Entertainment vs. Recreation

ZekeO, you are right!

If this thread successfully defines what is proper entertainment or recreation for a Christian, then they have only successfully become religious, creating "rules" to live by, rather than living by His life.

Gorillas are often entertaining to me when I view them in the zoo. People laugh at them and imitate them and are often more entertaining than the gorillas, themselves. However, I am not about to invent a "monkey see, monkey do" religion.

Interesting, how Christians think being a Christian is just a matter of IMITATING behavior, but for the most part they are imitating each other and not Christ.

And as far as imitation goes, the Christian life was never intended to be an attempted "imitation" of the life of Jesus.
Paul clearly explains that our life now is the "manifestation of the life of Jesus in our mortal bodies" (II Cor. 4:10,11).

If it "usually" means "ME" what does it mean the other times?

Some of you guys can't be for real.

You are preaching a religion of self-flagellation.

It is very hard to see what is going on in someone's heart, so then many religionists attempt to label outward things as "sin". There is inward adultery that many may not see outwardly, but God never misses anything.

I could really careless about a ball game, but certainly don't begrudge or judge my brother or sister if they want to go to one.

Remember, many of the religionists of Jesus' time judged Him based on His outward activities of hanging out with drunkards and sinners. What would the church do today if Jesus went into bars to eat with drunkards and talk to them? What would the church think if they saw Jesus by Himself in public with a lady who had already had 5 husbands. Or what would the Church whisper to each other if they saw Jesus with a prostitute or telling a sinner that He was going to come home with him tonight for some leisure and dinner?

Thank you for your replies, MaryJane. I appreciate your thoughtful posts and patience in trying to work through difficult and sometimes controversial topics. May you have a blessed day in the Lord.

by MaryJane

I agree JESUS was willing to meet people where they are but HE never left them there did HE(Praise GOD).

Actually, He did leave many where they chose to stay and He continued on with the will of God. It is not automatic that a man will come to Christ, just because Christ comes to them.

Sadly I have had those in the world who know just enough of the Bible use these truths that JESUS ate with sinners to continue on in their own sin. Its heartbreaking to see the truth twisted in such a way, yes JESUS ate with sinner, yes HE spoke to the woman at the well but HE never lowered HIMSELF down into the sin they were in.

No, but He would not be afraid to lower Himself into their environment. To go where the sinner was rather than having a conference in the Temple and marketing the 3 day conference on billboards, radio and TV to make sure all the sinners came to the Temple to hear the important things He had to say. He was much more than just talk. He personified what it means to be a "Doer of the Word".

I wonder what Christendom would really be like if people truly heeded His voice as He heeded the Father's voice?

I fear that I have probably gotten off topic more then I should have. It does happen from time to time :)

Thank you for sharing here with us.
God bless
mj

Don't worry about getting "off topic". Conversations are like that. They grow ever wider which is a good thing.

Hi TMK,

We just have to remember that condemnation has one source and conviction comes from a wholly different source.

To the Lord we stand or fall and if we were more concerned with pleasing God than men, Christendom would be a very different place.

You are right: "Just because we CAN does not necessarily mean we MUST".

Not all things are expedient or edifying.

1Cor 10:23 All things are lawful for me, but all things are not expedient: all things are lawful for me, but all things edify not.

Rom 14:16 Let not then your good be evil spoken of:

Rom 14:19 Let us therefore follow after the things which make for peace, and things wherewith one may edify another.

Rom 14:22 Hast thou faith? have it to thyself before God. Happy is he that condemneth not himself in that thing which he alloweth.

1Co 6:12 All things are lawful unto me, but all things are not expedient: all things are lawful for me, but I will not be brought under the power of any.

Many people don't realize that much of what you do everyday is spiritual. Loving people, going to work providing for your family, and yes, even relaxing and relating with your family and friends and strangers is spiritual. Jesus relaxed with people and related to them. C'mon people! It is about relationship and loving people and meeting them where they are at (not partaking of their sin. Do I have to even explain that?).

Please read the Gospels again.

Don't compartmentalize your spirituality. Spirituality is being quite normal and taking care of your everyday business, walking in the love of God.

I sure am hoping this thread frees people from self-imposed religious condemnation or condemnation from religionists (Pharisees).

