https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/myvideo/photo.php?lid=2926
Overall a very good message by one of my new favorite preachers. "Marks of True Revival"...Richard Owen Roberts lays out a clear case for why Toronto and Brownsville were not true revivals. He touches on this in the first 10 minutes I believe, but whether or not you agree with him, the entire message is very profitable!
I wonder what Steve Hill would have said about that and I wonder what Dr brown would say about it at least in regard to Brownsville.
i was encouraged by His exhortation about cups. Oh that God would break me and make me more useful for Him. Praise God He is conforming us all into the image of His Son.
Psalm 23:5
New International Version (NIV)
5 You prepare a table before me
in the presence of my enemies.
You anoint my head with oil;
my cup overflows.
Agreed brother Greg, May God take this old cup, cleanse it, break it, remake it and cause it to overflow with His Spirit, this is the thrust of ROR's message. If we do not see these things happen then it is more likely than not that we have not experienced true revival.
I also was stunned to hear the Holy laughter account relayed from John Wesley's diary that both brothers, after seeking The Lord all day finally concluded the outburst from Charles was satanic in origin...and one reason that helped them to see this was that it kept them from prayer! Wow, that's gut wrenching honest and very bold, no doubt the reason why The Lord used these brothers so powerfully!!
TMK, I am sure they would disagree and I am sure many others would as well. I visited both places in the 90s and I have to admit that I am now somewhat in agreement with brother Richards statements. Not that I care to make a big deal of these two "revivals" either way, but rather by examining false revivals, as he does, this is very helpful for us to understand and cry out for what true revival looks like.
Awakened,
Where do you get that information about the wesley-brothers?
Brotherly greetings,
Wijnand
Where do you get that information about the wesley-brothers?
"May Fri. 9. 1740--I was a little surprised at some, who were buffeted of Satan in an unusual manner, by such a spirit of laughter as they could in no wise resist, though it was pain and grief unto them. I could scarce have believed the account they gave me, had I not known the same thing ten or eleven years ago. Part of Sunday my brother (Charles) and I then used to spend in walking in the meadows and singing psalms. But one day, just as we were beginning to sing, he burst out into a loud laughter. I asked him, if he was distracted; and began to be very angry, and presently after to laugh as loud as he. Nor could we possibly refrain, though we were ready to tear ourselves in pieces, but we were forced to go home without singing another line."
Wed. 21.--In the evening such a spirit of laughter was among us, that many were much offended. But the attention of all was fixed on poor L. S., whom we all knew to be no dissembler. One so violently and variously torn of the evil one did I never see before. Sometimes she laughed till almost strangled; then broke out into cursing and blaspheming; then stamped and struggled with incredible strength, so that four or five could scarce hold her: Then cried out, "O eternity, eternity! O that I had no soul! O that I had never been born!"
At last she faintly called on Christ to help her. And the violence of her pangs ceased." Most of our brethren and sisters were now fully convinced, that those who were under this strange temptation could not help it. Only E.B. and Anne H. were of another mind: being still sure, anyone might help laughing if she would. This they declared to many on Thursday; but on Friday, 23, God suffered Satan to teach them better. Both of them were suddenly seized in the same manner as the rest, and laughed whether they would or no, almost without ceasing. Thus they continued for two days, a spectacle to all; and were then, upon prayer made for them, delivered in a moment."
Pages 271-273 Works of John Wesley Vol 1.
Though I believe there is a spurious, there is also a great joy in the Holy Spirit that we should not reject.
I personally bear witness to the experience of John Hyde, one time after we travailed in a prayer meeting for lost souls for over an hour. At the end when we felt we prayed through there was a joy given and I found myself laughing as another brother, in a controlled sense and manner. It was a wonderful joy that the Lord heard the prayers and was pleased with us praying for those He longs to save.
Praying John Hyde: "How often has G_____, after most awful crying seemed to break through the hosts of evil and soar up into the presence of the Father! You could see the smile of God reflected in his face. Then he would laugh aloud in the midst of his prayer. It was the joy of a son reveling in the delight of his father's smile. God has been teaching John [Hyde] and me that his name is the God of Isaac””laughter… Rejoicing, laughing, the same word as Isaac. This holy laughter seemed to relieve the tension and give Heaven's own refreshment to wrestling spirits.”
Capt. E.G. Carre, ed., Praying Hyde: A Challenge to Prayer (Asheville, NC: Revival Literature, n.d.), 26.
A.W. Tozer: "Now I say that worship is subject to degrees of perfection and intensity. There have been those who worshiped God to the place where they were in ecstasies of worship. I once saw a man kneel at an altar, taking Communion. Suddenly he broke into holy laughter. This man laughed until he wrapped his arms around himself as if he was afraid he would bust just out of sheer delight in the presence of Almighty God. . . . So worship is capable of running from the very simple to the most intense and sublime.”
A.W. Tozer, Worship: The Missing Jewel (Camp Hill, PA: Christian Publications, 1992), 20-21.
Brother Mark,
Listening to this I only heard him speak about Toronto and Pensecola, but not Brownsville. I would have been interested in what he had to say about Brownsville as it is often reported as different to the other two and more geneuine. However I have always doubted that as there were some unbiblical things taking place i understand and based on the criteria ROR gives for true revival I would say that Brownsville fails the test also.
Brownsville Assembly is in Pensacola I believe. But I also have heard and read that Toronto was more egregious than Brownsville. No revival is perfect. But I know that very strong preaching took place at Brownsville because I have listened to many of the sermons. There was also deep repentance. Was there some fleshly exhibitions? Sure. But let's not throw the baby out with the bath water.
TMK,
So are Brownsville and Pensecola one and the same in terms of events?
I always thought they were two different places and two seperate events! Just shows what I don't know! I Learnt something.
We should be judging revival or any move
of God not by the manifestations but by
the fruit.
Discernment is needed and obviously all
demonic manifestations should be dealt
with.
In revival history manifestations of laughing,
shaking, and fainting or what is known as
being slain in the spirit have occurred in
true revivals as well as the demonic.
Whenever man has attempted to steady the
ark, usually the Spirit has been quenched.
John Bevere, who wrote a book on the fear
of God was ministering in one of the
oriental countries when the Holy Spirit
moved in such a way that joy and laughter
came upon the people, a little later, the
fear of The Lord came upon the saints
and the laughter ceased.
I have been in meetings where there was
laughter taking place that was mostly in the
flesh, but I have also been in meetings
where it was the real deal.
Mike
,
I was in Toronto at the very beginning. It was something very special for the first several weeks. I saw more people openly repent of and confess sins than anything else. It particularly touched teens.
The meetings went from around 6 PM until 3 AM 7 days a week. I would get home at around 4 AM go to bed and be at work for 7:30 AM and not be the least bit tired, work all day and go again that night. My wife and i did this for the first 2 months at the Dixie Rd church. Every night was a who's who of the church as leaders came from all over to see what God was doing.
IMO everything changed at a meeting in a bible college in Toronto. From that point on it began to attract a different crowd and they began defending what was happening rather than just leaving it alone. I never went back after that and it changed drastically into manifestations for manifestations sake. It became a show from what others who visited told me.
I have read and heard many things from people who were not there themselves in the beginning. I remember the repentance, the crying, the unity and openness of 2 month when I went to a little church 7 days a week for 9 hours, only slept 3 hours a night and was not tired a single second of it. It was a wonderfull visitation.
Marc mc
Heydave-
Yes I believe they are the same event. I thought Brownsville was a place as well but it was the name of the church.
I have always been wary of holy laughter primarily because it has never happened to me ;)
For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine, but according to their own desires, because they have itching ears, they will heap up for themselves teachers; and they will turn their ears away from the truth, and be turned aside to fables.
