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Self Examination

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sermonindex


Dear Saints,

Came across this today and OUCH. Time for self-examination.


TWENTY TWO QUESTIONS

THE HOLY CLUB, TO WHICH JOHN WESLEY

BELONGED, ASKED THEMSELVES EACH DAY

AS A PART OF THEIR DAILY DEVOTIONS

1. AM I CONSCIOUSLY OR UNCONSCIOUSLY CREATING THE IMPRESSION THAT I AM BETTER THAN I REALLY AM? IN OTHER WORDS AM I A HYPOCRITE?

2. AM I HONEST IN ALL MY ACTS AND WORKS, OR DO I EXAGGERATE?

3. DO I CONFIDENTLY PASS ON TO ANOTHER WHAT WAS TOLD ME IN CONFIDENCE

4. CAN I BE TRUSTED?

5. AM I A SLAVE TO DRESS, FRIENDS, WORK OR HABIT?

6. AM I SELF CONSCIOUS, SELF PITYING OR SELF JUSTIFYING?

7. DID THE BIBLE LIVE IN ME TODAY?

8. DO I GIVE IT TIME TO SPEAK TO ME EVERDAY?

9. AM I ENJOYING PRAYER?

10. WHEN DID I LAST SPEAK TO SOMEONE ELSE ABOUT MY FAITH?

11. DO I PRAY ABOUT THE MONEY I SPEND?

12. DO I GO TO BED ON TIME AND GET UP ON TIME?

13. DO I DISOBEY GOD IN ANYTHING?

14. DO I INSIST UPON DOING SOMETHING ABOUT WHICH MY CONSCIENCE IS UNEASY?

15. AM I DEFEATED IN ANY PART OF MY LIFE?

16. AM I JEALOUS, IMPURE, CRITICAL, IRRITABLE, TOUCHY, OR DISTRUSTFUL?

17. HOW DO I SPEND MY SPARE TIME?

18. AM I PROUD?

19. DO I THANK GOD THAT I AM NOT AS OTHER PEOPLE, ESPECIALLY THE PHARISEE WHO DESPISED THE REPUBLICAN?

20. DO I GRUMBLE OR COMPLAIN CONSTANTLY?

21. IS THERE ANYONE WHO I FEAR, DISLIKE, DISOWN, CRITICIZE, HOLD A RESENTMENT TOWARD OR DISAGREE? IF SO WHAT AM I DOING ABOUT IT?

22. IS CHRIST REAL TO ME?

‘GIVE ME ONE HUNDRED PREACHERS WHO FEAR NOTHING BUT SIN, AND DESIRE NOTHING BUT GOD, AND I CARE NOT A STRAW WHETHER THEY BE CLERGYMEN OR LAYMEN; SUCH ALONE WILL SHAKE THE GATES OF HELL AND SET UP THE KINGDOM OF HEAVEN ON EARTH. GOD DOES NOTHING BUT IN ANSWER TO PRAYER’. JOHN WESLEY

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Sidewalk

I'm having trouble with number 19. Like the Pharisee, I am not thinking kindly toward the republicans.

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sermonindex

I'm ashamed to admit I'm having trouble with more than just a few of these. Lord, soften my heart again as it has gotten hard and I'm letting the flesh rule me.
L

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Sree

Thank you brother for sharing it. Very useful.

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sermonindex

I 'pass' on about 5/21 at most. Maybe 6-7 on a good day.

Now, if this this the 'Holy Club' Wesley was part of during his time at Oxford (before his famous Aldersgate experience)then hit appears that this constant self scrutiny did not give him much peace either.

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PaulWest

Now, if this this the 'Holy Club' Wesley was part of during his time at Oxford (before his famous Aldersgate experience)then hit appears that this constant self scrutiny did not give him much peace either.

This is true. I admit I fail at just about all of them on a regular basis. I'm sure Charles and John did too. A list of religious standards like this is unattainable, and will burn you out.

It will happen because Jesus never intended us to keep a checklist of what to do and what not to do. We need to be filled with the Holy Spirit. The purpose of a list like this is to drive you to Jesus Christ with all your misery and failure to keep it. It is simply to be a mirror. Over time these "dirt stains" we see in the mirror will decrease more and more as we yield to God and wash them in the blood. God will give us grace to overcome them, as long as we are not trying to do this ourselves by going down a checklist. But once we start checking things off, rest assured the area you just checked off will be the very area in which you will soon fall.

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MrBillPro

22 Questions that can lead you right into condemnation. If your answer to 22 is no, you can disregard the other 21. Or if your answer to 22 is yes, no worries, there is no condemnation in Christ.

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sermonindex

Brothers and Sisters,
Certainly I agree that doing something with a religious mindset without the Holy Spirit will bring condemnation, but scripture clearly says
‘examine yourselves to see whether you are in the faith.’ (2 Cor. 13:5)

The questions in the list are just that, self-examination. Perhaps one is doing well in many of these areas. If not, why does a question bother us? Several bothered me and I have asked God to reveal my heart over some areas of my life where I have felt free to do what I want or harbor resentment. He forgives, he cleanses, he brings a change of heart, then I am free to live again with no impediments.

