Are we blinded also?

It is a terrifying thing to presume upon God. I think of the warnings against it in Ecclesiastes 5. Yet, we have to carefully weigh stories about forms of conversion that do not conform with the Scriptural witness of proclamation as the means of bringing men to repentance and faith in Christ. We don't have sinners being shown the gospel by vision without a human proclamation accompanying it in some fashion in Scripture. Even Paul was an eyewitness to gospel proclamation before his conversion at Jesus's appearance. And, we must not approve Chrislam, either, in spite of its appeal to our emotions and strong desire to see men saved. At the same time, we can see in the New Testament that men believed and remained within the Jewish religious system. Judaism rejected Christ long before Islam existed, and they both continue as anti-Christ belief systems. So, I am with you bearmaster, and also with caution as we wait for the fruit that abounds to the glory of God in Christ in all such claims and while we remain devoted to the proclamation of the gospel.

bear you said, "And Imoms certainly cannot have an experience with Christ and still remain in the context of Islam. Never mind they are secretly reading and studying the NewTestament. Never mind they are praying their mosque will cone to know Christ as they have. God simply does not work this way among the Moslems."
--

just read your post and i wonder if you could show me in scripture where Paul after seeing visions of Jesus went back to being a pharisee? i am not trying to be flippant but you mentioned those who are haveing visions then going back to their previous life and keeping their faith a secret? how dose this fit with the Biblical account of conversion. if i belonged to the mormon church and had a vision of Jesus would it be fine for me to continue on practicing and believing in the traditions of the mormon religion? would it be fine for me to keep my new found faith a secret from those around? It says you will know them by their fruit?

rdg

Whatever the reasons why people reject Jesus Christ or keep their new founded faith in Christ a secret, their rejection has disastrous eternal consequences. "There is no other name under heaven given to men by which we must be saved” than the name of Jesus (Acts 4:12), and those who reject Him, for whatever reason, face an eternity in the "outer darkness” of hell where there will be "weeping and gnashing of teeth” (Matthew 25:30). If someone comes to accept Jesus as Lord and Savior, and hides it, my guess is they must not have really accepted Jesus in the first place. Deception abounds fully today and since the beginning of time, and religion has been the biggest leader of deception. The word makes it perfectly clear, for those who choose to truly believe and trust in Jesus. "There is no other name under heaven given to men by which we must be saved” than the name of Jesus (Acts 4:12). "Any Questions?

Salvation can only be found be found in the name of Jesus Christ. You CANNOT find salvation in the name of Allah. You CANNOT find salvation in the name of the Pope. You CANNOT find salvation in the name of Buddha. You CANNOT find salvation in the name of a religion or a denomination. You CANNOT find salvation in the name of an evangelist. You can only find salvation in the person of Jesus Christ. This is God’s plan.

She is married and one of four wives to a Muslim nan. There are no evangelical churches in Saudie Arabia. For this woman to openly declare her faith in Christ is certain death. She may have a New Testament but must read it in secret. This dear sister will stay in the context if her religion but prays for her husband, his other wives, and her children to come to knuw Christ.
___

if she is still practicing the muslim faith with her husband then she does not know Jesus.
__

Is anybody going to say that this dear woman is not obeying God? Yet our western paradyne would say she is to come out of Islam. And to what I might ask? To an early death? Maybe if that is what God would call her to. But I would suggest that God in His wisdom would be reaching more Muslem souls through the prayers of that sister who stays in her Muslem marriage then going to an early martyrs death.

___

does the New testement support this? if so please show me where as i am open to recieve correction.

___
Again saints we cannot impose our western standards on what God is doing in he Middle East. For His ways we certainly not our ways.

Blaine

__

again blaine where is this in the Bible? this is not anyone here imposing a western standard on anyone its Gods standard in His Word.Be careful you do not side step the Word and what it clearly says to us.

now i have a question for you to consider: there is a woman who lives here in this country, she is mormon and married with seven children. she has come to know Jesus as her true Savior but if she refuses to obey her husband and continue on teaching her children the false teaching of the mormon religion her husband will divorce her. they live in Utah and he is a lawyer with many connections, she knows if she tells anyone that she has found Jesus and is born again that her husband will divorce her and take her children from her(he has the power to do so) so she is faced with a choice? she can count the cost of following Christ, place her life in Jesus hands and confess Him as Lord to all, refusing to continue on in the practice of the false religion of Mormonism? or she can lie to those around her, pretend that she is still mormon, and pray in secret that her husband will be saved and hope her children will be as well all the while teaching them the mormon faith? what should she do?

following your reasoning she should lie and pretend and yet the Word tells us to share the good news with all not hide it???

rdg

Blaine something else to think about.

you wrote:Is anybody going to say that this dear woman is not obeying God? Yet our western paradyne would say she is to come out of Islam. And to what I might ask? To an early death?

