Bill Gothard Placed on Administrative Leave

Recovering Grace, by giving voice to the allegations of sexual harassment of dozens of women, and by publishing information from the sex scandal days, has finally pressured the IBLP board to place Gothard on administrative leave while they investigate the claims against him.

"The board of directors of the Institute for Basic Life Principles has placed its longtime leader Bill Gothard, 79, on "administrative leave” while the board investigates claims that he years ago engaged in sexual harassment and other misconduct…”

You can read the rest of the post from World Magazine here.
http://www.worldmag.com/2014/02/bill_gothard_placed_on_administrative_leave

http://www.recoveringgrace.org/2014/02/bill-gothard-placed-on-administrative-leave/#more

I strongly encourage anyone who is or was involved in ATI, IBLP or any other of Bill Gothards programs to go to recoveringgrace.org and spend a few hours reading the articles they have published recently. There's no doubt that Gothards teaching did some good but he also did great harm. These are NOT wild accusations. Recoveringgrace.org has carefully, thoroughly and responsibly documented a litany of inappropriate behavior by Bill Gothard that he engaged in for decades. The accusations don't just come from these 34 women but former board members and seminary presidents who attempted to correct problems early on but were unable to make any progress due to Gothards control and manipulation.

I would encourage saints not to go to this website and read these articles. These things have not been proved. It is clear some young people were sent to these programs by their well meaning home-school parents but they were bitter to be put into a strong disciplined environment and speak about it in terms of a cult and robotic program etc.

Bill Gothard is a very godly men and has had tremendous influence on many. I would be very slow to bring accusation to him or promote slander. I grieved the night I read this article and did not want to post it on SI unless it was 100% verified. May we be in prayer for Bill Gothard during this time.

And yes do pray for some individuals that have been hurt by their parents and the teachings of ATI because they were rebellious and had a hard time with the program.

EDIT: Just-in I tried to privately email you but your email bounced so the email you have listed on the website is not working.

I will check the email, Greg. It is registered to me.

This is public domain and verified that the Board of ATI has done this and is deliberating. They need our prayers.

The board has been approached many times in the last few decades about many things regarding Mr. Gothard and finally they are doing something.

Both Mr. Gothard and the Board need our prayers.

None of us want to be an accomplice for a coverup or slander.

So far, I do not see any slander.

We should not slander recoveringgrace either as adult Christians can and should investigate and draw their own conclusions. Recoveringgrace has acted responsibly in all they have done. Do you have any evidence to the contrary?

Brother, we read articles all the time that have not been proved, however in this case many board members of ATI have complained. This is not just about young girls that have complained, but board members of ATI and this is verified and documented. They have risked their occupation and reputation to come forward and publicly expose what was done in secret.

This is a highly detailed book written by a former board member of ATI. People should always educate themselves.

http://www.amazon.com/Matter-Basic-Principles-Don-Veinot-ebook/dp/B005PR4UKY/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1393866625&sr=8-1&keywords=bill+gothard

Greg, I saw your other request but the thread was locked?

I will voluntarily stop posting for now and maybe it will be permanent. I will wait upon the Lord. This is your place and I will respect your wishes. May the Lord give us grace and have mercy on us.

The Lord bless everyone, richly.

1 Thessalonians 5:5
Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day:we are not of the night, nor of darkness.

I do not affirm or deny what has been written on the Recovering Grace website. I do sense that many of the comments written there are out of great bitterness. We have been involved with this organization for decades. I would caution everyone to look within themselves and make certain that we are not reading every juicy tidbit in a spirit of slander or gossip. If you were not involved, it is really no concern other than to pray. God desires truth in the innermost parts. I pray that truth is disclosed to that end.

Many young lives have been damaged not so much thru this program or the failings of men like Mr Gothard or Doug Phillips (earlier thread), but through satan's efforts to distort the truth of the Bible thru the humanity of these men. None of us is beyond falling. Please, saints, do not fall into the trap of gossip.....And pray for the young people - that they will be able to discern truth, and not jump off into compromise out of not wanting to be linked with this group or that group. Such things have happened in many a church as well.....a very grievous thing. The enemy will go to any length to derail God's plan. Many of us parents poured our lives into raising godly seed for God's glory...we are not perfect, and neither are our leaders perfect...mama27

Amen to every word of your post mama27. It is seasoned with wisdom and grace from a mother who has every good reason to comprehend its fuller meaning. Bless you for having the courage and integrity to share your own heart.

