 13:19 the wicked one harpazo, John 6:15 the people Harpazo, John 10:12 the wolf Harpazo, Acts 23:10 the soldiers Harpazo.
This word is not special in relation to man and the wolf or satan.

Jesus does not use the word Harpazo once in relation to His Coming or the Resurrection.

What makes these normal words so special is when they are used in relation to something that is miraculous, something that is being done by Gods Power.

An example of this is when the miraculous Resurrection takes place God also by His own Power gathers us and catches us up to Himself into the clouds, it is all by His Power and cannot be accomplished by mans power.

Paul was caught up into the heaven, Jesus was caught up into heaven, Phillip was caught away, all of these were done by the Power of God.
Why do many focus on the Harpazo and not on the gathering, why make the Harpazo a doctrine and not the gathering?
Paul only mentioned the word Harpazo once in all of his letters in relation to the Resurrection, but he speaks many, many times on the Coming of Jesus and the Resurrection.

Both the Harpazo and the gathering are normal words but when the Focus of Doctrine is on the Coming of Christ, and the Resurrection of the Believers then the Harpazo and the Gathering have meaning and power.

It is the Coming of Christ and the Resurrection that takes place first then the gathering and being caught up.
Lets keep the Doctrine of Jesus and Paul, the Doctrine of the Coming of Jesus and the Resurrection of the Saints and then the Gathering together and being caught up to Him in the clouds.

The Harpazo and gathering together will not take place until the Resurrection of the Dead and the Changing of those alive into the New Immortal bodies.

Let’s declare the Doctrine of Resurrection.
The power of God to Resurrect and gather us to Himself.

Well if nothing else, this thread has brought me a lot of confusion....

Yes it is true brother Billpro

There is much confusion today because there is not one clear doctrinal message preached on the Resurrection of the Just and of the Unjust.

If the Doctrine of the Resurrection were preached and the Doctrine of Christs Coming (singular) there would be great unity.

There are many varying views.

much to look at and to be aware of

budgie..Yes it is true brother Billpro

There is much confusion today because there is not one clear doctrinal message preached on the Resurrection of the Just and of the Unjust.

If the Doctrine of the Resurrection were preached and the Doctrine of Christs Coming (singular) there would be great unity.

There are many varying views.

much to look at and to be aware of

"He traces from the beginning with the Jesuits (Lacunza), Irving (the Irvingites), the Tractarian Movement (Cardinal John Newman), the Oxford Movement, Darby and the Brethren. It reads like a detective story and it is quite short, (48 pages), complete with notes."

Yes, except Lacunza had a partner of the same conviction to publish it as well at about the same time, and these are the real facts. I went also to the source on a different path, and came to the same result. That's why you have to study in order to understand. Many movements got infiltrated by the same source, in order to make you more "future compatible" in a endtimes roman empire sense of the word than you think you are,

pre-trib to ruin your faith in the end times, downsizing KJV to make you not understand what God says, and Sun Day vs Sabbath to change the times and the seasons. Are you catholic yet? Watch out, maybe already more than you think. These people have very long term strategies, even if you're too young to detect them.

Still waiting for anyone to interpret this
Super simple. Should be easy.

What is your interpretation of the 10 virgin parable of mat25?

Oil=?
Virgin=?
Groom=?
Buy=?
door shut=?
"went out to meet"=?
tarried=?
What was normally transferable,that,at that time was not?

You have done well in your responses to date with Psalm1 and have responded with good balanced scriptural evidence, and thought provoking responses.

It is true we do live and walk on this earth and many are buried on this earth.
When Jesus gathers the elect from the 4 points of Heaven and earth He does just that.
Jesus brings with Him those who sleep with Him from Heaven and also gathers to Him those that are alive on earth at the time and also the dead bodies are raised and reunited with their spirits.
All of us will be incorruptibly clothed in our new bodies.

I also enjoyed the post of the book on pretrib history.

Thank you

Hello Psalm1

I will try and respond to some of your posts that you have placed in a clear and scriptural way.

First I do not support any pretrib views in my posts
you said that I inadvertently support pretrib in my posts

My reply

At this very point in time there are no souls in heaven apart from Jesus that have the New Immortal Heavenly Body, the body we will receive when Jesus Comes again.

Evidence

1 Cor 15:21 By Christ came the Resurrection of the dead
1 Cor 15:22 In Christ shall all be made alive
1 Cor 15 :23 There is an order to the Resurrection to being made alive
1 Cor 15:23 Christ First
1 Cor 15:23 Afterwards all those that are Christs at His Coming

As you have just seen there is an order to the Resurrection It is one resurrection that started with Christ and it is completed when Christ returns and we are all raised.

There are no other Resurrections in that Order
Christ First and afterwards all of those that are Christs at His Coming.

One Resurrection, Jesus and Paul as well of John also speak of a singular Resurrection, they spoke the doctrine of the Resurrection of the just and also the unjust, in that exact order.

Just first unjust last.

Jesus and Paul always speak of the Resurrection of the Just
as a singular event not as a plural event
Resurrection of the Just not Resurrections of the Just.

Let me again remind you that there are no souls in heaven in their new immortal bodies except Jesus.

This is also proven to be true in 1 Thess 4:14

Jesus brings with Him those who sleep (those who have died)
and when Jesus comes the dead will be raised first, this shows very strongly that there are no resurrected bodies in heaven because Jesus states He brings with Him those that have died and Their dead bodies will rise first incorruptible and immortal.

Their new immortal bodies will be reunited with their spirits and we also who are alive will be changed immortal

Praise God.

The Resurrection of the Just is a one time event that takes place at the Last Trumpet, at the shout of the Archangel, at the last day, at the Coming of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, in the Clouds and we will be gathered to him by His Force and Power, by His Harpazo.