___

did the disciples face persecution and death by confessing Jesus? didn't they face the same question that this woman you speak faces? if she is truly following Jesus there can only be one clear answer "repent of your sins and follow ME."

Now i ask you to consider is practicing the false teaching of Islam sin or not? if she continues to follow and practice a false religion for the world to see then how can she be a light to the lost? is she not in sin for doing so?

rdg

Lets discuss whats the meaning of this scripture.

Matthew 10:33....But whosoever shall deny me before men, him will I also deny before my Father which is in heaven.

I don't seem to get reading that scripture that it's ok to hide my new found faith in Jesus Christ at any cost, but I am open for rebuttals.

Thank you MrBillPro for the Scripture Verse Matthew 10:33 and i just wanted to add that I agree with the Word of God and what it says here. i have no rebuttals(smile)

rdg

bearmaster...I ask gently is this not what you are doing? Are you not applying your western mindset to what believers should or should not be doing in the Middle East?

just-in...We only know how to apply the Word of God as the Spirit leads us.

I am a little confused here, please help! Would it be possible that the spirit might lead us in opposition to the word of God?

Well we started off on this thread, in reference to Jews and Muslims in other countries, so now as usual we have moved to comparing apples to oranges.

The Bible provides a reliable yardstick by which to measure our claims to be guided by the Holy Spirit through circumstances or feelings. If, for example, you think that the Spirit is leading you to do something the Bible prohibits, you can be sure that your spiritual lenses have become foggy. Throughout history, people have committed blatant sins under the claim God’s guidance. But since the Spirit inspired the writers of Scripture, that same Spirit can be guaranteed not to lead us to contradict the plain direction of Scripture.

just-in... If someone is not revealing their faith to every one they know and meet, I do not judge that they are denying Christ. Do you?
How would you even be prepared to judge them if they are not reveling their faith? How would you even know what their faith is? Would they not have to speak out loud to reveal their faith? maybe I am just confused.

by bearmaster on 2014/2/10 12:19:20

I ask gently is this not what you are doing? Are you not applying your western mindset to what believers should or should not be doing in the Middle East?

Jesus also taught that we are to be wise as serpents and innocent as doves. Sometimes descretion is the better part of valor if it means for the gospel to have a greater impact.

Blaine
__

blaine could you go back to my second post to you and respond to my question? what would your advice to my friend be who is mormon? what should she do?

rdg

Just in

just asking not trying to be difficult but how can anyone interpret any different then what it says??

Matthew 10:33....But whosoever shall deny me before men, him will I also deny before my Father which is in heaven.

So if someone keeps their faith a secret what does this verse say about that? help me understand this based off what Blaine wrote in his opening posts?

thanks rdg

With all respect, more than what is due if I could muster up such a thing! because I know that we all are striving toward the same mark, it is probably, how can we say, prevalent practice for Christians in persecuted countries to "hide" their faith. To an extent. That is why we hear men like David Platt relate persecuted churches discipling their converts to pick out the 5 or 10 people least likely to kill them and to witness to those 5, 10 etc. The Holy Spirit will, in fact, lead them in who to "hide from" until His time. He does that. So, if we drill down into the reality of situations, there is not just "persecuted countries" in the political sense, but also persecuted circumstances as I imagine a wife in a Saudi polygamist marriage who turns to Christ may find herself. I don't expect an undiscipled convert to have the wisdom and maturity to navigate the dangers and complexities of this, but I do know that she is my sister in Christ if she is now truly His and my prayer is that the God whose glory is made known by saving through his only Son and who is fully able to equip her and use her will do so in His timing and not mine.

Theology is not a western invention.

Just because we live in the west does not mean we are wrong about everything. I do think we are very far out of kilter; however, just because we are westerners does not mean that when we begin quoting scripture and seeking what the Lord has already revealed according to scripture that God hates it and thinks were are being old fundies.

God has revealed to us, according to the scriptures, all that we need for life and godliness. Methodologies, Theologies, or revelations gathered outside the context of the scripture should be rejected.

That being said, do I think that muslims could come to the faith because of a dream or vision. Yes. So long as the gospel has been presented to them. Remember, it is NOT a decision to follow Jesus or an affirmation of doctrinal standpoints or developing a relationship with Jesus Christ that saves. It is belief on Him through the hearing of the Gospel. Weird, unbiblical salvation theology springs forth all sorts of doctrinal errors. Some far more dangerous than others. I have heard people say things, when I ask about their conversion, like "One day I woke up and realized I was following Jesus." I'm sorry. This isn't a process. A stoney heart does not transform into a beating, living heart over the course of time. It is instant.