Many people don't realise that much of what you do everyday is spiritual. Loving people, going to work providing for your family, and yes, even relaxing and relating with your family and friends and strangers is spiritual. Jesus relaxed with people and related to them. C'mon people! It is about relationship and loving people and meeting them where they are at (not partaking of their sin. Do I have to even explain that?).

Please read the Gospels again.

Don't compartmentalize your spirituality. Spirituality is being quite normal and taking care of your everyday business, walking in the love of God.

I sure am hoping this thread frees people from self-imposed religious condemnation or condemnation from religionists (Pharisees).

I do believe that in this saying lays the very substance of what will in the end become the separation which makes for the kingdom of else outer darkness.

I have been reading some writings by Dana Roberts. He makes this same argument that everyday events and outcomes are spiritual in their nature. He takes the point so far that I believe he has started hating those who believe in separation from the world and holds such views in contempt to the point of condemning the whole man he is judging.

It is interesting how often the word Pharisee is used by those who argue that having a meal is a spiritual activity, and thereby condemn those who in essence see the meal as nothing more than that which is for the drain.

There are good points being made about being spiritual in everyday things of life. We should not make the mistake of wrongly seperating 'spiritual' from 'secular'. Andrew Kelly also has a point in that this can be used to condone carnality. So the separation should be between spiritual and fleshly (carnal), not spiritual and secular. heydave

I think this is exactly where truth lays Dave. Just-In also made an interesting point one time, perhaps in another thread, when he drew a distinction between that which arises out of the body as attending to worldliness. It was a thread on the question of what is worldliness I think. I have though about his comment a few times and believe it is a very good insight. Worldliness or loving the world seems to mean satisfying the demand of the body as much as anything else. Entertainment falls right into that ball park.

For me at least I think there is another important dissection to make as well. The apostles of Christ tell us in many places to flee from this world and its passions. If you think on this one would have to ask how that is really possible, especially when the very body itself so easily agrees with the world of passions such as gluttony, entertainment, pleasing effects, a need for comforts. Paul the apostle certainly didn't see things naturally. He continuously reminded those he was serving to flee from youthful passions, the passions or lusts of the flesh, the vanity of the natural mind and so on. Yet I doubt that he despised a good meal and pleasant company.

Jesus on the other hand sought out sinners. It was the evidence that He had come to save sinners. When He ate with prostitutes the Lord did not covet them with His eyes, but desired them with His heart. It seems to have had a profound impact on them, as many of them provided the finances for the Lord's ministry. Jesus was preparing His own body for the cross unto death. We are called to walk in the death of the cross unto the kingdom of heaven. There are somethings which the Lord did which few would be advised to do unless they really did know in experience the meaning of the cross. Apart from that, everyday things which seem innocent may be no less a cause of stumbling, than seeking out prostitutes for fellowship.

The thing is, in our "secular life", we are still to be spiritual.

But, I don't divide up my life into secular and spiritual slices since I am called to walk in the spirit at all times and represent Christ every where I go. Did the apostles have a secular and spiritual side? Was Paul secular when mending tents or do you think he was still abiding in Christ.

The one brother had the good verse I was thinking of:

Colossians 3:23
23 And whatsoever ye do, do it heartily, as to the Lord, and not unto men;

Our whole life is now spiritual since we have been joined to His spirit. We are in Him and He is in us, everywhere we go.

Our whole life is now spiritual since we have been joined to His spirit. We are in Him and He is in us, everywhere we go.

I truly think that this saying is too far.

If there is one reality which we can comprehend if we have the stomach to look into it, is the fact that believers can devour other believers.

"But if you bite and devour one another, take care that you are not consumed by one another. But I say, walk by the Spirit, and you will not carry out the desire of the flesh. For the flesh sets its desire against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh; for these are in opposition to one another, so that you may not do the things that you please. But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the Law. Now the deeds of the flesh are evident, which are: immorality, impurity, sensuality, idolatry, sorcery, enmities, strife, jealousy, outbursts of anger, disputes, dissensions, factions, envying, drunkenness, carousing, and things like these, of which I forewarn you, just as I have forewarned you, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.” (Galatians 5:15”“21, NASB95)

The simple fact of unity in our spirits with the life of Christ does nothing for outward reality if we walk in the flesh. The fact that we are called to walk in the Spirit does not mean that we do walk in the Spirit. If walking in the Spirit were an automatic thing, then we would not be called to do it at all. It would simply happen by reason of being born again. I believe that although your emphasis is a little different in that you use the term secular and spiritual, which on the face of it means other than flesh and spirit, the effect of failing to properly differentiate between the flesh and the spirit will mean that we will walk after the flesh and not after the Spirit even in so-called secular activities.