When something is "reported commonly" then the man of God should step up rather than not address widespread public statements from Christians (those beside him in ministry as well as those who receive his ministry). Any accusation, especially a voluminous amount of accusations from within the Church (ministry boards members, team members, young people and parents) should never be ignored. This is not without precedent.

What did Paul do with hearsay that was from more than the mouth of two witnesses?

1Cor 5:1 IT IS REPORTED COMMONLY that there is fornication among you, and such fornication as is not so much as named among the Gentiles, that one should have his father's wife.

"It is reported commonly"

1Cor 5:1 IT IS REPORTED COMMONLY that there is fornication among you, and such fornication as is not so much as named among the Gentiles, that one should have his father's wife.

Ὅλως ἀκούεται ἐν ὑμῖν πορνεία, καὶ τοιαύτη πορνεία ἥτις οὐδὲ ἐν τοῖς ἔθνεσιν, ὥστε γυναῖκά τινα τοῦ πατρὸς ἔχειν"

Tischendorf, C. von, Gregory, C. R., & Abbot, E. (Eds.). (1869”“1894). Novum Testamentum graece. (Vol. 2, p. 478). Lipsiae: Giesecke & Devrient.

holos (ὅλως, 3654), from holos, "all, whole,” is translated "actually” in 1 Cor. 5:1, RV ("it is actually reported”); the KJV "commonly” does not convey the meaning. In 6:7 it is translated "altogether” (KJV, "utterly”); in 15:29, "at all,” as in Matt. 5:34. See ALL, ALTOGETHER.¶

Vine, W. E., Unger, M. F., & White, W., Jr. (1996). Vine’s Complete Expository Dictionary of Old and New Testament Words. Nashville, TN: T. Nelson.

It would appear that your rationale is predicated on the idea that if enough people are willing to make an accusation then it must be true. Or at least if not true then it must be seen as true and dealt with as though it were true for the sake of the alleged victims.

I noted your link to this website four weeks ago and followed it up then. I feel sure that you will be pleased to know that I didn't miss it after all. I looked through the site from the first post in 2011 right up to the last post and article. I spent five or six hours going through the site.

I noted that the site was originally set up to challenge Bill Gothard's teachings. The accusations of sexual harassment began to be added after some considerable time. Did you realise that the very worst and most serious accusation by an individual female amounts to Bill allegedly giving her a kiss on the lips as he said goodbye to her. It is all set into context of an abuse of authority. And for obvious legal reasons the actual act which ultimately defines the term abuse is set in the parlance of statutory criminal law. The term used is sexual harassment.

Another accusation has to do with the appropriateness of spending time with females alone and in that context encouraging them to confess their sexual sins. In that context you ought to read much more carefully before you join in the accusations yourself.I have to tell you that the statement of this particular sister is so flawed rationally that it couldn't stand up in a court of law in any country. It is rationally flawed and inconsistent with truthfulness in the proper sense of what truthfulness means. I don't expect you to believe me but as you are so eager to be the man of God in this matter you might want to go back and read her 'testimony' (statement) properly and you may just see what I mean. If not who cares?

There are also other accusation, mostly to do with what could reasonably be called sexual harassment.

One thing is very definite the determination of those who manage this site is to destroy a man, deal a death blow to what they believe are false teachings and to do it in public with no meaningful opportunity for the man himself to reasonably defend himself. You may have no comprehension of what truth is, but some of us have. Telling Bill that he can attend a meeting where he can meet the people he has harmed, including the females who he has abused and manipulated, is to find him guilty by majorative or commonly held reports. It is no wonder that you place so much emphasis on the term 'commonly' from your elected translation of 1 Corinthians 5:1.

Still kissing an 18 year old girl on the lips is a probable hanging offence in some States. He may even have to suffer eternal torment for it. Now that will be worth watching as we bask in the glory of our own righteousness.

