Prosperity Preachers

WOLVES IN SHEEP CLOTHINGFor such men are false apostles, deceitful workers, disguising themselves as apostles of Christ . . . (2 Corinthians 11:13).For false Christs and false prophets will arise and will show great signs and wonders, so as to mislead, if possible, even the elect (Matthew 24:24).David Ravenhill said "I’m convinced that the carnal, cunning, conniving, crooked crooks that Jesus drove out of the Temple are still among us today. These modern day moneychangers are forever devising new and deceptive doctrines to defraud God’s people out of His/their money. These masters of deceit have now set up their changing tables throughout the Christian television industry." "Modern Day Money Changers" found at: https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/articles/index.php?view=article&aid=13686 Today there are many prosperity preachers. While I normally do not comment on other peoples "ministries" I thought these articles were rather note worthy. I know very well that posting this could cause a bit of an uproar. Joyce Meyers: http://www.myfortress.org/JoyceMeyer.html Kenneth Copeland: http://www.myfortress.org/KennethCopeland.html Jesse Duplantis: http://www.myfortress.org/JesseDuplantis.html Creflo Dollar: http://www.myfortress.org/CrefloDollar.html Here is just one section of the Joyce Meyers article about her money habits. I wonder what she would have thought of the Apostle Peter who said in the book of Acts "Silver and Gold have I none." Or Jesus who said "The Son of Man has no where to lay his head." : "Joyce Meyer says God has made her rich. Everything she has came from Him: the $10 million corporate jet, her husband's $107,000 silver-gray Mercedes sedan, her $2 million home and houses worth another $2 million for her four children — all blessings, she says, straight from the hand of God..."If you stay in your faith, you are going to get paid," Meyer told an audience in Detroit in September. "I'm living now in my reward." Meyer is fond of nice things and is willing to spend for them. From an $11,000 French clock in the ministry's Fenton headquarters to a $105,000 Crownline boat docked behind her vacation home at Lake of the Ozarks, it's clear her tastes run more to Perrier than to tap water. The building is decorated with religious paintings and sculptures, and quality furniture. Much of it, Meyer says, she selected herself. A Jefferson County assessor's list offers a glimpse into the value of many of the items: a $19,000 pair of Dresden vases, six French crystal vases bought for $18,500, an $8,000 Dresden porcelain depicting the Nativity, two $5,800 curio cabinets, a $5,700 porcelain of the Crucifixion, a pair of German porcelain vases bought for $5,200. The decor includes a $30,000 malachite round table, a $23,000 marble-topped antique commode, a $14,000 custom office bookcase, a $7,000 Stations of the Cross in Dresden porcelain, a $6,300 eagle sculpture on a pedestal, another eagle made of silver bought for $5,000, and numerous paintings purchased for $1,000 to $4,000 each. Inside Meyer's private office suite sit a conference table and 18 chairs bought for $49,000. The woodwork in the offices of Meyer and her husband cost the ministry $44,000. Meyer drives the ministry's 2002 Lexus SC sports car with a retractable top, valued at $53,000. Her son Dan, 25, drives the ministry's 2001 Lexus sedan, with a value of $46,000. Meyer's husband drives his Mercedes-Benz S55 AMG sedan. "My husband just likes cars," Meyer said. The Meyers keep the ministry's Canadair CL-600 Challenger jet, which Joyce Meyer says is worth $10 million, at Spirit of St. Louis Airport in Chesterfield. The ministry employs two full-time pilots to fly the Meyers to conferences around the world. Security is important to Meyer, who says she has received death threats. She has a division of the ministry dedicated to her safety. Her officers wear pistols; they guard the headquarters' front gate, keeping out anyone but employees and invited guests. The ministry bought a $145,000 house where the security chief lives rent-free to keep him close to the ministry's headquarters. Since 1999, the ministry has spent at least $4 million on five homes for Meyer and her four children near Interstate 270 and Gravois Road, St. Louis County records show. Meyer's house, the largest of the five, is a 10,000-square-foot Cape Cod style estate home with a guest house and a garage that can be independently heated and cooled and can hold up to eight cars. The three-acre property has a large fountain, a gazebo, a private putting green, a pool and a poolhouse where the ministry recently added a $10,000 bathroom." (Article on Joyce Meyers, 11/15/2003, St. Louis Post Dispatch) "It's amazing to me how many people are jealous of the car I drive or the house I live in or the size of my ministry...Don't be jealous of the fact that I fly my own airplane...But you know what I've noticed? I've never had anybody who drives a car like mine be jealous of my car. I've never had any other minister who has an airplane be jealous of my airplane. So you know we're really not mad at what other people have, we're mad because we don't have it!" (Joyce Meyer, "Mind, Mouth, Moods, and Attitudes," tape 2 of 4 the "Mouth") "Oh, shut up! I mean there is not a one of you sitting out there today if you were in full time ministry and you had an opportunity to have your own airplane rather than flying around commercial all of the time that you wouldn't have one too. We are only jealous because we don't have what other people have! And it's a rotten thing on the inside of us that God wants to get out." (Joyce Meyer, "Mind, Mouth, Moods, and Attitudes," tape 2 of 4 the "Mouth") Here is another quote from David Ravenhills article "Modern Day Money Changers: "Stop pandering to these moneychangers. These men and women live like kings while spending your money to buy mansions and jets for themselves. They dine in the finest restaurants, wear the latest designer fashions and then have the audacity to tell you that you can live the same way as long as you give to their ministry. I opened my Bible the other day to Zechariah’s wonderful prophecy concerning the first coming of Jesus, our great and glorious King. Listen to his words; ‘Behold your King is coming to you; He is just and endowed with salvation, humble, and mounted on a donkey, even on a colt the foal of a donkey.’( Zechariah 9:9 ) What a far cry from the televangelist who comes high and mighty and traveling on his own jet! If you are as sick and tired as I am about this waste of God’s money, then for heaven’s sake STOP SUPPORTING THESE PEOPLE. Give your money to your local church. There are tens of thousands of needy missionaries who barely have enough support to keep themselves alive. They are laboring long and hard under some of the most difficult and trying conditions. They would rejoice at the thought of an extra $10-30 dollars a month support. These are the real heroes of whom the world is not worthy. Help put these MONEY LOVING TELEVANGELISTS OUT OF BUSINESS and SAVE ANOTHER MISSIONARY FROM EXTINCTION."Dead while livingR. W. C.