This is the First Resurrection and Blessed and Holy that Has part in this Resurrection for we will be Priests to God and Jesus Christ and will reign with Him forever.

Thank You Jesus.

Revelations 20 also shows very clearly that the 2nd Resurrection at the end of the 1000 yr reign is a singular event, one resurrection of the unjust.

What is true for the Resurrection of the Just is also true for the resurrection of the unjust

They are each singular events at a set time by God.

Hello Psalm1
You said that I should look up the apostasy and you said the apostasy is the rapture

My reply

Apostasy (apostasia G646 ) is a totally different word and also meaning to
Rapture (Harpazo G726 )

Apostasy is a word that means to depart from and is used in verses Acts 21:21, 2 Thess 2:3, 2 Chronicles 29:19, and Jeremiah 29:32 and Joshua 22:22

In all of the above verses this word is used in the context of turning away from Truth, to Rebel, to Transgress the law and to Transgress against God and to turn to a lie.

It is a word where a person has made a decision and in his own power has walked away.

Harpazo is a word that is used in all of the verses as being seized, being captured, being taken or moved and in all verses it is being done by another person, not by ones self.

When Jesus Harpazos us He takes us by force after we are Resurrected, we cannot ascend by our own strength or Power it is the Power of God.

But to keep it all in context let us look at 2 Thess2

Paul always clearly describes the error and always exhorts us

2Th 2:1 And, brothers, we entreat you, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and of our gathering together to Him,
2Th 2:2 for you not to be quickly shaken in the mind, nor to be disturbed, neither through a spirit, nor through speech, nor through letter, as through us, as if the Day of Christ has come.
2Th 2:3 Do not let anyone deceive you in any way, because that Day will not come unless first comes the falling away, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition,

Paul tells us what must happen before Christ will come and before we are gathered to Him

Paul tells us there is an apostasy, Paul then describes this apostasy

Paul talks about the deceiver and the apostasy (the turning away from Truth, turning to a lie)

2Th 2:9 His coming is according to the working of Satan in all power and miraculous signs and lying wonders,
2Th 2:10 and in all deceit of unrighteousness in those being lost, because they did not receive the love of the truth in order for them to be saved.
2Th 2:11 And because of this, God will send to them a working of error, for them to believe the lie,
2Th 2:12 that all may be judged, those not believing the truth, but who have delighted in unrighteousness.

Did you see the lie? did you see the apostasy?

Paul then commends us as believers

2Th 2:13 But we ought to thank God always concerning you, brothers, beloved by the Lord, because God chose you from the beginning to salvation in sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth,
2Th 2:14 to which He called you through our gospel, to obtain the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ.
2Th 2:15 So, then, brothers, stand firm and strongly hold the teachings you were taught, whether by word or by our letter.
2Th 2:16 But may our Lord Himself, Jesus Christ, and our God and Father, the One having loved us and having given everlasting comfort and good hope by grace,
2Th 2:17 encourage your hearts, and may He establish you in every good word and work.

Let us believe the Truth, don't believe a lie, trust in Jesus, trust in His Word encourage each other

Do not be deceived for Jesus will not Come and will not gather us to Himself until (the falling away from Truth and the Son of Perdition is revealed) comes First.

Do not believe that the Harpazo is Apostasy and do not believe that the Apostasy is Harpazo

Two totally different words with two totally different meanings.

Trust in Jesus and in His Patience

"You said that I should look up the apostasy and you said the apostasy is the rapture"

Never said either one.

I said apostacia in the GREEK means "departure,leave"

It COULD be the rapture
It COULD not.

My point is not a "smoking gun"

That whole "apostacy" debate is a NON-ARGUMENT

Have you ever actually sat down and just conversed with somebody?

The point of showing you a broader window is so you can see for yourself you are overworking non issues.I can not understand why you are seemingly not allowed to look up a word ??? .

Re psalm1

Thanks for your reply psalm1 regarding the apostasy

Yes I do actually talk and share with many many other believers regarding the return of Christ and I enjoy the discussions just as much as I am with you.

I have been looking at all sides

again my reply to the apostasy is as follows

Paul states that Jesus will not be coming and will not be gathering us to Him, including Paul until first comes the apostasy (and) the revealing of the son of perdition

Paul then goes into detail and actually describes the apostasy and also the revealing of the son of perdition

Paul states that the apostasy is

2Th 2:7 For the mystery of lawlessness already is working, only he is holding back now, until it comes out of the midst.
2Th 2:8 And then "the Lawless One" will be revealed, "whom" "the Lord" "will consume" "by the spirit of His mouth," and will bring to nought by the brightness of His presence. Isa. 11:4
2Th 2:9 His coming is according to the working of Satan in all power and miraculous signs and lying wonders,
2Th 2:10 and in all deceit of unrighteousness in those being lost, because they did not receive the love of the truth in order for them to be saved.
2Th 2:11 And because of this, God will send to them a working of error, for them to believe the lie,
2Th 2:12 that all may be judged, those not believing the truth, but who have delighted in unrighteousness.

As you can see, the apostasy is turning away from truth and following or believing a lie

Paul then commends us and says to us

2Th 2:15 So, then, brothers, stand firm and strongly hold the teachings you were taught, whether by word or by our letter.
2Th 2:16 But may our Lord Himself, Jesus Christ, and our God and Father, the One having loved us and having given everlasting comfort and good hope by grace,
2Th 2:17 encourage your hearts, and may He establish you in every good word and work.

Paul wants us to stand firm, and hold strongly onto the teachings

Re psalm1

Thanks for your replies psalm1

I enjoy this website very much and enjoy looking at all sides and also enjoy what Paul spent hours doing and that is reasoning, I certainly do not know all and I do know that there are many mindsets.

I have seen whole churches change from pretrib to postrib after all elders and members started to work together and study scripture.