Ahh, someone went into the Greek to nullify the plain words of Scripture.

That is reported to be a common practice, today. It actually is a common practice.

Two witnesses is plenty. 30 is more than enough. I have been following this for 10 years so though it is not a surprise to me, I understand why it is a surprise to others.

As part of our community rules we have:

7. SLANDERING OTHERS - We have a zero tolerance on slander, evil-speaking and speaking against a person's character without warrant. 'Slander no one.' / 'to malign no one, to be peaceable, gentle, showing every consideration for all men.' NASB (Titus 3:2). This is a very important biblical principle and we ask that you would especially respect the biblical method of approaching a brother privately (Matthew 18:15). Also there are hundreds of websites in the internet that exclusively post wrong teachings, errors and question the character of Christians, we do not want SermonIndex to be seen as such a ministry and ask that all forum members do not participate in posting in what is wrong. We believe simply that truth dispels errors and to focus on the truth will shine a light into all the darkness.

Please do read more here: https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=44556&forum=13

Towards Bill Gothard, and news about his falling, I at first was very grieved and reluctant to post the news item. I do not agree with all the teachings of his ministry but did have respect for some things. I have heard recently from one elder brother that these allegations (some of them) could very well possibly be true and there is a seriousness here. I would personally rather post the end result from the ministry and godly men who are weighing this situation. That is the one reason why I was reluctant and still am to a small measure to cast a stone and say that Bill Gothard IS guilty.

we posted this above statement in this thread: https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=51725&forum=35

May we look to ourselves more then judging others. Have I watched women in a wrong way? Am I enjoying emotional conversations with women? Do I enjoy looking at pretty women?

May God preserve us from accusing others but ourselves being in transgression. May we pray for brothers who have seemingly failed.

I highly recommend this free booklet: Contentiously Contending: A Word to Today’s Apologetics Emphasis by Anton Bosch
https://www.smashwords.com/books/view/392961

Greg, would you be clear? Are you accusing recoveringgrace.org of slandering? I have not read where anyone on SI is slandering. To accuse someone of slander is to slander them. Can you identify who you are accusing of slander or are you just warning everyone to be careful?

Sree,

The issue was reported by a Christian magazine used widely by homeschoolers and Christians in general. It is a magazine about Christian worldview and world events which included events within Christendom.

The conversations here are not about him, as they have turned to what the Church should do in these situations according to the Scriptures. The ATI board is handling the matter and everyone should wait for their response.

Ahh, someone went into the Greek to nullify the plain words of Scripture. just-in

The plain words of scripture are written in Greek in this instance of 1 Corinthians chapter five!

Can I just say that I have no knowledge of Bill or his ministry or his teachings or his anything. It wouldn't matter to me what he had done for the Lord as far as using my mind is concerned to understand the truthfulness of something. The only reason I looked into this issue is because you made it so with your signature link to the web site which is condemning him. When I started to read those statements or testimonies of alleged abuse and compared that with the actual narrative of the website I found an alarming disparity. I kept it to myself then and have only commented now because once again you have raised the issue. You have encouraged people to go to this site and you have self evidently done so because you believe both the narrative and the testimony is true.

Now you are saying that all of this has somehow an official stamp of concern. So you say wait and see. There has been no waiting and seeing by anyone. The site condemned Bill online in public without reservation months ago. I made a copy of the site in its previous state to record the facts as they were. The new sight is a more sophisticated version in which the details are becoming more and more carefully worded as things gather momentum. Either way it is all going to come to a head very quickly and I rather doubt that Mr Gothard will be spared as the crowd is already baying for his neck. It is only a simple matter of translating things into a form of words which informs statutory responsibility in the issue of duty of care and employment, and any authority, other than criminal, will be obliged to press for his removal or else the ministry itself will collapse under the weigh of a risk of future prosecution should anyone else come forwards with a more serious charge that clearly falls into the frame of reference of genuine abuse of a minor.

This is not truth and it is not true justice. Whatever it is, it will not matter to anyone who cannot see beyond the end of their noses.

