Do you hate the Government?

Brothers and sisters. There continues to be an anti government movement within Christendom. At the center of this hatred for government seems to be taxes and the Federal government and Obama-care. Now, can we say we are standing on solid ground if we are caught up with land disputes and cattle grazing rights and other such worldly things?

Believers down through the centuries, have paid taxes to any manner of evil governments, starting with Rome. When the Romans extracted taxes from the vanquished nations and from property owners, do you imagine that the money was used for Godly enterprises? Nero himself used to dip Christians in oil and then set them ablaze to light up his parties at night. Should Christians and Jewish people have paid taxes to Nero’s government?

At the very heart of the conception of the American experience lies rebellion and taxes. Nothing has changed, it is still the same. The Word says that God is not mocked, what a man or a nation sows, it surely reaps.Yet in this vast nation there are millions of genuine saints and I thank the Lord that there is, for it is the light of the western world. Ravenhill suggested that a mere 5-7% of this nation was actually Christians. I think it may be more like 20%. Yet even if it is only 20%, that is almost 60 million genuine saints. God is calling His saints, His remnant saints to be readied for the final days of the ages. A great darkness draws near and the Satan himself is on the verge of unleashing evil on a scale never seen before or even imagined.

The remnant saints will be about their Father’s business. They will draw closer to Him as that day approaches. They will draw closer to each other as that day approaches. The other 80% will be fighting each other over political ideologies. First there was nation against nation, then there is kingdom against kingdom. The Greek word for Kingdom is ethnos, it is where we get our word ethnic from. People groups hating and turning on one another. The greatest divide in people groups in America today? Right versus left, Republican versus Democrat, Capitalist versus Socialist.

The hatred amongst these groups is tangible. Let the world do what they must, but do not be counted in their numbers. We as the Body of Christ were not called into the Kingdom of God to rescue or sustain cultures, good or bad. We were called to turn the world upside down. We were not called to be a sub-culture but to be a counter-culture. Can anyone really tell the difference between so much of what passes for Christianity today and the world?

The culture in this country, in the broadest terms, splits into two groups. One side of the culture is conservative and typically loves political freedom and are generally capitalists, the other side is liberal and loves government intervention and social programs and so on. Neither side is Godly, they are merely a product of their world and both sides will eventually turn on the remnant saints. The sad thing about both sides, but mainly the conservative side, is that they try to make a virtue out of their "isms”, when in actual fact they are just as worldly, often more so, than their liberal counterparts, they are just more blinded to their worldliness. Of course, if one is still a friend to the world and fully engaged in it and the culture,they will escape the coming persecution and more than likely be the persecutors.

Give to the world or Caesar what is his, but give to God what is His. What is His? All of you. To do this we must die to the cultural influences that course through our veins and come up higher. Genuine Christianity transcends the world and all of its cultures. Walk in the Kingdom, follow the King and be the ambassadors you were called to be. Our allegiance is to Jesus and to Him alone. Our identity is in Christ and Christ alone. Let us fight the fight that the Lord Himself has called us to fight, not with the weapons of this world or as the world fights whether in wars or in the political realms, but on our knees before a high and Holy God. This is our calling, and all the more as we see that day approach. Everything else? A distraction. .............. bro Frank

Hi prudpapa,

I have sympathies with all the names that you mentioned but do not consider myself in any one camp or another. If I were closer to anyone it would probably be Wilkerson and Tozer but pigeon-holing never really helps a conversation I have found.

At this time I am not prepared to go into a more in-depth explanation as to what I meant by that statement bro. Not because I do not want to answer your question, in fact, anyone who has been around SI for several years or who reads what I write on my own website would no where I am coming from. No, at this point I think it would be a distraction to the over-arching question that the post poses and that is " Do you hate the Government." I hope that makes sense to you brother?. My hope for this post is one of self-examination.

