Can the bible be trusted?

This question is asked more and more these days. What are some answers to this question?

A person cannot just simple say 'Because it is the Word of God' That is like saying 'Because I said so' which is no reason at all.
How can we prove the Bible can be trusted?

John

So the bible is true because it gives revelation? But what if someone doesn't get revelation? How do you show someone the bible can be trusted?

John, Truth must be accepted or rejected on its own. what are you going to use to prove that truth is true? Truth is the measuring stick.

The bible is the truth. It is the word of God. Those who demand proof from outside the Word of God that the word of God is truth have usually determined to reject it already. We can sometimes point to evidences that support the veracity of scripture such as fulfilled prophecy, accurate archaeology, agreement with secular histories, and the like. But none of these things can ultimately prove that the bible is truth since the bible is truth itself. Ultimately His must be accepted by faith. Once we accept him by faith, then we begin to understand and see clearly.

How do you prove the Bible to be true to an Atheist who believes it has been corrupted?

You can't just say the Bible is true because it is. It has to be true for a reason.

Q1. Did Moses write the Pentateuch (Genesis to Deuteronomy)?

Q2. How do we know that?

John: The moment we fall into the trap of trying to prove the Bible true to a person who has chosen to reject it, we have missed it. The scripture is truth, THE truth. To what are you going to compare it to prove it true? There are many evidences we can point to and say, "see, the Bible said that it would be this way and it is." But those evidences do not and cannot prove the Bible true. They only testify of its inherent truth.

If I don't miss my guess, deep down the athiest you speak of is not a person who is genuinely seeking truth. He has chosen to reject the truth and hopes to feel better about his choice by finding supposed contradictions in the Bible. If you cannot satisfy his questions, and you will probably not be able to do so no matter how iron clad you think your argument is, he will feel justified in his choice. But deep down this person knows that the Bible is truth. I know this because the Bible says it is this way in the first part of Romans.

Rom 1:17-25
(17) For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.
(18) For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;
(19) Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.
(20) For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:
(21) Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.
(22) Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,
(23) And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things.
(24) Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves:
(25) Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen.

I know Josh McDowell and others have written some great defenses of the veracity of scripture. I love good apologetics. These books are great. But if I don't miss my guess, you could load your athiest friend down with these books and he might still choose to reject the Bible. Ultimately this person is going to have to decide to accept God and His word as truth. I am not saying that it is pointless or fruitless to present evidences or a strong case for the veracity of scripture to an athiest. God can work through these things, and He has. But I am saying that there is no way to go about proving the Bible true so that the athiest is going to change his mind based on his own intellect. Ultimately he is going to have to accept the Bible as truth as his starting point. It is ultimately about him choosing to turn to the God he has rejected.

Turn: Yes he did. We know this because...

2Co 3:15
(15) But even unto this day, when Moses is read, the vail is upon their heart.

1Co 9:9
(9) For it is written in the law of Moses, Thou shalt not muzzle the mouth of the ox that treadeth out the corn. Doth God take care for oxen?

Rom 10:5
(5) For Moses describeth the righteousness which is of the law, That the man which doeth those things shall live by them.

Act 28:23
(23) And when they had appointed him a day, there came many to him into his lodging; to whom he expounded and testified the kingdom of God, persuading them concerning Jesus, both out of the law of Moses, and out of the prophets, from morning till evening.

Act 15:21
(21) For Moses of old time hath in every city them that preach him, being read in the synagogues every sabbath day.

Joh 8:5
(5) Now Moses in the law commanded us, that such should be stoned: but what sayest thou?

Joh 5:46-47
(46) For had ye believed Moses, ye would have believed me: for he wrote of me.
(47) But if ye believe not his writings, how shall ye believe my words?

Joh 1:45
(45) Philip findeth Nathanael, and saith unto him, We have found him, of whom Moses in the law, and the prophets, did write, Jesus of Nazareth, the son of Joseph.

Luk 24:27
(27) And beginning at Moses and all the prophets, he expounded unto them in all the scriptures the things concerning himself.

Luk 20:28
(28) Saying, Master, Moses wrote unto us, If any man's brother die, having a wife, and he die without children, that his brother should take his wife, and raise up seed unto his brother.

Mar 12:26
(26) And as touching the dead, that they rise: have ye not read in the book of Moses, how in the bush God spake unto him, saying, I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob?

Ravi Zacharias' ministry deals with this issue although he goes one step beyond and this deals with the existence of God. I suggest you go online and listen to his talks.

Here is a favorite quote of his:

"Is it possible that somewhere in the deepest recesses of the human heart, we are really not battling intellectual ideas as much we fighting for the right for our own sexual proclivities and our passionate indulgences?” Ravi Zacharias

I think he is right. Don't you, John?

Although there are some who believe that some of the early histories and family records in the first few chapters might have been written by Moses from other writings, i.e., he might have compiles some records given him from Adam and etc.. I don't believe there would be much real evidence to support this but it is definitely possibility.

My pastor recently preached on a three word answer to your questiom:

"Because it works"

It's true. It really does.

DEADn wrote:
How do you prove the Bible to be true to an Atheist who believes it has been corrupted?
You can't just say the Bible is true because it is. It has to be true for a reason.

Unless God opens the eyes of the blind, they will not see. Knowing this helps me tremendously in speaking to people because the pressure is on God, not me! All I do is share my testimony with them!

