Hell
Pain that is never releaved
Regret that is never appeased
Guilt that is never eased
Captive never to be released
Desires that will never be pleased
Boredom that will never cease
Swimming in a lake of fire that will never freeze
Not a very bright outlook for 98% of those created in God's own image.
Satan is snickering with glee.
I tremble whenever I think of where I would be headed had God not graciously called me from my sinful ways to His glorious salvation.
Those who attack the biblical doctrine of eternal punishment assault the character of God, particularly His justice.
I've found that some main reasons why many people blatantly deny the reality of an eternal hell is due to a lack of realizing the seriousness of sin, and a lack realizing the absolute holiness and majesty of the God of the Bible.
Oracio--
Simple question for you:
Did God know that humans would sin before He created them?
Oracio--Simple question for you:
Did God know that humans would sin before He created them?
Of course He did or He wouldn't be omniscient.
TMK,
Jesus Christ was not plan B. He was plan A--the lamb who was "slain from the foundation of the world" and who "indeed was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you."
All of us deserve the wrath of God, TMK, apart from Christ.
If you believe that God is omniscient and therefore agree that God knew that man would sin before He created him and you also believe that hell is a place of eternal torment created by God in which to consign such individuals then you must deal with the implications of this. That is all I am saying. It is not me who is besmirching the character of God. I am trying my best not to do so.
My initial question was rhetorical. I know Jesus was not plan B. And I also believe that He died to save sinners. And I also believe that there is no other name by which we must be saved.
What I struggle with is the implications of the traditional view, only one of which I have noted above. I don't think many Christians think about such things. Perhaps they should.
Actually I should have taken my question one step further and asked whether God knew in advance that perhaps 99% of mankind would not accept Christ and whether He created an eternal hell of endless torment knowing this.
I have not heard a satisfactory resolution to this dilemma.
Yes, He did. The entire purpose of creation is His good pleasure, not for ours. Some vessels are for honor and some for dishonor. We have no right to complain about the way God runs His creation.
Revelation 17:8--"The beast that you saw was, and is not, and will ascend out of the bottomless pit and go to perdition. And those who dwell on the earth will marvel, whose names are not written in the Book of Life from the foundation of the world, when they see the beast that was, and is not, and yet is."
Romans 9:22--"What if God, wanting to show His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath prepared for destruction"
TMK, I'll ask a few other questions and I think you'll see my point.
If God is so loving, why does he allow babies to be born with serious physical defects or deformities, or why does He allow children to suffer from extreme hunger and illness in many parts of the world?
Why would He create a world of so much suffering in the first place if He knew it would become such a world?
If your answer is that it is only temporary that still doesn't answer the question to the satisfaction of many skeptics.
Some of God's ways are too deep for me to try to figure out. All I can do sometimes is trust Him and His Word with child-like faith because He has already proven Himself in so many ways, the climax of which is in the cross.
Some Scriptures that come to mind are the following:
"The secret things belong to the Lord our God, but those things which are revealed belong to us and to our children forever, that we may do all the words of this law."-Deut.29:29
"For as the heavens are higher than the earth, So are My ways higher than your ways, And My thoughts than your thoughts."-Isa.55:9
"Oh, the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable are His judgments and His ways past finding out!"-Rom.11:33
Havoc--- I had to read 3 times to make sure I read correctly what you wrote. I got the words right but not sure I quite understand exactly what you are saying. I hope you are not saying what I think you are saying so I was hoping for a clarification.
I stand by what I said.
What I struggle with is the implications of the traditional view, only one of which I have noted above. I don't think many Christians think about such things. Perhaps they should.
I think that increasing numbers of christians are thinking about these things. I have known a few who have lost their faith doing so. There have been times when I have wrestled with these things as well, although it has always been in the context of walking in the fleshy mind that the question has gone unresolved.
Yes, He did. The entire purpose of creation is His good pleasure, not for ours. Some vessels are for honor and some for dishonor. We have no right to complain about the way God runs His creation.Revelation 17:8--"The beast that you saw was, and is not, and will ascend out of the bottomless pit and go to perdition. And those who dwell on the earth will marvel, whose names are not written in the Book of Life from the foundation of the world, when they see the beast that was, and is not, and yet is."
Romans 9:22--"What if God, wanting to show His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much long suffering the vessels of wrath prepared for destruction" havock20x
Havoc--- I had to read 3 times to make sure I read correctly what you wrote. I got the words right but not sure I quite understand exactly what you are saying. I hope you are not saying what I think you are saying so I was hoping for a clarification. tmk
It has been this revelation which has always answered me when I think on these things in the spirit. It is the foreknowledge of the Father which makes certain my understanding and peace.
Quote: "It is the foreknowledge of the Father which makes certain my understanding and peace."
And that is exactly what bugs the heck out of me.
I want to state as succinctly as possible what I believe havoc is stating and what you seem to be agreeing with, Andrew.
I respect your viewpoint- after all it is the view I think that the great majority of Christians hold, including my wife, mom and best friends. I believe that Havoc is throwing in some calvinism for good measure, which is another issue, but that is why I as asking him to clarify.
Anyways, here is my succinct summary of what I believe is being said by Havoc:
1) God in His good pleasure created human beings
2) He created them perfect, but they rebelled.
3) God knew in advance they would rebel.
4) In fact, in eternity past He had a provision for this rebellion, namely His son, Jesus
5) God knew/knows that the overwhelming majority of people who have ever lived will not accept this provision.
6) At some point in the indeterminate past God created a place called hell in which to consign those persons who never accept the provision of His son, Jesus.
7) Hell is a place of endless agony and torment and torture
8) It follows that the great majority of persons will end up in this place of eternal torment and torture.
In these statements, you find comfort in a loving and just God. I find a monster. Particularly because of #3, above. God is Love, He is Holy, and He is Just. How in the world is it any of these three things to throw beings He created and who He knew would rebel and who He knew would not accept Christ into a hell of eternal agony and torment? In other words, GOD CREATED THE SYSTEM. But what kind of system is that? You can say that God is God and He can do what he wants. Agreed. But the God I know would not do that. Let me rather say I hope very strongly He would not do that. I do not believe He would do that. If you believe it, then how do you know that when you die that when you get to heaven you won't hear a sinister laugh with the words "Just kidding" and that you will get tossed into hell too? After all, God can do what He wants and maybe that is just part of His system that we don't know about. You can't believe that would happen because it is absurd. I agree. And I think the points outlined above are absurd.
