Would you consider an ex-evangelical pastor who converted to Roman-Catholicism as saved?

Would you consider an ex-evangelical pastor who converted to Roman-Catholicism as saved? Would you call him a brother in the faith or an apostate?

The reason for asking is that the answer to these questions used to be crystal clear a couple of decades ago. Today however, some progressive evangelicals seems to applaud the growing number of evangelicals who crosses the Tiber. They do not even hesitate to call them brothers in the Lord.

So what's your opinion?

Sincerely Magnus

A question like this gets easily fogged up because of the intro to Catholicism. Intro that term and many hardcore Christians will cry FALSE or HERETIC.

I think it boils down to this. Find out what this ex evangelical pastor believes about his salvation, not about the church,but about his salvation and you will find your answer. Catholicism tends to create fuzzy lines in these kinds of situations.

With all due respect: My intention with the question is sincere and I did not post it in order to condemn catholics as such. I'm just asking for the opinions of others in the forum of what they think when it comes to evangelicals who crosses the Tiber.

Sincerely Magnus

Greetings Mangan

Edit: I withdraw my question. After praying on this I have to say this isn't a thread I feel led to take part in right now.

God bless
maryjane

With all due respect, why don't you just ask Ulf himself?

There are far to many individual variables in why any particular person makes such life decisions. There is no way a person could know that other persons heart without being personally acquainted with them, reading or hearing what they specifically say, or asking them directly. You certainly won't get an accurate idea about what happened with Ulf by asking a forum predominately used by Canadians and Americans. imho.

As a personal matter I don't have any way to understand the decision to go back to Rome. I minister in a community that, according to the 2010 census, reports themselves to be 98% practicing Catholic. I just received a letter from the district verifying that information. I am told it is the highest catholic concentration outside the Vatican. As a rule I have seen a great deal of damage done by the Catholic "faith". I see it destroying people beyond measure every week. However, there are a few (Very, very few!) shining lights of born again believers within its darkness. I think the ones I have seen that stayed within the Catholic church after a true born again experience, or who swam the Tiber to return, did so to bring light to others within that darkness. Most do not make it and eventually are dragged back into the superstition and idolatry. However, some aren't and are much like missionaries in a Muslim world ... except it is the Catholic world.

That being said, I don't understand the decision to swim the Tiber at all. However, each circumstance is totally different and we can't throw all of them into the same bag and judge them identically. Each person would have to be judged on their unique set of circumstances. That is why I suggest that the only way to get an answer for your question is from the guy who actually did it.

Ultimately only Ulf knows for certain why he has made the decisions he has. Ultimately only Ulf knows for certain if he truly heard from God or not. Guys and girls reading Sermon Index forums from North America have no idea what God has or has not spoken to him or what is in his heart.....although several think they do.

Solomon, did I mention Ulf? My question was general and I assume that there are US and Canadian counterparts. I think everyone here would be familiar with Scott Hahn.

Magnus

I would consider anyone - Catholic or Protestant - who is not genuinely born-again of the Holy Spirit to be unsaved. A better question might therefore be: "Can a born-again child of God convert to Roman Cathlolicism?"

There is no clear, objective answer to this -- just opinions.

Hello Mangus -

You stated

Solomon, did I mention Ulf? My question was general and I assume that there are US and Canadian counterparts. I think everyone here would be familiar with Scott Hahn.

No, you did not mention Ulf by name. However, he was in your thinking on the topic wasn't he?

It would seem that the things I wrote apply to anyone. Ulf, Scott Hahn, or anyone else.

I stated

There are far to many individual variables in why any particular person makes such life decisions. There is no way a person could know that other persons heart without being personally acquainted with them, reading or hearing what they specifically say, or asking them directly.

and

I don't understand the decision to swim the Tiber at all. However, each circumstance is totally different and we can't throw all of them into the same bag and judge them identically. Each person would have to be judged on their unique set of circumstances. That is why I suggest that the only way to get an answer for your question is from the guy who actually did it.

It seems to me that is true whether you are talking about Ulf, Scott Hahn, or anyone else on the planet that makes the decisions they have.

Your original question stated

Would you consider an ex-evangelical pastor who converted to Roman-Catholicism as saved? Would you call him a brother in the faith or an apostate?

