Have any of you heard of this group before. I ask because 2 of my friends who are relatively new believers have sold their possessions and moved to Texas. I'm very concerned for them. I was wondering if anyone has any information on this group. Here is a link to their website. www.thechurchofwells.com
Tony Mano has an excellent podcast concerning this church.
if you google Tony Mano church at Wells on cross encounter radio. You should be able to pull up the link. I believe in listening to the podcast you will get the information you desire.
I would urge you to pray for your friends. Pray that they come out of this church. And I urge you yourself to not engage any members of the church. As you listen to the podcast you will see why.
Blaine
Have any of you heard of this group before. I ask because 2 of my friends who are relatively new believers have sold their possessions and moved to Texas. I'm very concerned for them. I was wondering if anyone has any information on this group. Here is a link to their website. www.thechurchofwells.com
Yes, I have looked into this group and found them to be very deceived and are either heading in the direction of a cult or are already a cult. It is a sad situation and hits home because on the surface they seem to be on fire for street evangelism and endorse many giants of the faith. But when you start hearing their sermons/teachings and reading their writings they start getting seriously weird in certain areas. They are very controlling and manipulative. They teach that if you live with unsaved parents or relatives you must leave if you want to be pleasing to God. They divide over non-essentials such as whether or not you watch TV or sports. They are quick to pronounce someone unsaved over such trivial things. Just recently Tony Miano did a 3 hour blog talk radio show on them. Here is the link to the podcast:
http://www.blogtalkradio.com/cross-encounters/2014/02/17/the-church-of-wells-is-it-a-cult
Just today on my Facebook page my friend Mike Corrothers posted this after he listened to the podcast:
"The young man mentioned in the interview with Tony Miano, has come to our fellowship his name is Masao Gonthiet, he is half Japanese and half American. He did many of the same things at our fellowship. Speaking in King James English. Bursting into song for no reason at all. He even went to Lee & Nidia' house, he asked them for their testimony. Him and his friend that was with him. Then they told them that they were not saved, and that they needed to repent or they were going to hell.
Masao himself even attempted to recruit me . On the phone he asked me if him and a friend could stay at my house. That he had some things you wanted to tell me. He also mentioned that he would like to invite me to the Church of wells. I refused. Yet he continued to call for a while. Later I heard that he had married a 16 year old girl. And she was pregnant with his child, and was living on the compound in Wells, Texas.
Many young people are living there now. In what can only be described as what the first man in the interview with Tony had said. You can't leave. You can't even make a decision on your own without discussing it with an elder. Many are being deceived in this cult. I was not surprised in Tony's interview to hear Masao's name. May God mercy on him. I hope and pray that he will realize someday that he is misled, and is going a stray from the gospel of Jesus Christ."
Here are some more links that may be of interest:
http://www.ketknbc.com/news/exclusive-interview-with-former-church-of-wells-me
http://www.ketknbc.com/news/exclusive-part-2-interview-with-former-church-of-w
http://www.texasmonthly.com/story/is-the-church-of-wells-a-cult
Thanks for your guys advice. It has been a sobering thing to see my friends get swallowed up into this group. We were all on "fire" for the Lord, but I'm realizing Satan was playing off of our pride at times. Because we had been exposing ourselves to extreme holiness preaching, (listening to alot of Ravenhill, Washer,) we became so introspective and began questioning alot of what we had been taught. The enemy moved in quickly and captured them.
Looking at the website, on face value it looks like a lot of relatively young men with a lot of zeal, but without the stabilising influence of mature men
keeping them from going to extremes and error.
One of the elders there is Sean Morris who spoke at the SI Indiana conference a few years ago, so maybe Greg can give us some more insight on him.
All three elders are young men, which is an obvious concern.
Looking at the website, on face value it looks like a lot of relatively young men with a lot of zeal, but without the stabilising influence of mature men
keeping them from going to extremes and error.One of the elders there is Sean Morris who spoke at the SI Indiana conference a few years ago, so maybe Greg can give us some more insight on him.
We have taken off that short devotional message that he was allowed to share in an impromptu fashion. I personally had time to travel with 2 of the young leaders of this group many years ago. From the fruit I have seen and from testimonies of other elder brothers they are not able to recieve any correction or guidance in the ways of the Lord. They feel superior and elevated in their standing of truth and will not humble themselves to realize they have erred.
I would strongly counsel any brethren to not associate with them and to encourage anyone they know in the group to leave the group. When you have all of the true brethren in America warning against them then you know something is wrong, but sadly these 3 leaders have not seen this. They recently spoke out against Carter Conlon in a false prophetic way.
Many godly men have clearly warned and shared not to associate with them: Keith Daniel, Paul Washer, Don Courville and others.
It is sad that they "use" Ravenhill, and Rolfe Barnard to support what they do but these men would reject them in their prideful stance on themselves being right and any other assembly them theirs is wrong.
They are self-appointed Elders who are closed themselves off from the rest of the body of Christ. The most alarming is their stance to control the people who are converted under them to dis-associate with all other believers and especially family calling them all "unbelievers" even if they have a profession of faith.