Though I agree with much that is written here- I would hope that on this forum we might discuss how we can become more Christ-like, not how others are becoming LESS Christ-like.I know I have posted on something similar in the past- and I may tend to look at other's faults and everything that is wrong in christendom today (and there is MUCH!) But i am not responsible for them, I am responsible for ME and making sure I am walking the walk. That i am shining the light. That i am not shaming the name of Jesus in any way.Though it is good to have discernment (and we will the more Christ-like we become)Maybe we should concentrate more on where we are lacking and start with ourselves first.(not to mention that we have already discussed this topic many times :)Just a thought :)Surrendered to Him, chanin

Though it is good to have discernment (and we will the more Christ-like we become)Maybe we should concentrate more on where we are lacking and start with ourselves first.Reminds me of something I read somewhere about a mote and a beam....hmmmmmm ;-) In Christ,Ron

Hey deadpreacher,Thanks for the post. Is all that true about Joyce Meyer? Is there any way to verify it?Do you think these verses apply?1Co 5:9 I wrote unto you in an epistle not to company with fornicators: 1Co 5:10 Yet not altogether with the fornicators of this world, or with the covetous, or extortioners, or with idolaters; for then must ye needs go out of the world. 1Co 5:11 But now I have written unto you not to keep company, if any man that is called a brother be a fornicator, or covetous, or an idolater, or a railer, or a drunkard, or an extortioner; with such an one no not to eat. 1Co 5:12 For what have I to do to judge them also that are without? do not ye judge them that are within? 1Co 5:13 But them that are without God judgeth. Therefore put away from among yourselves that wicked person.

Hi R.W.C. a.k.a. deadpreacher,I certainly am in agreement with you on the condition of prosperity preachers. However, I tend to be more concerned with the content of their message than the content of their homes. Now about how they attained their goods certainly is mentioned in the bible--robbing widows and orphans..etc.I did like your last paragraph though. I would hope and I do believe that you are praying for the salvation of these ministers of a false gospel.In Christ,Jeremy Hulsey

sermonindex wrote:

When we start to look at others we get depressed and sad because there is much distortion and confusion, but when we look to Jesus what joy and perfection in His presence.Greg, this is so true! maybe not in all of us because I have overcome that, but my wife has not as of yet, but I keep Praying for her to release this to the Lord.

Having no intimate knowledge of these folk, all I can say is WOW! If that is true, it is amazing, half way through the article my mouth droped open. No wonder some of members are a bit cynical about them. America is to big, and has to much money.

Though it is good to have discernment (and we will the more Christ-like we become)Maybe we should concentrate more on where we are lacking and start with ourselves first.I agree with you Chanin. The thought has accured to me many times in my line of work that it doesn't take a degree in medicine to diagnos a cold or fever sometimes even cancer--nearly anyone can point out the problem--it does however take some effort to fix it. I'm reminded of Neh. when the men of Judah and his brothers came and told him the walls where all destroyed. They all wept over it, but we read that only 1 got up and did something about it--he talked to the king of kings. May we all strive to do something about it by talking about these people. . .to out Great King.

