Praying to kill Obamacare

Romans 13
New International Version (NIV)
Submission to Governing Authorities

13 Let everyone be subject to the governing authorities, for there is no authority except that which God has established. The authorities that exist have been established by God. 2 Consequently, whoever rebels against the authority is rebelling against what God has instituted, and those who do so will bring judgment on themselves. 3 For rulers hold no terror for those who do right, but for those who do wrong. Do you want to be free from fear of the one in authority? Then do what is right and you will be commended. 4 For the one in authority is God’s servant for your good. But if you do wrong, be afraid, for rulers do not bear the sword for no reason. They are God’s servants, agents of wrath to bring punishment on the wrongdoer. 5 Therefore, it is necessary to submit to the authorities, not only because of possible punishment but also as a matter of conscience.

6 This is also why you pay taxes, for the authorities are God’s servants, who give their full time to governing. 7 Give to everyone what you owe them: If you owe taxes, pay taxes; if revenue, then revenue; if respect, then respect; if honor, then honor.

NIV has corrupted the Scriptures as we can see in Romans 13.

The Constitution of the United States is a higher power than the tyrannical "governing authorities" which ignore the Constitution and Bill of Rights. These are the highest laws of the land, not tyrannical judges and senators who are NOT obeying the "higher powers" of the nation. Are we to obey those "governing authorities" who are disobeying the "higher powers"?

501(3)c has indoctrinated churches with heresy.

I am very glad Hobby Lobby and others are resisting Obamacare and other tyrannical, unconstitutional laws on the basis of their conscience and religious beliefs. Are they resisting God or tyranny against God?

We ought to obey God rather than man.

Supremacy Clause of the Constitution of the United States:
This Constitution, and the Laws of the United States which shall be made in pursuance thereof; and all treaties made, or which shall be made, under the authority of the United States, shall be the supreme law of the land; and the judges in every state shall be bound thereby, anything in the constitution or laws of any state to the contrary notwithstanding.

In Federalist No. 44, James Madison similarly defends the Supremacy Clause as vital to the functioning of the nation. He noted that state legislatures were invested with all powers not specifically defined in the constitution, but also said that having the federal government subservient to various state constitutions would be an inversion of the principles of government, concluding that if supremacy were not established "it would have seen the authority of the whole society everywhere subordinate to the authority of the parts; it would have seen a monster, in which the head was under the direction of the members".

HI Lysa,

"I understand the verse you posted Greg and I'm not trying to be disagreeable but had the Christians in the 1700's only sat back on that verse we wouldn't have the United States of America. And i don't want to start a politically charged thread so that's all I'll say on it!! :)"

In 67ad the Christians in Jerusalem fled to Pella. Should they have stood up and fought with their fellow Israelites against the tyranical Romans? When Paul is writing Romans, Nero is in power, making any king of England look like a choir boy. Was the early church just weak men who did not have the stomach to form armed militias and have a revolution against Rome? I really would like to know your answers to these questions, they are not rhetorical , for it goes to the logic of your quote above...........bro Frank

NIV has corrupted the Scriptures as we can see in Romans 13.

Oh sorry, my american friend, I fixed it below. I wonder what our friends in communist china would think this translation now.

Romans 13
New International Version (NIV)
Submission to The Constitution of the United States

13 Let everyone be subject to the Constitution of the United States, for there is no authority except that which God has established. The United States Of America that exist have been established by God. 2 Consequently, whoever rebels against the authority is rebelling against what God has instituted, and those who do so will bring judgment on themselves. 3 For rulers hold no terror for those who do right, but for those who do wrong. Do you want to be free from fear of the one in authority? Then do what is right and you will be commended. 4 For the one in authority is God’s servant for your good. But if you do wrong, be afraid, for rulers do not bear the sword for no reason. They are God’s servants, agents of wrath to bring punishment on the wrongdoer. 5 Therefore, it is necessary to submit to the authorities, not only because of possible punishment but also as a matter of conscience.

6 This is also why you pay taxes, for the authorities are God’s servants, who give their full time to governing. 7 Give to everyone what you owe them: If you owe taxes, pay taxes; if revenue, then revenue; if respect, then respect; if honor, then honor.

I remember hearing some one say that the U S Cistitution was just as inspired as the Holy Bible.

If I remember correctly a fair number of those at the Constitutional Covention were Diests and Masons. This included the moderator of the Convention, Ben Franklin.

But let us quote 2 Tim. 3:16 with a new twist.

All the U S Constitution is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for training in righteousness,

Nah. Even The Message is more appealing then the US Constitution.

Bearmaster.

Romans 13
New International Version (NIV)
Submission to The Constitution of the United States

Oh my I had to laugh at that one Greg! You really do have to throw that 'special' version of the NIV away. It won't do you any good at all.

Here what you will be up against if not:

America's Constitution is the culmination of the best reasoning of men of all time and is based on the most profound and beneficial values mankind has been able to fathom. It is, as William E. Gladstone observed, "The Most Wonderful Work Ever Struck Off At A Given Time By he Brain And Purpose Of Man."