Before my friends were captured, we had a meeting with them and one of the members of the Church of Wells who had drove all the way from Texas to New Jersey. I believe his name was William Pierce. My friends had only been around this guy for a couple of days and when I saw them it was as if they took on a whole new persona. No emotion, very somber, speaking robotically. It reeked of false humility and it was almost like they were giving the "correct" biblical answers to the questions that were raised. In our attempt to stop our friends from being captured by Wells, we were put on trial and our professions of faith were being attacked. The scriptures were being butchered, William Pierce was using the book of Proverbs to attack and silence anyone he felt threatened by. For example, one of us was speaking rather passionately about our concerns of what was going on, and William Pierce started using the text, "if a man doens't bridle his toungue his religion is in vain." He then began to discredit our stance on the scriptures and by the end of the night they wouldn't even call us brothers. They kept saying things like light has no fellowship with darkness and you must come to the light. The problem was the "light" was their truth and manipulation of the scriptures. It was the most bizarre experience I've ever been apart of. The Bible was being used as a weapon to attack and wound.
n our attempt to stop our friends from being captured by Wells, we were put on trial and our professions of faith were being attacked.
Thank you for sharing your story in this regard. I witness this happen many times where they would spend 1-4 hours with an individual and systematically convince them they are unsaved and then try and get them saved the right way. It was grieving to watch this happen and for good true brothers who were giving them hospitality in their home also.
It is rare that I want to publicly step out to share in this way but this group is hurting many true remnant saints and I want to be clear with this testimony that I am sharing online that they are hurting many and not submissive to any authority except their own.
I stand with brother Greg and others in regard to these people. My wife and I personally know someone who is entrenched in this group, and it breaks our hearts, knowing how much we love her and her family. We pray for them.
Amen brothers and sisters. When we are young and immature it can be easy for us to be gullible and deceived by extremes which look and sound good on the surface but are dangerous and harmful at the core. In the past I have fallen for certain unbiblical extremes but God has been faithful to discipline me and show me where I have erred. So I can relate to this group to a certain extent, and my heart goes out to them in sincere prayer for them to realize and repent of their error.
I believe this should serve as a warning to all of us who love Christ-centered holiness preaching and Christ-centered revival. We must guard against certain extremes. I believe this should also serve as a warning to those who are continuists when it comes to the gift of prophecy. This group is heavily into prophesying against biblical, God-fearing churches, pronouncing unreasonable judgments even against solid churches and pastors, as brother Greg pointed out regarding Carter Conlon and TSC. I watched one of the videos of that leader in which he prophecies against brother Carter and it was totally uncalled for and had no biblical grounds at all.
May we take heed that in our zeal for holiness and truth we don't get caught up in serious error.
I am familiar with a couple of the young men in question and in fact spent several hours with one of them trying to reach him. I stand with bro Greg and the others on this issue.............. bro Frank
This is from: http://www.newswithviews.com/Roth/laurie414.htm
=====
Witnesses have said that now Church members are being constantly flooded with ‘martyrdom’ sermons. They are told that they will be martyred for Christ and that when the evil pressure and heat builds big enough they will go into one of their homes together and go up in a holy fire.’ Now, they are training the members to expect death and be ready to follow orders. They are the ‘godly persecuted ones,’ Is the Jim Jones saga closer than we realize?
Church members reading this…NOW is the time to WAKE UP. Whether you understand everything that is happening to you or not -- GET OUT. Even if you don’t trust yourself anymore, trust me then ”“ GET OUT. It is time to leave and get back on the REAL track with the Lord Jesus, your life and family. Go somewhere in Wells and call the number below. Don’t announce it just do it. Someone will get back to you and get you out. Or, email us and someone will get back to you with a safe exit plan. Do it!
Call: 206-984-6859
Email: churchofwellsexitplan@hushmail.com
Are we seeing a repeat of the Branch Davidians in Waco Texas?.
This quite an eye opener for me, having never heard about this group and maybe there is someyhing for all of us to learn about the dangers of deception that can easily overtake the most unlikely people.....
What I mean is, these guys seem to have been known by and involved with many on SI or related ministries at some point in the past and had a zeal for being wholeheartedly for the Lord. Yet they have ended up seperating themselves and falling into deception.
Many of us can look at the current state of western Christianity, see the apostasy and even call for a remnant to come apart from this and seek the Lord in true gatherings. I have such a heart, but here can be the danger if we do not judge our hearts correctly. Such a desire and such zeal if we are not careful and open to correction can lead to spiritual pride and setting ourselves above others.
This sort of deception does not happen all at once, it is a gradual thing. I would guess that they probably started of with a godly desire and right spirit, but gradually wrong issues, thoughts, emotions etc were allowed to become established in the heart and before you know it deception is taking hold and then you become the one deceiving others.
I do pray that eyes will be opened here and that they will receive godly correction before it is too late.
May God keep us all from self deception of any type and help us to remain humble and depending on Him, realising that we do not yet possess all truth and can still need to be shown where we have missed it in some area.
When we are young in the faith we need to use extreme caution when listening to men like Ravenhill, Keith Daniel, Washer, Barnard. The reason for this is because these men are mature and often speak of things that are very advanced in Christianity. When concepts such as zealous separation and holiness and sanctification and extreme prayer and fasting are put forth, these (although good in themselves), can be filtered wrongly by a young zealot and ultimately used for destruction rather than life.
