Don't Let Your Mouth Stop Your Blessing

The children of Isreal are a great example of the point I want to make, don't let your mouth stop your blessing. God had already told them that the land was there's and to go and possess it, but they said "We be not able to go up against the people; for they are stronger than we." They forgot that it wasn't about them, God had already told them what he would do. So, it wasn't about what they could do, but what they could do with God. And if you continue to read in Numbers 14 they continued to talk about how they would die in the wilderness. The whole congregation began to cry and mourn except for two of them Joshua and Caleb. They were the only ones that said, "Let us go up at once and possess the land." And as a result of their words God said in Numbers 14:28-35, "Say unto them, As truly as I live, saith the Lord, as ye have spoken in mine ears, so will I do unto you." And God went on to say how that whole generation of that congregation that spoke would die in the wilderness except two of them, Joshua and Caleb. So, the ones that said they would die in the wilderness got what they said. And the ones that said we are able and let us go up at once and possess it got what they said. Notice in Psalm 78:41 it says, "Yea, they turned back and tempted God, and limited the Holy One of Isreal." How do you think they limited the Holy One of Isreal, with their words.

Another clear cut example of your words stopping your blessing is found in 2Kings 7:1,2. When there was a great famine in the land and the king of the land went to go see the man of God to get a word from the Lord. And Elisha said, "Hear ye the word of the Lord; Thus saith the Lord, To morrow about this time shall a measure of fine flour be sold for a shekel, and two measures of barley for a shekel, in the gate of Samaria." Now, watch the response of the kings helper, "Behold, if the Lord would make windows in heaven, might this thing be?" And the man of God said, "Behold, thou shalt see it with thine eyes, but shalt not eat thereof." Notice that man's words cut him off from something he had a right to. That's why Proverbs 30:32 says, "If thou hast done foolishly in lifting up thyself, or if thou hast thought evil, lay thine hand upon thy mouth." In other words don't let it come out of your mouth. When you have thoughts of unbelief and doubt don't let them come out of your mouth. Because your words could cut you off from what God has for you.

Praise God! Thank you!

Thank you for taking the time to read this article. Thank You!

Is the Word of Faith movement biblical?
http://www.gotquestions.org/Word-Faith.html

"Is 'name it claim it' teaching biblical?"
http://www.gotquestions.org/name-it-claim-it.html

"Is there power in positive confession?"
http://www.gotquestions.org/positive-confession.html

Christianity in Crisis:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E7jHvm-MKfE

People can "confess" things all they like, but it won't make a bit of difference if God hasn't decreed it. This "power of confession" metaphysical farce which has merged in with Christianity over the past few decades is absurd. I've known people who were sick with the flu but would never "confess their sickness" out of fear of claiming it. I also know people who are in serious debt because of money mismanagement, but who will not "confess" it out of fear that their money curse will perpetuate.

The article here references verses from the Old Testament. Brethren, I've said it before and I'll say it again. The Old Testament is the wrong place to go for New Covenant life. In the Old Testament you'll find scripture on generational curses, for example -- which do not apply under the New Covenant of Jesus Christ. The only element of "positive confession" which makes any difference in the New Testament relates to one's saving testimony of Jesus Christ. There is no teaching of "confessing" or "claiming" worldly success, personal conquests, health, chariots, or oxen or gold. There is only laying hold of Christ. There is also no doctrine of a Christian's words being able to alter reality. Only righteous prayer does this. So, don't be deceived by metaphysics masquerading under the garb of Christian lingo. You can only be fooled if you don't know God's Word in fullness.

I believe this....
In other words don't let it come out of your mouth. When you have thoughts of unbelief and doubt don't let them come out of your mouth. Because your words could cut you off from what God has for you. ...
I believe if we walk by faith as we are supposed to we will see what we believe. and get it.
If we ask for favor psa 5:12 His favor is for a lifetime.
If we walk in this and speak it.. WE WILL HAVE IT>>
Joshua listened to the two spies not the other eight.
He got to the promised land.. WE must I believe remember if we have faith it pleases GOD.. faith the size of a grain of mustard pleases HIM>>
Blessings..
Frannie

There is also no doctrine of a Christian's words being able to alter reality. Only righteous prayer does this.

And Jesus saith unto him, I will come and heal him. The centurion answered and said, Lord, I am not worthy that thou shouldest come under my roof: but speak the word only, and my servant shall be healed. For I am a man under authority, having soldiers under me: and I say to this man, Go, and he goeth; and to another, Come, and he cometh; and to my servant, Do this, and he doeth it.

When Jesus heard it, he marvelled, and said to them that followed, Verily I say unto you, I have not found so great faith, no, not in Israel. And I say unto you, That many shall come from the east and west, and shall sit down with Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, in the kingdom of heaven. But the children of the kingdom shall be cast out into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

And Jesus said unto the centurion, Go thy way; and as thou hast believed, so be it done unto thee. And his servant was healed in the selfsame hour." - Matthew 8:5-13

When Jesus heard it, he marvelled, and said to them that followed, Verily I say unto you, I have not found so great faith

Anyway, you can test it to see if I am wrong. Try naming and claiming something, anything and then see if it happens the way the prosperity preachers teach. Try confessing or claiming something according to your will, however you desire, and then wait and watch. Even if you think you have faith for whatever it is, nothing usually happens. This is because faith has to be united with an official promise established by God in His Word and not from some arbitrary desire springing up within ourselves.

If we want God to do something for us, all we have to do is ask Him. But this is heart prayer, not "mouth power". There is a tremendous difference between the two: the difference between metaphysics and Christianity. One is autonomous, as though we have some mystical power within ourselves to alter reality based upon our words and confessions; the other is, quite simply and quite dependently "Not I, but Christ". Can you see the difference?

im not into that blab it and grab it fodder ,,but the bible does teach that we can heal through speaking to the fever or sickness imfirmity ,,,every example of healing in the newtesament was done in that way or laying on hands ,,so faith filled words in this context are powerfull gifts from god ,,as well as the touch of a faithfilled hand

now that is a very interesting truth of scripture ,that iv seen working with my own eyes

the bible does teach that we can heal through speaking to the fever or sickness imfirmity

"Is any one of you sick? He should call the elders of the church to pray over him and anoint him with oil in the name of the Lord.And the prayer offered in faith will make the sick person well..." (James 5:14-15)

The sick Christian is not to "confess" he is not sick, or speak to the sickness, or to "claim" wellness (implying the cure lies within the power of his mouth). He is simply to pray. Sometimes the Lord heals, but then sometimes He does not. Paul left Trophimus sick in Miletus (2 Tim. 4:20). Someone with as much faith as Paul had, you would think he could "speak" to the sickness. Or simply have Trophimus confess with the power of his mouth he was not sick, as some health and wealth preachers teach.

I hope this clarifies what was said above by Gary.

