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Church bus accidents and church dinner sicknesses

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DEADn

I work in a food manufacturing plant and one of the things the lab department does is put posters of incidents in which people got sick because of not cooking food properly and/improper hygiene. I found several of them to be in church dinners and I have asked myself why do no avail. I think back when I got sick after a church dinner. I came home and threw up and I was find afterwards.
Is there any spiritual significance to these scenarios? Most churches usually praying a blessing over the food but in reality what does that 'blessing' really do?


Also, I have seen some stories of church vans flipping over because of a blown tire. How should that be address? I saw on the news tonight that a church van flipped over because of a blown tire and 2 people were killed as a result. I am left scratching my head. Am I trying to spiritualize it too much?

John

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sermonindex

Most churches usually praying a blessing over the food but in reality what does that 'blessing' really do?

John,

I am going to be honest with you my friend that many of your posts in the last years has been full of doubting God, His Word, His Promises, His Church. A prayer of blessing over a meal sanctifies it when its a prayer offered by true Christians. The Bible says that even a meal taken with poison could have no affect if prayed over and santified to the Lord. Of course no true christian would go ahead and test the Lord in that way but many I am sure have eaten things that were stale or not right and doing this not on purpose.

In America the majority of what you see as Christian churches, buses, dinners people etc are not Christian. Not all people who go to churches are true christians. Also life happens and bad things happen to some individuals who are Christians but much of life's sorrows are avoided because of God's special blessing on those who follow His ways. But still God will allow terrible circumstances to happen in the life's of His choice saints.

God is in full control. He can be trusted. To follow Him and not the ways of the world is the only way to life. To know about God and the Bible but to not follow Him nor have a true experience of being born-again will result in a life of hyprocrisy and darkness with doubting. A true Christian desires the things of God and not the things of the world.

L
Lysa


I have to agree with Greg, "when it's offered by true christians." And I will add those who "hear" His voice. I have an 80 year old friend (prayer warrior) and she went to a church dinner two months ago and as someone was praying over the meal, the Holy Spirit spoke to her and told her to pray again over her food. She was the only one who did not get sick and she ate the same food!

Praise the Lord!

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sermonindex

We walk by faith not by sight. Irregardless of the venue our whole day is trusting God. We should totally depend on Him for our protection.

Blaine

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twayneb

John,
A few years back, I was using my table saw and almost cut off my thumb. praise God I did not lose it, but it is numb and misshapen. I might ask God why it happened, but I already know the answer. I made a foolish mistake in what I did. On the other hand, I have been believing God for my health now for quite a few years. I work on a public school and as such have contact with everything that is going around. Yet, I have been ill only a handful of days on t hree years and have missed only two days work in three years. I believe that because I have entrusted that area to Him, and have sought His protection that He has been faithful and has protected me from sickness.

My point is that I know myself. I don't know what is on the heart of another. I believe God to protect me and sanctify my food, but I also try to be careful that I cook it sufficiently and don't let it sit our to long. I believe God for safe travel, but I also make sure my vehicle is sound. perhaps we don't see the faith or lack thereof in another. Perhaps we don't know the circumstances that lead to an accident. Let's face it, lack of maintenance is not something you typically overcome with faith.

What I do know is that I cannot judge the faithfulness of God by the circumstances of another man. Good is faithful no matter what others experience.

S
sermonindex

I know this is off topic, but as I was reading the title to the thread, I said to myself, "this was started by Deadn". Sure, enough it was. You know I've been here too long when I can tell who authored a post. :-)

G
ginnyrose

Church dinners - food poisonings...

Not near all of food poisonings occur at church functions. I suspect the reason these people post these alerts about church groups in your business is that if they would reveal that restaurants fed their customers tainted food they may face loss of business and revenue. And... churches will likely not sue for defamation.

Just this winter I was a victim of food poisoning...I was so dreadfully sick - never been so sick in my life. I was sick ALL over plus I hurt ALL over. It happened within 24 hours of eating at my favorite Mexican restaurant - had eaten there many times before. It was so bad I was about to ask my husband to take me to the emergency room - now you have to know it was really bad if I even begin to consider that because I rarely go to doctors. I had my husband pray for me at my worse point...I fell asleep and awoke feeling fine! God healed me!

At the same time a business owner from our church attended a business meeting in Chicago, ate their catered food and after he came home was dreadfully sick.

Did this make the news? Not that I am aware of. Did I contact the restaurant? No. Why? Because they would likely not owe up to it and I am not asking for any monetary compensation, either.

Such is life. Believers are not spared from the results of carelessness.

D
DEADn


I know this is off topic, but as I was reading the title to the thread, I said to myself, "this was started by Deadn". Sure, enough it was. You know I've been here too long when I can tell who authored a post. :-)

What made you think that I started this posting? Is there a character to my titles?

John

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DEADn

Now remember. my posting is about food poisoning at churches but also car accidents with church buses and van to the extend that some have been killed.

Greg, I have mulled over your comments and one of the things I wondered if if you are calling those people who got sick or injured non Christians?

As far as me doubting the Bible and God's Word. I think I believe it to an extent but as I have said in some previous postings I don't see the Power of God enough around me to cause me to reach out in more faith because sometimes nothing seems to happen. SO I tend to find myself on that balance beam at times just hanging on.