This is what happens when young, zealous believers do not allow themselves to be properly "discipled" in a Paul-Timothy fashion, but rather hit the preaching fields and pulpits like maverick fireballs. Many Pastors (well-meaning) can be unloving in actually allowing them soapboxes, disregarding Paul's warning in permitting unproven novices a place in ministry.
There is a reason for this: Look at the harm that comes when the poisoned fruit tree finally ripens. They not only destroy themselves, but many others who unsuspectingly come under the shade to find sanctuary and food. It is the inverse effect of coming under a "good tree"; i.e. many are blessed and fed. Good trees take time to grow, with lots of pruning and long, oftentimes hard seasons. Bad trees, like weeds, shoot up right away with brilliant colors and berries. They attract a lot of attention, and they seem healthy and productive. But without the tedious pruning shears of wisdom, patience and pain they instead become trees of destruction.
Yes, I agree with Paul that there is evidence here of lack of discipleship - BUT!
This is an example of giving a "novice" a place that they were not ready for.
I was at the SI conference where the founders of this group were given opportunity to share. I expressed my concerns that very conference to several.
Greg Gordon was not at this particular conference, but I spoke with him about my concerns.
Older brothers must take some responsibility for failing to see the danger these young novice where placed in.
May we all learn - "do not hastily lay hands upon anyone".
Hindsight is always 20/20 but these young men traveled with older, well known, highly respected brothers.
Spirit guided insight and foresight must be received so as to not place a novice in a position where he can become puffed up and fall into the same condemnation as the devil.
makrothumia
I had never heard of this before but in seeing this thread I checked into it a little, immediately sensing in my spirit that it is just another of man's attempts to organize or systematize a New Testament Church. Shortly after checking out their website I saw this in today's reading in "Open Windows" by T. Austin-Sparks.
Make every effort to keep the unity of the Spirit through the bond of peace. (Ephesians 4:3 NIV)
The new creation is a company, it is a Body indwelt by the Holy Spirit, actuated by the Holy Spirit, actually made one by the Holy Spirit. "In one Spirit were we all baptized into one body” (1 Cor. 12:13). The oneness is the oneness of the Holy Spirit. "Giving diligence to keep the unity of the Spirit” (Eph. 4:3), not to make it but to keep it. A new creation.
Well now, of course that is just the key that opens the door to everything when you see what new creation Life means. And with that you introduce the whole matter of the proper order, the proper regulated order of heavenly Life. Heavenly Life is according to heavenly law. It is not lawless. Each member of this body is not a law unto himself or herself. We are bound by this integrating, regulating law, that we are not allowed to be independent. Here the Holy Spirit forbids it. We are not allowed to take the law into our own hands. We are not allowed to act as individuals; the Holy Spirit will not allow it. There is a regulating order with this Life. This Life expresses itself according to its own laws, as life does in every part of the organic creation. It follows its own lines. That part of the creation follows the laws of the life which it possesses, and this is the Life of the Spirit, and you have not to organize or systematize this. Immediately you begin to do i t, you bring death in. It is as fatal to try and make a New Testament church after the New Testament pattern as it is to have no pattern at all! It can be deathly to do that. The thing happens if the Life has its way. We have learned this, yet, much as we know about the truth, we are still so much governed by our own natural life, even in our spiritual activities. There is disorder and running before the Spirit. However, we are all in the school, and we are just stating the laws, the principles and the truth that here you have no need to go and organize something on a New Testament basis. It will come about if the Holy Spirit is really having His way in terms of Life.
The very first time I met one of those young men I was deeply disturbed as were the rest of the men of God that were with me. This was in 2009. I spent almost four hours trying to break through to this kid but I believed him to be deeply disturbed and he accepted none of us as genuine brothers. Very sad...........bro Frank
The very first time I met one of those young men I was deeply disturbed as were the rest of the men of God that were with me. This was in 2009. I spent almost four hours trying to break through to this kid but I believed him to be deeply disturbed and he accepted none of us as genuine brothers. Very sad...........bro Frank
I echo brother Frank's sentiments here that there is a spiritual delusion over them and pride. They are not trying to start a church but control people and justify themselves. I would strongly caution anyone to visit this church in wells or try to interact with them. If you know of people who have gone out to them do warn them of this group. Many well known godly men are starting to warn saints of this group.
Older brothers must take some responsibility for failing to see the danger these young novice where placed in.May we all learn - "do not hastily lay hands upon anyone".
Brother, yes after they spoke at that event I felt to ask them to come with me to the other conferences (not to speak) in the UK. 2 of them came: Sean Morris and Ryan Ringnald. They were accepting of me at first and were enamoured with traveling with me etc because I ran SermonIndex. In the end they dis-fellowshipped me because I strongly confronted many things in their beliefs. I had a first-hand witness of how they dealt with people to try and systematically un-save them and show them they are unsaved so they can preach their own gospel to have them saved "under them".
Sadly an elder brother and others in a fellowship had their children inter-marry with some of the leaders. This has caused great heart-ache because now those family members are not associating at all with their families and calling them all unsaved.
