IS HELL-FIRE ETERNAL?

The Words "ETERNAL TORMENT" do not appear anywhere in the Bible. The Bible does say that the wicked will be destroyed with "UNQUENCHABLE FIRE". Unquenchable fire cannot be extinguished, but goes out after burning everything to ashes. Jeremiah 17:27 says Jerusalem was to be destroyed with unquenchable fire, (2 Chron 36:19-21). Yet, Jerusalem is no longer burning.Matthew 25:46 says that the wicked will receive "EVERLASTING PUNISHMENT", but not punishing, which would be continuous. The punishment of the wicked is death, which is everlasting.(James 1:15). Sodom & Gomorrah were destroyed with everlasting, or eternal fire (Jude 7), and that fire turned them "into ashes" as a warning to "those that after should live ungodly." (2 Peter 2:6). These cities are no longer burning (Malachi 4:3).The word "FOR EVER" is used 56 times in the Bible in connection with things that have already ended. In Jonah 2:6, "for ever" means "three days and nights." (Jonah 1:17). In Deuteronomy 23:3, this means "10 generations." In the case of man, this means "as long as he lives" or "until death." (See 1 Samuel 1:22,28; Exodus 21:6; Psalm 48:14.) The fiery punishment for the wicked will vary according to individual sin, but after the punishment, the fire will go out.The devil will be cast into the lake of fire, be turned into ashes, and cease to exist.(Revelation 20:10; Ezekiel 28:18,19.)The word "HELL" is translated from several different words with various meaning: 31 times from "sheol," which means "the grave." 10 times from "Hades," whcich means, "the grave." 12 times from "Gehenna," which means "the place of burning." This is a transliteration of the Hebrew "Ge-Hinnom," which means the "Valley of Hinnom." This valley, southwest of Jerusalem was a garbage dump. Though, at one time it smoldered, it no longer burns.What about the story of the rich man and Lazarus? Many points tell us that it is a parable:A. Abraham's bosom is not heaven (Hebrews 11:8- 10,16).B. People in hell cannot talk to those in in heaven (Isaiah 65:17).C. The dead are in their graves (Job 17:13;21:30;John 5:28,29). The rich man was in bodily form - with eyes, a tongue, etc.D. Men are rewarded at Christ's second coming, not at death (Revelation 22:11,12).E. The lost are punished in hell at the end of the world, not when they die (Matthew 13:40- 42). If parables were taken literally, we'd have to believe that trees talk (Judges 9:8- 15).1 Timothy 6:16 says, that the Lord only has immortality. Satan told Eve the first lie in the garden when he said, "Thou shalt not surely die." The wicked are not immortal, but 1 Corinthians 15:53,54 tells us that the righteousshall "put on immortality" and live forever! (Romans 6:23; John 3:16).

I think your take on the difference between 'extinguish' and 'go out' is not really justified. The same word is used in "The foolish said to the prudent, 'Give us some of your oil, for our lamps are going out.' (Mat 25:8 NASB)The NASB has picked up both the tense, present; and the mood, passive. The complaint of the virgins was not that someone was extinguishing their lamps but that they were 'going out' of their own accord. Consequently your verses can be translated, as did the old Geneva version, by Where their worme dyeth not, & the fire neuer goeth out. (Mar 9:44 Geneva) Otherwise this is a pretty comprehensive list of the views used to support 'annihilation of the unbelieving'; is this your view?Jeremiah's judgement pronounced against Jerusalem certainly indicates that the fire would burn to its 'bitter end' without respite. But that fire was a consuming fire and consuming fires can only burn until all is consumed. Are spirits 'consummable'?

I would begin by paying heed to this quote by G Campbell MorganLet me say to Bible students that we must be very careful how we use the word "eternity." We have fallen into great error in our constant use of that word. There is no word in the whole Book of God corresponding with our "eternal," which, as commonly used among us, means absolutely without end. The strongest Scripture word used with reference to the existence of God, is–"unto the ages of the ages," which does not literally mean eternally. Let us remember however that the self-same word, which is thus used in connection with the existence of God, is also applied to the loss of the human soul. Men have divided the Church, separated from each other, and persecuted one another, upon a thought conveyed by an English word which has no equivalent in the Bible.

I would submit that "the ages" is the scafolding from which God carries out his plan. The ages are not eternity but I suppose as a figure of speech one may refer to somthing which extends to the end of the ages as forever. Even that which extended indefinitly into the future was referd to in the OT as being OLAM (kjv: eternal) for example the temple and the priesthood. To be 'cut off' for the ages is a terrible thing indeed. To lose out on the only chance that one will ever have to grow in this environment in which God has placed us.In relation to hell, Geheena is a word used almost exclusivly by Christ (James is the one exception) it would seem to be apocolyptic language directed to the Jews of that day upon whom all of the blood of the prophts was required. Hades is the unseen the realm of the dead. So the question is really will God's Judgment carry on eternaly. Hardly, judment which goes on forever achieves nothing.Anihilation, while appearing more merciful, is hardly God glorifying. A child will quickly discard somthing that doesn't go the way he wanted, the Potter will put the clay on the wheel again.Love never fails.Taco.

We have discussed the eternal nature of hell on other threads, but I wanted to share an article on Hell by Jonathan Edwards called The End of the Wicked Contemplated by the Righteous that had a most profound and sobering effect on me. He is said to be one of the most brilliant believers America has seen. God Bless,-Robert

Perhaps Edwards has said and done many great things.HE also said this The God that holds you over the pit of hell, much as one holds a spider or some loathsome insect over the fire, abhors you, and is dreadfully provoked. His wrath towards you burns like fire; he looks upon you as worthy of nothing else but to be cast into the fire. He is of purer eyes than to bear you in his sight; you are ten thousand times as abominable in his eyes as the most hateful, venomous serpent is in ours. You have offended him infinitely more than ever a stubborn rebel did his prince, and yet 'tis nothing but his hand that holds you from falling into the fire every moment. . . . Do you believe this?

Whether I believed this or not would not be a matter of a up or down vote; but by whether I was doing everything in my power to preach the Gospel. I believe in time we will look at Edwards words in light of what we come to know as the wrath of God and say- the man didn't have a clue as to how fearful it truly is to fall into the hands of the Living God. Yet, Jesus has even stronger words:But these mine enemies, that would not that I should reign over them, bring hither, and slay them before me. This corresponds to Jeremiah 34:"I will make the men which have transgressed my covenant as the calf which they cut in twain; I will divide them asunder as they divided it asunder."But if that servant shall say in his heart, My lord delayeth his coming; and shall begin to beat the menservants and the maidservants, and to eat and drink, and to be drunken; the lord of that servant shall come in a day when he expecteth not, and in an hour when he knoweth not, and shall cut him asunder, and appoint him his portion with the unfaithful.Hebrews said that those who despised Moses law died without mercy under two or three witnesses; how much sorer punishment shall he be thought worthy who have trodden under foot the Son of God and hath counted the blood of the covenant whereby he was sanctified and done despite unto the Spirit of grace. How much worse can it be than to "die without mercy?"The rich man being in hell lifted up his eyes being in torments (plural). Keep in mind that death and Hell are yet to be thrown into the lake of fire- which is the second death. Scripture speaks of a "bottomless pit" where the beast and false prophet are. "They shall be tormented day and night" is but one of a multitude of the descriptions of hell.Here is one small study on the topic. The District of Damnation.

the portion which you quoted from luke beginning thus:But if that servant shall say in his heart, My lord delayeth his coming; and shall begin to beat the menservants and the maidservants, and to eat and drink, and to be drunken; the lord of that servant shall come in a day when he expecteth not, and in an hour when he knoweth not, and shall cut him asunder, and appoint him his portion with the unfaithful.ends like this And that servant, which knew his lord’s will, and prepared not himself, neither did according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes.48 But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes. For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required: and to whom men have committed much, of him they will ask the more.If this teaching is in relation to eternal torment then what is the significance of many vs few stripes? An eternity of few stripes is hardly any less than an eternity of many stripes.The calvinist and the arminan can both put together an impressive list of scriptures to support their opposite views. So can the believer in eternal torment and he that believes in a final reconcilliation fo all. One must read in context and get the overall sense of the message of the gospel.To say that Christ Jesus ever said worse than Edwards "God abhors you" is in my opinion absurd. But I a am assuming (hoping)_ that you didn't quite mean that.The bible does speak of firey judgments but it also speaks of glorios redemption.Psalm 22 tells of Christs Crucifiction, his ressurection and the final outcome of his work.it ends like this :I will declare thy name unto my brethren, in the midst of the congregation will I praise thee.23 Ye that fear Jehovah, praise him; all ye the seed of Jacob, glorify him; and revere him, all ye the seed of Israel.24 For he hath not despised nor abhorred the affliction of the afflicted; neither hath he hid his face from him: but when he cried unto him, he heard.25 My praise is from thee, in the great congregation; I will pay my vows before them that fear him.26 The meek shall eat and be satisfied; they shall praise Jehovah that seek him: your heart shall live for ever.27 All the ends of the earth shall remember and turn unto Jehovah, and all the families of the nations shall worship before thee:28 For the kingdom is Jehovah’s, and he ruleth among the nations.29 All the fat ones of the earth shall eat and worship; all they that go down to the dust shall bow before him, and he that cannot keep alive his own soul.30 A seed shall serve him; it shall be accounted to the Lord for a generation.31 They shall come, and shall declare his righteousness unto a people that shall be born, that he hath done it.Amen.

You're taking him out of context and implying that Edwards was saying thats how God views every human, and thats not what he was saying at all.Good Lord no! I know that Edwards is preching to the unbelievers. But my dear brother, Christ died to save sinners from their sin because he loves them and because his Father loves them (jn 3:16) The haterd God has twoards sin is the same (but purer and greater) hatred I have twords anything that would destroy my children, including thier sin/disobedience. But I don't hate them! Neither does God hate the sinners.Christ died to save us from sin. Not just to take away its penalty.

The haterd God has twoards sin is the same (but purer and greater) hatred I have twords anything that would destroy my children, including thier sin/disobedience. But I don't hate them! Neither does God hate the sinners.Ultimately your doctrine will lead you to espouse Universalism. Understand that whilst it is called today, God so loved the world that He gave His only Begotten Son..., but when the day of God's grace has been sinned away and the blood of Jesus Christ trodden highhandedly under foot, then the wrath of God will be revealed. ALL of His wrath has been saved up for the day of wrath. Does God love Satan? I trow not! Yet, whilst there is opportunity for the children of Disobedience to hear His voice and turn to him- they might be changed into the sons of God, they might not be partakers of Satan's punishment. Yet, should they choose to be as he is they shall receive that which belongs unto him. Appealing to God's love will be of no consequence for a sinner who has trodden down the opportunity to receive that love. As far as the few and many stripes thing He is dealing with varying degreees of punishment. It has no connection to' time' or 'duration' of punishment. If a man were whipped for all eternity with a whip he is receiving 'few' stripes. If a man were whipped for all eternity with a cat o' nine tails he would be whipped with 'many' stripes.