We should dedicate ourselves to rediscovering and preserving an understanding of our Constitution's basis in natural law for the protec­tion of natural rights - principles which have provided American citizens with more protection for individual rights, while guaranteeing more freedom, than any people on earth.

"The end of law is not to abolish or restrain, but to preserve and enlarge freedom." -John Locke. [The] National Centre for Constitutional Studies

I suppose we could make that Romans Chapter 13b verses 1-10

Dear Havok, what a great reply. There are obvious idols and then there are not so obvious idols. Those who have been on SI for any length of time no my position on the issues of patriotism and how it can be a cancerous idol in the hearts of believers. Many things have been done down through the centuries for " the love of country." My citizenship is a spiritual one. Every human on the planet was born somewhere, but every genuine saint was born at the foot of the cross and we are fellow pilgrims, mere sojourners, ambassadors of another kingdom and another King, King Jesus. In the world when you become a citizen of another country, when you are " naturalized," you have to renounce all princes and potentates and pledge sole allegiance to the country to which you are becoming a citizen. As is in the world, so it is in the Kingdom. We are about our Father's business in the very short time that we are here..............bro Frank

Please tell me Paul was not appealing to man's law. What is wrong with Paul? Appealing to his Roman citizenship because of unjust treatment? He is just not as spiritual as the rest of us, I guess. Why didn't Paul just let himself be wronged, praise the Lord and go on this way?

Act 16:35 And when it was day, the magistrates sent the serjeants, saying, Let those men go.
Act 16:36 And the keeper of the prison told this saying to Paul, The magistrates have sent to let you go: now therefore depart, and go in peace.

Act 16:37 But Paul said unto them, They have beaten us openly uncondemned, BEING ROMANS, and have cast us into prison; and now do they thrust us out privily? nay verily; but let them come themselves and fetch us out.

Act 16:38 And the serjeants told these words unto the magistrates: and they feared, when they heard that THEY WERE ROMANS.
Act 16:39 And they came and besought them, and brought them out, and desired them to depart out of the city.

Amen, Bill.

We don't have to submit to man's laws which are contrary to God's character and expectations. Acts 5:29

We need to remember when Rom.13 was written one of the most depraved emperors was on the throne in Rome. His name was Nero. Not only was Paul telling the early Christians to submit to Nero. But also to pray for him in accordance with 2 Tim. 2.

It was only when Nero and the other Roman emperors declared themselves devine the early Christians would not submit them.

Like it or not (personally I do not like it) Obama Care it s law. It must be submitted to. But when Obama declares himself to be a god and requires worship, then I am on solid ground to say no. Of course this will probably mean my imprisonment and ultimately martyrdom.

Bearmaster

The only true authorities are those that God ordains who are under the authority of the Lord Jesus Christ and NOT ANTICHRIST. Romans 13 in the hands of the ungodly is an awful thought. Antichrist rulers are not "ministers for our good", only those who submit to Jesus Christ, are.

Hos 8:4 They have set up kings, but not by me: they have made princes, and I knew it not: of their silver and their gold have they made them idols, that they may be cut off.

I am NOT bound by the Scriptures to obey and support the man made antichrist governments of this world, but I am DUTY bound to live peaceably with all men as much as I possibly can. My loyalty, and obedience, is NOT to the state and its 501c3 contract.

I will obey the one whose Name is called the Word of God. No matter how the antichrist rulers of this world pervert, threaten, and illegally use the power of carnal force against me. I will obey God rather than men.

If apostle Paul was advocating obedience to secular authorities, then Caesar would have no cause against him. Why would Caesar have Paul beheaded if he was promoting obedience to Rome?

The truth is that Apostle Paul was beheaded for promoting a rival government known as the Kingdom of Heaven. Already this new government was turning the world upside down. Caesar had Paul killed to help stop this threat to Rome's power.

The reason that you don't see Christians being killed in America is because they are not a threat to the kingdoms of this world. They are part of them.

And you know something, I shouldn't and will not promote the Constitution as the Supreme Law of the Land (that is what it says in Article IV). No, the supreme law of the land (as far as I am concerned) is the Word of God.

There does not seem to be very much consistency to the claim that obedience to governments can only happen if that government is not antichrist. Since when was any government measured in such terms? Governments cannot believe that Christ has come in the flesh. Faith is personal not collective.

In China during the development and gradual takeover of the country by the communists (1921-1949), believers had the very real opportunity to decide how they were going to behave and act when the communists finally took power. Right up until the very end many believers preached the gospel, prayed for God's deliverance and then had to watch the Peoples Liberation Army march into their cities and take power.

For a short period, these same believers also had an insight into what it would be like to live under hostile conditions. This was during the Sino-Japanese war (1937-1945). The Japanese thought they could control the churches and tried to do so. Yet in Peking (Beijing) and Shanghai there were very different effects and outcomes to this controlling influence by the Japanese. In Shanghai the churches largely went underground and believers met in the homes of the elders of the churches, whilst in Peking, under the leadership of Wang Mingdao the church was largely left alone because Wang Mingdao himself simply refused to comply either to register with the Japanese or to hide.