So brother I feel they had a long history of many times being asked to share in meetings and given "platforms" to propagate their messages. I know many of these elder brothers in different places that allowed this and regret it. But in the end even if they were not given small times to share in churches and assemblies they still would have continued on the path they are on.
I believe they were always self-appointed. And were quick to dismiss ALL of Christendom as false and they know only 20 or so people who were saved in Church history. Such thinking is erroneous and full of pride and error.
I do agree with you brother "do not hastily lay hands upon anyone". May we encourage younger brethren to learn to submit to authority, be teaching, humble and not seek a place above other brethren especially by force.
May we all pray for these young men that they would be humbled by the Lord in His grace.
I remember about 2 years after I had been saved, I felt like I was "called" to preach in the style of David Wilkerson and thunder the same fiery indictments Ravenhill had leveled at the church. The pastor of the small AG church my wife and I attended at the time allowed me to preach to the "youth group" every Friday night. Because of my zeal and fierce preaching, many kids started attending the group and we grew quickly. They loved to hear me rant and rave about evetything that was wrong with the church and the apostate seminary "cemetery" schools. Even some of their parents started attending, and they began to refer to me as "Pastor Paul". This stroked my ego, of course. Eventually talk started going around that our real pastor ought to sit down and allow me to take the wheel Sunday mornings as well.
Many people, even many seasoned believers, do not understand how the enemy works. There is a grave reason Paul warned Timothy about letting new converts into the pulpit. Many well-meaning men of God do not heed this, perhaps either because they think they will be seen as too hard, too controlling, too judgmental. But there is a crucial spiritual reason for not allowing an immature believer a public pulpit (except perhaps to share his or her testimony).
When an immature believer is suddenly granted ministerial authority and blindly endorsed, wrong things begin to happen. Firstly, his or her spiritual pride inflates. This is the normal reaction of witnessing postive results from the power of preaching. Even though the results may be of soul-power, the believer is too young and inexperienced to properly deal with the resulting praise from men. And the enemy is always nearby to reinforce their spiritual prowess and attribute any glory they see to their so-called "anointing" based upon some effort of their own (like prolonged prayer, fasting, etc.) This deception is very subtle, and as long as the results keep coming, they stick to their regiment.
Soon, however, a dawning realization emerges: the reason others are not "anointed" like you is because they are too compromised, too yoked to the world, do not pray enough, or fast enough, or read the Bible enough (usually a combination of all the above). In short, they are not like you. And so, a subtle accusation arises within, that begins to look upon all others who do not preach or live to your standard as lukewarm and/or apostate. Satan is establishes the stronghold, and the believer is completely unaware. The role of the stronghold is to prevent the heeding of wisdom and warning from more mature saints. As soon as a brother more wise tries to reason with them, the castle's drawbridge comes up and you're left talking with a rock wall of lifeless Bible verses and cherry-picked prooftexts.
This is the danger of spiritual pride. I seriously think it less dangerous to become ensnared in pornography or fall into adultery, because at least then you know you're in sin and repentance (if you love the Lord) is inevitable when God brings His rod. But with spiritual pride, there is no repentance, but further castigations, judgments, accusations, brainwashings and all under the assumption of being perfectly obedient at the center of God's will.
This is why Jesus' most acerbic indictments were not leveled at the adulterers, but at those who taught the law in high fallutin ministerial positions. If you think of it, this is a most amazing verse to ponder: "The tax collectors and prostitutes will enter heaven before you" (Matt. 21:31) - black and white, spoken to religious people encumbered by pride in the name of God who saw themselves as perfectly obedient.
In my first post on this thread I wrote:
They are very controlling and manipulative. They teach that if you live with unsaved parents or relatives you must leave if you want to be pleasing to God. They divide over non-essentials such as whether or not you watch TV or sports. They are quick to pronounce someone unsaved over such trivial things.
I am not implying that anyone else who posted certain things about the Church of Wells should also recant anything, as my situation in posting those things is unique. I understand that others who have posted have taken appropriate steps to try to reach out to them privately first. And others who have posted have not made certain kinds of statements like I made about them without enough warrant.
Brother Paul West, I deeply appreciate the insights you have shared, as they resonate with me to a large extent, though I've never been in any official ministerial position in a church.
Edit: I also apologize for certain mean things I wrote which could have been avoided or worded differently in a more respectful manner(such as saying their teachings are seriously weird).
Oracio wrote : ///Brother Paul West, I deeply appreciate the insights you have shared, as they resonate with me to a large extent, though I've never been in any official ministerial position in a church.///
They also resonate with me to a large extent, though I've also never been in any official ministerial position in a church.
I find that often times it seems that God brings an extreme caricature of myself to the surface in which I am forced to make judgement about but by doing so, areas of my own life that need improving are revealed
I think what brother Paul wrote resonates with many of us because we have all experienced the rashness of our youthful zeal in different ways. Not that youthful zeal in itself is a bad thing. We certainly need the energy and zeal of youth in the church.....if tempered by a respect for mature counsel from Godly fathers in the faith.
"I have written unto you, fathers, because ye have known him that is from the beginning. I have written unto you, young men, because ye are strong, and the word of God abideth in you, and ye have overcome the wicked one." (1 John 2:14).