I have also seen many pastors of 30 years and more change from pretrib to postrib, especially those working in China, north Korea and other persecuted countries where they are killed daily for their belief, they surely do remain faithful until death and are certainly not looking for any earthly fleshly treasures or tickle the ears doctrines

May we still enjoy our talks and searching, very challenging but also rewarding

I Love you brother as a brother in Christ and do hope that this does not hinder our walk.

Hello Psalm1
I thought you had posted this on 2014/3/17

Psalm1 post
Sorry,but you,nor any other adherant of a postrib rapture have ever,ever,proved a thing.
In fact the verses you use,when examined,indicate otherwise.

Look up "apostacy" apostacia=to leave....depart(as in rapture)
You just indicated in your post that there will be a departure,then a revealing,then the GT.
IOW,you inadvertantly declare a pretrib rapture with this,and also,every time you quote Mat 24.

Budgie reply
I thought by the above you were telling me to look it up and that you were saying that the apostasy is the rapture as it was put in brackets.

I thought you then said that I was inadvertently then saying that this apostasy is the departure and that I was speaking pretrib

But I was clearly saying Apostasy not rapture, posttrib not pretrib

The Harpazo and the Apostasy are 2 different words, no similarities.

Paul was (not) saying that before the Coming of Jesus and our gathering to Him can happen there must first come the rapture and the revealing of the son of Perdition.

This does not make good English or greek sentence structure, Jesus has to come first so that we can be resurrected and gathered to Him.

Paul said that before Jesus comes (AND) before we are gathered to him there must first come the Apostasy (AND) the revealing of the Son of Perdition.

First is the Apostasy AND the revealing of the Son of Perdition.

The Coming (and) our gathering are linked together the same as the conditions of Apostasy (and) the Revealing of the Son of Perdition are linked together

There cannot be any departure of the saints or any resurrection and rapture of the saints until Jesus first comes, and as Paul said Jesus will not come until first comes the departure from truth Apostasy and the revealing of the master of lies, the son of perdition.

Await your response

"I have seen whole churches change from pretrib to postrib after all elders and members started to work together and study scripture."

Postrib is scripturally impossible.That is WHY they omit the pretrib verses and make rev 20,and mat 24 say what they do not.
I can easily,easily defend pretrib using the word and debunk postrib.
This is why you will never see postrib adherants "leave home" without their extra biblical material."darby,Lahaye,Jesuits,1830," etc are all rabbit trails and even fabrications.
IOW they do all that they can to carry the discussion away from the word.
It is present in every single debate.

They used to use margaret mcdonald until I pointed out she was postrib.They never investigated it,and never will investigate the writings of the early church,or the FACT that the catholics burned most of the early writings,leaving you guys with catholic guides to steer you into a belief system.

Harpozo=caught up
Apostacia=depart

So,again you can not look at it objectively.
Yes,it COULD MEAN from the truth
Yes,it COULD MEAN to simply depart.
I have no dog in that hunt,only pointing out you refuse objectivity.
Think about it.my position does not even remotely hinge on either scenario.You need it desperately to say falling away.I do not.There already is one right now.It changes nothing at all for me.
You think there will be a further falling away? Guess what. that is a safe bet.I just sit in amazement at you guys lack of objectivity.
Neither does the AC revealed first.So we see the AC for one day,or whatever time frame and then the rapture.Again no game changer.

"There cannot be any departure of the saints or any resurrection and rapture of the saints until Jesus first comes"

And yet One has already happened with the OT saints and Jesus already did and is even called the 1st res.

"But I was clearly saying Apostasy not rapture, posttrib not pretrib

The Harpazo and the Apostasy are 2 different words, no similarities."

You have nothing here.It is a non argument.
Look at acts 1;11
Jesus is "harpazoed" do you see that word anywhere?
No,infact a diff word is used.
So,under your logic,Jesus stayed on the ground due to postrib doctrinal issues?

Do you see the folly of these rabbit trails?
The non-harmony?
And yet postrib logic has these issues as key doctrinal points.

I do enjoy our reasoning PSALM1

I simply believe what Paul states and am happy with what Paul states, he is talking future as he is talking about the Coming of Christ and also the gathering to Him of the believers including Paul.

This has certainly not happened yet so it is all future.

Paul also states that the future events of the apostasy including the revealing of the son of perdition are events that must happen before Christs Coming, but Paul then goes on to say that when Jesus does come during these events that Jesus will destroy the Son of Perdition.

That is a very clear picture, Jesus destroys the son of perdition at His Coming and our gathering after the apostasy and the revealing of the son of perdition.

The son of perdition is destroyed.

Yes Jesus was Harpazo after His Resurrection the same as we will be Harpazo after our resurrection

Yes it is true there were bodies raised out of the graves when Jesus was raised but it does not say that they were raised in the new immortal bodies, it just states that
Mat 27:52 And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose,
Mat 27:53 And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.

It does not say all of the Old Testament saints and it does not say that they are all resurrected in the New Immortal bodies

There have been many, many resurrections since Jesus arose but none in their new immortal bodies

Paul addressed the false accusation in the church that the resurrection had already taken place in the book of Timothy and again Paul states that there is an order to the Resurrection
Christ First and afterward at His Coming all of those in Christ.

Jesus is the First Fruit of the Resurrection and afterward at His Coming we will be raised.

This Resurrection takes place at His Coming the same as is stated in Revelations 20 when Jesus comes is the 1st Resurrection.

Daniel was Old Testament saint and in the book of Daniel he is told that he will rise at the end of days at the coming of Christ, so Daniel was not in the resurrection when Christ arose.

In my logic I did not say that Jesus is on the ground, Yes a different word is used in Acts, that is why I do not make a Doctrine on rapture, instead my doctrine is on the Resurrection, the harpazo, the gathering, the being gathered up takes place for us after the resurrection.