When the communist take over came, Wang Mingdao took the same disobedient position as he did in the Sino-Japanese war and found to his utter surprise that the Chinese instead of just leaving him to get on with it, they threatened him with death. They put a gun to his head. At that point he knew that things were going to be different. In contrast the churches in Shanghai under the elders who had led the church underground, Watchman Nee was preparing them for the reality of what was to come under the hand of the communists. Their experience of obeying the Japanese Government, to dissolve the outward evidence of church, or register meant that the church in Shanghai was ready to follow the same approach with the Communists.

Wang Mingdao when he was first arrested and tortured refused to cooperate and of course he refused to yield up his faith. In the end he had a mental breakdown and signed the necessary forms. He was released and after two years of recovery he went and handed himself back in and declared that he had made a mistake. He received 23 years in labour camps and suffered greatly for his faith. When Watchman Nee was arrested in 1952 he refused to yield up his faith, but was in all other respects willing to be obedient. He was tortured and chastened for nearly four years and in the end the communists had no choice but to try him for political crimes rather than for his faith.

Today much of the underground church in china is the evidence of the difference in these two attitudes. I don't think that obedience to governments is a matter of choice, and I cannot see any justification for making spurious distinctions. If we are asked to yield up our faith then we can clearly disobey. If we are asked to hate our brother and sister we can disobey if we are able to resist to the end. But if we are asked to pay taxes, or sweep the streets or clear latrines or shave our heads or wear filthy clothes and give up our possessions we can obey because these things are of no consequence. These things can only mean an end to ourselves and an end to loving this world. In finality it will mean our adoption as sons when we are required to put of this corrupt body in order that we might put on incorruption. Now is the time to learn these things and we may not have as much time as we believe.

Wang Mingdao was not a faithless brother, quiet the reverse, but his experience in the Sino-Japanese war of openly disobeying the Japanese government in occupation of Peking, taught him a wrong lesson. Nee on the other hand encouraged the little flocks to obey the Japanese authorities in the Shanghai occupation and so they were able to prepare and learn how to live hidden lives and serve Christ from a position of being unseen by those in authority. We would do well to take the same position now whilst we can do so. Learn to obey and to suffer loss now, and then when the time comes to suffer complete loss we will not rebel and take up arms to defend ourselves or feel a need to betray our brethren because we have not yet learned to suffer for the sake of the Lord.

The hoopla from Christians here in the USA regarding Obamacare is not so much about a refusal to pay taxes or not wanting to obey the authorities, but rather about christians and christian organizations being forced to subsidize abortions, sterilizations, and contraceptives.

This is a violation of a believers conscience and has nothing to do with them wanting to rise up and overthrow the government. So I humbly suggest that references to overthrowing British rule or over throwing Nero are not really appropriate for a comparison for this particular topic.

Anyway, to the topic at hand, this law is loathed be believers for the above stated reasons and yes, Christians are actively praying against these things as they should, but not just praying, they are doing something about it. For example, Hobby Lobby have said that they will not participate in Obamacare because it violates their religious beliefs, and they are fighting this in the courts because the government are refusing to grant them exemption on religious grounds.

Before we jump up and down and denounce Hobby Lobby though I would encourage you to consider something of a biblical precedence regarding religious liberty in the bible. Act 5, the Apostles had been thrown into the Jerusalem prison under accusation of the Sadducees. Their trial was set for the next morning. However, when they called for the prisoners, the guards came back empty-handed! God Himself had sent an angel to release the apostles and commanded them to, "Go and stand in the temple, and tell the people all about this life.” God actively assisted them and commanded them to defy the government authorities when it came to issues of religious freedom. Peter then later explained to the convened Sanhedrin, "We must obey God rather than men.”

Of course the example in Acts is far more important one than the ACA and the stakes are not the same, but nonetheless, this passage does serve to give us a little peak into the mind of God and what we see is that God cannot be squeezed into our doctrinal boxes.

Rather than argue over who is right and who is wrong why can't we just let believers be led by the Lord in these matters? Why get uptight and argue...such a teeny-tiny issue in the scheme of things. If some people want to pray and fight against ACA...JUST LET THEM...we have much more important matters to be concerned about, right?

Awakened writes.........

"This is a violation of a believers conscience and has nothing to do with them wanting to rise up and overthrow the government. So I humbly suggest that references to overthrowing British rule or over throwing Nero are not really appropriate for a comparison for this particular topic. "

I humbly disagree brother. Believers, down through the centuries, have paid taxes to any manner of evil governments, starting with Rome. When the Romans extracted taxes from the vanquished nations and from property owners, do you imagine that the money was used for Godly enterprises? Nero himself used to dip Christians in oil and then set them ablaze to light up his parties at night. Should Christians and Jewish people have paid taxes to Nero's government?