Gary didn't claim that you "claim" or "confess" wellness when speaking to a sickness. His reference was simply that a sickness can be directly addressed in the manner that Jesus did several times throughout the Gospels (Luke 4:39). Walking as Jesus walked, he has witnessed authority over sickness by addressing it directly. Speaking to a sickness like Jesus did is sign of faith not "the power of the mouth." If you anoint with oil when lead to speak, you sin.

The claim that apostles and others after Jesus' time on Earth only anointed with oil and prayed has the exception of the account the handkerchiefs and aprons that Paul touched that healed the sick and cast out demons (Acts 19:12) and how those who were in the shadow of Peter were healed (Acts 5:15).

However the above does not preclude the methods God might use with those who have the spiritual gift of healing. It is nowhere defined but it is safe to suggest that it at the least correspond to what Jesus Christ did.

The claim that apostles and others after Jesus' time on Earth only anointed with oil and prayed has the exception of the account the handkerchiefs and aprons that Paul touched that healed the sick and cast out demons (Acts 19:12) and how those who were in the shadow of Peter were healed (Acts 5:15).

Don't worry - I am not a cessationist by any measure! I have seen my own children miraculously healed after my wife and I anointed them with oil and prayed. Both my wife and I have been healed ourselves by the same method, and given public testimonies. We know it's not the only way, but as far as we know there are no Peters and Pauls walking around central Texas with anointing hankerchiefs (around here they're called bandanas ;)) or casting miracle shadows upon the pavement that we can step in.

I guess I don't consider praying for healing, "speaking" to the sickness, for the only speaking (verbally or noverbally) is directed to God only. The sickness is the indirect object, whereas God is the Direct Object.

If God chooses, He can heal. If He doesn't heal, that is also an answer to the prayer. "No" is just as valid an answer as "yes". But I feel it is incorrect and poor New Testament exegesis to say our "tongue-articulated" confessions or claims (apart from petitions addressed soley to God) can hold any effective clout in the spiritual.

I guess it sort of depends on whether we as Christians are God's agents. An agent has authority to speak on the master's behalf. I think that is why we see the apostles commanding vs. praying.

I think we are agents which is why we pray or command things in Jesus' name.

We can command a fever to leave in Jesus' name or we can pray that God remove the fever if it be His will. Agents should already know the will of the Father so the latter option to me is kind of a measly mouthed prayer.

Of course that is just my opinion.

To me the idea of not speaking negative things is simply a way to exercise faith. If all we do is gripe and complain and always see the downside it's not the best way to live.

We can be like Eeyore or Pollyannas-- I think God prefers Pollyannas.

We can command a fever to leave in Jesus' name or we can pray that God remove the fever if it be His will. Agents should already know the will of the Father so the latter option to me is kind of a measly mouthed prayer.

Here is probably the greatest agent the church has ever seen, praying before he lays hands on a sick man:

"There was an estate nearby that belonged to Publius, the chief official of the island. He welcomed us to his home and for three days entertained us hospitably. His father was sick in bed, suffering from fever and dysentery. Paul went in to see him and, after prayer, placed his hands on him and healed him. When this had happened, the rest of the sick on the island came and were cured." (Acts 28:7-9)

It would make for an interesting study to take all the healing instances in the NT and see how many times (if at all) actual sicknesses are rebuked verbally, diretly; i.e. "I command you, _______ (fever, paralysis, etc.) in the name of Jesus..." versus "Jesus Christ heals you. Stand up and walk." with no mention of "I" (Peter) bind.." or "I" (Paul) rebuke.." or "I" (John) take authority.." as you hear so often today by the self-proclaimed healers. You may think I am nit-picking, but there is a profound difference between the two.

It would make for an interesting study to take all the healing instances in the NT and see how many times (if at all) actual sicknesses are rebuked verbally, diretly; i.e. "I command you, _______ (fever, paralysis, etc.) in the name of Jesus..." versus "Jesus Christ heals you. Stand up and walk." with no mention of "I" (Peter) bind.." or "I" (Paul) rebuke.." or "I" (John) take authority.." as you hear so often today by the self-proclaimed healers. You may think I am nit-picking, but there is a profound difference between the two.

Is this not the same as FrankinB was saying about our words (or choice of words, or choosing whether or not to speak) stopping the blessing?

from what iv read in the newtestament ,, i havent seen one instant whare some one prayed to god for the healing and then god healed,,,the example you showed paul is that the apostal layed hands on for the healing ,,,the implications seem to be that it was the touch of the faithfull hand that god used to heal ,,,,,in all honesty we dont even know what paul was praying about ,,it may have been for healing ,it may have been for faith ,,it may have been for a filling of the holy sprit ,,,,,the scripture are silent on that ,,,but if we look at most of the examples a comand in jesus name or a touch of the hand ,be it laying on of hands ,,or grasping the hand of the sick ,,with out any formal prayer is evedent ,,,or ther examples ,,,the plain comanding the spirit of imfirity or what evea name it has ,to leave in jesus name ,,,no prayer at the time of the healing

if my memory is correct ,,,,,when jesus said to his deciples this one only comes out by prayer and fasting ,,which seemed to be why they could not cast the spirit out of the boy ,,,,the result was a weak faith jesus said ,,,,,jesus did the job by comand ,,,,,,this shows that the pray needed for the expulision of the demon did not take place at the time of the healing ,,therfor proably was not a pray directly related to that particulal healing ,,this may well be the case in the example you show from acts paul west

but it think it realy comes down to christs athority and his comamding us to do it

he said all athority on heaven and earth has been givern to me ,,,therefor you go

jesus then tells his deciples to go and make deciples of all the nations teaching them all that he taught them

once a person fully believes that god comands him to do it ,,,to lay hands on the sick ,,cast out deviles ,,speak to the mountaint of the fig tree ,,,then gods power will operate through that kind of faith ,,because christ has all athority of heaven and heart ,,,and he lives in us ,, so it not be us healing anyone it will be chist who dwels in us ,,,

isee what you mean ,,,but for instance when peter told the laim man to get up walk in jesus name ,,,he wasnt asking ing if he wanted to get up and walk or he wansnt giving the man two chioces ,,,he comanded him to get up it also interestion ,,that this man was not expecting to get heal so he would hav not had the faith to be heald ,,so it was peters and johns faith wich manfested it self in a comand and a laying on of hand

I think I should have included this link also in the list of links I posted earlier on this thread:

"What does the Bible say about the prosperity gospel?"
http://www.gotquestions.org/prosperity-gospel.html

Having been caught up in the health and wealth name it and claim it prosperity gospel for some years as a newer Christian, I guess you can say I have sort of an insider understanding of just how harmful it is to those caught up in it. That's why whenever I see it propagated in any way it's hard for me just to sit back without saying or doing anything.

we shouldn throw out the baby with the bath water tho

I agree that God heals through man (note: not man through God, very important to differentiate), but I think we are talking past each other and should get back to the original premise of the thread, of which I am challenging as metaphysics, and which others have rightly judged as word of faith error:

"In other words don't let it come out of your mouth. When you have thoughts of unbelief and doubt don't let them come out of your mouth. Because your words could cut you off from what God has for you."