My life has been held in a great "holy tension" between conviction of sin and forgiveness, of moving in the Spirit or listening to my own justifications or excuses. I know that apart from Him I can do nothing, but I dare not give up on examining myself to see if I am in the faith, dare I?

Because something is difficult or requires self-discipline, am I free to wait for the "wind of the Spirit" to move me.
This is critically important to me because I was raised in a religious atmosphere that required perfection without knowing Jesus Christ or being filled with His Spirit.

But just because this was my background, does not excuse me from being disciplined by His Holy Spirit? If anything I have found the requirements to be even higher, but my ability to be Holy an innate desire and the battle to subdue my own will completely impossible...Except that Christ lives in me and draws me deeper or higher or wider or longer, as the case may be. Richer and more rewarding, more abundant and as I said before a HOLY TENSION that acknowledges HE IS GOD and I am going to have to yield something in order to "Come Up and Be There".

By the way, here is where I ran across the list. On David Ravenhill's blogsite,

http://davidravenhill.wordpress.com/2014/01/13/13-january-2014-1201/#comments

I've met the man and he walks in holiness. He holds up a standard which much of the church is now rejecting and he was raised by a man we all respect deeply, Leonard, who impacted the church of the 20th century profoundly.

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mama27

I am appreciative of this list, lesmanto. It is increasingly easy to become complacent in areas of compromise just because of the culture we live in and the people we brush up against. We ARE to examine ourselves, yet always remembering there is no condemnation in Christ.

Along these same lines I will share a quote (my paraphrase) that I heard on Moody Radio the other day by Vance Havener. I had to look up when he lived, and he died in 1986, which put an exclamation point after what he said PRIOR to that year....It went something like this:


"The church needs to raise the bar on holiness. It is so low that you would have to backslide to find fellowship there"...wow....

Thanks for what you shared.

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Sidewalk

Working one's way to a status has always been a recipe for failure, no matter how noble the steps and components. The only thing waiting at the other end of the success is pride of accomplishment, and the house of cards crumbles anyway.

What doth the Lord require of thee, but to do justice, to love mercy, and to walk humbly with God.

Then you will look back and be amazed at the good things God set into your path, and you will fondly remember at the judgement the joy of serving your Master.

"I was hungry and you fed Me, naked and you clothed Me, in prison and you visited Me..."

"When did that happen?"


If we commit to loving Jesus and doing the activities each day as His servant, treasures in heaven will accumulate. There will be no need for a "performance list" and the grey cloud of nagging guilt to rob your joy.

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dolfan

Lesmanto,

Spell check number 19. :)

"Republican" instead of publican.

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PaulWest

Certainly I agree that doing something with a religious mindset without the Holy Spirit will bring condemnation, but scripture clearly says
‘examine yourselves to see whether you are in the faith.’ (2 Cor. 13:5)

Yes, but we need to understand what "in the faith" means. Is the faith ours, or is it the faith of the Son of God? Keeping in context with New Testament scripture, the faith is that of God's Son. In other words, we are to examine ourselves to see if Christ is in us, and this is evidenced by whether or not we are reprobates. If Christ is in us, we will not be reprobates; if He is not, we are reprobates. The word reprobate is translated from the Greek "adokimos" meaning unapproved or worthless.

When I examine myself improperly, I see only my own corruption, no matter how hard I try to be good. I see all my failures, my spiritual wishy-washiness, my internal moral corruption. You can give me a book of a million and one bad things like this Methodist holy club checklist, and I will fall short in some way of every single one. Examining all my failures will not help me one bit. Conversely, being content over areas where I have victory will also destroy me. This is what happens when we "examine" the wrong faith: our own. When we examine to see if we are in Jesus and He is in us, we discover the heart of the Lord is mercy. We discover rest from lists and the burden of keeping ourselves holy. We see that we are unconditionally accepted in the Beloved, and when we fail, God chastises us because we are His children and not "reprobates".

Yes, everyone in Christ knows where they fall short. The Holy Spirit convicts them of sin and righteousness at the personal level. It is a journey, a growing in grace. If you were to present this "list" to a baby Christian, you would cause them much harm and future discouragement. It will bring them to a spiritual crisis. This is exactly what happened to John Wesley when he came in contact with the Moravians. All his holy club self-examinations could do nothing for him. He needed to find the rest of the Son of God, which the Moravians had light on.

We must teach people to look only to Jesus and not to themselves, and once they learn how to rightly examine "the faith" of God's Son, they will no longer come under the condemnation and spiritual depression which comes from examining their own efforts.

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sermonindex

Hebrews 12:1-3
Therefore since we have so great a cloud of witnesses surrounding us, let us also lay aside every encumbrance and and the sin which so easily entangles us, and let us run with endurance the race that is set before us, FIXING OUR EYES ON JESUS, the author and perfecter of faith, who for the joy set before Him endured the cross, despising the shame, and has sat down at the right hand of the throne of God.

Brethren in the above imagery the writer is describing an ancient athlete, a runner. This athlete is preparing to run a race. Probably getting ready to run a marathon. The athlete will come in a long robe. He lays the robe aside. The athlete is buck naked. He is ready to run when the signal is given. You must understand ancient athletes did not hold to the same standards of modesty as we hold.