At the very heart of the conception of the American experience lies rebellion and taxes. Nothing has changed, it is still the same. The Word says that God is not mocked, what a man or a nation sows, it surely reaps.

Yet in this vast nation there are millions of genuine saints and I thank the Lord that there is, for it is the light of the western world. Ravenhill suggested that a mere 5-7% of this nation was actually Christians. I think it may be more like 20%. Yet even if it is only 20%, that is almost 60 million genuine saints. God is calling His saints, His remnant saints to be readied for the final days of the ages. A great darkness draws near and the Satan himself is on the verge of unleashing evil on a scale never seen before or even imagined.

The remnant saints will be about their Father's business. They will draw closer to Him as that day approaches. They will draw closer to each other as that day approaches. The other 80% will be fighting each other over political ideologies. First there was nation against nation, then there is kingdom against kingdom. The Greek word for Kingdom is ethnos, it is where we get our word ethnic from. People groups hating and turning on one another. The greatest divide in people groups in America today? Right versus left, Republican versus Democrat, Capitalist versus Socialist.

The hatred amongst these groups is tangible. Let the world do what they must, but do not be counted in their numbers. We as the Body of Christ were not called into the Kingdom of God to rescue or sustain cultures, good or bad. We were called to turn the world upside down. We were not called to be a sub-culture but to be a counter culture. Can anyone really tell the difference between so much of what passes for Christianity today and the world?

Give to the world or Caesar what is his, but give to God what is His. What is His? All of you. To do this we must die to the cultural influences that course through our veins and come up higher. Genuine Christianity transcends the world and all of its cultures. Walk in the Kingdom, follow the King and be the ambassadors you were called to be. Our allegiance is to Jesus and to Him alone. Our identity is in Christ and Christ alone. Let us fight the fight that the Lord Himself has called us to fight, not with the weapons of this world or as the world fights whether in wars or in the political realms, but on our knees before a high and Holy God. This is our calling, and all the more as we see that day approach. Everything else? A distraction.............bro Frank

Hi brother Frank, Thank you for your inspired comments, as usual you have the wonderful knack of bringing us back to what is important:) I completely agree with you btw, but only as it relates in a general sense as to where our affections ought to be as new covenant believers.

In general yes, your points cannot be argued against, but specifically God has a different plan for each one of us. So, I personally want to be careful to not judge others according to my particular "filters". To one man it is right and he may sense he is being led of the Lord to engage the culture in a certain way, but to me I might see what he does as a complete and utter waste of time, as it pertains to Kingdom business.

There very well might be some application here from Pauls statements in Rom 14: "In the same way, some think one day is more holy than another day, while others think every day is alike. You should each be fully convinced that whichever day you choose is acceptable. Those who worship the Lord on a special day do it to honor him. Those who eat any kind of food do so to honor the Lord, since they give thanks to God before eating."

If a man senses that he is being led of the Lord to engage a certain issue then he must be fully convinced in his own mind and pursue this course in such a way as to honor the Lord.

I may not see the merit in challenging and/or standing up to this law or abortion laws or orphans, or homelessness or any other myriad of social ills, but I must be careful to not judge another mans servant. For all I know, God could very well be using Hobby Lobby and other individuals for His sovereign purposes. Because of my lack of omniscience, and as hard as this is for me to do sometimes, I must learn to trust the Lord to deal with His own servants.

With regard to "turning the world upside down". I agree, this is our calling, but are those who engage in things I do not deem so important, any less of an influence in the Kingdom of God as I am? I enjoy engaging and fellowshipping with so many brothers and sisters that I have come to know and love here and at SI conferences. But is this what we are doing here? Turning the world upside down? Until we are, perhaps we should exercise grace towards those who are fully convinced that what they are doing is honoring the Lord?

Hi Lisa,

One thing I have said and believe is that God's people need to step out in faith & learn to anoint with oil and lay hands on the sick b/c people are going to need THAT more than obamacare.

I really love your admonition here sister and I have a small testimony to encourage you and everyone else reading this.

A few days ago one of my daughters cried out late at night with intense abdominal pain...she was writhing on the bathroom floor. By the time I got there my wife was laying hands on her and praying. It seemed to be either an appendix issue or kidney/gal stones. As I began to pray for her, the fear that rose up was overwhelming...the enemy was screaming at me to rush her to the ER. I could not shake this from my mind but I knew it was not the Lord speaking to me about the ER but the spirit of fear.

And then like a clear shaft of light I heard the still small voice of the Spirit encourage me to stand on the Word of God, to pray for healing, to not go running to this world every time we had medical problems. I could sense the Lord pressing on me to pray in faith, to rebuke sickness and trust Him for healing. He spoke to me that He was and is my Source in everything.

As I continued to pray I became very aware of how much my mind had become molded to the pattern of this world and how much it was in need of renewal! Without knowing it I had automatically begun to think of medical care FIRST and to look to this world for my solution.