From this statement it can be gathered that it is not the unbelief and doubt of the heart which can "cut you off", but rather the "release" of the doubt through your mouth. In other words, "the power of the mouth", or "word power". This concept is not found in the New Testament, other than letting your yes be yes and no be no. The New Testament teaches that words of unbelief, doubt, cynicism, anger, blasphemy, etc. are but the outpourings of a corrupted heart - nothing more. They have no inherent power of their own. God looks upon the heart; a man's words are only symptomatic of a condition God already knows about.

Now, in the realm of soul, we have a dynamic which is termed "psychosomaticism" which basically means "mind over matter" (or, more accurately "soul over matter"). In psychosomaticism you can use the power of positive thinking and confession to alter your state of reality to varying degrees. But now we have left Christianity and have entered into the metaphysical realm. It has nothing to do with the Holy Spirit. This phenomenon has infiltrated the church over the past several decades and is what we now call "Word of Faith" doctrine.

From the last article I shared the link to:

"A favorite term in the Word of Faith movement is "positive confession.” This refers to the teaching that words themselves have creative power. What you say, Word of Faith teachers claim, determines everything that happens to you. Your confessions, especially the favors you demand of God, must all be stated positively and without wavering. Then God is required to answer (as though man could require anything of God!). Thus, God's ability to bless us supposedly hangs on our faith. James 4:13-16 clearly contradicts this teaching: "Now listen, you who say, ‘Today or tomorrow we will go to this or that city, spend a year there, carry on business and make money.’ Why, you do not even know what will happen tomorrow. What is your life? You are a mist that appears for a little while and then vanishes.” Far from speaking things into existence in the future, we do not even know what tomorrow will bring or even whether we will be alive."

Read more: http://www.gotquestions.org/prosperity-gospel.html#ixzz32pnWU4Yc

"Instead you ought to say, "If the Lord wills, we shall live and do this or that." But now you boast in your arrogance. All such boasting is evil."-James 4:15-16

Word of Faith teachers hate the phrase, "If it be Your will." They say it cuts off your blessing because it reveals a lack of faith. Yet that kind of reasoning contradicts the clear teaching of Scripture.

"Likewise also these dreamers defile the flesh, reject authority, and speak evil of dignitaries. 9 Yet Michael the archangel, in contending with the devil, when he disputed about the body of Moses, dared not bring against him a reviling accusation, but said, "The Lord rebuke you!" 10 But these speak evil of whatever they do not know; and whatever they know naturally, like brute beasts, in these things they corrupt themselves. 11 Woe to them! For they have gone in the way of Cain, have run greedily in the error of Balaam for profit, and perished in the rebellion of Korah. 12 These are spots in your love feasts, while they feast with you without fear, serving only themselves. They are clouds without water, carried about by the winds; late autumn trees without fruit, twice dead, pulled up by the roots; 13 raging waves of the sea, foaming up their own shame; wandering stars for whom is reserved the blackness of darkness forever."-Jude 1:8-13

Word of Faith teachers also hate the phrase, "the Lord rebuke you Satan" and say it also reveals a lack of faith. Yet that kind of reasoning also contradicts God's Word as we see in the above passage.

"A favorite term in the Word of Faith movement is "positive confession.” This refers to the teaching that words themselves have creative power. What you say, Word of Faith teachers claim, determines everything that happens to you. Your confessions, especially the favors you demand of God, must all be stated positively and without wavering. Then God is required to answer (as though man could require anything of God!). Thus, God's ability to bless us supposedly hangs on our faith.

If we want God to do something for us, all we have to do is ask Him. But this is heart prayer, not "mouth power". There is a tremendous difference between the two: the difference between metaphysics and Christianity. One is autonomous, as though we have some mystical power within ourselves to alter reality based upon our words and confessions; the other is, quite simply and quite dependently "Not I, but Christ". Can you see the difference?

However, it must be understood that words themselves have power. Jesus Christ, Himself, said: "And he said unto them, I beheld Satan as lightning fall from heaven. Behold, I give unto you power to tread on serpents and scorpions, and over all the power of the enemy: and nothing shall by any means hurt you. Notwithstanding in this rejoice not, that the spirits are subject unto you; but rather rejoice, because your names are written in heaven." - Luke 10:18-20

If this power does not come in the form of words, then how else is this power put forth? I do know that just standing in the LORD also has power against the enemy, but how can they be tread upon if we have no shoes on?

God's Word is all powerful. When my words are aligned with His, there is power. Where my words are not aligned with His, there is no power. When I have unbelief, the only words I try to allow to come out of my mouth are "O LORD, I believe, forgive thou mine unbelief.

"If this power does not come in the form of words, then how else is this power put forth?"

By faith, words are 'spiritual code', faith makes them work by the power of Jesus. There is a tight connection to the Creator using His words BY faith, without faith you are left with the 'spiritual yet mechanical' component of words. The spiritual content of words come alive by the Holy Spirit, without that Spirit they are just incomprehensible code, open to any interpretation.

That is what the WOF does: they operate by the faith in THEIR faith, what is also an essential part of magic. Their god is self, and they 'short curcuit' the faith component, their faith is not based on the faith of Jesus, the power they posses is of 'self', and the results they get is of the same quality, not of God, not by the Holy Spirit, not lasting, not real, perishable, just a 'technical trick' playing with components. The Creator is not part of it by faith, what they got is a 'mechanical solution' they want to apply in His name, but they apply it in Their name. That doesn't work because they operate without Him and without His Spirit.

I just confess good things because it makes me feel better, and if it's Gods will to Bless me with my confession, well it's all the better.

By faith, words are 'spiritual code', faith makes them work by the power of Jesus. There is a tight connection to the Creator using His words BY faith, without faith you are left with the 'spiritual yet mechanical' component of words. The spiritual content of words come alive by the Holy Spirit, without that Spirit they are just incomprehensible code, open to any interpretation.

That is what the WOF does: they operate by the faith in THEIR faith, what is also an essential part of magic. Their god is self, and they 'short curcuit' the faith component, their faith is not based on the faith of Jesus, the power they posses is of 'self', and the results they get is of the same quality, not of God, not by the Holy Spirit, not lasting, not real, perishable, just a 'technical trick' playing with components. The Creator is not part of it by faith, what they got is a 'mechanical solution' they want to apply in His name, but they apply it in Their name. That doesn't work because they operate without Him and without His Spirit.

Thank you for this a-servant. I will pray that the LORD help me to understand further. I will also pray that He give me the faith necessary for others to hear the words that He has put upon my heart - that they might be saved from that which is to come.