I don't agree at all with how you are characterizing the content or the Believers on the website. I will not get into a tit for tat with you. There are many, many websites that speak of such evidence. I will not list them, but they are many more than what exists for Doug Phillips (Vision Forum) and the content is not new. It goes back many years. It is a well-known tactic to twist the words of the defendants and this situation is no different. That is all I will say.

I have yet to read the thread on gossip and slander, but all this debating as to this man's innocence or guilt just sickens me. If anyone is connected with this ministry and "knows" things, it is different. But to be discussing it ad nauseum as a "news item" is not what I think Christians ought to be doing.

I saw a comment somewhere that it was from an article in World magazine which is a magazine accepted among homeschoolers. That is true. We have subscribed to the magazine. But I honestly cancelled my subscription over what seemed innappropriate "dirt" that was in print over another sex scandal - I am thinking it was the Bill Clinton incident, though I don't know if the magazine has been in print that long. It is just not necessary... I am not advocating hiding sin under the carpet. I just think as believers we ought not to be feasting on more than just a simple reporting of the incident. More than that, especially if it doesn't concern you, is not Christlike.

I am closer to this situation than some on this forum, and there are things I could report. But why?? Why would I do that? To make myself appear to be "in the know"? Again, I am not advocating hiding sin....but just let's examine our motives here....

We ought to be so very grieved at such an incident, whether it is TRUE OR FALSE because it tarnishes the name of Christ....I don't sense that some are as concerned at the reputation of Christ, as much as casting stones....

Sister, fully agreed. Thank you for sharing your heart. We ought to be very grieved and prayerful for true brethren when they have fallen into the enemies traps.

"reputation of Christ".

mama27,

Who in the world is "feasting over this"? Everyone is grieved at how it has been handled and for all the people involved, including Bill and especially for the Lord Jesus.

Absolutely, mama27, of course.

And you, Greg Gordon, owner of Sermon Index, and I, mama27, homeschooling mother of 7, are just as easily able to fall into the enemy's trap....indeed, the higher the profile or what is at stake, I believe the more one is a target of the enemy....let us not think we are immune for one second!

Sister,

I do not think you are over-reacting at all. I fully agree that we need to get the right perspective on these things of how the Lord is thinking right now. These type of sad stories put a great fear of the Lord in me. Thank you for your humility in not wanting to hurt anyone in your comments for myself personally I was encouraged by what you wrote and feel you were doing the job of a moderator to put the conversation in the right tone and direction of how we should be thinking.

I had to say I wondered how long it would take to come to this point you make Diane.

And there are also many (like wives) who put humans as their head, above Christ ”“ who also unwittingly perpetuated the teaching ”“ failing to grasp their own calling and destiny.

You are absolutely right about one thing. It is much more about the issue of feminism and removing the male from the head of the woman than it has to do with Bill's years long issues over 'dating' numerous young women.

I knew where Just-In was coming from the moment he made this site his signature four weeks ago. That was in response to another discussion on the very same subject as well.

You're are all mad as hatters. Still in the end you are reaping what you have sown as a nation and that is a fact.

One thing I would like to be able to understand which is in a sense removed from any moral issues has to do with the teachings of Bill Gothard.

I understand the issue of overstating the role of authority in the family and from that extrapolating a legalistic position in which children and other family members can be dealt with in a less than gentle way. That aspect of the effect of Bill's teachings appears to be fairly easily understood. I think that also explains the response of some who emphasise equality between family members, especially husbands and wives.

The thing which is eluding me at the moment has to do with a special emphasis which the Recovering Grace website is placing on what they see to be a significant problem with the teaching on the tripartite view of man. Spirit, Soul and Body. Does anyone know why this teaching is problematic?

I also have read through the transcript of a conference call made with regard to Bill, in 1983 as well as transcript notes going back to 1971 and I can see no reference to this teaching or why it is problematic.

The reason I am asking is that I have been researching a number of other instances of very high profile brothers from a number of countries going back to the 1950's where this teaching has been raised as a fundamental doctrinal foundation upon which individual men are said to present a genuine behavioural and theological attitude which ends up being destructive. This includes top down authoritative structures, modelled on the patriarchal family model, an ability to disregard serious moral issues, independent and elitist decision making which ultimately harms others as well as other points.