John

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DEADn


Church dinners - food poisonings...

Not near all of food poisonings occur at church functions. I suspect the reason these people post these alerts about church groups in your business is that if they would reveal that restaurants fed their customers tainted food they may face loss of business and revenue. And... churches will likely not sue for defamation.

Just this winter I was a victim of food poisoning...I was so dreadfully sick - never been so sick in my life. I was sick ALL over plus I hurt ALL over. It happened within 24 hours of eating at my favorite Mexican restaurant - had eaten there many times before. It was so bad I was about to ask my husband to take me to the emergency room - now you have to know it was really bad if I even begin to consider that because I rarely go to doctors. I had my husband pray for me at my worse point...I fell asleep and awoke feeling fine! God healed me!

At the same time a business owner from our church attended a business meeting in Chicago, ate their catered food and after he came home was dreadfully sick.

Did this make the news? Not that I am aware of. Did I contact the restaurant? No. Why? Because they would likely not owe up to it and I am not asking for any monetary compensation, either.

Such is life. Believers are not spared from the results of carelessness.

In my only experience of getting sick after a church dinner I came home and in 30 minutes I suddenly threw up. I didn't feel sick but suddenly it came and gone and I was fine before and after. It is one of those freak things that has always stayed with me wondering about the Power of God in such a situation. Maybe I am looking at it too hard. I don't know.

According to Greg's post it seems that true Christians should not be getting sick. This is what I am gathering but is that really true?

John

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TMK

Many churches still use 9 passenger vans which are essentially deathtraps. Statistics are overwhelming that these types of vehicles are very top heavy and prone to roll but many organizations continue to use them, including churches.

It has nothing to do with God but everything to do with the laws of physics, which God created.

If you eat tainted food you get sick (God's remedy) and if you turn sharply in a 9 passenger van, you will roll.

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rainydaygirl

hey john you said:As far as me doubting the Bible and God's Word. I think I believe it to an extent but as I have said in some previous postings I don't see the Power of God enough around me to cause me to reach out in more faith because sometimes nothing seems to happen. SO I tend to find myself on that balance beam at times just hanging on.--

as i read this i thought about Thomas, if you remember he was the one who doubted the others and said he would not believe. Sometimes your posts remind me a lot of Thomas. I realize you said you do struggle with faith because nothing is happening around you? after reading that i thought i would share this verse with you. remember what Jesus said to Thomas? maybe its time to stop doubting and believe. remember God does not have to prove Himself to any of us
rdg

John 20:24-29
But he said to them, "Unless I see the nail marks in his hands and put my finger where the nails were, and put my hand into his side, I will not believe.”

26 A week later his disciples were in the house again, and Thomas was with them. Though the doors were locked, Jesus came and stood among them and said, "Peace be with you!” 27 Then he said to Thomas, "Put your finger here; see my hands. Reach out your hand and put it into my side. Stop doubting and believe.”

28 Thomas said to him, "My Lord and my God!”

29 Then Jesus told him, "Because you have seen me, you have believed; blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed.”

D
DEADn


hey john you said:As far as me doubting the Bible and God's Word. I think I believe it to an extent but as I have said in some previous postings I don't see the Power of God enough around me to cause me to reach out in more faith because sometimes nothing seems to happen. SO I tend to find myself on that balance beam at times just hanging on.--

as i read this i thought about Thomas, if you remember he was the one who doubted the others and said he would not believe. Sometimes your posts remind me a lot of Thomas. I realize you said you do struggle with faith because nothing is happening around you? after reading that i thought i would share this verse with you. remember what Jesus said to Thomas? maybe its time to stop doubting and believe. remember God does not have to prove Himself to any of us
rdg

John 20:24-29
But he said to them, "Unless I see the nail marks in his hands and put my finger where the nails were, and put my hand into his side, I will not believe.”

26 A week later his disciples were in the house again, and Thomas was with them. Though the doors were locked, Jesus came and stood among them and said, "Peace be with you!” 27 Then he said to Thomas, "Put your finger here; see my hands. Reach out your hand and put it into my side. Stop doubting and believe.”

28 Thomas said to him, "My Lord and my God!”

Thank you for this post!

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rainydaygirl

hey john i am glad the verse helped. i have struggled at times too in the past. will pray for you.

take care
rdg

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Sree

I am part of a church in which we have food served after every meeting. I have never seen myself or anyone including little babies who eat with us getting sick due to the food. In smaller churches like in US each family will take turns to cook food. But here in India we brothers come early in the morning to cook for 200 people and then the meeting starts on time.

To me it is more than the prayer, god looks into the intention of the food. For us the intention is to have a time of fellowship while eating together, serve better food to the poor brothers among us. We do not collect money forcefully by passing offering bucket for the purpose of serving food. Food is served at the expense of church or individual brothers who do it with intention to serve god. Hence I believe god has blessed our fellowship lunch all the time.

I have observed that I get stressed when I continuously work with less sleep, will get stress related headache. But I never got one when I worked for church conference. We used to work 3 to 4 days with very less sleep to organise a conference. But I never even once got any problem. I attribute this to God who strengthens me to be energetic to do his work.

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DEADn

Remember that I posted 2 different incidents in the post. One dealing with food and prayer before food while the other one dealt with church buses and vans that get into accidents.