I am copying this over to add it to the discussion. ******************HELL: The District of DamnationBy Robert Wurtz IIHell is the district of eternal damnation. It is a location that has been set apart to quarantine wickedness. Hell was created by God for the devil and his followers. Scripture uses many illustrations to describe Hell and none is more fearsome that that of Tophet/Gehenna. Tophet was a small valley southwest of Jerusalem which belonged to the sons of Hinnom. According to Jeremiah 7:31 the Children of Israel would come and sacrifice their children there to the false god Molech (I Kings 11:7,33; II Kings 16:3; Jeremiah 19:6, 11-14; etc.). Those Jews who had fallen into idolatry placed a large, bronze, hollowed out statue of Molech- shaped like a man and with its arms outstretched. A fire would be built within the statue that was fed by an air canal that made for a fierce heat. When the flames were intense and the arms red-hot the idolaters would place their babies onto the outstretched arms and hands. Some accounts say they would calculate the distance and throw the infant directly into the fire. The infants would die a horrific death; their skin would be burned off and their bodies burned alive. The screams and cries of the babies would be unbearable, even to these depraved people. Therefore, drums (tophim) were played to drown out the hideous screams of the infants to make the event tolerable for the parents who had all but quenched their familial love (storgos). Hence, Tophet, in the Hebrew, signifies the beating of drums. Tophet Becomes GehennaOver the coarse of time Tophet became synonymous with judgment and slaughter in Jewish history. King Josiah stopped the Children of Israel from making their sons and daughters “pass through the fire” and is believed to have been the person who made the area a garbage dump. Later, when Babylon came to destroy Jerusalem dead bodies were piled there until there was no room (Jeremiah 7:32, 33). By the time of Jesus, Gehenna was a trash dump that burned continually outside the city. The cities refuse, as well as the bodies of criminals, were thrown there. Gehenna was the 'visual' that Jesus used to illustrate what hell is like. Everything that we know of and think of concerning Tophet/Gehenna must come to bare. The fire, the screams, the burning of refuse; all of these are analogies as to what hell is. Hell is a place where the cosmic refuse of God’s creation is burned. It is a place where those who desire to rebel against the love and peace of God are quarantined and burned. Deep and LargeIn Isaiah 30:33 we read… For Tophet is ordained of old; yea, for the king it is prepared; he hath made it deep and large: the pile thereof is fire and much wood; the breath of the LORD, like a stream of brimstone, doth kindle it. Hell was created for the devil and his angels (Matthew 25:41). Had Satan opportunity, he would have turned Heaven into Hell. He is the enemy of ALL that Heaven is. He does not like the conditions of Heaven and brought war to it. We must understand that satan was not at home in Heaven once sin was found in him. He obviously enjoys the pains of Hell because of his behavior after 1000 years in the bottomless pit. He comes out only to ADD to the punishments that he justly deserves.God did not create hell for man; but man has chosen to follow Satan and Satan is headed for hell. I have personally known of demonized men to say; "why should I go to Heaven and worship God all the time." (and other unutterable things) It was then that I realized that this man by his own admission, would not be at home in Heaven. Therefore hell hath enlarged herself, and opened her mouth without measure: and their glory, and their multitude, and their pomp, and he that rejoiceth, shall descend into it (Isaiah 5:14). Hell has expanded to contain the multitudes that are walking the broad road following Satan who militate against all that is good. Why Teaching on Hell is Often NOT EffectiveIf there is one thing that characterizes our culture and generation it is one of the "here and now" and of "instant gratification". People go into extreme amounts of debt because of the need for instant gratification. They are bolstered by the idea that the payments won’t be coming for a month or a year or more. “No payments until next year” is a sales and marketing strategy that seeks to allure people by making the payment for their excesses seem more distant and in the future. A sober minded person sees strait through such a tactic and refuses to buy anything on such terms. The Devil, in like fashion tells people to go ahead and sin; because there are no real payments "until eternity". Because the sentence is not carried out speedily; mans heart is fully set in them to do evil (Ecclestiases 8:11). People do not fear things that are distant because they are distant. They think they will “cross that bridge when the get to it.” And cross over they will- over that great gulf affixed (Luke 16:26). I have heard it said that men spend their whole lives pressing the thought of death as far back into their minds as possible. How much more do they seek to bury the idea of unending flame?Another Reason Why Teaching on Hell is Often NOT EffectiveWhat are the tophim (drums) of our lives? What are we doing to drown out the sounds and horrors of hell? What are we doing to numb our minds to the reality of hell? What is the overarching distraction that is keeping us from focusing on hell? What do we do to put hell out of our minds? The horror of hell never changes; but there are things we do to put it out of our minds. Jesus said that if our hands or feet or eyes offend us we ought to do away with them rather than go to hell (Matthew 5:29). Many, rather than doing away with them do away with the thought of hell. Jesus also said that we should not fear men who can merely kill the body; but we should fear the one who can perpetually destroy our soul in hell (Matthew 10:28). Where is that fear? Why has the doctrine of hell not been as effective as it should be? Why are people so careless with their soul in the face of such unimaginable consequences? Why do people keep telling themselves that there is time to repent? Why do we "beat the drums of procrastination" or self-deception? Why don’t people want to hear it? Many haply travel the downward broad road of destruction with the thought that they will someday change. They procrastinate as though they will feel the need to repent any greater than now. Their unconscious policy is procrastination and it is among the most dooming of mindsets. It's as though people think that right in front of the gates of hell there is going to be an “exit” for them to take; but by then it will be too late. After they had spent as many lifetimes gnawing their tongue for pain as there is sand on the sea shore there will be yet one word that will haunt them the most: ETERNITY. They have been there so long and yet they will be there forever and ever. Nothing is worth that. Nothing is worth even remotely risking that. The enemy is beating the drums of indifference and deceit- we must hearken to the cries of God’s word as it defines hell. If there is a sinner in this house, let me say to him, Abandon all your excuses. You have been told to-night that they are all vain. To-night it will be told in hell, and told in heaven, and echoed from the ends of the universe, what you decide to do. This very hour may seal your eternal destiny. Will you submit to God to-night--NOW? (C.G.F Lecture X)

Understand that whilst it is called today, God so loved the world that He gave His only Begotten Son..., but when the day of God's grace has been sinned away and the blood of Jesus Christ trodden highhandedly under foot, then the wrath of God will be revealed. ALL of His wrath has been saved up for the day of wrath. All his wrath? Wasn't some of of it displayed on the cross. Did God hate Jesus Christ when he was on the cross? think not. So how then did he bear the wrath of God if God's wrath is hatred for the sinner. I submit to you that Gods wrath in Christ was against SIN. The cross was to deal with sin not with the penalty of it per se. Jesus became sin on the cross not a sinner. I have grat trouble with the idea that 'whlile it is today-God so loved the world' God's love isn't somthing that gets switched off at the end of one age or another. HE is love. And love without true righteousness is weak and sentimental. A love that will not deal with sin issurely no love at all. A love that leaves any quarter of this universe infected by sin is very hard for me to imagine.Anyhow I shan't belabour the point. It is not the empahsis on this site and I respect that. I have made my case as best I can.Taco.

I have grat trouble with the idea that 'whlile it is today-God so loved the world' God's love isn't somthing that gets switched off at the end of one age or another.Again, your views will lead you to Universalism which is heresy. If you believe that it is one thing, but for the sake of those who view these threads and the influence such words have in the enemies hands, I must contend. Did God hate Jesus Christ when he was on the cross? think not.This is a rhetorical question as we all know that the Father poured upon the Son our just recompense of reward. Now, that recompense has been laid upon Him, but it is the decision of the sinner as to whether or not that propitiation will be appropriated to that sinner. If the sinner responds rightly when they hear His voice and harden not their hearts they shall be saved from Sin and their sin(s); if they harden their hearts and stiffen their necks, neglecting so great salvation, and counting the blood of the covenant an unholy thing, doing despite unto the Spirit of Grace, then we know Him who hath said; vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense saith the Lord..." I submit to you that Gods wrath in Christ was against SIN. This question is one of many reasons why we cannot afford to merely toss out the teachings of Charles G. Finney. He writes; Sin is the most expensive thing in the universe. Nothing else can cost so much. Pardoned or unpardoned, its cost is infinitely great. Pardoned, the cost falls chiefly on the great atoning Substitute; unpardoned, it must fall on the head of the guilty sinner.The cross was to deal with sin not with the penalty of it per se. Jesus became sin on the cross not a sinner. I would challenge you to continue in your studies. Christ destroyed 'the Sin' for those who believe and potentially for those who rebel. He also paid the penalty for our sin(s) as He is the propitiation for our sins ('our' are those who believe). And love without true righteousness is weak and sentimental. A love that will not deal with sin issurely no love at all. A love that leaves any quarter of this universe infected by sin is very hard for me to imagine.Hell is the place where Sinners will be quarantined for all eternity. As the angelic host they sinned to which there is no cure. Though they desire to look into salvation, there is no salvation for them. I would further submit that they do not desire salvation any more than a sinner who sees it and prefers Sin over it. Human sinners who reject so great salvation love Sin and hate God. They are treasuring up wrath against the day of wrath. Rejecting Jesus Christ is infinitely the worst Sin that can be conceived or realized. The hideous nature of it will take eternity to sink in to those who do it. That man is seperated eternally from God apart from Christ and the price of propitiation being the Son of God shed His blood? And that when we were yet sinners and haters of God. When we could not have deserved mercy any less. When it is impossible to fathom the contrast between our utter unworthiness and His great sacrifice- to then trod so great salvation under foot- would be a sin worthy of infinite wrath both in severity and duration. If man could not atone for a single sin how would he atone for rejecting the only means of all his sins being pardoned? OH sinner run for your life! Run whilst it is called today! Run through the strait gate to the path of the narrow way! Run for the door of the sheepfold! You dangle as it were over over the pit of infinite ruin! Your tongue will be mangled beyond recognition the first day of thy suffering as you knaw it for pain. Why shall ye curse yourself for all eternity? Why spend the days of thy sojourn trembling with fear for the wrath that shall soon be thine! Anyhow I shan't belabour the point. It is not the empahsis on this site and I respect that. I have made my case as best I can.If I might compell you to once again gaze into the book from which all revelation is weighed. For the time would fail me to list the names of men greater than we that have seen through a dark glass the horrors of Hell's unending flame and have compelled sinners to run to Christ. Finney again asks; How often have you bargained to sell your Saviour for less than thirty pieces of silver! Nay, for the merest trifle! And if it were good had the man that sold him for 30 pieces had not been born; how much better had it been that the man or women who know such things in spite of these truths would sell their birthright to the sons of God or their espousal to Jesus Christ to have not been born?