Jesus was Harpazo to heaven in the book of Revelation.

It is the pretrib that focus strongly on the Harpazo (rapture) as the strength of their doctrine.

"I do enjoy our reasoning PSALM1"

Me too! (insert smiley)

Carry on soldier

Hello psalm1

Have you noticed in rev 19 that the bride has not made herself ready amd that the marriage does not come until after the whore city is judged
That great city in the middle east that has made profit out of people
It goes very much into detail of this city

Also it says that the bride has made herself ready and is only just clothed in the righteousness of the saints and the marriage is come and blessed are they that are invited

So the marriage has come it is not complete
It is not over
John bows down but is told to get up and then we see christ coming to earth with his army and the first resurrection takes place at his coming

This puts all very close together
The bride
The being clothed
The righteousness of saints
Blessed are those invited
The coming of jesus
The 1st resurrection

All after the whore city being judged

See my post on todays date on the thread The Rapture caught up which is first the Resurrection or the Rapture
RESSURECTION

Scriptures showing that the Rapture is "PRE-Tribulation"

[2Thess 2:1] Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,

(The coming of our Lord Jesus, and our gathering together unto him is the rapture.)

[2Thess 2:2] That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.

("The day of Christ is at hand" refers not to the rapture, but to the day of wrath, the seven years of tribulation. {Amos 5:18 below}The church of Thessalonia must have gotten a letter that said they were living in the tribulation--which is shaking and troubling news. They could not have thought that they were living in the rapture, or that it was "at hand" or "now" because the rapture happens suddenly, instantaneously. And if the report was that the rapture was "soon to come", that would not be shaking or troubling, but glorious and wonderful. The only option, for the verse to make sense, is that they thought that the rapture had passed, and that they were in the tribulation.)

They were fearing this: [Dan 7:21] I beheld, and the same horn made war with the saints, and prevailed against them;

What IS the "day of Christ" anyway, is it the rapture?

[Amos 5:18] Woe unto you that desire the day of the LORD! to what end is it for you? the day of the LORD is darkness, and not light.

(This "day of the Lord" cannot be the rapture, because we look forward to the rapture. There are many other scriptures that say the same thing. The day of the Lord is tribulation, also known as the time of Jacob's trouble, Isreal's trouble, the days of Awe.)

[2Thess 2:3] Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day [tribulation--the day of Christ] shall not come, except there come a falling away [apostacy--or departure (some assume this means departure from the faith, but it can also mean departure from the earth, as in rapture)] first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

(Now, if they were troubled that the rapture had passed, Paul is assuring the Church that they didn't miss anything, saying that that the tribulation that they feared is preceeded by several important key events: First, the rapture, which reveals the antichrist...)

[2Thess 2:4] Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

(who doesn't even sit in the temple until 3.5 years into the tribulation... See Rev (which they didn't know at the time)-- But this is why this point, of the AntiChrist being revealed after the rapture--who goes on to sit in the temple, is proof that they hadn't missed the rapture. There is no antichrist revealed yet.)

[2Thess 2:5] Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?

[2Thess 2:6] And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.

(In other words, the Christians in Thessalonia couldn't have missed the rapture, because there is no AntiChrist sitting in the temple, claiming to be God, who has yet to be revealed. And that the AntiChrist is still being held back by their presence in the world--since the rapture reveals the antichrist as in verse 3.)

[2Thess 2:7] For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.

(Christians are the "He" who letteth will let and will be taken out of the way. That is, whatsoever we bound on earth will be bound in heaven. And once we are removed/raptured, then the AntiChrist will have the freedom to fulfill his plans. After all, the gates of hell cannot prevail against the Church; (Mat 16:18), and the Church is not destined for wrath (verse))

[2Thess 2:8] And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:

[2Thess 2:9] Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,

[2Thess 2:10] And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.

[2Thess 2:11] And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:

[2Thess 2:12] That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

[2Thess 2:13] But we are bound to give thanks always to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:

[2Thess 2:14] Whereunto he called you by our gospel, to the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ.

[2Thess 2:15] Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye have been taught, whether by word, or our epistle.

[2Thess 2:16] Now our Lord Jesus Christ himself, and God, even our Father, which hath loved us, and hath given us everlasting consolation and good hope through grace,

[2Thess 2:17] Comfort your hearts, and stablish you in every good word and work.

Finally, yes, the pre-tribulation rapture doctrine is accused of being a "comfort doctrine"... Well, it IS, the scripures even say so. It's consolation, hope, comforting for believers.

To recap, and summarize by clarifying the verses with modern terminology:

1 I beg you, by the Pre-Tribulation Rapture promise of Christ,
2 That you don't worry if you "hear by letter" that you are in the 7 year Great Tribulation of God's wrath
3 Don't be decieved. The Tribulation doesn't come until after the world wide events of the Great resurrection and rapture, which removes the righteous and leaves only those in rebellion and apostacy, which allows for the revealing of the AntiChrist,
4 Who says he is God, and who will sit in the temple and declare claim to be God.
5 Don't you remember this doctrine I told you already?
6 And now you know why the AntiChrist is not yet revealed to the world
7 Yes, the AntiChrist is working, but not fully, because you are still here, preventing his works by your prayers, until the rapture, when you will be taken out of the way.
8 And then the AntiChrist will come out of hiding, and the Lord will destroy him.

I can hear Paul thinking to himself... how could my diciples have been so easily misled, decived and troubled that they missed the rapture? And by a mere letter? It's a world-wide gospel-promoting supernatural event that no person could miss who was looking forward to it! They know it includes people rising from the dead, the last trump, and all the rest. I told them that in my first letter to them in Chapter 4, in fact, it was the only doctrinal teaching in my entire letter! Sheesh! I'd better make another journey back to Thessalonia to set these guys straight and reassure them, just in case my letter doesn't do it!