It is precisely by failing to see the need at 'all times' to walk in the Spirit which leads to a belief that all activities, regardless as to their purpose and source of power, amounts to true service of Christ. In that event we end up with a complete lack of distinction between that which is truly Spirit and life and that which is common to all men everywhere. Personally although I can see that this will be perceived as contentious I would go as far as saying that if we assert that a true understanding of what is spiritual activity finds that it is unnecessary to draw any distinctions in a persons life actions then this will in the end lead to a whole-man philosophy, where spiritual or natural are indistinguishable in action or speech. This itself is based on a holistic philosophical understanding of oneness. It is ancient occult thinking. The result of this kind of thinking can be seen in the very way in which believers can devour one another and believe that they are serving God.

I think you are misunderstanding what I am saying, Kelly or perhaps I am not saying it very well. I will think about how to post an answer with more clarity.

I am not perceiving it as contentious at all. It is an opportunity for me to be clearer.

Thank you.

Brother(?) TMK..(or sister?...whats your name?...i'm neil, "Hez"..."Hezekiah Wellington" is a pen name, which I haven't had to use yet)

I finally felt led to enter into this thread, (and I also converse with my beloved sister Mary Jane, who I love in the Lord, and is precious to me....she is very precious to me, as I have seen the Mercy and Grace given to her, through her loving measured words....and at times, I have felt her prayers for me, which I am eternally grateful for)

brother, you wrote, (i'm referencing the OP)

There are a couple of threads that have discussed what type of entertainment might be suitable for true believers.

i'm almost certain you're referring to the "Noah" threads generated...I have to say, I was very disturbed in my soul, when I read this term...."a true Christian"....'wouldn't go see this film'. (i'm paraphrasing the last part, but it was MORE than implied, and I was disturbed and distressed to the core of my soul;

what right does a fellow 'blade of grass' have to pronounce who IS a "true Christian"?....and the person who made this mal statement should KNOW BETTER....that's what REALLY tears at my heart. I kept silent at the time, though it burned within me.

"a true Christian"....I can tell you all this; I am not a "true Christian...oh no. I am a Jew who follows Jesus, who has heard the voice of Messiah, repeating to me, that precious Portion of Scripture from John 1, Red Letters, when Jesus first met Nathanael:

"When Jesus saw Nathanael approaching, he said of him, "Here truly is an Israelite in whom there is no deceit.” John 1:48

"TRULY"...I can think of NO GREATER personal joy, than having Messiah testify about one's self..."in whom there is no deceit".

Oh, its a high bar to consider when Jesus says that to a mere man, mortal, with all of our failings, but I thank you and praise You, my Dear Lord and Messiah.

and please brethren , try not to misuse Paul's writing, "there is no Jew, nor Greek", etc....this is not what Paul meant, who later wrote that he was a "Hebrew of Hebrew, a Pharisee of Pharisee"s, etc. What Paul meant by the "There is no more Jew, nor Greek"...is don't try to claim some "Godly superiority" in being born and raised as a Hebrew, or even IMPLYING 'superiority' because of this fact of my lineage, both physical, and in faith, being raised to read and write Hebrew, being trained in Torah, since a boy.....and the reason, I even register it....is the burning hope and desire that should ONE other Jew read my testimony, That God the Holy Spirit would let them KNOW, it's OKAY to confess Messiah Jesus as Lord and Savior.

That's why I write that: "a Jew who follows Jesus", not to imply "superiority" (God forbid!, as I esteem others above myself) nor to foist "Hebraic Roots teachings" upon my brothers and sisters, teachings i'm not even familiar with, because God has kept me BLISSFULLY unaware of such "teachings", because they lead to a dead end.

I wouldn't go see "Noah", because I read the director VOWED he'd make a film that was SO "anti-Biblical", which to me is SO anti-Christ, that I , in turn, had to make a VOW, I wouldn't spend a NICKEL to see the thing.