Isa 61:8 For I, Jehovah, love justice,...(ASV)For God so loved the world..... but he that believeth not is condemned already. John 3:16-18God loves sinners, but its not the only thing He loves. He loves justice. If the children of obeidience get everlasting blessing, then the children of disobedience get everlasting torment. God loves justice. Life isn't fair, but God is.

There is an interesting article on Justice on sermonindex Justice By George MacdonaldHis language isn't always easy to follow but he has some very interesting things to say.

I find it strange that at the end of the day what we see being challenged over and over again; whether it be by MacDonald or even Charles G. Finney is the ultimate power and necessity of the blood of Jesus Christ. It is impossible for me to read these writings and not feel that. how can a man believe that "repentance removes the offense that no suffering could"? Is repentance the Savior? Moreover, it is highly improper to compare man and his beggarly understanding of justice and mercy to God. This is Cain beloved! This is Cain bringing the fruits of the ground in place of the blood. The blood has been shown of late to do everything BUT what it is primarily intended to do- to COVER our sin. It arises from a fundamental misunderstanding of covenant relationships between God and man. Breaking a covenant is a sorely serious offense. The penalty for it is meeted out based upon the voice of the blood of the Testator. The blood of bulls and goats could only speak revenge because it was their nature-riddled with sin, but the blood of Christ was worthy by virtue of paying the penalty to ask for mercy in accordance with Christ's personality. Christ had both the power and the desire to take away Sin and sins. The blood of bulls and goats had neither desire nor power.Simple 'mercy' does NOT take away an offense unless the one offended has the power and the willingness to right the wrong or if I might say, to balance the scales of justice. That is the fundamental difference between us and God in terms of forgiveness. We can forgive and simply absorb the loss of what we were suffered, but we cannot mete out justice and mercy together on all occasions. In accounting terms we cannot make the books balance. But when God forgives He does not simply "right off" the sin- He goes in and pays the loss with the blood of His Son. You cannot "write off" sin- the books have to balance and everyone has to pay up one way or the other. If God pays our debt we have the obligation from there on to forgive others. We CANNOT 'balance the books' in what they did to us as God could, we can only show a willingness to let what they did 'drop' and in trun the blood of Christ will make it right. We must have the 'willingness' to show mercy and in as much as in us we must; but we cannot show mercy as God can. He balances the scales (books) when He does it and He does it with the Blood. It is the blood that maketh atonement for the soul.

Bubba,The book of Romans helps to answer your question.For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law; (For not the hearers of the law [are] just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and [their] thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another;)In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel. (Romans 2:12-16)The work of the law is written on all mens hearts, our consciences bear witness to this. Even the most isolated aborigine in some jungle has a conscience and an innner knowledge of God's law. I believe that if that aborigine simply acknowledges that inner law and his guilty conscience then God will move heaven and earth to bring the gospel to that one man or Jesus Himself will minister to that man.Also, Jesus spoke of judgment for Sodom and Gomorrah being lesser than the judgment that would come upon Capernaum because Sodom and Gomorrah would have repented if they saw the works of God that Capernaum saw. This indicates to me that God will judge men's deeds but also their hearts and He knows how they would respond to the gospel even though it was never preached to them.God is perfectly just, no one will have a word of complaint against Him on the day of wrath, only the deepest regret for their unbelief. But we are not aborigines, you and I should both tremble at the responsibilty we bear for the revelation we have been given. I pray to God that we will be found worthy on the day of wrath to be counted among those who hear, "well done...".In Christ,Ron

George MacDonald was a universalist. I didn't know we had his stuff on our site.

George MacDonald was a universalist.I never heard of him, but reading that article was making me wonder.

George MacDonald was a universalist. I didn't know we had his stuff on our site.So were Sadhu Sundar Singh and Hannah Whithall Smith. Also featured on Sermonindex.Many saints with truly wonderful testimonies have been Universalists. Just because you don't believe this doctrince to be true does not negate the work of God in and through thier lives.The reverse is true also. People like Warnock, Nee, Sparks and Major Ian Thomas have truly blessed me. I don't agree with their belief in eternal suffering but yet I can see the hand of God in thier lives.

so tacodo you regard yourself as a universalist or an annihilationist?

Moreover, it is highly improper to compare man and his beggarly understanding of justice and mercy to God. I understand where you are coming from here. Gods ways are not our ways. Yet I remember Jesus asking his listeners to think about what they as earthly fathers would do for thier children and then he went on to say "how much more your father in heaven..." I think that some of what is preached as being God's heart is far below human compassion; never mind being above it! His compassion is at least as good as ours and then some and then some and then some...I don't believe that God is so 'compartmentalised' as many seem to think. He is one. His mercy and his justice are not two different streams. One day merciful one day just. Everything God does comes from the totality of his being. Even his judgments are in love. [qtuote]Simple 'mercy' does NOT take away an offense unless the one offended has the power and the willingness to right the wrong or if I might say, to balance the scales of justice. Surely this is not written as a counterpoint to anything Macdonald said?! If it was then please read the article again.

I would begin by paying heed to this quote by G Campbell MorganI was interested in this quote. Would you be able to tell me its origin? I have read much Campbell Morgan over the years and never picked out a universalist thread.You are right, of course, that the Hebrew and Greek words translated 'eternal' are both better translated 'age-during' as Youngs Literal Translation does. But that only means we are required to look at the context to get an indication of how 'long' the particular age is which is being referenced. Never the less, neither of these words have the mood of transience.

I regard myself as neither.But I haven't made any secret of the fact that I belive in universal reconcilliation. I thought I was quite clear, sorry if I was being too subtle :-? I believe that God will be All in all. Don't understand the finer points of howit will all work out but I certainly dobelieve it.I say that I am not a Universalist because I don't believe in cutting myself of from a huge section of the body and only aligning with those of similar escahtological viewpoints. Nor am I a member of a Universalist Church or denomination. But I do believe that universal reconcilliation is the doctrine which paul preached.Taco.

I have no notion that Morgan was a universalist. I very much doubt it. Sorry if I gave that impression. I was just interested in his view on the greek/hebrew words for 'eternity'wil chek out the source...

Surely this is not written as a counterpoint to anything Macdonald said?! If it was then please read the article againMacdonald did say something quite akin to this. But Rat Poison is 90% good corn, it's the 10% strict nine that makes it so deadly. Macdonald suggests that God must forgive as man forgives. He equates the method as being the same for both parties. God makes right what He forgives- not as man forgives and simply 'doctors the books' (as it were) to make it all jibe. One of the quotes that really rattled me was that he suggests that if man can forgive as man does than God should be able to do the same or man is more forgiving than God is. Moreover the entire argument Macdonald makes is a bizarre mix of truth and error. His main argument is defeated by Isaiah 53:5Surely he hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows: yet we did esteem him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted. But he [was] wounded for our transgressions, [he was] bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace [was] upon him; and with his stripes we are healed. All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.He has tried to argue that forgiveness can come without sin being punished. He has danced around the idea that if God must punish offences in order to forgive- so must we. Yet, Christ has borne the punishment for all of our sins. The question is, will a man respond rightly to the Holy Ghost that He might appropriate that sacrifice to the man in need. If he does He is justified- if he does not- he chooses to trod that sacrificial offering under foot. Shall a man trust in his repentance to save Him? Shall he trust in his perception of God's unfailing love and forgiveness? Or shall He respond rightly to God that by grace through faith he/she might have their sins forgiven and their heart replaced.

I was interested in this quote. Would you be able to tell me its origin? I have read much Campbell G. Campbell Morgan, GOD’S METHODS WITH MAN, p.185 I haven't read it. But the little i have read from the man is second to none. So his understanding on the word interested me. But that only means we are required to look at the context to get an indication of how 'long' the particular age is which is being referenced.I absolutly agree. But I am of the opinion that the ages do end. So that which is 'eternal' be it punishment or reward is everlasting in the sense that it lasts for the duration of the ages or a particular age.

Shall a man trust in his repentance to save Him? To be fair to Macdonald (wheter or not you agree with him) Hisanswer wouldbe a resunding no.One could as easily take Peters words in Acts 2:38 as meaning that repentence and baptism save us. Or his words in his epistle to mean that baptism saves us. And accuse Peter of not believing that Christ is the Savior. Of course Christ is the Savior. MAcdonald certainly believed that. I don't agree with everything from GMD but I think we ought to be fair to the man.His main concern in relation to the atonement was that men took shelter in theories of the atonement rather than in the God who atones. He lamented that people sought for imputed righteousness rather than His righteousnes that people simply wanted to escape hell but not be free from sin. To all of this I say Amen.I undersatnd your desire to gaurd against any attack on the work of Christ on the cross. You will get no such attack from me.I have a different belief than you in relation to the length of mens suffering in 'hell'. But I believe in the same Christ and the same cross.