I think looking at some of the "Word of Faith"- "Prosperity Preachers" today can give people the idea that all traveling evangelists are rich. That's not true. Most barely make ends meet and alot of us have to work secular jobs in order to provide for our families. Preaching is a way of life and some of us have chosen to speak God's word anywhere any time the door opens without putting a cost or price on it.I've seen real blind people see again and deaf ears opened, personally I'd trade all the millions that I could have had or have to see those things in the lives of people I'm priviliaged to speak to. But like any buisness these people develope a product, i.e.>>books tapes vidoes. Thats where thier money comes from. Meyers takes no money from the conferences, only from the book sales,and other stuff she sells.She gives her resources to anyone who asks free of charge. I don't agree with her teachings but lets get real for a min. If any of you came up with the next Pet Rock and became wealthy beyond your wildest dreams , no one would question you about how you spent your monies as long as you tithed and gave some to the poor. What I see in the church in the prosperity teachings is a gospel that cannot be duplicated in 3rd world countries and that makes it false. How these people spend thier monies and how much they make doesn't concern me, "THIER MESSAGE DOES".

Hi folks, I'm not a theologian by any stretch of the imagination, but I do believe that God does bless His children although not always w/money. He does bless us with family, friends, time, etc. Now regarding prosperity preachers, I heard a very heart breaking message here on SI recently, The Reproach of the Solemn Assembly by David Wilkerson. Well worth the listen.In Christ AloneDave

In reply to the first post:Well, evrything has been pretty much said, I want to add my way of looking at. What I think: We need to focus on God, and not the prosperity of people. Although, a preacher such as Jesse, preaches, that we must first develop in our mind that we are rich and are prosperous. I dont think he ever said that we must look at others prosperity and judge them. What I think the first post said was a judgment. Dont fall into religion. Religion is pure judgment of others. Altho, this may sound like I'm judging of judging, I'm saying what needs to be said, at least what God says. Read the Bible, and you will be fine w/ you properity.As for false preachers, yeah, they are all around us, and more and more of them are around us, but not all of them work through wealth, so watch out, like it says "Mat 24:24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall show great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect."I remember I was watchin TV along time ago, and I saw this one guy preform all these miracles, yet he said non about God. Such false prophets will be.Mat 7:24 Therefore whosoever, heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rockBe wise, build on the rock-Drey ;-)

R.W.C., I agree with your accessment of prosperity theology, in your opening post in starting this discussion.You are right on target!Moreover, nothing undermines the Body of Christ, nor the creditability of the Christian Church in its mission to evangelize the world than prosperity theology.Jake

I will say this, if your witnessing to anyone at all you yourself are preaching prosperity, just by letting someone know what Christ has done for you, unless your life hasn't prospered at all, remember practice what you preach. :-P

What I had said in my last post above was in no way to deny biblical truths concerning prosperity when understood and applied biblically and not experientially.The basis of biblical understanding of prosperity is found most clearly in Deuteronomy 8:3-5 and 16-20 (that I may be as brief as possible. I am not going to post those all verses, you can read them for yourself in your own Bible. What I am about to share will make for more sense to you if you do).If we were to carefully examine those passages we should see that in God's model there are "three features" that are commonly omitted by those who preach a prosperity message.The "first of these" that God allowed His people to be hungry in the wilderness (See Deuteronomy 8:3-5 and 16-20) that He might humble them and test them. The emphasis today, however, is on not suffering, because they claim Jesus suffered for us.The Bible's teaching is not simply that Jesus died for us, but the He calls us to pick up our cross and die with Him.A gospel that does not preach the Cross in its full sense is not the gospel of Jesus.Times of blessing and prosperity in God's economy, both for individuals and for corporate groups, are preceded by times of breaking, testing and moulding. Because of our old nature, unless we are first broken and remoulded, these blessing become grounds for pride.Yet there is practically no talk of this crucial biblical truth in the manipulative preaching of faith - prosperity ministers.They emphasize, not the blessings of the Cross, but rather a quest for blessings without it.They do this to extract money from people in a manner no different to the way the moneychangers of Jesus' day profiteered from the blood of the lamb and hawked their wares in the Temple."Secondly", the message of Moses (in Deuteronomy 8:3-5 and 16-20) must be seen in context of Deuteronomic legislation and the covenant with the Jews.To appropriate these things from the Jews and apply them to the Church is a manifestation of the errors of Replacementism.Even those prosperity preachers who see a prophetic place for Israel still adhere to replacement Theology.These blessings for Israel were wholly dependant on Israel's faithfulness. So, churches and ministries which do not encourage people to carry their crosses, and live a crucified life, are certianly not being faithful, and therefore the covenant promises could nor apply to them in a biblical sense.What replacementism does is to say that the promised blessings of the covenant are for the Church, but the curses are for the Jews, and that would neither be plausible nor scriptural.What we can say is the principles of blessing and cursing found in the Mosiac law can apply to the Church, but the covenant itself cannot.We are told in Hebrews (see Hebrews 7:22; 8:6; 12:24) that we have a new and better covenant. It is on this basis that some prosperity preachers argue: "Since our covenant is better, should it not also include prosperity?" They go on to agrue: "How can it be better of the Jews were promised prosperity in this world, but we are not?"First of all, I would note that the Law could not give salvation, only the New Covenant of grace could do that.Secondly, Israel had a Theocratic society the Church does not (despite the ramblings of reconstructionists and dominionists).Furthermore note that even the promises of prosperity in the Old Testament were not set out along the lines that the prosperity preachers would have us to believe.This brings us to the "third difference": the blessings and prosperity set out in the Mosaic Law were NEVER for an individual, but for a nation.The blessings would come if the nation was faithful, but they are not guaranteed for individuals (as so much of Ecclesiates, Proverbs, Job and Psalms makes clear).What we can agrue for is an application of the principles; but there is no formula to be found anywhere in the Word of God along the lines that the prosperity preachers deceive people into believing.We can have some sympathy for reconstructionists and restorationists as individuals (although not as leaders) on the basis that their motives may not be wrong, although their doctrines certianly are wrong. But this cannot be generally said for faith - prosperity preachers. While many of them may have began as honest servants of the Lord, it is now difficult to see them as anything less than a ring of swindlers, heretics and confidence trickters out to pervert the Word of God in order to put money into their own pockets. That is how the world sees them, and this is how Christians ought to see them also.Not only do they preach another gospel, but most of them are doing it for their own aggrandizement as is evident from their self indulgent, opulent lifestyles.Jake