Full disclosure, I spent most of my adult life, working in the entertainment industry at a pretty high level, and I noticed that there is this kind of "oh so hip" thing to deny, one is a person of Faith, that one LOVES God, that one LOVES Jesus.

testify to that? You're "uncool"....Good! I never worried much about being "cool"....my heartstance EVEN when I didn't know or follow Messiah Jesus was to be one in "whom there is no deceit".

Now, God in His Mercy, took me OUT of the entertainment industry in 2009, He broke my body, literally, and our Loving Father, Abba God, made certain that resource was provided to me, and I tell you, brethren, I give all my praise and thankfulness to Him, for such tender care, loving care....never to despise it.

Now I await His Calling on my life....I DONT know what this calling is yet....I am waiting on the Lord.

Brother TMK, you wrote:

Another question is this: Is recreation the same as entertainment? For example, if I take a hike in the woods or go fishing because I like to, is that entertainment? At least for me?

I tend to think that God wants us to enjoy his creation. Some do this by camping or other outside activities while others play games like baseball.

Is this wrong? If I do these things am I substituting it for joy? What if I find joy in doing it? Can't certain forms of entertainment or recreation be done as unto The Lord?

beloved brother, as the Lord leads, I don't think its "wrong", unless your heart and the Indwelling Holy Spirit, says it's sin...you KNOW when sin is sin, and a walk thru the woods?

What a blessed occasion to marvel at the Depth of the Mind of God as Creator, as Master Designer, to gaze at a White Oak, with a Shagbark Hickory, next to it....both trees....yes?....but both designed with differences....crucial differences....the "fruit" of the white oak is an acorn, to make flour of crushed acorn, one has to crush the acorns, then strain the tannin of it, before making an acorn cake over fire....you have to strain that tannin of it though....AND if i'm not mistaken to cure leather, one uses tannin....while the shagbark hickory nut , one can eat of hand, ALTHOUGH after cracking the shell, there is not a LOT of meat to the nut, although a mature fertile hickory will kick off a LOT of nuts.

and the very wood of the two trees?....even though both have the highest BTU content for firewood in a typical hardwood forest (such a forest surrounds me, Praise God!!).....both trees are very different...I have actually split, cured and burned, for heat, a big bolt of white oak, that was laying on the ground for five years.....but if you let a shagbark hickory lay on the ground for even one season, its rots very very quickly, and is consumed by many bugs.

in the natural, one would think, that hickory, so hard and tough, would LAST laying on the ground, right?.....not so. Here's the fascinating thing...once it gets cut down,unless you harvest the wood quickly, that is, to saw it into "biscuits", then take your hydraulic ram splitter, to turn it into firewood, and let dry such firewood off the ground.....if you don't do that, right quick?....it rots.."right quick".

after reading what I just wrote, one might say, in an accusatory way, i'm "worshipping the creation".....not so. I worship the Depth and Intricacy of the MIND OF GOD, that can design such a bounty for us, in His Love, that can heat our homes, during the winter months.

so a walk thru the woods, pondering and marveling over the mind of Our Father God, Praise His Holy Name, is not only clean healthy "recreation", but WORSHIP, then work, if you need firewood to heat your home, which I do.

In the Prophets, where man goes off base, is take this wood, and craft "gods" and "idols" as an object of worship. A through study of the Prophets, reveal that the Fury of the LORD is really stoked, when man worships idols, both in Isaiah and Jeremiah are long passages devoted to the sad futility and madness of the "idolmaker"....with one piece of wood, he crafts the statue, with another he bakes his bread, and with another he heats himself........and calls that statue a "god"?!?

with baseball, a wonderful game, full of skill, and measured in seconds and millimeter's....long periods of seeming inactivity, followed by bursts of the highest degree of athletic ability and capability...there is a similar tension. allow to explain....lets say "our team", pulls off a victory in the bottom of the ninth, a walk of home run, or a single hit to the outfield, etc...the whole stadium, just erupts in a joyous shout, right?

What I don't understand is, our Messiah, our Savior, who has provided VICTORY over sin, over the world, victory over death, victory over satan, and over rank wickedness.....we cant even shout for joy with the same passion we would at a ballpark, inside the assemblies?.....when an anointed exhorter, filled with the Holy Ghost, proclaims the GOSPEL, and the Glory of the Lord fills the assemblies, propelling those within, who walk to the altar, walk from death to LIFE....and we cant shout and celebrate with joy and passion?....because maybe its "not in us"....OR we're "afraid" of the reaction of others?!?....or we don't wish to be labeled as "disruptive"?

all I know is, whether in revival, or when God is REALLY moving in Power,and I see a whole bunch of sinners walking to the altar to do business and get right with God, i'll be shouting with JOY!!!......more so than I would be at any ballpark.