You see, if God knew in advance that certain persons would rebel and not accept Christ, then by gum they had no choice in the matter. There is simply no way around this. It would not be very nice of God to toss them into an eternity of hell, would it?
The reason why the foreknowledge of God gives me comfort is because it is the evidence that the Father knew from before the foundation of the world who would and who would not receive His son. If we look around us right now in those nations where the gospel has been preached how many men and women actually respond to the gospel?
In the end Revelation tells us that Hell and Death are emptied and that those who's names are not written in the book of life are cast into the Lake of Fire. We are told that Hell and Death themselves are also cast into the Lake of Fire. If we know that God is good then we must also know that he is Just and Righteous also. Whatever these terrible things mean in their fullness, as far as how men choose or reject Christ, or resist the knowledge of God, being evident in creation itself, are matters which can only belong to God Himself.
It seems to me that these difficult things only make sense in the context of reaching out to the lost in whatever way we ourselves are able to do. Therein lays some comfort at least. But I do have confidence that the Father has known from before the foundation of the world itself who would, in their lives reject and who would receive His son. If the Father had not revealed Himself through Christ no one could possibly find Him. Where would you go to look for Him? How would you lay hold of Him? As I said earlier there have been odd times when I too have struggled with these thoughts and in the end I have seen that to press them too far and to begin to curse the Father is a poor place to go to not least because He is Holy, Righteous and Good. There can be no comfort from seeing that there are some who will be cast into the eternal Lake of Fire. Whether that really does amount to so many souls as some suggest I cannot possibly know that anymore than any man can know it.
Thank you for your thoughts Andrew.
Many sects deny the deity of Christ and other essential truths due to using human reasoning and not believing God's clear Word on those matters.
We can try to argue all we want about the logic of eternal punishment, but if it is clearly taught in God's Word, which I believe it is, our arguments are against God Himself. If we deny these kinds of clear and essential truths we deny God Himself. If we believe that God is too loving to create an eternal hell(after being shown clearly that it's taught in Scripture), then we believe in another god, a god of our own imagination.
"But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; nor can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned."-1Cor.2:14
If we are still a natural man we need to be born again through genuine repentance and child-like faith in the Lord Jesus Christ.
I know from experience that new believers can struggle at first in understanding these kinds of essential truths. A case in point is in my initial struggle with the truth of the Trinity as a new believer. As a new believer I wrestled with that truth a bit due to hearing the oneness view. But eventually not too long afterward I humbly received the truth of the Trinity because it was clearly taught in Scripture.
There's a difference between that kind of struggle and a blatant denial of these kinds of clear truths after years of knowing they are taught in God's Word. I would question the validity of the faith of those in such a place. I believe that kind of blatant denial gives evidence of a lack of true regeneration.
I am going to paste your list TMK and say what exactly I believe.
1) God in His good pleasure created human beings
Yes and everything else including satan.
2) He created them perfect, but they rebelled.
In essence yes this is true but it did not take God by surprise.
3) God knew in advance they would rebel.
He planned this. He didn't just know it.
4) In fact, in eternity past He had a provision for this rebellion, namely His son, Jesus
Everything was created by Him and for Him. The plan was always to offer grace through faith as the only means of salvation. The entire Old Testament foreshadows this and all creation screams out redemption! Redemption! Redemption through death! None are without excuse.
5) God knew/knows that the overwhelming majority of people who have ever lived will not accept this provision.
They will hate God as they do now. Vessels for dishonor.
6) At some point in the indeterminate past God created a place called hell in which to consign those persons who never accept the provision of His son, Jesus.
They go to hell because they hate God.
7) Hell is a place of endless agony and torment and torture
Wrath of God specifically
8) It follows that the great majority of persons will end up in this place of eternal torment and torture.
The miracle is that we don't all end up there. Thanks to God through Jesus Christ I am redeemed from the power and penalty of sin!
"But the God I know would not do that. Let me rather say I hope very strongly He would not do that."
That's because you love the god you have made in your mind. And if I went to heaven and God cast me into hell I well deserve it. However God is faithful to fulfill all his promises. He promised eternal life to those who believe and hell to those who don't. But they don't get condemned because they didn't believe they are already condemned as the scriptures say.
Amen havok20x.
TMK, I will sincerely pray for you. One of the hardest things for us humans to understand is how the sovereignty of God can be reconciled with man's responsibility. But they are both clearly taught in God's Word. While God indeed is sovereign, He takes no pleasure in the death of the wicked-Ezek. 33:11.
While we have breath there is hope. Seek the Lord while He may be found, call upon Him while He is near. Humble yourself under the mighty hand of God, that He may lift you up in due time. Come as a child.
Oracio-
Please don't be patronizing. I love it how when someone on here disagrees with someone else's doctrine that they are accused of not being regenerated. Good grief.
Unlike you, I have studied this topic for several years. I have actually taken the time to read leading works of differing viewpoints.
So I take your statement that the traditional view of clearly supported by scripture with a grain of salt. It just isn't. Sorry.
Your (and others) solution to the dilemma I posted is to simply say 1) that's just the way it is or 2) we just can't understand the full workings of God's sovereignty and man's free will or 3) that's what the word says so you just have to go with it.
My solution is simply that there is no dilemma as stated. And that is not just my imaginings on the subject or wishful thinking or forcing God into a box as to how I believe Him to be.
Visit a website like tentmaker.org and take a look around. You will find answers there to any objection you may have. I know you would never be convinced but at least you would see the support for an alternate view.
Brethren as I read this thread I am reminded of Adam and Eve. They enjoyed unbroken relationship with God and complete freedom to do His will. There was only one prohibition given to them. Of course Satan tempts Adam and Eve and the rest is a sad reality we live in today.
Yet God, in His mercy, provided redemption through His Son. A salvation to save us from hell and bring us into a rich relationship with Him.
So why are you trying to figure out the infinite vastness of God with your finite minds. Particularly in debating the eternality of hell and why God created it. Yes hell is eternal and it was created by God. And the fallen angels and those who reject Christ will go there.
So are we going to question God as to why hell and say my God would never do that. I would say you are going to find yourself arguing against an infinite God and you will lose the argument. Job did that and when face to face with the sovereignty of God his face was in the dust.
Why do question the justice of what God does? Adam and Eve did that and it Got them thrown out of the garden. God, in His rich mercy, has provided for us rich blessings in that marvelous work of redemption on the cross. Should we not be thinking upon that relationship with Jesus? If we would but consider Him in whom are the infinite treasures of wisdom and knowledge that no one can ponder. Then questioning God on hell would be laid to rest. We would be thankful from a grateful heart He provided a way out through His beloved Son that would not suffer eternal wrath in hell.