Applying the western mindset in this situation would be, "Did you tell them God loves them and has a wonderful plan for their lives? Becuase if you didn't do that, then they are going to be unhappy." THAT is an application of western Christianity to this situation. I have a great fear that what is actually happening in the Muslim countries is a hardening against the Gospel. Think, if a bunch of people hear for a long time from supposed preachers that the gospelless dream they had was their conversion and so long, even in secret, that they claim the name of Jesus, they can maintain practicing Islam--and then a preacher of Gospel comes by and tells them the truth, "Come out from among them!" and gives them the Gospel, what do you think they are going to say? "No thanks preacher, we already got that!" Well hey! What do you know? It's western Christianity!

Why does it always seem like we get defensive anytime anyone ever says, "well what DO the scriptures say?" Golly! If people are asking that, whether their current beliefs are right or wrong, we should be rejoicing, because seeking the Lord has long lost its luster in American Christianity.

As for being led by the Spirit. I am sorry. Emotions and feelings and miracles are not marks of being led by the Spirit. Neither is coincidence or cool stories. What are we supposed to look for? We are supposed to be looking for fruit. Not just conversion numbers or number of times you opened doors for old ladies. No. We are looking for love, joy, peace, patience, etc and the whole gamut of other Biblical evidences.

Cool stories--alone--are not marks of the Spirit.

just-in...The Bible is not an "answer book"

Don't tell Hank that.:) "The Complete Bible Answer Book" by Hank Hanegraaff

havok20x..As for being led by the Spirit. I am sorry. Emotions and feelings and miracles are not marks of being led by the Spirit. Neither is coincidence or cool stories.

I do believe the Spirit does lead by circumstances. I also believe spiritual guidance must be evaluated for its consistency with Scripture.

Justin you wrote, There are secret believers in Pakistan, Iran, Saudi Arabia, Afganhistan, Vietnam, etc. Are you saying that all these secret believers are in sin because they are not telling everyone they believe in Christ? ---

if i keep my relationship with Christ a secret because to share it with other would cost me something am i in sin?

in Blaine opening post he claimed that this woman was saved but still practicing Islam, is that not sin according to the Word of God? it almost seems like we are saying God is giving special consideration here? is He for this woman?

i guess what i am asking is these questions,
is following Islam a sin?
is deny Jesus a sin?
is keeping our faith a secret a sin?(pretending to be Islam while secretly following Jesus)

is there examples of doing this in the New Testament anywhere? did the disciples do this?(I am not a scholar so am open to learning something here today)

rdg

Justin you wrote, The Bible is not an "answer book" that tells us how everyone should behave in every given situation. That is one of the Holy Spirit's roles. To lead as a Shepherd leads. Other sheep may think they know how a certain sheep should proceed over a ravine, but only the Shepherd knows the way that HE wants that particular sheep to proceed.
---

here is my issue with this. if the Bible does not give us answers and is open to anyone understanding then who am i to share my gay coworking who professes to love the Lord that he is in sin for living as a homosexual? his understanding is that homosexuality is not sin, so is it wrong then for me to question his understanding of what he says the Holy Spirit is showing him?

How is this any different then the woman that Blaine spoke of? she professes to now follow Jesus but continues to practice Islam? the only way this is not an issue is to say that believing and following Islam is not a sin?

I want to just say because this is a difficult medium to exchange on that I am humbly asking this and wanting to understand what is being said here. I have no anger in my heart

rdg

Just to add. I do believe the Holy Spirit does lead us in circumstance and I do believe Muslims can and do come to Jesus.I just don't believe the Holy Spirit would ever lead us contrary to Gods Word. If Jesus says to turn from your sins and you don't then the Holy Spirit is not leading you...
ok so that is my understanding and i guess my question and what I am seeking to understand then is to blaine, is this woman who you wrote about in sin for still practicing Islam or no?

rdg

Galatians 2:2
And I went up by revelation, and communicated unto them that gospel which I preach among the Gentiles, but privately to them which were of reputation, lest by any means I should run, or had run, in vain.

proudpapa, Galatians 2:2 could you elaborate a little on your idea of the meaning of this scripture? I have seen it used before, in threads similar to this one.

HI MrBillPro

MrBillPro WROTE : ///proudpapa, Galatians 2:2 could you elaborate a little on your idea of the meaning of this scripture? I have seen it used before, in threads similar to this one.///

I may be misunderstanding this Scripture, but what comes to mind when I read it, is how we read of the secrete
underground Church in North Korea and other such areas, how there is evidence that the Gospel may be making inrodes even amoung some of uperclasses which may even be involved in the government.

