Menu

Debate on Nonresistance versus Just War Theory

S
sermonindex


On Friday, March 28, 2014, David Bercot and Dean Taylor will be participating in a debate/panel discussion on the topic of "Should Christians Participate in War?” The event will be held between 7:00 ”“ 9:00 p.m. at historic Faneuil Hall in downtown Boston. David Bercot and Dean Taylor will be presenting the case for nonresistance. Representing the Just War position will be Peter Kreeft and J. Daryl Charles. Drs. Kreeft and Charles are both university professors who have written numerous books on theology and Christian ethics.

If you would like to listen to the debate/panel live, you can call in on the conference line.
The primary call-in number is: +1 (646) 307-1717
Access Code When Prompted: 189-747-580

If the primary call-in phone line is filled, please try to dial in the overflow call-in number:
Overflow Call-in Number: +1 (712) 432-0070
Access Code When Prompted: 9991#

The debate is being sponsored by Followers of the Way, a Kingdom church in Boston. The moderator of the debate/panel discussion will be Finny Kuravilla. Here is the announcement from the Followers of the Way website:

Upcoming event -- Debate on "Should Christians Fight?” Friday, March 28, 2014 (7-9 pm)

On Friday, March 28, we are sponsoring a debate on the question, "Should Christians Fight?" in historic Faneuil Hall in downtown Boston. There is no charge for admission. However you are encouraged to arrive 15 minutes early in case seating reaches capacity; there will be no overflow room.

Speaking in favor of Christians engaging in just war will be:

Peter Kreeft (Ph.D. Fordham University) is professor of philosophy at Boston College. He is the author of over 67 books on philosophy, theology and Christian apologetics. A gifted thinker and speaker, he speaks at universities and churches all over the world. He draws inspiration from influential figures such as Socrates, Thomas Aquinas, and C. S. Lewis. His books include Making Sense Out of Suffering (Servant Books, 1986), Socrates Meets Jesus (InterVarsity Press, 1987), and a Handbook of Christian Apologetics (InterVarsity Press, 1994).
J. Daryl Charles (Ph.D., Westminster Theological Seminary) teaches in the Honors Program at Berry. He has written 14 books on ethics, Christian engagement in the public square, and just war. He is widely regarded as a leading authority on the Christian just war tradition. His books include Between Pacifism and Jihad (InterVarsity Press Academic, 2005), War, Peace, and Christianity (Crossway, 2010), and The Just War Tradition (Intercollegiate Studies, 2012), and America's Wars (forthcoming).

Speaking against Christians in war will be:

David Bercot is an attorney (J.D., Baylor University), author, and speaker. He has numerous books on the subject of the early church, where he emphasizes the simplicity of biblical doctrine and early (pre-325 AD) Christian teaching over what he would call the complex and compromised body of theological understandings built up over the centuries that have come to be thought of as orthodoxy. His most well known books are Will the Real Heretics Please Stand Up? (Scroll Publishing, 1989), and A Dictionary of Early Christian Beliefs (Hendrickson, 1998).
Dean Taylor and his wife Tania were both in the U. S. Army when they realized that, as committed Christians, they had to come to grip with Jesus' teachings in the Sermon on the Mount on loving one's enemies. They ultimately left the Army in a new and sincere quest for truth, determined to follow Jesus Christ under the banner "no compromise.” Mr. Taylor is a widely sought speaker who regularly addresses the question, "What if Jesus really meant every word He said?” His best known book is A Change of Allegiance (Radical Reformation, 2008).

Faneuil Hall is a very short walk from the State Street or Government Center subway stops (blue line and green line, respectively). For more information, please write to:
info@followers-of-the-way.org

S
sermonindex


If you would like to listen to the debate/panel live, you can call in on the conference line.
The primary call-in number is: (646) 307-1717
Access Code When Prompted: 189-747-580

If the primary call-in phone line is filled, please try to dial in the overflow call-in number:
Overflow Call-in Number: (712) 432-0070
Access Code When Prompted: 9991#

P
proudpapa

Thank you for posting this, I am very interested in listening to this.

S
sermonindex

I thought the only war a Christian was called to was a spiritual war.

A Christian just war? That sounds like an oxymoron.

Ah but whart do I know?

Blaine

S
sermonindex

Bearmaster,

"Just" must be short for "justified" as in self-justified.

What part of "For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places", do we not understand?

Or

"(For the weapons of our warfare are not carnal, but mighty through God to the pulling down of strong holds;)"

"Just war", comes from the RCC via Augustine.