God bless,
Lisa

by TMK on 2014/5/14 22:43:40

My pastor recently preached on a three word answer to your questiom:

"Because it works"

It's true. It really does.

Is that really an answer? Arm a teenager with that and they are not likely to stand in the face of pressure unless they know God is there.
In the world today a Christian has to have better answers.

Paul didn't say 'It works' did he?

This reminds me of a church I attended for a year. A small country church. I got bored with it and decided to run the sound board for a little while. I wrote how many times the pastor says 3 key word phrases...out of habit, not of the Spirit. 149 times in 45 minutes.

The church was dead spiritually yet elders told me he preached the Word of God. Yet, nothing was really happening in that church. It was a desert in that building.
It didn't work in the building.....probably because the lack of prayer and separation..my guess.

Well duh--- obviously his sermon was more than three words. That was one point of an entire sermon. Bottom line is if you follow the Word and obey Jesus then you will have an abundant life. Those are Jesus's words, not mine or my pastor's.

And what in the world gives you the right to call him ignorant? Didn't Jesus issue a specific warning about that?

You aren't going to prove to anyone that the Bible is reliable just like you can't prove that God even exists. You can explain WHY it can be trusted but you can't force people to trust it.

And heck even people who trust it don't follow it.

by TMK on 2014/5/15 10:01:07

Well duh--- obviously his sermon was more than three words. That was one point of an entire sermon. Bottom line is if you follow the Word and obey Jesus then you will have an abundant life. Those are Jesus's words, not mine or my pastor's.

And what in the world gives you the right to call him ignorant? Didn't Jesus issue a specific warning about that?

You aren't going to prove to anyone that the Bible is reliable just like you can't prove that God even exists. You can explain WHY it can be trusted but you can't force people to trust it.

And heck even people who trust it don't follow it.

'Because it works' doesn't prove that something is true does it?

A Muslim can say the same of Islam. How do you prove He is wrong? Especially when he says the bible is corrupted.
How do you prove New World Translation is wrong especially if a JW won't accept a regular bible?

We don't examine the history of the bible in order to defend it? Some will not listen to you unless you can prove certain things.

Some will not listen to you unless you can prove certain things.

Although I can understand your frustration at the inability to provide a quick 'proof' answer to any inquisitor, it should be remembered that we are not obliged to prove the Bible is true by means of mans logic and scientific niceties, but only to preach the Gospel.

The Western world has become so heathen now that to even suggest there is such a thing as 'the Word of God' sounds obnoxious and offensive to unbelievers.

However as it is the living Word, if we quote it to unbelievers and the Holy Spirit quickens it in their heart then the proof will come not from us, but from God.

David

Sure-- you can do all sorts of things to show that the bible we have today is a reliable copy of the originals. For example there is far more manuscript evidence for the bible than for Plato's writings. But people who say the Bible is unreliable would not say that Plato's "Republic" is unreliable. Double standard.

People who are biased against the Bible don't WANT to be persuaded otherwise. They are frightened of the implications of being persuaded.

You don't see the Apostles arguing anyone into the Kingdom. They just laid out the facts and let the HS do the rest. And like Andrew said earlier they looked like fools doing so. Paul was laughed off of Mars Hill when he mentioned the resurrection.

Apologetics has it's place I suppose but arguing only goes so far.

Josh McDowell set out to prove that was not true, and ended up writing a detailed book Evidence That Demands A Verdict ... and several more "Evidence books".

http://www.dove.org/review/9117-undaunted-the-early-life-of-josh-mcdowell/

Since then he has gone all over the place showing the undeniable evidences of God's Word.

Here is one such video but there are many many more:

http://youtu.be/WfCWFix43E0

Brother John,

What is the motivation behind the question. The reason why I ask is because I do not give the same answer to a believer as I would an unbeliever.

In what situation do I find myself?

by havok20x on 2014/5/15 12:03:31

Brother John,

What is the motivation behind the question. The reason why I ask is because I do not give the same answer to a believer as I would an unbeliever.

In what situation do I find myself?

When a crowd says the bible was written by man and rewritten as it was passed down through the ages and no doubt it was corrupted. Muslims want to cling to this as well.
SOme point to the Catholic church in some of these issues and why would a Protestant use the bible since Catholic changed it.

Some people think the whole thing is made up and others say there isn't much historical evidence to support things in the bible from a secular pov.

If you talk to a believer and they tell you the bible is a myth, or it is written by men, or it has been corrupted. Things along this line what is your response to it?

When dealing with the lost, we need to understand that "the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; nor can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.”-2Cor.2:14, and that "the carnal mind is enmity against God; for it is not subject to the law of God, nor indeed can be.”-Rom. 8:7

We need to trust in the efficacy of the gospel because it is the power of God unto salvation-Rom.1:16. That is what God uses to open darkened eyes and convert souls. "For since, in the wisdom of God, the world through wisdom did not know God, it pleased God through the foolishness of the message preached to save those who believe.”-1Cor.1:21

Spurgeon said, "Defend the Bible? I would as soon defend a lion! Unchain it and it will defend itself.”

God’s Word is alive and powerful-Hebrews 4:12! We need to trust God to do His work through His Word as we simply obey Him in preaching it. Isaiah 55:11 declares, "So shall My word be that goes forth from My mouth; It shall not return to Me void, But it shall accomplish what I please, And it shall prosper in the thing for which I sent it.”