We are living in the end days, of that I have no doubt. And I believe the enemy of our souls is desperately trying to distract us from the purpose we who are of this generation were called to. We have been called to herald the return of the Lord Jesus Christ. We have been called to be a witness to the world. Most of all, we have been called to unity. And there is a growing unity, not a counterfeit, but a growing unity in the remnant Body of Christ. This, the enemy fears more than anything. So his most vital task is to distract and divide. A unified Body of Christ on the earth as a witness to Christ Himself and a fulfillment of the high priestly prayer of Jesus in John 17 spells the end for the enemy and the return of Christ. And so the enemy will shortly come after every genuine saint on the earth in an effort to shor-circuit the plan of God. It will fail. Yet, we, the visible witness, will be led like lambs to the slaughter and we will love our enemies. The Spirit of God will be poured out upon the Body of Christ as a whole, like has never been seen before because it will be worldwide.

Imagine if you will, a fragrant army of a Spirit filled remnant saints, so endued with power from on high that they can, like Stephen, in the very midst of persecution and death and hell, lift their hands and their heads to heaven, having a vision even in the midst of a terrible death and be full of love and forgiveness for the ones who are casting the stones. Jesus released this power when He cried from the cross " Forgive them Father for they know not what they do." Now brother, this is a hell shaking and destroying love that Satan himself has no answer to.

And so, if one presently hates the government and is taken up with fear and bitterness, how will that one love his enemies who will kill him? Now is the time to prepare, for this persecution is coming soon and it will be world-wide..............bro Frank

Hi proudpapa,

The overarching point of the post is " Do you hate the Government?" Do you? ............bro Frank

PP I guess I am a little puzzled by your position I grant you have done more reading in the Anabaptists than I. But if I remember from my readings of some of these saints they held to a view of citizenship in another kingdom. Citizenship, in a heavenly kingdom. This was what brought them into conflict with the temporal state.

In the movie, The Radicals, which is the story of Michael Sattler, it was shown the Anabaptist would not take up arms against the invading Turks. Or take up arms period. Take up arms for or against a temporal authority. They believed this went against the teachings of Jesus onthe Sermon in the Mount.

It has been several years since I have read Estepp`s book, The Anabaptist Story or Verduin`s book, The Reformers and their Stepchildren. But if memory serves the authors show Anabatist holding to a spiritual citizenship in a spiritual kingdom. They would submit to the temporal authority provided such submission did not conflict with the gospel teachings of Christ.

In actuality this is the teaching of the New Testament. Before the Anabaptist, the first century church saw they were citizens of a heavenly kingdom. They saw they were strangers and aliens bound for a heavenly home.

Though you did not ask me. I believe the American Revolution was unbiblical. Let me take it one step further. I believe the American Civil War was unbiblical particularly from the southern side. And I live in the South. I also believe our invasion of Iraq was unbiblical. I can go on and on. But I see that Christians who participate in war are not following the teachings of Jesus.

New Testament believers are called to a heavenly citizenship. The only war they are called to is a spiritual war. Their only weapons for thus war are the sword of the Spirit which is the word of God and the power of prayer.

My thoughts of course.

Bearnaster

"Do you hate the government"? Strange question. One I would expect from the government.

Does that imply we are supposed to love the government?

"Government" is a structure, we hate or love people. Some love to oppress, others hate oppression. Sins can be loved or hated. Men can be loved or hated, the government can be avoided to a point, but in this world there are things you cannot avoid. Men's laws and taxes surround you.

1Th_3:12 And the Lord make you to increase and abound in love one toward another, AND TOWARD ALL MEN, even as we do toward you:

Our love is to abound "toward all men", but this is not love for their deeds or their oppression, but rather their souls.

1Pe 2:17-18 Honour all men. Love the brotherhood. Fear God. Honour the king. Servants, be subject to your masters with all fear; not only to the good and gentle, but also to the froward.

Jesus said "pay your taxes". He did not say you had to love doing it. However, we must guard against bitterness. One can pay Caesar his taxes, not loving it and yet not being bitter, either. I cannot say I love paying taxes or love oppression or love injustice. I do not avoid paying taxes, because it is not worth it to my family if I am in jail for disobeying men's laws when Jesus clearly paid a tax Himself. Furthermore, I cannot say I love manipulation and control. The Spirit of God in me, hates it. God actually said, He hates unjust government. That is what the Nicolaitain spirit is, unjust spiritual government over souls and Jesus said twice that He hated it. So, in short, I hate what God hates and love what God loves. We see throughout the OT and NT that God hates oppression and injustice.