When the signal is given the athlete runs. His face is set before him. He is looking straight ahead. He has one goal in mind. His intent is to finish the race and cross the finish line. the athlete does not look to himself. He does not look side by side. He certainly does not look behind. He looks ahead. One goal in mind. To finish the race. To win the race. The athlete is looking ahead.

If we look to our check lists, whatever they may be. We either become self righteous. Or we become condemned. We lose focus of Jesus. Our focus should be on JESUS, always JESUS alone.

Paul reminds us in Romans 3:23 that all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God. One need not a checkist to realize this But John, the beloved disciple tells us in 1st John 3:3 that everyone who has this hope fixed on Him purified himself just as He is pure.

Brethren let us fix our eyes and hope on Jesus. For in Him alone there is no condemnation. For in Him alone there is freedom to live out His reality in our lives.

My thoughts.

Bearmaster

.......Caps are for emphasis only.......

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sermonindex

Brethren we see Paul as an example of that ancient athlete. If one reads Philippians 3 there is a vivid example of a man who lived by a checklist. Except his checklist was the law. Paul would say regarding righteousness as to the law he was blameless.

It was only when Paul was confronted with the righteousness of Jesus Christ that his own self righteousness was rubbish. Thus Paul goes on to declare his pressing in to know Jesus. He wanted the righteousness that only Jesus offered. His Perfect Righteousness.

Brethren let our example be as Paul. As he, so let us fix our eyes on Jesus.

Bearmaster

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Oracio

Okay, so I have some pros and cons I thought I’d share regarding the list. In favor of it I’d point out the fact that the Bible is filled with lists of virtues, and it is filled with exhortations to continually examine our walk with the Lord. Here are some examples:

"5 But also for this very reason, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue, to virtue knowledge, 6 to knowledge self-control, to self-control perseverance, to perseverance godliness, 7 to godliness brotherly kindness, and to brotherly kindness love. 8 For if these things are yours and abound, you will be neither barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. 9 For he who lacks these things is shortsighted, even to blindness, and has forgotten that he was cleansed from his old sins. 10 Therefore, brethren, be even more diligent to make your call and election sure, for if you do these things you will never stumble; 11 for so an entrance will be supplied to you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. 12 For this reason I will not be negligent to remind you always of these things, though you know and are established in the present truth.”-2Peter 1:5-12

"22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23 gentleness, self-control. Against such there is no law. 24 And those who are Christ's have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires. 25 If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit. 26 Let us not become conceited, provoking one another, envying one another.”-Galatians 5:22-26

I’d say the list in the OP seems very biblical.

That said, my reservation would be the fact that when this list was written John and Charles Wesley were not converted. The list was originally written around 1729 and they were converted in 1738. For many years John and Charles Wesley were strict in their devotion to "religion”. Their life during that time is a prime example of the fact that someone can be so devout in "Christianity” yet come short of true conversion.

I found these two brief articles to be helpful and insightful:

http://hopefaithprayer.com/john-wesley-holy-club-questions/

http://www.christianitytoday.com/ch/1990/issue28/2844.html?start=1

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sermonindex

I am very thankful for this thread and appreciate all the contributions but I think Paul and Oracio and Bearmaster have nailed the issue very accurately here. The key to this "list" is this:

"..this list was written when John and Charles Wesley were not converted. The list was originally written around 1729 and they were converted in 1738. For many years John and Charles Wesley were strict in their devotion to "religion”. Their life during that time is a prime example of the fact that someone can be so devout in "Christianity” yet come short of true conversion."

I for one am all for holy living, for what is the alternative? But where did all of John Wesleys efforts get him? In the end he had to admit that none of his works could save him, that it was Christ and Christ alone who could administer saving grace. Eventually Wesley joined in with the myriads before him in recognizing that Jesus did it all, it is not Christs work plus my work that saves, it is ALL of His work. It is finished.

So what use are lists like this? I am a lot older now, but in my younger days I would have been gung-ho about preaching self-examination and the keeping of such lists, but now I have learned the very hard way, that the only way I will ever measure up is by TRUSTING in Christ.

That in the end is the end of all things...that Christ and Christ alone is sufficient, my faith in Him is what saves, it is not faith in my works or even faith in what He is doing in me, but faith that Christ has PURCHASED me, with His blood, with His ransomed life and that and only that is what "measures me up".

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MrBillPro

The list is good, but most of us haven’t got a clue as to how far all of us fall short of God’s standards of perfection and holiness.

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sermonindex

Brethren we walk by faith and not by sight.

Bear

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sermonindex

Brethren we know we are saved by faith. But is our practical walk of obedience, holiness, etc. Is this also a walk of faith? Is this a walk of faith in Jesus?

Bear

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Heydave

I think we miss the point of this list if we dismiss it so quickly and disparagingly. Remember who were members of this club and what they went on to achieve in the Lord. John and Charles Wesley and George Whitfield...... yes Whitfield! So it was not a Methodist thing at that stage. If any of us is being used in the same measure as these three then maybe we have the right dismiss it, otherwise maybe we should consider how it may have been instrumental.