Without getting into the morass of dispensationalism, the scripture clearly refers to 'ages'. Matthew 12:32 refers to 'this age' and 'that to come'. It is the consistent testimony of Jesus that this 'age' will culminate in fire and the angel harvest.There is a clear prospect that the blasphemer of the Holy Spirit will suffer 'age-long' judgement. but whoever may speak evil in regard to the Holy Spirit hath not forgiveness--to the age, but is in danger of age-during judgment;' (Mar 3:29 YLT) What 'age' would this be? It is plainly not the 'present age'. However long that age lasts, so long will the blasphemer's judgement last.Is that the same 'age' referred to in (Mar 10:30 YLT) who may not receive an hundredfold now in this time, houses, and brothers, and sisters, and mothers, and children, and fields, with persecutions, and in the age that is coming, life age-during; If this reference is to the same 'age' we have the prospect of one man experiencing 'age-during judgement' and another 'age-during life'. I presume that one will last as long as the other viz the duration of that age. Luke adds his testimony (Luk 20:35 YLT) but those accounted worthy to obtain that age, and the rising again that is out of the dead, neither marry, nor are they given in marriage; Here 'worthiness' results in the obtaining of that 'age' which follows the resurrection. How long is that age and will it be followed by yet more ages? Is there a final age? Yes there is. (Gal 1:5 YLT) to whom is the glory to the ages of the ages. Amen.(Eph 1:21 YLT) far above all principality, and authority, and might, and lordship, and every name named, not only in this age, but also in the coming one;(Eph 2:7 YLT) that He might show, in the ages that are coming, the exceeding riches of His grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus,(Eph 3:21 YLT) to Him is the glory in the assembly in Christ Jesus, to all the generations of the age of the ages. Amen.This last reference is key; it refers to the ultimate age, the 'age of the ages'. The Hebrew idiom is to double a concept to produce the ultimate, hence King of Kings, Song of Songs, Holy of Holies; each of these signifies the 'ultimate'. Paul the Hebrew uses a phrase here in Ephesians which makes reference to the ultimate age, beyond which there is no other. Anything which partakes of the age-during character of that age will be 'eternal' in our English sense of the word, without end; there will be no age to follow it.Any states of creatures in that age will also be age-during. Blessedness will be age-during, wihout end; and so will separation from God. There is a none-biblical definition of hell used by an old Methodist; "hell is truth seen too late". As long as there is consciousness 'hell' must then be the experience of those separated from God.

I absolutly agree. But I am of the opinion that the ages do end. So that which is 'eternal' be it punishment or reward is everlasting in the sense that it lasts for the duration of the ages or a particular agThis cannot be because these same words are used to describe the eternal existence of God and to be consistent we would have to believe that God will at some point also cease to exist. Again, eternity is running parallel with 'time' even as we speak. There will come a day when time will be no more. Time is a creation of God. It is important for us to understand your understanding of Universalism. This is a false teaching that has taken many forms over the centuries. In my opinion is is the single greatest heresy facing the Church today. Many are gravitating towards it inch by inch daily. Carlton Pearson is one of the more notable men to fall into this deception. Universalism can never glorify God. That is one of many flavors of such an error. It makes it all the more appealing and pious. God will be glorified when He is all in all. Yea verily! And while His enemies are eternally under His feet in flaming fire, having already bowed the knee to Him, He will reign forever and ever. His enemies will be in perpetual subjection though they may blaspheme for all eternity. One need look no farther than Revelation to see how man responds to fire and judgment. They knaw their tongues and shake their fists. The hotter the fire the higher the fist is raised in highhandedness. They are reprobate silver and though the bellows that fans the flames of hell be burned- yet the silver is not refined. They are eternally adokimos.

Paul the Hebrew uses a phrase here in Ephesians which makes reference to the ultimate age, beyond which there is no other. Anything which partakes of the age-during character of that age will be 'eternal' in our English sense of the word, without end; there will be no age to follow it.There is a final age yes. But that it is eternal I would have to disagree. The scriptures have words for endless (cf Christ's endless life). Why not use one of those words to describe clearly such a awsome doctrine as endless pnishment. Why use a word that in general refers to periods of time. When the ages are complete then the great work of redemption and ceration are complete. God is now All in all. What this measns and what happens then is too staggering for my mind. Much like thinking about 'before the ages'. Some say if eonian judgment ends then so will eonian life. Of course. The life which God gives us -which is enjoyment ofthe knowledge of himself (jn 17:3) is a tremendous gift in this age. When we are imortal its not eonian life that we will need. No words can even describe such a state.Some say that if the aions come to an end then Godmust come to an end because he is described as the God of the Ages. But is that not like saying that the God of Israel is not therefore the God of the whole world.

There is a final age yes. But that it is eternal I would have to disagree. The scriptures have words for endless (cf Christ's endless life). Why not use one of those words to describe clearly such a awsome doctrine as endless pnishment. R. C. H. Lenski observes that the expressions used for Revelation 20:10 are essentially intended to take man's understanding to the limit when attempting to describe an unending amount of time. He writes; "The strongest expression for our `forever' is eis tous aionan ton aionon, `for the eons of eons'; many aeons, each of vast duration, are multiplied by many more, which we imitate by `forever and ever.' Human language is able to use only temporal terms to express what is altogether beyond time and timeless. The Greek takes its greatest term for time, the eon, pluralizes this, and then multiplies it by its own plural, even using articles which make these eons the definite ones.

R. C. H. Lenski observes that the expressions used for Revelation 20:10 are essentially intended to take man's understanding to the limit when attempting to describe an unending amount of time. He writes; "The strongest expression for our `forever' is eis tous aionan ton aionon, `for the eons of eons'; many aeons, each of vast duration, are multiplied by many more, which we imitate by `forever and ever.' Human language is able to use only temporal terms to express what is altogether beyond time and timeless. The Greek takes its greatest term for time, the eon, pluralizes this, and then multiplies it by its own plural, even using articles which make these eons the definite ones. This quite simply cannot be true. As I pointed out there are greek words denoting endless. why not use these. You see, no matter what the length of an aion/eon it has na end and a beginning. Ron spoke of an infinite age but with respect that is mere conjecture. Any amount of time multiled is still a period of time. If somthing last for a year it may seem brief to us, if it lasts for years upon years it can seem almost infinite. An age would seem to be longer again but no matter the length even ages of ages come to anend.In revelation we see Christ reigning for 'the ages of ages' . You may say -"there now surely this proves that 'ages of ages' is eternity for Christ reigns for eternity'. But in 1Cor 15 we read of Christ reinging untill he has brought an end to all rule and principality and power (quoting from memory but its along those lines). I am not trying to imply that Jesus will be demoted after the ages, obviously neither was Paul. But a certain aspect of his work will be complete and the kingdom is handed over to the Father, God now becoming All in all. Just as he was All in and of himself before the ages now He is all in all after the ages. The purpose of the ages being completed. The dispensation of the fullness of times now being reached all things gatherd up into Christ. Does Christ deserve any less?

There is a final age yes. But that it is eternal I would have to disagree. The scriptures have words for endless (cf Christ's endless life). Why not use one of those words to describe clearly such a awsome doctrine as endless pnishment.If you are happier with 'endlesss punishment' I am happy to accommodate you. As I said in my earlier post I used 'eternal' in our usual English sense of the word. Is your objection to 'eternal' simply because it 'stretches' in both directions rather than everlasting which implies a beginning?Some say if eonian judgment ends then so will eonian life. Of course. The life which God gives us -which is enjoyment ofthe knowledge of himself (jn 17:3) is a tremendous gift in this age. When we are imortal its not eonian life that we will need. No words can even describe such a state.According to John 17:3 'eonian life' is 'ina' ie. in order that we may know God, not a definition of 'eonian life' itself. 'eonian/age-during' life is properly the life of the ages. It is not only quantitively different to mortal life, but is qualitively different too. This life is the consequence of the 'Spirit of Life in Christ Jesus' being imparted by which we become partakers of a divine nature. eonian/eternal life is God's own life not mere longevity. It is the 'charisma' of age-during life. (Rom 6:23) Are you saying that this is only for 'this age'?You seem to be suggesting that we have 'eonian/eternal' life 'until' we become immortal. Is not every human soul 'immortal' ie undying; whatever its destiny or do you hold to annihilation? Our bodies clearly are not immortal, but what about the soul?

If you are happier with 'endlesss punishment' I am happy to accommodate you. As I said in my earlier post I used 'eternal' in our usual English sense of the word. Is your objection to 'eternal' simply because it 'stretches' in both directions rather than everlasting which implies a beginning?the point I am making is that aionian does not mean endless nor eternal. Yes you are right eternal stretches in both directions, nicely put. But I am trying to say that if God wanted to use a word that denoted endlesness he had a choice of words to use rather than aion or is derivitaves.I basicaly agree with what you are saying in relation to Jn 17:3 we are given God's life in this age (and the coming ones).In relation to imortality, consider this:Do you have eternal life now? can you loose it? Can you loose your imortality?By the way I am really not trying to be contentious here. If the moderators donn't like this discussion I shall be silent. I know it is a very contoversol issue. But I am enjoying this. I like to be challenged in everything I believe, try to do it to myself but its not always easy to argue with oneself, I seem to always win. But I havent been challenged in an intelligent cival way on this issue in a few years. Its good.

By the way I am really not trying to be contentious here. If the moderators donn't like this discussion I shall be silent. I know it is a very contoversol issue. But I am enjoying this. I like to be challenged in everything I believe, try to do it to myself but its not always easy to argue with oneself, I seem to always win. But I havent been challenged in an intelligent cival way on this issue in a few years. Its good.I share your enjoyment! :-D the point I am making is that aionian does not mean endless nor eternal.Yes you are right eternal stretches in both directions, nicely put. But I am trying to say that if God wanted to use a word that denoted endlesness he had a choice of words to use rather than aion or is derivitaves.I know the word does not mean, of itself, eternal or unending but simply 'age-enduring'. My understanding is that there will be an 'age' that will not be followed by another; the age of the ages. This is an age without possible improvement and without successor; whatever is true in that age must be true endlessly, whatever word we choose. Where are the souls of men who have consciously rejected God during such an 'age' ? There are not many possibilities. They may be finally extinguished; annihilationism. Or they can have been 'purified' by 'fires' and having 'served their sentence' readmitted to God's favour; universalism. (a thorough going universalist must include Satan in an ultimate redemption.) Or they can be separated for God for the duration of that age (aeonia). I think we have to decide between annihilationism, universalism, or endless punishment. I can't think of other options can you? In relation to imortality, consider this:Do you have eternal life now? can you loose it? Can you loose your imortality?If we are going to answer these question we shall need to define 'mort'. ;-) Immortality is really 'die-ability'. God alone has absolute immortality; He has no die-ability. As a flesh and blood creation, as a member of the human race (just ;-)) I have die-abilty, as does my dog. But as regards my soul, does my soul have 'die-ability' in this same absolute sense. Can it cease to be?

I think we have to decide between annihilationism, universalism, or endless punishment. I can't think of other options can you? Have I not made it clear that I believe in universal reconcilliation? I should perhaps qualify that a bit. I am a bit like FW Farrar he was a hopefull universalist, he believed that many would be saved in the ages to come who are not savevd now. He hoped that it would be all but couldn't say for sure. I strongly suspect that it will be all. In fact I am so convinced of this that I am quite happy to say I believe in universalism. But I am aware of my own fraility of understanding, also of the humans ability to see things the way he wants, so I am open to change and correction. However, this is how I see things. At the moment I cannot hep it. It would be much easier to believe the oposite - Iwould have more friends if I did :-) . But I must be true to what I see as truth.