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StarofG0D

"But here in India we brothers come early in the morning to cook for 200 people and then the meeting starts on time. "

This is a very wonderful idea!

Americans should incorporate this into their church services ..lovely..

S
sermonindex

by DEADn on 2014/2/22 15:40:08


I know this is off topic, but as I was reading the title to the thread, I said to myself, "this was started by Deadn". Sure, enough it was. You know I've been here too long when I can tell who authored a post. :-)

What made you think that I started this posting? Is there a character to my titles?

John

Good question. Maybe just the Holy Spirit "tipped me off". But, I thought of you when I read the title.

H
havok20x

The bible does say sickness can happen among a body of believers because of disobedience or something like that--such as the Corinthian people were dying and getting sick because of the way in which they took the Lord's supper (1 Corinthians 11). Now it is clear in that context that the weakness, sickness, and death happening in that Church was discipline from the Lord. 11:32 says, "But when we are judged, we are chastened by the Lord, that we may not be condemned with the world".

But not only that, many bad things can happen to us just because of the fallen nature of the world or flesh, and it is definitely within the context of the will of God. Believing that people get sick after church dinners and because church vans get into tragic accidents because they are not true believers is EXACTLY the same thinking the pharisees had whenever bad stuff happened to people. It is exactly the same thinking that Job's "friends" had concerning his suffering. And we know that God did not agree in either situation.

We are promised eternal life, brothers and sisters, not freedom from suffering or bad things happening to us. I tell you, many Christians have died strange deaths. They do not all die peacefully or as glorious martyrs. Trophimus, Paul's companion, was left sick in Miletus. Was he an unbeliever or a bad Christian? It does not say so, and it is not safe to assume so. Unless the Holy Spirit specifically says, "Those people are sick because of their disobedience" or "Those people died in a wreck because they were only pretending to be Christians" it is NOT safe nor good practice to assume THAT is the reason, lest you malign the righteous along with the unrighteous.


*****

Edited

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DEADn

On the heels of the first response to this post what the same answer be the answer to this situation. Probably not true believer's or just a freak accident? Does this happen to be with a bad luck thing or do we assume there is a silent cause going on there that way may never know about such as God doing something that isn't going to be broadcast except for the disaster event that just looks bad?

Most people see this and ask how can this happen? Naturally it seems something was physically wrong with the floor. Does this have a supernatural cause and if not how would you interpret it if you were in their shoes.
How do you answer someone who wonders why situations like this happen? Is there an answer?

http://www.charismanews.com/us/42862-mississippi-church-floor-collapses-mid-service-sending-70-students-falling

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Heydave

DEADn,

You are asking the wrong question!

We live in a world completely affected by sin and corrupted from its original order and function. Every area of life including our bodies are subject to this bondage. This world is at enmity with God. Christians are not immune from this as we have to live in this fallen world and still have corrupt bodies subject to death.

The question should be, why is God so merciful in blessing us with so much grace and goodness, often protecting us from our own foolishness, while all the time the world He made shakes its fist in His face?

havok20x gave a very concise and correct answer to your questions.

Regarding the recent event, generally buildings collapse because they are not built correctly or used correctly. Anyway nobody was seriously hurt here, so again God's mercy in the midst of a fallen world.

Have you never had an accident or hurt yourself? When you did, did you question why God let that happen or surely you just know it was the result of something you or someone else did that was the cause.

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TMK

John, do you think it somehow gives God a "black eye" when things like church floor collapses occur?

The floor collapsed because something was wrong with it. Churches- even the best ones- are not immune to decay or poor building practices. I imagine that even Spurgeon's church had some maintenance done on it every now and again.

What the world is waiting to see is whether the parents of these injured young people (assuming they were minors) sue the church for damages.

THAT would be the travesty-- not the floor collapsing.

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roadsign

I don't see the Power of God enough around me to cause me to reach out in more faith ….

I appreciate your honest reflection in this matter. There is a word for those of us who suffer from this spiritual malady: "We live by faith and not by sight."

I look forward to thread headings from you that reflect a shift in focus.

Diane

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roadsign

Spurgeon's church had some maintenance done on it every now and again.

And to think .... it even burnt down!

Diane

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TMK

Wow Diane I had forgotten all about that but you are right!

If I remember correctly there was also some sort of a panic in his church that resulted in some people being trampled to death.

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ginnyrose

John, I suspect you are looking for a heaven on earth where no one gets hurt or sick and it ain't about to happen. Scripture is clear that Believers will not be spared from the consequences of carelessness...sometimes, yes, but it won't be the norm. Hey! How about Paul being shipwrecked? Where was God in that?

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sermonindex

Everything depends on our present spiritual or earthly reality. Depends on where our heart is and what our mind is dwelling on.

Some have "tragic" things happen to them (Joni Eareckson) only to capitalize on them, using them as wings to explore the heights.

Others, lose faith and are shipwrecked.

His Spirit sustaining us daily and even more, giving us joy unspeakable in the midst of what people call tragedy seems to me to be the greatest miracle. "Christ in me", blows me away more than any miracle I have ever read about, heard about or personally witnessed.

Remember, God's view of pain and tragedy is much different than ours.

Rom_11:33 O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! how unsearchable are his judgments, and his ways past finding out!

You don't have to see the power of God around, you just need to "see" it within you. May He give us all, "eyes that see".