Yes I fail in most if not all points many times and so probably did Wesley and his companions. And yes this was before Wesley truely understood and experienced saving faith. But I don't see it as a list of laws to keep, but a good examination to keep us aware of some basic things we should be living. A bit like reading the scriptures, like Galatians 5 where the list of the works of the flesh and the fruit of the Spirit reveal to me under what power I am living. The word is a mirror by which we see our condition and make adjustments is it not? As Oracio has already pointed out there are many NT scriptures giving exhortations to do and not do things, but we don't dismiss those, but understand that we are not made righteous by any works. Same thing with this list I think!

Is it possible, nay probable that the reason that Wesley and Whitfield became the instruments in the hand of God they did was because they had set their hearts to seek and to obey God in those days, even though they may have had many blind spots. Hearts that are true and sincere God will not ignore, but will reveal Himself to. A broken and contrite heart God will not despise.

It seems to me that this generation who are so quick speak against such things and cry 'Grace! Grace! are just showing why we are so weak and ineffective compared to such heroes of the faith! We would rather debate such trivia such as cell phones etc.

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sermonindex

Paul, your thoughts and comments are full of wisdom, insight & grace.

Thank you

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sermonindex

Really appreciate all the input, brothers and sisters. Very good discussions and insights. It is good to stir one another up in the faith.
Like Oracio mentioned, many scriptures say the same things. Colossians 3 and 4 have the same kind of exhortations and admonitions as The List. Whether or not it was written before the Wesley's were born again shouldn't bother those who are born again.

Well, I guess a re-publican is just a re-peat of a publican, 'dolfan' and 'sidewalk'. :-)

L

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sermonindex

TWENTY TWO QUESTIONS

THE HOLY CLUB, TO WHICH JOHN WESLEY

BELONGED, ASKED THEMSELVES EACH DAY

AS A PART OF THEIR DAILY DEVOTIONS

1. AM I CONSCIOUSLY OR UNCONSCIOUSLY CREATING THE IMPRESSION THAT I AM BETTER THAN I REALLY AM? IN OTHER WORDS AM I A HYPOCRITE?

2. AM I HONEST IN ALL MY ACTS AND WORKS, OR DO I EXAGGERATE?

3. DO I CONFIDENTLY PASS ON TO ANOTHER WHAT WAS TOLD ME IN CONFIDENCE

4. CAN I BE TRUSTED?

5. AM I A SLAVE TO DRESS, FRIENDS, WORK OR HABIT?

6. AM I SELF CONSCIOUS, SELF PITYING OR SELF JUSTIFYING?

7. DID THE BIBLE LIVE IN ME TODAY?

8. DO I GIVE IT TIME TO SPEAK TO ME EVERDAY?

9. AM I ENJOYING PRAYER?

10. WHEN DID I LAST SPEAK TO SOMEONE ELSE ABOUT MY FAITH?

11. DO I PRAY ABOUT THE MONEY I SPEND?

12. DO I GO TO BED ON TIME AND GET UP ON TIME?

13. DO I DISOBEY GOD IN ANYTHING?

14. DO I INSIST UPON DOING SOMETHING ABOUT WHICH MY CONSCIENCE IS UNEASY?

15. AM I DEFEATED IN ANY PART OF MY LIFE?

16. AM I JEALOUS, IMPURE, CRITICAL, IRRITABLE, TOUCHY, OR DISTRUSTFUL?

17. HOW DO I SPEND MY SPARE TIME?

18. AM I PROUD?

19. DO I THANK GOD THAT I AM NOT AS OTHER PEOPLE, ESPECIALLY THE PHARISEE WHO DESPISED THE REPUBLICAN?

20. DO I GRUMBLE OR COMPLAIN CONSTANTLY?

21. IS THERE ANYONE WHO I FEAR, DISLIKE, DISOWN, CRITICIZE, HOLD A RESENTMENT TOWARD OR DISAGREE? IF SO WHAT AM I DOING ABOUT IT?

22. IS CHRIST REAL TO ME?

‘GIVE ME ONE HUNDRED PREACHERS WHO FEAR NOTHING BUT SIN, AND DESIRE NOTHING BUT GOD, AND I CARE NOT A STRAW WHETHER THEY BE CLERGYMEN OR LAYMEN; SUCH ALONE WILL SHAKE THE GATES OF HELL AND SET UP THE KINGDOM OF HEAVEN ON EARTH. GOD DOES NOTHING BUT IN ANSWER TO PRAYER’. JOHN WESLEY


Dear saints,

It is sad to hear the arguing about this.

We must rather look at this list and our lives and see a place where we can pray to the Lord to help us glorify Him more. That is not legalism but relationship with Jesus Christ to see Him beautiful in us.


AM I SELF CONSCIOUS, SELF PITYING OR SELF JUSTIFYING?


that struck me that I need to forget the SELF. Lord please help me to focus more on you and less on SELF.

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sermonindex

Whether or not it was written before the Wesley's were born again shouldn't bother those who are born again.