No surprise that Kreeft is defending Just War. The RCC has murdered millions under the cloak of Just War.

M
mama27

Is this EST or CST?

S
sermonindex

No surprise that Kreeft is defending Just War. The RCC has murdered millions under the cloak of Just War.

Peter Kreeft is a highly respected wolf in sheep's clothing.

M
MaryJane

Greetings

I just wonder who gets to decide what "war" is justified and what ones are not? If you take up arms and go to war with another country are you really following GOD or just following after men?

God bless
mj

S
sermonindex

The Pope, of course, decides. Didn't you know he is the Vicar of Christ on earth? Thilly wabbit.

:-)

P
proudpapa

RE: ///No surprise that Kreeft is defending Just War. The RCC has murdered millions under the cloak of Just War///

I had never heard of Kreeft, good point, Kreeft is a Calvinist whom has converted to Catholicism.

S
sermonindex

Is this EST or CST?

I am almost certain it is EST. Let us pray for Dean Taylor and David Bercot that the Lord will give them great wisdom to answer from Scriptures that the little flock of God does not fight rather prays and follows their Lord.

S
sermonindex

Hmm. How can ask this tactfully? Who persecuted the Anabaptist? The Catholics or the Calvinists? For that matter. Who cane up with just war and faught such? The Catholics or the Calvinists?

Blaine

P
proudpapa

Hi Blain

RE : ///Who cane up with just war and faught such? The Catholics or the Calvinists?///

Catholic Augustine whom they both hold in high esteem

S
sermonindex

Who needs a debate on this? We can figure it out right here on SI. We have the "mind of Christ". He is the One that really explains it all to us.

P
proudpapa

Hi just-in

just-in wrote : ///Who needs a debate on this? We can figure it out right here on SI. We have the "mind of Christ". He is the One that really explains it all to us.///

This as is with many issues is not as cut and dry as those on both sides of the issue would have us to believe.

I would have preferred the debate to have been between Bercot, Taylor and bible believing evengelicals whom hold to a just war theory rather than it being against catholics whom hold to a just war theory.

I have Dean Taylors book, it was not convincing to me, When I honestly searched the Scriptures with total openess on the subject I found one Scripture on the subject and it is the Scripture that I hold to on the subject : Luke 3:14
(KJV)

14 And the soldiers likewise demanded of him,(John the Baptist who was preparing the way) saying, And what shall we do? And he said unto them, (((Do violence to no man))), neither accuse any falsely; and be content with your wages.


S
sermonindex

Hey there, proudpapa,

You know, I am using a bit of satire. I certainly would extend to any Christian the freedom to check out any debate they think they have the liberty of watching. It's really none of my business. I was just trying to communicate that the deck is a bit stacked when you have the source of "Just War" (the RCC), backing it up. I think it would be instructive for any Christian who knows their Bible and the Lord, to see how the RCC justifies killing men, women and children. After all, they have done it for centuries and they are not finished, yet. They put a pretty polished spin on it, and you gotta hear it to believe it.

G
ginnyrose

QUOTE:
_____________________________________________________________
Who persecuted the Anabaptist? The Catholics or the Calvinists?
_____________________________________________________________

Both did.

Some say the Reformers were worse then the Catholics.

S
sermonindex

We posted this event also so brethren could be in prayer for David Bercot and Dean Taylor that the Lord would give them words to share from the Scriptures.

S
sermonindex

That is a very good point, Greg. I would like to see Peter Kreeft acknowledge Jesus instead of the Pope and many Catholics who may be watching.

P
proudpapa

RE : ///I was just trying to communicate that the deck is a bit stacked when you have the source of "Just War" (the RCC), backing it up.///

I agree.

I would like to see an open and meek discussion with Bercot,Taylor and that of a True Brother whom might hold a view like what Charles Finney did.
I would like to see a searching of Scriptures on the subject instead of St Augustine/Thomas Aquinas vs Justin Martyr/Origen debate

S
sermonindex

Now, two brothers debating it would be very good.

S
sermonindex

I am ignorant the RCC stance on just war. But mist if those in the Reformed camp seem to advocate just war. Also the right to own fire arms fir self defence. One brother I am aware if would have no compunction about taking a life if his family was in danger. Such brave talk.

But then talk to those Christians or even non Christians that have used a weapon in the line of duty. A military chaplain told me he has councelled those who have taken lives in war. His observation is you lose part pf your soul when you t as me a life. Very hard yo.live with.