S
Sidewalk

Many years ago in another life I lived in Minnesota, two events happened very close to the same time. The first was when a (non-charismatic) missionary woman who was home on furlough from her mission work was out shopping with her daughter. She and the daughter were captured by a man, who also killed a young boy in the action. Held captive and lost for weeks, the woman and her daughter were repeatedly raped and tortured until they were finally rescued.

The man was convicted, but the story was of national significance when this kindly woman publicly forgave the man- who had earlier in life been one of her students! God had a wonderful testimony out of this horrific event, the way He works in a rich display of forgiveness conquering the ravages of sin.

The other story never made the news. The daughter of a family friend was accosted by a potential rapist/killer on a college campus as she walked from an evening class toward her car, in the dark.

As this guy raised a knife to stab her she commanded he drop it in the name of Jesus. It was as if an unseen angel just reached out and immobilized the man's hand- and he dropped the knife. Suddenly freaked out, he just turned and ran away. The girl, somewhat shaken but completely unharmed continued to her car and went home, telling her mother of the incident.

It struck me that God had worked in both events according to His word. It was just that the second woman carried with her a knowledge of what she could do in the Spirit, and she was thus protected. The first woman who endured a torturous hell for several weeks cried out to God and was delivered- but apparently never took advantage of Spiritual weapons.

Her story was amazing, the forgiveness was real, but it does show how God can work with plans A, B, C, D... Working all things for good for those who love Him.

Reference the story of Eunice Kronholm, 1976.

T
TMK

quote:
"The first woman who endured a torturous hell for several weeks cried out to God and was delivered- but apparently never took advantage of Spiritual weapons."

That statement stands on perilously shaky ground. I do believe we have a certain level of spiritual authority and should exercise it; however the statement is a gross oversimplification of the issue.

I am certain there are countless times when similar language is used by someone in faith(e.g "in the name of Jesus drop that knife") where it didn't make a hill of beans difference. In other words, for every anecdotal story like that of the young girl, there are likely many other stories where it didn't work. And we don't hear about them because it didn't work.

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roadsign

And we don't hear about them because it didn't work.

You know, each time I visit SI, I am amazed at how deeply God’s people here are media-driven. We let the media inform us about what’s happening. Then, in response, our minds go into high gear with no end of reactions and discussions ”“ all based on extremely incomplete and biased morsels of information provided by those who are paid to write whatever sells ”“ not what edifies, or even what’s truthful.
The media is largely fear-driven, not faith-driven. And "whatever is not of faith is SIN!”

Why do we allow ourselves to be so deeply yoked with this fear-driven cultural phenomenon?? It paralyzes us and damages what is most precious to us: our FAITH.


I suggest the book, "Son of Hamas”. Here we can see how the media has coloured key characters and key events in the Middle East conflicts. But, as you read through the eyes of the writer, you see how God has been in it all ”“ even the darkest pits of hell.

And that can be true of poisoned church suppers.

BUT THE MEDIA WILL NEVER TELL YOU THAT!


Diane

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rainydaygirl

You know, each time I visit SI, I am amazed at how deeply God’s people here are media-driven. We let the media inform us about what’s happening. Then, in response, our minds go into high gear with no end of reactions and discussions ”“ all based on extremely incomplete and biased morsels of information provided by those who are paid to write whatever sells ”“ not what edifies, or even what’s truthful.
The media is largely fear-driven, not faith-driven. And "whatever is not of faith is SIN!”---

this is so true.as i read what you posted i thought how often i do the very same thing after reading a news story.and your right all the news wants to do is drive fear, spread gossip,and take peoples eyes off of Jesus. this really is given me a lot to think about this morning.

rdg

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Sidewalk

quote:
"The first woman who endured a torturous hell for several weeks cried out to God and was delivered- but apparently never took advantage of Spiritual weapons."

That statement stands on perilously shaky ground. I do believe we have a certain level of spiritual authority and should exercise it; however the statement is a gross oversimplification of the issue.

I am certain there are countless times when similar language is used by someone in faith(e.g "in the name of Jesus drop that knife") where it didn't make a hill of beans difference. In other words, for every anecdotal story like that of the young girl, there are likely many other stories where it didn't work. And we don't hear about them because it didn't work.


I apologize if the words I used in telling these stories was offensive. Though Eunice Kronholm's story is from the mid seventies, it was well documented and I had no trouble finding information on it with google. As a young Christian living in the area at the time, it made a deep impression on me that has influenced the way I think about the relationship between extreme sin and overwhelming forgiveness.

As to the girl who was being attacked with the knife- I had only the anecdotal report from her mother. But it was real enough to me to build faith in the promises of God that work in real time on behalf of His servants. Without it, fear would have to be a prominent part of our world view and daily mental exercise. And that is contrary to the promise of God.

D
DEADn


You know, each time I visit SI, I am amazed at how deeply God’s people here are media-driven. We let the media inform us about what’s happening. Then, in response, our minds go into high gear with no end of reactions and discussions ”“ all based on extremely incomplete and biased morsels of information provided by those who are paid to write whatever sells ”“ not what edifies, or even what’s truthful.
The media is largely fear-driven, not faith-driven. And "whatever is not of faith is SIN!”---

this is so true.as i read what you posted i thought how often i do the very same thing after reading a news story.and your right all the news wants to do is drive fear, spread gossip,and take peoples eyes off of Jesus. this really is given me a lot to think about this morning.

rdg

What is your proposal to combat what you observe? I am an avid news reader because I want to know what is going on in the world around me and this includes things in Christianity. The article and my personal story is just 2 such items of reality and if one Christian cannot help another Christian then what good is that salt but to be thrown out?