And then the thought came to me of what might happen in a decade or so if things really get bad for believers. no insurance, no jobs, no money? We might very well have NO OTHER OPTION but to pray and believe for God to heal us!!! What will we do then? If we cannot lay hands on our family and believe God for healing NOW, how can we expect to be ready when we have no other choice???

This brought about an renewed upsurge of faith in my heart and a deep desire stirred by the Holy Spirit to be rid of fear and a lack of faith. I sensed the Holy Spirit giving me a greater faith and just "knew" that the Lords healing power was breaking through in my daughter.

To finish the story off, we didn't take her to the ER (we sensed that this was a kidney stone) and by morning all her pain was gone and she was totally healed. All glory to God!!!

Now why is this story pertinent to the subject at hand? Because two weeks earlier we had DROPPED our medical insurance right after Aetna increased it by 50%, and this was insurance that had a $10k to $20k deductible.

I pray this encourages others to seek and trust the Lord first!!!

What is wrong with Paul? Appealing to his Roman citizenship because of unjust treatment? He is just not as spiritual as the rest of us, I guess. Why didn't Paul just let himself be wronged, praise the Lord and go on this way?

Because unlike us modern, impotent believers, Paul did not follow a squeaky-clean, well defined, box-set of doctrinal rules...

...he followed the living Christ, who gave him instructions on what to do at all times in each and every situation!

Just checking in…y'all been busy.

If a man senses that he is being led of the Lord to engage a certain issue then he must be fully convinced in his own mind and pursue this course in such a way as to honor the Lord.

Absolutely! We should not criticize the conscience of other Christians just because we can do something that their conscience would not allow them to do. Or we wouldn't do something that they choose to do. The key as Mike mentioned is if it honors the Lord, but then some of you who would not approve of what other Christians are doing (according to their faith and conscience) would probably not agree that they are honoring the Lord.

And who is talking about overthrowing the government?

You are also free to pray according to your conscience and the leading of the Lord.

Some Biblical examples of Civil Disobedience are Jochabed in preserving Mose's life: Exo 1:15 and Heb 11:23. Esther, in preserving God's people, Daniel 6:4-15 in his right to pray and worship. Peter and John (Acts 5), their right to preach the gosple and Paul, in his right to just treatment (Acts 16:35-40)

Outside of the Bible we have more examples of Civil Disobedience. The Early Christians who were regarded as law breakers because they would not bow to the Roman emperor or to his image. Martin Luther and John Bunyan (freedom of religion). American Revolution (tax protest), Abolitionists and the Underground railroad disobeyed government for racial rights. Then there was Dietrich Bonhoeffer and Martin Niemoller who resisted the Nazis. Anabaptists, Quakers, Mennonites, Brethren communities protested and resisted fighting in wars. What do you think about Operation Rescue protesting Abortion clinics or Hobby Lobby and other Christian businesses refusing to pay fees to Obamacare? How about the photographers being told (by court order) that they cannot turn down business from gays and have to film their weddings?

Our highest authority is God in Christ and yet we know governments are capable of great evil. Does submission to governing authorities mean uncritical obedience and blind submission? Are laws that are contrary to God's revealed will to be disobeyed? I do believe disobedience should be non-violent and those who engage in civil disobedience should accept the consequences. The Early Church was willing and Christians through the centuries were willing, are you?

Would you have defied Hitlers decrees and refused to turn Jewish neighbors over to the S.S? Would you bring Bibles into a country where it is forbidden to do that or even possess them? Will you defy the government and refuse military conscription or to participate in war? Will you disobey the law and refuse to pay taxes if the government was using them for evil purposes? Do we judge brothers and sisters who defy laws and protest abortion clinics? What about education? Would you disobey the laws to educate your children in a manner that is in line with your conscience and faith? How many of you would defy the law and refuse to salute the American flag? If you were a Christian in Cuba today, would you join efforts to overthrow Castro's Cuba. If you were a citizen in Germany during Hitler's reign, would you work against his rule? Do you disobey the law and drive without a seat belt? If the HPV vaccine becomes mandatory, will you disobey the law and refuse it for your daughters? Would you deceive the government and hide people they are looking to do harm to?

A friend of a friend of mine is a nurse who is training in new program in North Carolina. She told my friend John, that they are learning to place chips under the skin of babies and that this will be mandatory for adults by 2017. I don't know if she is a Christian but that is not the point of this story. The point is what she is being trained to do. Would you defy governmental laws to place chips on your babies and yourselves? Will you defy the government if they outlaw Bible studies in personal residences? Will you people that House Church defy the government if they say the only sanctioned churches are 501(3)c churches and we must only meet on their property. Would you defy the government if they mandate all churches have to be registered?