Standing in the middle of Pyongyang with a Sandwidch Board
and bull horn calling everyone to repentance might not be the wisest nor most succesful way of spreading the gospel in such areas.

I just want to bring some clarity to what I had said. I definitely believe the Spirit can lead in circumstances. No doubt. That is part of His job.

So I am not saying that you have to find a Bible verse that says, "Go witness to Joe down the street" per se. However, we all know of multiple examples of people claiming to be led by the Spirit and it either came to nothing or it led to error. All I am saying is that the Spirit is not a mysterious force that does totally random things and that we could never possibly hope to know anything concrete about Him. How else would we ever be able to "test the spirits" as we are commanded in scripture?

Blaine thank you for your response. i do not know her heart nor did i claim to. i am asking questions based off what you posted and what you are implying with your post. if i understand your heart on this issue then, when persecution comes here to the United States (as it will) those who proclaim Jesus are fine to "pretend to go along with the government" so that we will not be martyred? that is what you are saying for this woman who lives in Saudi Arabia. so then I guess it would apply to us here then as well? as long as we pray in secret and read the Bible in secret there is nothing wrong with keeping our belief and faith in Christ a secret?

what about all those who live in Saudi, who count the cost and risk all for Jesus because they do not care what men might do to their bodies they only want to proclaim Jesus and share the good news, if they die they embrace it, but the thought of living their faith in hiding and secret never even enters their mind? i am not judging anyone heart, hers or yours but in the end following Jesus does come with a cost does it not??

rdg

Proudpapa you said:Standing in the middle of Pyongyang with a Sandwidch Board
and bull horn calling everyone to repentance might not be the wisest nor most succesful way of spreading the gospel in such areas.===

And yet Stephen died proclaiming the truth about Jesus? how are we to live any different then him or the other disciples. this thread has been very confusing for me

rdg

again I did not say that Muslims can not come to Christ through dreams or visions. I just said if they do come to Christ there will be a changed life. this is not western thinking at all this is Biblical. guys i am really confused by some of you here. i have followed posts before and now after reading this all i can think is i guess we are just not called to the same standard of devotion as the disciples were, at least that seems to be what is being said here and i have to tell you its confusing and disheartening. why should i ever bother to think about persecution as Greg has posted about, i can just hide my Bible, pretend to go along with the world and pray in hiding.this is not a western vs persecuted country topic this comes down to what is truth and what does the Bible say about sin, conversion, and living unto Him. completely confused (sad)

rdg

bearmaster...We can sit behind our key boards in our nice warm houses abd make judgements on those in foreign nations who do live out the reality of Christ abd when necessary die for Him.

Hold on there Pilgrim "as John Wayne might say" :) I haven't seen anyone on this thread judge anyone, I have just seen good debate with the Word Of God scriptures provided, maybe I missed something.

Hi rainydaygirl

rainydaygirl wrote :///And yet Stephen died proclaiming the truth about Jesus? how are we to live any different then him or the other disciples. this thread has been very confusing for me///

What did the church do after the persecution arose because of Stephen ? Acts 11:19

Maybe the question we all should be asking is, why would you continue to live in a place were everything goes against the grain of your beliefs? Even Jesus did not waste time moving on from Nazareth after the folks lead him up the hill with intentions of throwing him off. Jesus went on to Capernaum, were the people were glad to listen. I guess my message here is, if we can't spread the word were we are, should we move on as Jesus did?

what i don't understand is are we not to reckon ourselves dead to this world anyway? what are any of us trying to hold on to in this life? doesn't it say in Philippians 1:21
For to me, to live is Christ and to die is gain

blaine i am not asking her to pick up a bullhorn and scream Jesus in the town center. i am not saying she is not a believer I question your comments that she goes back and continues to practice Islam and you have no issue with that?

i guess i don't get it.

rdg

Hi MrBillPro

MrBillPro wrote :/// I guess my message here is, if we can't spread the word were we are, should we move on as Jesus did?///

The Word is speading in most of those areas, and most likely a more pure Word to a more receptive people than in less hostile areas. and they go because they are called.

Well my time here on this thread is done, I really have nothing more I can say with my limited knowledge in relation to this discussion. I guess one thing we hopefully can all agree on is, God is God and is not limited in any way, and his ways are not our ways.
Blessings
Mr. Bill

Brothers (i think i was the only sister responding)

i am going to leave this thread as well. i leave in confusion and with out understanding but open to Him and wanting to know His heart always.

in these days its so easy to be deceived so i continue to pray.

thank you for your kindness and patients with me
rdg

Hi MrBillPro , rainydaygirl, or anyone else

I hope nothing I wrote offended you in any way, If so, or anyone else, I sure did not intend to do so.