OK, can someone please give me one Pastors name that does not teach prosperity to some extent, just one.If your Pastor is not teaching some sort of prosperity, I would be finding another home.prosperity:The condition of being successful or thriving.I am thriving in the Lord myself, and I am a whole lot more successful I see it in my fruits.Deu 29:9 Keep therefore the words of this covenant, and do them, that ye may prosper in all that ye do. Books & CD's and etc. make the so called prosperity preachers rich it's sure not your tithe, unless you personally are giving the Pastor a million or two each year and I doubt that.I just think that some are just jealous of anyone that make more money than they do period and they really need to work on that. :-P

"Joyce Meyer says God has made her rich. Everything she has came from Him: the $10 million corporate jet, her husband's $107,000 silver-gray Mercedes sedan, her $2 million home and houses worth another $2 million for her four children — all blessings, she says, straight from the hand of God..."If you stay in your faith, you are going to get paid," Meyer told an audience in Detroit in September. "I'm living now in my reward." I am studying in the book of Jude at Wednesday Bible study... It is not so sad that she states this, her attitude is prophetic, it is sad she is getting it from so-called believers.preacher_ish

preacher_ish wrote:"Joyce Meyer says God has made her rich. Well at least she is giving credit to the right person. :-)

"Joyce Meyer says God has made her rich." Which God was she talking about? there is a god of this earth, a god of the air. I choose the the God of Heaven and of Earth, my god is the God of the word. who has some things to say about women teaching men. I didn't write it I only read it. It's in there, it's in the word of God. Her reward is here as she has stated.

ravin wrote:who has some things to say about women teaching men. Can you please post that scripture were it says exacally that, because were just as guilty as the prosperity Preachers, if were adding or subtracting anything from the word.

Here is the Word, as it is written:I Timothy 2:11-14 - "Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection. But I suffer not a woman to teach; nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence. ForAdam was first formed, then Eve. And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression."Titus 2:3-5 - "The aged women likewise, that they be in behaviour as becometh holiness, not false accusers, not given to much wine, teachers of good things; that they may teach the young women to be sober, to love their husbands, to love their children, to be discreet, chaste, keepers at home, good, obedient to their own husbands, that the Word of God be not blasphemed."I Peter 3:7 - "Likewise, ye husbands, dwell with them (wives) according to knowledge, giving honour unto the wife, as unto the weaker vessel, and as being heirs together of the grace of life; that your prayers be not hindered."Ephesians 5:22--23 "Wives, submit yourselves unto your own husbands, as unto the LORD. For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church: and he is the saviour of the body."I Timothy 3:1-2 - "This is a true saying, If a MAN desire the office of a bishop, he desireth a good work."A bishop then must be blameless, THE HUSBAND of one wife, vigilant, sober, of good behaviour, given to hospitality, apt to teach." In his word God says husband, not wife of one husband. Truth must not be based on cultural consensus but on the revealed mind of God and his word only.