I would think it matters a great deal "when" their list was written. If it was written by religious men who were seeking to be saved by their works, were they not therefore asking themselves the question, "am I holy enough"? If they were not yet born again, it would seem that their devotions were flawed...and can it be argued that they were seeking to become holy by their own efforts?

If that is the case, how does this list have any more power in it to save our souls than a list created by a muslim or a member of a false cult?

If the light that Wesley and Whitfield had at the time was works based salvation (someone clarify if you know the answer) then perhaps we should be very careful looking unto lists such as this? As others have said, let us instead "look unto Jesus, the author and perfecter of our faith".

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Heydave

Awakenened, Who claimed this list had the power to save souls?!

If it were written by unsaved men, then it should shame us who claim to be saved! The fact that so many react against things like this is a sad indictment against the modern church.

I agree with the poster thst it is a valid thing to consider. If all we need to hear is "look unto Jesus", then why all the NT definitions about what Godly living looks like? Why all the preacing and teaching every Sunday?

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davidc

The list is good, but most of us haven’t got a clue as to how far all of us fall short of God’s standards of perfection and holiness. MrBillPro

But the scripture doesn't say we fall short of God's standard, but rather

For all have sinned and fallen short of the GLORY OF GOD

ONly Jesus has ascended into Glory. He is our true goal. Standards of perfection and holiness put us under the curse of the law.

Grace brings; in Christ, into sharing His Glory.

David

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a-servant

"Standards of perfection and holiness put us under the curse of the law."

sounds like a contemporary slogan that makes no sense whatsoever, but keeps you where you are right now,

only because you think higher standards put anyone under a curse, does not mean Jesus, Matt, Paul or John would agree:

Matthew 5:48  Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.

2 Corinthians 13:11  Finally, brethren, farewell. Be perfect, be of good comfort, be of one mind, live in peace; and the God of love and peace shall be with you.

Revelation 3:2  Be watchful, and strengthen the things which remain, that are ready to die: for I have not found thy works perfect before God.


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sermonindex

"..this list was written when John and Charles Wesley were not converted. The list was originally written around 1729 and they were converted in 1738. For many years John and Charles Wesley were strict in their devotion to "religion”. Their life during that time is a prime example of the fact that someone can be so devout in "Christianity” yet come short of true conversion."

I will only join in here to point out that the above statement is in fact false and the proof of it is in the great sermon that John preached at St. Mary's, Oxford, before the University, on January 1, 1733 and named "Circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter." from Romans 2:29.

Written 5 years before Aldesgate and during the time that John and his Holy Club were seeking the experience that he found there, and also known as the second blessing, hence the questionaire, he said,

"3. That "circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter;" -- that the distinguishing mark of a true follower of Christ, of one who is in a state of acceptance with God, is not either outward circumcision, or baptism, or any other outward form, but a right state of soul, a mind and spirit renewed after the image of Him that created it; -- is one of those important truths that can only be spiritually discerned. And this the Apostle himself intimates in the next words, -- "Whose praise is not of men, but of God." As if he had said, "Expect not, whoever thou art, who thus followest thy great Master, that the world, the one who follow him not, will say, `Well done, good and faithful servant!' Know that the circumcision of the heart, the seal of thy calling, is foolishness with the world. Be content to wait for thy applause till the day of thy Lord's appearing. In that day shalt thou have praise of God, in the great assembly of men and angels."

If the full sermon is read, one will see that it is not from a man who believes that good works makes a man righteous before God. He was indeed born of the Spirit when he preached this sermon and before Aldesgate, despite how others would like to alter history to fit in with their theology.

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TMK

When I read the list I make excuses for the ones I miss and pat myself on the back for the ones I "pass."

Both reactions are terrible, so now I have added to the list. Just being honest.

The HS must bring conviction; reading a list won't do it.

Do I trust the HS enough to convict me where I need to be convicted, especially if we pray that He will do so?

I agree with Paul- we don't examine ourselves to see if we have kept a certain checklist; we examine ourselves to see if Christ is in us, the hope of glory.

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MaryJane

Greetings

As I read over this list I find myself doing to things, first for each one that I did not struggle with today I give thanks unto HIM. It was and is only by HIS grace and mercy that I did not struggle in that area today.They are areas I have prayed about and HE has helped me to overcome! The second things I do is consider each area of my life that I did struggle with today and I pray. I seek HIM asking for help to over come, to walk by faith knowing HE is all that I need. Whether I am praise HIM for helping me overcome or seeking HIM to help me overcome I am reminded that each day I need to begin in prayer seeking HIM and relying only on HIM in all things...


"FATHER I pray as I look to YOU, search my heart. Help me to see the things in my life that are not of YOU. Help me to have a soft heart willing to die to self and to repent. LORD daily I walk and daily I might stumble but by YOUR grace and mercy there is forgiveness and hope. Through YOU I can over come this sin in my life because YOU give me all that I need. I have to stay close, I have to hold tight though because there will never be a moment or a day that goes by that I will not need YOU. LORD thank you for this reminder that the flesh is weak, but YOU are strong. Thank YOU for this reminder that YOU long to have me walk with YOU in all righteousness. In YOUR WORD YOU tell me, 13 "Therefore gird up the loins of your mind, be sober, and rest your hope fully upon the grace that is to be brought to you at the revelation of Jesus Christ; 14 as obedient children, not conforming yourselves to the former lusts, as in your ignorance; 15 but as He who called you is holy, you also be holy in all your conduct, 16 because it is written, "Be holy, for I am holy.”

