The Dark Side of Tithing Testimonies

I thought I would share this aritcle I recently wrote.

The Dark Side of Tithing Testimonies

http://kingjimmyunauthorized.blogspot.com/2014/04/the-dark-side-of-tithing-testimonies.html

I work for a department in the foreclosure side of a bank as a mortgage underwriter. Every day I attempt to modify the mortgages of people who are behind on their payments, and adjust the terms of their loan so as to make their home more affordable, so they can resume making their payments, and keep their home. In the process of doing my job, I have occasionally analyzed the tax records and bank statements of people who tithe and make donations to various ministries.

I have seen people who tithe lose their home to foreclosure.

Over the years I have been in the church and involved in ministry, I have known some fantastic Christian people on a very personal level who believed in tithing. I've seen some these people tithe their way into deep everlasting poverty. I have seen very few people tithe their way out of poverty.

I've seen people "trust God with their finances," but they couldn't keep a bank account open. Either because they were worried about creditors suing them and seizing their assets, or because they couldn't keep a balance high enough to justify a checking account.

I have known people who tithe to have their phones ring off the hook at all hours of the day due to creditors calling for unpaid bills.

I have known people that tithe that have spent years suffering chronic unemployment, who would even tithe from their unemployment checks.

I have known people who tithe that needed people to co-sign for them on a car loan (which means a bank wouldn't lend them money because their credit was trash or they simply didn't make very much money).

I have known people who tithe to drive the most unreliable cars in the world, that constantly breakdown, leave them stranded, and further suck their already limited resources dry.

I have known people who tithe that regularly rely on government aid or the charity of others in order to just survive and have the basics in life.

Some of the people I have known in the above scenarios have been "lay people." But some have also been ordained ministers within the church. And for many ministers in various denominational affiliations, this is a major predicament, because the credentials they hold with their denomination require them to tithe. If they fail to tithe, they could lose their credentials, their church, and their job. So in spite of their extreme financial hardships that some suffer from, they continue to tithe so as to avoid unemployment, or losing a ministry that is precious to them.

Yet, in spite of all these bone crushing hardships people have suffered while tithing, and in spite of going through foreclosure, being behind on bills, being unemployed, and living in deep poverty, I have sat in church and heard some of these same people stand up and testify about how "blessed" they were financially for tithing. If their creditors were in the room, they would disagree. If they are so blessed, and if heaven is so open, why aren't they paying all their bills?

For every story I've heard where somebody stands up, testifies to God's faithfulness in tithing, and then tells stories of groceries left at the door, or receiving anonymous checks in the mail, I know of a hundred other people who went without groceries, and whose mail boxes were full of nothing but "past due" and "shut off" notices. Ashamed, many choose to say little to nothing at all about this in church. Even if they did want to share, many pastors would probably not let them do so.

I don't mean for this post to come across as harsh, unloving, or cynical. I'm just attempting to be very real about the things I know and to generate a real discussion about the modern practice of tithing. I am very deeply conflicted about the things I have seen in church over the years, and testimonies connected with people who tithe. I don't think many in the church are being very honest. We are very selective in the stories we tell, and we are guilty of telling half-truths. We ignore any story that could hurt the size of our offering. We don't want the real truth.

Many ministers know of these things, but continue to selectively celebrate "success stories" while deliberately ignoring the stories of people who tested God with their tithe, yet have seemingly seen God fail them. Their selective success stories are like fisherman who tell stories of big catches, but never tell you about the days they caught nothing. Their selective success stories are like professional stock traders who tell stories of 100 percent gains, but don't tell you of the time they saw a stock they own go all the way down to zero.

Some who know of these things will even go so far as to say these failure stories are not evidence of a busted doctrine, but are evidence that the person who was tithing wasn't doing it with the right heart. Or, they will make some other charge of guilt against their brother and sister who was so bold as to give 10 percent of their income, even in the face of financial adversity. Something must be wrong with them and why they tithed but didn't see the results. Then they will go on to rehash a success story they know of, that reinforces the idea that tithing always works, and using it to discount the not so happy story. This my friends is known as propaganda.

As a result, most never bother to genuinely question the doctrine of tithing altogether, and whether or not Christians today are required to tithe, in spite of the knowledge that there are people whose tithing stories aren't so successful. No genuine inquiry and no real "testing" is allowed. No failure stories are kept, recorded, or remembered, except in the memories of people whose financial lives have been turned up-side down because somebody twisted their arm and encouraged them to tithe, and misapplied some promises from the Old Testament.

If we are going to tell people to "test God" in with their tithe, then we better be open and honest about the whole truth of the matter, and tell all the stories of people who tested God with their tithe, only to seemingly see God fail. Some people tithe, and never see heaven so much as crack open an inch. Instead they suffer bankruptcy, foreclosure, unemployment, broken down cars, and outlandish medical bills and other outstanding debilitating issues.

It is my contention that because God does not require Christians to tithe under the New Covenant, the promised blessing of Malachi 3:10-11 has no bearing anymore, and that is why we cannot "test God" in tithing. I believe we are called to a different sort of stewardship and a different form of giving altogether.

Honest article, Jimmy.

In the church, just like anywhere else, if you say something enough times, promise enough riches and fortune, and get enough people behind it you're going to have people who eventually buy into it. But they can only bank off the get-rich stories of others, hoping if they are obedient long enough and give cheerfully they too can cash in on God's lottery. They are taught that doubt is tantamount to disobedience; and what's more, it is a requirement to give to the lottery commission under fear of a curse. Since most Christians do not truly understand the New Covenant, they are whisked away with the "tithe requirement" before they can investigate the matter themselves. They become prisoners of denominationalism group-think and are at once put to make bricks under Pharaoh's ten-percent taskmasters. They are then told this quota must never fall (even when the straw becomes sparse) or else God will allow the whip of the devourer to lash their backs.

My in-laws are big Pentecostal tithers. They are forever in debt, borrowing money till payday, and then when they default on the loan the creditors call my house (because they listed me and my wife as reference). I shudder to think they have to give the taskmaster his 10% cut after each loan and then spend the rest of the year trying to pay it back with high interest. They will not admit that tithing does not work though they have been in this sad financial cycle for over 13 years. I know other families (Southern Baptists) who have faithfully tithed for 35 years but still live from paycheck to paycheck and do not have ample savings to retire.

I once asked why this was to him (my co-worker), and he thought a moment and shrugged. "I've always been taught that tithing is just what you do. God requires His ten percent." And left it at that.

It does not honor God when we do not pay our debts. It does not honor God when we cannot feed our children because we sent checks to some tele-evangelist who promised we would get 10 time or 100 times return. Quite the opposite in fact. Now people can genuinely fall on hard times , lose their jobs and lose their houses, this is not dishonoring , it can often just be life and circumstances..............

Exactly. I remember the first time going through somebody's bank statements at work, and stumbling across a donation to Benny Hinn Ministries. My heart just sank and broke all over the place.

Paul,

It is almost terifying the degree which pastors bully the sheep into tithing these days. Now I understand, many of them have a gun to their own heads too. If they don't tithe, denominational officials (especially in Pentecostal churches), will remove you from ministry. And being that they don't have any other marektable job skill, some will truly tithe until it hurts. They know if they don't, their family will be out on the streets.

Being in the business that I am at the bank, I have attempted to make several itemized budgets for the average family of 4 to survive off, pay all their bills, and still make a 10% gross tithe payment. It has been my honest assesment that in America, the average family of 4 cannot afford to tithe if they make less than $50,000 gross a year, and still pay all their bills

Of course, there are exceptions to this. But if the average family of 4 does manage to do this, they definitely will not be able to save much of anything on a monthly basis. They will live paycheck to paycheck. They will retire broke. If it were not for any hope of Social Security and other government entitlements, they would be left destitute once their ability to work expired.

The math simply does not work for most people. Most people truly cannot afford to tithe, in spite of people telling them they cannot afford to not tithe.

I've seen it. It is heart breaking. The prosperity gospel is robbing many saints.