My thoughts.
Blaine
Hi TMK,
If you are going to call God a monster, then you must expect some push-back? I have never met a Christian who did not believe that God knew men would rebel. So, you are saying, the God that 99% of Christians believe in, is a monster? And you are hurt and surprised by a negative reaction to that? Seems a little naive.
If God truly desired genuine fellowship, not programmed robots, then He had to allow free will. Free will is a blessing and a curse. Without it we would be mere robots, with it comes responsibility. To follow your logic, it would seem that you would be arguing against God creating us in the first place? ...........bro Frank
Pride is your problem TMK. That and a failure to understand who God is. Study the Old Testament especially psalms. They spell out the character of God as clearly as a man can understand. Do I know everything about God and His ways. No. But there are something's that I have just now began to understand especially about the sovereignty of God and His decrees
We are "elect according to the foreknowledge of God". God already saw the decision we would make concerning Him before He created the world, and our election is based on that.
We are "elect according to the foreknowledge of God". God already saw the decision we would make concerning Him before He created the world, and our election is based on that.
"So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy." (Romans 9:16)
Hi frank---
I am not hurt or surprised by pushback but I have to admit that I am not a fan of being called unregenerate by someone who does not even know me.
And I also am not very fond of being called prideful just because I disagree with someone else's viewpoint.
This whole issue is frustrating to me because of the extreme dearth of knowledge that Christians have about alternate views of hell. The reason that it is frustrating is because I was right there with you guys just a few years ago. But then I heard or read(can't remember which) a very good teaching discussing the three main views of hell. I did not realize that a very strong argument can be made that scripture simply does not teach the traditional view. It might but the case is much weaker than one might suppose.
But no one wants to take the time to verb cursorily look into these other views. I encourage this. I promise it won't hurt you.
I strongly suggest you all to listen to this powerful message from Keith Daniel titled the tightrope walker that is comprise to 95% of scriptures from both camps and gives the most complete picture I have yet heard from a preacher.
https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/mydownloads/singlefile.php?lid=19110&commentView=itemComments
The bible cannot be coined into a simplistic soterilogical system.
Man makes systems and the all have turned into monsters, just like Satan.
God is a person not a mechanism that throws dice over our eternal destiny or plays a version Russian roulette over our souls.
Grace is not fair, or it would not be grace.
TMK when you make statements that say that I don't believe like you because I haven't put in the time to study you are being prideful. Not only that but the fact that you make yourself out to be more moral than The Lord because you can think of a better alternative also makes you prideful. I agree that Dante's inferno is not scriptural but don't toss it all out
Hi TMK,
But let suppose you came to a position on one side, and you may have. Does that then mean you have liberty to tell anyone who has an opposite view to yours that their view makes God a monster or if they are correct then God is a monster? Does not seem like a good position for honest question asking?..........bro Fran
Hi Paul,
It does not take a wise man to grab a hold of a life preserver if he is drowning in the sea. No, he is simply a man who was willing to grab onto something presented to him and in that there is no boasting. It does take a foolish man to ignore the life preserver and when he drowns he has no one to blame but himself, he certainly cannot blame the one who threw him the life preserver.
Now, if those of the calvinistic persuasion want to count the grabbing on to the life-preserver as works and a future source of pride, then there is not much one can do with an argument that holds no water,ignore the pun :) ......bro Frank
It does not take a wise man to grab a hold of a life preserver if he is drowning in the sea. No, he is simply a man who was willing to grab onto something presented to him and in that there is no boasting.
P.S. Dear brethren, I am not arguing for or against Calvinism or whatever people want to call it. I am simply showing that the discussion can peel deeper and deeper when it comes to theorizing election and foreknowledge.
Query: what is the difference between God creating a hell and then creating man and just immediately tossing them in, and God creating a hell, then creating man knowing in advance that he would not jump through certain hoops to avoid hell and THEN tossing them in?
TMK, many JWs and Mormons have spent many years studying these issues also. But they have missed the truth as it is in Jesus. That's because of their pride and human reasoning and arguments against God's Word, refusing to humble themselves before God, refusing to take Him at His Word with child-like faith.
I am very familiar with that website you mentioned. The internet can get you caught up in serious deception if you're not careful. Satan is very cunning. There is a huge deception going on today as the emergent movement which questions God's Word is infiltrating much of Christendom.
Rob Bell's book "Love Wins" is a prime example of this type of deception. A good e-book I recommend for those getting caught up in emergent teachings is "Hath God Said?" by Elliot Nesch. You can download it for free. I don't have the link right now.
Here's the link to that book:
http://www.holybibleprophecy.org/2013/05/21/hath-god-emergent-church-theology/
2Pe 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
1Ti 2:1 I exhort therefore, that, first of all, supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks, be made for all men;
1Ti 2:2 For kings, and for all that are in authority; that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and honesty.
1Ti 2:3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour;
1Ti 2:4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.
If God truly desired genuine fellowship, not programmed robots, then He had to allow free will. Free will is a blessing and a curse. Without it we would be mere robots, with it comes responsibility. To follow your logic, it would seem that you would be arguing against God creating us in the first place? ...........bro Frank
It appears to me that this quote from bro Frank sums up TMK's whole point of contention. God's robots are great! His birds sing beautifully to His glory every day. Each member of the animal kingdom carries out its created purpose. Many serve as examples to teach humans lessons in morality (spiders ... lions... ants...).
God's creations that are not robots include humans and angelic beings. Angelic beings who do not fulfill their created purposes get no opportunity at redemption. THANK GOD there is redemption for humans!
We cannot define God by what He does for man. God is love is not a commodity He has to hand out to everyone, but God is love describes who He is (not what He has). And God was love before the creation of man so we cannot define God by man's needs otherwise like modern religion does on other levels we turn God into a utilitarian instrument, existing to satisfy men. He becomes our little genie in the bottle.
You have to understand God in a relational context and that He is looking for a relationship based on love and trust and faith and the freedom of choice He has given man. God does not impose His will on man into a faith-love relationship. On a human level we call this rape when one coerces another one into a "relationship".
Universalism is idolatrous because it has constructed a God that dispenses out benefits to everyone regardless of whether they have a relationship with Him or not. The benefits are then elevated to worship instead of God for Who He is.