Absolutely not, brother.

I am thousands of miles away. I don't know this woman. But I want to make sure that we don't take the experience of 1 individual and indoctrinate it into Christianity.

She may be saved, as the others. I would certainly be joyous over that! However, if an Imam is still leading Muslims in the way of Islam, but secretly praying that they be converted yet not proclaiming the truth--such a one may indeed be a brother--but they are in error if they are.

Nowhere in scripture are we encouraged to go underground as a church or hide our faith. Now please don't think I have just condemned what is deemed "The underground Church." What I am saying is this: Jesus tells us that we are going to be hated and persecuted, but we must boldly proclaim the Word. That muslim woman may indeed die if she says she is a Christian, but is that a curse? What I wouldn't give to be with the Lord! There is no sorrow in that. If by proclaiming the Gospel, I lay down my life, then so be it.

Meeting together as believers in secret is one thing. Pretending to not be Christians so that you avoid persecution is quite another, and I see no example of this in scripture.

just-in,

You are right, it does say "given."

my email is nathaniel.gardner(a)parker.com

I would really like to communicate to you about some things if you don't mind.

i just wanted to come back and say i was not offended by any one. i am feeling a bit confused by some things posted but will pray further on the matter.

to Blaine you mentioned a blizzard i pray you will stay warm and safe. .

rdg

May we please consider these words of Elisha to a brother in similar circumstance as the new believer that was mentioned.

2 Kings 5:17
"If you will not,” said Naaman, "please let me, your servant, be given as much earth as a pair of mules can carry, for your servant will never again make burnt offerings and sacrifices to any other god but the Lord. 18 But may the Lord forgive your servant for this one thing: When my master enters the temple of Rimmon to bow down and he is leaning on my arm and I have to bow there also””when I bow down in the temple of Rimmon, may the Lord forgive your servant for this.”

19 "Go in peace,” Elisha said.

Blessings

Joch

I had thought about Naaman during this discussion; however, at that time Christ had not been revealed nor had we received the great commission, nor was Naaman filled with this Holy Spirit, nor was He regenerate.

We serve a great and powerful God. He is King, sustainer, and controller of all in the universe. All has been created for His good pleasure and glory.

The Bible says this in Ephesians 2:

"But God, who is rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, even when we were dead in trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), and raised us up together, and made us sit together in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus..."

it also says this in Hebrews:

"Seeing then that we have a great High Priest who has passed through the heavens, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold fast our confession. For we do not have a High Priest who cannot sympathize with our weaknesses, but was in all points tempted as we are, yet without sin. Let us therefore come boldly to the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy and find grace to help in time of need."

and we know that God is for us.

If an person anywhere becomes a Christian in a place that it is acceptable, moderately acceptable, somewhat unacceptable, unacceptable, highly unacceptable, or down right dangerous to be a Christian, they still serve the same God. They still serve the master of the universe who is above all. All authority on heaven and earth has been given to the one who saved us. We need not fear men. Period. God is able, without difficulty, to deliver us from the hands of the wicked. But even if He chooses not to, but instead chooses to exalt Himself through our suffering, then we can rest in the fact that whether in life or death, we are the Lord's.

That being said, the success of the Gospel is not dependent on us. It is dependent on Him. We do not have to come up with all sorts of tricks to make it more acceptable to men. We do not have to develop all sorts of tactics that will ensure our own survival so that we can spread it to people who are more willing to hear.

God makes them willing to hear. His grace is what draws them, His grace is what convicts them, and it is His grace, if they believe the Gospel, that saves them.

Lots of people like to quote the scripture about being wise as serpents and harmless as doves to justify avoiding persecution, but look at what Jesus says in those verses:

"Behold, I send you out as sheep in the midst of wolves. Therefore be wise as serpents and harmless as doves. But beware of men, for they will deliver you up to councils and scourge you in their synagogues. You will be brought before governors and kings for My sake, as a testimony to them and to the Gentiles. But when they deliver you up, do not worry about how or what you should speak. For it will be given to you in that hour what you should speak; for it is not you who speak, but the Spirit of your Father who speaks in you."

Jesus is not telling us to be wise and harmless to avoid persecutions. He is telling us to be wise and harmless in the MIDST of persecutions.

Let's see how this really plays out. Let's look at Acts 4. You can clearly see that they were threatened and persecuted. But what did the Apostles do? They prayed for boldness. They did not go into hiding, but were bold in their proclomation in the faith by the power of God.

So Brother, I believe that whether suffering is imminent or whether it is seemingly far-off, we should proclaim the Gospel boldly and in the power of God. Let death come. We lose nothing by it, but gain those precious promises which we daily cling to.