I pray LORD let this be my heart every moment of every day to walk with YOU and submit my life unto YOU. YOU alone are so worthy and YOU alone are so capable to see me through to the end. Amen!"

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sermonindex

Then why not look to the Mormons. In terms of outward standards the Mormons would put many evangelicals to shame. The LDS have fine qualities of honesty, integrity, wholesomeness, family, etc.

The Mormons invest in their young people. They are certainly aggressive in spreading their beliefs. Of course the LDS system is false. But their outward conduct is superb.

Brethren a Mormon would probably take the 21 questions and pass with flying colors. Yet even Jesus said one's righteousness must surpass that of the Pharissees to be perfect. That is only the righteousness that Jesus can impart to change a heart.

Bearmaster

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MrBillPro

There are many things the list does not touch on, this is how you know it was a man made list, it's buffet style.
We are convicted by the spirit, Jesus said that when the Holy Spirit came He would convict of sin, and when the Holy Spirit rouses the conscience and brings him into the presence of God. It is not his relationship with men that bothers him, but his relationship with God.

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sermonindex

Well spoken, Bill.

Mr. Bear.

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Heydave

Bear, Shame on you for making that comparrison with the Mormons. You are showing your ignorance for who these folk were in the Holy club and has been pointed out there is good evidence that Wesley did understand justification by faith at that time. Also he was just one of that number. Whitfield for example definitely was born of the Spirit at that time.

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sermonindex

Well, Brother Blaine, that was the perfect lead in for me since I grew up in the Mormon church, a false religion albeit one that held the 10 commandments in honor. If I had read that list in 1974 as a young woman who was in denial,that list would have convicted me like the law. I probably would have thrown it away and cursed God because I had been faking righteousness for so long finally giving up.

But because the Lord brought me into contact with true believers who knew Christ our Lord I finally admitted that I was a sinner who did not know God. That was nearly 40 years ago. Once I was young and now am old, dear brother.

That list now can inspire me to move on to higher ground. 'Self examination' to see if I am still walking in the faith does not intimidate nor scare me NOR condemn me (if I'm thinking like Christ and listening to the Holy Spirit.)

That list, like the Word, is only a mirror to check on things I've let slip because of sin or sloth. I know that in Christ all things are possible and like the beautiful prayer Mary Ann just wrote out, that is the way I can pray now. And as Dave said, this is not how to be saved, that alone is through Jesus Christ and his sacrifice on the cross once and for all.

I really want to thank all of you because when we come together, even in disagreement, I see how the Body of Christ is like iron sharpening iron. There was a great love that I just got a minor glimpse of because of this little "community" of believers who log on to sermonindex.

And I thank God for Greg, for his obedience to our Lord, for so long being vigilant to keep this site open. For being humble and kind as moderator, and all who are involved in encouraging and admonishing and listening an sharing. How often I've been blessed by something someone posts here, or been warned of things I might never have gotten wind of in any other way.

Who knows how many have been built up and encouraged not just by the legacy and preservation of past saints sermons, but by the connection of saints who love our Lord.Wow, I am encouraged because it must be like getting a letter from Paul the Apostle in the old days. We know we are not alone in our walk.

May the Lord bless you and keep you all this day!

In His Love,
Leslie

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sermonindex

Dear Sister our practical righteousness must stem from the inward life of Jesus abiding in us and we in Him as seen in John 15:1-11. This is why Paul says 1 Cor. 1:30 that by His doing we are in Christ Jesus who us our wisdom and righteousness and sanctification and redemption.

Jesus tells us in Mat. 5:20 that if our righteousness does not surpass that of the Pharisees or Mormon or Wesley or Whitfield we will not enter the kingdom of God. But the righteousness He speaks of is an internal righteousness that only the Spirit can work in our hearts. That internal righteousness as found in the fruit of the Spirit in Gal. 5:22-24.

Dear sister I urge you and others to read Galatians. There Paul opens up the mind of Jesus to show how we can truly live Christ centered holy lives as unto Him by the Spirit.

For truly His desire for our holiness is an inward work of His Spirit in our hearts.

In His Love,

Blaine :-)

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Heydave

Interesting! Someone posted a list of things that were used for personal examination as a help in their walk with the Lord. Some folk here see that as an encouragement to draw them closer in loving obedience to their Lord. Others see it as a threat and condemnation. What does that reveal about our hearts?

Over many years I have heard Christian's protest "I'm not under law, but under grace" whenever it is suggested that we need to walk in righteousness. Often the case has been that it was a cover for doing what they wanted to do in disobedience to God.

