Subject of healing

The subject of healing becomes muddy waters for me and I think it is because of my exposure to Word of Faith teaching from the past plus a friend who passed away who was hardcore WOF as well. I was recently in an online discussion with someone on healing and they said some things that I don't quite agree with yet I don't really know what is true when it comes to healing from God v. going to the doctor. I want to provide some comments from this person and tell me what your opinion is on his view from a biblical critique. I need my psyche and heart reset in this area or at least put forth in the right direction.

I think what is going on here is that you want to "see" the healing take place for then being able to believe it...you need to change your approach, and here is how:
Let's take the groin injury you have...you feel the pain and you BELIEVE you are not healed because of that. The "physical" is dictating what you "believe". Wipe all that away, and now BELIEVE that you are HEALED in JESUS' NAME, the healing has already occurred, it just hasnt manifested in the natural yet, but it has occurred.
Also change the way you speak...Dont say "I have a groin pull", but rather say "I have the SYMPTOMS of a groin pull".
By faith we are healed, we only get excited when the healing manifests in the natural, but instead we should already believe we are healed before that.
I dont care if i have symptoms of a headache, I am healed in the name of Jesus. I dont care if I have symtoms of arthritis, I am healed in the name of Jesus, etc etc
Also go to a physician, physicians have their place too, they can diagnose and cure within the physical realm. We do what we gotta do in the spiritual as well as in the natural

This talk sounds alot like Word of Faith talk and even border line Christian Science, in the denial of the sickness/injury part. To me faith is being prostituted in this persons words.

And then there was a follow up even to this post

HEY YOUNG MAN, OF GOD LOOK, I HEAR U HAVE THE SAME DEALIN' WITH UR GROWNIN' AREA. WELL I HAD THE SAME DEALIN' BACK 2YEARS WHEN I WAS SQUATTIN' IN MY GROWIN' AREA.

HERE IS WHAT I DID AND SAID.

1. I THANKED JESUS FOR MY HEALIN'

2. I CLAMED MY HEALIN' AND LAYED HANDS IN THAT AREA OF MY BOD WITH (name omitted) ALSO LAYIN' HIS HANDS ON ME AT THE SAME TIME

3. WE BOTH TOTALLY AGREED THAT I WAS AND AM TOTALLY HEALED IN THAT AREA AND WE BELIEVED AND NEVER WEAVERED FROM THAT.

NOW IT TOOK 2WEEKS YET I STILL DID MY QUADS AND I USED VERY LIGHT WEIGHTS UNTIL IT WAS TOTALLY GONE.

SEE JESUS TOOK ALL SICKNESS AND PAIN AND OTHER TYPES OF SICKNESS, WAY BEFORE WE EVER GOT SICK.

SEE JESUS TOLD US TO BELIEVE BY FAITH AND (name omitted) AND ME BOTH TOTALLY BELIEVED AND STILL BELIEVE, AND NOW WE R WAY PASS THE BELIEVIN'. WE R IN THE KNOWIN' THAT WE R AND STAY TOTALLY HEALED IN JESUS' NAME.

Are their words true to form in how we should approach healing and healing miracles before God? Have they taken things out of context?

btw, This is from a weightlifting site and I mentioned that I have groin pull that affects me when I run for the first 5 minutes. I think I got it from doing the ab wheel a few months ago.

John

God heals when He wishes, and that is not always””obviously, since He has declined to heal millions of trusting Christians throughout history, who were looking to Him for healing. What, in their circumstances, could possibly have prevented Him from healing, if He had wished to do so?

If a person answers that it is always a matter of faith or lack thereof, I would have to say, "Wait till you have been around longer before making such absurd and uncharitable judgments against suffering people." I know of more than one person die of cancer while faithfully confessing, to their last breath, "by His stripes I am healed!" They never wavered in their faith that God would heal them. If their faith was not good enough, what hope can any of us have of having "the right amount" of faith?"

All that being said I do indeed believe that we should exercise our authority when praying for healing even to the point of commanding sickness to leave in Jesus' name. That is how the apostles prayed. I know for a fact that for me at least I have had much better success with this approach than when I used to pray "please heal so and so if it be Your will." To me that is a cop out escape clause. If God does not heal the person then obviously it was not his will. But it weakens my prayer to the consistency of thin gruel if I throw that phrase in there.

That's my initial two cents.

One more thing... Bill Johnson wears glasses (why??) and some of the founders of the WOF movement are dead.

Hi John,

I can relate a testimony of my mum's friend on healing, and I know it to be true. She had foot problems for many years - I don't really know the specifics, but it gave her pain and she could only wear sandals (if I recall correctly). She had sought medical advice in different countries, but to no avail.

One day, she decided to speak out loud that her foot problems were not of God. She would pointedly say to the foot, "This is not of God, this is not of God." She did this every day, and some weeks later her foot was miraculously healed - to her surprise.

So what are the lessons we should draw from this testimony? Is this vindication for "Word of Faith" doctrines?

I believe God honours trust in Him, and God chose to intervene in that lady's situation and bless her .

She laid hold of a truth - that her foot problems were not of God. Whether there was healing or not, it was a truth which deserved assertion. As she was surprised by the outcome, I suppose she wasn't reciting it in a formulaic way to obtain healing.

I believe a substantial of the Christian journey is learning to trust God regardless of the outcome. All truths deserve assertion, but God cannot be manipulated via 'formulas' to obtain specific ends.

I am wondering if this thing called healing is an organic thing. Sometimes a person will call out the healing and eventually God heals. Other times God will instill faith into a persons heart to believe for their healing or even someone else's healing and it will happen. But then in other cases it doesn't happen and we just don't know why.

Would anyone agree with this scenario?

As for seeking medical help, I do know people who do not take medicine and trust God for healing.

Personally, I see modern medicine and medical personnel as blessings from God. God can certainly render help to us in many ways. As much as God honours faith in Him, we can't dictate how He answers our prayers.