I realize this is easy to say for me when there is little chance that I will suffer persecution (at least at this time), but I pray that my resolve and love for the Lord will not waiver when it does come.

As for our brothers in sisters in Muslim countries, I hope to hear wonderful stories of prison cells opening seemingly on their own, of a pervasive Christ that cannot be stamped out no matter how harsh the resistance, and of dear saints laying down their lives spiritually and, if necessary, physically for the glory of our great God and Savior, Jesus Christ--in all, making the Name of Jesus Christ both famous among those who are His and infamous among those who reject Him. I hope to hear that someday in the USA as well.

If this is true, then I would say they were in the position of Cornelius or those two disciples on the Emmaus Road or of Apollos or of those disciples of John that Paul met on a road. None of them were dissenters, per se, but they had not yet heard the fullness of the Gospel of Jesus Christ. If how I perceived the article is true, then they need to be given the Gospel, that they may believe and receive the Holy Spirit.

The fact that God often reveals Himself to people who are ignorant of Him or of His word through dreams and visions of Christ is, to me, undebatable. I have read too many accounts of these people and have seen the fruit of their conversions. Often these men and women have absolutely no knowledge of the word of God, and cannot immediately make strong distinctions between what we know the word of God to teach and what their previous religious experience teaches. Notice Blaine's last post.

[quoteWe each prayed to Jesus for His help to learn what it means to be His followers. Over time, He brought us together and you can imagine our amazement when the Holy Spirit revealed that there are other imams who have found Jesus as well. Now we meet here 3 times a week at night to pray for our families and for for people in our mosques to find Jesus too. We know you follow Christ. He led us to you..............But now our question is, will you teach us the Bible."

But as believers in Christ grow in their knowledge of God and in their experience with the Holy Spirit, they will necessarily begin to be confronted with inconsistencies that must be confronted. The teachings of Islam are diametrically opposed to the teachings of Christ. One is a doctrine of demons, the other is the truth of God. So the two can not long exist in the practices of a person who has been born again.

Most of us have been walking with the Lord long enough, or at least have been raised with some knowledge of the word of God. As a result, our spiritual growth has been accelerated beyond that of a person who has been a total pagan or totally immersed in a false religion since birth. Things that to us are totally inconsistent are not seen as so by the ignorant. But, given time and teaching, those inconsistencies will be seen clearly and that person will have to make what is often a hard choice.

It may be possible for a person to remain in a Mormon community, and even attend Mormon services after they have been born again. That person may witness and lead others to Christ through private conversations rather than open preaching. But I am not sure how long that person can persist in that state. At some point, they are going to be found out and have to make hard choices about whether they will suffer persecution or compromise their faith.

Ultimately, I believe, you will be called upon to make some very difficult choices. For someone in an Islamic society that may very well mean death, or flight if possible. But I don't believe you can perpetually involve yourself in the mosque, temple, etc., and remain private. I just do not see any Biblical precedent for it. I do see many times that men and women have given their lives for the sake of the gospel. Who knows but what that may eventually be me. Right now our western world is friendly for the most part to Christians, but that could rapidly change.

On a side note, I currently teach in a public high school. In that context, I am not allowed to "preach" openly to my students, although I am sure that most all know that I am a Bible believing Christian. I am certified in Math and Science. If I were ever commanded to teach evolution as the truth about origins, I would have to face possible termination for refusal to teach something to my students as truth when I know full well it is a lie. However, if I am given the lee-way to teach the theory with the understanding that I could show its weaknesses and clearly let students know that I do not think it holds scientific water, I would feel that I was able to consistently continue. I know that this example is not exactly the same as what, lets say an Imam, who comes to Christ in an Islamic society would experience, but it does have some similarities. The decision to compromise or not to compromise is the same fundamental decision.

There is one thing that happens when one reads testimonies of people who come to the LORD and how they grow and that is we have no concept of the time it takes from the onset of the call of God. This happens when you read the Bible Stories in the WORD as well.

We do have a limited concept of the way God works. Recently I read the book of Zechariah and my understanding of the sovereignty of God was r e a l l y stretched - left me asking more questions with answers slow a-coming.

I do get excited when I hear reports of God working and people responding to that call. I know God is not willing that any should perish and that He will work to bring people to him using any method to facilitate that process.

If these Imans are still in Islam I would guess God will bring them out of it in time - in His time. If He starts the process He can complete it. My understanding.

God bless.