in response to the 1st posting:i agree with the thought that (at times)we need to focus on what is right in the christian life rather than pointing fingers at the wrong that others are presenting....BUT.....i think that we need to point out the wrong also. if we don't point out the wrong , then careless people will follow these "wolves in sheeps clothing". we, sometimes, must show people the erroneous doctrine that they follow. why? because we love them enough to set them on the correct pathway.dennis

Mr. Bill Pro wrote:Ok, can someone please give me one pastors name that does not teach prosperity to some extent, just one. If your pastor is not teaching some sort of prosperity, I would be finding a new home.My Response:May we be careful that we aren't just looking for someone to just tell us what we want to hear. (smiling)God has promised us as personally as individuals to supply our needs, but He has not promised us material wealth.This that I am now about to share has need to be taken in context with my last post. Firstly, I believe you may have missed the point that I was trying to make in my last post.The principle applys all right, but the formula does not! (smiling)Perhaps it may help if you were to carefully re-read what I unfolded from scripture about that again in my last post, and you may begin to come to see this all the more.What needs to be rejected is the transfer of principles which affect nations to individuals, that is the teaching that has need to be rejected. Because it's not scriptural.Jesus said "the Son of Man had no place to lay His Head" and "a servant is not above his master." The Apostle Paul's life often became so difficult that he despaired of it. Yet these prosperity preachers present a different message to that of the Lord Jesus and the apostle Paul.Moreover, Job was one example of a faithful man who suffered despite his faithfulness, in fact, because of it.The biblical principles of wealth and blessing can only be applied nationally (this I pointed out in scripture in my last post), but not to us as individuals personally.Jake

So would this kind of message bring in the lost sheep better? one that say's you are to be the tail and not the head, God only wants you to get to know him and his word he does not want you to have anything more, He wants you to stay beat down and he does not want you to prosper, He loves you but you can get by with just what you have, Don't depend on God to help you with anything but your salvation, after that any prosperity is not needed or will be accepted by God, please come into our Church we will show you how to be content with just what you have even if your blanket is under a bridge, because if your there that is probably were God wants you,after all, all things happen for the good if you love the Lord so hang in there we will get you a coleman stove and some hamburger meat soon. At this Church we refuse to preach any prosperity it is wrong to expect that period! what kind of God do you think we serve here? If God wants you to have a home he will drop it out of Heaven on 5 acres for you he sure would not want you to prosper at your job to be able to afford one, so ya'll come and we will show you just how the Lord wants you to live without any prosperity this is the Church of contentment, will the person that parked there bicycle in the in the parking lot please move to behind the Church we don't want folks out there to think we might be preaching prosperity here we want to be different and live in contentment, after all this is the "Church Of Contentment" :-P

The quote from Joyce Meyer comes from the deadpreacher's post on false teachers. The quote that "God has made her rich" came from her.preacher_ish

....so the gospel needs to be "spiced up" so it will sell better? that's not the way to bring the lost sheep in. the gospel DOES have verses where God wants the best for us (e.g. health, wealth, etc.) but it also has verses that say 1) we are to take up our cross daily and follow Him. (taking up the cross is a symbol of death. we are to die to our flesh) 2) we are to love Him more than our sister, brother, mother, and father 3) we are to deny ourselves(the first will be last and the last will be first).the way for the lost to be saved is not in enticing them with the health and wealth gospel but in helping them recognize their spiritual wretchedness and helping them to recognize that they're evil and we need God to come in and clean us. besides, health and wealth just doesn't come to EVERY child of God (no matter how obediant we are). dennis :-)

One of the best messages that I have ever heard concerning "prosperity" was given by David Wilkerson. It is entitled "Holy Ground," and it is available here at SermonIndex.net at the following link:https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/mydownloads/visit.php?lid=336Enjoy! :-)