God who is love, grieves over those who reject Him, "not willing that any should perish". And it is not God who has failed, He is not grieving because He failed man, love is reacting to those who have freely chosen rejection.
And, God does not impose death on man, or sentence man to death, as a consequence of sin, for death is only the alternative existence of "the one having the power of death, that is the devil” (Heb. 2:14). This is opposite the Spirit of Life in Christ Jesus. God does not send men to hell for their sin, for He is "not willing that any should perish” (II Pet. 3:9), but He respects man’s freedom of choice and will allow him to continue in the choices he has made into eternity.
Universalism makes Christ's suffering, death and resurrection, irrelevant. It makes light of sin, and does not understand the Incarnation. It robs Christ of His redemptive work in restoring God's life to those who are receptive to Him.
God’s attitude in all of this: "God is not willing that any should perish” (II Pet. 3:9). "God desires all men to be saved” (I Tim. 2:4).
God, who gave man freedom of choice, intends to respect that choice and indeed, He respects it every day as men do harm to themselves. But the ultimate harm that men do to themselves is eternal rejection of a relationship with Jesus Christ. This is the only life in which you can be saved. In eternity, your choices have been set.
When God created man with freedom of choice, He took the risk that man would reject Him. But that is Divine love and that love will not coerce or force men into a relationship they don't want.
Heaven will be full of people who willingly chose to turn away from the Evil One to the Holy One.
You see just-in- that is just what I am talking about. Your post makes at least two blatant misrepresentations of what Universal Reconciliation actually means. And I have no where stated that this is the position I even hold, although I admit it may be a possibility.
There may be a brand of universalism out there where there's no need for Jesus, everybody goes straight to heaven when they die regardless of what they believe or regardless of whether they repent. That's hippie talk, and bears no relation to what proponents of UR actually believe. UR believes in a hell of torment and that faith in the Lord Jesus Christ and repentance is necessary to avoid it.
Colossians 1:19,20 For in him all the fulness of God was pleased to dwell, and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether on earth or in heaven, making peace by the blood of his cross.
Ephesians 1:9,10 For he has made known to us in all wisdom and insight the secret of his will, according to his purpose which he set forth in Christ as a plan for the fulness of time, to unite all things in him, things in heaven and things on earth.
Romans 5:18 Then as one man’s trespass [Adam’s] led to condemnation for all people, so one man’s act of righteousness [Christ’s] leads to acquittal and life for all people.
Philippians 2:9-11 Therefore God has highly exalted him [Christ] and bestowed on him the name which is above every name, that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth, and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.
I Timothy 4:10 For to this end we toil and strive, because we have our hope set on the living God, who is the Savior of all men, especially of those who believe.
Revelation 5:12-13 And I heard every created being in heaven and on earth and under the earth and in the sea, and all therein, saying, "To him who sits upon the throne and to the Lamb be blessing and honor and glory and might into the ages of ages.
Romans 11:32 For God has consigned all people to disobedience, that he may have mercy upon all.
Philippians 3:20,21 But our commonwealth is in heaven, and from it we await a Savior, the Lord Jesus Christ, who will change our lowly body to be like his glorious body, by the power which enables him even to subject all things to himself.
1 Corinthians 15:22-28 For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ shall all be made alive. But each in his own order: Christ the first fruits, then at his coming those who belong to Christ. Then comes the end, when he delivers the kingdom to God the Father after destroying every rule and every authority and power. For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet. The last enemy to be destroyed is death. "For God has put all things in subjection under his feet." But when it says, "All things are put in subjection under him," it is plain that he is excepted who put all things under him. When all things are subjected to him, then the Son himself will also be subjected to him who put all things under him, that God may be everything to every one.
By narrowpath: A little poem about Hell\t
Hell
Pain that is never releaved
Regret that is never appeased
Guilt that is never eased
Captive never to be released
Desires that will never be pleased
Boredom that will never cease
Swimming in a lake of fire that will never freeze
______________________
Just wanted to say that I appreciated that you shared this here with us. It is a very good reminder to be praying for the lost and those who are deceived.
The poem is challenging to me because I have family that I love whom if they do not repent and turn to JESUS will spend eternity in hell. As I think on this I realize how vitally important it is to be in prayer for them and when given opportunity to share the things GOD places on my heart to share.
God bless
maryjane
You see just-in- that is just what I am talking about. Your post makes at least two blatant misrepresentations of what Universal Reconciliation actually means. And I have no where stated that this is the position I even hold, although I admit it may be a possibility.There may be a brand of universalism out there where there's no need for Jesus, everybody goes straight to heaven when they die regardless of what they believe or regardless of whether they repent. That's hippie talk, and bears no relation to what proponents of UR actually believe. UR believes in a hell of torment and that faith in the Lord Jesus Christ and repentance is necessary to avoid it. TMK
A quote from the site:
"Universalism as used by Gary and Michelle Amirault at Tentmaker Ministries is the "Victorious Gospel of Jesus Christ." It's all about Jesus Christ and His finished work on the Cross. It's all about Him and it's all GOOD NEWS and a joy to all mankind."
TMK this is one of the overarching statements which are made on the site you proposed when you said, ‘But no one wants to take the time to verb cursorily look into these other views. I encourage this. I promise it won't hurt you’.
I know that you already make the distinction, but for others I would say the point to note about this saying of Gary and Michelle Amirault is that, by very fact of the heresy of Universalism itself, they must qualify their teaching by the words ‘Universalism as used by Gary and Michelle Amirault’. In short the term ‘universalism’ it is claimed has many meanings and therefore it becomes necessary to make a separation from what they would no doubt see as a genuine heresy which also goes by the name of Universalism. To do that they clearly must distinguish between what they believe and what others believe.
That sort of thing happens in any publication where other views are also published and visible. So on the face of it this is not too much of a thing to pick on. The only problem however is that what is the effect of their teachings regardless as to what they say or what words they may use to avoid supposed wrong understandings of the term Universalism?
Gary and Michelle Amirault continue and say:
‘Today, while millions of Christians have abandoned the pagan concept of Hell as Scriptural, they are still very skittish about being branded a Universalist.’
Then they speak of those who have come on board with their teachings and quote their star pupil. As Follows:
"This is the best site I've found on the Internet in 20 years of Internet surfing. After believing in hell for the better part of 48 years I've now discovered the Amazing Good News of the Gospel. At first I thought it was to Good to be true having been one to warn others about hell. I've now discovered that this indeed is a false doctrine as much as I tried to find fault that eventually all mankind shall be reconciled to God. Scripture no longer contradicts itself. Unbelievable how we the church have been blinded. The material and research on this site is fantastic. Thank God for people who dare to think against the grain. A Big Thank-you. God Bless you for such great news. This was so awesome I just bowed my head and thanked God. Truely the Gospel of Jesus Christ is the best news. God saves all mankind. How amazing. Truely God is Love. What peace fills my heart.”
