Jesus Culture and other Music

Okay,

I was discussing the band Jesus Culture in another thread and I decided to make this one because it was a little off-center in regards to what the original post was about.

Should we listen to music from a place we know is slap-full of heresy? What if that music starts showing up at my church? If I hear it on the Christian radio, should I call and say, "Hey! These guys are heretics!"

The radio station probably doesn't care. Most stations are not managed with any real careful biblical thought. Much less so the music of our day, although there are exceptions for sure. I am with you on Jesus Culture. Yet, then, Hillsong Church is not exactly historically orthodox evangelical either....it has a history with prosperity preaching. Joel Osteen was a big hit over there last year. But, Hillsong music is in nearly every church in America. For good or bad.

Listen to each song. Pray. Decide. Warn, if necessary. I can tell you that I do not sing some sings that our church uses because they are flatly incorrect biblically. They are harmlessly wrong, but they are also silly in my opinion.

Yeah,

I understand that, too.

I have been thinking about it for a while now, but it seems to me that "worship" or "song services" in churches are almost occultish--we sing lots of emotional songs and then say, "I can really feel the presence of God here."

I always wondered if I just start reading the book of Psalms on the days that I am asked to lead music, if it would have the same "effect."

I don't want to be experimenting with God, you know, but at the same time I want everything I do to be pleasing to Him.

But even David played music with his psalms.

Something about music does resonate with our spirit. I think music is important for that reason. It does play on our emotion but sometimes that is needed. I am not generally a crying man but when tears do fall it is due to the presence of the Holy Spirit during worship.

I really can't criticize Hillsong because so many of their worship songs are so good.

However I cannot sing "Healer" by them because the guy who wrote it did so under false pretenses and I can't get past that. But songs like "from the inside out" and "oceans" and "sovereign hands" are so good.

Don't get me wrong...lol. I am a musician. I play guitar, banjo, piano, uke, (etc). And I love to play and sing to the Lord. No doubt.

But sometimes I think we get so bogged down with the music and how emotional it is that we forget that there are words we are singing and that even if we sing a song, that if our lives don't match, then we are doing nothing more than singing.

Never heard of the band 'Jesus Culture'. What do they do or teach that is heresy?

I know of Jesus People USA in Chicago. Any relation?

No. Jesus Culture is a band out of Bethel Church in Redding, California. Here is the link to the post Brother Greg just posted:

https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=52447&forum=35

Hi havok20x,

This is the same exact question that I have been struggling with for the past several years. I have actually witnessed how Bethel's teachings begin to trojan horse their way into churches and peoples theology through their music. In So Cal, it is EXTREMELY prevalent, and their influence has silently been taking over the hearts and minds of the young people. I am also concerned to see that brother Francis Chan is getting more and more involved with them. He recently spoke at an event here in Los Angeles with Banning Liebscher (head of Jesus Culture) which has been adding further "legitimacy" to the movement. It really feels like an impossible battle and has been a tremendous source of discouragement in my own life at the moment as I have unfortunately received a lot of persecution for trying to point people to scripture (graciously and lovingly) and also have lost many friends along the way. Any thoughts/exhortations on how one should go about standing firm in the midst of these things?

Brother Greg,

Will Do. Thank you.

Tbsounde2: Hanging out here from time to time helps.

Infuse your own spirit and soul with God's Word, obediently, in love and prayer, and stand your ground.

I hate hearing that Chan may be more closely linking with them and will watch that closely as I can. He shies away from much online presence. Unless someone complains about him, and most of their complaints to date have been shallow and hollow, it seems you only hear from him when he is in a conference. I am slow to read too much into who he appears at a conference with unless he does it repeatedly, i.e., Passion. I think sometimes he shows up to challenge people he might not otherwise have opportunity to address. But, it bears watching anyway.

tbsounde2,

John 15. It is a wonderful reminder.

Apart from Him, we can do nothing.

Hi tbsounde2,
I used to 'lead worship' but have since stepped away from that stuff. Blessed be God for that...

There is a host of 'applesauce' songs that have one or two scriptural sounding lines surrounded by inedible hay.

These days, I just stick with the old music and hymns.