Does anyone know why believing in Spirit, Soul and Body can be claimed to justify this effect? How does that distinction give rise to patriarchal and by de facto adoption, also effect and influence the churches as well?

What happened in the USA in the mid 70's or thereabouts which led to this very strong response to reject the principle of headship in the home, and the church in the sense of embracing political feminist views? How does Spirit, Soul and Body teachings link in with that embrace?

This is not my imagination at work. In researching a particular brother over the last few months I have found a surprising link back to the USA and especially theological colleges in the USA and adoption of this same criticism of this teaching in the natal country of origin.

Also I don't want to participate in a political gender discussion, whether sociologically informed or psychologically informed. From the perspective of the world such things are easily understood and justified without regard to consequences.

I see that one of the biggest concerns expressed over Bill Gothard was originally his lack of qualification to be a seminary teacher. To that criticism he went and got himself a PhD in 2005. This expression was made by theological professors as evidenced by their participation in historical attempts to remove Bill which go right back to 1971. It so happens that I have found evidence that this same process was started with other well known pastors and teachers around that same time in the USA, and all the accusations can be found in their case as well. Yet the one thing which seems to elude me is why this teaching of Spirit, Soul and Body keeps getting cited as a fundamental and important ingredient in explaining the overarching personal and spiritual lives of these men who are being dealt with in this way.

If no one can answer my question or else it seems to the moderators that it is an inappropriate question to ask please feel completely free to just ignore it. I could say that consistently over the past two years I have seen that some members almost always present a political position (as I understand it) when speaking about the problems of sin in the church, and especially sexual sin by pastors and elders. They have specifically opposed this teaching of Spirit, Soul and Body as well. What is the connection?

Teachings of any man should be examined in the light of scripture without touching the man (teacher) or fear of reprisal from others. I don't think I have seen any of Gothard's teachings examined on SI, which is a curious thing to me.

However, the SI forum members have been diligent to examine the teachings of many others.

It seems very unlikely that anyone would disagree that we ought to test what we have heard. Pretty well everyone who teaches would agree with that surely? Otherwise they are simply running the risk of being completely ignored. I know that this is not the same as realising that many people may not test what they hear, especially if they are following a man. It was rather to say that those like Bill who have given their whole lives to their calling hold a sincere belief in what they teach and to that end support what they believe Scripturally. No one is perfect. I don't suppose anyone would really dare to claim they are. Again they would be ignored pretty soon if they did.

I have no intention of getting into Bill's teaching ministry and what he taught. My guess is that I would most likely agree with most all of it. But I don't really know that for certain. I do know that the more perfectly someone presents Scripture and their beliefs around the Scriptures, the less likely those who read their teachings are to rely on the Holy Spirit to teach them directly. Perhaps the Holy Spirit simply confirms for most people what others have wrestled over in a godly desire to serve God.

Perhaps Diane will allow me to quote her from March 2006 in a discussion on how to exercise wisdom in choosing ones marriage partner.

I have the solution: The PARENTS should pick the spouses. After all, the parents have tons more maturity and insight than their offspring. Now, the next challenge is: How do we implement this? The closest I have heard of this in the Christian community is Bill Gothard. He did not believe in dating, and he believed that the parents should be consented and be considered the authorities in these matters. I think he has some valid, excellent teachings about marriage.

The only thing about Gothard, is that apparently wherever his seminars have been, there is a higher incidence of divorce. Perhaps that is the danger of presenting very high standards that just can't be met in real life. The pressure rises and snap!

That quote perfectly corresponds to what I posted when I said in my last post:

I understand the issue of overstating the role of authority in the family and from that extrapolating a legalistic position in which children and other family members can be dealt with in a less than gentle way. That aspect of the effect of Bill's teachings appears to be fairly easily understood. I think that also explains the response of some who emphasise equality between family members, especially husbands and wives.

There is no way I am going to speak against what I would regard to be basic truths concerning authority, submission and obedience in these things. Regardless as to the consequences I don't think error can be avoided completely. Not the teacher, nor those who hear him.

My reason for making my last seemingly emollient post was not in any way whatsoever intended to get into debating Bill's ministry or teaching. It was believe it or not exactly what I said. I never cease to be surprised that when I am reasonable in my posts I am always taken to mean the very opposite to what I actually mean. It is no wonder I have to confine myself to straight speaking.