Therefore in simplicity without bathing yourself in the false balm of Satan we could say plainly that from Gary and Michelle Amirault who reject what they call ‘a pagan concept of hell’ and from their principle expression of the gratitude and effect of their ministry we have the words ‘After believing in hell for the better part of 48 years I've now discovered the Amazing Good News of the Gospel. At first I thought it was to Good to be true having been one to warn others about hell. I've now discovered that this indeed is a false doctrine as much as I tried to find fault that eventually all mankind shall be reconciled to God’, we have Universalism as they intend it to mean.
One would have to point out that behind the word concerning a so-called ‘pagan’ understanding of hell lays a clever argument and of itself needs to be exposed for the fraud it is. On the other hand we have the most unequivocal outcome of a man who now not only rejects the need to speak of hell as a consequence to unbelief, but believes that ‘in the end all mankind shall be reconciled to God’.
TMK that is Universalism and that is heresy. There is no way of getting away from it. Everything which is placed in between the idea of rejecting a pagan concept of hell and believing that all men will be saved in the end, is the slippery slope which leads straight into hell for the one who preaches it. The fact that this false doctrine which these two heretics prefer to call "The Victorious Gospel of Jesus Christ”, thereby rejecting the term Universalism, is just a vulgar and ignorant deception which can be easily taken apart both in Hebrew, Greek and plain English.
It is what it is and there is no mistaking it for anything else. If these two heretics are willing to parade their star pupil, who from their teachings, has come to the conclusion that in the end all men will be saved and spend eternity with God, then how can it mean other than it is presented to mean? How will its effect be other than the effect that it has already had on this one man? It is a vulgar and wicked deception and needs to be rejected because when those who have never even countenanced giving their lives to Christ as a response to the calling of God read these things, they will put their confidence in them and perish for eternity.
Christian universalism is basically an oxymoron and your stumblingblock with the word "all" in the verses you gave, shows that you fail to understand the whole counsel of God.
Yes, what Jesus did was for ALL, but not All will receive Him.
But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: But, we know also that "He came unto his own, and his own received him not." John 1:11-12
There are so many illustrations that Jesus gave. One such illustration is found in Luke 16:19-31.
Some spiritual truths that Jesus illustrates:
1. There is a wide "gulf" between those who are lost and those who are saved.
2. There is no crossing over.
3. Torment exists for the lost.
4. There is comfort for the saved.
5. If the dead returned to warn people they would not be believed. Isn't that the truth! Relatively speaking, very few have believed Jesus.
There is a teaching that nullifies the spiritual principles in this teaching, saying that it is really a story about Jews and Gentiles and has nothing to do with eternity.
Christianized Universalism does believe there could be a separation and punishment for a while for those who died not receiving Christ.
I always have my "antenna" up regarding the influence of the Jesuits inside Protestantism and this sounds like "Purgatory" to me. As such, this teaching opens the door to a one world religion. Christianized Universalism says that we will all be saved whether we want to or not in this life. You will be punished in the next life until you realize it is stupid to not accept Christ. This is what I was talking about in my former post. "On a human level, we call this rape", because you are forcing or coercing, relationship, but that relationship is not based on faith, trust and love.
God is not failing to save everyone when many exercise the freedom of choice that He has given them, to reject Him. The Bible says in Heb 9:27, "It is appointed unto man once to die, and then the judgment".
We know from the Scriptures that salvation can only take place in this life, while in the body. There is no need for faith in the next life. The life of Christ is only received by faith. Universalists fail to understand Soteriology (Salvation). They have disconnected the Person of Jesus Christ from the concept of Salvation.
Every form of universalism fails to recognize that the living Lord Jesus is Salvation Himself an that salvation is Jesus the Savior manifesting His "saving life” in a faithfully receptive (Christian) individual, now (Eph. 2:8) and forever (I Pet. 1:5).
Christianized Universalism fails to understand the Christo-Centric emphasis in the Bible and thinks that Jesus just hands out commodities of grace, salvation, rather than being salvation and grace. Christ is Salvation and Christ is grace. These "things" do not exist apart from Christ. When we fail to understand that "Christ is our life" then we view Him as a problem-solving, fix-it savior who dispenses the commodity called "salvation" to ALL who need it. This is not viewing Jesus Christ in a relational way, but in a mechanical way. It transforms the "Good News" and "Salvation" into a selfish, endeavor of acquisition, and makes it man-centric instead.
John 3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
We all know that "believeth" is not talking about the same belief that demons have of Christ's existence. This is relational belief. Someone who has received Christ and entered willingly, without coercion, into a faithful, trusting, loving relationship.
BTW, in that e-book I referenced there's a chapter titled "A Place Called Hell", which does a great job at explaining from Scripture the biblical doctrine of hell and exposing the unbiblical teaching of universal reconciliation, a false teaching held by many emergents and prominent emergent leaders such as Rob Bell.
Emergent Theology is a continuation of the repackaged Ecumenical movement which is a repackage of the Counter-Reformation of the RCC, which has never ended.
Christianized Universalism is part and parcel of Purgatory, repackaged.
The RCC plants their "scholars" in Christendom to introduce their doctrines which weaken the doctrine of Christ.
Most Protestants are unaware of RCC subterfuge. Wolves in sheep's clothing, doing violence to the Scriptures to ensure that we all "Come home to Rome."
If I lie to my friend I may lose his friendship. If I lie to my boss I may get fired. If I lie to my wife I may have to sleep on the couch, or she may divorce me if it has to do with adultery. If I lie in a court of law I may go to jail for perjury. Can you see how the severity of the consequence depends upon whom the crime is committed against?
If you lie directly to God He may strike you dead on the spot as He did with Ananias and Sapphira, or He may be patient with you as He is with the multitudes of humanity. According to the Bible, one single sin against God, even a single lie, deserves an eternity in the lake of fire-Revelation 21:8.
That’s because God is not a mere human being like us, though we do display some of His characteristics in a hugely finite way comparatively.
When we sin, we sin against an infinitely holy God, therefore each crime against Him deserves an infinite punishment.