I do understand about the anointing of the Holy Spirit. Oh the blessedness of hearing Him pour through a vessel that He has anointed!

Brothers,

Please bear with me as I do not wish to cause any offense or division. I do not see anything wrong with FranklinB original post? Did I miss something?

How did his exhortation turn into word of faith, name it and claim, psycosomatic positive confession????

Proverbs 18:20-21 A man's belly shall be satisfied with the fruit of his mouth; and with the increase of his lips shall he be filled. (21) Death and life are in the power of the tongue: and they that love it shall eat the fruit thereof.

Psalm 109:17-18 As he loved cursing, so let it come unto him: as he delighted not in blessing, so let it be far from him. (18) As he clothed himself with cursing like as with his garment, so let it come into his bowels like water, and like oil into his bones.

James 3:8-10 But the tongue can no man tame; it is an unruly evil, full of deadly poison. (9) Therewith bless we God, even the Father; and therewith curse we men, which are made after the similitude of God. (10) Out of the same mouth proceedeth blessing and cursing. My brethren, these things ought not so to be.

We can either speak life and blessing or death and cursing from our own mouths. The bible is quite clear that our words have power.

My heart is not to sound condescending and will be honest with you all, I have seen much of that in this forum on various topics.

When we confess Gods word from a believing heart, this is not positive confession for Gods words are spirit (living) and they are true (life). His words do have creative power and when we use them in faith, it's not us that brings forth what He has promised but God Himself.

He has promised to give us these words in our hour of need, whether it is to pray, bless, rebuke, admonish, correct, exhort....

Can we stop our own blessing or the blessing of others by our words?

Proverbs 12:13-14 The wicked is snared by the transgression of his lips: but the just shall come out of trouble. (14) A man shall be satisfied with good by the fruit of his mouth: and the recompence of a man's hands shall be rendered unto him.

The bible is full of examples of what words, speaking, confessing will bring forth with a right heart and a wrong heart.

Brothers, here is how this whole thing has spun out of control. Many times we all have a tendency to be so focused on all the error that is out there in Christendom, like the things that were brought up in this thread, or things that surround the Holy Spirit and the Gifts of the Holy Spirit, that we end up missing the genuine.

When people are so focused on the false they cannot see the truth or leave no room for the truth. Like the one brother who said, don't throw the baby out with the bath water.

I am as opposed to word of faith, prosperity preaching, positive confession as they come, but every time someone makes a confession based on Gods word does not necessarily make it the former.

I do not know the brother who started the thread, I do not know the intent of his heart. His silence and lack of defense or clarification makes me sway even the more that no ill intent was intended.

I bear witness with the exhortation. I make it a point in my own life to guard my own words because I do not want to be rash with my mouth.

Has anyone ever heard a parent curse their own children saying they will never amount to anything, that they are nothing but screw ups, never do anything right??

I have, and those children ended up just like their parents spoke. I have also seen the power of God and His words yielded by His children in love and faith come and bring life to those same children.

When we confess Gods word, or, I will say it, make a positive confession based on scripture, all we are doing is agreeing with God.

Remember Jesus always responded to the devils temptations with,"It is written".

We need to remember where all this error has come from and the men who are caught up in these errors and false teachings a doctrines. In my own zeal for truth and coming against these things in the past I have wounded many of Gods sheep by putting words they never meant in their mouths and also wrongly judging the intent of their heart.

It cost me my marriage and my wife left and divorced me. Then God got a hold of me and began to teach me how to believe, exercise faith, and SPEAK life and blessing back into my wife and marriage and God turned my wife back to me and we remarried.

I do not post much here because I have seen a wolf mentality in many discussions but I do see both sides of the discussion and tend to agree with both in the proper context and intent of course.

Even though I have made many mistakes in my past and was critical toward others because they did not see the truth, does not mean that I wasn't speaking the truth back then.

The problem was how I packaged and delivered the truth, my heart was not right and those whom I was addressing/attacking were pushed away.

I hope this makes sense because I have been praying and pondering this for several days as it says we should do.

Bless You All,
BD

Amen defella! Well stated.

i d have to agree with defella the word of faith have taken it to the extreem ,,,but there is a balance theres power in the word of god and when we believe it and speak it god releses power and healing and athority ,,that is what the bible teaches ,,dont let the word of faither steal our birth right

even believeing in our heart and confession is made unto salvation ,,when we believe in the power of the resarection and confess jesus is lord ,,paul said it

we aline our hearts through faith in gods power and let the overflow of gods truth come out of our mouth ,,and salvation from sickness demonic opression ,,can accour in the phical realm ,,,,it is the verry same princapal

we do have a birth right ,,if we are children of our evelasting father and when he died we inherited athority in his name ,,becasue of his name and who he is

paul said you have rained has kings with us ,,and we are a roual priesthood

dont underestamate the adoption ,and being born of god ,,partakeing in the devine nature ,,and christ in us the hope of glory ,,we can do all things in christ who strengthens me,,,ask and you wil recieve that my father will be glorafied ,,,if you had faith you could say unto this mountaint ,be tho removed ,go hence forth into to the sea ,,,

blessings

I have always said, folks are entitled to their on set of opinions, but not their own set of facts. The Word of God is a fact book, read it and let the spirit minister to you what each scripture is saying to you personally. Man can and will cause confusion, the spirit never will, if your not sure, or confused, go with the Word.

"For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine, but according to their own desires, because they have itching ears, they will heap up for themselves teachers; 4 and they will turn their ears away from the truth, and be turned aside to fables."-2Timothy 4:3-4

"Therefore I testify to you this day that I am innocent of the blood of all men. 27 For I have not shunned to declare to you the whole counsel of God. 28 Therefore take heed to yourselves and to all the flock, among which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers, to shepherd the church of God which He purchased with His own blood. 29 For I know this, that after my departure savage wolves will come in among you, not sparing the flock. 30 Also from among yourselves men will rise up, speaking perverse things, to draw away the disciples after themselves. 31 Therefore watch, and remember that for three years I did not cease to warn everyone night and day with tears. 32 So now, brethren, I commend you to God and to the word of His grace, which is able to build you up and give you an inheritance among all those who are sanctified."-Acts 20:26-32

Brethren, this is not the first time FranklinB has posted WOF teaching on here. At other times it's been more obvious.

The tough thing about a forum like this is that anyone can come in and have a platform to promote false teaching. We must take heed in these days of mass deception in the churches.

It seems there may be some "talking past each other" on this thread.

I agree that franklinb has frequently posted on topics like this and that he rarely sticks around to discuss what he has posted.

But I don't think any of the regular posters here are adherents to WOF /prosperity teaching.

However you don't have to be a proponent of WOF teaching to believe, for example, that physical healing is provided for in the atonement or that our words have power.