TMK
Quote:
Re:\t"Brownsville Assembly is in Pensacola I believe. But I also have heard and read that Toronto was more egregious than Brownsville. No revival is perfect. But I know that very strong preaching took place at Brownsville because I have listened to many of the sermons. There was also deep repentance. Was there some fleshly exhibitions? Sure. But let's not throw the baby out with the bath water."
This is true. I was there at the early stage and deep repentance was THE ONLY message. I believe it changed later on when all the commercialization was occurring turning it into a machine. You definitely cannot throw out everything that happened there at the Brownsville Assembly of God
Marc,
Brother, I believe that you are spot on with
What you have shared on your experiences
at Toronto. I believe that it did start out as
a true move of God, but it got hijacked by
the enemy. The leadership bears much of
the responsibility for allowing manifestations
to become the focus. The Holy Ghost always
exalts and glorifies Jesus, and anytime we
make it about a particular sign and wonder
or a man, the Holy Spirit is grieved.
Mike
I was listening to a Derek Prince sermon and in it he said a friend of his went to Toronto and asked the Lord, "How much of this is of You?” And the Lord replied, "About 25%, which is more than what is going on in other churches.”
The Lord saw the positive side of 25% and wouldn't squash it; while we, mere humans beings, see the 75% and want to squash it dead. Just saying.
God bless,
Lisa
Lysa, I agree with you that there is a large
Segment of the Body of Christ that is so
obsessed with the counterfeit, that they are
missing out on what is truly of God. With
others. it is just the opposite, with them
anything supernatural is embraced as
coming from God . True discernment
discerns both the true and the false.
The Word exhorts us to "prove all things
and to hold fast to that which is good."
Mike
AbideinHim.....Lysa, I agree with you that there is a large Segment of the Body of Christ that is so obsessed with the counterfeit, that they are missing out on what is truly of God.
Mike
Mike, It's that "Master Of Deception" at work, but some Christians will never realize this. It's sad some get caught up in feeling the need to be the Church police, and are missing out on some truly awesome things going on in some Churches. Of course I am bias, I try to look for all the good things going on in the world, I have to because it helps me get through each day with a better attitude. I refuse to let old sluefoot and his ways rob me of my joy, in Jesus name!
"This is true. I was there at the early stage and deep repentance was THE ONLY message. I believe it changed later on when all the commercialization was occurring turning it into a machine. You definitely cannot throw out everything that happened there at the Brownsville Assembly of God"
Isn't this what we mean by fruit? The fruit was bad. It doesn't matter how good it started to look. The fruit was bad. Those men who were leading produced bad fruit.
It is absolutely nonsensical to say things like, "It started out as a great move of God, but then it fell apart."
Jesus said that he appointed us to bear fruit and that our fruit would remain. That is exactly why Jesus said what he did about false prophets when he said, "you will know a tree by its fruit."
We've become so indoctrinated with tolerance that everyone says, "don't throw the baby out with the bath water." That isn't in the scriptures. Jesus said the opposite. He said you would know a tree by it's fruits. It is a bad tree, because it produced bad fruit. End of story.
Hi havok20x,
Do you believe any of the revivals of the past where genuine ?
As far as I am aware they all fizzled out and many seemed to have disturbing endings.
Lets be slow to judge. Where there is true wheat to be found, the enemy is quick to sow in the tares.
Havok20x,
I disagree with you that the fruit was bad
that came out of the Brownsville Revival.
For one thing, you had strong, mature men
that were overseeing this revival. John
Kilpatrick, Steve Hill, and Michael Brown
were the main leaders.
. Thousands of
souls were saved, many backsliders
returned to The Lord, the saints were
refreshed, and many ministries were birthed
out of that move of God.
Repentance was the main message that
came forth from Steve Hill night after night.
I remember standing in line outside the
church before a service having fellowship
with a couple from England. I could sense
the presence of God outside the church.
The meetings were so refreshing.
Mike
Brethren in any movement of God the enemy will counterfeit the good thing that God is doing. This occurred during the Jesus movement. And if God be pleased to send another movement of the Spirit, Old Slewfoot, as Bill calls him, will counterfeit what God is doing.
What we need to do its be vigilant and through the guidance of the Holy Spirit expose the counterfeit. And rejoice in the true fruit of revival. In other words not throw out the baby with the bathwater.
Bearnaster.
Havok--
It might be helpful if you would clarify what you mean because you SEEM to be saying that if ANY bad fruit comes out of a revival then the whole revival was false or not of God.
But even revivals in the early church had some bad fruit. I suspect some of the 3000 men that were saved on the day of Pentecost went on to become some of the Judaizers that Paul railed against. But surely you would not say that Peter's sermon was not of God... at least I hope you wouldn't say that.
Well I can only speak for the UK, but the whole Toronto thing was a watershed moment for the Petecostal/Charismatic churches here. When that spirit started to come into the churches in the UK there were major divisions between those who rejected this false spirit and those that embraced it. The results for most of the churches that embraced Toronto was that a large number of folk left their church and new fellowships and churches started with more discernment about spiritual gifts and greater prominence to the word of God. Those churches that embraced Toronto have today become totally apostate.
Regarding the comment about 25% God and 75% error, well how would you like to drink something that had 75% poison to get the 25% good stuff. I don't believe God said that in the meaning of it is good that there is 25%. It goes against His very word and nature. Didn't Jesus say if we're even just luke warm He will vomit us up!
I agree with ROR on this.
TMK, The bible says 3000 souls were saved. It didn't say how many made a profession. And even if it was talking about 3000 making a profession, speculation doesn't make you right and doesn't validate your point.
Also, you do not understand what fruit is. I am not talking about individual impacts on people and fantastic experiences. I am talking about the entire thing not conforming and in any way, other than a smattering of labels or biblical-sounding jargon, to the pattern and teachings of the scriptures.
The Word-of-Faith movement is definitely heretical, not scripturally based, and just because the enemy successfully included even more christianese in the events means nothing.
The manifestations of the "Spirit" that were happening there have nothing to do with anything in Scripture. The great outpourings of the Spirit shown in Scriptures never looked like that--and they are the only examples we have to base a comparison on that we KNOW are true. All scripture is useful for doctrine. Experience must conform to the Scriptures.
We do need revival. And yes, the enemy can easily come in and cause problems. But that doesn't mean the revival is a failure. Look at Edwards. He helped make faithful converts who knew the Lord and followed him. Look at the reformation and how many people came to know the Lord then and how God was exalted. I am not saying because everyone didn't stay jam-up revived that it was a failure; I don't believe it was a failure at all. By the grace of God what Edwards and the reformers did is still producing fruit to this day, but that is because it wasn't based on fantastic manifestations of the Spirit, but on truth, scripture, and the glory of God in Jesus Christ!
Now look at Pensacola--signs...wonders...spasmodic movements...holy ghost glue...etc, etc, etc. Where's the glory of God? Where are those who are seeking the Lord?
No where.
Just because they preach repentance doesn't mean the people repent and turn to Jesus. They "repented" and turned to BAG and those men from whose mouths flowed rivers of unbiblical sewage. Those who come out of the pensacola revival espouse one thing--the pensacola revival. No, not the banner of Jesus Christ. They fight for manifestations and have trampled on the cross of Christ in order to make sure that everyone knows that the manifestations were legitimate. No one talks more of Jesus Christ and the glorious gospel. No. They speak signs and wonders and manifestations.
It is bad fruit.
But that is what Paul was telling Timothy--they no longer endure sound doctrine in this day.
Soooooo. What is a pure revival?
Bear :-)
Now I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away. Also there was no more sea. Then I, John, saw the holy city, New Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. And I heard a loud voice from heaven saying, "Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and He will dwell with them, and they shall be His people. God Himself will be with them and be their God. And God will wipe away every tear from their eyes; there shall be no more death, nor sorrow, nor crying. There shall be no more pain, for the former things have passed away.”