This is a portion of this; This article from; http://www.bibleprophesy.org/pretribrapture.htm

And the rest of the story:

"Now, I'm not ignorant of the fact that post trib rapture believers interpret 2 Thess 2 in the opposite way,
and use it to prove a post trib rapture... here's how they do it."

Check out the rest of the story at http// above.

All the proof I need is in 1 Thessalonians 4:14-18 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again , even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him . For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord , that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep . For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout , with the voice of the archangel , and with the trump of God : and the dead in Christ shall rise first : Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds , to meet the Lord in the air : and so shall we ever be with the Lord . Wherefore comfort one another with these words .

I am the Sons' brother, His Church, His Bride and He will come for me to keep me from wrath and take me to His Fathers House of whom then I will be the Sons' Wife and so we shall be with the Lord forever as sons and daughters of the Living God who gave His only begotten Son to purchase me from sin, wrath and death.

In Christ, also a son: Phillip

Thanks Christ in You for your reply, very well presented

however you seem to be adding much to scripture that is clearly not there

exegesis is important not isogesis

You said
(The coming of our Lord Jesus, and our gathering together unto him is the rapture.)

But when I look in scripture I can only find one place where this word rapture is used in relation to the Coming of Jesus and that is as follows

1Th 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
1Th 4:15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
1Th 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be ((caught up)) together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

This (Rapture) word is ((caught up)) and is not used anywhere else in scripture in regards to our Resurrection

As you can see it is the dead in Christ that return with Jesus, their dead bodies are raised first and then us who are alive (then we are caught up) (rapture)

So the Resurrection of the dead is first then we are Caught up.

So as you can see Jesus Comes first, then the Resurrection, then the Rapture

Praise God because the Rapture is true, it does take place at Christs Coming and when the Resurrection takes place then we are Rapture

This is what I read in 2 Thessalonians

2Th 2:1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,
2Th 2:2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.

(in the structure of these sentences and the use of Greek the day of Christ is referring back to the same day of Jesus Coming and our gathering to Him)

It is the same day being discussed by Paul, simple sentence structure

I know that I am waiting for the Day that Jesus Comes and brings deliverance to His people and Judges those in Israel

By what you (Christ in You) are saying it appears that you are saying that the Rapture is the Coming of Christ and the gathering together to Him and this cannot take place until the falling away and the revealing of the Son of Perdition happens.

It appears that you agree that the Rapture does not take place until the son of perdition is revealed

It says that Jesus destroys the son of perdition with the brightness of His Coming

The falling away and the revealing of the Son of Perdition are linked together

Paul said do not be deceived

Paul again talks about that same day

2Th 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

AS for this falling away, look at my other thread for a scriptural proof of how this word falling away or apostasy is used in Old Testament and New Testament

You Christ in you said the following
(In other words, the Christians in Thessalonia couldn't have missed the rapture, because there is no AntiChrist sitting in the temple, claiming to be God, who has yet to be revealed. And that the AntiChrist is still being held back by their presence in the world--since the rapture reveals the antichrist as in verse 3.)

My Reply
I cant find any where in scripture where it states (the rapture reveals the antichrist)
All I can find is where it says the rapture is after Christ Coming and after the Resurrection.
and that Christ will not Come until the Son of Perdition is revealed

Please provide where it says that the Tribulation is 7 years long as I can only find in scripture where it says 3 1/2 years, even Jesus stated when the Tribulation takes place.

You Christ in You said
[2Thess 2:7] For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.

My REPLY look at my thread on this taken and way word and see how it is used in scripture, it does not mean to remove or take away, quite the opposite it means to come into existence out of the midst

You SAID Christ in You
1 I beg you, by the Pre-Tribulation Rapture promise of Christ,
2 That you don't worry if you "hear by letter" that you are in the 7 year Great Tribulation of God's wrath
3 Don't be decieved. The Tribulation doesn't come until after the world wide events of the Great resurrection and rapture, which removes the righteous and leaves only those in rebellion and apostacy, which allows for the revealing of the AntiChrist,

My Reply
I cannot see that written in Thessalonians, you are certainly adding a lot of your own thoughts and ideas to what is Scriptural Truth

Jesus stated clearly what takes place before His Coming, and He certainly stated that the Tribulation and the Abomination in Daniel is prior to His Coming

It only says in Scripture that he is Coming a second Time, not a third

I can recommend strongly that you look at David Pawson website for a good video on Thessalonians and the Return of Christ, free scriptural and balanced videos and mp3 as well as Kevin J Conner

Paul said this

2Th 2:8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:

scripture says this

Heb_9:28 So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.

there is no mention of a third time in scripture, only a second, surely Hebrews speaks of Christs Coming for us, Jesus appears a second time without sin unto salvation

Jesus is bringing Salvation to us when He appears a second time

Look up all the verses with Coming and appearing and you will see that they all speak of the same day, the Day of Christs Coming

Re christ in you you said that paul was saying that jesus has promised a pretribulation resurrection (rapture)

My reply

Where is this promise??

Where does it clearly say that jesus is coming prior to the tribulation??

I can only find in scripture where jesus himself said to his own personal disciples that he is coming after the tribulation

Where does it say that the rapture happens quickly

As I can only find that it is our bodies being changed that happens in the twinkling of an eye

It does not say how long the rapture takes

The disciples watched and saw jesus ascend and the angels said that he will return in the same way he ascended

It is important to abide in what scripture clearly tells and to not add more than what it says

Jesus only speaks of coming and appearing as a singular and second time event

No third time mentioned

The wheat and tares grow together until the end

There are 12 pages in this thread. I have not read all the posts, as this topic has become wearisome.

Rapture is not a word in the bible, it is the rough description of things with which we have little or no experience. Hopefully those who have sought and received a baptism in the Holy Spirit have a taste of rapture- the exhileration of knowing that Jesus Himself in the power of the Holy Spirit has moved into one's heart.