Yes Galatians 5 is very good passage. What was Paul thinking of when he made lists of acts of the flesh and saying that if we live like that we will die? Then shows a list of the fruit of the Spirit! Whoa Paul, folk might take this the wrong way and think we should work for righteousness! You better take this part out Paul. Just tell them to walk in the Spirit and leave it at that! Oh I see, you think they need to understand what walking in the Spirit looks like, a bit like what John wrote in his letter.

O
Oracio

I will only join in here to point out that the above statement is in fact false and the proof of it is in the great sermon that John preached at St. Mary's, Oxford, before the University, on January 1, 1733 and named "Circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter." from Romans 2:29.

Written 5 years before Aldesgate and during the time that John and his Holy Club were seeking the experience that he found there, and also known as the second blessing, hence the questionaire, he said,

"3. That "circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter;" -- that the distinguishing mark of a true follower of Christ, of one who is in a state of acceptance with God, is not either outward circumcision, or baptism, or any other outward form, but a right state of soul, a mind and spirit renewed after the image of Him that created it; -- is one of those important truths that can only be spiritually discerned. And this the Apostle himself intimates in the next words, -- "Whose praise is not of men, but of God." As if he had said, "Expect not, whoever thou art, who thus followest thy great Master, that the world, the one who follow him not, will say, `Well done, good and faithful servant!' Know that the circumcision of the heart, the seal of thy calling, is foolishness with the world. Be content to wait for thy applause till the day of thy Lord's appearing. In that day shalt thou have praise of God, in the great assembly of men and angels."

If the full sermon is read, one will see that it is not from a man who believes that good works makes a man righteous before God. He was indeed born of the Spirit when he preached this sermon and before Aldesgate, despite how others would like to alter history to fit in with their theology.

Actually, it is the above comments that are false. George Whitefield was the first of the three to experience the new birth in 1735, then the Wesley's experienced it in 1738. The Wesley's sailed to America in 1735 on a missionary trip and after they came back in 1738 John Wesley wrote, "I went to America to convert the Indians; but, oh, who shall convert me?”

Here's a portion of one of the articles I shared the link to:

"The answer to his question came shortly after his return from America. Both he and Charles were influenced by Moravian friends who bore witness to salvation by grace through faith in Christ.

Charles Wesley was the first of the two to be justified by faith, and on Whitsunday, May 21, 1738, he experienced Pentecost. He wrote in his journal that the Spirit of God "chased away the darkness of my unbelief.” The prolific hymnist (eventually he wrote six to seven-thousand hymns) wrote a hymn to commemorate his day of salvation. While scholars debate which of three possibilities was this conversion hymn, one likely candidate is the hymn that asks, "And can it be that I should gain an interest in the Saviour’s blood?” The last verse triumphantly proclaims:

No condemnation now I dread,
Jesus, and all in Him, is mine:
Alive in Him, my living Head,
And clothed in righteousness Divine,
Bold I approach th’ eternal throne,
And claim the crown, through Christ, my own.

Three days later, on May 24, 1738, John’s seeking for the grace of God ended in a meeting house on Aldersgate Street in London. He wrote in his journal that now-famous account of his conversion: "In the evening I went very unwillingly to a society in Aldersgate Street, where one was reading Luther’s preface to the Epistle to the Romans. About a quarter before nine, while he was describing the change which God works in the heart through faith in Christ, I felt my heart strangely warmed.”

John immediately shared the good news with Charles. Charles wrote that "Towards ten, my brother was brought in triumph by a troop of our friends, and declared, ‘I believe.’ We sang the hymn with great joy, and parted with prayer.”

Until their conversions the Wesleys had what John described as "a fair summer religion.” They were both ordained. They both preached, taught, wrote, composed hymns, and even gave themselves to missionary work””all to no avail. They had not Christ, or rather, Christ did not have them. They lived by good works, but not by faith."

Here's a more thorough account of John Wesley's conversion from his own journal:

http://www.ccel.org/ccel/wesley/journal.vi.ii.xvi.html

John Wesley had been struggling deeply with assurance of salvation and justification by faith and came to the place where he knew he did not have it and almost entirely gave up on the ministry.

This list was indeed written when the three of them were unconverted. But Wesley did publish more lists like this afterward as late as 1781.

With all due respect, upon further examination, there are some of the points in the list which sound to me like they are written by someone unconverted and not someone who truly knows the Lord.

As far as that portion of Wesley's sermon, there is nothing in it that hints of justification by faith. He speaks of an inward work of the Spirit, as many sinless perfectionists also speak of. But they have no assurance of salvation because they see their inward imperfections and fail to look to Christ and His shed blood for justification by faith.

I don't have a problem per se with lists of virtues for us to ponder. I believe many Christians are opposed to any type of self-examination because of so much watered down preaching these days. Many of us are just so used to living in defeat and we justify our lukewarmness and remain babes in Christ for all our lives. I'm guilty and do not want to stay that way. I want to grow in the grace and knowledge of our Lord, I want to grow in holiness, into maturity in Christ. It is by faith in Christ and through His Word and Spirit that we will grow.