Now don't fly off the handle because I am not making the case for either proposition. All I am saying is that you don't have to be a WOFer to believe those two things. I agree that WOF is an abominable doctrine or mindset or whatever a person wants to call it.

This is one the foundational understandings of the wof stream. This doctrine is not tolerated here under any circumstances.

To post things of this nature here is like shouting bomb at a flight terminal and expecting the TSA to pat you on the back and say well done.

To even admit that there is some truth in it would be adding validity to this teaching. The vocal minority do not want any part of this teaching.

Moderators lock the thread and move on.

Hey Zeke--

You need to tell us how you really feel about it. Don't hold back.

However you don't have to be a proponent of WOF teaching to believe, for example, that physical healing is provided for in the atonement or that our words have power.

And, yes, the words of a man can bring power. They can either build up or tear down another human being; they can either verbally abuse or encourage, but they cannot alter reality or manipulate one's destiny like what is being put forth in this thread. But when a man has the mind of Christ, is filled with the Holy Spirit and then speaks, his words can impart spiritual life and edify because God's Spirit speaks through him. Spirit begets spirit, just as flesh begets flesh. Man's tongue in the prophetic is just a yielded vessel in the Hands of God, with no intrinsic power of its own other than to speak forth the words God gives him.

Well said brother Paul. The whole thing of physical healing being provided for in the atonement can be a great cause for unnecessary discouragement and stumbling. That view says that if you are sick it is always God's will for you to be healed so if you don't get healed there is something wrong with your faith or walk. It reminds me of Job and his accusers who insisted that Job was in his predicament due to some type of sin. God strongly rebuked those accusers.

Amen Brother Paul, "Iron Sharpens Iron".

Matthew 8:16-17, "When the even was come, they brought unto him many that were possessed with devils: and he cast out the spirits with his word, and healed all that were sick: That it might be fulfilled which was spoken by Esaias the prophet, saying, Himself took our infirmities, and bare our sicknesses

with all respect paul who should i listen to you my brother or mathew 8,,the inspired words of god

the inspired word of god says , through mathews interprtation of isaias ,,that the true context is not spiritual healing only ,,but rather the atonement was for phisyical healing ,,,,

i noticed how mathew interprates isa 53 4 which is the verses about the atonment,,,,he changes the words born our greifs and carried our sorrows ,,with took our imfirmitys and carried our sickness

the flow of the contex shows acording to mathew he was baring sin as well as sickness ,,,,this is why he could forgive sin and heal sickness ,,and why he could say ,,which is easeyer to say your sins are forgivern ,,or get up and take up your mat and go home ,,,but becasue he said to show you that the sone of man has the athority to forgive sin ,then he says get up ,,wich was the comand to heal ,,,,,,,jesus saw sin and sickness so closly related that he if you look closely ,youl see that he blends the two by forgiving and healing at the same moment

hey sorry about the bad spelling ,,,does any one know how to get my spel check working ,,it use to work ,,and show my bad spelling and underline it,and i would right click on it and it would give me a list of correct words and i would choose the right one

oraco brother with all respect ,,what you said is only one view of some who believe that healing is ion the atonment like the word of faithers ,,and john g lake ministerys ,,,you cant say that all thoses that believe in atonment healing believe that ,,becase its not true at all ,,,,,a sweeping generilisation

Matthew 8:16-17, "When the even was come, they brought unto him many that were possessed with devils: and he cast out the spirits with his word, and healed all that were sick: That it might be fulfilled which was spoken by Esaias the prophet, saying, Himself took our infirmities, and bare our sicknesses

with all respect paul who should i listen to you my brother or mathew 8,,the inspired words of god

If this were the case, we would never get physically sick as long as we walked in the light, for in the same way the blood of Christ cleanses us from all the "sickness" of spiritual sin when we walk in the light, the same must then be for our physical sicknesses when we compare scripture with scripture according to your exegesis of Isaiah 53.

I believe Peter had the correct healing context of Isaiah 53, dear brother:

"Who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness: by whose stripes ye were healed." (I Peter 2:24)

i dont think peter and mathew contradict one another but his emphises in that verse is on the spirual and mathew of the phicial healing

brother when you say that about healing you have to ask the question why do we still sin ,,if cleanseing and being saved from sin is provided for in the atonment,,some people would have different answers for that no doubt ,,but you must aply the same logic both ways

the weakness of the flesh would easly answer both predictaments , with out needing to go any further

we still sin for that reason ,,,and we must still get sick for that reason ,,we can eloborate and also point to others things as well ,,we get sick becasue we still sin we get sick becasue we are still in a fallen world

theres nothing that contradicts that

i dont believe the word of faith doctrines that says we only get sick due to lack of faith

why we dont get heald some times is due to not apropreating heal through faith in the same way some people strugle in a beseting sin wich they dont recieve the benifites of the atonment due to lack of faith in the atonment ,,santfication is also by faith and some christians dont relies that they have been set free by the blood ,,it took me ten years to relise that with my cigereet and dope smoking strong hold ,,,but once i was convinced i was set free by the blood and took a leap of faith i experenced the power of spitual healing and have not had a joint scince ,,praise be to god for his provision ,,,god has provision for healing if we can believe it ,,it is possable,,if we doubt what the blood and beating of this sin bare did ,,then we will most of the time not experence the benift of his bearing our sickness

im all for the sovernty of god and the eturnal decrees election and predesination ,, im verry closes to the doctrines of grace as taught by the old calvinists ,,bondage of the will ,,faith being totaly a gift from god ,,,but im carsamatic when it comes to the gifts ,,i despises peleagisism and dont realy like arimiinisim much to be honest ,,,i try to let the bible speak for its self and concider what other saints believe ,,so im one of those weird cross breeds that is not excepted in any camp becasue i dont adhear to any denominations creed so to speak ,,,but for me i see truth in all ,and thats as far as i can go with a clear concence

like paul said we should be fully convinced in our own mind ,,,and that is what we all aim for ,,rather then to believe a doctrine and confess it as true ,, when we dont realy believe it ,,,,so i respect others views to a certaint extent ,,,but prospertity blab and grabe and carnal flesh doctrine i dont respect that as you would neither

blessing to ya

Gary- don't worry about your spelling. We get what you are saying.

Paul- for the record I agree with you on this issue with some reservation.

Again, I agree that WOF teaching is horrible. But true men of God (like AB Simpson) have believed healing is provided for in the atonement and at least a scriptural case can be made for this viewpoint. Gary has a point about that Matthew scripture, which has always been the verse that gives me pause because it certainly by a plain reading SEEMS to be applying Is. 53 to physical healing.

What I don't like to see is when a person who may believe in this point of doctrine is AUTOMATICALLY lumped in with WOFers. It is not true and not fair. I have several good Christian friends who believe this and they are by no means WOF or prosperity proponents.