Clive Bundy just disobeyed and resisted the Federal Bureau of Land Management in Nevada (and won for now). Do you know about that story?
http://nation.foxnews.com/2014/04/15/cliven-bundy-harry-reid-i-dont-think-theres-any-hope-him-he-needs-be-kicked-out-office
http://www.politico.com/story/2014/04/cliven-bundy-bureau-of-land-management-10-things-to-know-105735.html

Supposedly, the BLM want to protect a desert tortoise until everyone found out that Harry Reid and son have a deal going with a Chinese solar company to set up shop on Bundy land and surrounding land. Harry Reid calls him and all the cowboys and bikers that came to his aid, "Domestic Terrorists". Will this be another "Ruby Ridge" or "Waco". Harry Reid says "this is not over". I fear the worst especially since the BLM showed up with two hundred militarized men including snipers.

Clive's family has been ranching on that land for 3 generations (since 1880's). The Federal Government has confiscated close to 85% of Nevada land. Bundy recognizes Nevada and will be happy to pay grazing fees to them but does not recognize the 10 square miles of Washington D.C. as his authority.

Is this bigger than Clive Bundy? Thank God enough cowboys and bikers showed up to outnumber the agents and snipers or there may have been shots fired. Would you have showed up if you lived nearby? As it was, some were tasered, a pregnant lady was thrown down and a senior citizen (lady) was thrown down, besides several snipers had their rifle sights trained on the people. How much is too much for people to take from an oppressive government and what would you do? Do we just let them herd us like cattle into the death pens? These are all serious questions and we may as well deal with them as the time is closely upon us. How shall we judge all these things and all these people?

How do you interpret the following verses? (Romans 13:3-4)

For rulers are not a terror to GOOD WORKS, BUT TO THE EVIL. Wilt thou then not be afraid of the power? DO THAT WHICH IS GOOD, and thou shalt have praise of the same: FOR HE IS THE MINISTER OF GOD TO THEE FOR GOOD. But if thou do that WHICH IS EVIL BE AFRAID; for he beareth not the sword in vain: for he is the minister of God, A REVENGER TO EXECUTE WRATH UPON HIM THAT DOETH EVIL.

Question: What is Good and what is Evil. If "The Minister" is Civil Government and not a Church Elder, then are our "Ministers" ministering good to us? Because, Paul is saying if we do good we will have praise of the same. And if "Ministers" are not ministering good to us, then are they ordained of God? God says, they are a "Minister of God to us for GOOD". Peter echoes Paul: "Or unto governors, as unto them that are sent by him for the punishment of evildoers, and for the praise of them that do well." Are evildoers being punished and are they that are doing well, being praised (credited with doing well)? Or is the opposite happening?

It seems that the "Ministers" are executing wrath on the those that do good today and the evil doers are being praised. Could Clive Bundy be experiencing this kind of oppression? Do we really know what we would do if we ranched on Nevada land for 3 generations and then the Federal Government wanted us to cease operations? I'm still thinking about that one. By the way, I don't know if Clive is a Christian or not, but it seems he stood up for his conscience and righteousness and justice sake and his cows and his family. Some of his cows did die by the way. I think that whole situation pales in comparison to what we will all be tested with, soon. But seeing what happened to Clive, gave me an insight into what the Feds are willing to do against American citizens.

Feedback is most appreciated.

Question: What is Good and what is Evil. If "The Minister" is Civil Government and not a Church Elder, then are our "Ministers" ministering good to us? Because, Paul is saying if we do good we will have praise of the same. And if "Ministers" are not ministering good to us, then are they ordained of God? God says, they are a "Minister of God to us for GOOD". Peter echoes Paul: "Or unto governors, as unto them that are sent by him for the punishment of evildoers, and for the praise of them that do well." Are evildoers being punished and are they that are doing well, being praised (credited with doing well)? Or is the opposite happening?

The Scripture does not tell us to obey all authority when that authority is good for us nor simply when authorities do good to us. There is no such qualification. To make one is to turn the Scripture on its head.

It is interesting that you mentioned the issue of land reform in Nevada.

When the communist came to power Watchman Nee got together 31,000 signatures from across the little flock churches in China to make an appeal to the new government to exempt their ministry training property in Gu Ling Mountains from the 'new' land reforms of the communists. In the case of the communists this simply meant stealing the land, period. In the end the communists themselves regarded the most serious crime against him to be resisting land reforms. The material nature of his crime was a signature list politely asking for exemption from Land Reform.

So let me get this right Just-In then. When you have done inciting others to rebellion, will you quietly go to prison for the rest of your life or is it just talk?

I do believe disobedience should be non-violent and those who engage in civil disobedience should accept the consequences. Just-In

Awakened wrote.........

" I enjoy engaging and fellowshipping with so many brothers and sisters that I have come to know and love here and at SI conferences. But is this what we are doing here? Turning the world upside down? Until we are, perhaps we should exercise grace towards those who are fully convinced that what they are doing is honoring the Lord?"

Is that a serious question brother? Do you really believe that when I wrote that Christians were to turn the world upside down I was talking about engaging on a forum?..........bro Frank

Brethren, respectfully, some of you who are hailing this man Bundy as a hero had better take a look at the facts. Other then the fact that the man is a law breaker and defying Federal authority. The militias are going to put their women and children out in front should a fire fight ensue.