Do I recognize the oppression of government? Yes. Do I like it? No. Who does? Do I love the souls of individuals with government jobs? Yes.

My warfare is not against flesh and blood.

With that said, the Apostle Paul got caught up in a dispute about being treated unjustly as a Roman citizen and he appealed to Roman law. If an American has a dispute with the government then he/she can appeal to the laws in existence (last time I checked) just as Paul did. Just guard your heart, for out of it flow the issues of life.(Proverbs).

If you say the Lord set up the governing authorities for our good, then you must admit that He is able to work through the governing authorities (courts) that He set up, on our behalf. Maybe this is what Paul recognized. You cannot recognize one and omit the other. Even when Paul appealed to Rome, he knew his warfare was still spiritual and he had to guard his heart.

Somewhere it says and the government willbe on His shoulders. The government of His kingdom.

Bear.

Somewhere it says and the government will be on His shoulders. The government of His kingdom. Blaine

"For a child will be born to us, a son will be given to us; And the government will rest on His shoulders; And His name will be called Wonderful Counsellor, Mighty God, Eternal Father, Prince of Peace. There will be no end to the increase of His government or of peace, On the throne of David and over his kingdom, To establish it and to uphold it with justice and righteousness From then on and forevermore. The zeal of the LORD of hosts will accomplish this.” (Isaiah 9:6”“7, NASB95)

Hi just-in, it would only be a strange question if you were living in a vacuum. It's a fairly simple question and it is based on what we harbor in our hearts. Anger, fear, bitterness or even murder. And so the question, do you hate the Government? You can see I am determined to keep this thread focused :) So a simple yes or no will do :)...........bro Frank

I neither hate nor love it.

There are good aspects of government as well as bad.

I dislike brussel sprouts, but with a little vinegar I can stomach them pretty well. In fact they are pretty good.

With grace, I can even stomach government that I dislike and do.

So, you see, like brussel sprouts it is not simple yes or no.

Depends if I have any seasoning. Grace is indispensable.

Despite the sarcasm brother, I am glad to hear that you have no hatred in your heart towards the Government.........bro Frank

Andrew I would say that sun's it up. Summed up in Jesus. Thanks for posting the passage out of Isaiah.

Also glad to see someone else use the NASB. It's a hold over from.my days in the Jesus Movement.

Blaine

I suppose there are some people that hate any form of government but I have never met one. I would say there are people that hate many of the practices/policies of government yet at the same time see the need for limited government.

If you were referring to me regarding sarcasm, I assure you I was being absolutely serious. It is indeed God's grace that helps me stomach the injustices and not harbor any bitterness. How vain would it be to say no government at all is needed in a corrupt and fallen world?

Good question by Bill. Does government hate it's citizens?

We have 100,000 gang members in Texas and criminals spilling over the border, daily. Police are paranoid and tend to treat everyone as a potential terrorist. They have also been indoctrinated by Homeland Security to do that. Police today, tend to treat any questioning of them as potential terrorism.

Back to Bill's question: Does the government hate it's citizens? I don't know but I do know they have militarized their police (for what purposes?) and given away 13,000 MRAPs.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=S6Bu0jIgJdE

Are they paranoid? The government has outfitted 85% of towns with 50,000 or more people with MRAPs and LRAPs

I just love the government. (That was sarcasm). I don't trust their motives.

I suppose the Jews were supposed to trust their German government, too.

While I have no hatred in my heart towards the government, I am not under any illusions that they have my best interests at heart. It is enough for me to know that the Lord does have my best interests at heart and I fully realize that may involve temporary pain. Because, His interests are bigger than me (thank God).

Hi PP,

I think the question was asked and answered, I appreciate the fact that you have no hatred, fear or bitterness toward the Government, this thread obviously does not apply to you brother. The focus of this thread is one of personal soul-searching...........bro Frank

Sorry about that PP :) I think I was confused because there was no id. Anyway PP, my interest lies in people caught up in hatred bitterness and fear. I also have a different concept of what freedom means in Scriptural terms which I am sure we will not agree on. Since you are not caught up in hatred bitterness and fear then the rest of the conversation would simply be us disagreeing which neither of us need :) God bless you PP...............Bro Frank

Hi PP, my thoughts on what Scriptural freedom is has nothing to do with men or a single quote from Tozer or anything like that. There is a political freedom in this land and I acknowledge that, as there is political freedom in Britain and Europe and countless other countries. This is not the freedom of the Scriptures, this is a political freedom born of men's desire. I do not say that is a bad thing, but it is not the freedom that Jesus speaks of. I think it is common sense to use political freedom if one has it. If someone offers me a steak or a piece of spam, I am likely to choose the steak, but I do not need that steak.