Then He who sat on the throne said, "Behold, I make all things new.” And He said to me, "Write, for these words are true and faithful.”
And He said to me, "It is done! I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End. I will give of the fountain of the water of life freely to him who thirsts. He who overcomes shall inherit all things, and I will be his God and he shall be My son.
This is a pure revival.
Havok,
You mentioned Jonathan Edwards as an
example of a true revival, and indeed it
was, better known as "THE Great
Awakening". Did you know that many of
the most respected preachers of that day
Opposed the Great Awakening" because
of the physical manifestations that were
taking place? . One of these men was
Charles Chauncy. Edwards defended the
Great Awakening and had tremendous
light on how to differentiate a true revival
from a false one,
Mike
I am not arguing over this anymore.
havok--
You seem to be speaking out of ignorance or getting info from discernment websites.
I agree that Toronto, in my opinion, was a joke for the most part. Those here who said it started out fine may very well be right- I have no reason to doubt them. But the streams that resulted are messed up.
Brownsville (Pensacola) is a different matter. I am sure there were some strange manifestations. But for you to say that men like Michael Brown and Steve Hill and Bob Gladstone who did a lot of the preaching were spewing unbiblical sewage is an extremely unwarranted denigration of their character. Why don't you go on Dr. Brown's website and listen to some of his sermons instead of just talking trash?
"Don't throw the baby out with the bath water" they cry!
But why is the baby playing in someone else's bath? Who put him in there? Get him back to his own house and bath!
Most of the threads here today, sure confuse me, we use to have some really healthy debates, don't know what happened, maybe it's under attack.
RE: ///But that is what Paul was telling Timothy--they no longer endure sound doctrine in this day.///
What is sound doctrine ?
When brothers speak of things that they first hand experienced , wisdom might suggest to listen and give the benifit of the doubt. And not to dismiss there testimonies based on ones narrow view of what sound doctrine might be.
Hi Heydave,
RE: ///Regarding the comment about 25% God and 75% error, well how would you like to drink something that had 75% poison to get the 25% good stuff. I don't believe God said that in the meaning of it is good that there is 25%. It goes against His very word and nature. Didn't Jesus say if we're even just luke warm He will vomit us up!///
Was Luther, Calvin, Zwingly and there fruits 100% good or how about 100% bad ?
I believe that at the begaining much good came from them but history reports a very disturbing ending.
I have to say that whatever sound doctrine is this blessed prayer by John Kilpatrick, "1997 Conference,” Jan. 7 (directing pastor of the Pensacola Revival) is unlikely to give rise to it. On the other hand self righteousness is likely to give rise to some really mean doctrine. Of course is that mean or mean? Do you know brother?
Words. It all just a game of words.
"Lord ”” congregation please bear with me ”” this is personal and it sounds strange but hear me. I ask the Lord to bear His sword and brandish it around your midsection, your lower extremities, where your sexual organs are. That the Holy Ghost cut off all the pollution that the devil has attached to you through bygone days of illicit promiscuous sexual activity. That the Lord begin to cut all of that pollution and all of that attack of the enemy. Where the devil has incarcerated you and imprisoned and intimidated you. And even when you had to violate your own conscience and your own testimony and your own ministry to satisfy that lust and that urge. I ask that the Lord brandish that sword and cut that lustful spirit off of you in the name of Jesus. Whew!"
It's taken my breath away and thats a fact?
TMK the real problem with Toronto as far as a sustained, discerned move was simple. But please understand that no disrespect is meant by what I say.
Toronto was like a 14 year old driving his dads car unsupervised. There was no foundational doctrine in most people there. All it takes is a basic look at the books and teaching of the day .
Once they started to try to understand what God was doing and applied their doctrines to it the whole thing went off.
To understand this is easy. We are 20 years down the road from those days and the teaching in those churches involved is still all personal experience stuff. It was all either extremely simple or wrong and very few ever wanted anything more.
The old line is true. All doctrine and no Spirit and you dry up. All Spirit and no doctrine and you blow up!
But my oh my those weeks before the human element touched it were beyond comprehension. I have never doubted what happened.
Marc mc
Andrew--
What bothers you about kilpatricks statements-- that he used the words sexual organs? Heck, we all got em and they have caused a lot of trouble for Christians and non Christians alike. A prayer that any demon of lust be separated seems like a good idea to me.
Now I realize you will not hear that type of praying in your typical baptist or presby church. But any praying against demonic influence would be desirable one would think.
Mr bill
The reason the thread is confusing is because you have certain persons speaking from personal experience or knowledge of certain preachers of the word who are being denigrated by others who have no first hand experience and who have never heard certain preachers of the word.
Plus you have certain cessationists who simply are not open to any manifestation of the HS whatsoever. That's fine because I used to be one.
The problem with any corporate move of God is the same problem that we all have with individual revival. We all have flesh that wars against the spirit. I think we would be hard pressed to find any corporate revival in which we could not discover the flesh of man in the mix. And I think we would be deceived if we could not recognize that in our own evaluations of these moves we are not also susceptible to the workings of our own flesh. Or do we believe that our own evaluations are always after the spirit and right on target Biblically?
During the last 20 years or so I have heard much of "revival". And I have been to a few of these great "moves". But I have realized that as far as I am concerned, none of these moves was worth a thing to me unless I decided to allow God to work a work of personal "revival" in me. Revival is not a corporate move of God. It is a vibrant and ongoing relationship with his on which I die to me and live in him. It is only then that I even begin to have the divine perspective on how he moves among his people.
Abuses...yes! People in the flesh and not in the spirit?...yes! But that is always a danger. False revival? Can there be such a thing? I have personally seen lasting fruit of the genuine working of God in Missouri that had Brownsville as its origin. I have also seen those who did not persevere in the race.
Well said, twayneb! I too have attended meetings which were called revivals, and nothing happened in me that wasn't directly connected to my own pursuit of God- in the meeting or out of it!
While I am comforted to know that revival is always as close as the cry of my heart and the sound of my lips, there is a thrill to see great numbers of people swarm to hear a Word from God. Sure there is bound to be bones in the meat, but as Ravenhill laments, better than being content with no fire at all.
Quote from: havok20x
Member
Re:\t
"I am not arguing over this anymore."
I didn't think anyone was arguing.... But my question would be to you..."Have you interviewed every person that walked through Brownsville's door's?" If not, then you surely cannot say it was all garbage.
twayneb and Sidewalk said it best.
Quote t:wayne and sidewalk said it best
Agreed and amen
What bothers you about kilpatricks statements-- that he used the words sexual organs? Heck, we all got em and they have caused a lot of trouble for Christians and non Christians alike. A prayer that any demon of lust be separated seems like a good idea to me.Now I realize you will not hear that type of praying in your typical baptist or presby church. But any praying against demonic influence would be desirable one would think. TMK
Mentioning ones sexual organs or for that matter someone else's seems hardly relevant to why I posted the prayer of Mr Kilpatrick. My comment was grounded in the fact that Havok20x was being resisted because he made a reference to believers in the last days not being willing to endure sound doctrine and he obviously linked that to Pensacola. If you read Havok20x comments again it is clear that the brother is concerned with doctrine and not precisely with manifestations. Which seems to be why he made reference to things coming out of mens mouths, in particular those many attempts which have been made to justify those things which are disturbing to some people. A few have discouraged him because they appear to be focusing on outward events such as laughter, or being slain in the Spirit, or other such things, whereas havok20x didn't mention these things. He spoke of the words which men use and how they reflect a lack of sound doctrine.