There is a place for reasoning with people concerning the truth of God and His Word. But we must stay within the limits of Scriptural examples and principles concerning that.

In Scripture God has declared that man is without excuse if he denies God’s existence because God’s existence is clearly evident through nature-Rom.1:20; Psalm 19:1. There is no need for us to try to go to great lengths in trying to prove God’s existence. We can simply tell them they have no excuse because they know intuitively that God exists, by looking around at the creation.

God has also given each person a conscience to know right from wrong, which is also a powerful and clear evidence of His existence and truth. Jesus and Paul reasoned with the lost by using God’s Law to deal with the conscience and convict of sin, righteousness and judgment-Mark 10:17-27; Acts 24:25.

God may at times use fulfilled prophecies to aid in destroying certain prejudices against the truth of who Jesus is. Paul and others reasoned with the Jews from the Scriptures concerning Jesus being the long-awaited Messiah. So I’d say fulfilled prophecy is a valid tool to use in reasoning about who Jesus is.

I usually try to keep it real simple when dealing with the lost. To sum up and recap, there are a few basic things every lost person knows intuitively.

1, they know God exists by looking around at the creation.
2, they know right from wrong through their conscience.
3, they know evil should be punished by their sense of justice.

We can reason with them concerning their accountability to God and the fact that one day they will stand before Him to give account of their lives.

The enemy will use the lost to try to stump us and make us fearful but we must stand firmly and boldly on God’s Word.

This short vid promotes a resource which I believe can be helpful:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MM1AWO92Crc

Brother John,

I do not want you to think that I am avoiding your question by the answers that I give. I will tell you first what I believe in regards to unbelievers and defending scripture, what my response will be to them, and then I will tell you what my response will be to a professing believer.

First, our beliefs about Scripture is a doctrinal issue. It is a doctrinal issue because the Scripture says a lot about itself in regards to its usefulness, purpose, inspiration, trustworthiness, etc. When I encounter unbelievers, I make it a point to preach nothing but Christ and him crucified. There is a reason for this:

The primary reason is because the enemy is cunning. When a man is preaching the Gospel, the enemy knows that he cannot simply make a beautiful girl walk by and totally distract him from preaching the gospel. He knows that he cannot simply react in violence against the preacher because it will only make him respond with joy and more preaching of the gospel. I am probably going to be in trouble for saying this, but the primary method, I believe, that satan uses against us to prevent us from preaching the gospel accurately is doctrine. Christians should love doctrine. They should live doctrine. They should also proclaim the Gospel (which has some wonderful theological points), and it is the preaching of the gospel that allows men to hear the Word, be drawn by the Father, and believing, become saved. However, not all our doctrines as believers are the gospel--this includes the trustworthiness of the scriptures. Satan will distract us from preaching the Gospel by making us defend the Scriptures. If someone said to you, "prove to me that Jesus is the son of God!" or "Prove to me that Jesus turned water into wine!" Now we move from preaching the Gospel to teaching something else, which can be very dangerous. I make it a point not to debate with lost people about these things because I have never successfully proclaimed the Gospel when I try to also be an apologist. When I was lost, all my objections and questions and wrong-headed ideas melted away (or at least started to) when I heard the Gospel, believed it, and came to know the Lord. They just started dropping off. Really, the world would consider me a fool, but I don't care anymore about what they think.

In regards to beleivers:

Apologetics is very useful. But we must remember, the burden is not on us to prove that what we say is true, but for them to prove that what we say is false. We should take another believers objections and answer them prayerfully, biblically, and with good, solid research. We should also make a clear distinction between minor issues and major issues. Not every issue that a believer objects to is a potentially faith-breaking, soul-crushing issue. So we need to make sure that the brother is not treating something like a comma-placement or a mispelling like something that would totally invalidates the atonement of Jesus Christ. You see what I mean?

Also, I recommend doing research together, praying, reading, researching, etc. Because, when you and the brother get through this, together, you will be much closer to the Lord and to one another, which is one of the goals of the church in the first place and is definitely what part of discipleship is all about.

Also, this is a wonderful website:

http://www.greatsite.com/timeline-english-bible-history/

It is a fantastic, thoroughly research, resource in regards to the Scriptures. I think you will find it very useful.

I know I didn't answer your question directly, but there is no way I could answer the entirety of objectives on this site. We just take them one step at a time.

A final word: If a professing believer rejects or begins to reject the faith, we need to follow matthew 18 and preach the gospel to them. The gospel is a powerful reminder of why we believe what we believe. And if the person is actually an unbeliever, masking as a Christian, then it will give them an opportunity to be saved. But if the Lord lays it plainly on you that the person you are dealing with is lost, you need to cease trying to prove the validity of the Scriptures and start preaching the Gospel, because if they are lost, they have no spiritual foundation for which to confirm that anything you say is true.

Oracio!

I love it when the Lord has 2 people saying the same things, without one or the other knowing.

By the mouth of 2 or 3 witnesses... :)

Can the bible be trusted?
by DEADn on 2014/5/14 14:29:27

________

Greetings John

My response to this question would simply be this, yes the Bible can be trusted. My reason for why I know that it can be trusted is because of CHRIST JESUS who lives in me. When I read the Bible JESUS who lives in me testifies to my spirit that what I am reading is true and can be trusted. JESUS is the WORD...
___________________________

How can we prove the Bible can be trusted?