Bearmaster

Brethren,,

As I read this thread I wonder if some do not worship the Constitution and their American freedom over the cross of Christ? I wonder if some have forgotten where their ultimate citizenship does lie? Yet their are those who would value their American citizenship over their heavenly citizenship. There are those who would value their American freedom over their freedom on Christ.

There are some who are hailing a Nevada law breaker as a hero. Whose supporters will put their wives and children out front in harm's way to avoid the Federal fire. This reminds of what the Islamic extremist do in Syria. Force women and children to go in front of them to shield them from government fire. Very cowardly.

The real heroes are those in foreign lands who live out the reality of their faith in Christ under governmental oppression. These believers are found in places like Eritrea or N. Korea. But then these are the ones who know where their true freedom and citizenship lie. There's is an eternal heavenly kingdom.

Bearnaster.

"For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to the evil." Clearly, God is speaking about GOOD government in Romans 13... because they are a terror to evil works, i.e., crimes. But what happens when our government becomes a terror in itself, committing blatant heinous crimes before our very eyes? The Word of God commands us to submit to HONEST government.

In the first place the 'good works' in chapter thirteen is the 'good works' you do, and not the 'good works' the government does. It simply means that governments do not punish people for doing what is lawful. Even in the most heinous government there has never been a compulsion on citizens to do evil things. The Nazi party couldn't actually make anyone do something which was evil. The Communists were the same, as was Russia and I feel sure it is the same the world over. This is because all of the people are never evil all the time. So even when there are evil governments and evil people willing to do their bidding, then there are still many people (the majority in fact) who would not do those things themselves.

No one has said that unquestioning obedience is desirable. How do grown men bring themselves to say such things as 'would you have handed your children over to be slaughtered by Pharaoh? Precisely how would you have stopped it Mr Pro? Throwing my newborn into the river could have been resisted to the point of death. Yet would that have prevented another throwing my newborn into the river. So if I refuse to do it, another man commits the evil deed instead. How then can I prevent him? I can take a sword and I can kill him. I rather thought that Moses did take this view of things to meet out justice in the sight on injustice, and that ended in Israel experiencing a further 40 years in slavery.

I do think that God wants me to submit to an evil government. What is the alternative Mr Pro? Precisely that is. Not some political flowery rhetoric, but some details which doesn't overlook the murders, rebellions, riots, insurrections and death of men women and children which I provoke in others when I set them an evil example. An evil government does not make way quietly does it? It is because I am capable of exacting vengeance on evil men that I have to ask myself this question very seriously. I have to meditate on it and seek the Lord's face. My concern is not with myself because I know how to resist evil men in the spirit. It is because if I see such injustice along the extreme kind which is presented by some here, re Pharaoh and Hitler for example, I would either have to lay hold of the sword and lay wast to men's bodies, or I would have to lay hold of the presence of God Himself and comfort those who are evilly treated. I would have the dread task of being a shepherd who leads the sheep to the slaughter house. Even if that means holding their hands. In the end the Lord will be their peace in a day of tribulation. Then when the work is done, they can do what they want to those who know how to resist righteously.

This is not some emotional exercise which we can play out in our minds. One day it will be a reality. It may look nothing like anything we have seen or comprehended before. How will we stand? Those who are able to resist evil and wicked men will have to do so in the spirit, and not for themselves, but rather for those who have no such understanding mind in that hour. But if we think that we can resist such a day of evil, so as to change the times and seasons ourselves, we will be taken with violence regardless, and men will still have to decide whom they are going to call upon when they are taken.

Miriam may well have broken the law of Pharaoh, but she obeyed the leading of the Father in heaven. Our concern ought not to be obedience to God, no matter what the consequence, but disobedience to authority when that has the effect of leading others into rebellion. Otherwise we are saying that Miriam ought to have gone around telling all the other Hebrew mothers to disobey Pharaoh. She did not do that did she? God's answer lay in one man. Until he had learned obedience the whole of Israel had to learn patience through suffering. In Christ, Who learned obedience through suffering, we now have our answer. It is the only answer and it is for all men. Christ will be our peace in that terrible day.

New thread started. I agree with proudpapa, return to the original subject. Quick correction for Bear: I see no one hailing Bundy as a hero. He is going to suffer the consequences of his disobedience.

But, is suffering the consequences of disobedience, mean you are somehow evil? The Early Church suffered the consequences of their disobedience, too. Anyway, go to my other thread to continue the discussion. I think it is a very important one because the hour is upon us. My apologies for taking this thread off track. Please continue talking about why someone cannot pray that Obamacare ends.

Excellent reply Andrew. It should be pondered brother by all of us............bro Frank

I also thought Andrew's response was very good.

Hi brother Frank,
No, you misunderstood what I meant. I am not speaking about writing on forums, but our lives in general. I was responding to your comment:

We as the Body of Christ were not called into the Kingdom of God to rescue or sustain cultures, good or bad. We were called to turn the world upside down.