In that context I used the words, "what ever sound doctrine is" as a way of addressing the claim that things came out of the mouths of the leaders of the Pensacola Revival which were unsound. In order to resist suggesting what sound doctrine may be I simply made reference to the idea. But as you ask the question I would simply ask you to tell me precisely what do these words mean?
I ask the Lord to bear His sword and brandish it around your midsection, your lower extremities, where your sexual organs are.
Or these words:
That the Holy Ghost cut off all the pollution that the devil has attached to you through bygone days of illicit promiscuous sexual activity. That the Lord begin to cut all of that pollution and all of that attack of the enemy. Where the devil has incarcerated you and imprisoned and intimidated you.
Or what about this:
And even when you had to violate your own conscience and your own testimony and your own ministry to satisfy that lust and that urge. I ask that the Lord brandish that sword and cut that lustful spirit off of you in the name of Jesus.
We play with words and yet we rarely understand what they mean beyond the part which anyone would ordinarily understand.
This kind of prayer is complete nonsense. More over it attends to removing responsibility for our own actions. It would have been much easier to invite those sexual deviants to whom he was speaking to repent. One such decision on the part of the individual would have sufficed to remove both the desire and the part any unclean spirit had in this seeming compulsion to go against their own conscience, and continue in sexual sins. If not then those who were hearing this were not yet born again of the Spirit of God.
If we can accept that the only reasonable meaning of the "sword of the Lord" is in fact the Lord's words, this prayer amounts to asking the Lord to speak to your genitalia. In view of the rather clear fact that your genitalia are connected to your own body, which is in your possession, the responsibility lays with you as to how you make use of it. I won't go on no one has the stomach for it anyway. "Present the members of your body as a living sacrifice etc."
The AOG has introduced some rank heretics into the churches over the years and they have a great deal to answer for.
Do you yourself have a good knowledge of what these heresies are? Or where the historical account lays? It is possible to pin it down to individual men and women and specific times and places. It just takes a little research.
I understand that what he said was a little strange but the gist of it was that he was praying against demons of lust. I am not sure where the doctrinal error is unless you believe it is doctrinal error to pray against demonic influence. If that is the case then we just disagree.
A Baptist will pray "Lord please release this person from this demon if it be your will." A charismatic will command it to leave in Jesus' name. That is the biblical model.
I know I am coming into this late, and I, like others, do not wish to argue. But what so many people fail to understand is that there is a very real power of "soul", which through dynamic, repetitious music and emphatic preaching can electrify the emotions and summon tremendous crowds.
This soul power is very accessible through the "Christian" framework in particular, where emotional appeals are often made referencing fatherly love, warnings of eternal destruction - and these points are almost always punctuated by music. Certain men have great talent in oratory and are able to pique these deep, innate feelings we all have. I am not saying this is necessarily bad; emotions are part of us all. God created emotion and made us emotional creatures and emotion certainly has a healthy part in our relationship with God. It only becomes bad when we fail to distinguish between emotional manipulation and the Holy Spirit.
Many so-called "revivals" are nothing more than meetings where human emotion is manipulated within the framework and vernacular of Christ. This is why music is always imperative; it seems one cannot have a revival these days without loud music and repetitious choruses. Music is such a powerful medium. Most charismatic/pentecostal revival meetings are comprised of probably 70% or 80% music and 20% preaching once everyone is stirred up. And then, after the preaching, another 45 minutes of music and clapping and singing. But even though music is so emphasized and is such an integral ingredient for revival, I find it interesting that accounts of music accompanying gospel preaching is scarce at best in New Testament.
The mark of a true move of God has always been lasting fruit - fruit which remains. A move of the emotion - no matter how great - will not create lasting spiritual fruit. Whatever was stirred during the appeals of the preaching will eventually fizzle out and ones life will return to normalcy - that is, back to the same sins, same contention, same state of spiritless lethargy - once the revival ends.
I tell Christians to be very careful with the preachers they listen to, the ministerial books they read, the meetings they expose themselves to. Certain material can put you under emotional bondage under the assumption of spiritual freedom. We can become so reliant upon music, like a drug, to get us into God's "presence" (which, in reality, is but the presence of the heightened soul). Certain preachers know how to get you to weep, they have special stories to elicit emotion in the name of Jesus. Stories are good, but if you need gut-wrenching "stories" and powerful testimonies to keep you interested in spiritual matters, a dependency can develop, just like a drug, where you need more and more such inspirational ministry to keep you "on-fire" for God.
The Holy Spirit does not operate like this, needless to say. He does not employ rank emotion in order to keep us in love with God (as though God were a human lover, a man or woman of soulful rapport). My opinion is that most of these contemporary revivals pander only to the emotion in the name of Jesus (with good intention), but because the penetration only goes soul deep, when the "revival" ends so does the general interest in God.
Paul--
On another thread we were discussing Jonathan Edwards sermon "sinners in the hands of an angry God."
Doesn't it seem that Edwards was pandering to emotion in that sermon?
Doesn't it seem that Edwards was pandering to emotion in that sermon?
I agree with you.
Brother Paul,
You touched on a key point as to whether what people are experiencing is a true work of the Spirit of God or merely soulish manifestations. It it is God then true fruit will be produced and if it is of the soul, then it will quickly fade away.
On one hand music does stir up the emotional side of man, but also a true move of the Holy Spirit is often filled with Psalms, and hymns, and spiritual songs. This has been common in many revivals. The Welsh revival was characterized by much praise, worship, and a lot of singing.
To those that have their spiritual senses exercised there is a distinct difference in soulish manipulation of the emotions, and the work of the Spirit of God and the influence that it has upon the emotions.
Mike
In the very beginning in Toronto there was no preaching and very little music. When they began to teach after a few months they quenched the Spirit and it ended. We simply arrived and the mighty rushing wind started to blow through and touch everyone at their point of need.
It was a visitation of the Lord that was not led by anyone or anything. They had three areas, a coffee shop, the main church which was tiny and could only hold about 100 people, and a hall that led to a larger area the siz of a small gym. 90% of the time NOBODY was on the platform in the church.
The place where the Presence was strongest was the big area. It had no preaching or music the entire time we met there. It was just people crying, laughing, repenting and worshiping God in small groups or alone. There was no stage, no platform, no mikes no music, no hype, no agenda, no time limit, and no leader except God The Holy Spirit.
As for lasting fruit I can assure everyone here that know one who was in Toronto when it was at the Airport Church believes God has any tolerance for a single secret or pet sin in your life. We all understood why He is named the Holy Spirit.
marcmc
The place where the Presence was strongest was the big area. It had no preaching or music the entire time we met there. It was just people crying, laughing, repenting and worshiping God in small groups or alone. There was no stage, no platform, no mikes no music, no hype, no agenda, no time limit, and no leader except God The Holy Spirit.
I have to say maromc that this is a view of the Toronto Airport which is completely alien to me. Can I ask you brother who was the lead pastor at this time? Can you confirm that when you say there was no music that this is literally what you mean to say? Similarly that there was no preaching whatsoever? No human leading whatsoever? I know from your previous posts that you spoke well of these early events, but you used a street name for the venue you attended. Was there just one venue?
Please don't be offended but most of the people I know will have difficulty with this statement. I don't personally, even though I utterly reject what must have followed, if as you say the beginning was as this. Do you know precisely how things went so wrong?
I appreciate your post it cast a different light on things for me at least. It is good to get a balance on things and to be able to bear a true witness in all things even if that is like sucking lemons.
On the subject of the Toronto Airport fellowship, Art Katz has given a very clear word on this. It will be well-worth saints time to review.
The Love Of The Truth by Art Katz
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kKhyjDdMWOE
OK this is from memory.
I live an hour north of Toronto and was attending a small church here. At a very typical Sunday service some friends came up to me and asked if I had heard what had happened at a church that was called at that time The Toronto Airport Vineyard on Dixie Rd in Toronto. The pastor was John Arnott and his wife's name was Carol.