Which brings me to your point about separation of the teacher from the teaching. It cannot be done. I don't believe that it can be justified Scripturally. Bill isn't going to escape the consequences of teaching a straight line either. This isn't simply a matter of being more strictly judged hereafter by the Lord, it will also mean being judged here and now more strictly as well.

I believe that it is in this context that Bill and others like him, who have taken a biblical stance on the true meaning of family life as God Himself has presented it to us, are soft targets when it comes to things going wrong. What I cannot accept is that presenting true Godly and Biblical values of itself is where the fault lays. To me overemphasis is often a too narrow focus if we go too far in pressing even that which is true.

The fact that we can make our own mistakes and sin ourselves simply means that we will actually be hated by some of those we have taught. I know plenty of kids who have hated (emotional) their parents for a season. If the parents then stumble themselves the kids will fall even harder on them and they may even fall away for a short or long season of time. What are we going to do when this happens? Throw away the truth? Or will we keep on with the truth with tears and ask our children to forgive us because we have stumbled! If we do stumble and become angry with our kids what then? They simply feel justified. If we have really loved them from the beginning it ought not to last for long. But there are no guarantees as everyone who has grown up children knows.

In a society such as the USA and the UK this could even mean our children beginning to feel justified in holding us to account in ways which are unfathomable to most of the world, including many European countries as well.

With Bill the attacks started in 1971. That is a long time to bear with others who are offended because other members of our family are imperfect. I can't say much more than that. I am still trying to understand how the one teaching of Spirit, Soul and Body could possibly have any bearing on these things. No doubt the Lord will show me if I need to know.

As for separating the teacher from the teaching, it cannot be done. I know everyone wants it to be true and some even go to great lengths to insist on it. In the end if you teach it and you are sincere then you must also believe it. If you believe it you will live it. If you live it you will also set the very example in visibility of that which you have taught. If others hear it and see your example they will either walk faithfully or they will stumble. Either way it will be to your account.

I don't know what you mean about fear of reprisals from others, but it sounds like you don't want to be taken to task yourself. Anytime you want to take me to task please do it. I really will not be offended no matter how straight you are with me. But if I do start to poke the nest with a stick it is because I am trying to dislodge the serpents.

Actually, amr, I believe some men's teachings are probably not to be discussed on SI, but I could be wrong and easily test that by discussing some of IBLP's teachings. However, there is so much material online regarding Gothardism, that I really don't have the inclination or the time to go over ground that has already been thoroughly worked. The senior folks here at SI who are intimately aware of Gothardism owe it to the Body of Christ to have exposed the severe errors in Gothardism and how they could affect an individual, families and the Body of Christ at large (and have). You are very new to it and reading from your posts, you are not even scratching the surface. Most of what you say, you are saying from a very uninformed position, diminishing the side of those who have been taken advantage of and strengthening (enabling) the other side, by your uninformed statements.

It is much more than the teaching of Spirit, Soul and Body. Please do some research first.

The reason I say examine the teaching without touching the teacher, is because I am keenly aware from observation that whenever someone on SI examines the teaching of a "beloved teacher", SI senior staff accuse you of slandering the teacher. If I am wrong, then I would invite SI to invite anyone (doesn't have to be me) to start a thread to examine IBLP Teachings.

I find that stance, incredulous and unproductive and a disservice to the Body of Christ and thinking, discerning individuals.

That is all I have time for now. Not being terse, just have an appointment to go to.

Blessings to you.

Brother I am doing my research and I know what others have said very well indeed. What I do not know is what Bill actually said. That is because I haven't had any reason to know. My own family have all been home schooled and unfortunately for us it was all grounded in North American culture. For a British man that was a real sacrifice I can tell you! My son James, bless him, still knows more about the USA than he knows about Britain. We pray for him daily.

On a more serious note I feel sure that the reason Greg doesn't want this to turn into a testing everything forum is because that in itself wouldn't really satisfy any genuine spiritual purpose. Mama27 made the point that having a need to know is most likely the only true basis for knowing. Otherwise we would be all at sea with criticism.