When does the Sermon on the Mount come into effect regarding finances? Is it only for the missionary? When does the exhortation to help feed and clothe the destitute brethren happen? How about the statement of Peter that having food and clothing, it is enough?

If the church wished to be really radical, it would give directly to the poor, or non profit organizations that specialized in helping the poor. But most of our money is spent on overhead and things that don't really matter. My church last year gave 12% of it's offerings back to people in the community. Such is rather high for most churches. But, we stil have the rest of the money being spent on things in house.

Right out of the box, I am going to say this: I do not agree with the doctrine of tithing 10% of your income to the church. Why, because it isn't 10% of just your financial income. It is also 10% of your crops, and every 3 years that 10% is supposed to go help the poor of the land and the levite. If those who preach tithing really did get it from scripture, there would definitely be a lot more to it than just shaving 10% off the top of your paycheck (gross or net).

I also believe that the old testament law is fulfilled in Christ, and since we no longer have levites nor a temple, then what would our tithe, biblically be connected with.

Also, I am not so sure that failure stories is valid justification for the rejection of this doctrine. People who are generous with what they have (like the Bible says to be) yet do not operate their finances like the bible says to, cannot expect biblical results. Point in case: If I give half of what I make to my poorer bretheren, but rack up enough debt to be enslaved for a lifetime, then I may have fulfilled what God has said in one area, but I have absolutely rejected what He said in another. Can I expect anything but discipline from the Lord for this? I think not.

I do believe that we are called to a different kind of stewardship. Nothing belongs to me, because I am a slave to Christ. He owns all my stuff, and as His slave, everything I have should be used for His name and His glory--for the advancement of His kingdom. Anything that cannot be used for that end should be tossed out.

Just-in,

I am just making sure I understand the intent behind your post. Are you liking our modern day preachers to the kings of Israel?

If they don't tithe, denominational officials (especially in Pentecostal churches), will remove you from ministry. And being that they don't have any other marektable job skill, some will truly tithe until it hurts. They know if they don't, their family will be out on the streets.

One year I simply chose not to renew my credentials. This naturally brought a phone call from the district presbyter, but not after I received an embarrassing letter from the general council. The abridged version of the letter stated that as a mortician (my secular profession), the average salary was "x" amount of dollars per year according to national statistics. My current tithing record reflected my salary for that year was, in fact, far below the national average. They then asked me directly (by checking yes or no in a statement) if my tithing was an accurate calculation of 10% of what I in fact earned.

Of course, I was floored - and then just angry. I tried to imagine Paul or John sending such letters to the elders in the churches of Asia minor. It was obvious it was time for me to leave the AG. I still have the letter, by the way. I don't think I'll ever throw it out.

That's a pretty powerful story Paul. I remember when I was in the Church of God that the pastor of the church I was at announced that a directive had come down from Cleveland that the pastor was to ensure that all lay ministers were actually in fact tithing 10% to the rest of the church. Now, he went off the honor system, and didn't ask for audited financials or anything like that.

At the time I was a recent college graduate, making a mere 30 grand a year, but had just as much debt. I tried to keep up with tithing, as I knew it was a requirement for ministry in the church. Eventually I had to step aside because I could not afford to keep up my debt payments from college and pay my tithes. I gave what I could, but I simply could not afford to give anymore.

Had I not been dating/engaged to the youth pastor/worship leader, whose apartment I helped furnish and whose expenses I helped subsidize when I dated her on the weekends, I probably could have afforded to tithe. She tithed by the way, and when I was unable to do so anymore, shortly there after, it was one of the reasons she called our engagement off.

Prior to that I had been a candidate for being an elder in the church. After that, Bible college grad and all, they wouldn't even put my name on the roster to teach Sunday school. But my ex-future in-law, who was chornically unemployed and living off the government, tithed what he made from them, and who eventually lost his home, was put on the elder board and Sunday school teacher list.

Sometimes it appears you just got to "pay to play."

Just-In,

I believe that you are very much right about this. Biblical eldership was never designed to supercede the Lordship (Kingship, if you will) of Jesus Christ. Anything that elevates itself above him (including business meetings in some churches) needs to be reevaluated and brought in line with scripture.

I have recently finished studying the last 5 chapters of the book of judges (which actually precedes the first 16 chapters of judges) and I see more and more the modern day church in those verses. Paris Reidhead also preached a sermon called "10 Shekels and a Shirt" from 17 & 18. Very revealing.

It seems to me that most people are merely doing what is right in their own eyes.

I came to the same conclusion about tithing after studying on it & even went as far as to seek the opinion of a Jewish Rabbi. What I learned left me speechless. The Rabbi stated that "NO ONE" Jewish or Gentile may legally ( according to Torah ) receive a tithe. Because only the Levites were allowed to receive tithes. He also stated that because there is no temple the Levites are not able to perform their duties and so any tithing would be nonsense. Also Paul who was a Pharisee not one time mentioned tithing. He being a Pharisee, of whom we know were very careful in tithing on even the smallest matters. Surely Paul wouldn't have neglected such an important subject if it had been required for the New Covenant believers. My husband & I stopped tithing several months ago after my research but we still give to our church but mostly we have been giving money to help the less fortunate in our church. I am a giver. I love to give. But I can't understand how our churches preach love but neglect to see that the tithe doctrine has placed an undue burden on many people. Many times my husband & I have given more than 10% so for us it's not greed, it's a matter of right & wrong. It's about the anguish a single mother feels when she is torn between paying her rent or paying her tithes. My husband & I usually pray about what to give & we give the amount we feel led to give. Moreover we tend to give to others who are in need whether its buying food, a battery for their car, paying their electric bill etc. We are supposed to share with one another & help those in need. Isn't that what it's all about anyways. If the churches who are receiving tithes aren't really giving & helping the poor, orphan, widow, homeless then aren't they the ones robbing God of the Tithes?

The World's System
1. Give to myself
2. Pay bills/taxes
3. Maybe save

God's System
1. Give to God first
2. Save
3. Pay bills/taxes
4. Give to myself

Listen y'all.... I will be the first to agree that the NT does not teach tithing. But that is because it teaches stewardship which means everything is Gods but He allows me to manage it.

I use to use this to avoid tithing. But let's face it... 10% is a pretty meager amount. If you have ten pennies and someone told you to give 10% it's no big deal but if you have $1000 then it becomes a huge issue. But it is the same percentage.

I finally had to reach the point where I had to admit that the reason I was not giving a mere 10% to God was because I was being greedy pure and simple. We should not order and prioritize our lives so that giving just 10% to God will throw us into financial ruin.

So if I don't believe in tithing why do I tithe? Because you have to start somewhere and anything less when it comes to giving to God just seems cheap.

I am not saying you have to pay your church if that is not what you are led to do. But we need to honor God with our finances. Why did Jesus talk so much about money?

With most people in our country living paycheck to paycheck, giving 10% off your gross is a pretty big deal. Granted, many of us could probably easily afford to give 10% if we simply didn't splurge on so much materialistic stuff. But, a lot of people I have found, simply are not able to do that.

For those in the lower income brackets, I would like to see a pastor make a weekly budget for these people, and show them how they can indeed afford to tithe and pay all their bills.

Most probably would not be able to make the math add up.

The Rabbi stated that "NO ONE" Jewish or Gentile may legally ( according to Torah ) receive a tithe. Because only the Levites were allowed to receive tithes.

Going through each book of the New Testament revealed nothing about what I was being taught; instead all the verses were being extracted either from the Levitical law or the times of Abraham and Melchizedek which predated the law. I saw that circumcision, like the tithe, also predated the law, but whether or not circumcision was required was obvious thanks to Paul's treatise to the church of Galatia. The question still remained about the tithe.

And then God spoke to my heart one day and forever settled the matter for me. He told me that if I could read the New Testament of Jesus Christ in its entirety (from Matthew to Revelation) as an early Greek or African believer would have in the beginning, and come away with a propulsion to tithe (considering I even knew what tithing was), then, of course, I was to tithe as an act of faith. Light came to me immediately on the subject.