My wife and I went down to the church the next night and As we had arrived a few minutes late we were near the very back of a very small church with John just talking and making a few announcements. At that time I did not know who he was. And I will be honest I never thought anything was really going on at.
Within 30 minutes without any warning there was shift in the room and what could be describe as a symphony of prayer, songs, laughter and joy simply erupted.
I later found out that Randy Clark had come up for a couple of meetings that had been planned months before. Randy had been in Tulsa burnt out and Rodney Howard Brown had prayed for him. He was then in Toronto and what was happening in Florida began to happen there.
There was random music in the main church but never in the big area they called an overflow area, there was no preaching like in The Brownsville church, no sermons, I never saw John or Carol Arnott or Randy Clark act like they were in charge. It was totally free to the Spirit and they were in the river with us. I spoke to them many times and they wanted it to be free.
My wife and I continued to go down nightly for around 2 months virtually every night for about 8 hours plus the hour drive each way. And like I said we were never tired during that period.
It went off as soon as they started to teach more here an d there. People began to use it as a backdrop for their ideas and doctrines. There was nothing outrageous it was just irrelevant to what was happening. The other Pastors and leaders became threatened and started to come against it and they began to defend it. That's when I left. It went on to be world wide and unrecoginzable. The first 2 months were pure freedom and the ark should have been left alone. IMO
I watched the Katz video and that was not what was going on in the beginning in TO but I can't speak to what has happened for the past 20 years. Please bear in mind that by the time most people visited or observed what was going on it was not what it had been.
I would seriously caution members from commenting on things they did not first hand experience.
Marc mc
I do want to ask you guys what your expecting God to do in this hour. I mean really? I personally love how the Lord has allowed the church to paint itself into the corner. Pretty soon it will have to actually ask Him what they should do. I have never been more expectant of the Lord rolling up His sleeves as I am in this hour.
Because I can say that besides what happened in Toronto 20 years ago. The church within a hundred miles in every direction from we're I live has accomplish next to nothing as far as putting His enemies beneath His feet.
Marc mc
These are the types of things that were glorified as revival in these meetings:
John Scotland Gets an Impartation of the Drunken Glory in Toronto
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cs61g7_bYgM
That's 11 years after I was there. And I would not have stayed there for 11 minutes.
Marc mc
I later found out that Randy Clark had come up for a couple of meetings that had been planned months before. Randy had been in Tulsa burnt out and Rodney Howard Brown had prayed for him. He was then in Toronto and what was happening in Florida began to happen there.
I never saw John or Carol Arnott or Randy Clark act like they were in charge.
This witness of yours brother sets the date as January 1994. Randy Clark was booked for a four day session in mid January. In the end he stayed for two months. As you were there for two months then you must have been at one of the first meetings which is marked as the start of the Toronto Revival. There were 120 people present on the first night and the building itself was a 425 seat venue. Within the first year between January 1994 and October 1994 the meeting grew from 320 to just over 1000. It was mid summer before there was a significant queue to get in the venue.
The one thing which stands out from the ministry of Randy Clark is that the central claim is the necessity to physically touch others to pass on the blessing, This is of course consistent with the claims of Rodney Howard Brown. It is essentially something which is passed on by physical contact.
As we had arrived a few minutes late we were near the very back of a very small church with John just talking and making a few announcements. At that time I did not know who he was. And I will be honest I never thought anything was really going on at.
I never saw John or Carol Arnott or Randy Clark act like they were in charge. It was totally free to the Spirit and they were in the river with us. I spoke to them many times and they wanted it to be free.
Praise God I can put the lemon down. For a moment there I thought that I was going to have to do some real research. Just to say it brother. Rodney Howard Brown is a rank heretic. I would not even allow that man to tie my shoelace. He is an arch deceiver and a false prophet of some magnitude.
As to what Art Katz said in the video.
His comments were actually rather restrained and really hinged on two ideas. The first is that the church is reaping what it has sown. This is especially due to the church in the USA. The rest is nation by nation. The second is that many believers simply do not discern spiritual reality at all because they fail to differentiate between the soul and the spirit. It is true that Art made a point of emphasising the effect that music can have on the mind of individuals as well as there emotions, and you say there was no in the overflow but was sporadically in the room you were in as you were in the main building near to the back.
However this deception was a planned process and it was specifically intended to be passed between men hand to hand. You may well wonder how that is possible but its easy enough to grasp if you comprehend that demonic influence passes from hand to hand as well as through the air.
Finally brother you are very wrong about one thing. It is not necessary to witness something oneself to know what madness looks like when it has been pressed onto the whole world in full detail, even in boastings, by the very men and women who were responsible for it. It is only necessary to read what they have said and to ask the Lord Himself. As Art said in the video, it is the love of the truth which is costly and not the knowledge of what is true. Forgive me if I have seemed to lead you on in any way, but I had to ask the questions in view of your original post which is so profoundly at odds with what the man who started it has said. Arnott himself claimed on the 20th October 1994 that the first nights meeting was a planned event and that the majority of the church membership were on the floor laughing and carrying on. I have never read, or heard of any events as orderly and calm as you witnessed yourself. That includes in the books and testimonies of those who were there from the very first night.
http://www.catchthefire.com/About/History
The above link is a revised version of an article which was written just one year after the Toronto Revival started. It is therefore pertinent to what was said at that time regarding dates and venues etc. The exact start date of the first night of Randy Clark preaching was January 20th 1994. On January 20th 1995 the venue was moved into a 3000 seater venue on
On October 20th 1994 the following article was written and published which includes the planned nature of this event in Toronto specifically in relation to the outcome. This was no planned move of God it was the planned move of men.
"Last November, during a Vineyard leadership gathering in Palm Springs, California, Arnott learned that Clark had experienced powerful manifestations in ministry since Howard-Browne prayed for him. Arnott invited Clark to a January conference at his church, which he felt had been faithful but lately mostly routine in its religious affections.
On January 20, about 120 people gathered at the Airport Vineyard. Fresh from their Argentine and Tulsa encounters, Arnott says he and Clark both felt a heightened sense of faith. At the service, most church members fell on the floor "laughing, rolling, and carrying on," recalls Arnott. Clark ended up staying at the church for two months."
http://www.christianitytoday.com/ct/1994/october24/4tc078.html
I recounted the time from memory alone. Every word I said was how I remember it. I heard most of what you wrote back then as many came out against the meetings.
But my question to you is simply this. Where is God? Because wheather you know it or like it you have just attributed the Toronto meetings to the Devil. Right?
marcmc
I recounted the time from memory alone. Every word I said was how I remember it. I heard most of what you wrote back then as many came out against the meetings.But my question to you is simply this. Where is God? Because wheather you know it or like it you have just attributed the Toronto meetings to the Devil. Right?
There are some brethren who attribute these kind of events directly to Satan and make no mistake in saying it. In my experience and little knowledge this seems to be more generally with brethren who regard the gift of tongues as of Satan regardless as to the context or the balance which is presented. There are a few brethren who have the gift of tongues and who also make such unequivocal statements as well.
My own background spiritually before repentance and faith into Christ was the occult. So fortunately I am able to make a distinction which many believers find a difficult one to make. This is the distinction between a man and Satan. When you are dealing with someone who is openly occult in their activities then it may well be reasonable to assert that they are serving Satan, but where we have men who take the Lord's name and then practise occult methodologies in their ministry this seems a more difficult to do. Despite this difficulty it is necessary to say that some men are openly demonic and occult even when they take the Lord's name. One such man is Rodney Howard Brown.
Even with Rodney Howard Brown it is both possible and necessary to make the distinction between the man and Satan. The man who boasts in the things of God, gives ground to Satan, who is measurably more wicked than the man.