Perhaps I can bring up the example of John Sung (Chinese evangelist): there were many signs and wonders, including healings, which followed his ministry. But when he was bedridden and ill towards the end of his life, he didn't refuse medical assistance either. This is a pretty decent biography of him: http://www.amazon.com/Biography-John-Sung-Leslie-Lyall/dp/9814138193

//DEADn: "I am wondering if this thing called healing is an organic thing. Sometimes a person will call out the healing and eventually God heals. Other times God will instill faith into a persons heart to believe for their healing or even someone else's healing and it will happen. But then in other cases it doesn't happen and we just don't know why.

Would anyone agree with this scenario?"//

I'm not sure what is meant by "organic" here. But God is certainly sovereign over the healing outcome, and we are to trust him regardless of the outcome (Hebrews 11:6). Trusting Him that He is who He says He is - that He loves you, is perfectly good and is always there for you... even if the situation doesn't seem to suggest that (from our limited and flawed human perception).

The modern "healing movement” has had some fanaticism and some false doctrine. It is certainly not always God’s will to heal the sick now, as it was not in Bible times. Sometimes it is God’s will for people to be sick and so learn some lessons or receive some blessing or give some gracious testimony to God’s help in trouble. Sometimes Christians ought to die. And the doctors and medicines are not wrong. God more usually uses means to heal people, just as He even uses human means and testimony in getting out the gospel and in saving souls. But making allowance for heresies and fanaticism, which we do not endorse, it is still true that God today sometimes miraculously intervenes to heal the sick. Dr. John Rice

HEALTH, WEALTH AND HAPPINESS:
HAS THE PROSPERITY GOSPEL OVERSHADOWED THE GOSPEL OF CHRIST?
DR. DAVID JONES, PHD, Southeastern Baptist Theological Seminary
DR. RUSSELL S. WOODBRIDGE, PHD, Southeastern Baptist Theological Seminary