Music is a powerful force and exerts a tremendous influence in soulish believers that I would not attempt to point anyone to scripture about music unless I am specifically led of the Lord. But then, Its easy for me now because I no longer lead worship and am not part of a music group. For someone who is part of a group, I truly empathize.

The best thing might be to leave until the Lord leads you back in that direction to be a light to those seeking the light. Otherwise, I see nothing but hurt and grief in it.

May the Lord grant you wisdom. Amen.

its not just frances chan but brother yun ,,david pawson i noticed seem to be in some sort of partnership ,,it makes it hard to understand how are these men deserning that church

This issue with music in the church has be around for many years. It is a big problem how the whole 'music ministry' has become so dominant in churches. Don't get me wrong I love worshiping the LORD and some Godly music really helps that. However, there is no such thing in the NT outline for the church about 'music ministry' or 'worship leaders'.

Much of today's worship exerts far too a powerful a doctrinal influence on Christians through the words and many people get their theology from worship songs rather than the bible. Not to mention the soul stirring and control of the actual music. This exalts these so called 'worship leaders' to the place of teachers and manipulators. Worship should ideally arise from each member of the body and the musicians (if there are any) can just accompany and enhance the worship from a non prominent position.

You have to go back to the OT if you want to see worship leaders and musicians as a ministry. But we are not in the OT dispensation of temple worship, but in the body of Christ where each member has direct access to worship the LORD in Spirit and Truth and also minister one to another.

DEADn, here is a popular song by Jesus Culture (sung by Kim Walker). Seek them out on youtube and listen for YOURSELF.

Still Believe by Jesus Culture
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nydtcpOE6fQ

Your blood makes the deaf to hear right now
Your blood takes away the curse right now
Your blood heals every disease right now
Your blood sets the addict free right now

And I still believe You're the same yesterday, today and forever
And I still believe Your blood is sufficient for me

Your blood mends the broken heart right now
Your blood compels me to forgive right now
Your blood transforms my mind right now
Your blood brings the dead to life right now

And I still believe You're the same yesterday, today and forever
And I still believe Your blood is sufficient for me
[x2]

You're the higher power
Darkness cannot stand
No longer bound to sin, I am free
[x4]

And I still believe You're the same yesterday, today and forever
And I still believe Your blood is sufficient for me

Oh, all that I need
You are all that I need, Jesus
Your blood is enough for me
Oh, I believe, I believe, I believe, I believe, yeah

And I still believe You're the same yesterday, today and forever
And I still believe Your blood is sufficient for me
And I still believe You're the same yesterday, today and forever
And I still believe Your blood is sufficient for me

All I need
Come cover us right now
Come cover us Jesus
The blood, it opens deaf ears
The blood, breaks down disease
In Your presence, God, it has no place,
Pain has no place, disease has no place, sickness has no place
Weariness has no place, depression has no place
In Your presence, God, In Your presence, Jesus
We find all we need, we find all we need, we find all we need
In Your presence, Jesus
Oh, Jesus, all we need, is in You, Jesus
We believe, we believe, we believe
Tell Him tonight, tell Him tonight
Say I believe, I believe
Sing out in your words tonight
Let faith rise, let faith rise
Tell Him tonight
I believe, I believe You are who You say You are
You are the one who sees me, You're the one who's for me
You're the one who knows me, every hair on my head
You created me, how You love me
You're the one who has abundant help, abundant light for me
You're the one who has joy for me, Jesus
I believe, I believe, I believe
You are all I need
I believe, I believe, I believe
Oh, with all my heart, with all I am, even when I cannot see
I will stand with faith and I will believe
Oh, I believe, I believe, yeah

I believe, I believe
I will never stop believing
I believe, You are more than enough for me, God
I will not fear, I will not fear
Cause I believe
I believe

This is a tough issue because I think there is some really good worship music coming out of the bethel stream just like there is some really good coming out of IHOP and Hillsong although there may be some issues in these movements some more so than others.

I am at the point in my walk where I can separate the music from the background. If the lyrics are sound biblically that is good enough for me.