You are asking people to give their opinions and judgements upon a persons eternal life or eternal damnation. These opinions would be from people who are in absolute and total ignorance of the individuals they are passing eternal internet judgements on. You are further asking for that opinion based upon nothing other than that they apparently "converted to Catholicism". There is no way people should be dishing out opinions about such things concerning people they know absolutely nothing about .... no matter who it is. Thus my thoughts about you only being able to get the actual truth from the person who made that decision. Anything else will consist of nothing but gossip , speculation, and opinions.

Hopefully that clarifies what I intended. These thoughts would apply to anyone. However, it would seem apparent that Ulf would be one in the forefront of your thinking. If not I apologize for assuming that. However, the thoughts would apply to whomever was being considered... Ulf, Scott Hahn,or any person it might be.

Solomon! My question is general and hypothetical. I'm not asking people to judge certain individuals.
I'm just asking if one would consider a former evangelical pastor converting to Roman Catholicsm and accepting all its teachings on the sacraments (and in particular the eucharist) and so forth as saved?

To be sure only God knows who is saved.

Magnus

Prior to the Reformation there wasn't much choice other than RC.

So were any of those folks saved?

I would say yes, if they were a disciple of Jesus Christ.

I believe that there were some Catholics saved in the past and who had more doctrinal accuracy... Some people just like the name association and benefits associated with the title of Catholic. For some it's like purchasing the name-brand shoes and clothing, which brings increased access. That doesn't make it right. Some people are saved; just misguided and in need of further training that others don't want to implement. Like a promiscuous lifestyle that may produce a disease, STD, or virus, there are so much epidemic strains of the doctrines and evangelicals today. IT used to be very black and white but now there's much confusion. Only God knows truly and absolutely. Kinda like the Tower of Babel in Genesis 11.

Postmodern Catholics are questionable. This reveals a need for a return to biblical Christianity and ecclesiastical/moral separation. IF we don't know 100%, I would present it as a caution or warning prayerfully. Watch and pray. We don't want to give railing accusations, be slanderers, be gossips, become heresy hunters, be overcritical, be sinfully over-judgmental, ... What if we were in their shoes (rhetorical question)?

I"m sure there were other smaller groups and pockets of saved individuals along the way including the disciples themselves in the bible. Jesus is all! Here are a few other familiar ones that God used:

The Montanists

The Novatians

The Donatists

The Britons

The Celtic Churches Of Ireland

The Paulicians

The Petrobrussians

The Albigenses

The Waldenses

The Anabaptists

Prior to the Reformation there wasn't much choice other than RC.

So were any of those folks saved?

I would say yes, if they were a disciple of Jesus Christ.

Of course, the objection that the abovementioned men and women were nothing but apostate mystics will be sounded by some, but that shouldn't matter. Non-RCC Men like Ravenhill, Tozer, John Wesley and others have been influenced by and attest to the authenticity of their ministries, and even writing mini-bios on some of their lives. Plus, some of their sermons and writings are featured here, on SermonIndex.

Salvation is not about being a part of or not being part of the RCC, or being Southern Baptist or Pentecostal or Lutheran or any denominational or nondenominational system for that matter. It is about the advent of the New Birth, which, in itself, is a very mysterious thing! Jesus Himself didn't go into very much detail when asked about it by Nicodemus. He likened it unto the mysterious "blowing of a wind" that no one could precipitate, prognosticate or prevent. If this "blowing" doesn't occur on an individual, then his or her RCC, Presbyterian or Anglican church affiliation is absolutely meaningless.

So the question again must be asked: Can the "blowing" of the Holy Spirit on an individual occur within the confines of the RCC? If the answer is no, then we must objectively prove the stance, which of course is impossible. I've discovered that people who make such blanket sweeps in judgment somehow assume the wind blows on denominations and on church steeples rather than on individuals hungering for God and following Christ in a way different from their own.

Good one Paul!

Just to reiterate: The question is not whether there are catholics who are saved (I assume there might be millions who are saved in spite of RC not because of its teachings) but whether a former evangelical pastor who changes his views and fully accepts all the Roman teachings (for instance the Real Presence of Jesus Christ in the Eucharist as only valid in the RC through the sacrament of the priesthood and necessary for your salvation) should be consider a brother in the Lord.