I remember hearing the phrase "Words create worlds" at a church I attended for a short period of time. I didn't attend there long because of that sort of nonsense. That type of thinking is New Age 101 and was the basis for books like "The Secret" a few years back.

The flip side, however, is that what comes forth out of our mouth is evidence of what is in our hearts and like you said our words have power. So while there is no "magic" to words we say we do have a certain level of authority, and responsibility to speak forth truth and life. I think faith declarations are indeed important. How else will the world know that we are Christians? When I hear a person express strong faith verbally it is encouraging to me. On the other hand when a person expresses doom and gloom it has the opposite effect. Now I realize that there is some doom and gloom in the Bible particularly in the OT prophets and there was a purpose for that. But I am talking about our daily lives and how we respond to the stuff that we all have to deal with.

i dont think peter and mathew contradict one another but his emphises in that verse is on the spirual and mathew of the phicial healing

The stripes of Jesus (the blood), however, assure healing from the sickness of sin under all circumstances. There is not one verse in all the NT that states God is obligated to heal us physically (let alone it being in the atonement); whereas there are a plethora of verses, of course you know, that states God is faithful and just to cleanse us of all our sin (not just to forgive us of our sin, as this was too available under the Old Covenant). It is truly amazing how few people really understand these contrasts.

edit : "I felt a need to delete the copy and paste part of the book and my comment and to encourage everyone to read the entire book:
The Gospel of healing by A. B. Simpson
http://www.cmalliance.org/resources/archives/downloads/simpson/the-gospel-of-healing.pdf

why we dont get heald some times is due to not apropreating heal through faith in the same way some people strugle in a beseting sin wich they dont recieve the benifites of the atonment due to lack of faith in the atonment ,,santfication is also by faith and some christians dont relies that they have been set free by the blood ,,it took me ten years to relise that with my cigereet and dope smoking strong hold

Dear brother, the only type of healing assured 100% of the time in Christ is the spiritual healing (cleansing) for sin: and you don't need a Smith Wigglesworth type of faith to appropriate it. You don't have to work it up. You don't have to beg God. You don't have to hope and pray and get a whole church board to join you and fast for a week in the hopes that everyone's faith will be sufficient and God work a miracle. If you have to do all these things to get God to do something, it is not in the atonement, rest assured dear brother.

If, on the other hand, "physical healing" were in the atonement (that is, on par in efficacy with "spiritual healing" from the power of sin), Christians would not need doctors; they would not die from health reasons and I would probably soon be out of a job. I really don't think we understand what we are saying when we say something is "in the atonement". It seems it's become a catch-all phrase to obligate God to do certain things in Christ which you cannot find delineated in scripture contextually, and therefore cannot be substantiated, even amongst genuine believers (and who are not cessationists, I might add).

Brother Gary writes:

oraco brother with all respect ,,what you said is only one view of some who believe that healing is ion the atonment like the word of faithers ,,and john g lake ministerys ,,,you cant say that all thoses that believe in atonment healing believe that ,,becase its not true at all ,,,,,a sweeping generilisation

Also, I want to point out that I am all for standing on the Word of God and the promises of God to the believer. There are many promises in the New Covenant we can grab a hold of by faith. But I would say they are mainly and mostly spiritual in nature as opposed to physical or material. And this is the problem with WOF, they make all those promises physical and material when they are not intended that way in the NT. In the OT there were material blessings promised to Israel that are not promised in the New Covenant.

When it comes to cessationism vs non-cessationism, maybe you could say my views are somewhere in the middle. Let me explain. I do not believe the same type of miracle and healing ministries as we see in the first century church are available today, insofar as the frequency and level of power. I believe they were intended to be as frequent and powerful in the early church for a divine purpose, namely to prove who Jesus is and establish His Church. But I do believe God does occasionally perform mighty miracles today sovereignly as His sees fit. I do believe the gift of tongues is for today but not for every believer. I do believe in anointing with oil and praying in faith for those that are sick. But we must be humble about it not like you see with the WOFers.

honestly paul i think that is just glosing over the text of mathew ,,,,and literal does not say jesus was a man of compassion

i think the verse in james says alot about what he thought about sickness

is there any sick among
let him call for the elders of the church
and tlet thm pray over him ,anointing him with oil in the name of jesus christ
AND THAT PRAYER OF FAITH WILL SAVE THE SICK
AND THE LORD WILL RAISE HIM
and if he has comited any sins they will be forgivern of him

but he also says a double minded man is unstable in all his ways ,,let him not think that he will recievs any thing from the lord

now if these were my words i would get slamed wait wheres my helemt ,,,,,,for being to confident and makeing people feel bad for being sick ,,,but james in that leeter makes it clear that the prayer of faith in jesus name ,,will do the job ,,,,but we can see repentence from sin is nesasary this to me shows this is a blood thing going on ,,,calling on the sin and scikness barer

in honesty i thnk that the resonablity here is on the elders to have the faith

but it would imposable to know that in your eys when some did not get heald what the reson was
but saying that god just doesnt want to heal is a cope out becasue truely many people who get prayer for healing from elders or them selfs ,,dont realy believe god will heal them,,,they are double minded ,,,,theres seems to be ifs in the pray and in there faith ,,,,god can heal if he wants heal me god if it is your will ,,,,thats is praying in unbelief not faith ,,its not easy stand and pray or speak healing ,and no for sure you have recived the answer of your prayer ,,,but that is what it takes ,,,,but with out healing in the atonment ,we realy have no assurence unless we recieved a prophecy or a word of knowlage

ill stick my neck and say many if not most people are not sure when they pray ,,,some how it seems much easy to be sure obout forgivness of sin ,,,,but realy show me person who is walking compleatly free from sin ,,no more pride not lust at all ,,no foolishness ,,,compleatly sangtfied by the blood of the atonment ,,,,now hay that is how we all should be walking ,,,,unless the atonment failed ,,,but honestly we all know the atonment did not fail but we still have the remenent of the flesh active ,,it is the same with healing ,,,,,we dontwalk aroung in a totaly sangtifed state of healing ,,,,,,but in the same way at the same time in the twigling of an eye we wil be compleatly santfied from the flesh and sin and sickness ,,through the atonment work of the beatings and the bood at the time god chooses

why does not god totaly obliterate the flesh now to get rid of the rements of the vecale or sin and sickness ??????

we dont fully know that answer ... but the answer can be aplied and should be aplied tp both sickness and sin

word of faithes hate this ,,,,maby he humbles us and breaks ,us ,and causes a contrite spirit ,,by allowing us to still sin and be sick and many cases ,,,so we have no trust in our self ,,and are needy

ill have to read some of ab simson stuff on healing in the atonment ,,,aparntly he is well excepted by sermon index

blessing

honestly paul i think that is just glosing over the text of mathew ,,,,and literal does not say jesus was a man of compassion

The gist is that Jesus understands our pain, our sorrows, our infirmities, our grief -- as He Himself has partaken of them (borne them). He came down to our despicable level and partook of everything you and I would have to deal with, gave His life as a ransom, and by His stripes (blood) we are healed (cleansed) of the curse brought on by our iniquities.