John

______________________

Where in the Bible does it tell us to "prove the Bible" we are told to share JESUS with the lost but we are never told we have to "prove" anything. Share JESUS with those who are lost don't debate them. If they receive what you have to say you have a brother in CHRIST if they reject it move on and shake the dust off your feet.

God bless
maryjane

Oracio!

I love it when the Lord has 2 people saying the same things, without one or the other knowing.

By the mouth of 2 or 3 witnesses... :)

DEADn, in dealing with Muslims we have an easier starting point than with atheists because Muslims believe in a holy creator, in heaven and hell and a judgment day. God's Law is a powerful instrument in reasoning with them. They believe in the 10 Commandments and think they can keep them. We can reason with them by taking them through the Law and helping them see they haven't kept God's Law. We can reason with them that God requires absolute perfection in thought, word and deed. Reason with them about heart-adultery and heart-murder and other sins. Ask them how they are going to answer for their sins on Judgment Day. Tell them that no amount of prayer or fasting can wash away their sins. Once they see their guilt the good news of the cross of Christ will start to make sense to them. The same goes for any person of any other religion.

If you talk to a believer and they tell you the bible is a myth, or it is written by men, or it has been corrupted. Things along this line what is your response to it?

There is a difference between someone who is bold in their unbelief and a believer who is sincerely struggling in their faith. If it seems they are sincerely struggling I would do as havoc has suggested and be patient with them.

The Bible contains the only message on earth that can cleans the Soul.

The Bible contains the only message on earth that can cleans the Soul.

And if someone thinks the statement is nonsense how do you back that up? They say the bible was written by man and/or it is just myths or fables in response to your quote. How do you respond?

I am not against anyone on this forum. I am simply trying to stretch our witness and asking for responses in how to do deal with this when confronted with people who don't believe the bible, believe it is simply written by men, believe it has been rewritten believe that there isn't much secular history to back up some of the claims and so on.

Is 'Because the bible say so' really an answer? Why does the bible say so?

I don't endorse the "Documentary Hypothesis" that asserts that there were four authors to the Pentateuch (Genesis to Deuteronomy). But, critics have been using it for at least a couple of centuries. For starters, it tries to identify one author who named God as "Yahweh" and another who named God as "Elohim".

It is good to be aware of what unbelievers are thinking and to "be ready with an answer" (1 Peter 3:15).

by DEADn on 2014/5/16 4:48:21

I am not against anyone on this forum. I am simply trying to stretch our witness and asking for responses in how to do deal with this when confronted with people who don't believe the bible, believe it is simply written by men, believe it has been rewritten believe that there isn't much secular history to back up some of the claims and so on.

Is 'Because the bible say so' really an answer? Why does the bible say so?
_________________________

Again I don't understand the need to argue or prove anything to anyone. Sharing JESUS is one thing but Jesus didn't chase people down and force them to agree with HIM. The disciples didn't either. We are called to share Jesus with those who are lost not get caught up in debates with them. No amount of "talking at" someone is ever ever ever going to change their heart or mind in this matter...only an encounter with JESUS will do that. The Bible is given to us by GOD. We are called to live by faith, by faith I know the BIBLE is trustworthy because of who CHRIST is in me. HE confirms to me all that HIS word says is true. You can and should share with those who are blind and deaf but in the end just know they will never see unless the come to JESUS and they have to want to do so.

Also "because the Bible says so" is an answer when you consider who it is that is giving the answer! GOD is creator of all so HE owes no one an explanation of any kind. The fact that HE does give us any explanation is of HIS own choosing and according to HIS own good pleasure. Its worldly thinking that demands an explanation from GOD. When I am teaching my two year to listen and obey me no matter what, I do not need to explain every single decision I make. Sometimes my child needs to just hear my voice and know that what I say is so and they need to respond accordingly. But then that relationship that I have with my child, and GOD has with me as HIS child is one of trust and faith knowing HE wants and desires good things for me. I think I shared with you before about Thomas. He was all about needing proof, but JESUS said its all about faith...I guess my question is How can you explain faith to an unbeliever? How can you explain that certainty you have deep down inside you because JESUS LORD of all is living there and confirms it to you. Most who do not know HIM will walk away believing you mad but then JESUS told us to expect that.

It is good to know to be able to defend your faith but when those you are speaking to cast aside everything you say and demand you prove perhaps it is time to shake the dust from your feet and move on. Otherwise are these discussion fruitless and become nothing more then casting pearl before swine?

God bless
maryjane

RE: ///And if someone thinks the statement is nonsense how do you back that up? They say the bible was written by man and/or it is just myths or fables in response to your quote. How do you respond?///

As everyone has said the carnal,natural mind is at enmity with God.
But we also must relieze that all men (hold) the truth, all men have a conscience.
The conscience is the inward witness.

It is interesting that so many (most that I have known) whom profess to be athiest do not live there world view.

They are still subject to there conscience, and as the bible says they appease it by accusing and comparing themselves to others.

All men are dead, that is they have guilt in there conscience. The Bible tells us this but so does observation.

All religion is attempts at removing this guilt. but they all fall short. The entire world including the athiest can not find contentment because of this plague of guilt this death as the Bible calls it.