Phisical, material or psycological "prosperity" is not bad. God blesses, and we should give Him glory. The problem arises when we make out of this, the chief end. Most men of God learned to be dependent on God when they didn't have a very big supply of these: just read Hebrew 11, Psalms etc...Just like Paris Reidhead pointed out: the gospel is infected by humanism; a man made gospel, just the way the people like it. It is entertainment. Spurgeon saw it too, a long time ago. FEEDING SHEEP OR AMUSING GOATS? C. H. Spurgeon An evil resides in the professed camp of the Lord so gross in its imprudence that the most shortsighted can hardly fail to notice it. During the past few years it has developed at an abnormal rate evil for evil. It has worked like leaven until the whole lump ferments. The devil has seldom done a cleverer thing than hinting to the Church that part of their mission is to provide entertainment for the people, with a view to winning them. From speaking out as the Puritans did, the Church has gradually toned down her testimony, then winked at and excused the frivolities of the day. Then she tolerated them in her borders. Now she has adopted them under the plea of reaching the masses. My first contention is that providing amusement for the people is nowhere spoken of in the Scriptures as a function of the Church. If it is a Christian work why did not Christ speak of it? "Go ye into all the world and preach the gospel to every creature." That is clear enough. So it would have been if He has added, "and provide amusement for those who do not relish the gospel." No such words, however, are to be found. It did not seem to occur to Him. Then again, "He gave some apostles, some prophets, some pastors and teachers, for the work of the ministry." Where do entertainers come in? The Holy Spirit is silent concerning them. Were the prophets persecuted because they amused the people or because they refused? The concert has no martyr roll. Again, providing amusement is in direct antagonism to the teaching and life of Christ and all His apostles. What was the attitude of the Church to the world? "Ye are the salt," not sugar candy-something the world will spit out, not swallow. Short and sharp was the utterance, "Let the dead bury their dead." He was in awful earnestness! Had Christ introduced more of the bright and pleasant elements into His mission, He would have been more popular when they went back, because of the searching nature of His teaching. I do not hear Him say, "Run after these people, Peter, and tell them we will have a different style of service tomorrow, something short and attractive with little preaching. We will have a pleasant evening for the people. Tell them they will be sure to enjoy it. Be quick, Peter, we must get the people somehow!" Jesus pitied sinners, sighed and wept over them, but never sought to amuse them. In vain will the Epistles be searched to find any trace of the gospel amusement. Their message is, "Come out, keep out, keep clean out!" Anything approaching fooling is conspicuous by its absence. They had boundless confidence in the gospel and employed no other weapon. After Peter and John were locked up for preaching, the Church had a prayer meeting, but they did not pray, "Lord grant Thy servants that by a wise and discriminating use of innocent recreation we may show these people how happy we are." If they ceased not for preaching Christ, they had not time for arranging entertainments. Scattered by persecution, they went everywhere preaching the gospel. They "turned the world upside down." That is the difference! Lord, clear the Church of all the rot and rubbish the devil has imposed on her and bring us back to apostolic methods. Lastly, the mission of amusement fails to affect the end desired. It works havoc among young converts. Let the careless and scoffers, who thank God because the Church met them halfway, speak and testify. Let the heavy-laden who found peace through the concert not keep silent! Let the drunkard to whom the dramatic entertainment has been God's link in the chain of their conversion, stand up! There are none to answer. The mission of amusement produces no converts. The need of the hour for today's ministry is believing scholarship joined with earnest spirituality, the one springing from the other as fruit from the root. The need is biblical doctrine, so understood and felt, that it sets men on fire.

In Spurgeons day!This is to the point. That there is a need to have to over explain the difference or to give some acknowledgement or kudo's to what might be rightly said in part by those pushing this product is to miss the point altogether. Anything approaching fooling is conspicuous by its absence. Short and sharp was the utterance, "Let the dead bury their dead." He was in awful earnestness! "Lord grant Thy servants that by a wise and discriminating use of innocent recreation we may show these people how happy we are." If they ceased not for preaching Christ, they had not time for arranging entertainments. Scattered by persecution, they went everywhere preaching the gospel. They "turned the world upside down." That is the difference! Lord, clear the Church of all the rot and rubbish the devil has imposed on her and bring us back to apostolic methods. The need of the hour for today's ministry is believing scholarship joined with earnest spirituality, the one springing from the other as fruit from the root. The need is biblical doctrine, so understood and felt, that it sets men on fire. Great find here brother.

Sorry for using such small print letters for the article. For easier reading you can go to the website I got it from:http://christianunplugged.com/amuse_goats.htmYou may find aditional info on this touchy subject.We need to pray for eachother about this, for without the help of the Holly Spirit we are all in danger of accepting or inventing a false way of worshiping God.