Every day on radio or TV there’s a gospel being proclaimed””the gospel of prosperity. The gospel teaches that God wants to fulfill our every desire for health, wealth, and happiness, and all it takes is sufficient faith. The preachers of prosperity tout their own opulent lifestyles as proof of their message: God wants His children to have it all. IS this the gospel? Or is it is just a feel-good, self-centered appeal to our materialistic impulses that omits the message of Jesus and the cross? The Bible has plenty to say about wealth and possessions, but those teachings are routinely twisted out of context or carelessly misinterpreted. . Authors David W. Jones and Russell S. Woodbridge go back to the Scriptures to set forth a truly biblical understanding of wealth, poverty, suffering and giving. They identify five crucial areas of error related to the prosperity gospel movement. Health, Wealth, and Happiness challenges readers to rediscover the true gospel of Jesus.
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Over the years however, the message preached in some of the largest churches in the world has changed. A new gospel is being taught today. This new gospel is perplexing””it omits Jesus and neglects the cross. Instead of promising Christ, the gospel promises health and wealth, and offers advice such as: declare to yourself that everything that you touch will prosper, for, in the words of a leading prosperity gospel preacher, "There is a miracle in your mouth”. According to this new gospel, if believers repeat positive confessions, focus their thoughts and generate enough faith, God will release blessings upon their lives. This new gospel claims that God desires and even promises that believers will live a healthy and financially prosperous life.
This is the core message of what is known as the prosperity gospel. This gospel has been given many names, such as the "name it and claim it” gospel, the "blab it and grab it” gospel, the "health and wealth” gospel, the "word of faith” movement, the "gospel of success,” "positive confession theology,” and as this book will refer to it, the "prosperity gospel.” No matter what name is used, the teaching is the same. This egocentric gospel teaches that God wants believers to be materially prosperous in the here-and-now. Robert Tilton, one of the prosperity gospel’s most well-known spokesman, writes,”I believe that it is the will of God for all to prosper because I see it in the word [of God], not because it has worked mightily for someone else. I do not put my eyes on men, but on God who gives me the power to get wealth.”
Without question, the prosperity gospel continues to grown and influence Christians. Fifty of the largest two hundred sixty churches in the United States promote the prosperity gospel. The pastors of some of the largest churches in America proclaim the prosperity gospel, including Kenneth Copeland, T.D. Jakes, Joel Osteen, Frederick Price, Creflo Dollar, Kenneth Hagin Jr., and Eddie Long. Through the internet, television, and radio, the prosperity gospel reaches millions around the world everyday. …”American lifestyles have led African believers to equate Christian faith with wealth”. Influenced by American affluence and prosperity, native preachers readily take up the message of the prosperity gospel. Additionally, American prosperity teachers export their message on television networks such as the Trinity Broadcasting Network, one of the most watched religious stations of the world. … hypocrisy of prosperity gospel….self-centered bent of the prosperity message.
Ex:
Eventually, Quimby claimed to have developed his own clairvoyant hyptnotist. Powers and became a successful hypnotist. Quimby believed that sickness follows a disturbance of the minds; therefore, disease is really mental and the cure is to correct false reasoning or error in the mind. Quimby asserts, "If I believe I am sick, I am sick, for my feelings are my sickness, and my sickness is my belief, and my belief is my mind. Therefore, all disease is in the mind or belief”. … Wallace Wattles: "Whatever may be said in praise of poverty, the fact remains that it is not possible to live a really complete or successful life unless one is rich.” In these New Thought works, one can discern some of the key recurring elements of the prosperity gospel: speaking the right words, invoking a universal law of success with words, and having faith in oneself. …no mention of sin, repentance, or the gospel…
Norman Vincent Peale: The Power of Positive Thinking, Guide to Confident Living, In the Tough-Minded Optimist. (He quotes metaphysical teachers…. Salvation is a self-generated mystical experience with the infinite, which entails channeling the divine influx for personal health, wealth, happiness and success.
The Foundations of the Prosperity Gospel
The prosperity gospel is built upon a quasi-Christian heresy, popular in the late 19th and early 20th century, known as New Thought
Key New Thought thinkers include Emanuel Swedenborg, Phineas Quimby, Ralph Waldo Trine and Norman Vince Peale.
New Thought is marked by a distorted view of God, an elevation of mind over matter, an exalted view of humankind, a focus upon attaining health and wealth, and an unorthodox view of salvation.
Distorted view of God: Jesus as just a prophet. Pantheism. Lack of Trinity. Jesus falsely as an impersonal force or creative energy field. "New Thought” teachers and pastors. Problems with Napoleon Hill, Charles Fillmore. Occultist nature of thoughts.
Problems with these quotes by "New Thought” advocates: "directed toward positive thoughts and success will become a reality” and "visualize what you want and meditate upon the picture, and you will create it in reality”. Problems with Charles Haanel and law of attraction.
An Elevated View of Humankind. Dr. Jones’ and Dr. Woodbridge’s definition of "New Thought”: "a human-centered philosophical asserts that people are intrinsically good, spiritual beings, with the potential for godlike””if not divine””status”.
Dr Jones and Dr. Woodbridge speaks on problem with "New Thought” advocates: "that humans can become gods, there is no mention of sin and redemption within New Thought. Since the proponents of this philosophy neither acknowledge the deity of Jesus not the inherent sinfulness of humanity, redemption is both impossible and unnecessary.” Problems with New Thought advocateS: Ernest Holmes, Walter Felt Evans.
Dr Jones and Dr. Woodbridge: "IF people are essentially gods, then what kind of redemption do they really need? In New Thought there is no place for a sinless Savior who died on the cross in order to have propitiation for sin. Humans can save themselves from their dire circumstances through using the divine energy in the universe. They are, after all, in control of their fate. Problem with Ernest Holmes: "IF we partake of the divine nature we must know the same thing in our lives that God knows is His. I am master of my fate, I am captain of my soul”. "New Thought’s belief in the deification of humans”
A Focus on Health, Wealth [and Happiness]. "New Thought proposes that people become sick because of negative thoughts or an account of the fact that they are not properly attuned to the Infinite [inferior]. People allow disease to enter their bodies, thus giving disease its power. The solution to illness is to think about being health and have faith that the law of attraction will work….mind over matter ”.
Problems with the following quotes by Quimby, Thomas Troward: "send out our Thought for the healing of disease, for the suggestion of good and happy ideas…”
An Elevation of Mind over matter: Definition of "New Thought”: The focus on the mind being the key to success. New Thought: Think a certain way and change reality. Problems with New Thought advocates: Henry Hamblin, Emanuel Swedenborg, Wattles, Napoleon Hill, Robert Collier.
Ex by Dr. Jones and Dr. Woodbride: "think about how devastating this philosophy can be to someone with cancer. According to New Thought, you are the reason you have cancer. According to New Thought, you are the reason you have cancer. You are at fault. You must have done something or thought something to attract cancer to your body. The cure is not found by going to the doctor’s office; rather, it is in your mind. Change your thoughts and the cancer will be removed. If you think in the right thoughts or believe in the universal laws or harness the divine influx. Perhaps you did not have enough faith in the universal laws. In New Thought, you did not have enough faith in the universal laws. In New Thought, there is absolutely no consideration of God. His providence, or His purposes in human suffering and sickness. New Thought promises not only good health with right thinking but also financial prosperity and personal success. Whether the topic is related to health or wealth, the method is the same: control thoughts and success will materialize… In New Thought philosophy, fulfillment is not possible without money. Everything exists in order to assist people in their pursuit of money. How can one attain the use of things? By the proper use of the mind and the exercise of faith. Thoughts will actualize desires in the physical realm. Moreover, Hill says that the main reason people do not achieve wealth is because "many fail to impress Thinking Substance”. By the phrase "Thinking Substance,” Hill refers to the divine. In other words, one has to form clear, mental images of what is desired, whether that is a house, a job, or some form of personal success. This positive thought, then, is the correct method to supernaturally achieve material wealth…Like Hill, Wattles, and Collier, Ernest Holmes contends not only are thoughts critical to acquire success, but also spoken words are of great importance. Thoughts and words are forces that create reality. He writes, "If the word is the way that God creates, it is the right way. If it works for God, shall it not work for us?... All words have as much power as we put into them when we speak. ‘The Word is already in our own mouths.” That word is all that you will ever need to bring happiness, health and success to you… If you want to be healthy and wealthy, then first realize that health and wealth is your rights. Then you must think positive thoughts about your health and wealth. In the New Thought system, the only reason you do not have the health and wealth you desire is because you think incorrectly. Since your thoughts and even your words create reality, simply visualize, believe and speak the right words repeatedly and you will see your circumstances change”.

An Unorthodox View of Salvation: "Denying the historic orthodox doctrine of salvation by faith…Furthermore, according to New Thought, religion is not redemption from sin but simply the process of learning to love one’s neighbor…rejects the uniqueness of Jesus as the only way to salvation…Trine argues that all religions possess the truth and that we must find oneness with the Infinite. The end result is that all religions are the same as they afford man the opportunity to discover the Infinite. According to New Thought, true religion will be attractive to all and repulsive to none. The gospel of New Thought is acceptable to everyone because it omits sin ad each person defines the gospel for him or herself. In Summary, for New Thought, salvation is not placing one’s faith in Jesus Christ, the eternal Son of God, who died for the sins of humankind on the cross. Rather, salvation is a self-generated mystical experience with the Infinite, which entails channeling the divine influx for personal health, wealth and happiness and success…experience of personalities”
Similarities with Hinduism, Oriental philosophy, the occult, a general self-centered pagan approach to life.
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New Thought teaches that the key to health and wealth acquisition is thinking, visualizing, and speaking the right words.
New Thought ideas are often taught using biblical words and are justified by distorting Scripture.
The Teachings of the Prosperity Gospel
Key historical figures in the prosperity gospel movement include EW Kenyon and Kenneth Hagin.
Many contemporary prosperity gospel teachers are associated with the Word of Faith organization and/or Trinity Broadcasting Network (TBN).
The prosperity gospel is a broad movement, and there are many differences between the doctrines espoused by various prosperity gospel advocates.
Like New Thought, the prosperity gospel movement is marked by several commonalities, including a distorted view of God, an elevation of mind over matter, an exalted view of people, a focus on attaining health and wealth, and an unorthodox view of salvation.
Joel Osteen is an example of contemporary soft advocate of the prosperity gospel.
The Errors of the Prosperity Gospel
The Prosperity Gospel distorts the true gospel in that it does not point people toward Christ but rather focuses on the attainment of human desires (happiness).
Prosperity gospel teachers misinterpret the Abrahamic covenant to be a promise of health and wealth for Christians who are obedient to God.
Prosperity gospel advocates teach that the death of Christ results in financial and physical well-being for Christians.
Common passages that are appealed to and misinterpreted in order to endorse the prosperity message are Ecc 11:1; Mark 10:30; 2 Cor 9:6; and 3 John 2.
A foundational reason why the prosperity gospel is off base is its fault view of the relationship between God and people.
(Translation used isn't as good. Excellent book, however. ) The OLD KJV (Textus REceptus) is a blessing! Enjoy your days, Pastor and Mrs Stanley! I hope all is going well! You have been such a blessing for many years! I want to give back some to you!