Interesting that the commendation of young men is their strength and having the word in them, but to the 'fathers' it is that they know God.
Having strength and the word is not enough on it's own. We need to know God and this comes through time, maturity, through testings and trials in life.
Oracio, Did you manage to get through to these young men in any way?Would they consider sitting down with some 'fathers in the faith' to listen to some correction? This is my prayer for them. My wife and I feel for them as we can sense their zeal and passion.
Heydave wrote
Oracio, Did you manage to get through to these young men in any way?Would they consider sitting down with some 'fathers in the faith' to listen to some correction? This is my prayer for them. My wife and I feel for them as we can sense their zeal and passion.
Brother, I only briefly managed to contact one leader to the best of my knowledge(I sent a message to two leaders but only one leader responded). I shared some brief words with him and he replied briefly and that was it. Let's continue to keep them and everyone involved in prayer.
Thanks for this post brother. Through this whole experience I've realized that I was being deceived by the enemy through the knowledge I was obtaining from listening to some of the preachers you've mentioned. My friends, in their zeal for the truth, have been deceived. I now see that Satan is most effective when masquerading as an angel of light. My friends really were seeking the Lord but they weren't grounded enough in their identity in Christ. All the messages we were hearing were about sanctification and what our walk should look like. I'm convinced they became to focused on their walk rather than on Jesus.
I live less than 20 miles from Wells, TX.
I believe that a few (and very few, I might add) of the things they say are the truth, but most are cultish and a lie.
The enemy is accomplishing 2 goals:
1) If a brother listens to them and begins to follow them, then it hardens them against the Gospel because they believe they have already heard the truth and have no need to hearing anything else. Also, it takes their eyes off of Jesus and puts them on themselves. They look within to find their security or they look to the leading men to find their security. They start reading all kinds of preachers and teachers from the past and look to them to find their security. They grow in knowledge, but their love grows cold.
2) Those who are actually lost will hear their version of the Gospel--which is no Gospel at all--and become hardened to anything that will call them to repent. I have seen it first hand, especially at SFA campus. You can't tell anybody there that salvation requires repentance because they always remember these guys from Wells or Jesse Morrell and the rest who keep showing up. But fortunately, it doesn't depend on us. The Lord promised that His Word would not return void and it would accomplish the purpose that He set forth for it.
Edit-------------------
Okay, there is probably 1 more goal that could be added. A lot of well meaning Christians on the SFA campus see what these guys do, so they change up their tactics in order to combat them. Rather than calling people to repent and believe the Gospel, sometimes they kind of work lost people in to Christianity through "discipleship". I remember one time there was an apology booth so that Christians could apologize for how bad other Christians were acting. Either way, in an effort to seem less confrontational and more loving than the guys from Wells, they have softened to Gospel so that it is much more appealing. It makes me sad, because the Gospel is the power of God to salvation for everyone who believes.
That is why imperitive that everything we do be rooted in love. I don't do this perfect, but it is always a good reminder. The truth is important, no doubt, but never at the expense of loving one another.
But at the same time, love is no excuse for rejecting truth.
By keeping our eyes focused on Jesus, both can be obtained in the right balance, and when we stumble or are stumbling, we can always approach the throne of grace to find help in our time of need.
Saints I do understand the caution and I personally have repented over being over zealous in my walk that is the main reason I invited them to come out with me to the UK because I could share with them from experience some of my over zealousness and lack of submission to any authority etc.
So I do repeat that this group is quite dangerous and will cause great confusion and hurt in saints lives who get involved with them. I know personally many families that have been deeply hurt.
Here is 1 video of people also hurt and witnessing to this, there are MANY more stories:
Cross Encounters Radio: Is The Church of Wells a Cult?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xe6uzPs38xY
I do believe the Lord can bring them to a place of repentance and healing. I have prayed much that they are humbled by the Lord in His grace.
===
We have taken off that short devotional message that he was allowed to share in an impromptu fashion. I personally had time to travel with 2 of the young leaders of this group many years ago. From the fruit I have seen and from testimonies of other elder brothers they are not able to recieve any correction or guidance in the ways of the Lord. They feel superior and elevated in their standing of truth and will not humble themselves to realize they have erred.
I would strongly counsel any brethren to not associate with them and to encourage anyone they know in the group to leave the group. When you have all of the true brethren in America warning against them then you know something is wrong, but sadly these 3 leaders have not seen this. They recently spoke out against Carter Conlon in a false prophetic way.
Many godly men have clearly warned and shared not to associate with them: Keith Daniel, Paul Washer, Don Courville and others.
It is sad that they "use" Ravenhill, and Rolfe Barnard to support what they do but these men would reject them in their prideful stance on themselves being right and any other assembly them theirs is wrong.
They are self-appointed Elders who are closed themselves off from the rest of the body of Christ. The most alarming is their stance to control the people who are converted under them to dis-associate with all other believers and especially family calling them all "unbelievers" even if they have a profession of faith.
From Paul Washer's recent Twitter postings regarding the Church of Wells:
"WARNING: The men of history that are on the Church of Wells homepage would not agree w/them & would oppose their name being used by them."