One of the disturbing things about these type of ministries is the fact that true believers often say that they not only did not discern anything demonic, but that they definitely knew the presence of God. Art Katz addresses that simple point in the video Greg posted right at the beginning. It speaks of God looking upon the heart and meeting the man according to his heart condition. But what of the vast majority of those who are present? On what basis do they believe they are meeting with God when they go after a man, adore him, praise him, applause him and encourage him in his madness? How will God deal with such as these? This answer is the most sobering reality that any believer can know. It is to be handed over to a delusion by God Himself.
As for why it is that it is often impossible to precisely discern the activity of demonic agents in these meetings is of course because the man himself is the demonic agent of his own choosing, knowing in his own heart that he is taking the place of God and wielding the power of God as a magicians wand for his own ends. If you find that difficult to understand you only have to recall that Judas was one of those who came back excited that even demons were subject to the name of the Lord. Was Judas ever right in his heart?
The above link is more specific and explanatory of my own personal understanding.
You ask where is God in all of this? I would say that to understand that question in context of the Toronto Revival you need to make a profound separation between the true activity of God and the real activity of Satan.
Men like Rodney Howard Brown believe that God works through the air. They mistakenly accept at some point in their walk the sorceric understanding that power can move through the air, without realising that God Himself is not One who works through the air. The Lord's word to Nicodemus concerning how it is that men are born again, it misapplied and the difference is the difference of a sorcerer or a true minister by faith. The real meaning of John 3:8 is well known and it simply is an assertion that the Holy Spirit (not the wind) breathes (not blows) where He wills. In short the Holy Spirit saves men according to His own sovereign purposes and will. Thereafter whilst it is God's hand which can be spoken of in the wind which blows and which the senses perceive, the wind coming from the East unto the West is nevertheless the wind and not the Holy Spirit. Men like Rodney Howard Brown mistakenly confuse the prince of the power of the air and the Holy Spirit because they do not realise that the Holy Spirit is not a mighty rushing wind, but is like a mighty rushing wind. The reality of God is that He can move and act upon all things simultaneously and when this comes to men it is from the inside out and not the outside in.
So as you say brother whether I like it or know it I have just attributed the Toronto meetings to the devil. Yes brother that is it in plain speech.
So then let's just say for a second your right. And bless you brother you like many really feel you have a real handle on the false. Where is the real?
I'm serious when I said before, where is God? and I feel He has let the church paint itself into a corner. Because look around my friend. Post a video from your next Sunday service, pan the faces of Gods victorious in your congregation. The Church in North America is invisible on the social landscape today, simply ignorable. Do you think we need more sermons? We live in a time when many Christians don't want to hear preaching at all. Our society is crumbling around our feet.
So if He is coming back for a bride without spot or wrinkle. Full of love, unity and repentance. I saw that happen in front of my eyes once. I beg you to please tell us if that was Satan what is Gods REAL for that to happen in this hour? Because 20 years later our world is 20 times darker. So please do share the real.
The only way to recognize a fake $10 bill is to first have a real one.
Marc mc
So many of the posters on here truly do crack me up. They are hilarious.
In the first 15 minutes or so of the audio Richard Owen Roberts attacks Toronto and Brownsville as being "false revivals".
Here is what astounds me.
1. He flatly states that he never went to Toronto. He knows nothing whatsoever first hand. His ENTIRE ARGUMENT over Toronto was based on someone telling him that when they were at Toronto they heard some folks laughing while someone was reading verses from Isaiah. That's it. The full sum of his basis for making a decision is within that sentence.
Richard Owen Roberts how do you know much of the happenings in Toronto were not of God? Well ...he heard some hearsay from a guy that some people laughed while another read scriptures from Isaiah. Richard Owen Roberts is that the full sum and content of your argument? Yes, yes it is.
Unbelievable. Only in the church are we this stupid.
2. Richard Owen Roberts flatly states he also never went to Pensecola/Brownsville. He was invited to go but refused having made a judgement over something he was completely ignorant of concerning any first hand knowledge. He then instructs a lady who is going not to go ... but she will not be dissuaded. He instructs her to find and ask the chief of police during her one night there if there is a noticeable impact or reduction in crime. He states that she spoke to the chief of police and he said there was still plenty of crime in Pensecola. Richard Owen Roberts then uses this as his only means of rejecting the Brownsville revival. He said some lady spoke to the chief of police and the chief said there was plenty of crime left in Brownsville/Pensecola.
A few responses to Richard Owen Roberts' judgments.
A. Pensecola has a metro area of of well over 450,000 people. Richard Owen Roberts expects his listeners to believe this lady drove into town and coincidentally happened to find the chief of police in a large metro area just hanging at a coffee shop. The chief had nothing better to do than shoot the breeze with a tourist about the happenings at a local church. Forgive me if I actually find his story to be the most unbelievable part about this.
B. Richard Owen Roberts used the Welsh revival as a means of discrediting the Brownsville revival. He stated that all crime stopped in Wales. Not an entirely true statement but it is certainly a historical fact that crime was reduced to a trickle. Ironically by Richard Owen Roberts' standards the great outpouring of the Holy Spirit in the book of Acts 2 was not a true revival. The Samaritan revival in Acts 8 wasn't either. In fact virtually no move of God in the book of Acts meets his test of completely taking all crime from a city. It doesn't appear that even the Apostle Paul ever saw a true revival based on the criteria by which Richard Owen Roberts is judging. Or will he change the standards to fit his bias based on whoever he is passing judgment on? By his own standards he must certainly reject most of the book of Acts. Most major historical revivals must be rejected as well. It is true a few affected the communities enough that crime virtually stopped.. praise God for that. However, it was normally in smaller population centers where folks knew each other. In larger metro areas with lots of folks coming in and out of the city it has rarely ended crime in the entire city. However, specific areas have at times been largely affected.
C. Richard Owen Roberts' problem for me concerning the crime stat is that I actually was in the Brownsville meetings several times. I have actually heard with my ears police officers on the platform tell of the reduction in crime. I have spoken with folks that were on the teams of people out street witnessing in the bars, to the prostitutes, and the addicts. I saw their ministries amongst the down and outers being carried by the true Gospel and the power of the Holy Spirit. Richard Owen Roberts' yarn of a lady he asked to meet the chief of police... who then miraculously found him in her one night there... and he had time to shoot the breeze with the tourists about local churches ... all as he administered the affairs of his office in a large metro area approaching a half million people seems utterly unbelievable. Add to that the fact that I have heard officers in Brownsville flatly reject his story and give a 180 degree opposite account of the happenings there. I have also seen the ministries they were engaged in with my own eyes. I have no choice but to call this "story" by Richard Owen Roberts a probable work of fiction produced to confirm preconceived prejudices and bias.
Unbelievable. Only in the church are we this stupid.
It was asked earlier what Michael Brown and Steve Hill would say about this. Michael wrote a book about that very thing. It is titled ''LET NO ONE DECEIVE YOU". I would encourage you to get a copy and read it if you want the truth. However, you can also go on believing guys that were never there and have no actual clue... but profess themselves as experts. Only in the church are we dumb enough to do that. If you want the truth then go read Steve Hills messages ... go listen to 'WHITE CANE RELIGION" or any of the messages at those nightly meetings. Perhaps the most clear and consistent presentation of the Gospel in this country in decades. Read Hill's books and listen to the sermons preached there if you actually want the truth ... a few are on this site. Read Brown's book if you actually want the truth.
However, you can reject those ideas and go on believing opinions of people based upon their ignorance of the facts under discussion.