And how about Job,... God made him rich...???And how about Abraham ... God made him richHow about Solomon, with all his faults, God was the one who made him very very rich.anyone think God favores those people more than you? God says He is no respector of persons.And All the blessings of the covenant God gave to Abraham and his seed...In the New testament, being Rich is not bad, yet the rich are instructed to give away. yes to use the wealth they have, to do good.lust for money is bad, but striving to be wealthy so you can bless a lot of people, is a good reason to be prosperous!!!That is what these "prosperity" teachers preach too, and they practise what they preach.Joyce meyer gives thanks to God for the money she has, do you all give thanks to God for that? Or do you give thanks for God to be poor?The Bible sais: He who will not work, shall not eat . (be poor?)And also proverbs sais there are people who give away , yet they get more. Nowhere in the bible it says that a preacher should be poor. Nowhere it says "be poor" to them that want to obey God;Isajah sais If you are willing and obedient, you shall eat the good of the land.Jona was a preacher, but was he willing, to obey? so are some people today (maybe me too, be honest) I am not rich, but I do believe in prosperity, no, in a God of miracles, in the God of the bible, who works miracles.How prosperous can one be, there was once a prophet in the bible, he came to a woman, and she had her last meal, the prophet said, let me first eat that!!! And later you can eat.That is a prophet you should name in your list! Asking the last meal of the very very poor, just for himself!!!Yet God worked a miracle of prosperity!The meal and the oil kept flowing and she had enough all the time.Anyone who is negative in this thread; are you tithing and giving to Gods work, and to the poor.someone in the thread said: Early on in John Wesleys live he determined to give away everything that he had! He also taught that you should make as much money as you possibly can, in order to give away as much money as you possibly can. Don´t you know how much Kenneth Copeland and all the others mentioned here gave away?i HEARED TODAY a preaching on bvovtv.org that prosperity is exactly that: to accumulate wealth IN ORDER to give away!!! Exactly that is what these so called (in some eyes false) prosperity teachers teach. Exactly same as wesley said!Now the Greatest of ALL!!!JESUS said:Give and it shall be given unto you, good messure pressed down shaken together, shall MEN give unto you. Very strong prosperity teaching I would say?!! Why don´t you put Jesus name between, and on top of the list?????Jesus Himself instructs you to give. He says it shall be given unto you...In the 3rd world countries it would not work, in the thread an evangelist said,.well, if they give, ...what would happen according to Jesus words?Benson Idahosa was a preacher, but when he was born he was unwanted, and thrown on the garbage dump..Yet his life was spared, and later he became a christian, and a preacher, He became prosperous in his job, and when he was a pastor, his church members became prosperous too!! in center of Africa!!! Benin City.just go to e.g. kcm.org and listen for yourself what they preach. a lot of online audio mp3 sermons there too

Hi bph...!While some of men in the Bible (like Job, Abraham and Solomon) had an abundance -- they were not covetous of the things of this world. In fact, even though Abraham was indeed wealthy, he did not even build a house for himself. He continued to live in a tent, waiting for a "city whose builder and maker was God." Its as if he saw little value in the things of this world. And as wealthy as Job may have been -- that worldly sense of "prosperity" did not extend to his body or life when he lost everything. While it is not wrong to have material wealth (or, of course, to be healthy), covetry and greed is a sin. The bible tells us to be content. Yet many prosperity preachers teach the opposite -- placing an unhealthy emphasis on the value on the things of this world. For every "prosperous" figure in the Bible, there are many more who lived without such wealth. In fact, every Biblical teacher or preacher found in the New Testament did not live what most modern preachers would call "proseperous" lifestyles. I believe that the modern teaching of "prosperity" is quite unbiblical and very unhealthy. Why? Because it tends to promote greed, desire and envy. Many believers are encouraged by their pastors to give "seed faith" gifts. They are told that if they give these gifts -- God will return the favor. It is almost a marching order in most "prosperity" or "word of faith" churches. "Give and it will be given to you" is their constant marching call. But they forget what Jesus told us about giving. He said that, when you give, you should not let your "right hand know what your left hand is doing" (Matthew 6). When giving, we are told to give "expecting nothing in return." But it's almost like today's believers are making down payments on miracles or "blessings!" And we know that you cannot tempt or purchase a gift from God. Remember, God doesn't need your money. It means nothing to him! What is important to him is that you give willfully and unbegrudgingly. There are so many Scriptures that warn about the modern teaching of "prosperity." I will try to gather some and update this post with them.There is a true, biblical prosperity -- but it is very different from today's "name it/claim it" message. It teaches contentment and satifaction from knowing that you are in God's hands. Your needs are met, and your treasures are in Heaven (not on Earth).

"But they forget what Jesus told us about giving. He said that, when you give, you should not let your "right hand know what your left hand is doing" (Matthew 6). When giving, we are told to give 'expecting nothing in return.'"Hmmmm, I don't think it says we are to expect nothing in return in this context. I just read Matthew 6 and don't see it there.But I did see the verse you referenced and I think if we look at it in context it seems a bit different than how you presented it.Matthew 6:1-4"Beware of practicing your righteousness before men to be noticed by them; otherwise, you have no reward with your Father in Heaven. When therefore you give alms, do not sound a trumpet before you, as the hypocrites do in the synagogues and in the streets, that they may be honored by men. Truly I say to you, they have their reward in full.But when you give alms, do not let your left hand know what your right hand is doing that your alms may be in secret; and your Father who sees in secret will repay you."Now why would Jesus tell us that our Father is going to repay us for what we give if we're not supposed to expect anything in return, in this context? If Jesus says God's going to do it, then I expect Him to. It's like, "God will repay you, but don't count on it."??? It doesn't make sense to me.