The Scripture tell us of a rich disciple that stayed secrete because he feared the Jews, but when all the others disciples where offended and scattered after claiming that they would not deny Jesus at any cost,
It was Joseph of Arimathaea that went in boldly unto Pilate, and craved the body of Jesus And bought fine linen, and took him down, and wrapped him in the linen, and laid him in a sepulchre which was hewn out of a rock, and rolled a stone unto the door of the sepulchre.

While we have no authoritive record of names, I cannot but wonder if there weren't quite a few pharisees and maybe even saducees who bowed their heads in response to Peter's Pentecost sermon. 3000 was a lot of people, and so many of the common people were already convinced.

Just a speculation, and it is obvious from the rest of the New Testament writings that the rage against Jesus continued. It's just that the light goes on for individuals one at a time, and I love to watch God pluck some from the fire in the midst of the struggle.

Let's turn this around a little bit. It is difficult to speak about men and women in a foreign land when we, ourselves, are not there. So let's bring this to the homefront.

I live in the south, right smack in the middle of the Bible belt. Cultural Christianity is very, very prominent here. Most everyone has a slightly more moral outlook on life than the average American, a slightly greater knowledge of the Bible than the average American, and we speak of Jesus more often than the average American. Almost everyone goes to church and almost everyone prays--at the very least before each meal.

I could run around talking about Jesus with almost everyone and expect little consequences. However, whenever anyone starts quoting scripture or contradicting what is conceived as "normal" Christianity with what the Bible actually says. Whenever anyone starts to hold others accountable to what the Word actually says, then things begin to become problematic. You get labelled as an extremist here or just a person who is a little too zealous for Jesus. And if you persist in it, then you get tuned out. After that, no one listens.

So, should one "hide-out" within cultural Christianity in order to win more people?

Here is what I see: let's be more loving. Let's be less hard. Let's sugar-coat everything until it rots the teeth of those who partake of it.

Here is what I don't want: Let's just roll into the churches and slaughter everyone with doctrine and the word of God and those who survive can join us.

Here is what I am advocating: Truth in love. Let us deliver the Gospel in love. What does that look like? I think it looks more like Athanasius--hard truth, motivated by love for the Church and love for the Lord and love for the Lost--than it looks like Mother Teresa--hardly any truth, but piles of love and affection.

I am not saying we should have less love in our presentation of the Gospel. We should have more truth.

If that is confusing, please let me know and I will clarify.

I think it is dangerous to develop doctrine over speculations, brothers.

I have read to many stories in the Bible of deliverance--Shadrach, Meshach, Abed-Nego, everyone in Acts, etc to accept that you can secretely follow the Lord and it be acceptable.

So where is the line drawn? Show me in the scriptures that there is even a line and show me in the scriptures where that line is drawn.

From what I have read, Persecuted Christians are not a special class of believers, brother. The bible says that ALL those who want to live a godly life in Christ Jesus will be persecuted.

The threat of death should not be viewed as a worse form of persecution. And I don't see where the death of a believer or threat of such prompts anyone in the scriptures to employ the tactics which we are discussing here.

just-in,

but we ARE being challenged. Right now. The whole world is daring us to reveal ourselves and declare the truth. Persecution hasn't hit America yet because Christians are satisfied with being marginally obedient and marginally zealous for the Gospel.

Brother,

Here is my issue: The church is NOT perfect. It never has been throughout history. We cannot take stories outside of the scriptures and indoctrinate them into facts.

That is exactly what Rob Bell and Benny Hinn and Gnostics and other heretics have done. They take experiences outside of the scriptures and levy those so that they have more weight and authority than the Word of God. Then when people start complaining, they take 3 verses out of the Bible and justify what they are doing.

Should we not be better men than that?

THAT is exactly my point. Our charismatic friends (not all of them, mind you) initiated the laughing revival, the pensacola revival, etc, etc, etc and always claim that we are putting God in a box when we confront those heresies with Scripture.

God does indeed work in mysterious ways. However, just because it is mysterious does not make it a work of God. He has given us everything we need for life and godliness. How can I rightly judge what is happening if I have no basis on which to judge? If I present the Scriptures and then you invalidate them with "Let God be God" then, if I am wrong and I decide to agree with you, then I have moved from something rock solid for defense to something like quick sand. I could right off everything as a move of God by saying things like that.

by appolus on 2014/2/12 13:02:12

There is one Body of Christ, and the word of God and the Holy Spirit that leads and guides us in ways that never contradict the word. There is no group elevated above another in the Body and we have one leader whom we follow. The Scriptures will be our guide, illuminated by the Holy Spirit, not the actions of men..........bro Frank--

very good word Frank. Jesus Himself set the standard and example and each one is called to follow.

rdg

by just-in on 2014/2/12 13:27:35

Jesus IS the standard and the Head of every man (1 Cor 11:3). I am very confident that He can lead His sheep much better than I can. There is absolutely no contest in that regard.==

i can give an amen to that!(smile)
rdg

Brother Blaine,

As I have already stated and repeat again: I am not saying God is not moving there.