In the final word I quote from Dr. Michael Brown's book, "LET NO ONE DECEIVE YOU". It is not a false revival .... it is however a false criticism aimed at it. Go read, listen, and see for yourself with an open mind.
you know what truly "cracks me up"?.....correction, you know what makes me long for Heaven?
how much religionists LOVE to argue religion.
back in the old days, there was no internet, so they could get face to face and do it, and that would lead to stakes and fires, and murder, war, beheadings, etc.
Solomon, I am NOT directing this to YOU...no no....i'm just commenting, I love Michael Brown...I just when I saw the first post, I KNEW this was going to turn into another low light on this forum.
sad.
RE: ///back in the old days, there was no internet, so they could get face to face and do it, and that would lead to stakes and fires, and murder, war, beheadings, etc.
///
That does seem to be church history
by sermonindex on 2014/5/15 21:44:56
These are the types of things that were glorified as revival in these meetings:John Scotland Gets an Impartation of the Drunken Glory in Toronto
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cs61g7_bYgM
how many times have I myself posted on the sad circus that is John Scotland?....or John Crowder?
you probably wont answer my question, but whats worse?...Scotland's childishness?...or Doug Phillips head of the "Bible Patriarchy" movement adulterous, child molesting fornicating of his family's "nanny"?
here's one of MANY articles on the subject:
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/julie-ingersoll/doug-phillips-biblical-patriarchy_b_5151442.html
point being, it is SO EASY to discern what topics will lead to divisive mud slinging scrums, and YOU have the kill switch.
we get two hits when you post up Duncan Campbells account of revival in the Hebrides, but when you allow the chickens to be fed with more anti Pentecostal postings, we easily get up to 100 posts.
you think God's going to bless us with Revival with that kind of dichotomy?
I've seen it get so underlying UGLY, that if the two bro's going at it on the Net here, could get their hands on one another.........OR one poster taking a stance, whilst a horde of posters oppose him?.....man they would have that oak brush piled up, underneath some luckless soul....ready to burn him.
and right here....on this forum.
Brethren if you do not have the stomach for it then back out but spare us the nonsense of how bad all this is. It is tiresome and pathetic. Solomon your post is just a mockery and an offence. You ought to be ashamed of yourself for what you have written. It could be taken to pieces for its lack of intelligence and its obvious inaccuracies.
What happened at Toronto ought to have you on your knees whoever you are because it represents something more profoundly wrong with the churches than most here appear to comprehend. In the end it is your children who are going to receive in their own bodies the consequences.
I know that Toronto gave birth to the Bethel/bill Johnson stream. I was caught up in that very briefly a couple of years ago. Way too many red flags.
But I am a regular listener of mike browns radio show and have listened to almost every message of his that is available on line and I am telling you that you have to be careful in besmirching his character. He is taking extreme heat right now over his new book Can You be Gay and Christian. He needs our support and prayers.
Hello there amrkelly-
Oh my. That is a direct shot you take at me. However, I also take it with no offense and with a grain of salt.
I made no judgement of Toronto whatsoever in my post. Read it again. Please show where I made ANY judgement about Toronto at all. Where???
The ONLY point I made was that a person that has no actual knowledge of a situation is a poor place to get information about it. You disagree? Should I ask those who do not know anything about you, have not actually met you, or spent time with you to get an accurate picture of you? Or... should I actually talk to you, your family, friends, acquaintances, and watch you in different life situations if I want to see an accurate picture of you? How would you want things to be done unto you?
In fact that was my only point in the entire post. Go research and get information for yourself if you want the truth.
I am very wary of the people who say not to research for myself and to simply take their word for it. THAT IS the way to deception.
you stated
Solomon you post is just a mockery and an offence. You ought to be ashamed of yourself for what you have written.
Hmmm .... thanks, I guess. I have often felt that way about many of your posts. However, I don't recall ever voicing it in text and kept it to myself.
I wrapped my post up with this
It was asked earlier what Michael Brown and Steve Hill would say about this. Michael wrote a book about that very thing. It is titled ''LET NO ONE DECEIVE YOU". I would encourage you to get a copy and read it if you want the truth. However, you can also go on believing guys that were never there and have no actual clue... but profess themselves as experts. Only in the church are we dumb enough to do that. If you want the truth then go read Steve Hills messages ... go listen to 'WHITE CANE RELIGION" or any of the messages at those nightly meetings. Perhaps the most clear and consistent presentation of the Gospel in this country in decades. Read Hill's books and listen to the sermons preached there if you actually want the truth ... a few are on this site. Read Brown's book if you actually want the truth.
Regardless of your personal attacks at me I stand by that as good counsel. Do you disagree? If so why would you want people to not research and find the truth for themselves as opposed to getting their beliefs fed to them by you or someone else? Why? Why would you want people to get their beliefs about this topic from you as opposed to researching themselves and actually getting the first hand accounts?
I have absolutely no idea what you are talking about Solomon.No idea at all. Your post was a mockery of an elderly man who has spent his whole life seeking to bring glory to God and he has done it without controversy and without stain. That was my simple point. And Solomon any time you believe it will serve the Lord's purposes to name me and put me to an open shame do it brother. It will be required at your hand as my words are at my hand.
"After three years of being in the thick of the Toronto blessing our Vineyard assembly in Scarborough ( East Toronto) just about self destructed. We devoured one another, with gossip, backstabbing, division, sects criticism etc. After three years of 'soaking,' praying for people, shaking, rolling, laughing, roaring, ministering at TACF on their prayer team, leading worship at TACF, preaching at TACF, basically living at TACF we were the most carnal, immature and deceived Christians that I know. I remember saying to my friend and senior pastor at Scarborough Vineyard Church in 1997 that ever since the Toronto Blessing came we have just about fallen to bits! He agreed!"
I made a point of highlighting the prayer by the lead pastor John Kilpatrick and the Brownsville revival earlier where he spoke about the sword of the Lord being used to cut away sexual sin in the lives of those he prayed for. I was asked why this was such a wrong way to pray. Here is the answer to that question taken from the Toronto Revival.
"One example was when some of our people returned from a meeting there asking us if we had all received the golden sword of the Lord? I asked them what they were talking about thinking that it was some prophetic reference to the Holy Scriptures but they said, ‘no, its not the Bible, it’s an invisible golden sword that only the really pure can receive. If taken in an unrighteous fashion then the Lord would kill you. But if you are holy enough to receive it then you can wield this sword and it will heal aids, Cancer etc. and bring salvation. How one wielded this sword was by pretending to have this invisible sword in your hand and motioning to strike people with it when in prayer! I thought while even in deception at this time that the TACF had become Looney bins! This was purportedly first received by Carol Arnott and then given to the ones holy enough to receive it!"
This incident above took place in the Scarborough satellite church to the Vineyard main assembly in Toronto. It is the witness of one of the pastors in that church.
The whole of his repentance letter can be found here:
http://truthforfree.com/html/article_torontopastorrepents.html
Hey Amrkelly-
The only other thing I would add to what I have said is that I actually enjoyed the rest of Richard Owen Robert's message linked in the op. It was a good word and I pretty much agree with it. I suspect that anyone who truly knows revival history and hungers for it does as well. I would mention that his asking folks to , "visualize yourself as a coffee cup", would be railed on as absolute demonic heresy if other ministers had said it. I personally thought it was a fine analogy that made a great point. However, I am keenly aware that if other ministers made the exact same analogy they would be verbally crucified on this board.
In fact if he had started the message at about the 18 minute mark and went from there I would be one of the heartiest amens. However, it is his staunch attack of things he knows nothing of that are in error. By all accounts that I can find he is a cessationist and anything that does not conform to that is rejected by him.
One word about the "laughing" issue. It never really bothered me if kept in the proper place or context. For example - back during that time frame ... maybe 1996 or 1997 I suppose ... I dealt with it quiet often. One morning I was preaching in an Assemblies of God Church in that time frame. Maybe 325 people or so were there in attendance that morning. Worship was intense with the presence of God. People entered in and were truly experiencing His presence. The worship lasted for a couple of hours I think. It was very refreshing for people that enjoy God's presence and worshipping Him in intensity and intimacy.