John

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roadsign

I am an avid news reader because I want to know what is going on in the world around me and this includes things in Christianity.

Surely this is a common hunger in our society. But it’s not necessarily a healthy craving. It may be a means to escape from deeper realities or responsibilities. It may be an idolatrous desire, a way of feeling more in control, more powerful, more superior. It can be a means of avoiding honest self-reflection and the discomfort of our insecurities and hidden shame. It can distract us from getting to know "our neighbour” ”“ those loved ones in our lives whom we’d rather stay distanced from. It can keep us distanced from God.

An insatiable passion for sensational information can be a way of avoiding deeper thinking. It can keep us functioning as an armchair moral policeman ”“ always feeling a need to categorize people into black or white compartments, without ever having to look at ourselves. Over time, our mind could end up looking more like a repository for National Inquirer” than a transformation by the Holy Spirit.

Our private thought-world will ultimately affect our relationship with others.

If we love ourselves and our neighbours ”“ including those who read our posts, we will consider the effect of our posts. Are we tempting others to form hasty judgments ”“ or to think more deeply? Are we drawing their attention to or away from their own calling and responsibilities or towards it?

It boils down to this: "Love your neighbour as yourself."

Would you agree?

Diane

R
rainydaygirl

What is your proposal to combat what you observe? I am an avid news reader because I want to know what is going on in the world around me and this includes things in Christianity. The article and my personal story is just 2 such items of reality and if one Christian cannot help another Christian then what good is that salt but to be thrown out?

John

Trust and faith in Jesus. that is how i deal with the things happening around me. if you don't place your trust and faith in Him even though things happen that you don't understand then it would seem like you would be forever being tossed about. for me john it comes down to believing the things God says because of who He is and He said them.

edit(another thought) i was thinking about what you said about being an avid news reader. i wonder has being an avid news reader helped you grow in your walk with Jesus? has it brought you closer to Him? i think its a great question for me to be considering myself as well.
rdg

D
DEADn


i wonder has being an avid news reader helped you grow in your walk with Jesus? has it brought you closer to Him?

At times it has and at times it has not. One thing it does do is I tend to have snapshots of bible passages come to mind when reading a news article and then I ask if it applies today and how so. Then I may meditate on that for a little while and ask how I can apply it in my life.

Even when I write/type things out I often sense God stopping me from going further with a subject or a post and saying it is not the right time for that. Or for me to have patience and to wait and see...... I often and thankful for heeding that leading because my foot would be well placed deep in my mouth, ha. That is something that surprises me alot lately because I find that it happens alot when I am writing something out. I am thankful for it because it is producing a patience within me but also growing in wisdom in the process. It is helping me to push through the emotional side of my being and living in the faith side. That which triumphs over the emotions and stays with what is true regardless of the environment - if that makes sense?

John

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MrBillPro

Thought I might throw my 2 cents in. One thing I would never judge or even have a negative opinion on, is something as simple as someone watching the news. I personally don't make it a point to catch the news, but I have had the channel on watching something else when the news comes on. Depending on if I am up or down in mind, body or spirit at that time, usually determines if it stays on. I have been personally working on myself for a while,"still under construction" to keep all my unnecessary vocal opinions to myself, and I can tell your this, it's made a real difference in my life, I just seem to be a much happier person. It is amazing when we can realize we might have an issue with something, and address it and reap the rewards, God is good!

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DEADn

For me news media helps me stay informed of things going on around me and around the world. It educates me first of all. Second of it its gives me a knowledge base for when I have circumstances in which a piece of knowledge I have learned can be used to inform someone else, especially for the positive. News doesn't necessarily come from media outlets as far as the mainstream.

It is just as if you are staying about some cult group. You study to understand what it is they believe and why they believe it. Armed with that knowledge and then one day you cross paths with someone in that cult. I simply begin asking questions about them and their belief and ask questions based about what I understood and if it lines up correctly then I got bring in the Gospel.

I do this with a guy at work who attends Church of Christ. I go back and forth with him about the bible but also some political issues. He is very negative and that is a result of his job. He chooses to be negative anyway. I injected questions to him to get him to think about things and turn his negative attitude to a positive in order to challenge his mindset. He has a certain mindset on everything and so with the news I read and some of the research I do it allows me to answer his questions and turn his comments around to show him a different angle on it rather than just letting him ramble on about stuff. That is what the majority of people do with him anyway.

S
sermonindex

DEADn,

If you want to add to your knowledge about what is going on around you, start here:

http://theunjustmedia.com/Banking%20&%20Federal%20Reserve/The%20united%20states%20Of%20America%20%20is%20a%20corporation%20owned%20by%20fore.htm

then continue...

http://theunjustmedia.com/Corporation/Corporation%20Home%20Page.htm

D
DEADn

I browsed through it but something doesn't add up in it. This is where critical thinking takes place. Not reading something and just running with it. The link at the bottom seems like something totally different running off of some other tangent. How close is this stuff to the Alex Jones?