CORRECTION:
by Dr. David Jones, PHD, Southeastern Baptist Theological Seminary
by Dr Russell Woodridge, PHD, Southeastern Baptist Theological Seminary

THE BIBLICAL TEACHING ON SUFFERING
The prosperity gospel focuses upon the avoidance of suffering, including financial [suffering], mental [suffering], and physical suffering.
Pain and suffering are common among biblical characters, including David, Jesus and Paul.
Suffering is a normative part of the Christian life and, this side of the grave, is likely to increase with maturing faith.
Three main sources of suffering exist in this present world:(1) the curse on the created order, (2) personal sin, and (3) the sins of others. (Ex. JOB; Personal sin is not always the cause)
Considerations for suffering include the following facts: everyone is a sinner, everyone possesses a free will, there is value in suffering, God is acquainted with suffering and God is sovereign.
Why does God exist and what does He control in the world? What is the purpose of suffering and how do I react when I suffer? Many prosperity gospel teachers teach that God is dependent on people in order to act. When you suffer, do you blame God? When suffering comes, do you think that since you have worked hard to obey God, you do not deserve it? Mental and physical suffering: When you start thinking that you control your own future, then you demote God. Such ideas are at the heart of the prosperity gospel. Within prosperity theology, people are the focal point rather than God. According to the prosperity gospel, you are in control of your own destiny; thus suffering is an indication of your failure to utilize divinely designed means of blessing. In contrast, the Bible teaches that suffering is an instrument to make you more like Christ and that God is working all things in your life for HIS purposes (Romans 5:1; 8:16-18)

THE BIBLICAL TEACHING ON WEALTH AND POVERTY

One of the best defenses against the teachings of the prosperity gospel is a holistic understanding of scriptural teaching on wealth and poverty.

God created people with material needs, as well as both the desire and the ability to meet those needs

The Old Testament economic laws are built upon the ideals of laboring and resting, as well as preventing God’s people from wealth and poverty related sins.

Jesus gave no systematic, detailed economic plan; rather, in the gospels, His example and teachings on wealth and poverty are wideranging and their spiritual impact is what is usually emphasized.

There is a nonrequisite connection between material wealth/poverty and spiritual wealth/poverty.
What do I deserve in life? According to the prosperity gospel, you are entitled to a good life that is marked by good health, beneficial relationship, an abundance of resources and overall success. But is this really true? The bible teaches that if we have food and clothing, we should be content(1 Timothy 6:8)””anything beyond this is pure grace.

Why did God save me? Did God save you because HE needs you on His team? Did God save you so that you could be famous and wealth? Did God save you so that you can fulfill all of your dreams? (i.e. American dream) No. God saved you on account of his great love for you. God saved you so that you might glorify Him forever and so that He might display his grace for all eternity (see Isaiah 43:25; Eph 2:4-10) We were rescued to glorify God and do good works. We did not deserve or earn salvation and this fact alone ought to humble us and cause us to express our gratitude toward God. A major problem with prosperity gospel teaching is that people are encouraged to think too highly of themselves (see Romans 12:3)

THE BIBLICAL TEACHING ON GIVING
Reasons for Christians’ giving include obedience, to demonstrate love, to bring glory to God, because it is a result of the gospel, and because it results in reward.
Contrary to the prosperity gospel, the biblical emphasis is not on present physical rewards for giving but on future spiritual rewards.
Evangelicals disagree about the concept of tithing, but all agree that generous giving is a biblical mandate.
Christians ought to faithfully give to the local church, other Christian organizations, and directly to those who are in need.

Christian nonprofit organizations such as the Evangelical Council for Financial Accountability and Wall Watchers serve as resources to get information about reputable Christian charities and organizations. www.ministrywatch.com or www.ecfa.org.

Why do I give to God? What is your motivation to give to the church, to Christian charities and to those in need? Cheerful heart or do you expect God to pay you back for your generosity? Do you give to please God, who has given you everything or do you give in order to see if God will come through to for you? Do you give out of guilt and obligation, or do you give out of love? If you give to God in order to get something from Him, then you have adopted a framework similar to that of the prosperity gospel. Such a rationale for giving sets one up for failure and short-circuits the true motivation for giving””grace.

OBJECTIONS AND REPLIES
Objection: How can the prosperity gospel be false if so many people follow it? Reply. Ex. 16th century Europeans believe that Earth was the center of the universe…Both history and other religions demonstrate that millions of people can be deceived and follow a lie.

Objection: But most prosperity gospel teachers seem sincere, and it seems that they genuinely want to help people. Reply: Prosperity teachers may be sincere, yet they can be sincerely wrong. It is possible to be passionate about an issue or problem, but to offer the wrong solution. Sincerity and passion cannot be the standard for evaluating the truth.