If we are going to answer these question we shall need to define 'mort'. Immortality is really 'die-ability'. God alone has absolute immortality; He has no die-ability. As a flesh and blood creation, as a member of the human race (just ) I have die-abilty, as does my dog. But as regards my soul, does my soul have 'die-ability' in this same absolute sense. Can it cease to be?I have no doubt that you are aware of the fact that Scripture speaks of 'eternal lfe' as being a present posession but imortality being a future condition. Yes?I am going to summarise how I see this. God formed man from the dust-body.He breathed into him-spirit. And he became a living soul.Soul seems to arise from the union of spirit and body. At death the spirit departs from the body. The body returns to dust and the spirit returns to God. I suspect that the spirit contains the 'genetics' of who I am. But 'I' am spirt soul and body. Hence the need for the ressurection my spirit is reunited with my (new) body.Notice that judgment is generaly referd to as being a post ressurection operation rather than a straightforward post mortem one as is often conveyed.I have no idea what kind of conciousness I have as a 'spirit' while dead. But death is not the end of the christians journey, there is somthing greater which paul hoped for and said without which our gospel is in vain-the ressurection.

A quick question for Ron.I have been thinking about your thoughts on the 'age of the ages' the final age. You say this is the last age. I too believe in a final age. But I am not sure if you believe that this final age is endless, or that at the end of this age everybody will stay in whatever state they are in but that the age itself will end. Do you see what I am asking? Just curious. BTW what do you think of 'the ages of the ages'?

This quite simply cannot be trueNot a good retort in such a polemic as this. eis tous aionan ton aiono are the words in question. This phrase shows beyond doubt that the physical torment of the wicked is forever and ever and ever. It is not a 'refining' it is "everlasting destruction from the presence of God." As it is written: when the Lord Jesus will be revealed from heaven with His mighty angels in flaming fire, dealing out retribution to those who do not know God and to those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. These will pay the penalty of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power, when He comes to be glorified in His saints on that day (II Thessalonians 1:7b-10)Error begets error. In this case you have a fundamental misunderstanding of what Hell is for. It is not for purification it is for punishment. It is for those who have rejected the blood of Jesus Christ. Can fire purge sin? Can fire cleanse the soul? If salvation and cleansing could have come by the means you describe then Christ is dead in vain! Man had been rightly thrust into this furnace until he had been prepared and fit for the presence of God. Who could conceive of a thought that would suggest that the flames of Hell could do only what the blood can do? If salvation could have come by the Law- Christ had not suffered as He did. Morover, if ANY means had been possible but His sacrificial death it had been taken to avoid the sufferings of the Cross. Hear the words of Christ- "If it be possible let this cup pass from me..." Again, once the door is shut there will be no more opportunity to be purified. They are all grievous revolters, walking with slanders: they are brass and iron; they are all corrupters. The bellows are burned, the lead is consumed of the fire; the founder melteth in vain: for the wicked are not plucked away. Reprobate silver shall men call them, because the LORD hath rejected them.The end of the wicked is to be burned. Thorns and briars are not purified they are to be consumed in the flames. Yet, spirits are never consumed as they are immortal. Hell is also a physical punishment as the word declares... "their worm dieth not." This fire is said to be unquenchable! It is a fire than cannot be put out by any means. Death in scripture denotes seperation. The soul seperates from body this is death. Soul seperates from God this is the second death. You mentioned that this is a rare civil discussion on this topic. In case you don't understand why so many have probably challenged you on it- it is because it strikes at the very root of the Gospel and the finished work of the Cross. You are espousing a cultic view of Hell and eternal punishment. Not a lot different than had we been discussing with a Jehovah's Witness. Think it not strange that when you contend such things that there would be "no small dispute among them..." or even beyond. Some folks know it is false and cannot articulate your error and therefor get upset. They are "earnestly contending for the faith that was once delivered to the Saints... in the best way they know how. I can't say I blame them.

Have I not made it clear that I believe in universal reconcilliation?would that include Satan?

I have no doubt that you are aware of the fact that Scripture speaks of 'eternal lfe' as being a present posession but imortality being a future condition. Yes?This is an oversimplification I think. Mark 10:30 But he shall receive an hundredfold now in this time, houses, and brethren, and sisters, and mothers, and children, and lands, with persecutions; and in the world to come eternal life. where 'world' is 'aiOn' and 'eternal' is 'aiOniOs' where there is a clear future to the concept. And similarlyHeb. 6:5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, where 'world' is 'aiOn' again. The teaching of the New Testament is that there is a 'life' which spans from here to there. As regards its origin and destiny it is heavenly but the regenerate have already begun to experience or 'taste' this 'life' of a coming 'aiOn'. This is the life imparted to us in regeneration. For the regenerate the future has arrived.

I have been thinking about your thoughts on the 'age of the ages' the final age. You say this is the last age. I too believe in a final age. But I am not sure if you believe that this final age is endless, or that at the end of this age everybody will stay in whatever state they are in but that the age itself will end. Do you see what I am asking? Just curious. BTW what do you think of 'the ages of the ages'?How could a final age not be 'endless', unless it is followed by the absence of everything? 'Final' must mean the last. It could mean the final chocolate, and when that's gone its gone; all that remains is an empty box. But surely God's ultimate age cannot be followed by an empty box? That begins to sound like Nirvana. I do not believe that a final age 'can have an end'I think the 'ages of the ages' may simply imply 'everlastingness', as with the phrase 'thousand of thousands, and tens of thousands. The phrase is frequently used in the Revelation where the last reference readsRev. 22:5 and night shall not be there, and they have no need of a lamp and light of a sun, because the Lord God doth give them light, and they shall reign — to the ages of the ages. (Youngs)

How could a final age not be 'endless', unless it is followed by the absence of everything? 'Final' must mean the last. By this logic the first age was therefore preceded by the absence of everything and therefore the presence of nothing. However the scripture plainly and clearly speak of a 'before' the ages. You see, the ages are the arena in and upon which his plan is carried out.Once the plan is completed and all is reconciled the ages close.If you believe that the final age is endless then why do you rule out the possibility of change within this 'endless' age? I don't agree that it is. But following your own beliefs I cant see why an endless age rules out any further redemption. If you had of said that the final age came to a close and at that time there was no further chance for change as time had ended, I could understand.

Can fire purge sin?Only God can purge sin.But you know as well as any that somtimes the saved are saved 'so as by fire'.The pigpen did not save the prodigal son did it? But it was the environment in which he came to his senses. Who could conceive of a thought that would suggest that the flames of Hell could do only what the blood can do? This is quite a frightful misrepresentation. Even if you don't agree with my beliefs you don't need to resort to this. I never said such a thing. You mentioned that this is a rare civil discussion on this topic.I havent been challenged in a cival way on this for years. I only discuss it when the opportunity arises. In the last few years every opportunity to discuss it has resulted in my finding out that the hearer already believed it, or endede in them believing it. The only challenges I have had in recent years was from two denominational leaders who wanted nothing to do with me after i mentioned i believe this. But I am certainly enjoying this cahllenging which is certainly cival. However no matter how strongly you feel about this matter you could kindly do me the favor of dealing with particular issues rather than simply using emotive arguments. Thanks.

By this logic the first age was therefore preceded by the absence of everything and therefore the presence of nothing. However the scripture plainly and clearly speak of a 'before' the ages. You see, the ages are the arena in and upon which his plan is carried out.Surely the first 'age' was not preceded by nothing but was preceded by God. Once God had begun His work of creation there is more that 'God' to take into consideration. From that time 'souls' have to be somewhere if they are not to be annihilated? The 'age of the ages' suggests that this is the goal, just as the Holy of Holies was 'the goal'. It is this reference to the ultimate destination of God's creative purposes which makes a 'ps' impossible.The reason I regard the 'final age' as a state to which things have been brought rather than another stage in the process which has been ongoing through the ages. I do not regard the 'age of the ages' as a time-zone but as the culmination. I readily admit that there must be the possibility of development but not to a changed state only from 'glory to glory'.

taco:However the scripture plainly and clearly speak of a 'before' the ages. In case any are wondering what I mean by this I will quote from the book of 2 Tim, chapter 1Be not therefore ashamed of the testimony of our Lord, nor of me his prisoner; but suffer evil along with the glad tidings, according to the power of God;who has saved us, and has called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given to us in Christ Jesus before the ages of time(Darby)This refers to a 'before the ages of time'. God purposing somthing in Christ. Hardly nirvana brethren. The bible speaks little of this. Just as it speaks ittle of the angelic world. The Scripture, I believe, is God's book of the ages, telling of his plan for man. From creation to reconcilliation through redemtion by the blood of Christ. Purposed in Christ before the ages. Gatherd up in Christ at the dispensation ofthe fullness of times. Jesus Christ is the Alpha and the Omega, the beginning and the end. All of God's purposes begin in Christ and end in Christ.

oops duplicated that post! sorry.

This is quite a frightful misrepresentation. Even if you don't agree with my beliefs you don't need to resort to this. I never said such a thing.I know this wasn't my conversation but I do wince at the concept of some kind of protestant purgatory in the making here. I repeat my question in a different form; will Satan benefit from this fiery cleansing too? Matt. 25:41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels: Does this not suggest that the unrepentant is to share the Devil's fate? Is Satan's fiery imprisonment only temporary too?

I know this wasn't my conversation but I do wince at the concept of some kind of protestant purgatory in the making here.I have never said that any fire can atone for, or purify sin. Have I?I have no idea how the judgments in the ages to come work. But do believe God can use terrible things in this life to bring men to there knees. That is not the same as saying that those things saved the man.