Hi All,
May I add one thing.I am not a bank manager or accountant.At best if it would be an educated guess what 10 percent is.
I would have to put myself under bondage to figure out the exact figure is.I wouldnt have the time
Yours Staff

My post was more of a personal testimony. I found that when I wasn't disciplined about giving to the Lord I just didn't do it, or at least I did so very meagerly. And i justified it by reasoning that I worked with the youth group and taught bible studies. But I knew I should have been giving more.

Each person can do what he/she feels led to do. But I think that God wants us to have a loose hold of our stuff.

We can say that God doesn't need our money, but really He does. That is how he arranged things. Money buys Bibles, funds missionaries, buys and maintains internet servers, feeds the poor, etc. of course it also buys a lot of silly things that churches think they need.

My point is that God expects his people to give to the cause. I don't see how anyone can escape that conclusion from reading the NT. Yes, we are to give in all sorts of ways. But money is one thing that God gives us to steward and he expects us to invest in His Kingdom. How much? That depends- how much is His Kingdom worth?

If anyone wants to read it, a bud I used to go to Church with wrote a book on tithing.

http://www.emeraldministries.com/Books/A_Christian_and_Tithing.pdf

And then God spoke to my heart one day and forever settled the matter for me. He told me that if I could read the New Testament of Jesus Christ in its entirety (from Matthew to Revelation) as an early Greek or African believer would have in the beginning, and come away with a propulsion to tithe (considering I even knew what tithing was), then, of course, I was to tithe as an act of faith. Light came to me immediately on the subject.

I count my self blessed in this matter. I was raised as a Hindu with no understanding of Christianity until I turned 25. I started reading the Bible starting from New Testament. I did not attend any VBS or Christian education in my childhood that would have introduced me to this OT stories. I started reading OT only after finishing NT. Hence when I read OT I can clearly see it as a shadow of NT. I could clearly see it as a symbol of NT. I was never carried away by any OT law.

I've done the math... a family of 4 making $50,000 a year or less probably cannot afford to tithe... contrary to preachers telling them "you can't afford not to tithe".

http://kingjimmyunauthorized.blogspot.com/2014/04/you-probably-cant-afford-to-tithe.html

Many pastors have been known to boldly stand in the pulpit and proclaim, "You can't afford not to tithe!"

Many of these pastors have never sat down and tried to make a budget with the people they are preaching to. They've never sat down and done the math.

As I will demonstrate in this brief essay, the average family of 4 making $50,000 a year probably cannot afford to tithe.

The financial assumptions I am making in this essay assumes a family of 4, where the husband is the sole wage earner in the family, and where the wife is a full-time stay at home mother who stays home to take care of the kids. I assume they own 1 car outright, and have an auto loan on another. I assume they have a mortgage that is reflective of 25% of their gross monthly income (which is pretty common). Because it is the law of the land, I am operating under the assumption the household is fully insured. I assume this family has no credit card, student loan, or medical debts. I assume this family is not making any contributions to retirement savings.

Since I personally live and work in the greater Charlotte, North Carolina area, I am going to assume taxes and living expenses that are in keeping with a person who lives in the suburbs of my living area. I work as a mortgage underwriter for a living, so some of my assumptions come from being regularly exposed to the personal finances of a lot of people, as well as the general lending standards of most banks. Please feel free to adjust these expenses based on where you live to see if what I say pans out.

Using the PaycheckCity.com calculator, I have determined that a married man living and working in North Carolina making a fixed salary of $50,000 a year will gross $961.54 a week before taxes/social security, and will net $738.58 after. His gross monthly income ($961.54 x 52 / 12) is $4,166.67, and his monthly take home pay is $3,200.51.

Monthly Gross: $4,166.67
Monthly Net: $3,200.51

Itemized expenses:
Tithe 10%: $416.67
Mortgage payment: $1,041.67
Groceries: $850.00
Water Bill: $50.00
Electric Bill: $150.00
Gas bill: $50.00
Home/Cell Phones: $150.00
Clothing: $50.00
Auto Loan: $200.00
Auto Insurance: $100.00
Auto Gas: $100.00
Auto Maintenance (Tires/Oil/Taxes/Inspections): $150
Health/dental/vision insurance: $200.00
Miscellaneous: $100.00
Total monthly expenses: $3,608.34

Monthly budget deficit: -$407.83

Based off these rough, and rather conservative monthly budget figures that I used, I have concluded that the average family of 4 living in the greater Charlotte, North Carolina area making $50,000 a year simply cannot afford to tithe. Without their tithe, this family of 4 would be lucky to break even on a monthly basis. They don't even have room for regular monthly savings, let alone money to contribute to a retirement account.

In order to pay their tithe, this family would ultimately be forced to skip out on some other bills in order to make the math work, or they would be forced to radically downsize their current lifestyle... which is already pretty conservative.

So the next time a preacher tells you that you can't afford not to tithe, ask to sit down with them and work out a budget with you, and ask him how this math works. Because as far as I'm concerned, as somebody who crunches numbers for a living, I do not believe that the average family of 4 that is lower middle class and below can actually afford to tithe on a monthly basis, and still stick to their monthly budget.

"I have always found it quite brazen regarding the liberties that the religious system takes in prying into the private matters of their members."

Just-in,

This "religious system" is the church. 2 Corinthians 8-9 is does not say things like, "giving is a private matter, so I am not discussing it." No, Paul spends 2 chapters dedicated to exhorting the bretheren to give with generosity AND gives them several motives and reasons why they should do this. Now was that written only for the corinthians or was the written for us as well? Did Paul leave it a private matter, yes of the heart. But it is absolutely silly to think that we were bought at the cost of the blood of the Son of God, that He adopted us into His family, that we are now Brothers and Sisters and responsible one for another, but yet we maintain some degree of privacy from one another. We are one. Should we let our left hand know what our right hand is doing--no. Can I teach on true, biblical giving and make blanket statements like, "He who sows sparingly will reap sparingly". Yes. I can.

---------

King Jimmy,

If I ran my finances with that much debt involved, I can see exactly why I am unable to give. I am a slave to my debtor. I would rather NEVER own a house and not be a slave to anyone but Christ than to spend 1/3 of my total income per year on a house.

Ah, I got your meaning now, just-in. I thought you meant the religious system referring to biblical principals.

King Jimmy,

If I ran my finances with that much debt involved, I can see exactly why I am unable to give. I am a slave to my debtor. I would rather NEVER own a house and not be a slave to anyone but Christ than to spend 1/3 of my total income per year on a house.

That may seem like a rather high mortgage payment, but it is pretty typical for what banks lend. IMO, most people should try to get a mortgage that is no more than 20% of their gross monthly income. But banks will lend up to 36% in some instances. So, 25%, which is what I used in my example, is still pretty conservative.

And in the area where I live, you'll be hard pressed to buy a home for under $1,000 a month for principal, interest, taxes, and insurance (fully escrowed). Most people I know are easily paying $1200-$2000 a month.

For anything below that, you'll have to move a pretty good ways out of the county, or live in a really run down part of town. But if you chose to do that, you'll easily see your monthly gas prices increased due to the increased drive. So you might be able to live in an older home for $800 a month... but it'll cost you in other ways to do so.

Bearmaster,

I don't think anybody here is against being gracious and giving. I believe everybody here regularly gives, some below 10% and some above 10%.

The purpose of this discussion has been, I do believe, is simply to highlight the fact that there is a lot more going on than usually is seen in the church. There has been a lot of abuse that has hurt a lot of people in a very real way.

According to the Scriptures, the Levis had no inherentance. The tithe was designed to do 3 things:

1) Take care of the Levites

2) Take care of the poor

3) Take care of other theocratic expenses (of course, involving the Levites duties).

Look at Numbers 18:21 and afterward.