A lot of stuff played on mainstream "top 40" Christian radio is tripe, at least to me. The stuff coming from Jesus culture and bethel music and Hillsong seems to be deeper. Then mainstream artists like David crowder or Philips Craig and dean cover them and get all the credit. The commercialism of Christian radio is disgusting at least to me.

As far as Chan goes, he spoke at IHOPKC in late December 2013. (If you are old enough, you'll hear the Four Seasons in your head when you read that sentence. If not, you won't get this parenthesis. ;) ).

He carefully but explicitly corrected them. I know people will not always agree, some always will say "that isn't enough". Everyone must judge. I am always for truth. I am also for mercy in judgment where it is possible. Was it possible for Chan at IHOPKC? I won't say no. I believe that if he was wrong, God will show him. For now, I have seen nor heard anything to cause me to say of Chan, "he's left the fold". In fact, I quite think he is well inside it. I also think his house church ministry is very close to the kind of thing we see encouraged in the Gospel Fellowships.

"I am at the point in my walk where I can separate the music from the background. If the lyrics are sound biblically that is good enough for me."

TMK, this is not directed at you. I hear stuff like this all the time:

"I am a mature enough Christian that I can watch movies with explicit content and come away unscathed."

"I am a mature enough Christian that I can listen to worldly music and it not hurt me spiritually."

"I am a mature enough Christian that I can strain out the bad and keep the good."

Where in scriptures are we exhorted to live like this?

We are told to abhor what is evil and cling to what is good, but the context does not suggest a filter.

Honestly, I think that we (I am definitely including myself in this) walk a dangerous line when we think that we have the wisdom or the maturity to be able to apply a filter to our minds and hearts that would successfully stream out everything that is from the enemy. I am sorry. I am just not able. I can't walk into a porn store and say, "I'll just filter out the bad and keep the good." I can't listen to music that is worldly and say, "I'll just filter out the bad and keep the good." I can't listen to music that was written by those who, theologically, are way off base and reapply what I am hearing to what I already think. I am sorry, but if that is what we are doing then we are toying with some dangerous stuff here. Word-witchcraft is all it is.

Thoughts on the song Still Believe:

I've heard this song before and the testimony of my spirit is that the grounds are false. It is doing things that we never see in the New Testament regarding faith and walking in truth. You might think that because it is repeating the things that the Lord has done as real that it is inline but you have separate it correctly.

There is the issue with the use of the word "still" repeated so often. You don't use the word unless you possess doubt and here it sounds like the person has many reasons to disbelieve that God does these things which He does do.

There is also the issue of poor theology regarding the blood of Christ. The blood does not open deaf ear or heal blind eyes, God does because He has the power and authority. There is an issue wherein the Word links forgiveness of sin to healing but that is also linked to repentance. It may be suggested that here that the blood is being worshipped rather than God Himself.

Then it asserts that things like disease, depression and so on have no place before God. In what sense, if God sent them, how could they have no place before God. And yet, in the Gospels we know that Christ did not heal everyone.

Finally, in the last stanza there are the lines about not fearing. The Word teaches that having a clear conscience toward God will free you of fear. I know this from experience as I have come to obedience in areas where the Spirit has convicted me. Believing as mental assent does not free you from fear, obedience does which is faith walked out.

I am really troubled by lines like, "I believe that you are more than enough for me," because the speaker is admitting that Christ is not enough and they are tyring to project something rather than being still and resting in God. This is similar to all those songs that about how the singer is going to be doing something. The question is why aren't they in that place now?

If you are getting something from songs like this, you are in a very sorry condition and are backslidden. You can't walk in truth and say these kinds of things because they will not be true of you or God.

On one last note, the line asking the Holy Spirit to manifest Himself and claiming that it is happening is seriously in error. If those meeting and singing together are born again, the Christ is already present among them. If they are full of the Holy Spirit, He should be with them all the time. If they have these amazing "anointings" that you have to call to manifest then that implies that the "presence" has left and must return. It's complete error. Invoking the presence of the Spirit does not have any place in Scripture that I am aware of. This is a sign of a church that is acting like a harlot. She calls to her lovers. The married, submissive bride waits upon her bridegroom and He comes. He is lord, not her.