Getting a bit off topic from the OP.

S
sermonindex

Don't know if it is related, because I don't listen to much of Alex Jones. In fact the only time I stumble on his site is when I click on a link from another news site.

Let's try this one:
http://realitybloger.wordpress.com/2010/02/26/killing-your-strawman-the-path-to-freedom/

Very informative blog. If you don't appreciate what is said on this page, then just move on, but before you do, give some of the articles on the right a few minutes of your time.

These are just a few of his very good articles:

It’s Time To Withdraw Your Membership To The United States!
Cracking The Cult Of The Constitution (Part I)
Cracking The Cult Of The Constitution (Part II)
Dude, That Isn't Wax On Your Apple!
Original 13th Amendment Shown In Triplicate
CAFR Investment Scheme In The United Kingdom
Unmasking The CAFR Scam In Every City, USA

S
sermonindex

You will like this, DEADn.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aZgcxdAFV6c

R
roadsign


"Letters to Jessica" is another way of describing this "drama" in which we participate.


http://letterstojessica.embassyofheaven.com/

D
DEADn

Bus accidents of churches.


Why do you suppose these things are allowed to happen? Maybe I am too heavenly minded with this scenario but one of the things that comes to my mind is that when such a thing happens there should be some kind of miracle testimony involved in the aftermath. i.e. tires blows, van flips and is seemingly crushed but no deaths involved. Just injuries.

How can a Christian glorify God in these accidents if people die through them and there seems to be no such testimony of anything good through it except the survivors? And yet survivors happen in accidents involving non Christians anyway so whether someone survives or not is almost irrelevant. I would think that Christians would have some kind of testimony because after all, are we not to be set apart as a Light to the nations?

Am I thinking this out too much? Am I being unfair in my criticism? How does a person praise God in these situations. Yeah, I may be a doubting Thomas in these situations but you know, when you break a steel pipe and weld it back together that part of the pipe becomes stronger than the rest of the pipe. Hence my own faith, maybe parts of it needs to be broken and put back together.
It is not like these incidents happen twice a year. They happen more than that hence my question and wonder on this scenario.

John

S
sermonindex

Deadn if you want to test how "heavenly minded" you might be you should read this. I am seeing, to my embarrassment and distress that I am far from heavenly minded. But, by God's grace I am going to change that.

http://letterstojessica.embassyofheaven.com/

roadsign, thank you so much for posting that link.

Here is letter #1, but start at the beginning.

Letter One
Wizard of Oz

Dear Jessica;

It was very nice to stay with you over the holidays. I especially enjoyed tickle-time, playing monkeys always look and all those computer games with you, Halley and Rachael! I am very pleased to have such fine nieces.

I am writing this letter to you, Jessica, because you are the oldest and you are in the first grade already. But I'm writing to your sisters as well. When they are older, I hope you'll share this letter with them.

I want to tell you some important things I have learned. Things that someone should have told me when I was your age. Grownups are playing a very bad game of make-believe. I played, too, for many years. Grownups tricked me when I was in the first grade like you. They made me think their game was real life. But now I know it's all pretend. I have stopped playing. I hope that if I tell you about the game, you may never be tricked into playing like I was. Here is one thing I didn't know when I was in first grade like you. Grownups like to play make-believe just as much as children. Only they do not admit they are playing a game.

Do you remember The Wizard of Oz? Dorothy and her little dog Toto are carried by a tornado to the Land of Oz. There they meet the Scarecrow, the Tin Woodsman, and the Cowardly Lion.

They heard about the Wizard of Oz and went to see him. The story tells what they learn about the Wizard. It is a fairy tale for children. It is a very good story. But the man who wrote it, L. Frank Baum, wanted to tell something about grownups, too. All fairy tales are like that. They tell us something about real people living in the real world.

You remember, Dorothy melted the Wicked Witch with a bucket of water. Then she and her friends returned to the Emerald City to claim the promises given them by the Wizard. After waiting many days they were let into the throne room.

But the Wizard was not there. It was so quiet and still that they were somewhat frightened. Then, as the story goes:

Presently they heard a solemn Voice, that seemed to come from somewhere near the top of the great dome.

"I am Oz, the Great and Terrible. Why do you seek me?"

They looked again in every part of the room, and then, seeing no one, Dorothy asked, "Where are you?"

"I am everywhere," answered the Voice, "but to the eyes of common mortals I am invisible. I will now seat myself upon my throne that you may converse with me."

(Dorothy and her friends asked Oz for what he had promised them as a reward for destroying the Wicked Witch. Oz wanted them to wait so he could think it over. But, as the story continues)

The Lion thought it might be as well to frighten the Wizard, so he gave a large, loud roar, which was so fierce and dreadful that Toto jumped away from him in alarm and tipped over the screen that stood in a corner. As it fell with a crash they looked that way, and the next moment all of them were filled with wonder. For they saw, standing in just the spot the screen had hidden, a little old man, with a bald head and a wrinkled face, who seemed to be as much surprised as they were. The Tin Woodsman, raising his ax, rushed toward the little man and cried out, "Who are you?"

I am Oz, the Great and Terrible," said the little man, in a trembling voice. "But don't strike me - please don't - and I'll do anything you want me to."