Integrating the law back into grace will mean we will once again become self-condemned and it will be nothing more than checklist christianity--some examples: "Brother, I already gave my 10%; I did my duty.", "Brother, maybe if you tithed than you wouldn't be struggling so much.", "This church pays it's bills and everyone tithes, but we have nothing left. I guess God doesn't want us to minister to the poor and needy of our community."

And don't even think that tithers don't think like that. Cause they do. I go to a church full of them. They mark their check box and attained financial holiness for the week.

Let me explain to you how complex it has gotten where I attend church: People talk about tithing like it is an obligation, but if you aren't giving offerings (some mysterious extra amount), then you aren't fulfilling your duty. They say tithing is commanded, but the real blessings don't start flowing until you give sacrificial offerings, and the more sacrificially you give, the more blessed you will be, because, as everyone knows, "You can't outgive God." Not sure what version of the Bible that's in, but people quote it more than they do any other Christianese saying (thanks brother in the other post for that new word). So now we have this: "I put in my tithe plus the $20 I was gonna spend on cokes. I am now financially holy and well-pleasing to the Lord."

I talked to my pastor about it one time, showing him in scripture the error. His response to me was this: "Well, everyone wants their blessing."

I just wanted to beat my head into the wall.

People talk about tithing like it is an obligation, but if you aren't giving offerings (some mysterious extra amount), then you aren't fulfilling your duty. They say tithing is commanded, but the real blessings don't start flowing until you give sacrificial offerings, and the more sacrificially you give, the more blessed you will be, because, as everyone knows, "You can't outgive God."

Here is a quote by Dorothy Parker I just love: "If you want to know what God thinks of money, just look at the people he gives it to.”

The crazy American gospel equates money and success with God's favor. If a person is particularly gifted in athletics, for example, the belief is that God's favor is on the person (especially if they give Him glory for their skills). But what goes unmentioned is a fellow Buddhist athlete is just as gifted and wins just as many medals and attributes his skills to meditation. The idea that God's favor is evident through carnal means - i.e. the ability to run faster, throw a football further, excel in business, earn lots of money, etc. is Old Covenant theology, where God increased flocks and crops and gave His "mighty men" athletic power to rip apart lions and bears.

Not so in the New Covenant. The apostles were not rich and athletically superior. They were weak, humble, despised. They did not preach tithing and "releasing the power of God" through some sacrificial action. That is a cheap, superficial misrepresentation of the gospel of Jesus Christ, which brings it down to the level of magic.

The truth is that God usually has to take everything away from us in order to break our reliance on the things the gentiles seek after. This is diametrically opposed to the current teaching on tithing, which actually promotes a lust for money. "Do you have a need?" the evangelist asks. "Sew a seed and reap bountifully." It is another gospel. The teaching on the tithe (with its promises and curses), I have found, is the bedfellow of another gospel: a gospel which is predicated upon an obsolete covenant.

Paul,

I was listening to a sermon series by Paul washer called "The impossibility of the Christian life." It is very good stuff and relates well to what you are talking about--God uses the weak things of this world. That part of the message is primarily found on Part 3. I would highly recommend it.

But are you released from giving?

"Every man according as he purposeth in his heart, so let him give; not grudgingly, or of necessity: for God loveth a cheerful giver." (II Cor. 9:7)

This means that if you do not purpose in your heart to give to missions, you do not have to. You are released. But if you feel you "need" to (out of necessity) because someone is scolding you, then the motive is corrupt. Give elsewhere if you are led. Or give nowhere if you are led. The important thing is that we should never prod or make a believer feel he or she is wrong for not giving. That is unchristlike according to scripture, for it is none of our business. It is a heart matter between that believer and God.

I remember teaching a Sunday school lesson in which I gave the following illustration:

On your way to church, a homeless man came up and asked you for money. You apologized and said you didn't have anything to give him. In truth, you had your tithe money in your wallet. Then you came to church and gave your tithe, while neglecting the homeless man on the street. If that was you this morning, while the church may have accepted your offering, you didn't give one red cent to God.

The pastor of the church heard about this from his son. Very shortly thereafter, I got an e-mail from the pastor warning me not to teach that again.

While greed definitely hinders many, maybe a lot of American Christians would give if they truly were empowered to see real needs, and empowered and encouraged to meet them. Maybe they need to see something worth giving to.

Instead, we get brutally lashed at by many ministers for not giving enough money to church buildings and programs. They are things that usually don't move our heart.

Paul, giving as anything under the New Covenant is a discipline that needs to be taught. To say a believer is released from not giving will breed selfishness and arrogance.

greetings

I use to be so eaten up about tithing and then after much prayer and reading the BIBLE I found freedom in HIM to give as HE gave me leading to. I do think there is much pressure in this country to support church buildings and programs with little of the money really being used to go to help the poor, the widows, or the orphans. How many times I have heard the call to bring in more money so the church building can be expanded or a new sound system put in, meanwhile families are struggling to get by.

KingJimmy I looked over your mock up budget and the state I live in a family a four could never live on that amount let alone follow a ten percent tithe. The taxes and cost of living on the east coast are so high that people struggle to barely make it. I think your article was very well written and spot on.

Thank you for sharing
God bless
mj

Indeed Mary. Most of the mortgages I underwrite for a living are for people who live in New Jersey, Maine, New York, Connecticut, and Pennslyvania. The expenses associated with living in most of these states is absolutely amazingly high. And when I see how small the homes are compared to where I live, and the price tags assocaited with them, I grieve for the people that live there.

The living expenses for my theoretical budget only works in places where "y'all" is in the dictionary, and sweet tea is our champagne.

Quote: "The important thing is that we should never prod or make a believer feel he or she is wrong for not giving. That is unchristlike according to scripture, for it is none of our business. It is a heart matter between the believer and God."

But according to the clear teaching of the NT is IS wrong not to give. It is not right to be selfish. Therefore is it not right that Christians be instructed about such things?

The best sermons I have heard about giving approach it from the angle of how to be a good steward. Let's face it-- many Christians in the USA are consumed by debt because the live like the rest of Americans who are also consumed by debt. The biblical model of stewardship turns the worlds way of handling money on its head which is what my first post on page 1 shows.

In general it is a lack of discipline and unwillingness to give up certain things that put Christians in financial difficulty. Not in every case but usually. If a person follows biblical principles this can be avoided. Again I ask.. Why did Jesus talk so much about money?

But according to the clear teaching of the NT is IS wrong not to give. It is not right to be selfish. Therefore is it not right that Christians be instructed about such things?

by PaulWest on 2014/4/9 12:57:07

But according to the clear teaching of the NT is IS wrong not to give. It is not right to be selfish. Therefore is it not right that Christians be instructed about such things?

Amen Paul Amen!!

In all fairness to us American Christians and our selfish consumer driven lifestyles who are burdened down with many debts, some of us simply have not known any better, as nobody has ever really taught us true Biblical stewardship. I must admit, I went through Bible college, and the only amount of financial stewardship teachings I heard centered around tithing. The same goes in the church.

I fear many pastors don't know how to teach on good financial stewardship because they are lacking a sound Biblical foundation in the matter too. Most of us have been extremely blinded by our culture in this regard, that, even though we read our Bibles, we still think and act like most unsaved people do with our money.

And for many of us, we don't realize and learn good Biblical stewardship until we are so covered in debt that the decision to suddenly get off the hampster wheel is very difficult to do. If I got saved yesterday, but had a debt-to-income ratio of 40%, there isn't much I'm probably going to be able to do in order to change that anytime soon. Practically speaking, even if you go buck wild with Dave Ramsey, it'll probably be several years before you are in the place to give as freely as you would probalby like.

Paul-

What you are saying sounds good and I am not sure I disagree with it.

But Jesus commanded that we go and "teach everything I have commanded you." The question we must then ask is, "Did Jesus teach us to give?"

If the answer is "yes" then we must teach about giving. I am not saying that we should ask people what they make and keep track of what they give. I am saying they should be taught about biblical stewardship.