"WARNING: Understand that if anyone associated w/ the Church of Wells uses my name or ministry it is against my will & proves their deception."
- Paul Washer
I came across this video of Street Church and Church of Wells elders having a Skype discussion. I found it to be very interesting and revealing of what the CoW elders believe regarding the Body of Christ and individual salvation.
I came across this video of Street Church and Church of Wells elders having a Skype discussion. I found it to be very interesting and revealing of what the CoW elders believe regarding the Body of Christ and individual salvation.
It seems to me that there is very little to separate this church in Wells, Texas, from those who are now criticising them, as far as teaching is concerned. In fact given the age and experience of these young men it is almost certain that it would be possible to put the finger on where they have derived their doctrines from. By which I mean precisely how it is that they could have taken a remnant theology and made ruin of it. Over the few years I have been posting here on SI I have repeatedly seen this same underlying teaching presented in ways which are confusing and potentially ruinous for the very same reasons these young men have now made ruin of it, and are on that basis being themselves made ruin. The cult aspect is of course another issue in its fullest sense, in as much as it has to do with their particular personalities and the way Satan has or is deceiving them into a specifically personality driven ministry. The fact that this will be centred on a particular idea, of a remnant theology, is almost incidental in this regard.
I wonder when those who themselves made ruin the true meaning of a remnant will accept responsibility for, and repent of their own ministries which have massively contributed to this position. In fact what you are seeing here may well be the sting in the tail of what happens when we insist on condemning so many believers to hell fire (and intend that to mean eternal destruction) and claiming to be prophetic in the way we do it. What did we think would happen when increasing numbers of men who have made public their own determination to reckon the vast majority of those who take the name of Christ as reprobate? The Australian brother who introduces this Skype call really makes just one real distinction between himself and these elders. It is that he (others), supposed sound teachers, would speak of a "those who are apostate" and then attribute to these apostate men and women (the majority of those who take the name of the Lord) as a "not having been saved in the first instance". Whereas this growing cult would specifically speak of those who are not part of the remnant "who will be dammed" but are nevertheless Spirit filled and born again at this point in time. In this sense the remnant position takes on a more sinister aspect, than the apostate theology which also speaks about a remnant.
If you want some real advise go and examine the many ministries which are now coming on board with this remnant or majorative apostate theology and you will easily see why such young men, without the balance of older more gracious men, have come to the place they have. You will find that there are many pious believers who take a version of this teaching precisely in either one or other of these terms. When did we ever get to thinking that we could press on others such a message and then miss the responsibility as to its effect? Personally I am not in the least surprised by all of this. I have listened with a growing disgust over two years now at the way some prominent men in the USA are preaching in this area of teaching remnant theology or a variation thereof.
Andrew Kelly, you have raised some valid points.
I think many of us on this forum would to one degree or another would be in agreement with the remnant view of the last days church. This is a understandable reaction to the position that the 'western' church finds itself in these days (in decline) and the easy believe-ism of proffesing Christians who think it is ok to continue in a lifestyle of sin.
All that said, it is however important how we respond to these issues in a way that does not elevate and seperate ourselves above others that appear to us to be compromised. We can proclaim the truth and set the highest standard as it is in line with scripture, but we should not use this to judge individuals and certainly not use it to dismiss people.
I have just watched some reports from the work in Asia from GFA and the multitudes that are being reached for the gospel and coming to faith in Christ. This is an indigenous work and there is no sense of elitism or questioning the genuineness of these converts. That is not to say not all who proffess faith will be truely converted, but that is not our job to make that judgement.
"But it is so ‘human’ to go to extremes! It is only as we know the danger, and rely upon God to guard us, that we can be kept spiritually sober, and balanced in truth. When we are conscious of the difficulties of it on account of our human limitations, we are less dogmatic in our statements to others about ourselves and our ‘views.’”
An interesting statement by Jessie Penn-Lewis from the Centrality of the Cross. Interesting, because she also went to some extremes, too and maybe that is why she was able to make this statement. Who has not gone to extremes in their search for the truth, and she is right, we rely on God to guard us and balance us in the truth.
Some time ago, a friend brought my attention to Mike Peter's group in Indianapolis and then my (long distance) friend sent me a large box of books from the Indianapolis fellowship (all written by Mike Peters). I began to read them and they all seemed very good but somewhere along the way, around the 5th or 6th book, I recognized that there was an inordinate amount of attention given to the Church, home church, house church, simple church, community, etc, etc.
What kind of trouble would this spell for a community of believers that becomes ingrown, introspective, exclusive or elite?
Mike's website http://allathisfeet.com has now become http://www.jesuslifetogether.com/
His http://dayofsmallbeginnings.com is no longer existing but it was just a link to allathisfeet.com.
Why do I post this? Because as you read http://www.jesuslifetogether.com/ you will find yourself agreeing with much of it and since they are a little bit farther down the road than the Church of Wells, you can actually view another site to witness the fallout of the Indianapolis Fellowship.
Many former member's testimonies, from around the country are consolidated on http://indianapoliscult.com
One of the common themes I recognize between these two is the alienation of family and anyone else that is not part of "the church".
A quote from someone who has siblings in the Indianapolis cult.