As a trustee of a private christian school which is the national representative for a North American home school system I struggle all the time with what I can see. Not that I have read anything which I believed was doctrinally wrong. In fact it has all been pretty sound in that sense. It is just a little smarmy and self righteous at times and fails to take account of all those imperfect kids that just don't get it for whatever reason. On the other hand I have seen some really lovely and obedient children who are in no way ignorant of reality. They just have the blessing of being able to obey their parents and teachers. Like it or not it is to their benefit. Just as my own rebelliousness as a child at school went against me.

As far as the Spirit, Soul, and Body thing is concerned I actually believe it without reservation. My thought there has nothing to do with believing that particular teaching to be false. I am not seeking to assert anything false at all.

You are not the first to ask the same question regarding IBLP here on SI. I could show you but you wouldn't thank me for it. If I am completely open I too have scratched my head at times with some articles. Not the content of that particular article necessarily, but rather the author's broader teachings or beliefs have been the issue. Today it happened yet again. I very nearly posted something else this particular author had written and then thought why? There is nothing wrong with whats posted why bother with that which is not seen. Some things are worth pursuing, but it isn't always easy to pursue somethings and it takes a good deal of wisdom and opportunity of the Lord to persist with it. But it must be in the Spirit otherwise it will simply cause people to become critical. That is why I spend so much time making sure I don't lead a rebellion when I am pressing a point. If anyone wants to follow me they had better get ready to be thrown of the cliff. I won't tolerate it in any circumstance at all. Can you say the same brother? Are you really very certain that you know how to resist becoming a cause of stumbling and rebellion in others? If not you have absolutely no authority to say anything at all in criticism of others.

The church or the body of Christ is not a democracy. We don't get to vote. If we cannot accept that then no doubt that will prove difficult. I have stood for men who I have no doubt represent some difficulty for me. Regardless as to how it may seem brother my personal life has been most exceptional in every sense. I have an amazing faithful and obedient wife, I have a severely disabled son who the Lord uses in his own body to teach me daily, another son who is simply just like I was at his age only without all the bad parts, and a daughter who didn't even kiss a boy until she kissed her husband. Yet I am a complete dog. I have done heroin, morphine, smack and coke, smoked more nine bars than I can remember. Slept with prostitutes, ruined innocent girls, lied, stolen hated and railed against authorities. And all of that was before I reached 23 years old. When I really reflect on those things it always amazes me that the Lord has blessed me with such a wife and children.

I ask 'Lord why?' The Lord always tells me the same thing. 'I want you the way you are". The Lord tied me down with chords of righteousness. Praise His name. What a God we serve! If Bill has said any good thing and I know that he has, then that good thing is worth saying. The rest is of no use unless you are prepared to really be broken for the sake of the one you are to minister too.

Some years after this, I was asked by a pastor friend for a reference as he made application to attend a school run by the Gothard ministry. The man was eminently qualified, but because he wore a beard he was denied. The response he received said the beard was a symbol of rebellion! I thought this to be somewhat outrageous, since I had come to believe that Mr. Gothard had a better understanding of the real sources of spiritual rebellion. Some people keep a beard because their facial skin does not tolerate shaving very well! sidewalk

I found this comment of yours very insightful. At first I did a second take at the idea of a beard being a symbol of rebellion. Then immediately I realised in context of US culture in the 1970's wearing beards and being young was definitely associated with the hippie culture. The same was true in the UK. Long hair had a more pertinent effect. Long hair and a beard would get you strung up in some States. Bill's ministry began in the context of a concern for young people at a time when the US had a drugs problem which most people, including US citizens don't realise was destroying thousands of lives across cities in the US. Isn't this where David Wilkerson steps onto the stage? No beards amongst those he ministered to I grant you, but the spinoff from the hippie culture and the introduction of an open use of recreational drugs into society cannot have been unimportant.

I agree that wearing a beard is of no consequence, but as with most things in context, those who are setting an example may well feel it is appropriate to act in a way that counters the cultural influences on the youth they care about. Who knows! It is just one more of those many things that will be used to 'prove' legalism and a lack of discernment. All I can say is that my sons have beards as I do myself, most of the people I know don't have beards. You may laugh at this but when I was a young believer I thought having a beard was a sign of maturity. If I had been in Bill's shoes everyone would have been required to wear a beard including the sisters! Now that would have been weird!