Jeremy,

I agree with most of what you said.

Here is what Hosea says,

""Harlotry, wine, and new wine enslave the heart.
My people ask counsel from their wooden idols,
And their staff informs them.
For the spirit of harlotry has caused them to stray,
And they have played the harlot against their God.
They offer sacrifices on the mountaintops,
And burn incense on the hills,
Under oaks, poplars, and terebinths,
Because their shade is good.
Therefore your daughters commit harlotry,
And your brides commit adultery."

..."Because their shade is good"... Sounds like pragmatism to me.

Also:

""Because Ephraim has made many altars for sin,
They have become for him altars for sinning.
I have written for him the great things of My law,
But they were considered a strange thing."

God wrote His word, and the things in it were strange to them...wow.

Well I would definitely say that comparing listening to a Jesus Culture song to walking into a porn shop is just a tad over the top.

It would probably also be for the best if you don't call persons who listen to this music a bunch of backsliders. The most solid Christians I know, several who are personal friends, listen to JC music. They are decidedly not in a backslidden condition nor are they deceived nor are they in danger of the fires of hell. They are simply people who walk the walk in their homes and work places, serve in their churches and who love to worship.

I think most mainstream evangelical Christians do not love to worship. That is just being truthful because I know many of them. If more than 3 songs are sung on a Sunday morning they get grouchy. And I think they see people that DO love to worship as a little odd. That's a real shame.

Jeremy---

The Brooklyn tabernacle choir (Jim cymbalas) church sings a song titled "more than enough". Are they backsliders? Brother Cymbalas must be for letting them sing such heresy.

The thought is BIBLICAL He is "able to do exceedingly abundantly above all that we ask or think."

I could parse and tear up a bunch of the old hymns like you did with that JC song but why would I want to do that.

I really don't think it is necessary to tear apart Jesus Culture music, although it does expose rotten theology, but I think the issue here is what is being promoted by their theology by the leadership and by the song leaders during concerts, etc.

Mormons are very family-oriented. They also take care of one another, very well. I am serious, they are much better at "fellowshipping" than we are in many cases. They also are extremely good at mission work. They know how to engage a culture on their terms and produce converts, without the use of any sort of force. They are incredibly good at it, at least on the surface. So, why shouldn't we start taking their ideas and using them for our fellowships? Why not take their ideas and use them for our mission work? It works for them? Some of the concepts they employ are very biblical.

Why shouldn't we? Because it opens a lot of doors to places that we don't want to be going. Things that in the long-run may have worked for a season but will destroy us later. There may be some JC music that is moderately acceptable, but why bother with it? Why not just write and sing stuff that is solid from the get-go? Why give your child a viper to play with when there are much safer alternatives?

This is part of the problem with Christianity in America.

We do all kinds of pragmatic, biblical-looking things, but when the next generation of us rolls around, they do not know that there is inherent danger in the things the previous generation promoted. Altar calls, invitations, the sinner's prayer, church buildings, etc, etc, etc. I could go on and on with the Christian-looking things that we have, but let's get down to facts: because those things placate or down right replace biblical preaching, teaching, etc the next generation will fall, hook-line-and-sinker for the deception that lies within. You, me, and our children are not strong enough to overcome that; we must keep our eyes fixed on Jesus only. Solo Christo--through Christ alone. Golly, I wish we could get back to that. I wish I would get back to that.

You can tear the mold off of a piece of bread and eat it, but that doesn't mean you won't get sick. If mold is visible on the surface, whether you can see it or not in other spots doesn't matter. It has already infected the entire piece of bread.

What did Jesus say? "A little leaven, leavens the whole lump!"

********************************************************

"I think most mainstream evangelical Christians do not love to worship. That is just being truthful because I know many of them. If more than 3 songs are sung on a Sunday morning they get grouchy. And I think they see people that DO love to worship as a little odd. That's a real shame."

THIS is very telling about us. Singing songs can indeed be a PART of worship. But that isn't worship in and of itself. It is so much more than that. When a believer says that they love worship, but they only mean that they love singing songs about God, it reveals that their worship is shallow or immature. How could a deaf man worship in such a case? He can't sing. Shoot, he can't tell he is even making a "joyful noise."