I know I been writing and testifying a lot here, but I beg your indulgence, I have a few more things to say; being a father of a son I love with passion and all my heart, has taught me a LOT, about the Heart of God, and how the Lord feels about you, me, all of us.

When he was 7 or 8, and Ted was preaching on the Cross, and God's love for us, I could see those terrible nails being pounded into my boys thin little wrists, and within mere seconds I could hardly see thru my tears, and in a rush, I realized God's love for us, His Only Son, offered as the Last Passover Lamb.........and I was shouting Praises to His Name.....and wondering. "Lord, at Golgotha, did you weep, when they started to crucify Your Son?"......then filled with remorse that my sin impelled God to do this in His Love and Mercy.....or when I had to discipline my son as a boy.....not to discipline him. MORE THAN HE BEAR....just as our Father, wont discipline us, more than we could bear....or how I wait for his phone calls, patient, as he's a young adult, 18....then when he does call, how my heart is filled with joy....is that way with God, as he waits patient for our prayers, or those times, when we just want to talk with Him?

God must love when we talk with Him, share with Him, telling him EVERYTHING.....because when I get those phonecalls from boy, patience, joy, and love fill my heart. How must it be with God? God doesn't "need" anything, He's entirely Sufficient...OBVIOUSLY....but when I finally shut the world down. tamp the flesh down, and get alone with Him, I surely must bring His Heart joy, because He brings me such joy, and blessings.....even though I have fallen short in so many ways.

i'll close now with this confession; I had a terrible horrible day. I am a broken and lonely man, and my family is falling apart, literally, they are scattered across the nation....but everythings a mess. its a public global forum, so its not wise to go into too much detail. My marriage ended in 2004 officially, and being God fearing, I never pursued another "wife"....how could I?

but a day like today, gets so bad, the personal news so terrible, I find myself LONGING to be with the Lord. i'm not talking about suicide, my brothers and sisters, because that is the ultimate selfish SIN...people that do that?....are so self consumed, they never think of the torn up souls of loved ones they leave behind...but on days like this, terrible days and nights, where sleep eludes me, I long to be with the Lord, casting off this tent of flesh, and God willing, joining innumerable worshipers in the New Jerusalem.

so I say, obviously part of following Jesus, who as prophesied in Isaiah, as the "Suffering Servant", is to suffer yourself. I don't mean to whine or be a crybaby, maybe I just your prayers..a whole lot.....at least my family does.

forgive this long post, bless you for reading it, and may God bless and protect all your families, as well as your dear hearts and souls. Grace, Peace and Mercy unto you all in Jesus' Name, neil

Some really good posts. Thank you, Neil for sharing your heart.

I think there is much confusion as Christians attempt to explain what activities one should engage in or not and this is not relegated just to non-Christians, but to Christians as well. It seems if we can define right and wrong activities then we can define someone's spiritual condition. We look from the outside in while Christ looks from the inside out. The true motivations and desires of men are embedded in their hearts. Of course, we think we look from the outside in, but we can only see the external. Nevertheless, that doesn't seem to stop many who persist in categorizing people's spiritual conditions.

A man comes to Jesus (obviously externally oriented) and says, "look at all the great things I have done" (paraphrase) and Jesus says, "I never knew you". He totally bypassed the external, giving no attention to it and basically told the man you have nothing inside yourself towards Me.

Jesus does teach us about fruit coming from bad trees or good trees. But is this fruit found solely in "doings", "works", (externals) which Jesus clearly ignored from this man who appeared before Him in Matt 7, or is this 'fruit', our behavioral expressions (which has its root in the heart)?

More later...

The reality is much simpler than is claimed by some in this thread. There are those who will even turn the word of God upside down in order to make their point. It is complete foolishness and its end will be tears. I wonder how we will stand in that great and terrible day of the Lord when we finally comprehend that we have turned men and women away from a godly life in service to Christ and have instead justified their fleshy conduct and laid waste to their faith with philosophy?