Only God can purge sin.This is a partial truth that deceives as well as the others. There is just enough truth here to be deadly. Listen to Spurgeon: The broad fact is this, there is evil; and your question should be, "How can I escape from the wrath to come, which is engendered of this evil?" In answering that question this verse stands right in the middle of the way (like the angel with the sword, who once stopped Balaam on his road to Barak,) "Without shedding of blood is no remission." Your real want is to know how you can be saved; if you are aware that your sin must be pardoned or punished, your question will be, "How can it he pardoned?" and then point blank in the very teeth of your enquiry, there stands out this fact: "Without shedding of blood there is no remission." Mark you, this is not merely a Jewish maxim; it is a world-wide and eternal truth. It pertaineth not to the Hebrews only, but to the Gentiles likewise. Never in any time, never in any place, never in any person, can there be remission apart from shedding of blood. This great fact, I say, is stamped on nature; it is an essential law of God's moral government, it is one of the fundamental principles which can neither be shaken nor denied. Never can there be any exception to it; it stands the same in every place throughout all ages—"Without shedding of blood there is no remission." It was so with the Jews; they had no remission without the shedding of blood. Some things under the Jewish law might be cleansed by water or by fire, but in no case where absolute sin was concerned was there ever purification without blood—teaching this doctrine, that blood, and blood alone, must be applied for the remission of sin. Indeed the very heathen seem to have an inkling of this fact. Do not I see their knives gory with the blood of victims? Have I not heard horrid tales of human immolations, of holocausts, of sacrifices; and what mean these, but that there lies deep in the human breast, deep as the very existence of man, this truth,—"that without shedding of blood there is no remission." And I assert once more, that even in the hearts and consciences of my hearers there is something which will never let them believe in remission apart from a shedding of blood. This is the grand truth of Christianity, and it is a truth which I will endeavour now to fix upon your memory; and may God by his grace...Quote:Who could conceive of a thought that would suggest that the flames of Hell could do only what the blood can do?This is quite a frightful misrepresentation. Even if you don't agree with my beliefs you don't need to resort to this. I never said such a thing. Universalists, as you claim to be, have been met with the heavy hand of truth throughout the ages, not the least of which was by Charles Grandison Finney. The poison of the Macdonald article was enough to alarm all who read it and discern it to the highest degree possible. It is deadly spiritual poison. However no matter how strongly you feel about this matter you could kindly do me the favor of dealing with particular issues rather than simply using emotive arguments. ThanksI feel as strongly against Universalism as I do any other heresy. For those who don't understand what is going on here your faith is under fire. If you prefer to tie a knot with strifes about words to no profit and refer to my arguments as 'emotive' I shall not contend. Whatever truth can be brought to bare against such a false doctrine, especially when you have already stated that you have deceived all you have debated with, I hope all will contend. To simplify this what is being said here is that all peoples will be ultimately saved from the eternal wrath of God. That militates against everything we stand for as evangelical believers.Regards,-Robert

here. I repeat my question in a different form; will Satan benefit from this fiery cleansing too? Why does this firey clensing keep coming up? Again, wheter or not you belive my theology, please don't put words in my mouth. I said a man may in after/during judgment turn to Christ and be cleansed by his blood. In realtion to Satan;I will quote A wise man who on spaking of the agelic realm once said it is something like two intersecting circles mankinds story and the angels' story. The intersection is really all we 'know' about the angelic races. We can form our best-fit-hypotheses, but that is the best we can do.I know that Christ is refered to as the Savior of all men. This would seem to be the realm that the bible deals with. I am not sure that salvation is a proper term for angelic/spirit beings. I do know that the bible in col 1:20 speaks of reconciliation of the things in heaven and on earht. But I can't honelstly say. I am more concerned for man. I would not believe that his rebellion will continue forever, what becomes of him then, I don't know. But to be 'in Christ' belongs to man, this to me is salvation in its fullest sense.

I said a man may in after/during judgment turn to Christ and be cleansed by his blood. This is a damnable heresy! That man can be saved AT or AFTER the Great White Throne Judgment. You are sorely deceived.

Robert, I have said often enough that redemtion is only by the blood of Christ. To say I said otherwise is a misrepresentation.One can be cival and yet defend the faith. Mr Baiely is a case in point. But misrepresentation gets us nowhere. Spugeon believed the same as me -that every single person whom Christ died for would be saved because of his bood.Spurgeon just believed he died for less than the whole world. (why by the way don't you consider that heresy worth shouting about?)

This is a damnable heresy!Are you saying that I am damned for beliving this? I believe it with a good conscience.(edit added the following)I believd in Chirst for years befoer I believed this. Supposing what I believe is wrong, do you mean to tell me that God has abandoned me because I have now been decieved? Even the people who argued the strongest against this belief have never made such a stament. I amquite shocked.

Spurgeon just believed he died for less than the whole world. (why by the way don't you consider that heresy worth shouting about?)I knew if we let you talk long enough your true beliefs would come out. This is a damnable heresy!Are you saying that I am damned for beliving this? I believe it with a good conscience.What I am saying is that it is a heresy that endangers the souls of men. Suppose a man suddenly believed the lie that he could be cleansed by the blood at the Judgment Seat and refused to turn to Christ in this life; he would be damned for all eternity. If this heresy ever takes hold multitudes will be lost to Hell for it.

tacoI have been thinking about the 'ages of time' or the 'times of the ages' as other translations have it. It is easy enought to get a general sense of the meaning but I wanted to dig deeper. Are you familiar with Vincent's Word Studies? He has this long section that I thought interesting in the light of this discussion. If you understand it before me, please let me know.Additional Note on ὄλεθρον αἰώνιον eternal destruction, 2Th_1:9Ἁιών transliterated eon, is a period of time of longer or shorter duration, having a beginning and an end, and complete in itself. Aristotle (περὶ οὐρανοῦ, i. 9, 15) says: “The period which includes the whole time of each one's life is called the eon of each one.” Hence it often means the life of a man, as in Homer, where one's life (αἰών) is said to leave him or to consume away (Il. v. 685; Od. v. 160). It is not, however, limited to human life; it signifies any period in the course of events, as the period or age before Christ; the period of the millennium; the mytho-logical period before the beginnings of history. The word has not “a stationary and mechanical value” (De Quincey). It does not mean a period of a fixed length for all cases. There are as many eons as entities, the respective durations of which are fixed by the normal conditions of the several entities. There is one eon of a human life, another of the life of a nation, another of a crow's life, another of an oak's life. The length of the eon depends on the subject to which it is attached.It is sometimes translated world; world representing a period or a series of periods of time. See Mat_12:32; Mat_13:40, Mat_13:49; Luk_1:70; 1Co_1:20; 1Co_2:6; Eph_1:21. Similarly οἱ αἰῶνες the worlds, the universe, the aggregate of the ages or periods, and their contents which are included in the duration of the world. 1Co_2:7; 1Co_10:11; Heb_1:2; Heb_9:26; Heb_11:3.The word always carries the notion of time, and not of eternity. It always means a period of time. Otherwise it would be impossible to account for the plural, or for such qualifying expressions as this age, or the age to come. It does not mean something endless or everlasting. To deduce that meaning from its relation to ἀεί is absurd; for, apart from the fact that the meaning of a word is not definitely fixed by its derivation, ἀεί does not signify endless duration. When the writer of the Pastoral Epistles quotes the saying that the Cretans are always (ἀεί) liars (Tit_1:12), he surely does not mean that the Cretans will go on lying to all eternity. See also Act_7:51; 2Co_4:11; 2Co_6:10; Heb_3:10; 1Pe_3:15. Ἁεί means habitually or continually within the limit of the subject's life. In our colloquial dialect everlastingly is used in the same way. “The boy is everlastingly tormenting me to buy him a drum.”In the New Testament the history of the world is conceived as developed through a succession of eons. A series of such eons precedes the introduction of a new series inaugurated by the Christian dispensation, and the end of the world and the second coming of Christ are to mark the beginning of another series. See Eph_3:11. Paul contemplates eons before and after the Christian era. Eph_1:21; Eph_2:7; Eph_3:9, Eph_3:21; 1Co_10:11; comp. Heb_9:26. He includes the series of eons in one great eon, ὁ αἰὼν τῶν αἰώνων the eon of the eons (Eph_3:21); and the author of the Epistle to the Hebrews describes the throne of God as enduring unto the eon of the eons (Heb_1:8). The plural is also used, eons of the eons, signifying all the successive periods which make up the sum total of the ages collectively. Rom_16:27; Gal_1:5; Phi_4:20, etc. This plural phrase is applied by Paul to God only.The adjective αἰώνιος in like manner carries the idea of time. Neither the noun nor the adjective, in themselves, carry the sense of endless or everlasting. They may acquire that sense by their connotation, as, on the other hand, ἀΐ̀διος, which means everlasting, has its meaning limited to a given point of time in Jud_1:6. Ἁιώνιος means enduring through or pertaining to a period of time. Both the noun and the adjective are applied to limited periods. Thus the phrase εἰς τὸν αἰῶνα, habitually rendered forever, is often used of duration which is limited in the very nature of the case. See, for a few out of many instances, lxx, Exo_21:6; Exo_29:9; Exo_32:13; Jos_14:9; 1Sa_8:13; Lev_25:46; Deu_15:17; 1Ch_28:4. See also Mat_21:19; Joh_13:8; 1Co_8:13. The same is true of αἰώνιος. Out of 150 instances in lxx, four-fifths imply limited duration. For a few instances see Gen_48:4; Num_10:8; Num_15:15; Pro_22:28; Jon_2:6; Hab_3:6; Isa_61:8.Words which are habitually applied to things temporal or material can not carry in themselves the sense of endlessness. Even when applied to God, we are not forced to render αἰώνιος everlasting. Of course the life of God is endless; but the question is whether, in describing God as αἰώνιος, it was intended to describe the duration of his being, or whether some different and larger idea was not contemplated. That God lives longer than men, and lives on everlastingly, and has lived everlastingly, are, no doubt, great and significant facts; yet they are not the dominant or the most impressive facts in God's relations to time. God's eternity does not stand merely or chiefly for a scale of length. It is not primarily a mathematical but a moral fact. The relations of God to time include and imply far more than the bare fact of endless continuance. They carry with them the fact that God transcends time; works on different principles and on a vaster scale than the wisdom of time provides; oversteps the conditions and the motives of time; marshals the successive eons from a point outside of time, on lines which run out into his own measureless cycles, and for sublime moral ends which the creature of threescore and ten years cannot grasp and does not even suspect.There is a word for everlasting if that idea is demanded. That αἰώνιος occurs rarely in the New Testament and in lxx does not prove that its place was taken by αἰώνιος. It rather goes to show that less importance was attached to the bare idea of everlastingness than later theological thought has given it. Paul uses the word once, in Rom_1:20, where he speaks of “the everlasting power and divinity of God.” In Rom_16:26 he speaks of the eternal God (τοῦ αἰωνίου θεοῦ); but that he does not mean the everlasting God is perfectly clear from the context. He has said that “the mystery” has been kept in silence in times eternal (χρόνοις αἰωνίοις), by which he does not mean everlasting times, but the successive eons which elapsed before Christ was proclaimed. God therefore is described as the God of the eons, the God who pervaded and controlled those periods before the incarnation. To the same effect is the title ὁ βασιλεὺς τῶν αἰώνων the King of the eons, applied to God in 1Ti_1:17; Rev_15:3; comp. Tob. 13:6, 10. The phrase πρὸ χρόνων αἰωνίων before eternal times (2Ti_1:9; Tit_1:2), cannot mean before everlasting times. To say that God bestowed grace on men, or promised them eternal life before endless times, would be absurd. The meaning is of old, as Luk_1:70. The grace and the promise were given in time, but far back in the ages, before the times of reckoning the eons.Ζωὴ αἰώνιος eternal life, which occurs 42 times in N.T., but not in lxx, is not endless life, but life pertaining to a certain age or eon, or continuing during that eon. I repeat, life may be endless. The life in union with Christ is endless, but the fact is not expressed by αἰώνιος. Κόλασις αἰώνιος, rendered everlasting punishment (Mat_25:46), is the punishment peculiar to an eon other than that in which Christ is speaking. In some cases ζωὴ αἰώνιος does not refer specifically to the life beyond time, but rather to the eon or dispensation of Messiah which succeeds the legal dispensation. See Mat_19:16; Joh_5:39. John says that ζωὴ αἰώνιος is the present possession of those who believe on the Son of God, Joh_3:36; Joh_5:24; Joh_6:47, Joh_6:64. The Father's commandment is ζωὴ αἰώσιος, Joh_12:50; to know the only true God and Jesus Christ is ζωὴ αἰώνιος, Joh_17:3.Bishop Westcott very justly says, commenting upon the terms used by John to describe life under different aspects: “In considering these phrases it is necessary to premise that in spiritual things we must guard against all conclusions which rest upon the notions of succession and duration. 'Eternal life' is that which St. Paul speaks of as ἡ ὄντως ζωὴ the life which is life indeed, and ἡ ζωὴ τοῦ θεοῦ the life of God. It is not an endless duration of being in time, but being of which time is not a measure. We have indeed no powers to grasp the idea except through forms and images of sense. These must be used, but we must not transfer them as realities to another order.”Thus, while αἰώνιος carries the idea of time, though not of endlessness, there belongs to it also, more or less, a sense of quality. Its character is ethical rather than mathematical. The deepest significance of the life beyond time lies, not in endlessness, but in the moral quality of the eon into which the life passes. It is comparatively unimportant whether or not the rich fool, when his soul was required of him (Luk_12:20), entered upon a state that was endless. The principal, the tremendous fact, as Christ unmistakably puts it, was that, in the new eon, the motives, the aims, the conditions, the successes and awards of time counted for nothing. In time, his barns and their contents were everything; the soul was nothing. In the new life the soul was first and everything, and the barns and storehouses nothing. The bliss of the sanctified does not consist primarily in its endlessness, but in the nobler moral conditions of the new eon, - the years of the holy and eternal God. Duration is a secondary idea. When it enters it enters as an accompaniment and outgrowth of moral conditions.In the present passage it is urged that ὄλεθρον destruction points to an unchangeable, irremediable, and endless condition. If this be true, if ὄλεθρος is extinction, then the passage teaches the annihilation of the wicked, in which case the adjective αἰώνιος is superfluous, since extinction is final, and excludes the idea of duration. But ὄλεθρος does not always mean destruction or extinction. Take the kindred verb ἀπόλλυμι to destroy, put an end to, or in the middle voice, to be lost, to perish. Peter says, “the world being deluged with water, perished” (ἀπολοῦνται 2Pe_3:6); but the world did not become extinct, it was renewed. In Heb_1:11, Heb_1:12 quoted from Psalm 102, we read concerning the heavens and the earth as compared with the eternity of God, “they shall perish” (ἀπολοῦνται). But the perishing is only preparatory to change and renewal. “They shall be changed” (ἀλλαγήσονται). Comp. Isa_51:6, Isa_51:16; Isa_65:17; Isa_66:22; 2Pe_3:13; Rev_21:1. Similarly, “the Son of man came to save that which was lost” (ἀπολωλός), Luk_19:10. Jesus charged his apostles to go to the lost (ἀπολωλότα) sheep of the house of Israel, Mat_10:6, comp. Mat_15:24. “He that shall lose (ἀπολέσῃ) his life for my sake shall find it,” Mat_16:25. Comp. Luk_15:6, Luk_15:9, Luk_15:32.In this passage the word destruction is qualified. It is “destruction from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his power, “ at his second coming, in the new eon. In other words, it is the severance, at a given point of time, of those who obey not the gospel from the presence and the glory of Christ. Ἁιώνιος may therefore describe this severance as continuing during the millennial eon between Christ's coming and the final judgment; as being for the wicked prolonged throughout that eon and characteristic of it, or it may describe the severance as characterizing or enduring through a period or eon succeeding the final judgment, the extent of which period is not defined. In neither case is αἰώνιος to be interpreted as everlasting or endless.