My comment was that I love and enjoy the brothers and sisters I have met on this forum and at conferences but I don't believe as a whole we can be compared to the early church believers who actually did turn the world upside down.

My brain paraphrased your comment for the topic at hand to mean: "We as the Body of Christ were not called to oppose or pray against the ACA good or bad. We were called to turn the world upside down."

So what I was wondering then was if you are right and let's say you are right, then where is the evidence that those of us who grace these forums and attend our conferences, are actually "turning the world upside down".

I don't see it in my own life at least. And so, if this is true of all of us and until it can be said of us differently (as it is for the early church and others throughout history) then I am appealing to us all to show more grace towards those who feel differently about some of these non-essentials, such as praying against the ACA.

I actually disagree as I believe the Early Church did not follow some of the decrees and rules and laws of their day because they served another King and Kingdom. Would they comply with Obamacare? Would they pray for deliverance from it? Would it even be an issue with them? I wonder…

We will know if we are in tune with the Holy Spirit, because He is the same, yesterday, today and forever.

Would they pray for deliverance from it? Would it even be an issue with them? I wonder…

Good point Just-in and probably you are right. However we live in a different society that affords us more of an opportunity to have a small say in some of these laws which affect our lives in all kinds of ways.

Hobby Lobby believes God is calling them to oppose this law and who knows, perhaps He is? And yet, we have been quoting Paul appealing Caesar on the grounds of his Roman citizenship, so who knows? It's all just hypotheticals and so I shall repeat my mantra...why can't we just allow other brothers and sisters to follow The Lord on these and other non-essential matters?

We are all hard headed, opinionated individuals who approach everything with a lot of bias and always seem to leave these threads the same way, with the same bias, lol. So what do we accomplish? May each person be convinced of what he should do regarding the ACA...rightly or wrongly that's my take on it.

Unless anyone needs me to respond to something I said, I am bowing out...bless you guys.

by awakened on 2014/4/18 12:34:07
Hobby Lobby believes God is calling them to oppose this law and who knows, perhaps He is? And yet, we have been quoting Paul appealing Caesar on the grounds of his Roman citizenship, so who knows? It's all just hypotheticals and so I shall repeat my mantra...why can't we just allow other brothers and sisters to follow The Lord on these and other non-essential matters?

I absolutely agree with you. Love believes all things and so I am not suspicious of my brother's motives at Hobby Lobby or any other brother that is resisting the kingdoms of this world based on their conscience and faith.

We are all tested in many ways and soon, many of these things will no longer by hypotheticals to us. And for some of us, they aren't, already.

Brother Mark writes....

"So what I was wondering then was if you are right and let's say you are right, then where is the evidence that those of us who grace these forums and attend our conferences, are actually "turning the world upside down"

Mark, lets take the last meeting you were at in Missouri. Do you actually know any of the testimonies of the saints that were there? So many of those saints have been used to turn the world upside down and paid heavy prices to do so.

When we actually get to know people and take the time to listen to the testimonies of the saints, then we hear of just how the Lord is using them to turn the world upside down, one saint at a time. Granted, none of them have mega ministries and you will not hear them boast of their work for the Lord, but the Lord is using them mightily. In order to hear and know, it is important that we listen.

So many in the west have suffered the loss of their families and friends because they have come out of the world and came out of religion. They are only not killed because we live in an age and in a place where that is not acceptable, but not for much longer. But of course, if one is still a friend to the world and fully engaged in it and the culture, then they will escape the coming persecution. The culture in this country, in the broadest terms, splits into two groups. One side of the culture is conservative and typically loves political freedom and are generally capitalists, the other side is liberal and loves government intervention and social programs and so on. Neither side is Godly, they are merely a product of their world and both sides will eventually turn on the remnant saints. The very sad thing about both sides, but mainly the conservative side is that they try and make a virtue out of their "isms", when in actual fact they are as worldly, often more so, than their liberal counterparts, they are just more blinded to their worldliness..........bro Frank

Very good post, Frank.

Do you actually know any of the testimonies of the saints that were there? When we actually get to know people and take the time to listen to the testimonies of the saints...

Yes I do and yes I did listen...a lot, but i try to not only listen - I prayerfully help out as many as I can, in any way I can. Anyway, I respectfully want to bow out of this "discussion" because I am failing to get my 2cent point across and because I love you too much dear brother Frank to continue in this vein. Have a blessed day, I am going to work in the garden, it is a balmy 80degs down here!!!

Bro Mark writes........

"Yes I do and yes I did listen...a lot, but i try to not only listen - I prayerfully help out as many as I can, in any way I can."

Good for you brother...........bro Frank

I am listening to your precious testimony right now in fact...truly a wonderful testimony to the Cross of Jesus Christ. Thank you for sharing this tonight brother!!!

Thank you brother, I love my Aussie brother :).....bro Frank