This guilt, this death, this inability to find contentment is manifested clearly in observation. It is why men burn there brains out with drugs, it is why men pickle there liver with drink, it is why men will listen to rock music so loud as to cause them to go deaf, it is why men over eat it, It is why men are religious.

The Bible is the only book on earth that contains a message to clean the heart from guilt.

All other religions and means can at best only suppress guilt.

Agree here, we dont prove anything, we just initiate a conversation. It is not our job to win a discussion or prove anything. Truth comes by revelation, not by human logic, secular finding of truth is not what the Holy Spirt does. It's Gods job to send revelation, not ours.

It's a faithless position to make us responsible to prove the Bible can be trusted. You put yourself in charge to do so, then the Holy Spirit is a 'thing' you are in charge over. That means you are alone, on your own, and do not recognize or have ever seen the work of the Holy Spirit in that regard. It's a theoretical approach, and always stays that way, until you give up your own ways, and give authority to God to work through you by His Spirit.

1 Corinthians 2:9  But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him. But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God.

1 Peter 3:15 But sanctify the Lord God in your hearts: and be ready always to give an answer to every man that asketh you a reason of the hope that is in you with meekness and fear:

This includes being ready to give an answer to those who wonder if the Bible can be trusted!

Acts 1:3 To whom also he shewed himself alive after his passion by many infallible proofs, being seen of them forty days, and speaking of the things pertaining to the kingdom of God:

When Paul wrote to the Corinthians, he emphatically reminded them that he had not come with the lofty words of man, but in power and DEMONSTRATION of the Spirit of God. He knew their faith would need to rest on something very substantial, or it would be easily toppled by someone more crafty than he.

As he also mentions in Ephesians 1, believers are sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise, enabling them to hear God and know truth. Since the Bible fears no challenge, one could expect believers to trust it, and unbelievers would be doubters by nature.

When I was baptized in the Spirit, I heard a clear word in my spirit that I could trust His Word. I was a bit miffed hearing that since as a believer already, I accepted the bible as the Word of God. But this word kept coming to my spirit, and it really did transform both my trust in the Word, and my love for it.

So when scholars point out that parts of the book of Job are just contrived to fill in where there are no reliable texts to work from, it doesn't shake my faith. And when the numbers people show how the whole bible, new and old testaments, have intricate patterns of coefficient numbers that form symmetrical designs, I am intrigued but not moved. (The patterns occur only in the 66 book canon, other writings thus analyzed produce unremarkable randomness.)

But sinners with their agendas will never bow to the authority of the bible until they bow to the authority of Jesus Christ. Evangelism will always be the hard work of convincing sinners to turn from their evil ways, and the presentation of our own lives as models of Christ.

The Word will lead us, and the Word will confirm to the repentant its true authority.

Quote: "This includes being ready to give an answer to those who wonder if the Bible can be trusted!"

Where does it say that? Peter is talking about having a testimony and being able to relay what Jesus taught and did, not "proving" that the scriptures could be trusted.

I have to agree with TMK, when strangers try to convince me of anything, my first thought is that they want to use me for their own purposes.

But when I get the privilege of watching someone demonstrate Christ, I am much more attuned to what they might want to tell me.

"And they overcame by the blood of the Lamb and the word of their testimony."

TMK,

"Where does it say that?"

Just look up the definition of the word "every".

So in the end, the Bible doesn't need to be proven but just accepted?

The OT provides alot of historical things in it. What if the historicity of it could not be found in manuscripts?
Just like the Book of Mormon, how do we know the Book of Mormon is not true?

quote: "Just look up the definition of the word "every"."

Indeed. We should be able to give our testimony (i.e., be the witness that Jesus commanded) and be able to explain what Jesus taught and did to every person we come in contact with, as is necessary.

There is power in the gospel-- not apologetics.

If an unbeliever is questioning the veracity of the scriptures, it would be helpful obviously to be able to explain why the scriptures can be trusted. But even the best apologist will not gain a convert unless he is moved by the power of the gospel.

I know this from personal experience. I am not great at witnessing because I get too technical and get drawn into rabbit trail discussions. My wife is awesome at witnessing because she keeps it simple and doesn't get drawn into technical sidetrack issues. In other words, she trusts the power of the simple gospel more than I do. I feel that I need to "help it along." Bad move.

As AW Tozer says, we don't need to go around making apologies for God or what the Bible says. We just need to state it plainly and let the HS work.

The gospel of the Kingdom of God is going out to all the kingdoms of this world. As evangelists / apologists, it is good to have compassion and know something about the Jews, Greeks, Africans, Asians, Europeans, Americans, islanders, etc. among whom we are seeking to make disciples of Jesus Christ.

Yes, the gospel shall triumph.

Just a note on that Book of Mormon thing, and I admit I have never read it, but the Bible is a whole different phenomenon in the progression of human knowledge and experience. 66 books written over several centuries, different authors, different styles, poetry, prose, music, history- all woven together to complement the other parts, a work inconceivable for one man to create. Words of God written by men inspired by a Holy Spirit not even really identified until spoken by the Savior Himself.

A New Testament that declares the heart and purposes of God with splendor not seen in most of the Old Testament writings, yet in reverence for those teachings, full honor for the men and ministries of the ancient times, comportment with the commands of God to men hungry to please Him.

Book of Mormon? One guy, stuff made up, no corroborating witnesses. Its only comparison to the Bible is paper quality. Credibility fail.