"My sister and brother have been in this cult for 20 years and NO my mother never saw any of her grandchildren. Worse yet we do not have any pictures either and know nothing about them it is very very sad"
http://localchurchdiscussions.com/vBulletin/showthread.php?p=30044
Other quotes:
"Yes, I am familiar with them. Ran into them a number of times over the years. Your initial concern is spot-on. Things you'll find there: the superiority of their group's revelation, condemnation of fallen Christianity (that means whoever is not among them), lots of unwritten rules, "organic" style talk, a clear clear clear leader, and last but not least, people who have gotten out of it and are glad to have done so.
Makes you wonder why we can't just believe in an awesome Jesus and accept being the plain New Testament church, regardless of its size, how it looks, how it conducts its services, etc. People are so bent on having an awesome church blueprint instead, and marginalizing Jesus into a cheerleader for that blueprint."
Post #5 reminds me a bit of the Church at Wells. And post #8 spots the deception:
btw, having been in the CII group and knowing how they operate, there is MUCH in the above excerpt that IS SUBTLE.
Just in the first few lines alone it's an attempt to make you fearful if you don't allow the leadership to point things out in your life, mostly non-moral things that have nothing to do with scripture, but the bait has already been taken, so the person in bondage and deception, confused and fearful will surrender their entire will to the authority of Mike Peters and his lieutenants.
"And the way satan does stuff…it’s always with mirrors where he tricks, deceives, justifies, and accuses others in order to justify self. And you are very susceptible to that if you don’t live exactly the way Jesus said to live here and embrace Truth the way Jesus said to embrace it..." This quote above is full of subtleties if you are in bondage to their authority. You are fearful of being deceived by Satan if you don't do things the way "Jesus" says. Only the thing is, it's not Jesus, it's the wishes of Mike Peters and those that think like he has trained them to think. Also, many people there are filled with doubts and questions so if you even begin to express them, you are guilty of the other things in the excerpt:
"If there are any "soft” spots in your heart for anything that you are holding onto, that you are lingering in, that you’re justifying yourself in or comparing to others in””then satan will find you out. And the storms will come and they will show what you’re worth. And it will always be "somebody else’s” fault because satan will make sure that you can feel that way about it. He will send you a great number of teachers to tell you what your itching ears want to hear. And, in fact, Paul said that if you don’t love the Truth””if you don’t agape the Truth, but you prefer the other stuff””that God Himself will send you a powerful delusion so that you will believe the lie."
If you know anything about mind control, you will see the subtleties there. It's an attempt to squelch free thinking and any resistance toward the questionable demands made on you.
Can you see it now?"
When you start reading the testimonies on http://indianapoliscult.com you will see that Mike is a master at controlling and manipulating people.
Back to my long-distance friend. We are no longer in touch, mainly because I would not accept Mike Peter's teaching. In rejecting Mike Peters, my friend thought I was rejecting him.
Everyone that is dissatisfied with their present situation and is seeking community life, should learn lessons from those who came out of the Indianapolis cult. I am not saying don't seek Home Church, Simple Church or Community, just beware of putting anything, even each other above the Lord. Because the Body of Christ is so identified with the Lord, it is very subtle how we are deceived into putting the Body before and over the Head.
But then is this not to say that those who have faith in Jesus are NOT converted?
Just heard that there was a large contingent of folks at Rick Warren`s church that was listening to David Platt last night. Who would have thunk it?
(Now truly a miracle would be to have Joel Osteen tune in to Secret Church)
Ok. Enough kidding. :) Back to original question. Only God knows the heart.
Enough rambling.
Headmaster.
RE: ///Andrew Kelly, you have raised some valid points.
I think many of us on this forum would to one degree or another would be in agreement with the remnant view of the last days church. This is a understandable reaction to the position that the 'western' church finds itself in these days (in decline) and the easy believe-ism of proffesing Christians who think it is ok to continue in a lifestyle of sin.///
He indeed has.
Edit : deleted unneeded ramble.
Oh! dear! I am a friend of one of those leaders on FB...I have met his wife and her family has stayed in our home. Last week I became aware of the problem there but had no idea of the extent. I considered it very strange he would take - what appeared to be a personal problem - to FB to air a personal grievance for all the world to see.
Thanks for the details. I know this family must be very sad...it must break their hearts. So sad...about breaks my heart, too.
ginnyrose
Oh! dear! I am a friend of one of those leaders on FB...I have met his wife and her family has stayed in our home. Last week I became aware of the problem there but had no idea of the extent. I considered it very strange he would take - what appeared to be a personal problem - to FB to air a personal grievance for all the world to see.
Sister there are many very hurt families including a brother that would be known to many on SermonIndex.
ABC recently did a documentary on the group:
Church of Wells Has Parents Asking Questions - ABC News
http://abcnews.go.com/WNT/video/church-wells-parents-questions-23202647
Church of Wells: Confronting the Elders | Video - ABC News
http://abcnews.go.com/Nightline/video/church-wells-confronting-elders-23210553
I fear for this young woman...my mind goes in a lot of different directions...oh! so sad. And her family...yes, I know of whom you speak.
Lord, have mercy!