Objection: Everyone does not agree on everything in the Bible. Reply: Prosperity theology deserves a place in the church. AS far as the claim that Christians do not agree on everything in the bible, this is a true statement, but it misses the point. As we have documented in chapters 2 and 3, prosperity gospel teachers promote false teaching about fundamental beliefs such as who God is, the sinfulness and abilities of people, and the way of salvation. These are not insignificant issues. In fact these are core beliefs that with lead to God and to salvation or away from God and to condemnation. The prosperity gospel is not a harmless movement that is slightly off; rather it is a dangerous movement that has eternal consequences.

Objection: This verse supports the prosperity gospel. Reply: prosperity teachers use a wide variety of verses to support their teachings. [Read the bible in the context of things] The Bible contains many verses that declare God’s blessings toward us and we should rejoice at this. God blesses us in order to meet needs and enable us to give generously. The book of Proverbs teaches that hard, diligent work can lead to prosperity, but the prosperity gospel leads to idolatry: people worship God’s blessings instead of God Himself.
Objection: I’ve given money to prosperity gospel ministries and I’ve seen results. Reply: If there has been a restoration of health or an improvement in someone’s financial situation, it is appropriate to rejoice. Roman 12:15. Yet, to correlate sending money to a prosperity gospel ministry with God’s blessing is faulty. EXPERIENCES MUST BE judged by Scripture. Feelings and results cannot be the arbiter of truth. Just because something supposedly works does not mean that it is true. Christians have a responsibility to evaluate the means as well as the end. In other words, believers must discern if the end was reached in accordance with Scripture.

The goal of this book is to inform readers about the prosperity gospel, including its history, theology, and errors as well as to give biblical teaching on wealth, poverty, suffering and giving. The prosperity gospel is a false gospel that contains false promises, promotes self-exaltation, and ultimately does not satisfy. It is our hope and prayer that the Lord will use this book to draw people away from the prosperity gospel

I think there is a danger in adopting a theology based upon observation of other men's experience. To say,"It is not God's will to heal all sickness because I know this or that person that died of an illness." does not, to me, speak at all to what scripture teaches us.

It is obvious that every one of us is going to die unless we are alive when Christ returns. Our bodies are corrupted as a result of sin. Our salvation is not yet totally complete. Our spirits have be en perfected forever, but our bodies have yet to be glorified. So, we fight a constant physical battle with sickness and disease, and will until the end, whatever that looks like.

It is also obvious to me that Christ's atonement included physical healing as witnessed by Isaiah 53 and Matthew 8. Jesus also said that He Came to do the will of the Father and proceeded to heal "all that were sick".

So I believe healing is for all, but we cannot, obviously, continue to be healed in perpetuity our else we would never die. There is no conflict here, just reality. Healing is for all, yet healing will not prevent the sentence of death.

But we also know that whatever we receive from God is received by faith. Salvation itself is through faith. Yet not a single one of us has faith perfected in us. My grandfather was a man who was brought up under Parham's ministry and believed a person who trusted in God should not look to the arm of flesh (doctors) but rather trust in God. He received miraculous healing on his own body many times. At 84 he developed prostate cancer. We believed God for his healing until he decided he did not want to fight any more but rather to be with the Lord. at that point, we did not believe any longer for healing. But no one would chide him for a lack of faith.

We have to be careful that we don't talk past one another on this issue. We have to realize that differing theological views will lead is to some radically different conclusions. If we see sovereignty as meaning that absolutely all events are a direct result of God's will then we will never see healing ad His perfect will in all cases, for experience will then be the reformation of His will. If we experience it, it had to be His will add He governs all events. But if we see sovereignty as Good being above and over all, but not necessarily controlling all events, that is to say He has provided some things that we may or may not depending on our choices, then we may more easily believe that healing can be His perfect will, yet we may not experience it all of the time. I guess I fall in the latter camp.

But even then, it is not so simple as having enough faith ore not having enough faith. For example, if you fail to take care of your body, fail to exercise, and eat junk food, no amount of "faith" will counteract your own choices effect on your body.

If I am healed, praise God. If not, I do not believe it was God's doing. Yet I continue to trust Him, confident in His love for me and my relationship with Him. On the meantime I will pray for wisdom that I might know why I game not received yet what I believe He had provided.

As always Scripturally spot on Travis!

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I have not read it yet, but has any one read A.B Simpsons writings on healing ? For those whom have what where your thoughts ?

"It is also obvious to me that Christ's atonement included physical healing as witnessed by Isaiah 53 and Matthew 8. Jesus also said that He Came to do the will of the Father and proceeded to heal "all that were sick".

So I believe healing is for all, but we cannot, obviously, continue to be healed in perpetuity our else we would never die. There is no conflict here, just reality. Healing is for all, yet healing will not prevent the sentence of death.

But we also know that whatever we receive from God is received by faith."

There are many Christians that reject what the "faith teachers" are teaching concerning healing, so they have developed the unscriptural belief that it doesn't require faith to be healed. Yet even Jesus could not heal many in a certain city because of the unbelief of the people.

Many Christians are not being healed because they are basing what they believe concerning healing on their own experience and what their denomination is teaching them. If a Christian believes that healing is not for today, then it will be done unto him according to his faith. When you fill your heart and your mouth with the Word of God concerning healing then you will have faith to be healed.

There are many reasons why Christians are not being healed, but God is indeed sovereign, so we cannot assume as to why some Christians are not being healed even though they seem to be believing God for their healing.

Healing is not only in the atonement, but gifts of healing have been given to the Church. The sick are instructed to call for the elders of the Church so that they can receive healing. There is a reason why the Word of God says that believers shall lay hands on the sick and they shall recover.

I will bless the Lord, O my soul, and all that is within me. He forgives me for all of my iniquities, and heals me of all of my diseases.

Mike

I have not read it yet, but has any one read A.B Simpsons writings on healing ? For those whom have what where your thoughts ?