It grieves me to see the eye telling the hand: "I have no need of thee”. Reading this thread, one could get the idea that Christian Apologetics is a waste of time and ministry. Brethren please repent of this arrogance if that is your thought. Just because YOU are not expert at demonstrating to an unbeliever that these ancient manuscripts can be trusted does not mean that it is not a God inspired ministry that is very useful in the kingdom of God. I deeply appreciate those ministries that have spent hours and days joyously digging up and discovering the many infallible proofs that God has left on planet earth available for anyone who might have a doubt.

When a person’s brain has been ground through the mill of modern education, it is refreshing to read discoveries by brethren that God has used to demonstrate that there is SO MUCH evidence that demands a verdict that you would be a fool NOT to believe that those ancient manuscripts are the very words of the Omniscient One.

When the rich man writhing in pain begged Abraham to send Lazarus (raised from the dead) to warn his 5 brethren, Abraham explained to him that "If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.”. While this is absolutely the case for the majority of people on the earth, there are some who need a little more evidence than others. Jesus could have cast Thomas off forever as an unbeliever. Did he? Of course not! He made a special visit to him proving with evidence that which he doubted.

Much of the New Testament itself is apologetics. The early believers had the Old Testament which (for them) was sufficient (Moses and the Prophets), yet they documented the proofs so that the early believers could KNOW the certainty…

Luk 1:1 Forasmuch as many have taken in hand to set forth in order a declaration of those things which are most surely believed among us,
Luk 1:2 Even as they delivered them unto us, which from the beginning were eyewitnesses, and ministers of the word;
Luk 1:3 It seemed good to me also, having had perfect understanding of all things from the very first, to write unto thee in order, most excellent Theophilus,
Luk 1:4 That thou mightest know the certainty of those things, wherein thou hast been instructed.

After the lapse of 2,000 years it is such a blessing that God has raised up men who can show so much evidence of the validity of those ancient manuscripts. Perhaps such ministries as http://www.josh.org/ or https://answersingenesis.org/ have no meaning or usefulness to you, but for many Thomases out there, they are very helpful and for some, a tool that God uses in drawing men to Him.

If you ever get a burden for a soul who lives in a world of such doubts about the validity of the scriptures you will appreciate such ministries and what they provide.

Lordoitagain,

I tend to agree with you here. I also agree with those who say that apologetics in itself cannot bring a man to salvation. Like a lot of these discussions we fall too quickly into an over emphasis on one position and denigrate the other we see as opposite.

Obviously only the Holy Spirit can bring the conviction and enlightenment needed for new birth and we (read me) can too easily fall into the thinking that we can debate someone into the truth instead of just preaching the gospel. Having said that there is still great benefit in presenting the 'proofs' of the reliability of the bible for both believer and unbeliever.

We are instructed: "casting down arguments and every high thing that exalts itself against the knowledge of God, bringing every thought into captivity to the obedience of Christ," (2 Cor 5).

Someone could be under the conviction of the Holy Spirit to repent and be saved, but their mind could still be troubled by wrong philosophy from the world and apologetics in this instance will help them to see that they should trust the conviction and not the world's philosophy.

Apologetics on it's own may change a man's thinking, but will never bring them to salvation, but working together with the gospel in the power of the Spirit they could produce great fruit.

It's a total shame that it's come down to this: trying to convince someone the Bible is true. Some people wanna be chased down and force-fed! You can't carry every to the cross.

We.Do.Not.Have.To.Convince.Anyone.the.Bible.is.True.

God bless,
Lisa

Brothers and sisters,

Apologetics has its place. I do not agree that it is useless. It is especially good for believers. But I am telling you this: a lot of men and women have replaced the preaching of the Gospel with proving that the Gospel that they forgot to preach is true. I am not saying a man cannot come to Christ because someone proved something, I am just saying that when we present the Gospel, it is not the pattern of the NT to present apologetics as the focal point of our witness. Paul, indeed, said many things to validate that what he was saying was true, and it wasn't always quoting scripture; however, Paul ALWAYS preached the Gospel and the make-or-break-point was not the rejection of any of his arguements, but the rejection of the Gospel.

If an unbeliever says to me, "how do you know what you are saying is true." I say, "Because I know God." and invariably they will say, "Show me God." And you know what I do, I point in just any direction and say, "You know God is real. All creation proves it. You are without excuse" or some variant of that. And I go right back to preaching the Gospel.

Salvation occurs because someone believes the Gospel. Even if you prove the validity of the bible, it does not mean the man will repent and believe. You haven't won the battle until the Gospel is present.

Whoa there havok--

What you are saying can't be right because it appears we agree!!

:)

I agree with havok. Evidential apologetics may be helpful in certain situations but it needs to be way behind the preaching of the gospel as far as priority, and it is not absolutely necessary for us to study such types of proofs.

I understand that God has seen fit to use such "evidences" to reach men like Josh McDowell and Lee Strobel. However, on the other hand many who are presented with such arguments only get more hardened, I know from experience in my own life and in trying to share such evidences with the lost.

When I was a newer Christian I was reading "Evidence that Demands a Verdict" during a time when I was doubting the truths of God and the Bible. That book only made things worse for me as the enemy kept counter-attacking such evidences with more arguments against God's truth. I had to come to the place where I simply cried out to God for strength in my faith and He answered that prayer without the use of those types of evidences.