But this is clearly taught as just a foretaste, a down payment, a "first fruits" of what is to come. Peter says we are to fix our hearts on the grace that will come to us at the revelation of Jesus Christ, Paul says that Christ in you is the Hope of Glory, and Jesus says He is preparing a place so that where He is, we may be also.

Do we still think this is real estate? Are we still quibbling over the ride to the big city? Do we really think we are going to float off the face of the earth to a fancy dinner party... literally??

When Jesus prayed that the will of God would be done on earth the same as it is done in heaven, he wasn't making a classy quote that would look nice on quilted bible covers and wall hanging samplers. He was declaring the very heart intention of the Father, and prophesying exactly what is going to happen.

Paul lays this all out in Romans chapter eight. The earth will be restored, the futility of the birth-death cycle will be broken, and the forces of evil will be broken by the Sons of God. Read Psalm 149 again- good things are coming to the earth, but more importantly immortal life is coming to us in Jesus Himself. And we have a big part in it.

That is Rapture. You will not need to fly anywhere because when the fullness of Jesus Christ inside has put you where He is, you are at your destination!

Therefore with Peter (1Pet 1:13) I am setting my heart fully upon the grace coming to me at the revealing of my Savior.

Might be today....

The word Rapture may not be an English word that is in our Bibles but the being caught up is, and it is a true and mighty act of God and His Son Jesus.

When Jesus does Come and when He does Appear at the Sound of the Last Trumpet, Jesus will bring with Him those who have died and their dead bodies will be raised first, we who are alive will have our bodies changed into immortal in the Twinkling of an Eye and we will then be Caught up (raptured) into the clouds.

Praise God, the rapture is true, but it is after the Coming and Revealing of Jesus and it is after the Resurrection.

Jesus promised us that He was Coming a second Time for Salvation and Jesus told us what takes place prior to His Coming.

Jesus said He is Coming after the Tribulation, very clear, very true

We are not in darkness as we do know what signs are before His Coming.

Watch and pray, let us all encourage each other to live a life of sacrifice, taking up our cross and waiting patiently for the Coming of Christ.

We know the signs but we do not know the hour of the day nor the day of His Coming after those signs.

Jesus said that when we see all these signs happening then look up for our redemption is drawing near, very clear

The signs will happen and when they all happen look up for He is Coming.

We are still in the Birth Pangs, still in the beginning of sorrows, still awaiting the birth.

The wheat will stay with the tares until the end when Jesus Comes.

Jesus said He will raise us at the Last Day

No earlier, no later.

This is the First Resurrection, and blessed and Holy is he that is in the first Resurrection, Priests to God and Jesus, we will reign with Jesus and have no fear of the second death.

Salvation in Christ is Eternal

This thread brings to mind a story from ancient Greece:

Zeus threw a wedding party and invited all the gods except for Eris, goddess of Discord, because she was a party-wrecker. In revenge she engraved "To the Fairest" on a golden apple and tossed it into the ballroom. Sure enough, all the goddesses insisted that the apple was addressed to her, got into a big fight and ruined Zeus's party.

Any OP that brings up the rapture, the KJV-only controversy or freewill vs. predestination is an Apple of Discord, specifically calculated to start a brawl. And it always works.

You are so right Wayneman! Once the terms are all defined and the tin soldiers are standing in their perfect rows it is very hard to pull thinking outside the box.

I am leaving this box.

Father of Jesus, love's reward,
What rapture will it be,
Prostrate before Thy throne to lie,
And gaze and gaze on Thee!
-Frederick William Faber

That's the only rapture I care about.

What is so amazing is that Jesus told the answers to his personal disciples questions

Jesus answered the question of the signs before his coming

Could not be any more honest and true

had they asked for some fish would he have given them a stone

NO

Jesus said he would come after the tribulation and after the sun and moon are darkened and stars fall

Joel revelations gospels say the same

Jesus does not say anywhere that he is coming before the tribulation

All of revelations is a prophecy for the servants about the coming of Jesus

Why believe the doctrines of men and disregard the very words of Jesus

He is coming after signs he so clearly said

Let us encourage all to prepare and not give up so easily

He that overcoming will have eternal life

He that is overcoming will not have his name blotted out of the book of life

He that overcoming

The wisdom of man verses the Word of God

The Word says this
1Co_15:20 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.
1Co_15:23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.

Man says that Jesus is not the First of Fruits and that there were many

Man says there is not that Order and that there are many Immortal Resurrections

Jesus is the Firstfruit

The Word says

Rev 20:5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
Rev 20:6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

Man says that this is not the First Resurrection and that there is one before this

The Word says this

Mat 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
Mat 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
Mat 24:31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

And man says

that Jesus is Coming before the Signs

The Word says

2Th 2:1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,
2Th 2:2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
2Th 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

And man says that The Coming of Jesus and our gathering together is before these two events

The Word says

Heb_9:28 So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.

And man says Oh no Jesus is Coming a Third Time

Why does man not agree with the Word of God?

Because of the doctrines of men rather that the Word of God

Think about the above and see if we can align ourselves with what the Word says rather than what man says

Jesus is the First of Fruits
There is an Order to the Resurrection
Jesus is Coming a Second Time
There is the First Resurrection
The Signs precede His Coming
Jesus is Coming and every eye will see Him

Search and believe the scriptures, let them be elevated rather that the words of men

By budgie ""Please provide verses not theories

To those that support a theory on pretrib please provide very clear proof in the way of scriptural verses that states a pretrib gathering or pretrib resurrection.
Let us reason together.
I can say again that there is not one clear verse that supports a pretrib resurrection.""

Greetings budgie,
Sorry,but it is you that is verseless.You guys never did have a verse.We basically gave you a pass with your only "verse" (Mat 24) Which now that you guys have been shown what it really says,we don't hear much about it anymore.