The Gospel of Healing - A. B. Simpson
https://archive.org/details/TheGospelOfHealing

"Other times God will instill faith into a persons heart to believe for their healing or even someone else's healing and it will happen. But then in other cases it doesn't happen and we just don't know why."

james 5 ;14 Is any sick among you? let him call for the elders of the church; and let them pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord:

15 And the prayer of faith shall save the sick, and the Lord shall raise him up; and if he have committed sins, they shall be forgiven him.

Luke 11;10 For every one that asketh receiveth; and he that seeketh findeth; and to him that knocketh it shall be opened.

11 If a son shall ask bread of any of you that is a father, will he give him a stone? or if he ask a fish, will he for a fish give him a serpent?

12 Or if he shall ask an egg, will he offer him a scorpion?

13 If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children: how much more shall your heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to them that ask him?

.......so I am GUARANTEED healing.It is a benefit of belonging to God.If I remain infirmed,something is wrong.
Really,really wrong.So I must,as Wigglesworth showcased,find out,throught the HS what the roadblock is,and crush it.

Since peter(full of the HS) could say so boldly,without any reserve the prayer of faith shall save the sick,and heal them,......what is the "problem" today?

It is none other that inemic christians,walking not in power,but a belief that somehow (the grasshopper report)we are up against an enemy that is overpowering.
Logic replaces faith.The intimidation of the enemy that somehow God just does not,bless his heart,see that HE really did not defeat the power of the enemy.

I can boldly tell you there is NEVER a time when we pray for the sick (properly) that that thing from hell is not routed,removed,and defeated.....EVERY SINGLE TIME!!!!

WE do not know what faith is.

Faith says "when I pray,the enemy from hell,sickness,WILL LEAVE. Healing WILL come,and my God Jesus will get the glory"
The possibility that the sickness stays is not even part of the equation.THAT IS WHY PETER COULD SAY WHAT HE DID!!!!!

IOW WE ARE THE PROBLEM....ALL OF US.
Jesus said he came to "destroy the work of the enemy"
IOW the work is FINISHED and he left it up to us to enforce the completed job.
Jesus would indicate the sick,demon infested,drug addicted,fatherless children,prematurely dead, dismembered multitudes,etc.Then turn to us and ask the question

why are you allowing this????

I have prayed for people to be healed, and have not seen the result I had hoped for. But I will say without eqivocation that the problem is on my end, not His!

When Jesus was asked for healing, I cannot recall the verse where He said, "No, not you, not today."

The character of God is not ambivalent, not capricious, not subject to mood swings, not in violation of the words of James- "For him who knoweth to do good and doeth it not, to him it is sin."

So I will continue to pray for healing according to the will and promises of God, will seek to live as a righteous man whose prayers avail much, and seek to exercise my faith to strengthen it to the challenges.

And keep my heart filled with a desire to see the will of God accomplished in those with whom he has me to do.

Jesus had his down days too, as is the testimony of Mark Six. It didn't keep Him from seeking places and people who had active faith, and didn't prevent Him from praying for the next one!

Quote: "When Jesus was asked for healing, I cannot recall the verse where He said, "No, not you, not today."

Lovely. I agree, the problem in our days is we cannot differentiate between true faith and movements like WOF and the prosperity - wellness groups.

So again, the problem is on our side. Why spend time with fakes of corrupted theology while you could be focusing on the original as described by the scriptures only? Like a commentator busy with analysing the counterfeits, yet remaining unconvinced regarding the validity of Jesus promises for us, today.

The problem here is unsufficient ability to differentiate and unsufficient faith to believe Jesus.

One thing that marks the healings of Jesus is the absence of the formula. He did what He saw the Father doing, and apparently the Father was doing a lot of different things!

I am with the guy who cried out, "I believe, help my unbelief!"

My experience with "Word of Faith" people is arrogance followed by logical excuses. I am more interested in humility followed by power, and more humility.

"So, He may choose to let me go my whole life without a physical healing that I want just to bring me to a place I need to be. Can we submit to His loving hand and allow Him to prepare us for His Son? Do I want Him more than something physical? And it can't be talk, it must be in demonstration. He knows if what we are doing is from our heart or not. "

Man,do you have any kids?

Well,we are God's children.Would you put a disease on your kid to make a point,or to punish him?

We are guaranteed devine health.

How do you know that?
1 Peter 2:24
Who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness: by whose stripes ye were healed.

luke 11;10 For every one that asketh receiveth; and he that seeketh findeth; and to him that knocketh it shall be opened.

11 If a son shall ask bread of any of you that is a father, will he give him a stone? or if he ask a fish, will he for a fish give him a serpent?

12 Or if he shall ask an egg, will he offer him a scorpion?

13 If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children: how much more shall your heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to them that ask him?

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One thing that marks the healings of Jesus is the absence of the formula.
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This should be shouted from the housetops!

The most important thing is that God is more interested in our walk with him then anything else. Health is wonderful and if God chooses to afflict us one must learn from Him how he wants us to deal with it although James 5 teaches us one should call for the elders for anointing of oil.

Seems to me one is placing healing on a level that distracts us from a proper perception of God. I trust God for my health and have been richly blessed although he has not called a halt to the ageing process! We must be careful that we do not imbibe an entitlement mentality regarding the gifts and blessings from God just because we have accepted his plan of salvation. He will continue to chastise us, afflict us - using our health, sometimes - to perfect us.

My opinion.

There was much truth in the "Word of Faith" movement concerning faith and healing, but there was also a lot of error mixed in with it. So over the years as the Holy Spirit taught me concerning healing, I simply took hold of that which was of God and according to the Word and discarded the rest.

We are going to need faith for everything in the coming days, because we will have to walk by faith and not by sight just to survive. There will come a time when we won't be able to rely on doctors or the financial institutions of this world.

I agree with what many of you are saying that "faith is not a formula." That was one of the errors of many faith teachers that they taught a formula instead of a living relationship with Christ, who is our healer, and the one who meets all of our needs.