Again, I have seen first-hand many atheists get more hardened when presented with such "proofs". If you play that game with them you may find yourself right in the enemy's trap and be confounded and discouraged. I believe the Lord showed me that I need to focus on the pure, undiluted preaching of the gospel and trust Him to do His work through the foolishness of the message preached.

Like havoc said, for too long many Christians have focused on and trusted in evidential apologetics and have not trusted in the power of the gospel itself. In other words, many have set out to try to convince men's darkened minds with intellectual arguments instead of reaching for the heart and conscience with God's powerful living Word.

We do not see anywhere in Scripture that any prophets or apostles set out to prove the inspiration or inerrancy of the Old Testament Scriptures. They did not reason along those lines. They reasoned from God's Word and according to God's Word.

" If you play that game with them you may find yourself right in the enemy's trap and be confounded and discouraged."

I watched this happen to a brother of ours. He would debate and debate and debate and offer proof after proof after proof that what he said was valid and over the course of years, the man he was witnessing to--a coworker--would continue to counter what he said. Eventually, the brother started throwing those same objections he was hearing right back to me. A very dark cloud had settled over his heart and mind. It was terrifying to watch that darkness unfold in his life. It took a LOT of prayer and working with that brother, but all the years of damage that was done to him (really to himself, since he believed that he was responsible for answering every objection, which is not possible), is finally shedding off, because he is putting his eyes back on Jesus. Now he is one of the biggest advocates of strictly Gospel-preaching that I know.

******************************************************

One of the most tremendous moments in my Christian life has very much to do with what we are discussing. I was a very young Christian and didn't know anything (not that I know much more now! lol). I wasn't familiar with the Scriptures at all (because I was a new convert) and there was a man who started telling me about how there was a 3rd testament and this and that and how Christianity was only the 2nd stage of a 3 stage religion and he offered scriptural evidence, etc, etc, etc. It was absolutely overwhelming. I couldn't counter him at all. He just knew so much more of the Bible than I did and knew so much more about what Christianity was all about than I did. I was absolutely helpless. Finally, after hours of talking with this guy, I was totally drained. I really just felt dead inside. I went to a bedroom in my house and literally just fell to the ground weeping. I held up a Bible in my hand and said to the Lord, "If this isn't all that there is, just let this book burn up in my hands." Then through some supernatural means (I didn't hear a voice, but I just knew what I was supposed to do), I flipped open my bible and it landed in Galatians chapter 1. And my eyes immediately fell to these verses,

"I marvel that you are turning away so soon from Him who called you in the grace of Christ, to a different gospel, which is not another; but there are some who trouble you and want to pervert the gospel of Christ. But even if we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel to you than what we have preached to you, let him be accursed. As we have said before, so now I say again, if anyone preaches any other gospel to you than what you have received, let him be accursed."

It was amazing. I cried even more at that point...lol.

Now I am not advocating just flipping bibles open and stuff like that. But I didn't even know there was such a book as Galatians at that time. However, from that day on, the Lord made my heart absolutely stalwart against anything that was not the Gospel. That is why I am so careful--not that I am perfect--to make sure that when I teach or when I witness that I do not advocate something other than the Gospel of our glorious Savior Jesus Christ.

In many of Paris Reidhead's sermons he mentions his desire for a one year moratorium on any preaching of salvation through Christ.

He of course elaborates on the fact that so many are presented with a solution... before they have any clue that they have a problem.

Perhaps this discussion falls to the same fate, wrangling with haughty unbelievers insisting they believe a book that is of no interest to the pursuits of their lives, a book that they see as only a distraction or hindrance, another entrant in a ho-hum library of self-help books stretching to the horizon.

Since it is the Holy Spirit Who convicts of sin, advocates for truth, and leads sinners to repentance, perhaps we will serve best with exemplary lives, and a refrain from this particular debate. But as sinners hear the call of our testimony and we see a hunger for truth in this world of lies, the Word which we have inside will be useful to the Spirit on our very lips.

The Word was not designed to be defended like an institution, but wielded as a sword, cutting through the barriers that keep men's hearts from the voice of a both terrifying and loving God.

"So, you proud man, confident in your devices, enslaved to your pleasures, counting down the minutes of your life to a future you cannot know, how long before you utter the same cry as your fathers before you- 'Who are you, that you are greater than I, and what am I to You?'"

Welcome to desperation, to seeing what cannot be seen, understanding what cannot be understood.

There is a book. And if you will fall on your face in repentance, all your questions will be answered in the Person in the book.

His name is Jesus.

In this regard Ray Comfort gives an analogy which I think is helpful. He compares evidential apologetics to fish bait, and the gospel message to the hook that actually catches the fish. Apologetics can be a good conversation starter, like a springboard or Segway. The same goes for many other topics, such as the latest news, special events, etc. We can use these things as bait leading to the main thing, the gospel. We do not want to dwell on the bait for too long as it will be like teasing and not going for the catch.

Very true Oracio. It takes skill to make that turn.

I dont have it so i need to learn to just stick to the gospel. Otherwise I get off on tangents and it is hard for me to circle back.