That concept is found in the teachings of Jesus, that a person who follows Christ must forsake "all that he has” (Lk. 14:33/ Mt.13:44-46). The ceremonial law served as a precursor of this NT revelation. The latter teaches that all of God’s people, having been "bought with a price,” are not their own, but are owned entirely by Jesus Christ (1 Cor.6:19-20). ALL of the believer’s time and ALL of his possessions belong to God.

The Christian is a "steward”, or "manager,” of somebody else’s (God’s) possessions. I agree that he is not in some partnership arrangement with God in which God holds 10% and he holds 90%. In coming to Christ, the repentant sinner surrenders EVERYTHING to God, and claims ownership of **nothing** (Acts 4:32). At conversion, the believer becomes responsible to manage every asset (monetary or otherwise) in the interests of the Master’s profit. whoever seeks to reserve a share of their lives for themselves should not bother applying (Lk 9:23).

What must the steward do? He must discharge his responsibility in exactly the manner that his Master would do if He were in the steward’s shoes. What would God spend His money on? The Scriptures give us plenty of guidance on this matter. Throughout Scripture, God expresses His concern for the helpless poor and the support of ministers of the Word of God. A gift to the poor is a gift to God Himself (Prov.19:17/Mt.25:37-40), and is the method of depositing treasures in heaven (Mk 10:21/Lk. 12:33). Giving to the needy is merely an expression of the mandate to love our neighbor as we love ourselves (Lk. 10:27-37).

We must also realize that God promises to meet the needs of His servants and their families. Therefore, a certain amount of our income must be devoted to the feeding, housing and clothing of our families (1 Tim.5:8). Nor is there any forbidding of a few things for enjoyment alone (1 Tim.6:17). How many such things? That is between the steward and his Master, and is not for another to judge (Rom.14:4). HOWEVER, we must guard against our own relentless tendency to judge our own actions (and expenditures) more favorably than the facts would suggest. In eternity, I believe that our joy will be in proportion to our self-denial in this life and our generosity to the poor and to the work of God.

In the first century after the apostles, Christians understood that tithing had been replaced by full surrender to God. In "Against Heresies," Irenaeus wrote, "[The Old Testament saints] offered their tithes; but those who have received liberty set apart everything they have for the Lord’s use, cheerfully and freely giving them, not as small things in hope of greater, but like that poor widow, who put her whole livelihood into the treasury of God.” The Didache (early second century) states: "Do not hesitate to give, and do not give with a bad grace; for you will discover who He is that repays you. . .Do not turn your back on the needy, but share everything with your brother and call nothing your own.”

I guess my whole point in all this is that when you look at what the Bible teaches about stewardship, tithing may be getting off cheap in comparison.

We are not discussing about whether or not we can teach about giving.

We are discussing whether or not tithing or threat of condemnation of some sort is a viable means of doing so.

But Jesus commanded that we go and "teach everything I have commanded you." The question we must then ask is, "Did Jesus teach us to give?"

Brethren, we must appeal to the Holy Spirit alone when it comes to our giving, otherwise we just relegate ourselves to the auspices of benevolent humanism in the name of Christ. If we are mature Christians, we must be led by the Holy Spirit in all of our giving, and we must be discerning. Just because a missions organization exists, it doesn't mean we are to automatically pour money into it. Just because we see a panhandler on the street, it doesn't mean we automatically give him a twenty. Giving the prodigal son money when he was down and out would have been a horrible thing to do, and would have gone against God's plan to bring him back to his senses. Just because there are Koreans without Bibles, it doesn't automatically mean we are to buy one thousand dollars worth of Bibles and ship them off to Korea. As good and noble as these actions may be, we must wait to hear a personal directive from God. We must understand this principle.

Once God gives the directive, the giving will be cheerful, borne out of an obedient spirit. I have given to causes in the past without first discerning the heart of God, and the giving was never truly cheerful (though I tried to create an aura of cheerfulness in my spirit). I instead did it out of a sense of obligation, believing God would be pleased - I really wanted to please God. It was selfish at the core, for as long as I knew God was pleased with me, I could then be pleased with myself. Can you see it?

Giving specifically after God directs, however, is different. Spiritual joy floods your being. The focus is taken from self and instantly goes to God. The joy we experience now comes from the knowledge of our own unworth in being allowed the privilege to give, rather than the act of giving itself merited to the kindness of our own hearts (and in what we believe is our godly obligation). It's a very subtle shift, but one that makes all the difference. The difference between soulful giving and spiritual giving.

Amazing observation Paul. Thanks for the confirmation. The thought ran through my mind today as well: Although we know The Lord would've given as the Law required, there isn't one instance of him ever giving any money to anybody for anything as recorded in the gospels.

I dont want to sound legalistically challenging, but wouldn't it
be correct to say that you first buy him some food and then
you expand on it with soft words regarding why you did it?

cheers brother, now i get it. It's a love vs doctrine issue.

Greetings

What I find so interesting from those who seem to support tithing as a "must" is the assumptions that those who do not tithe do not give. Just because someone does not tithe does not mean they don't give. I won't go into detail about how much I give because the BIBLE tells me in Matthew 6:3 "But when you give to the needy, do not let your left hand know what your right hand is doing,"

Why would any pastor or church leader demand to know what I am giving when the BIBLE clearly does not want me to go around talking about it? I have known many who speak about their tithe almost to the point of bragging...

God bless
mj

And MaryJane, there are churches that will ask to see your income tax returns to know how much to tax you...Go figure. BTW, the preacher lives in a fancy house, drives expensive vehicles...lives higher then many of his parishioners.

A man was onetime totally befuddled when he learned that we are members of a church and are not taxed.

Operating like a social, business club, don't you think?

A side note. One pastor told us he does not think it is proper for him to drive a nicer car then the [poorer] people in his church even though he could afford it.

I know this is not based on scripture - it is just an observation from life.

Paul-

What you are posting sounds so good because it is true. I agree with you 100%. We should always be lef by the HS when giving.

But I am afraid from a pragmatic standpoint that in reality maybe 90% of the christians out there aren't very spiritual. Very few christians are listening for, much less hearing the HS telling them what to give.

What I am saying is that in a perfect christianity the coffers of all churches, parachurch organizations, missionaries, and christian charities would be overflowing with cash from believers who have listened for an heeded the HS telling them to give generously.

I think part of the reason tithing is taught is because of this pragmatic problem. If a person tithes, at least they are being obedient even if the HS is not telling them to do it.

It is kind of like worshipping or praying. We should be doing both whether we feel like it or not, or whether we sense the HS telling us to or not.

It is simply too easy of an out for a christian to say "The HS has not told me to give, therefore I don't."

I am sorta with TMK on this. I think we have to be careful not to swing the pendulum too far the other way. Some tithe and lact like it is a magic slot machine with 100 fold returns guaranteed. Others wait for magical like experiences to influence them before they give.

How about we just do as much good to every man, as often as we can, and call it a day. If a beggar asks you for money, just give it to him if you have it. Whatever you do, do it sincerely from the new heart Christ gave you, and you'll be fine every single time. If it was in your regenerate heart to do, that was probably the Spirit every single time.

Justin, I'm only offering general exhortations.

As far as the homeless go, having worked with them every week for several years of my life, I am always reminded of what one former homeless drug addict who got saved told me years ago:

He told me that he always gave to any beggar he came across since he cleaned up his act if he had the money. He said it is true that most of them, like him, are just going to take the money and spend it on booze and drugs. But he gave anyway, knowing like him that many are so addicted that it is a matter of life and death to them. Without their fix they could go into severe relapse and die. He often ended up in the hospital because of it. Knowing that he needed his drug fix so bad, he often would break into homes and such and steal stuff to support his habit.

Eventually though, God got a hold of him, and he got help, got his life together, got a job, married, and had kids and is now a grandfather. He said if his giving keeps one high street person out of somebody's home and out of the hospital and keeps them alive one more day, that is one more day they have the chance to get saved and get cleaned up. It is what happened with him.