What is being said here in essence is that as long as your heart is 'good' everything will be just fine! Take confidence in your heart then and in the end you will comprehend that it is the inward thing which is evidenced outwardly in words and deeds. So if you are comforted by entertainment you will have to accept that your heart desired entertainment. Then by that measure you will be judged. Otherwise we should stop with the philosophy altogether and accept that the heart is wicked and deceived above all else, who can know it?

I love you too brother, I was thinking that when I was writing that post.....I read your postings, you're a dear man, God love you, neil

What is being said here in essence is that as long as your heart is 'good' everything will be just fine!

I am not saying that and I don't recall specifically reading where anyone else is saying that. And for the record, I am not defending "entertainment" nor villifying it because it is just a word that people are using (it seems) to encompass everything except prayer and fasting.

I am still developing my thesis in this thread, and other brothers and sisters are bringing up good points (that is how the body works) so bear with us.

If in the end, we say that one can participate in anything they want and exhibit whatever behavior they desire, I would think you have a pretty good case against our stance. But, that is not what I am expecting from the Body and their understanding of God's word.

how are we a "peculiar people"?.....reading thru various threads, how would we and do we makes others "envious of so great a salvation"?

I am not saying that and I don't recall specifically reading where anyone else is saying that. And for the record, I am not defending "entertainment" nor villifying it because it is just a word that people are using (it seems) to encompass everything except prayer and fasting.

I am still developing my thesis in this thread, and other brothers and sisters are bringing up good points (that is how the body works) so bear with us.

If in the end, we say that one can participate in anything they want and exhibit whatever behavior they desire, I would think you have a pretty good case against our stance. But, that is not what I am expecting from the Body and their understanding of God's word.

It is very unlikely that anyone would actually say that believers can say what they want and exhibit any behaviour they desire. Yet the reality is that every believer has the power to do precisely that thing. Not only this but the Lord Himself will permit it as well. That is reality. Were it otherwise there would be no discussion and no opinion on anything at all because every believer would be constrained by the Lord and would exhibit sound speech and conduct always.

Moreover if entertainment were in reality just a word then there would be no discussion either. The problem is that entertainment, even when it is innocently prescribed, is a profound distraction to the work of the Church. Paul said that he was convinced that nothing of itself was evil. Yet he cannot have intended that to mean that immorality or hateful speech were of no consequence. The problem lays in us, not in the elements themselves. It is we ourselves who are the problem. Even Satan is not a problem if our hearts are set on things above. In saying this I am saying no more than is common sense to the one who sets their sights on heavenly things. This is not a contention, or an argument or a thesis. It is plain straight forward truth.

Finally whilst no one ever says that which is evil plainly, the evil thing is implicit in the words we use if we do not make a clear and unequivocal meaning in what we say. As no one is going to say 'do as thou wilt shall be the whole law' then that thing becomes implicit when we begin to determine ourselves what is sound and what is unsound.

I ought to say this plainly then you will perhaps understand why I see no purpose in bearing with group think. There are two types of people who lead God's children astray. They are those who have an opinion and express it in a group, which leads to endless compromise. Then there are those who insists that a thing is true and require others to follow it without recognising that others have the power to reject what is said. The former leads to the liberty of opinions and half truths. The latter leads to oppression and weak faith.

So far as I know the only reality which is proven true at all times is when we are contained by the word of God. What I am expecting from the body of Christ is endless opinion and group think. There is no evidence whatsoever that the churches have learned how to deal with these two problems. They are endemic and persistent through every age.

by HezWelling on 2014/4/4 18:41:41

how are we a "peculiar people"?.....reading thru various threads, how would we and do we makes others "envious of so great a salvation"?

I believe that is done by the dynamic functioning and expression of Jesus Christ in and through us.

by amrkelly on 2014/4/4 19:41:36

So far as I know the only reality which is proven true at all times is when we are contained by the word of God. What I am expecting from the body of Christ is endless opinion and group think. There is no evidence whatsoever that the churches have learned how to deal with these two problems. They are endemic and persistent through every age

I am sorry you feel that way. That has not been my experience. My experience is to work things through with brothers until we all come to the mind of the Lord and also, during this time of disagreement to hold each other "close" and pray for one another. Also, it is important to receive those who are weak in the faith. The godly thing to do is maintain unity in the faith while discussing an issue. This is how the Body works, or rather I should say, this is how the Head works in the Body.