I felt I should clarify the following in case of a misunderstanding:

I do not believe the same type of miracle and healing ministries as we see in the first century church are available today, insofar as the frequency and level of power. I believe they were intended to be as frequent and powerful in the early church for a divine purpose, namely to prove who Jesus is and establish His Church. But I do believe God does occasionally perform mighty miracles today sovereignly as His sees fit.

I did not mean to say that God only heals on rare occasions. I believe He heals physical sicknesses daily through the prayers of His saints as He wills. But I believe there is a significant difference overall between healing in the first century and healing afterward. Ever since the first century there has never been such a healing ministry as back then, that is the clear and plain testimony of history. We only hear of such kinds of powerful healings on rare occasions here and there. Pentecostal believers say it is because of a lack of faith or because of sin or what not. I don't believe that argument is really that valid with all due respect. I believe that that view has the potential to cause unnecessary guilt and discouragement which God would not want us to go through. It's like laying a heavy burden on believers which God doesn't want for us to be under.

Edit: But again, I'm all for praying in faith for the sick, believing God is more than able to heal any and every kind of sickness and disease in Jesus' mighty name.

I do not agree with this article. The standard and blessings referred here are old covenant. The standard that 'you may have unbelief in your heart but do not speak it out' is Old covenant standard where the laws were external. In New covenant the standard is internal, in sermon on the mount Jesus warned us about internal sins like anger in heart, adultery in eyes not even in action etc. our new covenant standard should be not even entertain any thought of unbelief.

The blessings of New Covenant are all spiritual and not physical, like becoming rich, capture nations, abundance of food etc. I am happy that brother like Paul here is quick to spot such prosperity teaching that are entering SI.

hi paul how on earth do i get healing in the atonment

because of the context and of the verses that we are talking about as many have believed like andrew murry and ab simpson ,i sopose

4 Surely he hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows: yet we did esteem him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted.

5 But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed.

6 All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the Lord hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.

7 He was oppressed, and he was afflicted, yet he opened not his mouth: he is brought as a lamb to the slaughter, and as a sheep before her shearers is dumb, so he openeth not his mouth

mathew intreprets veses 4 and used the words infirmitrys and sickness instead of born aour griefs and carried our sorrors ,,,i allready said that brother,,so i take matwes interpratation of isa rather then inject my own

verse four is showing along with the following verses that this the atonment ,, he carried sickness and imfirmity and god smited the the lanmb as anatonment he excepted his own offeering

brother i honestly cant see how any one could read mathew and isa ,and think otherwise ,,,the smiting of god and the bareing sickness is in the verry same verse ,,,,as the lamb of god he bore all our sin and sickness in his body on the cross which is the alter and was slayed and smittin of god ,, god excepted this as the atonment ,,,,,this is so verry clear

sree with all respect franklin as been posting this rubbish for a long time now and this is the first time to my knowlage that a moderetor is jumping on it

blessings

oh oraco ,,,,brother iv herd of your possion becasue i used to take that possion ,till i found out that i could not find any teaching in the bible to suport the idea that healing and miricals wont happen as much any more liike they did in the days of the twelve apostals ,,,its not taught one has to pull verses out of the bible and squese the teaching out of verses that dont literaly teach it as a bibilcal doctrine ,,,i cant do that ill stick to the apostals doctrine writern and taught in scripture ,,rathher relie on experence infrences

now brother if im missing the clear teaching that says literaly nthat healings and miricals and prophecy is not to be expected to be at the same level ,,can you show me exactly whare that is taught

cesasinist do that sort of thing with a few verese and creat there own doctrine and nulafie the clear bible teaching on miriculas gifts

i want to do and know what the bible doctrtines are ,,not some infrences derived from interpratation of selcted veres ,,,you know what i mean brother

Brothagary,

Brother, praise the Lord for your wisdom on these things. Isaiah 53:4 does indeed speak of physical healing not spiritual.

Isa 53:4 SurelyH403 heH1931 hath borneH5375 our griefs,H2483 and carriedH5445 our sorrows:H4341 yet weH587 did esteemH2803 him stricken,H5060 smittenH5221 of God,H430 and afflicted.H6031

The Hebrew word for Griefs H2483 means malady, anxiety, calamity, disease, grief, sick, sickness.

It is used 24 times as stated below mostly the word (11 Times) sickness. In all 24 times however this word means Physical sickness not spiritual

chŏlı̂y
Total KJV Occurrences: 24

sickness, 11
Deu_7:15, Deu_28:61, 1Ki_17:17, 2Ch_21:14-15 (3), 2Ch_21:19, Psa_41:3, Ecc_5:17, Isa_38:9, Hos_5:13

disease, 7
2Ki_1:2, 2Ki_8:8-9 (2), 2Ch_16:12 (2), 2Ch_21:18, Ecc_6:2

grief, 3
Isa_53:2-3 (2), Jer_6:7, Jer_10:19

griefs, 1
Isa_53:4

sick, 1
Isa_1:4-5 (2)

sicknesses, 1
Deu_28:59

At the end of the day remember what Jesus said, Be it unto you according to your faith. Jesus healed multitudes when He was here on earth and He still heals multitudes today period.

You can give one verse of scripture that makes a point to one individual and they receive it by faith and run with it and reap the benefits of Gods word.

Others however, you can give them 50 verses and they still, by an act of their own will choose not to believe.

Physical healing belongs to every believer, because one day, when we step into eternity for the believer that is, we will no longer be sick we will be made completely whole.

Dying is not the end of the world as many like to focus on and blame God for not healing and try to argue that healing is not in the atonement.

When you die in Christ you are being promoted to Gods Kingdom.

People focus on the heroes of faith in Hebrews 11 and say they all died having not received the promises of God.

Has anyone ever considered the fact that they actually did receive EVERY promise when they reached Glory? When they died they were smack dab right in the midst of what they died in faith believing for, they saw and see Jesus.

God is the same, yesterday, today, and forever. The first time I ever experienced absolute divine healing was when I was 17.

I was a sinner and met my first born againers, we worked together and I became very ill with strep throat.

They laid hands on me and prayed for me and I was instantly healed. I've experienced multiple healings since, now at 53.

I too have and had sickness in my body as well. Brothers, we are all going to die!!!! It is appointed unto us already once to die but then comes the judgement.

All the promises of God are yes! they are not up for debate, the only thing that stands between us and the promise is us, Never God.

Some promises will be fulfilled on this side of Glory and some on the other side.

When we preach the Gospel and tell people about their state of sin and hoplessness how many times do they bring up other people and their issues? They say, What about this guy, or why does God allow this or that?