What I mean by "infinitely holy” is that we cannot even begin to comprehend the fullness of the holiness of God. Angels cannot even come near Him without covering their faces and crying holy, holy, holy-Isaiah 6:2-3.
In Psalm 50:21 God gives this rebuke to sinners: "You thought that I was altogether like you”. We get in deep trouble whenever we try to bring God down to our level or think we can understand Him on a mere human level.
TMK,
"Query: what is the difference between God creating a hell and then creating man and just immediately tossing them in, and God creating a hell, then creating man knowing in advance that he would not jump through certain hoops to avoid hell and THEN tossing them in?"
Here is where your theology is way off base.
First and foremost the entirey of the universe is not about you or me. It is about God and His glory. God created things in this universe that no man has EVER nor will ever see. He created them for His own glorious purposes! I heard a good sermon the other day and the preacher said, "Would God be glorified if He put His most beautiful rose in a place where no one would see it?" The answer is yes! God doesn't need our acknowledgement or permission for anything in order to be glorified. Why? Because you are not the author of all creation. Does God need your wisdom or acknowledgement in order to be appeased? No. He doesn't need you at all.
Secondly, when you said, "knowing in advance that he would not jump through certain hoops" is very telling about your understanding of the Gospel. You see Jesus Christ as a hoop we have to jump through to avoid hell. He is a means to your end. The goal of the Gospel is NOT to help men avoid hell. It is to glorify God. You must understand something, TMK. You deserve to go to hell, even on your best day! I deserve to go to hell, even on my best day! Jesus Christ is not a means to an end--an end that belongs to mankind. NO! Jesus Christ died on the cross and shed His blood because God, in His gracious love, showed mercy to us--for the glory of His own name! So that all creation would marvel at the wisdom and beauties and perfections of God--things that we will spend eternity trying to grasp! The question you should be asking yourself isn't how can a loving God allow anyone to suffer in hell. The question you should be asking yourself is how can a just God let anyone in heaven?
So, because people simply cannot grasp that God would do anything without their consent and because they do not understand anything about the wrath and righteous fury of God and the incredible, undeserved, special love He has for His own, they create all sorts of little childish bedtime stories that say, "If God is love, He cannot send people to hell forever." Shoot. You and I deserve hell 10 times more than forever! Do you not understand how wicked we all are apart from a work of Jesus Christ?
When you speak about these two parties as they really are then you understand why God will allow them both to be the child of their [Ff]athers, who they have chosen. One must be regenerated in this life, in the body. There is no such thing in the next life. We are saved by faith...again...no need of faith in the next life where we will see everything as it is.
These two parties are:
1) The children of God
2) The children of the Devil
havoc-
First of all when I talked about jumping through hoops I was summarizing greatly nor was it meant to be a treatise on soteriology. A person must repent and believe in the Lord Jesus Christ to be saved. I have even said elsewhere in this forum that I believe a person who "get saved" out of self-interest is likely not saved at all. We submit to Jesus because He is King and deserves our submission. We do not submit in order to get something. But the fact remains that according to your theology God knew in advance that the vast vast majority of mankind would not repent and accept this provision. And He prepared an eternal hell of torment and agony just for them. That comes very close to saying that he PLANNED to torment the vast majority of humanity in hell for all eternity. You say that brings glory to God. I say it doesn't. We will have to agree to disagree on that point.
If you can give me some scriptural support for the concept that a sin against an infinite God requires infinite punishment, I would like to see it. I have heard this over and over again from various preachers but I don't know where the Bible says that specifically. Besides, "infinite" is not God's only attribute. Why do you pick that one? Why not pick forgiving, loving, or merciful?
God's own standard of justice seems to be "an eye for an eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, burn for burn" etc. At least that is what He told Moses. Or perhaps it is "Father forgive them for they know not what they do". Your idea of a sin against an infinite God requiring an infinite punishment is needed to get around this, because no one in their right mind would say that even if a person sins badly every day of their life that the fair and just punishment is an infinity of torture. So you have to resort to metaphysical mumbo jumbo about sins against an infinite God requiring infinite punishment. Scriptural support, please.
TMK, in other threads you've been shown plenty of clear scriptural proof for the truth of eternal punishment. But you have willfully rejected all of it and continue to do so.
This is a portion of a short article which I believe gives sufficient scriptural proof:
"The punishment of the wicked dead in hell is described throughout Scripture as "eternal fire” (Matthew 25:41), "unquenchable fire” (Matthew 3:12), "shame and everlasting contempt” (Daniel 12:2), a place where "the fire is not quenched” (Mark 9:44-49), a place of "torment” and "fire” (Luke 16:23-24), "everlasting destruction” (2 Thessalonians 1:9), a place where "the smoke of torment rises forever and ever” (Revelation 14:10-11), and a "lake of burning sulfur” where the wicked are "tormented day and night forever and ever” (Revelation 20:10).
The punishment of the wicked in hell is as never ending as the bliss of the righteous in heaven. Jesus Himself indicates that punishment in hell is just as everlasting as life in heaven (Matthew 25:46). The wicked are forever subject to the fury and the wrath of God. Those in hell will acknowledge the perfect justice of God (Psalm 76:10). Those who are in hell will know that their punishment is just and that they alone are to blame (Deuteronomy 32:3-5). Yes, hell is real. Yes, hell is a place of torment and punishment that lasts forever and ever, with no end. Praise God that, through Jesus, we can escape this eternal fate (John 3:16, 18, 36)."
Source: http://www.gotquestions.org/hell-real-eternal.html#ixzz2yug71BSl
Just wanted to say that I appreciated that you shared this here with us. It is a very good reminder to be praying for the lost and those who are deceived.The poem is challenging to me because I have family that I love whom if they do not repent and turn to JESUS will spend eternity in hell. As I think on this I realize how vitally important it is to be in prayer for them and when given opportunity to share the things GOD places on my heart to share.
Amen sister. I heard a pastor say once, "Never preach about hell without tears in your eyes." The thought of our loved ones in hell ought to bring about strong crying with tears, and a bold voice as well.
In Christ,
Ron
Quote: "praise God that through Jesus we can escape this eternal fate."
Amen to that. I agree wholeheartedly.
The scriptual support I was looking for was for the statement that a sin against an infinite God requires an infinite punishment.
TMK, I referenced Rev.21:8 for that statement. Did you look at it? It says liars will have their portion in the lake of fire, and it's clear throughout Scripture that the lake of fire is eternal.
How many lies does one have to tell to be a liar? How many murders does one have to commit to be a murderer? Just one.