It is about our lives:

"I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that you present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable to God, which is your reasonable service. And do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind, that you may prove what is that good and acceptable and perfect will of God."

So, giving ourselves to God and conforming to HIS image is what worship is all about. Enough of the entertainment. Spirit and truth--the Father seeks such to worship him.

JC promotes a "spirit." but it isn't the Spirit of God. And they most certainly don't present truth. So it is not worship music. It is christiany-sounding, ear-tickling music. That's all.

Just look at this song in comparison to so many of the others we hear today:

Before the throne of God above
I have a strong and perfect plea.
A great high Priest whose Name is Love
Who ever lives and pleads for me.
My name is graven on His hands,
My name is written on His heart.
I know that while in Heaven He stands
No tongue can bid me thence depart.

When Satan tempts me to despair
And tells me of the guilt within,
Upward I look and see Him there
Who made an end of all my sin.
Because the sinless Savior died
My sinful soul is counted free.
For God, the Just, is satisfied
To look on Him and pardon me.

Behold Him there! The risen Lamb,
My perfect, spotless righteousness,
The great unchangeable I AM,
King of glory and of grace,
One in Himself I cannot die.
My soul is purchased by His blood,
My life is hid with Christ on high,
With Christ, my Savior and my God!

It's just a totally different caliber of song than many that we sing today

I know john piper is held in pretty high regard here but I know he spoke at Passion 2013 and guess who was on the stage leading worship prior to him speaking? Horrors.

Havok/

I can appreciate the words of the hymn you posted just like I can appreciate Shakespeare.

But times change.

I realize that relevancy is a naughty word especially in a forum like this. But I would rather see 10000 youths at a hillsong united concert worshipping (yes worshipping) than 10000 youths not worshipping. You are not going to get a lot of youth into a venue to sing hymns. That may be sad but it is true.

I certainly understand that there is more to worship than singing but we have been talking about music. The fact is that Christians in America as a rule have a tolerance for about 10 minutes of singing before they start squirming. That's just the way it is.

"Heaven and earth will pass away but my words will never pass away..."

I just don't think were quite on the same page, TMK.

Butters,

In regards to nothing being too over the top for sermonindex. You're probably right. I always (and most people who know me know this quite well) use extreme examples to make a point. If that detracts from what I am saying, then I am sorry. But I am just a man. I understand what I mean, but maybe not everyone else does.

I will be done with this thread, but before I do, I will post one last worship song. I do find it to be a great encouragement:

You have searched me, Lord,
and you know me.
You know when I sit and when I rise;
you perceive my thoughts from afar.
You discern my going out and my lying down;
you are familiar with all my ways.
Before a word is on my tongue
you, Lord, know it completely.
You hem me in behind and before,
and you lay your hand upon me.
Such knowledge is too wonderful for me,
too lofty for me to attain.
Where can I go from your Spirit?
Where can I flee from your presence?
If I go up to the heavens, you are there;
if I make my bed in the depths, you are there.
If I rise on the wings of the dawn,
if I settle on the far side of the sea,
even there your hand will guide me,
your right hand will hold me fast.
If I say, "Surely the darkness will hide me
and the light become night around me,”
even the darkness will not be dark to you;
the night will shine like the day,
for darkness is as light to you.
For you created my inmost being;
you knit me together in my mother’s womb.
I praise you because I am fearfully and wonderfully made;
your works are wonderful,
I know that full well.
My frame was not hidden from you
when I was made in the secret place,
when I was woven together in the depths of the earth.
Your eyes saw my unformed body;
all the days ordained for me were written in your book
before one of them came to be.
How precious to me are your thoughts,[a] God!
How vast is the sum of them!
Were I to count them,
they would outnumber the grains of sand””
when I awake, I am still with you.
If only you, God, would slay the wicked!
Away from me, you who are bloodthirsty!
They speak of you with evil intent;
your adversaries misuse your name.
Do I not hate those who hate you, Lord,
and abhor those who are in rebellion against you?
I have nothing but hatred for them;
I count them my enemies.
Search me, God, and know my heart;
test me and know my anxious thoughts.
See if there is any offensive way in me,
and lead me in the way everlasting.

jeremy221 wrote:
On one last note, the line asking the Holy Spirit to manifest Himself and claiming that it is happening is seriously in error.... If they are full of the Holy Spirit, He should be with them all the time.