Our friends looked at him in surprise and dismay.

"I thought Oz was a great Head," said Dorothy.

"And I thought Oz was a lovely Lady," said the Scarecrow.

"And I thought Oz was a terrible Beast," said the Tin Woodsman.

"And I thought Oz was a Ball of Fire," exclaimed the Lion.

"No, you are all wrong," said the little man meekly. "I have been making believe."

"Making believe!" cried Dorothy. "Are you not a Great Wizard?"

"Hush, my dear," he said. "Don't speak so loud, or you will be overheard - and I should be ruined. I'm supposed to be a Great Wizard."

"And aren't you?" she asked.

"Not a bit of it, my dear. I'm just a common man."

"You're more than that," said the Scarecrow, in a grieved tone. "You're a humbug."

"Exactly so!" declared the little man, rubbing his hands together as if it pleased him. "I am a humbug."

(The Wizard of Oz was a humbug. A humbug is someone who tricks others by pretending to be something he isn't. He tricked all the people of Oz into believing he was something terrible. In that way he ruled over them. The story goes on as Oz says)

"Just to amuse myself, and keep the good people busy, I ordered them to build this City, and my Palace; and they did it all willingly and well. Then I thought, as the country was so green and beautiful, I would call it the Emerald City. And to make the name fit better I put green spectacles on all the people, so that everything they saw was green."

"But isn't everything here green?" asked Dorothy.

"No more than in any other city," replied Oz. "But when you wear green spectacles, why of course everything you see looks green to you. The Emerald City was built a great many years ago, for I was a young man when the balloon brought me here, and I am a very old man now. But my people have worn green glasses on their eyes so long that most of them think it really is an Emerald City, and it certainly is a beautiful place, abounding in jewels and precious metals, and every good thing that is needed to make one happy."

Now, Jessica, the man who wrote The Wizard of Oz wanted to tell children who read his book about the game of make-believe that grownups are playing. It seems so real, most grownups don't even know it is a game of pretend. If you try to tell them about it, they won't even listen. They have been playing too long and too hard to quit. But first graders have not really started to play yet, so they can see it's all pretend.

When I was in first grade, my teacher taught me the game but didn't tell me it was only make-believe. I was over thirty-five years old before I found out about the terrible game all grownups are playing. I want to tell you about it so they can't trick you.

Children like you are sent to school to learn to read and write and do arithmetic. Even so, many children never learn to read and write. Your Uncle Craig was one of them. He had to teach himself how to read and write when he was out of school. While children may not learn the basics, grownups make certain children are taught to play the game when they grow up. Grownups like the game so much they want all their children to play, too.

Here is how the game goes. We are living in a very fine country just like the land of Oz. The land we live in is green and beautiful. It abounds in jewels and precious metals, and every good thing that is needed to make one happy, just like the Emerald City. The name of our country is America. The part of our country where you live is called Alaska. The part where I am living is called Idaho. Just like Oz, there are many good people living here.

The people of Oz were tricked into believing that there was a wizard that ruled over them. The people of America have been tricked into believing the same thing. In America there are fifty Great Wizards! One of them is called the State of Alaska. Another is the State of Idaho. A state is a kind of wizard.

Over all these Great Wizards is one Supreme Wizard called the United States, which is imagined to rule over all of America. Just like the Wizard of Oz, the Wizards of America appear differently. Sometimes the Wizards appear to be great Heads when they tell the people of America what to do. At other times these wizards seem to be lovely ladies because they do helpful things for the people they rule. Sometimes they appear to be terrible beasts and balls of fire when they do mean things and hurt people. Before they can do a nice thing, they must first do a mean thing to someone. The Wizard of Oz never hurt his people like the Wizards of America. The Wizards of America sometimes turn into wicked witches. That is why the game is bad.

Since these wizards are only make-believe, they are always invisible and can live forever. Some people believe so hard in the State of Alaska, they think it is real, just like mountains and rivers. They will tell you it is wrong to think the State is a pretend Wizard. Ask them to show you the State. They cannot, because the State is invisible. It is only in their imagination, just like Santa Claus and the Tooth Fairy.

Children like to play make-believe. It is lots of fun. When children grow up, they still like to play make-believe. But they forget their games are only pretend. Then it isn't fun anymore. They play so hard they hurt one another. Grownups need someone to tell them to stop playing before more people get hurt. Even a child could tell them.

In my next letter, I'll tell you how Wizards of America is played. Say hello to your Mom and Dad and your sisters. Bye for now!

D
DEADn

JUST-IN

These type of stories are mere conspiracy theories to me. Stories made to build up a certain fear but in the end they don't pan out. They play on the fear of people.

How does this story refer to being heavenly minded or not so heavenly minded?

The story reminds me someone of what you might hear from Alex Jones or Coast to Coast AM. A good storyline but have these theories ever panned out? Not really, they are a never ending storyline but it keeps the fear alive.

S
sermonindex

Hi Dead-in,

While your answer is interesting, it is not wholly unexpected and certainly not original.

I have been thinking about this verse a lot lately and how we could be a year or two from a currency change (mark of the beast) and that most church goers will gladly receive it. I may be off by a year or two, but it is coming.

2Th_2:11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:

Do you think the mark of the beast is a conspiracy theory?

Do you think that Christians who believe the whole world lieth in wickedness is a conspiracy theory?