Hi Todd...I think that you might have misunderstood my original post. I didn't say that God does not or will not give to his children who give to him. On the contrary, God gives to those who give (with the right motives). In fact, this is true "prosperity" as found in the Word. However, this same chapter (Matthew 6) also says "Do not store up for yourselves treasures on earth, where moth and rust destroy, and where thieves break in and steal. But store up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where moth and rust do not destroy, and where thieves do not break in and steal. For where your treasure is, there your heart will be also." Here is where the problem lies. The modern prosperity movement preaches almost entirely about the physical things of earth. There is hardly any mention of "spiritual" wealth or "treasures in heaven." It is almost as if the modern prosperity movement considers that true success and "prosperity" is measured almost entirely through physical manifestations. Unfortunately, it seems that this movement misuses the truth that "you can't outgive God" by turning the eyes of believers on the hand of God. This is dangerous because it can cause believers to give in to sins of greed, desire and covetry. But what happens when you are in need? Is it because that you do not give? Is it due to a lack of faith, trust or belief? As often as prosperity preachers talk about the prosperous wealth of Job, they seldom mention that Job endured many days in physical and emotional poverty. He lost almost everything that he held dear! And God allowed this (Job 1:12 and 2:6)! The examples in the Word about men of God who experienced "non-prosperous" lives (as defined by modern prosperity teachings) is quite moving. Paul, Peter, James, John, and the rest of New Testament heroes withstood terrible persecution, and sometimes, affliction. But their testimonies exemplify what Biblical prosperity truly is. Unfortunately, alot of modern proserity preachers change the world of God to make it appear that these were wealthy men. I have even heard a properity preacher defend his lifestyle and teachings by saying that John the Baptist was a "wealthy man" because he baptized people at a resort (the Jordan River) and he wore camelskin and ate locusts, "which were a delicacy in those days." What a terrible twisting of Scripture to fit someone's own lifestyle!There is nothing wrong with having an abundance. In fact, we should definitely strive to provide for ourselves and our families (I Timothy 5:8; I Corinthians 3:10-16). And it is true that God will provide for our needs when we place our trust, faith and hope in him. And when we give -- God returns what we gave. But should that be the focus of our ministry? When people begin to focus on the gifts (or the potential for receiving), then many begin to put faith in that concept, rather than in God himself. Remember, money is not the root of all evil. It is the love of money. Besides, it is clear that it "rains on the just and the unjust" (Matthew 5:45).There are many times that such sacrifices of giving were frowned upon (and unaccepted) by the Lord (Leviticus 10, 2 Samuel 6:3-8, Acts 5:9-11, Genesis 4:3-7, I Samuel 4:1-10 etc...). The point is to give willfully and for the right motive (not to receive -- but to bless). Only then can God truly bless a giver. Matthew 6:25-34 concludes: "Therefore I tell you, do not worry about your life, what you will eat or drink; or about your body, what you will wear. Is not life more important than food, and the body more important than clothes? Look at the birds of the air; they do not sow or reap or store away in barns, and yet your heavenly Father feeds them. Are you not much more valuable than they? Who of you by worrying can add a single hour to his life? And why do you worry about clothes? See how the lilies of the field grow. They do not labor or spin. Yet I tell you that not even Solomon in all his splendor was dressed like one of these. If that is how God clothes the grass of the field, which is here today and tomorrow is thrown into the fire, will he not much more clothe you, O you of little faith? So do not worry, saying, 'What shall we eat?' or 'What shall we drink?' or 'What shall we wear?' For the pagans run after all these things, and your heavenly Father knows that you need them. But seek first his kingdom and his righteousness, and all these things will be given to you as well. Therefore do not worry about tomorrow, for tomorrow will worry about itself. Each day has enough trouble of its own.Here are a few more verses on prosperity (both false prosperity and true biblical prosperity):I Corinthians 9:18Deuteronomy 10:172 Peter 2:2-32 Kings 5:26Acts 8:20-232 Kings 5:15-272 Kings 13:142 Peter 2:2-3Acts 10:32-36I Timothy 6:4-6Ephesians 5:5-6Colosians 3:5Revelation 21:8Hebrews 11:32-40

I think that you might have misunderstood my original post. I didn't say that God does not or will not give to his children who give to him.Ok, but you did seem to imply that we aren't to expect Him to, even though Jesus said He would. Don't you think this is confusing?

Hi Todd...Well, maybe that was a little confusing. God does give back to us, but it should not be the focus or motivation of our giving. It just seems that the modern prosperity movement has turned these physical "blessings" into the focus, and in turn, it has become the motivation of many believers.

Well, maybe that was a little confusing.Ok, thanks for clarifying, I'm glad it's not just me. God does give back to us, but it should not be the focus or motivation of our giving.Hmmm... maybe you're right here. I really don't know for sure. But at this point I don't think it's necessarily a wrong motivation.