That story has stuck with me for 12 years now. It has influenced why I do what I do when dealing with beggars. Most of the time when I know I am going downtown, I try to always get some pocket cash just in case the opportunity arises.

Do what you want with my story :-)

Interesting points of view, just to add another perspective.

Within the grace churches even they are divided on whether tithing should be encouraged. The reasoning goes that Abraham tithed under grace, not to get a blessing but because he was blessed already.

Also, in tithing to the local church there is a level of trust for the people who are full time employed by the church.

They need to eat, live and raise families. They have the time to run the affairs of the church because they are employed to do so.

More often than not people in need know where local congregations meet and will come to the premises for help. So there is a focal point for ministry and the administration of helps.

I have to trust that the full time staff have systems in place which makes there ministry to the poor and needy the most effective. Which they do in my case.

So I 'tithe' based upon the above factors. Not under law, because tithing predates the law and also that its by and in faith.

Does it release the burden to help every and anybody, to a certain degree it does, because as a local body of believers this things are happening. At the same time you can't turn away someone when its in your power to do so.

Listening to some of the ways that churches 'collect' tithes was quite revealing. Only in our more conservative old school churches do they still go to that level of invasiveness in your finances.

In fact it was so bad many years ago that the pastor used to go around at the beginning of the month and collect tithes from the congregants.

Again, for those getting upset. The issue we are discussing is indiscriminate giving (under which the tithe falls). This is much different from being miserly. It is important to note Jesus did not cleanse entire leper colonies. He did not revive entire cemeteries. Such impulses might be steeped in the logic of humanism, but they are not God's way. The money I have is God's - not merely the tithe, but 100%. That means none of it is mine to spend autonomously.

Knowing this, I want to try my best to spend it according to his heart, according to His will and pupose. This means that if I am not prompted to give His money to a certain panhandler, I won't - no matter what the sign he is holding says. There may be another beggar I see tomorrow to which the Holy Spirit says "Give to him", and so I give. It's God's money; He should chose to whom it goes. We need to be able to discern His heart in this matter, otherwise we will give to anything and everything that puts on a sad face and panders to the emotion: tantamount to clearing out entire leper colonies for the sake of goodwill.

God has given us the freedom to hear his voice and be led by Him in all of our giving and taking. The old way was to go to a prophet or some human oracle to get instruction. To get rules, legislature, commands on what to do, how to do it, how much, etc. The flip side is to go off our own corrupt humanistic reasoning; of what "seems" right, of what we believe our godly obligation is, and of what others tell us we need to do. This may foster the "feel good" notion of the flesh, but often misses the perfect heart of God. The tithe preachers assume the latter, preying on those devoid of New Covenant understanding.

I'll say it again, brethren. We are "released" (or loosed) from everything on this earth that seeks to usurp the place of the Holy Spirit, including where, when and how much we give. Do not let any man put you under the bondage of what he thinks you should do with God's money.

This whole discussion on tithing and the reality of it in the "church" is a symptom of a greater problem and would not even be happening if the Church was truly built according to God's plans and not man's ideas based on the Old Testament patterns. Nothing will change in christendom until we say:

12 O our God, will You not exercise judgment upon them? For we have no might to stand against this great company/enemy that is coming against us. WE DO NOT KNOW WHAT TO DO, BUT OUR EYES ARE UPON YOU. 2 Chronicles 20:12

And throw away anything that does not land on Jesus only. Man has entirely built his systems to bring God down to his level, how we think God should act and function and be. This system will truly have to come to naught if we expect a true movement of God's spirit. His word says that new wine cannot be poured into an old wineskin if it does it will ruin both skins. When will we awaken and give up our own ideas and plans and purposes and truly repent of "doing it our way or how our parents did it or church fathers did it?"
And crying out to God "We don't know what to do, we don't know how to be the true body, but our eyes are on YOU!"

30 But what does the Scripture say? Cast out and send away the slave woman and her son, for never shall the son of the slave woman be heir and share the inheritance with the son of the free woman. Galatians 4:30

Whoa, brothers. Giving to the poor was not the original issue here. So please don't apply the entirety of this thread to that subject.

In regards to the poor:

Jesus said, "Give to those who ask of you." So if a poor man comes up to me and asks me for money, food, or gas, etc and I am able to give it, then I will, regardless of the motive (which I may or may not be able to perceive), because I desire to be conformed to the image of Him.

What I would be looking for is not the Spirit to tell me to give, but for the Spirit to forbid it. Our default setting should be generosity and only when the Spirit commands us should we pull back. We should not default to cynicism or feelings. Because, let's be honest, if you like to keep control of any amount of your money, you will see no benefit for just giving it away and you are very likely to not feel like giving.

Now, do I do it out of obligation? No. I delight in the commands of the Lord. Now, if I am broke and have very little and a poor man comes up to me and asks for money, should I give it? Well, yes. "Give to those who ask of you." It would be awfully easy for Jesus to throw on there, "if you are able" (that is assuming we actually have what is being asked of us).

Now the context is for us to love our enemies and those who don't love us back. Most homeless and poor people who fall into the latter catergory.

HOWEVER:

In regards to the church taking up a mandatory collection. THAT is not commanded. And that, I believe, was the original intent of this thread. So we need to decide right now, which one of these things we are talking about lest our discussion become absolutely fruitless and detrimental to the body.

I found this article:

http://onenewsnow.com/church/2014/03/25/tithing-%E2%80%93-more-than-just-an-issue-of-generosity

It is very revealing of the corruption on this topic.

They state that there is a biblical foundation for tithing, and then say it showed up during the fourth century under constantine! Doesn't sound scriptural to me. Especially when you find out what the tithing was paying for--big buildings...hmmmmm

All of you who are pastors and anybody who is a pastor and they take the offering that the people have given them in the churches for themselves they are robbing God. They are robbing God, they are using the money for their own lifestyles and they themselves are not preaching the gospel for FREE. Those of you who are giving to these organizations are not giving to God you are giving to man.-Lyte Robert

Now, the Bible makes it abundantly clear that a man is allowed to make his living off of preaching the Gospel if he indeed preaches the Gospel.

Now, Paul in 1 Corinthians 9 and 1 Timothy 5 uses the same reference in regards to those who labor in the Gospel reaping material things from their labors.

If a minister chooses, for the sake of the Gospel to waive that, then that is fine.

Armkelly,

The issue I have with a mandatory tithe to the Lord's house is not that Christians are being coaxed to do something that they are financial incapable of doing. No. It is far more sinister than that. What I have noticed is that those who tithe develop a checklist mentality, "oh I did that. I tithe. I don't have to give anymore." They shut up their hearts and absolutely cling to their 90% because that is THEIRS and they already gave God His 10%.

AmrKelly,

Maybe the best way to think about me and my stuff is to take up the attitude that Paul had in Philippians 3: To count all things as loss--even garbage in comparison to knowing Christ Jesus my Lord.

"Money? Forget it. I want to know the Lord, and I am willing to part with all of it, if necessary." Maybe that is the attitude I should strive for, in regards to money.

I go with the stewardship concept, it clearly has to be delegated, and it is not our own. That's why i appreciate joyful givers, they understand that it was given to us, so we also can give whenever we see a need.

Why talk about the law and the 10%? Why not give more than that? Has absolutely nothing to do with the law, it's about if grace has touched our hearts or not.