Magnus

Just to reiterate: The question is not whether there are catholics who are saved (I assume there might be millions who are saved in spite of RC not because of its teachings) but whether a former evangelical pastor who changes his views and fully accepts all the Roman teachings (for instance the Real Presence of Jesus Christ in the Eucharist as only valid in the RC through the sacrament of the priesthood and necessary for your salvation) should be consider a brother in the Lord.

Perhaps I am wrong, but I cannot grasp how a person can have a saving, biblical knowledge of the truth via authentic Holy Spirit illumination and then turn to the Eucharist salvifically. I would seriously question if he ever knew Jesus Christ to begin with.

"...grasp how a person can have a saving, biblical knowledge of the truth via authentic Holy Spirit illumination and then turn to the Eucharist salvifically. I would seriously question if he ever knew Jesus Christ to begin with."

I agree.

It's true some people were never saved to begin with.

Well, suppose that this hypothetical ex-evangelical pastor came to his catholic conclusion through a revelation from God and through biblical studies where he saw that the catholic dogmas was according to the Word of God. Suppose also that this hypothetical person considers the conversion not so much leaving protestantism as coming into the fuller expression of the faith in the Church that Jesus founded.

When the person says he needs the eucharist for his salvation that salvation is grounded in the finnished work of Christ on the Cross which gives validity to the priestly sacrifice in the mass. And when the person worships the sacramental bread that person do not longer consider the hostia as bread but as the living Christ himself bodily present. And further more all this comes to life and reality through faith and so on.

Such a person would clearly see himself as saved..

Take heed lest you fall: Romanism is on the move in our secularized western countries attracting a lot of people who are tired of shallow worship and lack of historical roots.

Sincerely Magnus

I have been praying about this thread since it went up. I wonder if the question in the original post had been:

"Would you consider an ex-evangical pastor who converted to the Muslim religion to be saved?"

I ask because both of these religions are false and not following JESUS. The lists of false teachings in the RCC is long, worship of Mary, praying to the dead, praying for the dead, the Pope being the vicar of Christ, Mary sharing in the suffering of Christ as co-redemtrix....

Knowing these things to be true, my response to this hypothetical person would be, to pray for this person. If they truly believe that following the false lies of the RCC are going to bring them into a fuller faith or walk with JESUS then I would say that they are deceived. How could following a religion that is full of sinful traditions, taking part in those traditions would be sin, how could that bring a person closer to CHRIST?? We are told: Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me." John 14:6
The RCC does not teach JESUS alone saves, there teaching is works based, you must be good enough to earn your place in Heaven. I would pray for this person, I would share with them the fire they are playing with, I would share the truth with them in love but if they refused to repent, if they remained in following, promoting, and taking part in the teaching of RCC then no I would not call them brother. I would continue to pray for them but I would not fellowship with them or lie to them and pretend that the RCC is just another way to follow GOD. Loving someone means we don't compromise the truth. Loving someone means in CHRIST we tell them the truth and pray for them to see the Light. I would not call someone who converts to being a Muslim brother either.

The RCC is not a gray area because they follow "some of the Bible" their faith, their traditions, their teaching is not Biblical. They do not follow CHRIST alone. Pray for those lost in the RCC church they need JESUS, just as the lost in the world need HIM, just as we need HIM

God bless
mj

Unless he repent there is no hope for him. The bible told us to persevere to the end, 'once saved always saved doctrine' will not save him.

repent of what?

Perhaps from many things, such this one does not happen in an instant. It may have evolved from bitterness, pride, lust fear, contentiousness, and so on and so fort, then the big apostasy happened.

passerby

Seems you are suggesting he should repent for things that you are suggesting that he has. Is that fair? Should you be throwing out things like that just because he went to the Catholic church? I am just asking. Too often we become critical of people who go elsewhere without understanding why they went that way especially in the context of religious ideology.

Do you mean out of ignorance of the gospel by a pastor? If not with repenting how can he be reconciled with God? For what specific issues, it is between him and the Lord.

Hey guys, you can all watch live from this link as the Pope speaks to the great crowd of charismatics later today:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PX2GuLILIC8

Additional information concerning the above see:
http://instagram.com/p/oseJiLAyGp/
http://instagram.com/p/oslPJNAyOl/
http://instagram.com/p/os2gLvPV4J/#
http://www.rinnovamentoroma2014.org/

Magnus

Greetings Neil
Thank you for sharing this link here with us. I hope to listen to it this afternoon.

I pray you are doing well brother.

God bless
Mj