You wrote:
Quote: "praise God that through Jesus we can escape this eternal fate."Amen to that. I agree wholeheartedly.
Also, remember that Jesus said it's better to cut off your hand and foot and pluck out your eye if they cause you to sin than to be thrown into hell fire with each pair.
When He said, "if it causes you to sin", do you think He meant more than one sin?
Paul writes........
"I agree. But this now begs the question of who gave the man knowledge that he is drowning? It could be wagered that any informed man would grab hold of a life preserver without hesitation if he really knew he were drowning - atheists and evolutionists and sin-loving criminals would all grab hold in a moment. So the question must be addressed: how is it so very few have sense enough to suddenly grab hold of Christ? Where did the enlightening knowledge come from which precipitated the grab for safety?"
Paul, I have seen so many drowning men in my life who knew the were drowning, but even in a state of almost hell on earth, refused to bow their knees to Jesus, choosing rather to die in this life and die in the next. And why? Total rebellion. A point blank refusal to bow the knee to God. So I must disagree with your premise. People choose a life on this earth without God.
Man lives because God breathed into them. And in that breath there is a knowledge of God. Call it his conscience, cal it what you may, but it is there. We learn in Romans that all men suppress the truth in unrighteousness. Suppress means to hold down. Now there is a grace ( unmerited favor)that goes before men, it is called Calvary. Jesus indeed died for the whole world, God would have that none would be lost. Yet this preceding grace, this inner knowledge of God can be grasped or rejected. I would agree brother, it is an astonishing thing that men reject God, but they do not do it in ignorance, they are guilty before a Holy God and will rightly exist for an eternity outside of His presence. .............. bro Frank
We know that God chose us before the foundation of the world, there is no question about that in the Bible.
But the question that has long been debated is, on what basis did God choose His elect? Was it based on foreknowledge of a choice we would make? And do humans really possess the ability to choose Christ in this life despite being dead in sin? Or is God's election based solely on His good pleasure without any reference to any human choice? I've wrestled with that question for years as a Christian.
I believe there are very good arguments on both sides. If God were to allow free will I agree with bro Frank that it would not be something to merit any boasting. But on the other hand, if it's not based on any human decision and God simply chooses to save some based solely on His good pleasure, and chooses to give the rest of mankind what they rightfully deserve in order to display His righteous wrath against sin, that would not make God unjust.
I lean toward the view that in this life man is so dead in sin that He cannot choose God apart from a divine work of grace, an effectual call of God. But I sometimes ask myself, could it be that in the eternal counsel of God He knew who would choose Him had they had an opportunity(though in this life they are too dead in sin to be able to choose Him), and that based on that foreknowledge He elected some to be awakened and effectually called? Yet Romans 9 seems to make a case against the view that election is based on any human decision at all.
The issue of Calvinism vs. Arminianism is one on which we can respectfully agree to disagree and still fellowship in the Lord because it's not that crystal clear one way or the other. But I believe the issue of eternal punishment is more clear and therefore there cannot be any compromise on that, just like we cannot compromise on other essential Bible truths.
Here is a man one generation removed from the first man on earth. You could almost say (loosely), "God was his grandfather".
But just look at the contempt that Cain has for God when God asks him where his brother was?
Gen 4:9 And the LORD said unto Cain, Where is Abel thy brother? And he said, I know not: Am I my brother's keeper?
"How do I know? Am I my brother's keeper?"
People don't just choose a life, they choose to be alienated from God, going against both their conscience and His voice. A life of alienation and hatred towards God.
The world cannot hate you; but me it hateth, because I testify of it, that the works thereof are evil. (John 7:7)
When a man dies, cast in a mold of alienation and hatred towards God, he will never change. Eternity sets the mold.
"He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still. And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, TO GIVE TO EVERY MAN ACCORDING AS HIS WORK SHALL BE. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last. Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city. FOR WITHOUT ARE DOGS, SORCERERS, AND WHOREMONGERS AND MURDERERS AND IDOLATERS AND WHOSOEVER LOVETH AND MAKETH A LIE." Rev 22:11-15
Despite being "dead in sin", which refers to spiritual death, men's choosing faculties are still very much alive and working. They exercise their God-given freedom of choice to "choose Christ". Otherwise God is mocking man, when HE commands him to "choose this day whom you will serve".
Regarding Election. God had predestined that those who chose Him should be holy and without blame. Those who chose Him were predestined to be adopted and receive His Spirit. Does God know the future? Of course. Does God coerce us to choose Him? Is that love?
Eph 1:4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, THAT WE SHOULD BE HOLY AND WITHOUT BLAME BEFORE HIM IN LOVE.
Many are called but few are chosen. Few are chosen because few answer the call and receive Christ.
I think for me these are some of the strongest passages of scripture that seem to support unconditional election:
"11(for the children not yet being born, nor having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works but of Him who calls), 12 it was said to her, "The older shall serve the younger." 13 As it is written, "Jacob I have loved, but Esau I have hated." 14 What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? Certainly not! 15 For He says to Moses, "I will have mercy on whomever I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whomever I will have compassion." 16 So then it is not of him who wills, nor of him who runs, but of God who shows mercy. 17 For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, "For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I may show My power in you, and that My name may be declared in all the earth." 18 Therefore He has mercy on whom He wills, and whom He wills He hardens. 19 You will say to me then, "Why does He still find fault? For who has resisted His will?" 20 But indeed, O man, who are you to reply against God? Will the thing formed say to him who formed it, "Why have you made me like this?" 21 Does not the potter have power over the clay, from the same lump to make one vessel for honor and another for dishonor? 22 What if God, wanting to show His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, 23 and that He might make known the riches of His glory on the vessels of mercy, which He had prepared beforehand for glory,"-Rom.9:11-23
"7 The Lord did not set His love on you nor choose you because you were more in number than any other people, for you were the least of all peoples; 8 but because the Lord loves you, and because He would keep the oath which He swore to your fathers, the Lord has brought you out with a mighty hand, and redeemed you from the house of bondage, from the hand of Pharaoh king of Egypt."-Deut.7:7-8
In Deut. 7:7-8 God seems to be saying in effect that His election of Israel out of all the nations wasn't based on any good thing He saw in them at all. And in Romans 9 the same principle seems to be carried over regarding salvation.
But again I must admit I still wrestle sometimes with this issue.
Lord have mercy- I hope this does not turn into yet another debate on Calvinism. Yikes.
Oracio- I know that you have posted verses that you feel support the idea that hell is a place of eternal torment. I get that.