Question: What is there about us that tempts us to render too much unto our "Ceasars”?

We were created to derive our spiritual life from a source outside of ourselves. We were created to look to another for our spiritual life. That is only found in Christ.

It is easier to follow a man (walk by sight) than abide in the Lord. To truly follow the Lord and abide in Him one must have the Spirit and embrace the cross.

The cross is the key and the flesh will do anything to avoid it, even becoming quite religious, nullifying God's word, by codifying it with our own principles, rules and regulations which have an appearance of godliness but no power of His life and His love. Religious flesh has created many ways to avoid the cross.

It is very deceptive as it causes one to believe they are doing what is right and just for themselves and their family and that we are pleasing God. But we will fail to see how legalistic we are and how harsh and judgmental we are towards others. There are many individuals today that want you to conform to their idea of being a Christian.

Also, the desires and lusts of the flesh cannot be controlled by self-imposed religious rules and boundaries. There exists no true power.

http://ronhenzel.tripod.com/GothardZone/08-BG2BG/index.html

by roadsign on 2014/3/6 21:54:10

I read the link. Interesting critique. I would think that such concerns easily pass under the radar because it seems so right - esp in conservative Christianity - or in strict religious environments in general: Unwavering allegiance to authority figures, asceticism, holiness-type teaching, good behaviour, etc.

Sounds like the church of antiquity - Rule of St. Benedict, etc.

I certainly can't disagree with you on that, Diane. What "seems so right", often is the fertile ground of many things of which G. Richard Fisher gives a fair critique about regarding IBLP's teachings and worrisome interpretations of scripture.

http://www.pfo.org/bgothard.htm

Amen, Diane. I will be away for a few days (traveling), too. It is definitely worth exploring why we have a propensity to be dependent on men.

Our problem today is not so much legalism but rather authoritarianism. Legalistic teachings seem to come through authoritarian teachers. American evangelicals seem to have an infatuation with spiritual authority.

The Bible teaches Christ alone has spiritual authority over His people, and every believer in His kingdom is a priest unto God. Nobody else has "spiritual authority" over anybody else. Christ, in shepherding His people, dispenses spiritual gifts to enable us to serve one another, never to rule over one another.

Brethren,

I am going to ask saints to end the discussion here about Bill Gothard and his ministry. We do not believe it is flawless in doctrine but there is much more right then wrong and I personally do not agree with much of the criticism apart from the allegations of sexual mis-conduct brought out recently.

We therefore want saints to pray for Bill Gothard and this ministry. We also want to not publically discuss and tear apart this ministry or man anymore. Also for those who have to know instead of guessing whether he is guilty or not I believe you should wait to hear officially from their ministry as they have said:

==

"The Board of Directors of the Institute in Basic Life Principles is doing a very prayerful, thorough, and Biblical review in regards to the assertions brought by various individuals and groups. After completion of the review the Board will respond at an appropriate time, and in a Biblical manner.

"Mr. Gothard is on administrative leave while the Board completes its review. He will not be involved in the operations of the ministry. The Board of Directors will be prayerfully appointing interim leadership.”

==

So this investigation is still pending by their board, they have emailed all of their families this also. I want all saints to consider here that 1000's of young people's walk with the Lord are at stake. Many have been deeply discouraged by these events and the enemy (Satan) is working greatly to un-do all the good God has done by organizations such as this and Vision Forum and others.

This free ebook speaks of the need for us to share the heart of the Lord towards those who are wrong in doctrine or life and I encourage saints who have participated in this thread to consider to read this booklet:

Contentiously Contending: A Word to Today’s Apologetics Emphasis
By Anton Bosch
https://www.smashwords.com/books/view/392961

We are locking this thread and ask that other threads not be open towards Bill Gothard and His ministry in the near future. There is enough links to accusative materials for people to consider if this ministry is not valid. And we know enough of the situation to pray adaquately for this ministry and Bill Gothard as a brother also.