After this time of worship I transitioned into the morning message. It was about being witnesses in our daily lives. To take the message of Christ into our families, jobs, schools, etc. with the power of The Holy Spirit. As I read a scripture text several ladies burst into peels of laughter. I let them finish, smiled, then went on. They did so a second and then a third time. Everyone in that room looked to me to see what would be done. I knew these ladies personally. I knew their families. They all loved Jesus and would never purposely cause harm to a church or ministry. All it took to fix the problem was a decent amount of leadership skill. I simply stopped and told them that I was glad they were enjoying God's presence. I was glad they were refreshed. I told them that at the proper time or place I might well laugh with them. However, we had just spent a couple hours worshipping God and enjoying His presence. Now was the time The Holy Spirit had set aside for imparting God's eternal Word to His people. He was not prompting them to laugh and interrupt Himself from speaking His Word into people hearts. I asked if they would please hold that laughter while God's Word was spoken into peoples lives. They graciously nodded yes of course and were model saints the rest of that day and years I ministered there.
Those ladies weren't being "used of the devil". They weren't even "flesh controlled". They were people hungry to experience the presence of God. They were just immature and needed a little guidance and leadership. That's all. All of those ladies were tremendous blessings to that church and community in the years to come. They labored in prayer, fasting, support, and in doing benevolence giving to the needy. They won several people to Christ in their evangelistic witnessing on their jobs as well.
I lost two families from the church that day because I did not publicly rebuke and dress those ladies down in front of everyone. However, if I had done that it would have just crushed them. They were just immature baby Christians that loved God and simply needed some guidance ... which they were quiet happy to receive and then grew!
I have seen that a great deal of that in"manifestation" issues. Often the person truly loves God, is not in any kind of demonic or flesh issues... they are just immature not understanding the proper times or places for certain actions.
It is the duty of truly mature spiritual leaders to grow and mature new converts. It is not to so damage and destroy them that they retreat into a shell and never bring forth the actual gifts God gave them. I have seen that FAR to often. An immature Christian makes a mistake and some spiritual Pharisee blasts them instead of lovingly guiding them so the person recluses spiritually never to emerge again. SO MANY have been destroyed this way.
I have seen that a great deal of that in"manifestation" issues. Often the person truly loves God, is not in any kind of demonic or flesh issues... they are just immature not understanding the proper times or places for certain actions.
At one time, things like the Brownsville Revival and other Holy Ghost "experiences" charmed me. I came under the impression that that was the norm! Anything less than a fiery, manifestation-filled Christianity was but lukewarm, compromised, dead religiosity.
Bless you Solomon for your gracious response. I was also encouraged by the account of the two ladies. Your words to them was clearly seasoned with grace and mercy and I have no doubt that your assessment of their immaturity as the root of their laughter was sound enough. It is always a pleasant thing to be able to show kindness and grace in dealing with these things.
As someone who doesn't pastor a church (thankfully) I find that I do blast people, but the context is always far more sinister than two sweet sisters who love the Lord. The most wicked men and women I have met have been of the house of the Lord and they too believe they are serving the Lord. Their activities are covered by the very same graciousness of the many, who themselves, desiring to please God, find they have in the end been drawn into something which costs them more dearly than a few moments of correction could have ever cost them.
When Israel was taken into captivity their pain was real and their loss was complete. Only a remnant came back. We are in the very same place today. We have to wake up and stop looking to men and start looking to Christ Himself for our understanding and light. The Holy Spirit is given to us in Christ Name and He comes to reveal Christ and not Himself. Whether a person is a cessation or not is irrelevant as long as they are not judgmental and bitter with it, or full of conceit and pride because they have a better thing. Those like myself who believe in and experience the gifts of the Holy Spirit and cherish and covet His advocacy and comfort are just as likely to fall into the very same pride. The more precious thing is Christ Himself and not the gifts of the Holy Spirit. Wisdom would have us to not despise these gifts, but wisdom would also have us to handle them with fear and trembling.
When genuine revival comes it will be marked by fruit and not gifts of the Spirit. Perhaps in the end we will be among those who see such a thing and comprehend its meaning in our own bodies with gratitude and thankfulness. When the King gives the release will we be willing to yield fully and effectually? We imagine that we will, but it will not be this way when that hour comes. Many who take the Lord's name will not yield and will not in the end welcome the distinction. It is they who will hate the few that did rejoice in that day of separation who will prove to be the more demonic in their attitudes and actions.
Brethren,
I believe we have come to some good questions, conclusions as well as searching for our own hearts in attitudes in this thread. I think at this point may we leave not seeking to condemn older revival movements but praying for revival in our own lives.
There have always been excesses and the counterfeit. These have abounded of recent in the last 50 years confounded and muddling the true. May God give us a great love for the Scriptures as well as a great desire for the Baptism of the Spirit. We must have both.
Principle 18 - The Satanic Counterfeit
https://ia700800.us.archive.org/21/items/principlesbook/principle18.pdf
It will be good not to carry on the thread speaking of specific revivals in the past.
This thread is locked.
Wow, I am surprised that this post has aroused so much angst. I am not a cessationist in the slightest but I tend to agree with Richard Owen Roberts...but only now, 20 years after the fact:)
When I was first introduced to both these revivals I was very open to what others were claiming them to be. For the record I visited both places in the 90's and had a great deal to do with RHB and the so called "laughing movement".
Several years ago however I was praying and the Lord began to deal with me regarding the whole laughing blessing and showed me that I had opened myself up to "another spirit”. There was much confession and repentance that night. Again, I am not a cessationist and have a big problem with the way people like John Macarthur swing all the way to the other side of the pendulum, but at the same time I am not so "full of myself” that I cannot accept that it is possible for the enemy to delude me once in a while:) It happened to Judas, to Peter and to many others apparently - if you read the Apostle Pauls letters. In fact I can look at my life over the decades and I am very certain that many things that happened to me and that I participated in, where not instigated by the Holy Spirit. I have met only a few people in my lifetime however, who are willing to admit these same things. They are intent to take it to their grave that these manifestations and so called revivals were from God! I wish they would at least be open to the notion that it is actually possible that they might have been a part of a huge counterfeit of the real thing. Impossible, they say! Pride is a very stubborn thing, and the people who have the greatest trouble recanting are pastors who invested so much of their lives and ministry in these things. Urging and encouraging so many of Gods people to "get into the river". I have talked to many pastors from those old days who still believe with all their heart that it was the Holy Spirit…pastors to whom I am very closely related.
Regarding the sermon I posted. I have no problem taking ROR at his word when he recounts his anecdotes about these revivals. Why would he lie? But this not even his point…the overarching theme of his sermon is the "marks of true revival”. And he is not merely basing this on a few second hand stories - this is a very recent message and as such it has been 20 years since Toronto and Brownsville. ROR can now say, along with many others, with 20/20 hindsight that they do not have the marks of "true revival” as seen in the scriptures and church history. That’s what he is stating and it is very sound message and one we should really heed as we move into deeper into the 21st century, where I am sure we will need to be even MORE careful of these kinds of things (think Todd Bentley...groan).
ROR has had 20 years to reflect on these things and a lifetime of walking with the Lord and with some of the greatest men of God of the 20th century and from his meticulous study of revival. I get the sense that this brother is no "slouch”…that he knows a thing or two about these things and I for one are very glad that I was able to make his acquaintance on Sermon Index!
May we continue in prayer and believe God for Him to deal with us as He has done so down through church history, leaving in His wake the "marks of true revival” not only in our personal lives but our families and our churches.
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