The point of my post is to seek for soul searching by those caught up in fear and hatred and bitterness and paranoi about the Government. Now you may not know anyone personally who is caught up in such a deadly spiritual condition, but what has that to do with anything PP? Or you may claim that none of Christendom is caught up in fear and hatred and bitterness and paranoi, in that case, we would simply have to agree to disagree..........bro Frank

1 Peter 2:11-17 NIV
Living Godly Lives in a Pagan Society

11 Dear friends, I urge you, as foreigners and exiles, to abstain from sinful desires, which wage war against your soul. 12 Live such good lives among the pagans that, though they accuse you of doing wrong, they may see your good deeds and glorify God on the day he visits us.

13 Submit yourselves for the Lord’s sake to every human authority: whether to the emperor, as the supreme authority, 14 or to governors, who are sent by him to punish those who do wrong and to commend those who do right. 15 For it is God’s will that by doing good you should silence the ignorant talk of foolish people. 16 Live as free people, but do not use your freedom as a cover-up for evil; live as God’s slaves. 17 Show proper respect to everyone, love the family of believers, fear God, honor the emperor.

MJ writes.........

". In responding I will say that I am not caught up in the same addiction to current worldly affairs as I once was but I still recognize that there is work to be done in my heart on the matter. I now see how easy it can be for the enemy to use situations to harden my heart and steel my affections. I know I must be diligent in following HIM only."

As always sister, I appreciate your humble and transparent heart as you speak the truth............bro Frank

Good post Havok, you said it well.......... bro Frank

Bro Greg writes.....

"Living Godly Lives in a Pagan Society"

And of course that is the challenge. Peter writes......." live as free " not the freedom as the world creates or measures it, but as freedmen in Christ who in the same chapter are told to sumbit not only to the good master but also to the bad. Simply because a man has a master in this world has nothing to do with the fact that he is a free man in Christ. In the same chapter again Peter reminds us that we are, despite our political freedoms, whether slave or free in this world, priests in a Royal priesthood.

Should a man ever violate his concience if his master compelled him to do wrong? Of course not and he should gladly suffer the consequences of following the Word of God and the Holy Spirit............bro Frank

13 Submit yourselves for the Lord’s sake to every human authority: whether to the emperor, as the supreme authority, 14 or to governors, who are sent by him to punish those who do wrong and to commend those who do right.

It seems the Scriptures are clear that we should submit to human authority and respect it. To Hate government would be the anti-thesis of this. Of course we must obey God and not men when it comes to moral or scriptural beliefs.

Ting writes........

"I do not believe "give to Ceasar what is Ceasar's " should be used as an excuse do nothing when others are being taken advantage of or even abused. We are called to be a light and a beacon to the lost. We should never lose sight of that. However, we are not called to watch and do nothing when it is in our power to do good."

It is always the same old accusation. " An excuse to do nothing." The testimony of the Body of Christ on this earth is a glorious one. Ting, do you know how many saints have been martyred down through the centuries? Millions, it is in the millions. There have been more saints killed for their stand for Jesus than there has been American soldiers dead on the battle-field of men's wars. This is the light of the world, this is the testimony of the saints. When you pass on into glory ting, you can ask these dear saints why they did nothing..............bro Frank

Hi timg,

Quite the response to quite the broad charge brother. Do you know, some think that praying is doing nothing? And many wonder why they cannot see God move even although they get involved with politics and lobby congress and strive mightily in the realm of men, and men, slowly but surely regress as of course they will continue to. ( not so slowly anymore)

The last century was the most deadliest in the history of mankind. I have no reason to think this century will be any better, and according to Scripture, the last days will be like the days of Noah. Now what is my response to the fact that the days of Noah are upon us and will get worse? Just when we need prayer the most, you can barely get anyone to come to a prayer meeting. Yet, and I am sure this is not you brother, people will spend endless hours watching News shows and listening to talk radio who consistently encourage people to fight for their rights and to despise those who are not like them. They stand with their chests puffed out, declaring themselves to be the " makers," and heap scorn on those they consider to be the " takers." And in the same breath as declaring themselves to the world as the " makers," many then with another breath say that everything they have is God's and God given. It cannot be both.............bro Frank

brother Frank, this is not aimed at you and really doesn't help you in your quest to know why some people hate the government so please do not feel compelled to respond.