Over and over the pretrib position shows you the church IN HEAVEN,DURING THE GT.
Not by conjecture,or inference,but clear verses that place it there.
Not only that,but the purpose of the rapture is the wedding.
Plus the times of the gentile fulfilled at the beginning of the GT.
IOW,the church age is over,now the attention is to the JEWS,while simultaeneously the business with the bride is heavens emphasis.

Your PREMISE about us postribbers is one dimensional,as is your approach to end times.Your are GT centered as well as AC/persecution/suffering centered as opposed to "Groom/bride" centered.
You guys are not aware you align yourselves with the clear warning that there will be those that say "where is the promise of his coming?"
You guys' position also places you in the precarious position of opposing those watchmen on the wall,watching and waiting for the king.Postrib automatically would reject this watching as a waste of time....hhhmmmmmm

But even if we did not have such clear depictions by Jesus of the pretrib rapture,no true bible student would ever acknowledge an impossibility as a truth. A Postrib rapture cannot possibly happen. The AC kills all believers.Where are the "alive and remain?" Sorry,but all believers are in heaven during the GT.

Greetings budgie

Postrib is man centered,not bible centered.

Jesus is the word
Jesus is the resurrection.

Again,your premise is "GT" centered,not Jesus centered.
This is why you do not even realize your missing it by a mile.:)

You quote mat 24 and do not even comprehend what you post.
No,graves,no resurrection,no dead,and to top it off,the saints are gathered FROM HEAVEN....not earth...but HEAVEN.
ANGELS ARE DOING THE GATHERING....not Jesus.

That "1st resurrection" theory you guys came up with is error.

You claim we teach 3 comings while you have as many as 5 "1st resurrections"
1 Jesus
2 The ot saints that Jesus took to heaven
3 the 2 witnesses
4 the 144k
5 the "number no man can number" standing in heaven with washed robes.(which are actually the ones in rev 20)
How can you guys get this silly with cherry picked verses?

The rev 20 saints you depict,are actually previously placed IN HEAVEN AT THE BEGINNING OF THE GT!!!

I do not think you are aware of what is being debated.We both agree that Jesus returns after the GT. :)
What is 'debatable' is the timing of the rapture.So 2 thes in no way is a game changer.You have zero there.We are pretrib,not pre AC.He does not start in his murderous rampage in the first 5 minutes of his "office".So a rapture 3 days after his 'revealing' is consistent with pretrib.

The word testifies against man made theories.That is what you got right.:)
Peace

IOW,nobody on a forum is allowed their opinion?

What exactly do you propose as your ideal?

Jesus is stone of stumbling to some,a cornerstone to others.

defending truth is not a brawl,but a commandment.
Under your logic,nobody could debate anything.
Believers disagreeing will always be the norm on earth because we "see through a glass darkly"

A forum where nobody can disagree?Interesting concept.
Peace

Sidewalk ""Do we still think this is real estate? Are we still quibbling over the ride to the big city? Do we really think we are going to float off the face of the earth to a fancy dinner party... literally??""

Maybe you have not read this;
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

Are you saying Jesus was wrong in commanding believers to convey this to one another?

Are you also forbidding any threads on the 'trinity' since that word is not in the bible?

The reason we use words like "trinity" ,"Bible","rapture"
is mainly for brevity.
You are welcome to start a thread titled "the 3 persons of the Godhead,the Father,the Son and the Holy Spirit,as 3 separate persons yet one God,all deity and worthy of worship" and say that statement every time you refer to it.
Or you may want to just say "trinity" for brevity.(even though someone will bring up the fact that the word "trinity" is not in the bible)

Do you really not know this??

You really do not understand that rapture is referring to "caught up"?

""When Jesus prayed that the will of God would be done on earth the same as it is done in heaven, he wasn't making a classy quote that would look nice on quilted bible covers and wall hanging samplers. He was declaring the very heart intention of the Father, and prophesying exactly what is going to happen.""

Sorry but that is not true.He was doing that very thing with the first being the "water into wine" miracle .

HE,the resurrection,and firstfruits of many miracles by his followers is in fact God's will on earth"as it is in heaven"
The point of the BOTHS (baptism of the HS) is multifaceted.IT (the BOTHS) is to empower the believer for service,perseverance,and to set that believers feet in a new dimension SPIRITUALLY.
"on earth,as in heaven" is here NOW. We are the vehicle,the tool in God's hand,God's mouthpiece,that no sickness or devil will ever dominate again.
Heaven=no sickness,poverty,bodage,sin,sadness.
Jesus ministered this on earth.
Jesus empowered believers at his departure,and subsequently the entire upper room INTO THIS "HEAVEN DIMENSION ON EARTH"to do what he did.
Our own ignorance and squandering of this dimension is what we have been handed us by man and religion.
When is the last time you heard ca teaching or sermon on the BOTHS ?

Has nothing whatsoever to do with the rapture.

Neither camp believes this.
We both believe jesus will return to earth after the GT.
The written word of God however,NECESSITATES Jesus not set foot on earth , as he meets his ASCENDING bride in the air.

"""No third time mentioned"""
Nobody I know of in either camp believes this.
Man teaches this.We do not
Rabbit trail non issue

The "aposacy" is a non issue.It can say either,and not change a single thing.
I have no dog in that hunt.

My point is ; I am free to interpret the ACTUAL MEANING
While you guys must "omit for fit".
Apostacia literally translates "from standing"
I can say "departure","leaving",leaving a previous place of standing" etc.All of which is factual and correct.

Your DOCTRINE however does not ALLOW you that privilege.
That is my point.
You put in there what is not there."falling away from the faith"
Now it COULD MEAN THAT,AND I DO NOT have a problem with it.
But what it literally says is ;" until there first comes a DEPARTURE......"
I find it humorous your camp NEEDS THE MODIFICATION
You do not even need the error,and yet you choose the error as if it is a game changer,when it does nothing for either view.