I don't like the term "name it and claim it", for all of the promises of God are yes and Amen in Christ. The believer should appropriate or lay claim to the promises of God, but this is not done through some legalistic formula. If we are abiding in Christ and His Word is living in us, then the Word is clear that we can ask what we will and it shall be done unto us. How can God give us a blank check like that? Those that are abiding in Christ are those that are seeking first the Kingdom of God, and whatever they ask will be in line with the Word and the will of God. Those that are not abiding in Christ will many times be seeking things outside of the will of God.

The truth is that everything that we need in this life, spiritually, mentalally, and physically, is already in Christ. We are in Christ, and the riches of Christ are available for us. A man can live with just the bare necessities of life, but if he is in Christ, and he knows that Christ is living in Him, then he is a rich man. The Lord has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in heavenly places in Christ.

If we are obeying the commandments of Jesus, we will cease from seeking God selfishly, and we will love God first, and love our neighbor second, and allow Christ to live His life through us.

Mike

I think it is important that we use scripture to interpret scripture. Many say that Isaiah 53 regrets to spiritual healing, but Matthew's commentary shows clearly that the atonement clearly includes physical healing as well as salvation. And, while it is true that not all believers who are sick receive healing, that is not a commentary upon the meaning of the word of God, but rather a commentary upon us as people. Just because the WOF movement has misapplied some scripture and gone into a ditch in some areas, that does not mean that the opposite ditch is truth. We do receive from God by faith. God's will doors not automatically come to pass in our life simply because we are born again. For example, God may want me to go to a certain city and preach, but if I don't obey, Good does not supernaturally place me in that city and force me to speak. Likewise, healing may be provided, but if I don't receive it by faith, it won't happen barring the operation of a gift of the spirit. And, apart from a word of knowledge, I cannot know why you may not receive healing, so how can I be critical or judgemental.

The main proponents and teachers of healing as described by Psalm1 and others here still have physical issues and sometimes very serious ones.

So if the main proponents of this view of healing who know the most about it still can't always heal themselves or persons they pray for, how can anyone else expect to do so?

In other words it is a great theory and perhaps the theory may be true but if as a practical matter it just isn't possible to have that much faith or whatever, then what good is the theory?

I have heard teachers say that if you just have enough faith you could walk on water. But I am 99% certain that if you lined up all the Christians on earth none could walk on water regardless of their faith unless the water is frozen of course.

I used to believe just like psalm1 and others and listened to tons of teaching by Andrew wommack (who I really like) and bill Johnson etc but in my experience and those who followed the same teachings with me was that it just didn't work as a practical matter.

Now you might say that it was because I didn't have enough faith or that my understanding was not just right, but that just proves my point. I know of no one who is at that level.

That being said, like I said before I do believe in taking authority and commanding sickness to leave. To me that is just a better and more effective way to pray.

AbideinHim,

"There was much truth in the "Word of Faith" movement concerning faith and healing, but there was also a lot of error mixed in with it."

Can you share some of the truths you gleaned from the movement?

"It is not so much that the atonement includes physical healing, but that it is available from the Living God. Is there anything too hard for Him?"

Brother, when you make a statement like this, you are taking away from the work of the cross. The atonement is the basis of all healing.

Mike

"Can you share some of the truths you gleaned from the movement?"

Brother,

After I was saved and baptized in the Holy Spirit in the early 70'S, I spent most of my time in the Word of God. I sat under Word of faith teaching because of their strong emphasis on the Word of God. In the beginning of the faith movement there was not a strong emphasis on getting all you can and canning all that you could get. This happened later when the prosperity teaching took front and center.

The failure of the Word of faith movement was a failure to teach discipleship and the work of the cross in the life of a believer. If our lives fully belong to God, then all that we have comes from Him and is His.

God will bless some with financial prosperity, but His purpose is not so that they can live high on the hog. God's blessing is for the work of the Kingdom.

Mike

Brother, I am not disputing that there was much healing in the Old Testament, but even the scripture that you referred to (Numbers 21:6-9) is referring to the cross.

It is important to understand the atonement of Jesus Christ. Just as He bore our sins, He took our sicknesses and diseases away. The forgiveness of sin and the healing of disease are all in the atonement. God had provision for sin before the cross, but the blood of bulls and goats only covered sin, and pointed to the blood of Jesus that would purge the conscience of all sin.

Mike

Healing

One of the names of God is Jehovah Rapha, "God is my Healer." This comes to us from the Old Testament, and it may be useful to look for a moment at some of the healing teaching there. Jesus was certainly familiar with all of this as He proceeded through the unprecedented series of miracles we find in the New Testament.

When the Israelites were called from Egypt, they were given amazing instructions for cleaning and diet that were designed with God's knowledge of microbes and body chemistry. Animals were designated clean and unclean, washing water was to be running as a stream, menstruating women were off limits to the germ infested male equipment I do not wish to discuss.

The insanely filthy practices of the Egyptians were to be totally left behind, God's promise to Moses and the people was that none of their diseases would be on the Israelites as they left the land and the Egyptian culture. This was the context of Jehovah Rapha, that healing would come through obedience to the principles of living above personal and community pollution.

Yet there were a few other incidents of note in the realm of healing unrelated to the ceremonial practices. One was the healing of Naaman the Syrian King's General who was forced to humble himself to receive healing at the command of Elisha. A great story for some healing meditation, with the connected story of greedy Gehazi being struck with leprosy also at the word of Elisha.

Another is the story of King Hezekiah who was given 15 additional years to live when he whined about his illness. He was healed- but unable to be grateful for the blessing. More good instruction about healing from the Word!

And my last example is Asa. He was not healed, but the story in II Chronicles suggests that his pride blocked healing he may have received for the "disease in his feet." Having started well in his reign, he was distracted and departed from his faith, embittered against God, and sought help only from human physicians. His healing, coupled to a humble return to God, was never to be.

I must agree with other wisdom in this thread that healing cannot be a primary goal in our pursuit of the things of God. We see examples of healing where there is gratitude and rejoicing, and others where there is none of that. I have seen many come for healing prayer who are unwilling to repent of disease causing lifestyles. Hard to get enthusiastic praying for people like that. "Seek ye first the Kingdom of God..."