When God's people are really one and strong in the Lord, they are able to listen to anything that is presented to the church. Until they are one on an issue, they should continue to pray and search the scriptures (like Bereans) and eventually God will bring the body into unity on that specific subject. Most churches don't operate this way. There is one person that makes the decision whether people have had time to come into agreement or not.

If the church is strong you will not be swayed by every wind that blows because you are rooted and grounded in Christ.

Posting on SI, and waiting and posting and waiting for another piece of the "puzzle" may be slow to some people and I suspect it is a bit unnerving to you Kelly, but this is the environment that we have and we have to be patient to listen to every brother until they have made their full point. Some brothers have a burden and don't know how to share it and it takes them time to develop what they are trying to say.

In our zeal for the Lord we all go through periods of imbalance, it is inevitable. But the important thing is as we go on we need to arrive at the balance. For instance, Church life is important, but it's not everything, family life is important but family life is not all there is. Some people make family life everything and because of that they have no church life or vice-versa. Work is important but you cannot work all the time and not relax. Entertainment is not bad, but it depends on what a person means by entertainment. Chess games may be bad for some people but not others. If someone plays chess and it makes them very angry, it is not really the chess pieces but something in his heart, right?

Please don't take this to the nth degree and put words in my mouth. I am not saying that as long as someone does not lust in their heart, they can view pornography and it will never affect them. I do not believe that.

What I am trying to say is that brothers and sisters are working through issues in this thread as a body so that they can arrive at the truth and a balance and there is nothing wrong with discussing issues like this. Some do not have the patience for this and that is ok, because we have all been given different gifts and callings. Evangelists have no patience sometimes for shepherding, and I understand that. We want to be contained by the Word of God (as you say), but it does not happen automatically and discussing issues while maintaining peace and unity can result in edification for many brothers. So, I encourage you not to expect "endless opinion and group think", because the Head is able to communicate to and through His Body and I am always optimistic that if brothers maintain unity and prayer, they will eventually come into agreement with the Head on a subject. Coming into agreement does not always happen right away and we should not bulldoze over brothers and sisters who still have doubts or questions.

Just-In cut the pretence. We both understand fully that your post is patronising and insolent. I could take you to a dozen of your own posts in which every word you have said above is both contradicted and proven false. The church may well variously arrive at a state of consensus on what amounts to truth, but that consensus is mostly heresy. Unless you have your head buried in a hole somewhere you may have also missed that believers are devouring one another in many places and it is covered by a thin layer of hypocrisy.

The church is apostate in all but a total denial of Christ Himself in many places. I know that you realise what you have said and so I won't trouble you with a full and complete answer. Mockery is both offensive and unnecessary. You have consistently contradicted your own seeming clarity Just-In and have at times been on the border of rebellion. My advise is don't give me advise if that amounts to a mockery. For your information my name is Andrew. If you have a mind to use my surname then have the courtesy to use it in a manner which shows some respect. The undertone of your posts is clear. Most other things are not, nor will the end be until it comes.

One last thing Just-In. There is no such thing as truth which is arrived at by discussion. Opinions are arrived at by discussions. Even then it takes one man to finalise what has been said. If in the course of so many opinions a devil begins to speak, what will you do Just-In? It happens everywhere and it has always happened. The apostles drove the devil out Just-In by holding fast to the word of Christ taught to them. Then they wrote it down and we have it in our hands. There is no such thing as opinion, even though men endlessly exercise their opinions because they endlessly exercise their power to hold opinions. Opinion is worthless and always leads to a consensus of fools. The best deception in the last thirty years that I have seen has been this very point. It is the value and importance of opinion. As far as I can tell even the cults have embraced it. In the end those who are abused, defrauded and wasted have simply consented to the process by foolishly agreeing with their own opinion.

In any case Just-In I have no need for the opinions of men including yours. So on that basis I will leave you to the last word.

Andrew,

What about the Bereans searching the Word of God to see if what Paul was telling them was true? Do you not think they were "discussing" these things amongst themselves?

It does not take a man to finalize what has already been finalized by the Holy Spirit. It takes searching together to find the truth of a matter (God's opinion) as the Bereans did.

Psalm 119:165 KJV Great peace have they which love thy law: and nothing shall offend them!