You guys are misled,and therefore the bizarre statements.

hello budgie,
you said;"""The very clear Doctrine that is found in Scripture that is in Harmony is as follows.

There is a Resurrection that takes place at the Coming of Jesus and"""

No there is not.You do NOT have ANY scriptural proof of any such thing.

Still waiting for a postrib rapture adherent to interpret this.
It is Super simple. Should be easy.

What is your interpretation of the 10 virgin parable of mat25?

Oil=?
Virgin=?
Groom=?
Buy=?
door shut=?
"went out to meet"=?
tarried=?
What was normally transferable,that,at that time was not?

Hello Psalm 1 I have a very simple and truthful reply to your statement regarding the Resurrection in the Immortal body

I would rather believe what scripture says than any man

Paul described the Resurrection of the Immortal body as having an Order

1Co 15:16 For if the dead rise not, then is not Christ raised:
1Co 15:17 And if Christ be not raised, your faith is vain; ye are yet in your sins.
1Co 15:18 Then they also which are fallen asleep in Christ are perished.
1Co 15:19 If in this life only we have hope in Christ, we are of all men most miserable.
1Co 15:20 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.

There it is Jesus was the First to be raised in the Immortal body

When does Paul say that the next Resurrection takes place?

1Co 15:21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.
1Co 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
1Co 15:23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.

There it is The Resurrection of all in Christ is at His Coming.

No where in scripture does it say that any others have been raised in their immortal bodies, resurrection yes but not immortal resurrections

Lazarus was raised and many others raised by Jesus and the disciples, apostles and even today but not Immortal Resurrections

For it to be otherwise makes Paul a liar and also makes John a liar.

I will trust in Gods Word and I will believe what Paul said, there is an Order to the Resurrection of the Immortal Jesus First and all of us at His Coming,and I will believe what God says, the First Resurrection is in Revelations 20 when Jesus Comes

Paul also said this from the same book of Corinthians

1Co 15:51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
1Co 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
1Co 15:53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.

There is a Resurrection when Jesus Comes and it will be at the Last Trumpet, and that Resurrection takes place in the twinkling of an eye

All raised and bodies changed in the twinkling of an eye

Rev 10:7 But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets.

Rev 11:15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.
Rev 11:16 And the four and twenty elders, which sat before God on their seats, fell upon their faces, and worshipped God,
Rev 11:17 Saying, We give thee thanks, O Lord God Almighty, which art, and wast, and art to come; because thou hast taken to thee thy great power, and hast reigned.
Rev 11:18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.

I can say quite confidently that in all my posts I have used scripture and always used scripture to interpret scripture

I used only verses where the apostasia word is used in New Testament as well as Old Testament Septuagint

I don't add and I do not take away, not my words but scripture

I know one thing, and that is if Revelations 20 states this is the First Resurrection and that it takes place at the Coming of Christ, I dare not change it or say otherwise

There is a very clear warning in Revelations to not add and to not take away

I must believe what God has said in Revelations, I must accept all that is said in Revelations as being Truth and I must not change it to suit a theory.

Jesus gave the whole Book to the Church

Rev 22:6 And he said unto me, These sayings are faithful and true: and the Lord God of the holy prophets sent his angel to shew unto his servants the things which must shortly be done.
Rev 22:7 Behold, I come quickly: blessed is he that keepeth the sayings of the prophecy of this book.

I do only have one choice and that is to believe that the whole Book was given to the Church to prepare the Church and to reveal the Coming of Jesus and what will take place before He Comes

Rev 20:5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
Rev 20:6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

Hello Psalm1, I have some questions you said that the Church is in Heaven during the Great Tribulation

I ask you this one question, what verse states that??

You say that we are not the elect in Matthew 24, then who are you referring to for the verse that states so clearly that the Church is in heaven during the GT, it must say church as you don't accept that we are the elect

You say that the purpose for the Rapture is for the wedding

If this is so why does it say that the Bride has not made herself ready and has not been clothed until the end of Revelation 19 when Jesus is described as Coming to Earth, sounds like the Bride is made ready and finally clothed at the Time that Jesus is Coming to Earth, surely the bride has made herself ready and is clothed when the Resurrection takes place when the dead are raised and our bodies have been changed
Jesus said that this is the FIRST RESSURECTION Blessed are those that are in the First Resurrection

Why do you struggle with the verse This is the First Resurrection, why not simply accept that verse and not try and say that it is not the First Resurrection

I am happy to accept this verse spoken by God and Jesus and John, Jesus and John certainly did not dispute it

They live and reign with Jesus for that 1000 yr period before the New Heavens and New Earth so they must have the immortal body the same as Jesus

I desire to be in the First Resurrection as there is no fear of the second death that takes place at the last Resurrection

"Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh." Matthew 24:44
Jesus said be ready. Quit separating yourselves into pre-trib and post-trib clubs. (I will not take either position.) Just take Jesus at His word! I say this in love; away with all of your theological arguments everyone! Satan is very clever, and he loves us to get bogged down in these kinds of debates. Concentrate on prayer, on reaching the nations and getting to know Jesus better.

Thanks you drifter

That verse you have in Matthew 24 is speaking of that same day and hour of his coming after the tribulation after the signs in heaven
That is why Jesus said when you see these signs look up for your redemption draws near
It does not say to look up now
Jesus said these signs are like when we see the trees budding
I will obey the words of Jesus
I will not despise prophecy
I will not have my ears tickled
I will trust in Jesus and not waver
Over 100000 Christians are killed each year
They die for Christ
They watch their own children be killed because they will not deny Jesus
Jesus will come in the clouds after the tribulation
That is his words
Not mine