I am friends with Ken Ham on Facebook. This morning, this is what he posted:

"I love to receive testimonies like this one sent to us recently--this is what this ministry of AiG is all about (and this testimony is a reminder that the positive effects of the debate continue):

"Dear Ken, thank you soooo much for your debate with Bill Nye. My son who was raised a Christian and began going to college... need I say more... turned away...But, after watching your debate ... he's beginning to turn back to the Lord and his faith. Would you say a "quick" prayer for his salvation? thank you... You probably brought a lot of people back to the Lord and maybe even won over some die-hard atheists! Anyway, you have made a mom very grateful to you!!! The Lord used you mightily in this debate."
"

Thank God for ministries that God has raised up to preach the gospel and also demonstrate the kinds of evidences that many young people need in this generation because of the severe indoctrination done by our school systems.

We could go back and forth on this issue for years.

Let's not get caught up in what experiences we are having and indoctrinate them. Let's bring every thought, every experience, every action into submission to Christ and His Scriptures.

The thought came to mind, we don't see any of the great men of God from the past trying to prove the inspiration and inerrancy of the Scriptures. I think of Whitefield, Wesley, Spurgeon, Finney, Edwards, etc. They lived during a time when there was much skepticism about God's Word even as today. Yet they simply preached the Word with Holy Ghost unction and trusted God with the results and what happened? God blessed their obedience and faithfulness. They preached and reasoned from the Scriptures, according to the types of reasoning found therein.

Here’s another one for us to consider. Let’s suppose we tell others that the currently available ancient manuscripts prove the trustworthiness of the Scriptures. Since those manuscripts are written in Greek and Hebrew, wouldn’t it follow that we would have to know those languages for us to really prove the validity of that kind of argument? In other words, what if they tell you, "How do you know that those manuscripts prove the trustworthiness of the Bible? After all, you personally don’t know Greek or Hebrew so you’re going by hearsay, aren’t you?" You can tell them you’ve read Josh McDowell’s book but what if they say, "How do you know McDowell is not making some things up?” We’d have to know Greek and Hebrew ourselves in order to confidently argue along those lines, wouldn’t we.

My point is that we don’t need to know Greek or Hebrew to be able to trust the Word of God. God has graciously allowed us to receive it in our own language and it can hold its own weight.

This thread has gotten out of hand and is like a tree with many branches. As you climb up they spread in different directions. You decided which direction to go to and eventually it just wears you down and tires you out so you come back down and go somewhere that is much simpler.

No wonder there is such division in Protestant Christianity and the Catholics brag about their Universal unity. Ironic. Can Protestants really say this?

Well, DeadN. What is the "simpler" way?

To make sense out of the opinions of this thread one has to categorize them. Once that happens you can begin to understand the thinking of those who posted and what is important to them when it comes to the bible in reliable. I speak in reference to how many people find historical meanings important, prophecy important or that it is God's Word and that is all we need to know.

How can you use each reference to show the Bible can be reliable? Is it simply telling someone It is God's Word? How do you back that up? Muslims say that about the Koran.

Is Prophecy the way to tell? Can history tell you?

Personally, I think it begins in history then to prophecy.

i.e. How do we know the Book of Mormon is false? The 'Prophet' had a supernatural experience like many in the OT did. Must be the Word of God? Yet if you read what the Book of Mormon says about America's history you know it is false because those towns it speaks of never existed. So, we know the spirit behind it is false as well. Never mind what Mormonism teaches about who Jesus is.

Shouldn't the same be done with the Bible? If we cannot understand the history of the Bible and reference the OT how can we tell people it is the Word of God without understanding why it is the Word of God? From towns that existed to understanding the law and why it was given v. the culture around the Jews and so forth.

Not everyone needs to know this but what if you did know this background. You could explain why the OT is a foreshadow of the NT and explain how God gave us revelation of Jesus to come. There is foundational truth there.
I think the mere phrase 'Because it is God's Word shows shallow thinking and it really doesn't mean anything until one can show it to be God's Word.

John

Oracio: "Yet they simply preached the Word with Holy Ghost unction and trusted God with the results and what happened? God blessed their obedience and faithfulness. They preached and reasoned from the Scriptures, according to the types of reasoning found therein."

John 6:63  It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.

Reasoning with our own minds and words will win many like minded friends, and the spiritual outcome is still nil, because the minds of some are satisfied, and the spirit is not only starving, but maybe not even alive, and will stay that way with that kind of 'unsuitable nourishment'.

"`the flesh profiteth nothing " - the whatever proof in your mind does not make your spirit alive, only His Spirit can do that, by HIS words. Not the words of the textual critics of the 1990's.

"How do you know that those manuscripts prove the trustworthiness of the Bible? After all, you personally don’t know Greek or Hebrew so you’re going by hearsay, aren’t you?"

Well of course, its "scientifically verified 1900's hearsay" and results in the argument and a supporting translation attempt according to current meanings of words of OUR culture regarding what the Greek and Hebrew seems to imply (while never mentioning what underlying documents actually imply that - as if there was only one text stream). Ever heard of the "Alexandrian Cult" ?

Here again the mind (flesh) wants to rule the Spirit, and faith was lost in the process. Thats 'the standard' these days, so it's almost impossible to complain about it, we need someone who is qualified enough to understand the objection in the first place, so we either accept it as is, or we walk away and be quiet.

Yet in the end doesn't it matter about the history of the bible and how it came together? To just accept it as God's Word is ignorant. Proving the Bible is God's Word gives us the basis to stand on that when attacks come.

Hi DEADn,

Do we believe the Bible because of Jesus, or do we believe in Jesus because of the Bible?