We should not hate the government, yet we should not make the mistake in believing that the government are the supreme authority over us either.

When the Apostle Peter tells us on to honor the King we must not check our brains at the door:) This is the same man, remember who did NOT honor the King when it came to certain issues and got imprisoned because of it.

There are God fearing believers right now in legal fights with the government because the government has told them that they cannot feed the homeless. One such case is a pastor in Oneonta Alabama who has been told by his friendly neighborhood government to stop handing out hotdogs and water to the homeless because he needs a permit to sell food. Yet he is not selling it, only giving it away. There are many more cases too, such as a woman who had been feeding hungry neighborhood kids for 22 years and was told to stop for similar reasons. Insanity! This old lady actually decided to disobey the authorities and feed the kids...naughty naughty!!!

Then there are the more "biblical' examples of believers who are forbidden from witnessing in public places by authorities...I think we all know what the right thing to do in this case is right? Honor the King? Yes, King Jesus!!!

So what should we do in all these things? Just submit to the authorities and honor the King? Maybe or maybe not. Each person must make that judgement themselves and be led of the Lord...AND BE PREPARED TO ACCEPT THE CONSEQUENCES!!! If they believe that the Lord is leading them to rise up and challenge authority then who am I to knock them down?

Same goes for believers who picket government funded abortion clinics or march on Washington in anti-abortion rallies. This is not my "cup of tea" but I certainly am not going to rain on their parade and tell them that they are wasting their time. Who am I to know the reasons they feel so strongly about abortion - maybe they had an abortion and then got saved and now want to save as many young woman (and babies) from the same horror? Let's leave them alone, let each one do as they have purposed to do in their heart, as long as it honors the Lord.

As someone else alluded already, when my brother feels differently to me about certain non-essential issues the Lord would say "what is that to you Mark...just follow Me."

Hi Tim,

Brother, I too believe we must be careful and considerate when we talk about such subjects. I appreciate the fact that you are weighing these things in your mind brother. As you know, I was responding to your " those who do nothing," statement. I refute, in the strongest terms, the notion that those who disagree with being involved with wars and politics are " doing nothing." That is why my emphasis was on prayer, something so many people pay lip service too but something so few people are involved with, perhaps you would disagree with that premise?

You write..........

"When the government that has been established by God to do good abuses that power and enslaves it's people and breaks the very law in which it has sworn to protect, Do we pray alone?"

Was government established to do good brother or was it established to rein in the forces of anarchy and chaos? It has been stated that the Pax Romana, the Roman peace of the time of Jesus allowed for the fast spread of the Gospel and that it was no coincidence that Jesus was born into that time. Th Romans did many wonderful things all at the same time as being completely barbaric, but the early saints were called to respect the authority.

Since you raised the subject of abortion Tim and the fact that you say you are called to help those who are helpless despite any law of a wicked Government. You write.....

"Have we no duty to protect the down trodden and oppressed when we are able? Do we just watch when we have been given a means to act?"

" Our government indorses murder, and we the people allow it. Should we pray alone or act using every conceivable way that God has given us to stop it?"

Now brother, that sounds wonderful. So let us say you have an abortion clinic in your town, which you may well have. So, you are quite happy to drive or walk past that every day? If war is correct, if you saw a person being attacked in the street and it is fine for you to attack the attacker or perhaps even kill the attacker if it is warranted , then why do you not go into the abortion clinic and kill the one who is murdering the babies? The law is clearly unjust that allows such actions, you say we cannot simply pray we must act, then why not act brother? Is it only words or should the children continue to die? You see my point? Of course I am not encouraging you to kill anyone, I am merely pointing out the logical conclusions of what you have put forward.