Blaine

P
proudpapa

It has started

P
proudpapa

It is not clear enough for me to understand

to much echo, any suggestions

S
sermonindex

Agreed. On primary number. Difficult to listen to. Too much echo.

P
proudpapa

I am on over flow!

I can tell the difference in the Brothers and that of the others though, I believe they are prayed up, I felt some power with out even hearing the words the other no power even though the words are more clear

S
sermonindex

PP can you gear what us being said on overflow.

P
proudpapa

NO, I hope there is a good recording

P
proudpapa

Pray for the Anointing to be on Bercot and Taylor

S
sermonindex

Amen. David Bearcutt stood up to a Federal judge in the Ken Miller case.

S
savannah


I am very well aware that there are those who are called reformed/calvinists who are pro military for christians.

Others who are not known to be reformed/calvinists, but rather known by many other names, who'd fall into the arminian/protestant camps are pro military for christians as well.

Since some have, or would, brand all who'd be called reformed/calvinists as pro military for christians I offer these words from one who would certainly fall under the reformed/calvinist camp. Here are his words:

"Salvation (not swords nor spears, but the salvation of our God) will God appoint for walls and bulwarks." Not only are they not required or needed, but they are most positively forbidden. All our trust and reliance for protection and safety must be in God. He is himself a wall of fire round about his people, and the glory in their midst. In this particular is the church of God manifestly distinguished from all anti-Christian churches or religious organizations. In all ages, worldly religion has relied on worldly support and worldly protections. At this very day there is a mighty howling among the shepherds of anti-Christ, and those religious denominations who have been the principal promoters of the dreadful scenes of carnage which has just swept over our country, desolating what was the fairest portion of the earth, slaughtering hundreds of thousands of our fellow-men, and both at the North and the South are now appealing to the worst passions of men to aid in procuring from the secular powers a law for the suppression of those religious orders which they deem antagonistic to their interests, pleading that their religious establishments are in danger by reason of the Roman Catholics, and all others who will not pander to them. They staining the earth with a crimson tide ask, and even demand that the sword of state shall be drawn for the suppression of those whom they proscribe as heterodox, and for their own defense. They take the sword, rely upon the sword, and with sword shall they perish. But it is not so with the church of the living God.

Not only has the cause of God and his church always been sustained without aid or protection of human governments, but in opposition to all the powers of earth and hell, and always in such a manner as to clearly show that God is himself the strength of Israel, and the Savior thereof in the time of trouble. His name is their strong tower, and in his pavilion where he has hidden them they have perfect safety. We perfectly agree with brother Purington that Christians are forbidden to use carnal weapons for the defense of the kingdom of God, which being "not of this world," cannot be sustained by the power of this world. But the question arises, and perhaps was intended by "E. H.,"Are Christians allowed, by the laws of Christ, to use the sword, or carnal weapons, in any case, or under any circumstances whatever?" The more we have reflected upon this subject, the deeper our convictions have become that the precepts, as well as the spirit of Christ in his saints, forbid it. Every essential requisite for a Christian disqualifies him for carnal warfare. To be a disciple of the meek and lowly Lamb of God, we must have his spirit and temper; and except we have it we cannot be his disciple. While to fit men for carnal warfare they must be bold, daring, defiant, aspiring, and unpitying. To be a disciple of Christ we must love our enemies, do good to them who despitefully use and persecute us; but to be a soldier in carnal warfare, we are forbidden to sympathize with our enemies, or to give them aid or comfort, on pain of penalties provided in the laws of human warfare

The Christian then, to be a soldier in carnal warfare, must abandon the laws of Christ and submit to the military code; must disobey the commands of Christ, and obey the opposite commands of military chieftains. How truly are we told, "No man can serve two masters." How can we possibly obey both when one commands us to kill, and the other forbids us to kill? When one commands us to love, pray for, and do good to our enemies, and the other commands us to fight, rob, harass and destroy them? The example of Christ is given as an infallible guide to all this children, and in that example he went about doing good to all classes of men, friends and foes; healing the sick, feeding the hungry, and showing compassion to all who were in distress; in all his walks he was holy, harmless, undefiled, and separate from sinners, and he commands his disciples to follow him. And he says, "Except a man deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me, he cannot be my disciple."