Besides, this might just be my personal experience, whenever i regard money not as my personal posession and kind of 'drop it' on people, doors open, and new ways of receiving 'new money' appear out of nowhere. Who opened these doors, and for what purpose arrive these streams at our door? Take a wild guess.

a-servant...Besides, this might just be my personal experience, whenever i regard money not as my personal posession and kind of 'drop it' on people, doors open, and new ways of receiving 'new money' appear out of nowhere. Who opened these doors, and for what purpose arrive these streams at our door? Take a wild guess.

this has been interesting ,,,,and as usual brother Andrew has givern me much to think about ,,,,as I was leaning towards the seeming obvious and elementary ,possission of tithing not being for me or Christians

it is true tho that even the holy spirit can convict and tell a person to make regular roughly ten percent payments to a church or a missions society ,,,and then not have to led and remind me every week ,through a word of knowledge ,or even less a leading, to continue to do so

but if some one legalistsly with out knowing ,, trys to pressure me to to not do this by saying it is wrong to tithe ten percent ,,,,,

who becomes guilty of legalism ???????

need I say the one who preaches to me that im doing wrong by giving ten percent

we need to watch what we say in regards to this issue
and not become unknowingly hipacreats

blessings

What is truly amazing is KingJimmy original article does not claim anyone is wrong for giving, he was merely talking to the fact that many pastors pressure people into giving ten percent when they do not have the monies to do so. He spoke about the pressure and condemnation placed on people, the bondage placed on people to follow a law that was given in the old testament. He never said giving was not required,we are to give our of the abundance of our hearts was mentioned several times, but then that is how this forum usually works people read and see what they want to only.

Personally if you feel led to give ten percent and GOD has guided you to do so then do it, if you feel led to give fifty percent, or one hundred percent then do so. No one said you can't or shouldn't...

God bless
mj

I honestly believe the majority of Christians and people in general in usa and Australia probably live beoned there means , and that is the reason why they are in debit rather then blaming a ten percent offering or tithe

most people don't hear what paul said as one of our example seters that with food and clothing ,he is content ,,he even said he was content with want ,,and he lived in a rental home rather then owning his own house

the bible says own know man anything

if we were willing to sacrifice the idea of the American dream to go in to debt for 30 years to own our own home and then die just after we finialy pay the debt ,,,,,and be content with our heavenly home and for sake the mundain trinkets and toys of the world system ,,we would be able to afford around the ten percent for missions ,and extra to help the poor when the opportunity arises and even save a little money

interests on lones materialism and and wanting to much and perusing that by feeding the covertus spirit imbedded in the flesh is the sickness of the world and is infected many Christians and so called Christians

im not speaking about those who are already rich in this age ,,paul said to those always be willing to share and give ,,,but he said all those who desire to be rich fall in to the snare of the devil and pierce them selves with many sorrows

the Australian dream is to seek riches , if we want to compare us with the rest of the world thats what it is

but if we seeked first the kingdom of heaven every thing we need will be added to our life ,,,,god knows what we all as individuals need and ,,and to some he may give less and some more ,,he may even make some one wealthy by seeking the kingdom come ,,but that up to him and not us

all my life I was broke till a started to seek gods kingdom and in the last 5 years he blessed me with much more food and fish that I need and more money then I need 25000 more ,,,,,,a good wife ,,,,,I have forsaken bank lones so I wont own a house unless I pay mainly cash for one but im not seeking that ,and im still have the same job a glorified labour plaster ,,,,,

Jesus said we should forsake our own lives to be a worthy disciple ,,,we should not in any way set our minds on those things that are on the earth ,but in the heavenlys

if we do that we know that what we receive comes from his hand and not from our fleshly efforts

rather then winge about what we all know about the pasters and the church and state the obvious and amen each others ,,we should exhort one another as Jesus and Paul did ,,,,,,,,forsake this life

I need to hear that and be reminded of that

faith with out works is dead ,,,,,,demonstrate your faith by doing holy selfless works

he who sows sparingly will reap little

I see so much of us stating the obvious and patting one another on our backs ,,,,,,,,

none of this is impressing the lord

knowledge puffs up ,,its not edifying anyone , love does that ,, don't be fooled it wont conform us to the image of the son

I don't expect to get an amen for saying this ,,but please brethren just think on these things

the lord will be home soon ,real soon ,,hard times are at the door ,,what is going to matter in these final seconds of this age ,,,,,what will matter

I pray that god helps us be ;;;;;;;;;;;;; slow to speak
and slow to wrath
and eager to give
and quick to forgive

gods blessings on all of us

When I was growing up in the 50's and 60's we never had any issues with tithing. Today's Pastors that are building 50 million dollar buildings, and 5 million dollar homes, this has raised the issues of today. At our old church, we leased a home for our Pastor to live in, an he drove a used car. Jesus never even owned a home.

Whats really sad is, how can a pastor worth millions preach from the heart to the needy? Personally, if I had millions I just don't think I could still possess the heart to be a good disciple. My older brother use to say, money can't buy happiness, but it sure can make living in misery a lot easier.

[edited]

Yeah Gary is right. We do need to spur one another on toward love and good works--all the more as we see the day approaching.

They don't know what to do, or how to handle freedom.

Many people expressed how it had been safer to live under the dicates of communism. Some even wished Josef Stalin were back. They would rather deal with the predictable confines of communism than with the unpredictable violence the free market engendered.

When people are set free from the law (i.e. the communistic law of Moses which demanded uniform conformity) by the Son of God, like those Russians, they suddenly find themselves in a quandary. They don't know how to handle their new freedom. Some people, like the pharisees Paul mentions in Galatians, actually become indignant when they see a person walking in spiritual freedom and seek to put the person back under bondage. They imagine that Christian "freedom" really can't mean total freedom. There still must be some communistic do's and don'ts: "Do tithe. Do not drink alcohol. Do not dance. Do Sabbath. Do pray 3 hours per day. Do not cosmetics. Do not jewelry. Do not TV. Do read 10 chapters of Bible per day. Do not wear pants if female, etc."

These are just some of the more popular "Christian community" rules that are often imposed upon believers in their freedom. They are imposed because they are regarded as "safe", to protect against the potential threat of lasciviousness that comes with the freedom grace brings. Some of those guidelines are good, and I observe them myself. But I observe them because I am led by God to observe them and not coerced by man. This is the fulcrum. We are free to give, but we are also free not to give if the giving is not purposed in our hearts.

This angers people. It angers them because they see the atrocities that occur when people take advantage of God's grace, and this I can understand. Where they go wrong, however, is in the endeavoring to merge elements of spiritual communism with grace to try to keep the sheep in tow. Again, the sheep are free. Totally, utterly free. But this freedom is intended to bring them under the law of grace where the Chief Shepherd can take over. If the Chief Shepherd says "Give", they give. If the Chief Shepherd says "Withhold", they withhold. If the Chief Shepherd says, "Go", they go. No man under the New Covenant has the right to usurp the role of the Chief Shepherd in issuing these directives in a spiritually communistic setting. As soon as he does this, grace vanishes and the old spoonfed regime of Josef Stalin returns.

Paul, what were you doing in Russia during that time?

Paul, what were you doing in Russia during that time?

"until I got saved in 2001."

You stopped at the good part...lol. How did that come about?

Just a little intermezzo regarding all this usual talk about
legalism and NT freedoms, I just did a 'phrase search'
for the term "prove me", and got only 3 results:

Job 9:20  If I justify myself, mine own mouth shall condemn me: if I say, I am perfect, it shall also prove me perverse.

Psalms 26:2  Examine me, O LORD, and prove me; try my reins and my heart.

Malachi 3:10  Bring ye all the tithes into the storehouse, that there may be meat in mine house, and prove me now herewith, saith the LORD of hosts, if I will not open you the windows of heaven, and pour you out a blessing, that there shall not be room enough to receive it.

lets look at the details regarding who it is that says 'prove me':

1) Job

2) David

3) God

it is an invitation in all three case, not an invitaion to start a discussion, but an invitation to get practial about it. It's the only time by the way that God invites us to prove HIM. So why dont you? Because He said it in the OT? And now He changed His mind? That God that never changes?

Why don't we just 'prove him' on this, and be quiet? Are we scared that HE will respond? [and prove our theolgy to be wrong?]

"I think He HAS proven Himself"

vs

"It's the only time by the way that God invites us to prove HIM."

justin thinks vs God says - its a no brainer for me, but thats just me

A servant where does your tithe go?

You stopped at the good part...lol. How did that come about?

Nathaniel.gardner(a)parker.com (a)=@

I would love to hear it brother.

we do prove God's word every time we decide to trust in His words.