Yet I see man created to live in health and physical comfort. I have studied the physiology of the immune system and other disease fighting biological systems that help us live in health and relative comfort. I am in awe at the brilliance of the human body and it's ability to survive and thrive!

If we would adhere to the teaching of the scriptures, I expect we would all enjoy much better health and be in much less need of healing! Yet we serve a loving and compassionate God who has added to our natural resources a line into His supernatural resources- even commanding us to ask for it.

May our hearts remain humble enough to seek Him for miraculous healing whenever we come to those places where the burden inside cries out, and the words form on our lips- "Be healed in the Name of Jesus!"

He is the healer.

"Be healed in the Name of Jesus!"

He is the healer.

Amen.

Why use more words than that.

I used to believe just like psalm1 and others and listened to tons of teaching by Andrew wommack (who I really like) and bill Johnson etc but in my experience and those who followed the same teachings with me was that it just didn't work as a practical matter.

Now you might say that it was because I didn't have enough faith or that my understanding was not just right, but that just proves my point. I know of no one who is at that level.

That being said, like I said before I do believe in taking authority and commanding sickness to leave. To me that is just a better and more effective way to pray.

TMK, Interestingly enough, I could tell that you had listened to a lot of Wommack by your posts over the last couple of years. Healing, though provided in the atonement, is not on the same level as salvation. I can be saved and sick, I can die, and I will go to be with the Lord. Sickness is not a mark of a lack of spirituality or that there is something wrong with your life. It is surely not something that will keep you out of heaven. But healing is provided for us.

Matthew 15 and Mark 7 both indicate that healing is for the children, yet those who will put faith in God may also receive. I have seen God heal believers, and I have seen God heal unbelievers as believers prayed for them and ministered to them. It was a great testimony to that unbeliever and I believe it can be what brings them to Christ. Jesus asked the Pharisees which was easier, to SAY thy sins be forgiven thee or to SAY take up thy bed and walk. Since forgiveness is not physically evident, but healing must be physically evident, it is actually easier to SAY thy sins be forgiven thee. But, so that they would be forced to admit that He had power to forgive sins he told the man to rise, take up his bed, and walk.

I have seen people, including myself at one time, downcast because they thought they had been believing God and the healing had not come to pass. But there is a perseverance in faith. I simply walked on through life, believing that God's word was true, and my back problems have faded. I used to visit a chiropractor on an almost monthly basis. I have not been back in 4 or 5 years. It was not instant, but it was ultimate. We need to keep it in perspective. Healing is for us. Healing is provided in the atonement. Yet we are not perfect in our faith. We grow in our faith, in our knowledge of the word day by day.

And, while it is true that not all believers who are sick receive healing, that is not a commentary upon the meaning of the word of God, but rather a commentary upon us as people.

I don't believe that. That is not necessarily the case. I think you mean "negative" commentary, not just commentary. It does not have to be a negative commentary upon us as a people. It was not a negative commentary upon Job that his family was destroyed, his possessions stolen, his family killed and that he was stricken with disease.

We should be very careful as a people not to judge those who have calamity in their lives. Maybe these calamities are for the church to learn compassion and mercy and how to comfort and pray. In God's mind, there could be a million reasons. Suffering and sickness are tools in God's hands, but we (understandably) want to run from them as fast as we can.

Just-in: What I meant was that we often use circumstance to interpret scripture. Such as, "Well, it must not be God's will to heal all or to heal every time since we do not see all healed." I would say that this is not a commentary on the word of God (that is not the measure by which we should interpret scripture), but rather that is a commentary on the fact that we, as imperfect people, do not always receive what God has provided for us. By analogy, God does not will that any perish, but that all come to repentance. Yet, millions die each year lost and will perish. But this does not mean that God saves some and refuses others. It simply means that not all receive the salvation that has been provided for them. Job was pre-atonement. So, he did not have the atoning sacrifice of Jesus Christ to look to. We can learn much from Job, but I am not sure his experience is applicable to this particular point.

I do agree with you. Many have had a very judgmental attitude toward those who are afflicted with illness, disease, etc. Among those who have fallen into a ditch, there has often been full scale condemnation of someone because their "faith was not complete". But this does not reflect the attitude of Christ. For example, he told the disciples that they could not cast out the demon because of their unbelief. It was a truth, and it was a correction, but it was not condemnation. Rather, it was a teaching tool. If you want to develop your faith to the level that you can cast this one out, you need to be in much prayer and fasting. There is a faith that comes from relationship with God through prayer, fasting, and devotion to His word that we must labor to develop. It is laboring to enter into the rest of faith. There is not condemnation in a school boy being in the 5th grade and not yet understanding calculus. But that school boy should be mastering long division and hopefully beginning to learn Algebra. We are where we are, but we should be progressing. That is the growth process of a believer.

I do not agree that sickness and disease are tools in God's hands. But this goes back to my original post in this thread. What you believe about the sovereignty and working of God will determine where you fall on this issue. Sickness is a result of sin just as temptation to evil is a result of sin. Corruption of our minds and corruption of our bodies are both effects of sin. Of course I am speaking here of Adam's transgression, not of a person's own individual sins. Jesus came to do the will of the father and proceeded to heal all that were sick. Not once to we find Jesus using sickness or disease as a tool in the life of a believer. The only times that we see sickness, disease, or death coming at the hand of God it was in judgement of sinners, not in training of believers. However, I do know very dear and precious believers who have a wonderful walk with God who disagree with me as I know you do as well. And, I love them dearly as they do me as well, and we do not become angry with one another over the issue. But, I believe it cannot be borne out scripturally that God uses sickness and disease as a tool in the life of a believer. I have never seen one scriptural precedent for it.

I do not know, and I don't think anyone does, all of the reasons why we do not always receive healing. I do know that we cannot thwart our ultimate appointment with death by believing for healing. Our bodies, because of corruption, will ultimately fail us. So again, who has room to condemn? Not I for sure!