The recruiting officers of Caesar would reject such men as really and truly follow Christ as unfit for a pace in their army. What do they want of men who love their enemies, or who will not kill, or rob, or spoil their enemies? But while the meek, lowly, loving, sympathizing Christian would be rejected, they would greatly prefer carnal professors and graceless hypocrites, who go in the way of Cain, whose feet are swift to shed blood, and before whose eyes there is no fear of God, and of whom it is said, Misery and destruction are in all their ways. Such are the men for carnal warfare; those who are led by the spirit, temper and example of him who was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth. But those who strictly follow him who came not to destroy mens' lives, but so save them, would only be in the way in earthly warfare.

But it is urged that Christians are to "be subject to the powers that be, and to obey those who are in authority over them." This is very true, but at the same time they are told that there is no power, or authority but that which is of God. Usurpation is not legitimate power, and usurpers have in reality no authority to enjoin on the subjects of Christ's government anything that Christ has forbidden; for Christ is himself the only blessed potentate, the King of kings, and Lord of lords. In everything wherein God has invested kings, governors, rulers or judges of the earth with power or authority over the citizens of the world, the Christian is, by the laws and commandments of Christ, required to honor and obey them, to that extent, but no further. Whether it be right for Christians to obey men rather than God, judge ye. If Caesar commands us to kill, and God commands us, saying, "Thou shalt not kill," which is to be obeyed? Or if rulers of the earth forbid the minsters of Christ, as in the case of Peter and John in Acts 5:29, to preach in the name of Christ, and God has commanded them to preach, is it hard to determine which is the higher power, or which is to be obeyed?

It is said that some Christians have been compelled to take up arms, and to slaughter their fellow men. This may be so; but we do not know of a case in which a Christian, how as conscientiously opposed to carnal warfare, viewing it a violation of the law of Christ, who has made his appeal in solemn prayer to God for deliverance, and has not been delivered. But even if it were so, if the Christians were actuated by the same mind which was evinced by the martyrs of former times, would they not sooner suffer death themselves than yield to violate the law of Christ by killing their fellow men?

Let the church of God take her position as a city set upon a hill, whose light cannot be hidden; and let it be known that come life, or come death, her members cannot be forced to shed the blood, or destroy the property of their fellow men under any circumstances whatever, then we doubt whether the governments of the world would have use for such soldiers as they would make. But should they persist, we might look for a divine interposition, or if brought to the test, God would give us grace to bear all the consequences. it is not strange, as the case now stands, that the governments of the earth should regard the conscientious scruples of Christians as unimportant and trifling. For while nearly all the anti-Christian orders of religionists not only sanction, but absolutely occupy a leading position in all the wars that agitate the world, the church has been slow, very slow indeed, to declare her position and say to the world that she will, under no circumstance, stain her hands with blood. But instead of holding this position, has not the church been faulty in withholding her light upon this subject; and have not, some at least of the members voluntarily entered the field of carnage, or advocated the shedding of blood; and when the matter has been submitted to the voice or vote of the people, have not some, even of the members of the church of God, the professed disciples and followers of the Prince of Peace, given their voice, their vote, and the full measure of their influence for war, to the bitter end? How is this to be reconciled with the command of God to "Follow peace with all men, and holiness, without which no man shall see the Lord?" There are many examples given of Christ and his apostles, and the primitive saints, resisting evil even unto the death, striving against sin, but in all cases refusing the use of carnal weapons. But in what part of the sacred volume have we an account of Paul, applying to Nero for a Major or Brigadier General's commission, or Peter asking for and army contract, or even of the loving John preaching war sermons, and making war speeches to induce the disciples of the Lamb to enter the army? Even if we had such examples left on record, we are forbidden to follow them; for we are only to follow even the apostles as far as they followed Christ. And Christ, when he was reviled, reviled not again; and he has commanded his disciples to "Avenge not themselves; to resist not evil with evil." If smitten on one cheek, to turn the other cheek also to the smiter, and to remember the word of instruction, "Vengeance is mine; I will repay, saith the Lord." If God thus claims the sole right of arbitration and retribution, and if he has as positively forbidden us to avenge ourselves, is it not irreverent and presumptuous for us to usurp the ministration of wrath and vengeance in his stead? Let those who know no God and therefore fear him not indulge their cruel passions; but, Christians forbear! Let not the sun go down on your wrath. Appeal not to the sword, lest by the sword ye perish!

---------------------------------------------------------

I could furnish what others who'd be called reformed/calvinist have written against being pro military for christians, but the above will suffice to show that there are those in that camp who are far from being pro military for christians.

This discussion is archived and closed to new replies. Start a new discussion to carry the subject on.
Archived
1 of 31 posts

Everything we make is available for free because of a generous community of supporters.

Donate