You see brother, I already know I live in a wicked country where the freedoms that men fight for, not Christ's freedom, political freedom, has led to this practice being allowed. The real truth is since there has been 55 million abortions, then there are 55 million murderers walking the streets and if they die in such a condition, they will be judged by a Holy God.

You see brother, I do understand it is a complicated subject.........bro Frank

Hi bro Mark, I see no daylight in our opinions on this subject. The topic is " Do you hate the Government." Has any one every claimed that the Government is the supreme authority? For the record, I have never told anyone they were wasting their time doing anything, well I take that back, I have made the accusation that millions of people spend endless hours watching news shows and listening to talk radio that certainly does not stir up Godliness in them :)....... bro Frank

brother Frank, this is not aimed at you...please do not feel compelled to respond.

:-)

Do you feel that the other points are meritless though? Oh well, I gave it my best shot...sniff, sniff:(

Hi PP, here is Matthew Henry's thoughts.........

"See here the character of an honest man. He sets God before him, and lives as in his sight. He makes conscience of what he says and does, and, according to the best of his knowledge, he keeps from whatever is evil, and cleaves to what is good. He is conscientious in all his words and conduct. Those who thus live before God, may, like Paul, have confidence both toward God and man. Though the answer of Paul contained a just rebuke and prediction, he seems to have been too angry at the treatment he received in uttering them. Great men may be told of their faults, and public complaints may be made in a proper manner; but the law of God requires respect for those in authority."

I think the key part is that Paul repents whether he knew or not, unless we are too suggest Paul is being facetious with his repentance. Now, PP, many have surmised that Paul had very bad eyes after being blinded. He says at one point that he was loved so much that they might pluck out their eyes and give them to him so it is very possible that he could not determine who was talking or ordering the slaps.......bro Frank

My dear brother Frank...beloved brother....for anyone reading this, let me state right now for the record, both here and in Heaven, my brother Frank is precious to me in the Lord, and I daresay the only person on this forum, I actually, regularly dialogue with, many many blessed chats, he knows my burdens and heartaches, I know his.

I praise and thank God I found ONE brother on this forum, that I can actually give my phone number and address to without ANY hesitation, more importantly to open my soul and heart to, authentic, transparent, fearless....such a person, Blood bought, Spirit filled is a BROTHER....eternal.

now why did I write all that, here's why , I don't even like the word "hate". Some could say God uses the word "hate"....of course, He's God, i'm not.

I wrote that above without reading any responses, because I agree with and amen, everything my brother wrote, every dash and iota, bare none.

I MIGHT go so far as to use the word "loathe"....as in I have ALWAYS loathed babylon.....the spirit of babylon, the whore of babylon. ....and babylon has been a traveling side show of satanic freaks, that thru the ages ALIGHT in one nations capital after another, brute beasts bred for destruction, cunning in a bad way, lusting after gold and flesh, smooth lies, subtle fornications, meaning they are quite adept at joining with a "church that is no church", containing a "god" or "gods" that are NOT God....so they can put an ABSOLUTE with their smooth lies....even going so far as to try and pollute Holy Scripture with the misappropriation of say....Romans 13.

How dare they.

Now I know what impelled a teenage David to sink a stone into the forehead of that satanic freak , goliath, regarding neither his comfort or even life of ANY account, listening to the foul evil braying of the brute beast goliath.

don't think for a second, when David was rushing goliath, he did not consider himself DEAD....in body, but alive in God ....and Messiah, though probably David had not been given the Vision of the Cross...yet.

David rushed toward goliath, Jesus "rushed" toward the Cross (albeit not before He had run His Course)...and Death was defeated.

there is so much more I want to write, but cant bear, God bless you all, neil

...even going so far as to try and pollute Holy Scripture with the misappropriation of say....Romans 13.

Dear brother Neil, you have a very engaging, animated way of expressing things lol. Please humor me. Exactly how do people pollute scripture by misappropriating Romans 13? And if you are right and they are wrong about this passage, why does this bother you so much...to the point that your thoughts stray towards "sinking stones into foreheads"...yikes:)

My brother from Missouri said I could have predicted the various responses, yes, true, not very hard. I am sure my own responses are quite predictable, I hope that is a good thing :) I do think you have hit the nail on the head though brother when you write.........