When Jesus was resurrected he restored Peter asking him 3 times if Peter loved Him, after all that and when Jesus told him what manner of death Peter would end up dying, what did Peter say?

He pointed to John and said, What about him? Jesus said, what is that to you, if I allow him to tarry?

FOLLOW ME!

As far as turning this whole thread into WOF, still do not see it. I do not know about FranklinB, even if he is a Word of faither, it has no bearing on what Gods word says.

I choose not to believe in the word of faith of men but rather put my faith in the word of God.

Why do people get sick in the first place? For me, I know for a fact, I have gotten sick because of sin in my life, I was chastened, sought the Lord, repented, and the sickness lifted.

I have issues now, I am getting old, I trust God and His grace, but one day I will die and THEN I will be made completely whole because healing is IN the atonement.

Please brothers, I do not wish to fight or debate about this but had to say what I said. If you knew me, you would know it is never my intention to offend, hurt, or demean anyone.

But as we all are doing is contending for the faith because we love God, it does not make anyone less or more in His eyes. I know some will be offended by what I have said, but it is not my heart or intent.

brother i honestly cant see how any one could read mathew and isa ,and think otherwise ,,,the smiting of god and the bareing sickness is in the verry same verse ,,,,as the lamb of god he bore all our sin and sickness in his body on the cross which is the alter and was slayed and smittin of god ,, god excepted this as the atonment ,,,,,this is so verry clear

As far as I know, there has never been a case where God's will has been for a sinner to retain his or her sin (for His grace is sufficient to tolerate it) after coming to Him through genuine repentance and humility. You must come to terms with this reality. If both spiritual and physical healing are provided for in the atonement, both should be equally available, equally consistent, equally efficacious. One should not require a greater measure of faith to activate. In other words, the same faith that allows for sin's remittance must also heal all bodily sickness in that very same moment, if they are both part of the same atonement.

This, of course, does not happen. There is no way around this unless you are prepared to say (like Bill Johnson and others) that the Apostle Paul lacked the necessary faith in these instances for healing. But I don't not think you are ready to jump off that precipice.

Again, dear brother, God was already healing "all" bodily infirmities long before Jesus came to earth. If you were sick, you could basically get your healing on demand. You could get forgiveness of sin on demand, too. Everything was on demand, externally, under the Old Covenant. What could God offer to this fallen world through His Son's Atonement that they didn't already have?

P.S. I believe it is very healthy to discuss these things in a charitable, respectful manner. Dear brother I appreciate you expressing your point of view with deference and sharing your exegesis with the community. I wish all topics could be discussed here in such a manner, without emotions coming in and personal affronts being made. I commend you dear brother!

I think I've said all I can on the matter. Thank you again for the edifying discussion. Keep digging into the scriptures in true Berean fashion! Blessings!

Brother Paul

I've felt like I should write an article on diving healing and this thread has helped motivate me to actually write it out. My reason for posting is that in my research for this article I came across an article posted right here on Sermon Index. It was posted several years ago and didn't get any responses! It was written by A.B. Simpson.

https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=38708&forum=34&0

Please read this article. It amazes me how people deny the connection between the verses in Isaiah 53 and Matthew 8. We do this to not only our own hurt but the whole world's!

well i ment its verry clear to me but theres is many doctrines that are not unaversely accepted points of armininisim ,and calvinism ,,,things like election ,,, there can still be great divisions on doctrines ,,unanversal exceptance is not our mesuring stick of truth ,,surely we can agree on that ,,so i would not like to use that as an argument to discount a doctrine ,,i think to day the majority of christian have a twisted gosple when it comes to real repentence saving faith and holiness ,,we here are probably an exception...

brother i think we are only asuming at best due to the popurpus of scripture ,,,weather timothey stayed sick or got healed ,,,i dont think it is a good idea to use a verse like that ,to suport the idea that healing is not in the atonment ,,,,maby he was heald ,maby he wasnt ,,,,but if we take the leter james in to account and excepted it literaly and look to all the others healings which are many , he more then likey got healed at some point ,,,when we look at the other brother who paul left sick ,trophes,,i think that was his mane ,,,,,,,paul would have no doubt prayed for him as we all would have done ,,,but there was no instant healing,,,but paull did say god showed mercy and healed him in the end ,,,so that may have been what happend to timothey ,,,,,i , like to try to let scripture interprate other parts of scripture ,,one example to shine light on a another ,,,there is much heaing in the new testament but not much evadence of people staying sick and dieing of sickness ,,,,,when we look corinthians ,,,,,people were sick and died ,,paul used the word slept ,,becasue of sin regarding disonering the body and the blood of christ ,in the lords supper ,,,the flip side would be if they did not sin like that ,there would not be many sick or dieing ,due to whay paul called chastisement or judment

no where does paul say its ok your sick and there nothing you can do about ,,but james deals with it and say get the elders let them pray with faith , that WILL SAVE THE SICK

we dont see them saying what many christains are saying ,,that it is gods will that you be sick dont bother to keep praying and dont worry just except it

i cant find any place where that is said

i know of the verse where it must have been gods will to chastise the sinning brother when paull say to hand him over to satan for the destruction of the flesh ,,,,,,,

some how that was to help this person repent and see the destrutive nature of sin ,,,hand him over to sin ,so he can hit the bottom so to speak ,,some times this will create a hating of the flesh and a real desire for god ,,,when god keeps his distance ,its a fearfull thing that can create an apatite for god ,,and thankfullness when one is fully restored ,,he who is forgiven much loves much ,,and grace seems more gracfull

the lord could have blinded paull and reveled him self at any time but god chose to do that after paul basicly became a muder of christians ,,,,now paull became the master at teaching self wothtlessness and total unwortheyness

i see your point that it seems like it takes more faith to be healed,,,maby we just have to much doubt stored up in the area of healing and miricals ,,maby it is becasue we have dweld so much of the one side of the gosple that part is more easly believed ,,, if faith is like a mustard ,,have we wartered with the word as we should ,,,i dont think i did for many years

dear brother i think the bible teaches that god passed over the sins previously commited in the old couvernt only due to the atonment performed in the new ,,,that was the only basis for healing an forgiveness ,,in our eyes ,the atonement happend 2000 or so years ago ,,in gods eyes jesus was the lamb slayed before the foulndation of the world ,,god is out side of time ,,,,,he sees the past present and future as one ,,other wise he could not have claimed to have slayed the lamb before the world was .....

brother its allways good to talk with you and seeing the way you treat others in this fourm it is surely salt and light in my eyes ,,,and i love to see a humble heart in action ,it allways makes an impression on me ,,,,i could imagine if we were or more like that our disusions would be full of good fruit all the time ,,,brother i dont want to seem like im a doctrine pusher ,,so with that i will bow out ,and say thank you for our chat

blessings