knew if we let you talk long enough your true beliefs would come out. In all honestly I don't know what you mean by this. Do you mean my hope that all be saved? I staed that 'ages' ago. In fact I stated it in an earlier thread.Or do you think that I am railing against Spurgeon? If so I can assure I am not. Spurgeon is a great friend of mine I enjoy his writnings imensly. What I meant by my comment was that you consider me a rank heritic for believing that all will be saved but you don't consider Spurgeon a heritic for believing that all that Christ died for would be saved while not beliving that He died for all. BTW I don't consider Spurgeon a heritic at all. I have met believers in universalism who were definitly heritics, and some who were not. A heritc is not someone who believes different than orthodox pentecostalism or any other ism, nor yet is he a man who beives somthing in error but believes it honestly. He is 'a party man' I can assure you I am not.

Reading through these last few posts this passage of Scripture came to mind, and it makes me tremble;Son of man, I have made thee a watchman unto the house of Israel: therefore hear the word at my mouth, and give them warning from me. When I say unto the wicked, Thou shalt surely die; and thou givest him not warning, nor speakest to warn the wicked from his wicked way, to save his life; the same wicked [man] shall die in his iniquity; but his blood will I require at thine hand. Yet if thou warn the wicked, and he turn not from his wickedness, nor from his wicked way, he shall die in his iniquity; but thou hast delivered thy soul.(Ezekiel 3:17-19)In Christ,Ron

Often meant to get a copy of Vincent but haven't got one yet. Only time for a quick read of what you have posted. Thank you it is facinating. I persume that you didn't type all of this up in the last few mintes. Is it available online or as a module for e-sword or somthing?

Why does this firey clensing keep coming up? Again, wheter or not you belive my theology, please don't put words in my mouth. I said a man may in after/during judgment turn to Christ and be cleansed by his blood.My apologies, I had presumed that you were a follower of those who say that all punishment is remedial and hence the 'fire' is part of God's reconciling work. I would caution you in quoting me. I have a small group of vigilanties on-site who dog my steps enough without you encouraging them. ;-) I return to the shared fate of the unrepentant and Satan and his angels. As far as I can read it the biblical revelation ends with Satan in 'fire'. I dare not presume that this is a limited sentence. The frequent words of the Lord give no hope for respite. To add 'hope' to any of his images of future punishment would be to fatally dilute them. Your reference to Col 1:20 NASB and through Him to reconcile all things to Himself, having made peace through the blood of His cross; through Him, I say, whether things on earth or things in heaven. was expected from the beginning, but this verse is quite specific in its reference that the 'all things' are 'on earth' or 'in heaven'. There is one domain conspicuously absent here; 'hell'. There is no warrant in this verse for a hope that God will reconcile any other than those who live on earth or are already present in heaven. "Now is the day of salvation".

I persume that you didn't type all of this up in the last few mintes. Is it available online or as a module for e-sword or somthing?yes, its an e-sword module.

Taco,Understand that I do not believe you see how dangerous such a view is. I also wish that all would be saved; but I cannot alter the eternal reality of how things ultimately will be to fit that desire. Preaching the Gospel is the answer and nothing else.If I come off strong it is not with the intent to be offensive; but there are many impressionable minds that would hear such a thing and believe it. You may only hold the belief as a remote doctrine that never crosses your mind but at times like these; but when it is out in the open it has to be dealt with. Falsehood is like a pestilence- it spreads into an epidemic. 1) We cannot allow anyone to believe they can be saved at or after the Judgment. Personally I cannot imagine a more dangerous thought than this. It is at the apex of all lies I have ever heard soteriologically. I call them lies because that is what it is. It is a lie. 2) My reaction is to WARN anyone reading this thread as we process through your arguments. Like a patient sick with the flu; we have to treat the patient and we have to quarantine the 'virus' or it will spread. Like a fireman heading for a fire- sometimes you are a bit agressive. But this is an emergency in my mind.I will be the first to apologize openly, candidly, and publicly if I am in error. I have no reason to contend but for the truth of the Gospel.Regards,-Robert

There is one domain conspicuously absent here; 'hell'. I don't know that satan is spoken of as being in hell though. Certainly not at the time of pauls writing. The passage about reconciliation in Col1 seems to nicely paralell the passage early talking about Creation inand through Christ.These things are too lofty for me though. The revelation of reconcilliation and redemtion are always related to men. This is what I am interested in. I am not willing to abandon my hope for any whom Christ died for on the basis of a greek word which is highly debatable.I find it amazing that Paul, whom I view as being the theologion of the church par excellence says only one thing that could be taken to imply eternal punishment, that is in 2 thes 9. Vincent's words on that are enlightening.Paul also says that God will make known his grace through us, the church, in the ages to come. James says we are a kind of firstfruits of creation. I look for the full harvest.I am not eloquent and can't state my case well. this is my belief, this is my hope. But it is not my obsession. When I gather with the brethren we rarely discuss this matter. Most know my belief. Some share it silently. But my interest is in Christ, the scriptures and spiritual growth.I have no desire to offend any here. Unless any have specific questions they want me to address I will drop the matter. I have a fierce tendancy to get in the last word so I shall fight that and leave it to my 'oposers'. Again, if you want me to address a particular matter please ask. Otherwise I shall move to a new thread.As a closing note, to those who say this is a dangerous belief. I feel it more dangerous to believe somthing just because it is the accepted belief. My belief has not lessend my desire for evangelism, I have preached open air and door to door. My passoin is for Christ and his ecclesia. I have prayed long and hard for wisdom but still Iam convinced of this hope. I take it as no licence to sin (before salvation I believed in eternal hell and still sinned plenty - sinners don't need a licence). My desire is to see God -to be pure in heart. Here I stand I can do no other. Edit: That brings to mind a quote from Luther I will end with this (honest)“God forbid that I should limit the time of acquiring faith to the present life! In the depths of thedivine mercy there may be opportunity to win it in the future state.”—LUTHER, Letter to Hansen vonRechenberg, 1522.Be he right or be he wrong, Luther certtainly did not hinder many from beliveing the gospel.Taco.