The Bible says, "Come, let us reason together...." and I reason that this dislike of certain one's for IHOP and Bethel's music falls along doctrinal and denominational differences and nothing more. That is the MAJORITY of reasons for these long threads on sermonindex and every other christian discussion site. I cannot change your doctrinal beliefs and neither can you change mine.

Edit: forgot the link:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7qOqitIKUNs

God bless,
Lisa

These are the issues concerning the music that is coming out of Bethel church, IHOP, Passion, and many other contemporary groups of young people today:

Is the music soulish, and it is it 100% doctrinally correct? You do not have to even be very discerning to answer these questions. But I would like to pose a couple other questions to the ones that are critical of these young people that are participating in this music. Are they truly saved? Are they following Jesus? Do they believe the teachings of the bible? Are they being used by God to spread the fire to other young people? From my personal experience with many of these young people, having been in church services with them, prayed with them, and had fellowship with them, I would dare to say that most of them have a greater love passion, and committment to Jesus than most of their critics.

I would urge you to do some research on what took place in the "Jesus Movement" which occured in the late 60's and 70's in which I was a part of, and which was a true move of God, in which multitudes of young people that were in the "Woodstock Generation" gave up their drugs and immoral living and were radically saved, and many of them are preachers and ministers in churches today. The one thing that didn't change to a great degree was their music, only the words changed.

"There has been a long legacy of Christian music connected to the Jesus movement. Jesus music, also known as gospel beat music in the UK, primarily began when some hippie and street musicians of the late 1960s and early 1970s converted to Christianity. They continued to play the same style of music they had played previously but began to write lyrics with a Christian message."

I would encourage you to read the article in Wikepedia concerning the "Jesus Movement". Here is a quote from it.

"Jesus music primarily began in population centers of the United States where the Jesus movement was gaining momentum””Southern California (especially Costa Mesa and Hollywood), San Francisco, Seattle, and Chicago””around 1969”“70. Large numbers of hippies and street musicians began converting to born-again Christianity. A number of these conversions, especially in southern California, was due largely to the outreach of Lonnie Frisbee and Pastor Chuck Smith of Calvary Chapel in Costa Mesa. In the aftermath of such conversions, these musicians continued playing the same styles of music that they had been playing prior to their conversion, though they now infused their lyrics with a Christian message. Most of these early bands gigged whenever asked, usually for whatever money could be collected at the passing of a hat or basket. This was known as a love offering. Few, if any, made a living from playing in the years 1970”“73, nor did they expect to. Most viewed their music as a means of sharing their newfound faith and encouraging listeners to commit their lives to Jesus, no matter the sacrifice.[citation needed] Of the many bands and artists that came out of this time-period, some became leaders within the Jesus movement. Most notably among them Larry Norman, Barry McGuire, Love Song, Second Chapter of Acts, Randy Stonehill, Randy Matthews, and during the mid-1970s, Keith Green."What a Day" by Phil Keaggy.

Much of the music[3] was a blend of folk music and folk rock (Children of the Day, Paul Clark, John Fischer, Nancy Honeytree, Mark Heard, Noel Paul Stookey), soft rock (Chuck Girard, Tom Howard, Phil Keaggy, Mustard Seed Faith, Salvation Air Force, Pat Terry), R&B (Andraé Crouch (and the Disciples)), soul music/jazz fusion (Sweet Comfort Band), country rock (Bethlehem, Daniel Amos, Gentle Faith, The Talbot Brothers - John Michael and Terry Talbot, The Way), and hard rock (Agape, All Saved Freak Band, Petra, Resurrection Band, Servant).

Initially, the music tended to be relatively simple, as it drew largely on guitar-based folk and folk-rock influences. The message also seemed to be relatively simple, as the songwriters attempted to present the value of a Christ-centered spiritual experience without evoking the vocabulary or other trappings of ecclesiastical religion. Rather than quoting religious cliches or King James Bible verses, they used storytelling, allegory, imagery, and complex metaphors, often with a colloquial language that flustered conservatives.