How very interesting that we cannot talk about the teachings of Bill Gothard that have hurt many families and ruined others. You would think warning others (as in this thread) would tend to be a good thing. Just a rhetorical statement/observation.
How very interesting that we cannot talk about the teachings of Bill Gothard that have hurt many families and ruined others.
And has helped millions.
You would think warning others (as in this thread) would tend to be a good thing. Just a rhetorical statement/observation.
Brother, I honestly want you to consider moving onto another discussion forum where you have freedom to do as you really want to and not have to worry about biblical moderation or submission to such. I just feel it might be healthier for you instead of making such comments over and over on different issues of how you are not happy how we are handling things.
The Church of wells Elders have been connected with individual members of SermonIndex as well as used speakers from SermonIndex to support their teachings therefore it is an issue we felt led to address and allow.
I knew you were going to say "he has helped millions". Actually, about 2.5 million have attended his seminars, but that does not equate to "helping millions" anymore than the millions that Benny Hinn has addressed.
I have no issue with what you are doing about Wells and in fact I think it is good. I just wish you would be equal in your treatment with others who are seriously damaging people's lives.
And please, I am not unhappy, but I think you are unhappy with being questioned so don't turn it on me. Just because someone questions you does not mean they are unhappy or even in rebellion. Please remember you are just a moderator in an internet forum.
I don't want to make you stumble and it is clear you would like me to go, so I will leave. And I will leave with good memories of SI and good experiences. I think it is the best Christian forum on the net. The moderators are excellent and godly and I can't see how any of my appeals would diminish SI's reputation.
I want you to be at peace, so please kindly delete my userid. Use this post as my permission to do so. And with that, I pray God bless you and all the brothers and sisters that frequent SI.
Looking unto Jesus...
Saints,
A group of brethren have compiled a website to discern the Church of wells and post some public statements from ministry leaders to be weary of this group.
God bless you for showing me this website regarding the "church" of Wells.
I of course, perused it at length, and as you might know, there is recent "news" dated Jan of 2016, there is a very grievous phone video of one of the "elders" or "members" atop the spine of his being constructed home, rebuking and hollering at a dear man and his wife and child, denouncing him as "snake" and a "hypocrite"....and misusing Scripture in a most hellish way to further condemn this, what I would assume to be a Christian, man, who calmly asked him to stop haranguing his family or the man would call the sheriff.
Ever since our beloved brother Frank posted the other thread about this group, I've read and searched out writings and video's from both the "elders", and from townsfolk in Wells, as well as secular media. I've been absolutely crushed, grieved, and just broken. I am not ignorant about the dark side of man's heart, nor of the foul machinations of the accuser....regarding the "elders" of the "church" of Wells...the first portion of Scripture that popped into my soul, ESPECIALLY after watching the whole tragic "testimony" of that very broken young woman, Catherine Groves , ( which I will write about in a bit.) is this portion from Matthew chapter 18 and verses one thru five, directed at the three "elders":
"At that time the disciples came to Jesus, saying, "Who is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven?” And calling to him a child, he put him in the midst of them and said, "Truly, I say to you, unless you turn and become like children, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven. Whoever humbles himself like this child is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven.
"Whoever receives one such child in my name receives me, but whoever causes one of these little ones who believe in me to sin, it would be better for him to have a great millstone fastened around his neck and to be drowned in the depth of the sea."
The Holy Spirit put that in my heart, and if this three elders, TRULY, Fear God, in the light of their wickedness, THEY should be the ones quaking in witless fear, but pride and the flesh has blinded these "blind guides"...and one day, the Judgment Seat awaits....(us all)
what truly broke my heart was watching Catherine Grove give her rambling, incoherent "testimony" filmed by the "church". Obviously she is a deeply confused, troubled young woman. I have watched quite a few prisoners of war video, while in enemy hands,...talk, and she has that tenor of voice, and one can see the fear and confusion underlying, as I watched all 53 minutes of it, book-ended by these "elders" putting their hellish spin on this tragic video.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_a6o5Up3haI
Some have opined that this situation could devolve into a "Waco", and while that is a slight possibility. given the darkened nature of their hearts, but having listened to them, they strike me as soft upper middle class white boys, deluding themselves into believing they are John the Baptizers...in short, they don't seem like the type to get gunned up...But God forbid, as the years go by, I could see them cowardly go mental, lock the themselves and the poor souls trapped in this dark hole calling itself a church, locking the doors, and LITERALLY , burning the house down, Pray God that never happen.
in my grief, I just ask "why?"
in closing, I feel the Lord preparing me for the call to speak, exhort PUBLICALLY, but ONLY, when I hear our God , clearly give the CALL...and the release, to speak and exhort in the Love of Messiah Jesus....never before, because such would be folly without the Call, as I can say I fear God, and hold Jesus in reverential Awe and passionate Love, He is my All In All, Alpha and Omega, Baruch HaShem!
when I had finished reading and watching this hellishness, a message from Ian Paisley that always speaks to the way God leads me, also came to my heart...I know I've put it up a lot, but I beg you, bear with me, as I post it again...I do believe its germane in this terrible situation:
"Fundamentalism Versus Apostasy"
http://www.sermonaudio.com/playpopup.asp?SID=6863
your brother, neil
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