But Havoc raised that old argument that says a sin against an infinite God requires an infinite punishment. I am asking for biblical support for that proposition. Citing verses that you feel supports the eternalness of hell does not answer that query. They are not the same thing.
Christ's death and resurrection was for all men.
Who is in heaven? Forgiven sinners.
Who is in hell? Forgiven sinners.
The difference is one group received His death and resurrection and forgiveness and the other group rejected it.
Salvation was brought to all men, all men have been forgiven but it only becomes efficacious to those who believe.
All men were elected to be saved. The grace of God has appeared to all men bringing salvation to all men, but most reject Christ. Jesus did not fail in bringing salvation to all men.
TMK,
Again, it goes back to faulty doctrine.
"God's own standard of justice seems to be "an eye for an eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, burn for burn" etc. At least that is what He told Moses. Or perhaps it is "Father forgive them for they know not what they do". Your idea of a sin against an infinite God requiring an infinite punishment is needed to get around this, because no one in their right mind would say that even if a person sins badly every day of their life that the fair and just punishment is an infinity of torture. So you have to resort to metaphysical mumbo jumbo about sins against an infinite God requiring infinite punishment. Scriptural support, please."
Your understanding of what sin is and the nature of a man is off-kilter. Also, this is not an issue about who can be the most logical and who can be be the most conclusive about things. This is an issue about what the Scripture says and what it does not say. It is highly inaccurate to say that hell must be infinite beacuse "sin against an infinite God requir[es] an infinite punishment." I am not sure who said that or why they think that is the reason why hell is infinite, but I can assure you, that is not the reason why I think so nor would I ever teach that. The reason is because the scripture plainly says it and because that is how God, in His infinite wisdom designed it. I do not have to do cursory readings or jump through all kinds of terminological hoops (I stole your saying...lol) in order to arrive at that conclusion. I just simply read the Bible and that is what it says. When Jesus says, "where the worm doesn't die and the fire is not quenched" automatically makes me think it is eternal. When it says, "shame and everlasting contempt" or "everlasting burnings" or "everlasting fire", then I tend to think it lasts for ever.
But let me show you some scripture from Isaiah 33 to show you the error in your thinking:
"Now I will rise,” says the Lord;
"Now I will be exalted,
Now I will lift Myself up.
You shall conceive chaff,
You shall bring forth stubble;
Your breath, as fire, shall devour you.
And the people shall be like the burnings of lime;
Like thorns cut up they shall be burned in the fire.
Hear, you who are afar off, what I have done;
And you who are near, acknowledge My might.”
The sinners in Zion are afraid;
Fearfulness has seized the hypocrites:
"Who among us shall dwell with the devouring fire?
Who among us shall dwell with everlasting burnings?”
He who walks righteously and speaks uprightly,
He who despises the gain of oppressions,
Who gestures with his hands, refusing bribes,
Who stops his ears from hearing of bloodshed,
And shuts his eyes from seeing evil:
He will dwell on high;
His place of defense will be the fortress of rocks;
Bread will be given him,
His water will be sure.
I chose these verses, not for the reference to hell, but because there are certain attributes of God, clearly being displayed in these--including His goal: His own glory.
He will rise up and exalt Himself and it will be recognized by all creation.
Mercy goes to those who trust in Him. Mercy is not, in any way, extended to those who hate Him once judgment occurs. God is being merciful to them right now by not plaguing them and stricking them all dead. He allows it to rain on them and grows their crops, etc, etc. The kindness of God is meant to lead them to repentance.
If they reject Christ, which is what it is when they do not become Christians, then there is no hope for them. No mercy. Nothing but the wrath of God remains for children of wrath, whose father is the devil.
So, do I have to give you verses that say hell is eternal? You've already heard them. Go read the scriptures and see what they say.
havoc-
I apologize-- it was Oracio who made the statement "When we sin, we sin against an infinitely holy God, therefore each crime against Him deserves an infinite punishment."
Not sure why I thought it was you. But I am still looking for scriptural support for this concept.
Would it do any good if I said that when Jesus talked about being cast into hell where the fire is not quenched etc that he was talking about an actual place just outside the walls of Jerusalem? And that he was actually referencing a passage from Is. 66--
"And they shall go forth and look
Upon the corpses of the men
Who have transgressed against Me.
For their worm does not die,
And their fire is not quenched.
They shall be an abhorrence to all flesh.”
Was Isaiah talking about hell? Or something else? Can a living person gaze on corpses in hell? Better yet, are there corpses in hell?
By A.W. Tozer
To be articulate at certain times we are compelled to fall back upon "Oh!" or "O!"””a primitive exclamatory sound that is hardly a word at all and that scarcely admits of a definition....
In theology there is no "Oh!" and this is a significant if not ominous thing. Theology seeks to reduce what may be known of God to intellectual terms, and as long as the intellect can comprehend it can find words to express itself. When God Himself appears before the mind, awesome, vast and incomprehensible, then the mind sinks into silence and the heart cries out "O Lord God!" There is the difference between theological knowledge and spiritual experience, the difference between knowing God by hearsay and knowing Him by acquaintance. And the difference is not verbal merely; it is real and serious and vital.
Thanks for that frank.
That's probably a great post to wrap up this discussion on.
I want you all to know that I enjoy these discussions. They may seem a little testy at times but i do understand where you are coming from. My heroes of the faith, like Tozer, take your position for the most part.
To me this is a nonessential issue because I don't plan on being in hell regardless of its duration.
God bless y'all.
C.S. Lewis on God's love and the incarnation as "the great invasion of God into enemy-occupied territory.” Since the Fall of man in the garden, "the whole world of mankind was held in the power of the Evil One” (I John 5:19). God sent His Son into this enemy-occupied territory, somewhat incognito, disguised as a baby in a manger in Bethlehem. Why did He use this low-key approach? Because God wanted to woo His lovers, not just overcome the world in an omnipotent power-play. Acting 180 degrees opposite of the world’s way, He employed the power of weakness, the power of humiliation, the power of Love.
In the area of love, there is an initiator and a responder. The Initiator NEVER forces a response. But love will "woo" a response which will be love from a willing heart, reciprocated.
"Acting 180 degrees opposite of the world’s way, He employed the power of weakness, the power of humiliation, the power of Love.In the area of love, there is an initiator and a responder. The Initiator NEVER forces a response. But love will "woo" a response which will be love from a willing heart, reciprocated."
This is certainly the God I know............bro Frank
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