In addition to the basic message of salvation, the lyrics often reflected the expectation of the imminent Second Coming of Christ prominent in evangelical circles at the time, reflected and heightened by the publication of The Late, Great Planet Earth. Larry Norman voiced this in his song "I Wish We'd All Been Ready," singing "There's no time to change your mind/The Son has come and you've been left behind."

Despite the message, the music was described by many as worldly at best or as "the Devil's music" in the worst case. This latter position was held by conservatives such as Bill Gothard as taught in his Basic Youth Conflicts Seminars. These were some of the main factors that caused many U.S. churches to largely reject the movement and these artists at the time. This suited many artists as they wanted to bring Jesus to non-Christians, not only to church youth. Larry Norman addressed this culture clash in his 1972 song, "Why Should The Devil Have All the Good Music?

So once again we are confronted with music that is being played and listened to mostly by the younger generation that the modern day church has not been able to reach. Many of these young people have come out of denominational Christianity, and they know who the true Christians are, and they can discern anyone that has a relgious, critical spirit, and if you come at them from this mindset, then you will loose them.

I would venture to say this, that the majority of these young people do have a love for the truth, and when they know that you have acknowledged that God is in their life, and speak the truth in love to them, they will gladly embrace what you are telling them and will reject that which is false.

So I would say this to those of you that would criticize "Jesus Culture" and IHOP and other groups of young Christians that are involved in music that you would consider soulish or even not 100% biblically correct, please don't be a wet blaket to them and put out the true fire that they have. Thank God that they are not doing drugs anymore, and are no longer living in immorality. They need the older more mature Christians to walk along side of them, encourage them, and to disciple them.

Mike

Wow Mike.

All I can say to that is amen!

As I was mowing the grass this morning I started thinking about the Jesus movement and how a whole culture was affected. I was born again as a Catholic, but after I was saved I began attending an AOG church. There was quite a mix of guys with hair down to their shoulders, the girls with the long dresses, and the older people that had been Christians for many years. I have to admit that they accepted us as we were, and this is one of the resons why many of us are still around today.

When I was saved back in 1972 the Lord led me to throw all of my worldly music away. This included everything from Led Zeplin to The Beatles.

One of the first albums that I bought back then was by "Love Song" that came out of Calvary Chapel that was pastored by Chuck Smith.

I came across this video on youtube that was done at a "Love Song" reunion. These old guys sounded very much like the first "Love Song" album that they recorded back in the early 70's.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NWHf3tB2v8k

Mike

Hi all,
Interesting debate.You know I watch "Times Square" regularly on Tv and Web and seldom am I disappointed with the sermon.
The only thing I switch off immediately is the worship.Maybe if you are there it is different but on Tv they sing one song exactly like the next.Hillsong the preaching is a turn off but they produced some brilliant music like "feet may fail".
As an example of a Church i'd like to attend and be part of Times Square ticks all the boxes though.
I wrote about this on another thread awhile back.
In my opinion the music produced for "worldly songs" is usually way better than music for "Christian songs".I know that might offend some people.Sorry in advance.
I dont fully understand why but one of the reasons must be that Christian Music is pidgeon holed into one type of melody.
Another thing for instance if I take the music of the rolling stones song "Angie" how do I tell whether it is Christian inspired or non Christian inspired?
Yours Staff

Hi staff-

I agree with you for the most part. A melody is amoral for the most part. I say for the most part that there are some melodies that can sound evil or scary. I know Bill Gothard argued about the "tribal beat" of rock music and how it was evil in and of itself- not sure I buy that but he is entitled to his opinion.

But I agree that the melody of "angie" could easily have been put to Christian lyrics. It would have been awesome but the Stones beat em to it.

Quite a long while back the worship leader at a church I used to attend put the words of Amazing Grace to the tune of "House of the Rising Sun" I thought it was brilliant but a lot of people about had a cow. The words do jive up nicely with that tune.

I have never watched any Hillsong preaching but their music is so very good and yes I think it is anointed.