What I am saying is thus: It is DANGEROUS to indoctrinate any supposed experience as truth. God may tell me in a vision that I need to go to Africa. But that doesn't mean that God is going to appear to every believer in a vision and send them on a mission trip.

God may indeed be moving in those countries in the way in which you describe, my issue was and still is that we need to be careful in indoctrinating those experiences as "this is what a move of God looks like." Here is a good example of what I am saying:

There are some brothers here that get so ANGRY when Eric Holder just decides not to enforce the law or when he gives special privileges or leniencies to certain groups.

But in the same breath, they will praise law enforcement officers who refuse to enforce certain laws that have been passed in the proper channels.

The issue is NOT whether we agree with this law or that law. This issue is that we are being hypocritical.

In this instance, there are many fringe theologies that have developed in the manner in which you are talking about. Some dreams or visions, etc that people claim to be legitimate. They get indoctrinated and now you have all these heretical sects of Christianity. We MUST be careful to exam the events in full detail and see the fruits of them before we hastily claim it as a move of God. That is ALL I am saying.

I do believe God can and does give people dreams and visions and I do believe that God can use dreams to bring people to Jesus Christ. But everyone who claims to have been brought to Christ in such a manner will get no special privilege from me in regards to the fruit that they bear.

Blaine not sure I understand your last post at all or who you are talking too. No one has said that Jesus can not bring those in persecuted places to Himself in dreams. Of course God can and does bring those in the middle east to Himself but that doesn't change the fact that He still requires the same submission and obedience from each one of us. He still requires that we die to self, repent and turn from sin, and take up our cross daily to follow Him.

I will agree with you that God loves those in the middle east but He loves us here in the west too equally and He expects the same devotions and obedience from every one of us. He expects us to die to the things of this world and to follow hard after Him. The Bible tells us that no one is above another we are all servants unto the King.

Blaine you believe those who are persecuted in other countries are special to God and so do I, I just happen to also believe that you and I are special to Him too!

rdg

I found this great article on this exact subject.

http://www.gotquestions.org/insider-movement.html

Also,

Here is an article that describes exactly what is going on regarding Muslims in those countries. While I don't agree with everything in it, I believe it is genuine.

http://www.christianpost.com/news/entire-mosques-coming-to-christ-in-north-africa-says-former-church-planter-72123/

Hi bro Frank

appolus wrote: ///I think Peter may be a good example of denying Jesus in order to save his own life. Obviously Peter was a totally broken man for doing this, not a wise man.///

appolus wrote: ///Yet after Pentecost we see a very different Peter and a very different group of men who had scattered when Jesus was arrested. What was different? Obviously the baptism of the Holy Spirit gave them a power they never possessed before. Now we see Peter preaching to a vast crowd, a crowd very willing and capable or tearing him to pieces and he accuses them of having crucified the Christ. ///

I agree, but even after Pentecost even after being Baptized with the Holy Spirit and preaching boldly and being completely sold out for the cause of Christ.
We must remember (EDIT ADD : If I understand those Scriptures correctly)that even after all that and close to 20 years after the Cross of Jesus, we still see the man Peter being intimidated and making a poor decision based on the fear of what men thought.

Hi just-in

just-in wrote: ///What do you think? Were Joseph and Nicodemus "secret" disciples for a season? Or at least seekers, and they became obvious when they requested the body of Jesus and buried Him? I think at the least it raised a lot of questions in the minds of the other Sanhedrin members regarding their feelings and loyalty to Jesus///

What do you think could the rich Joseph member of the Sanhedrin have been the rich young ruler that Jesus Loved but went away sorrowful because he was rich and not yet willing to pay the price ?

many that are first shall be last; and the last first.

Hi just-in

good points,
It seemed that I had heard at sometime that they could have been the same person.

So I was meditating today on some ways that it could fit but you have brought out some really good points that makes me lean against the idea.

thank you

Hi bro Frank

good points,

appolus wrote :///" I think there may be a difference from boldly preaching the truth without fear or regard for one's life and being able to stand for the truth within the confines of one's own circles. I believe that we are talking about two different kinds of fears here."///

I had not thought of it that way before, good observation.

appolus wrote :///Now I believe the old Peter would have responded like that, headstrong and proud. Now we see the wisdom and the mighty work that God had truly done in Peter. It's not our word, its not our ministry, its all His and there is a wonderful security in the man of God about this........bro Frank///

Thank you for the insight bro.