Jesus said, "I am the way, the truth, the life". He is Abundant Life - we all know this abundance is not only comprised of food and clothes and money, but much more: the very life of the Godhead in our spirits. The real treasure is not mere money (brought on by the proof necessitated by tithing, as some teach), but rather the Life of Jesus Christ in man.

The problem is that not many people have fully evaluated this Supreme Treasure. This is because the treasure of Christ does not translate over into abundant tangible means the way we have been accustomed to desire. God only giving us what we need in materialistic terms is banal and undesirable for most. People want to go above and beyond: they want the $350,000 home in the gated community, the luxury car, the top notch schools for their kids, six-figure salaries, instant freedom from debt - and are trained to expect all this from God as a proof of His "exceeding abundance" activated from the tithe, totally missing out on the true Pearl of Great Price in exchange for hunk of fake glass.

It's all a facade. Life is fleeting, riches are inconsolable, beauty goes. The pretty glass gets scratched with wear and tear over the years...and the soul of man is forever gaping and hungry for more glass, like a bottomless pit. During these crisis moments, is God still saying to man "Prove me through the tithe?" No, He is not. God says instead: "This is my Son in whom I am well pleased." Jesus then says, "Come to me, all you who are weary." Weary of not having enough money? Why come to Jesus. You can simply go to the laws of karma and give what's left in your bank account to a beggar, and magically you will get more money. This is a universal law, like gravity. It works for Buddhists, Muslims, Atheists - what goes around comes around.

Again, Jesus says "All you who are weary, come to Me." Weary of ill health? (Note, money and health are the main things all the gentiles in the world go after, whether they be atheistic or religious). You can get healed without Jesus; you can go to a psychosomatic healer and get healed by the power of the soul. Muslims and Baha'i and Mormons have just as many "healing miracle" testimonies as do Christians in their faiths. And they attribute it all to their gods. Indeed, the True God of Israel healed infirmities and gave monetary riches and saved from souls from hell (and even forgave sin!) for thousands of years under the Old Covenant, way before Jesus even went to the cross (see Psalms 103), yet many Christians still have this incorrect notion that God is waiting for them to "prove Him" in these areas via Christ, via the tithe.

I have not read the entire thread but really appreciated what you wrote in detail earlier Paul. My initial church experience was with a place that required 3 tithes. I realized later it was not NC and 'rebelled' against it. Then they later realized their error and denounced it all. But then shortly after required just the first tithe. So, that was the straw that broke the camels' back for me. Some christians have been offended when they ask me about tithing and multiple offerings during a service but I don't bad mouth their church. Its wonderful to be free from all that guilt and mental gymnastics with giving and 'giving in public'. I don't want people to see me giving money. Wow, Police Academy. Did the humor rub off on you? ;)

Its wonderful to be free from all that guilt and mental gymnastics with giving and 'giving in public'. I don't want people to see me giving money. Wow, Police Academy. Did the humor rub off on you? ;)

As far as the "Police Academy humor rubbing off", I always thought those movies were abysmally dumb, even before I was saved :) But I've always been a funny guy. I try really hard sometimes to restrain myself here!

is God still saying to man "Prove me through the tithe?" No, He is not. God says instead: "This is my Son in whom I am well pleased.....

This is truly beautiful Paul. Deeply prophetic.

From another new post. Special thanks to Paul for providing some inspiration and insight on the matter...

A Terrible Lie: You need to Tithe to be Blessed

http://kingjimmyunauthorized.blogspot.com/2014/04/a-terrible-lie-you-need-to-tithe-to-be.html

Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ (Ephesians 1:3 NASB)

Have you ever been told that in order to experience God's blessings in your life that you need to do x, y, and z? Does any of the following sound familiar...

If you want to be blessed financially, you need to tithe.

If you want to experience a special touch from God, then you just need to go to listen to so-and-so preach.

If you want to be a super strong Christian full of the Holy Spirit, then you just need to pray 2 hours a day, read 3 chapters of your Bible daily, and regularly fast.

If you want to have a successful ministry, you need to trust God with God sized dreams.

If you want to be freed from sins you habitually struggle with, then you need to go and get deliverance.

If you want to experience peace and joy, then simply do these 10 things.

If you only do ... then only will you have...

The truth of the matter is that all of these things are terrible lies.

The truth of the matter is that everything you could ever possibly need you have already been given and blessed with by Jesus Christ. Re-read Ephesians 1:3 cited above. How does it read to you? Does it say you need to do anything to be blessed? Or does it say you ALREADY ARE blessed?

Here is a truth that regularly escape us: Everything you could possibly need to do in order to be blessed was already done for you by Jesus Christ in His work on the cross.

There remains nothing left for you to do, other than to walk in and enjoy the blessings God has already richly supplied as a kind of act of grace.

You see, the Bible teaches that when Jesus Christ was crucified, resurrected, and ascended into heaven, that you and I were spiritually made participants with Him during everything He experienced.

When Jesus was crucified, we died with Him on the cross.

When Jesus was resurrected from the dead, we were made to live.

When Jesus Christ ascended into heaven to sit at the right hand of God the Father, we too were raised with Him into heavenly places, and are made to presently enjoy all the blessings He currently enjoys as the One who lives forever.

In recent essays I have given considerable attention to the modern day practice of tithing. And I have done so, not because it is some sort of pet issue of mine that I enjoy giving considerable attention to. I've only done so because I believe this particular issue exposes a deeper problem within the church, and magnifies a set of problems that reveal our true spiritual condition, and how immature we truly are.

You see, almost all teaching you will ever hear on tithing from the pulpit these days tells us that the reason we aren't experiencing everything God has for us is because we aren't trusting Him with our finances. If only we would tithe, then the windows of heaven would be open, and we would be blessed financially. If only we would tithe, we would get a promotion at work and be able to pay off all of our bills, and experience God's 100 fold blessing.

The days of "if only we would..." are over because of what Jesus Christ has already done.

The truth is that as Christians we don't give in order that the Lord might bless us financially. We give because we are already blessed.

We are already blessed financially because of our union with Jesus Christ, as we sit with Him and enjoy the same life He enjoys sitting in heaven at the right hand of God the Father. We don't need to go chasing down some 100 fold blessing. We have already been blessed 100 times over, and with everything beyond what we could think or ask. We lack nothing.

Therefore, we as Christians give, and do so abundantly, not from our arms being twisted by a preacher employing coercion and guilt tripping us, or fear of "the devourer" unleashing hell in our lives and somehow causing us to be ruined as a result, but we give out of the realization that we've already been blessed financially, and that it is the joy of our heart to do so.

We bless others financially because we have discovered that we are already blessed, and want others to enter into the same joy that we have in the knowledge of Christ.

We don't give in order to tap into God's open heaven. For the doors of heaven have already thrown open for us when the King of Glory took His place in heaven, and He has invited us to come in and participate with Him in the blessings of that heavenly kingdom.

The only thing that remains for us to do is to open our eyes to see what has already been given to us, to see our true position in Christ, to see the riches that have already been supplied to us, and to live out our lives making the most out of what He has already done and what He has already provided.

We are blessed, therefore we give. And when we give, we don't worry in fear about somehow having less or going without. We have faith that God has already provided us all things, and that He has done so out of the work of Jesus Christ and what He accomplished in the cross, and that He will continue to enable us to always be able to give.

Jimmy, that was one of the best things I've ever read in this forum.

Jimmy wrote:The only thing that remains for us to do is to open our eyes to see what has already been given to us, to see our true position in Christ, to see the riches that have already been supplied to us, and to live out our lives making the most out of what He has already done and what He has already provided.

We are blessed, therefore we give. And when we give, we don't worry in fear about somehow having less or going without. We have faith that God has already provided us all things, and that He has done so out of the work of Jesus Christ and what He accomplished in the cross, and that He will continue to enable us to always be able to give.

_________________

I appreciated this very much. Thank you for sharing this here with us. Wonderful post.

God bless
maryjane