No need to answer, these are rhetorical questions.

D
DEADn


Hi Dead-in,

While your answer is interesting, it is not wholly unexpected and certainly not original.

I have been thinking about this verse a lot lately and how we could be a year or two from a currency change (mark of the beast) and that most church goers will gladly receive it. I may be off by a year or two, but it is coming.

2Th_2:11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:

Do you think the mark of the beast is a conspiracy theory?

Do you think that Christians who believe the whole world lieth in wickedness is a conspiracy theory?

No need to answer, these are rhetorical questions.

I want to answer because Conspiracy theories set people up to fear things that are not always true but may appear to be and can keep people in bondage as a result. It is a reason why I think certain things in end times news become a bunch of nonsense and amount to just blowing a horn too many times.

I think using various tools we see in the world and calling it the mark of the beast is the Conspiracy theory. Until we see government saying you cannot buy or sell without it I find it to be nonsensical, sensational conspiracy theory. It keeps up the 'fear' trend going imo.

Christians who believe the whole world lies in wickedness is not conspiracy theory but if Christians believe every person who is 'wicked' is out to get them or somehow destroy the world or them is foolishness. Only radicals fall under that camp.

S
sermonindex

Who said "every wicked person is out to get them"?

You do believe that people conspire to do evil things, don't you?

The biggest conspiracy we all know of was the conspiracy to kill Jesus Christ.

Obamacare was a conspiracy to control everyone in the U.S. And people rightly feared it. How do we know it was a conspiracy, because we now know all the ways they lied to us. They conspired to pass a law, by lying to us and telling us the opposite of what would really happen.

Please. I know what conspiracies are and I know what to fear and who to fear.

I fear God and don't trust man.

There are conspiracies every day and many of them are taking place with IRS (Tea Party), NSA, Homeland Security, FDA, EPA, etc., etc.

Please tell me I am wrong and that we should trust and believe that these agencies are really doing good for us and not planning our harm.

D
DEADn

I ran across this letter from one of the blogs I follow. The blog itself comes from someone is ascribes to 'progressive Christianity'. This letter reveals the stick in the spoke that we are dealing with in homosexuality that it isn't always as simple as saying someone is not born that way.

What are your thoughts on this?
The buzzwords in this is Christian love and acceptance while moving away from sin because the person this letter is addressed to says homosexuality is not sin. This is the attitude that those who struggle with homosexuality is receiving from the church.

How do Christians respond?

John
----------------------------------------------
Dear X,

A while back you and I exchanged emails about my experience of my son coming out at 16 and being expelled from his Christian school, me leaving my teaching position at the same school, and my family being "ex-communicated” from the church.

One and a half years ago I was living in fear and devastated at all that I had lost. I was trying to reconcile what I had learned in the fundamentalist church* about homosexuality, and what my son was struggling with. You posted my letter [He hated himself because he couldn't change himself] because it showed the horrible "process” he went through that seems most gay kids go through. He was cutting, depressed, suicidal … you get the picture. I just wanted to update you on our progress.

First of all, I want to thank you so much for your website. Yours was the first I found that helped me understand that there were intelligent arguments against what the church had been telling us about homosexuality. One quote I read on your site was, "Be careful what you say about a gay person because it could be about somebody you love.” [Tweet that.] That hit me so hard. It made me re-examine how I looked at homosexuality. It most definitely is not a choice!

Because of your web site, I met Linda Robertson, and because of Linda Robertson, I’ve met over 100 moms of gay kids, most of who grew up in fundamentalist churches. What a beautiful support we have all been to each other while we navigate learning to truly love our kids and one another as God loves us.

This experience has made me a stronger woman and mom. My son got his GED and is now in college. He is living in a city where being gay is no big deal. I’m still contending with running into church and school members in the grocery store and post office, but I don’t quiver in fear any longer. I realize that they are wrong, and that how they are treating people is wrong. I’ve learned that the most important thing we can do as Christians is to love and not pass judgment. I look at these people and feel sorry for how closed-minded they are.

Ninety-eight percent of the kids from my son’s old high school go to Bob Jones University, so, unfortunately, the cycle of hate continues.

I pray that God finds a way to use me in this fight. I have become a warrior through these trials and you have armed me with great Biblical information.

X, thank you from the bottom of my heart for all you are doing to promote Christian love and acceptance. I wouldn’t be in the safe place I am today without your informed information and clear and concise arguments. Thank you, thank you, thank you, and don’t stop!

Gratefully yours,

[X]

D
DEADn


Who said "every wicked person is out to get them"?

You do believe that people conspire to do evil things, don't you?

The biggest conspiracy we all know of was the conspiracy to kill Jesus Christ.

Obamacare was a conspiracy to control everyone in the U.S. And people rightly feared it. How do we know it was a conspiracy, because we now know all the ways they lied to us. They conspired to pass a law, by lying to us and telling us the opposite of what would really happen.

Please. I know what conspiracies are and I know what to fear and who to fear.

I fear God and don't trust man.

There are conspiracies every day and many of them are taking place with IRS (Tea Party), NSA, Homeland Security, FDA, EPA, etc., etc.

Please tell me I am wrong and that we should trust and believe that these agencies are really doing good for us and not planning our harm.

I would agree with you on these points. Even down to the IRS part of it.

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