"They are lawless and have trouble submitting to any authority other than their own. I was blessed by pastor Sayid's remarks I read today. We must die to ourselves of we hope to partake of His glory.And some hate THE government. They become so wrapped up in the politics of what is going on that they actually come to a place where they harbor hated and bitterness toward those who lead. I will admit that there are times when, in my flesh, I do not desire to pay as I ought four my leaders, but I am commanded to do so."

They are indeed lawless those that hate the government. We are told to love our enemies by Jesus. They come up , as brother Neil says, many various ways to re-interpret scripture as to suit their own political motivations. But since no one on this site hates the government, then it applies to no one. What I found fascinating was the denial that anyone hated the government in Christendom with quote like " I dont know anyone who hates the Government."

If those folks are being truthful, then they must be spending their whole lives in a barn with the cows ( do cows go in barns, I am a city boy) I have had to talk quite a few brothers down from the ledge of hatred and bitterness when it comes to the government, not because I have any love for such a government, but because of the damage they were doing to themselves, their witness and the Body of Christ. I have had brave souls who have e-mailed me and confessed to it, God bless their sincerity and transparency. Thanks Neil, I feel the love bro :) Right back at ya and to all the brothers on this site. Transparency can be a brutal thing, but there is grace for the broken and the contrite and the humble dwell with the Lord ( that is a universal truth, so unless the shoe fits, no taking that personally please:) .........bro Frank

Hi bro PP, you write.........

"
///If those folks are being truthful, then they must be spending their whole lives in a barn with the cows///

I did not make that quote, but I did about chuckle when I read it because I just got in from milking :) "

That's hilarious bro, some may even say prophetic :) Maybe God is speaking to the man with the cows? .........bro Frank

Bro Tim writes..........

"Brother Frank, time keeps me from responding. I will have to kill my pride and just say that I pray that we all will act in a way that honors our heavenly father. In Christ alone."

Amen bro, killing pride is good and I would certainly say amen to acting in ways that honors our heavenly Father, right there, if we all acted this way, there would not even be a need for this thread............bro Frank

Hi PP, you write.........

"My personal feelings was that your statement may have been made because there is perhaps a certain american conservative country boy sterotype that you may hold resentment towards of which I might in some ways fit."

In response to the Lord, the lady at the well asked where one should worship. A controversy is always a good place for one to hide their heart :) No brother, I have no such resentment towards conservative country boys, never thought about conservative country boys. Maybe if I knew some, I would have resentments against them :) No, I think if someone who does not know you talks about spending too much time with the cows, it should at least make you sit up and take notice :) And keep milking of course, in a barn? ..........bro Frank

ps I have met few country boys that I did not like. I worked with a whole slew of them, was a Bricklayer for 25 years and worked with many a stubborn country boy, kinda reminds me of Scottish boys.

Hi PP,

I know that brother, I guess you missed the humor in my reply. Are you sure you a good old boy ? :)........bro Frank

Brother PP, in my experience, it takes a great big man to apologize. The origins of such an apology are undoubtedly from a humble heart. It is the humble who dwell with God. God bless you brother. I love you. .........bro Frank

I wrote this in the first paragraph of the OP .....

' Now, can we say we are standing on solid ground if we are caught up with land disputes and cattle grazing rights and other such worldly things?"

I watched an interview with that very man today, the man who refuses to pay for grazing, a law that Ronald Regan endorsed. He spoke of the Negro and how they never learned to plant cotton very well. He also talked about how they may be better of when they were slaves. There is a stampede of conservative talkers running a mile from this man, and rightly so. It just shows you how dangerous it is to publicly proclaim one's support for a man who is , at the very least, a violater of Romans 13 and simply a government hater. Hate and bitterness always comes from a place of darkness.......bro Frank

Saints,

We are thankful for some of the comments on this thread, a brother did bring to my attention the focus on government and arguing in these realms can result in un-edifying threads. I am thankful that we were able to discuss these passages in relation specifically to america not arguing overtly.

I think the bulk of edifying discussion has happened so we are going to lock the thread at this point.

this thread is locked.