Dear Taco my brother in Christ,Here some passage of the Holy Bible,that spoke about hell.Ps 9:12Ps 55:15Prov 27:20Matt 5:22Matt 18:9Matt23:33Luke 12:5If this does not satisfy you I wil pray that the Lord will reveal to you this place, my dear brother I am not trying to scare you or any thing but I can safely say here and stand before God. By the Blood of the Lamb and the word of my testimony ... Hell is true place of eternal punishment.All my desire is to reveal this, through my own testimony. This passage alone I have experience "Ps 18:4-6". For I know by the word of our testimony many will be save.No human knowledge can really understand or comprehend that there is hell well and true.Many saying this earth is already a place of hell, it's NOT. This is the place that every one can make a decision right now. Weather to come to Jesus and repent or continually live in their own disobidience selfish life style. Many are called in different form of ministry, and the Lord Himself will equip us read " Eph 4:11-16". To whom much given much expected.

bubbaguy, AND ALL WHO ARE FOLLOWING THIS THREAD.I understand your concerns. I have been studying these points for a while now. I'll just share some important points I believe are truths Gods word teaches.It is very important we grasp who God is, His Nature, That He is an All Holy God. All powerful, perfect. Loving, Righteous, Just, Wrath filled, Jelous God. Merciful, and graceful. To say the least.He is the same God in both old and new testatment, He doesnt change, so He wasnt a mean God or Angry in the old testament and a loving one in the new test.God does not change, same yesterday today and forever.If people were good, God would not be just in sending men to Hell. This is understandable to think this way. But this is not the case.So if God says there is a Hell, and people will be sent there we must understand why, Are all men really pretty good people ocasionly doing bad things? Or are we inherintly wicked occasionly seeminly doing good things.Is it unfair for God to send people to hell?To awnser these questions we must first understand how truly fallen man is. John 3:18 "He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. And this is the condemnation, that the light has come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil."1. People DO NOT go to Hell because they havent heard the gospel. Why People go to Hell is because they are sinners(transgressors of Gods law) and that is there just sentence, the punishment for their sin. The wages of sin(breaking Gods commands) is death. They are condemned already.The Deff of sin IS NOT, not hearing and believing the gospel, and then going to hell because of not hearing the gospel. Sin is Transgression of the Law of God.God sent His Son because we were Sinners, doomed, and needed a savior. To deliver us from our sin.So Hell is for the sinners.Sin, seperates Man from God. Ie. Adam&Eve, God warned them that in the day they eat of that fruit, they would surely die. They died spiritually, seperated from God. This illistrates God's Holiness, and His hatred of sin. His righteousness, and justice.But God, was merciful, and and killed an animal, and covered them with its skin. Type and shadow of what was to come.God first demonstrates that, He must judge sin&sinner, But He also out of His mercy He accept's the death of animal, as a substitute in place of the man. Life is in the blood, so a life for a life.God justly punished Adam&eve for their rebellion, but because He is merciful, He had planed to save them, and their seed, through His son, whom He promised He would send.All men, now were born in iniquity, and in Adams likeness, not Gods. We all inherited the family disease of sin.Before God flooded the earth, All mans thoughts were evil continualy.Paul writes in Romans, that no body is good, no one does good, no one is righteous, no one understands( Basically Everyone is Doomed, and cannot find God, we are all lost in our sin.)We have all gone astray.He says that we once were Enemies of God, Our minds were Emnity(hatred) towards God.He writes All have sinned and fallen short of the Glory of God. The heart is desperatly wicked who could know it.He teaches us that All men, are Lost, and Dead in sin. All men naturally love evil, and desire it over doing good. We were all children of Wrath. So God is just in punishing all men to Hell for their rebellion against Him. It is our Just reward. It is what we truly deserve. We do not deserve anything but death.Noone can find God, outside of Gods grace drawing them to himself.So all our enemies of God, lost, and cannot find God, nore desire to, but there sin. So It is Gods mercy that draws men, not man comes to God. No man can come to God except drawn to God by God.Therefore Salvation is 100% work of God, and His unmerited Free Grace.THE WORD SAYS, WITHOUT HOLINESS NONE CAN SEE THE LORD! Unles we are made Holy in this life, we will not see the Lord.Unless one is born again He cannot enter the Kingdom of Heaven.Unless You become like a little child you cannot enter the kingdom of Heaven.Rev 21:8 "But the cowardly, unbelieving, abominable, murderers, sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death."Paul Spoke of Seperation From Heaven!1 Cor 6:8 " No, you yourselves do wrong and cheat, and you do these things to your brethren! Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived. Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals, nor sodomites,nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners will inherit the kingdom of God."We cannot view God through our mindsets, morals, beliefs, we must view Him in the light of His word.Remember the story Jesus told, of the Rich man and Lazurus. There was no second chance for that man..Jesus spoke more about Hell then Heaven, why, becauseMatt 7:13 "ENTER by the NARROW GATE; for WIDE is the GATE and BROAD is the way that leads to destruction, and there are MANY who go in by it. 14“BECAUSE NARROW is the GATE and DIFFICULT is the WAY which leads to life, and THERE ARE FEW WHO FIND IT.15“Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ravenous wolves. 16“You will know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes from thornbushes or figs from thistles? 17“Even so, every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit. 18“A good tree CANNOT bear bad fruit, nor can a bad tree bear good fruit. 19“EVERY tree that DOES NOT BEAR GOOD FRUIT is cut down and thrown into the fire. 20“Therefore by their fruits you will know them.21“NOT EVERYONE who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, BUT HE WHO DOES THE WILL of My Father in heaven. 22“Many will say to Me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?’ 23“And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!’24“Therefore whoever hears these sayings of Mine, and does them, I will liken him to a wise man who built his house on the rock: 25“and the rain descended, the floods came, and the winds blew and beat on that house; and it did not fall, for it was founded on the rock. 26“But everyone who HEARS these sayings of Mine, and DOES NOT DO them, will be like a foolish man who built his house on the sand: 27“and the rain descended, the floods came, and the winds blew and beat on that house; and it fell. And GREAT WAS ITS FALL.”Jesus view sin so serious, and its punishments, he warned that if your right eye causes you to sin cut it out, it is better you enter Heaven with one eye than Hell with two.The Word of God says, its apointed a man die once then the judgement.When paul preached he said, God commands all men to repent because He has chosen a day when He will judge the world in righteousness. By Gods standards.Do you consider yourself a good person, test your interpretation of goodness, to Gods. Gods word says if you break one of his laws you broke them all.The 10 commandments are a reflection of Gods perfectness, and His requirements for man. They show us what true goodness, and righteousness is, They show us what God demands, in order to stand before Him, and how we All have fallen short, and how we despretly need to be saved, from Gods wrath.Go through the 10 Commandments, have you ever stolen that makes you a theif, lied makes you a lier, lusted in your heart your an adualter, have you loved the Lord, with all your heart soul mind will and strength 100% all your life? Have you ever not ohnored your parents? Have you coveted anything thats your neighbours? Have you loved your neighbour always as you would be loved? Have you ever put anything before the Lord, that would make you an idolator. Have you ever made your life all about you, lived for self, this is pride, and your falling in the same snare as the devil. He wanted to take the glory away from God, and he wanted to be worshiped.When you die and stand before a Holy and just God, EVEN IF you have sinned just once, you are guilty, and deserve Death.Becasue God is Holy, You cannot live with Him. You must be Holy. The only way God could redeem, us was with a perfect sacrfice.This is Why God needed to send His Son. That is how much God hates sin, and how much we needed redemption, and how much He loved those whom He chose before the foundations of the world. God cannot be Mocked. Jesus the way the truth and the life, no man can come to the Father but through Him. If your not in Him, redeemed by, You will be seperated by Him eternally.He will seperate the wheat from chaff.We have many parables. 10 VIRGINS, these are those the profess Christ, but do not know Him, and are shut out. Lazy servant, punished to seperation. Sheeps& Goats.We will reap what we sow.Hopefully the readers have a better understanding of the Justice of God punishing a sinner, unless He is in Christ, then the wrath of God no longer abides on him.If we do not understand Gods Holiness, and His righteous requirements, Our depravity, and our just reward, If we do not understand these things, we will believe God is unjust for sending people to Hell, and we will most likely be self righteous, we will have a distorted and wordly view of God, and His ways.I highly recomend This sermon by Ray Comfort,Hells Best kept Secret,Go to www.livingwaters.com and click on Hells Best kept Secret free audio, it should be thing banner going across page on fire.This sermon Is a must for the Most Christians of West. Its about Biblical presentation of Gospel.Well I hope this helped anyone come to the truth.Blessings Joshua

When an issue has been visited by so many I think we have something of an obligation to see it through, as best we can.I want to get the feel of the Bible's teaching on 'final' states. taco mentioned that he is surprised that Paul, as the theologian of the church, is so retiring on this topic. I suggest that we should give special attention to Christ who is the 'author' of this topic. David Pawson's book will give you the statistics. (I recommend Pawson' book for its comprehensiveness.)A question I want to return to is the purpose of hell. (by hell, I am using the popular word for 'gehenna') Why was 'hell' created? As far as I know we have the main clue in Mat 25:34 KJV Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:Mat 25:41 KJV Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:I have put these verses together because they present only two possibilities and each one is an arrival at a 'prepared place'. The significant thing is that the 'kingdom' was prepared for 'you', but the 'age-lasting fire'was prepared for the arch-rebel and his followers.Why would anyone go to the trouble of 'preparing' a place for the devil and his angels? Why not just annihilate them? Perhaps because they are immortal? But what do you do with beings of this power to protect others from their malice? Hence 'age-lasting' fire prepared for these who having witnessed 'heaven' first-hand and resolved to destroy God and to take His throne. As these are immortal beings their place of confinement has to be 'everlasting' in the usual sense of the word.The terrible revelation of Christ is that those who choose to align themselves with that rebellion in continuing disobedience must share their punishment and their prison; everlastingly. Those who share their rebellion must share their destiny.

by Heavenlyman on 2005/4/15 20:45:00Dear Taco my brother in Christ,....Thank you brother for your cordial post. I really sense and apreciate your genuine concern. I have read these verses many times but will spend some time later today reading them again. By all means please do pray for me as I shall be meditating upon them later on. Just because I am so strongly convinced of the truth of my belief does not mean that I am not aware that it goes against the majority opinion in the conservative Christain world. This fact alone is enough to compel me to examine carefuly what I believe, but in and of itself is not enough to change me. Thank you.

I would caution you in quoting me. I have a small group of vigilanties on-site who dog my steps enough without you encouraging them. I love you Ron :-D

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