I believe there is a balance with this topic which we must strive to keep. Yes, there is rest in Christ from our own works, there is assurance in Christ by faith in His blood, there is joy and peace in believing. But there is also a striving for perfection and holiness in the fear of God, a working out of our salvation with fear and trembling, a constant need to watch and pray lest we fall into temptation, a constant need to be broken over our sins and confess and forsake them.

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sermonindex

"I went to America to convert the Indians; but, oh, who shall convert me?”

I believe that the confusion is due to Wesley considering the second blessing to be full salvation. The earlier stage he called the 'almost Christian'.

Indeed he did have struggles during this period. as do others prior to the second blessing.

With all due respect, upon further examination, there are some of the points in the list which sound to me like they are written by someone unconverted and not someone who truly knows the Lord.

Please show them.

P
PaulWest

George Whitefield was the first of the three to experience the new birth in 1735, then the Wesley's experienced it in 1738.

Dear brother, I am so glad you mentioned Whitefield, the original Methodist. George Whitefield, my hero, was probably the most religiously assiduous of all the Holy Club members at the time. He was considered the most zealous, the most devoted, the most self-scrutinizing in following lists like these. In fact, he probably co-wrote most of these. He ended up having an emotional breakdown. He became so depressed that the students at Oxford thought he went insane. He had to be bedridden for seven weeks. It was during this convalescence, caused by improper "self-examining", where he finally surrendered to Jesus Christ and became born-again.

Of course, the rest is history ;) God went on to use this dear brother in ways that would quake the earth. One common thing you find in his open-air sermons (and I've read through dozens of them), is how wretched he considered himself if not for the grace of God. He saw himself as the chief of sinners, like Paul. This was a conviction he held up to his dying day.

The true Christian who has experienced true grace loathes sin. He is acquainted with every jot and tittle of his own wretchedness. He does not need a list to show him where he falls short of God's glory. I know I could be more patient, because Jesus lives in me and He is more patient. I know I could be more giving, because Jesus lives in me and He is more giving. I know I could be more humble, because Jesus live in me in He is more humble. I know I could be more punctual, because Jesus lives in me and He is more punctual. I know I could be more honest, because Jesus lives in me and He is more honest, etc. I do not need a list; I have the Holy Spirit.

By doing away with the list, we do not advocate a listless (aka lawless) lifestyle where godless debauchery rules the roost. That is a fallacy Christians who do not understand New Covenant grace love to use. No, when you lose the list, the moral standard of of your life is actually increased because lists like this can only address the "outside" doings, whereas grace remedies the "inside" corruption that brings a man to act out the points on lists. None of the things on this list will have dominion over the man or woman who is under grace. This does not mean he or she will not fall short from time to time in most, if not all, of these (for as grace increases, so do the tests), but they will not have mastery over the soul. They can be overcome through grace. True grace will usher a person into a lifestyle and fellowship with God in holiness that no self-examining list could ever dream of accomplishing!

This is why guys like John and Charles Wesley and George Whitefield all had breakdowns. They were trying to cork a volcanic eruption instead of dealing with the rising magma beneath the surface. Eventually, the volcano is going to explode and lava is going to get everywhere. For John Wesley, this happened during a storm in the middle of the Atlantic Ocean.

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PaulWest

I believe that the confusion is due to Wesley considering the second blessing to be full salvation. The earlier stage he called the 'almost Christian'.

Indeed he did have struggles during this period. as do others prior to the second blessing.


Welcome back to the forums, Brenda. I would ask you to not steer this into a second blessing topic. Thank you.

O
Oracio

Please show them.

Okay, I'll point out two.
1. AM I CONSCIOUSLY OR UNCONSCIOUSLY CREATING THE IMPRESSION THAT I AM BETTER THAN I REALLY AM? IN OTHER WORDS AM I A HYPOCRITE?

I'm not sure I really understand that one. If you claim to be a Christian, in one sense you're either counted with the hypocrites or you're soundly saved. If you are a hypocrite you will live a life characterized by continuous and unrestrained hypocrisy. But if you are a true believer there will still remain sin to a certain degree and when you sin you will be committing hypocrisy in that instant. The question to me doesn't sound that biblical.
17. HOW DO I SPEND MY SPARE TIME?

I believe a question like that has the potential of producing legalism. Legalism says there is no place for recreation in the life of the believer.

Again, I don't have a problem with lists as long as they are biblical and are written by believers. To reason about the validity of such lists, I'll give an example from the Scriptures. Let's take for example some of the fruit of the Spirit.

1. Love
Do I love God above all else and show it in my daily life? Or do I have any idols? Do I love others and show it with my actions and not just my words?

2. Joy
Do I experience and express the joy of the Lord as my strength daily? Or do I live in constant sadness or depression?

3. Peace
Do I experience daily the peace of God that surpasses all understanding? Or do I get too worried about the cares of this life? Do the cares of this life choke out God's Word in my heart and mind?

And we can go on with the rest of the list.

It can be argued that God gave us such lists for us to meditate on and ponder on each virtue and examine ourselves as to how we're doing in those areas. That's how God's Word works in our minds and hearts. Like brother Paul West pointed out regarding lists, God's Word is like a mirror by which we examine our lives.

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sermonindex

I really appreciate this discussion and hearing the views that others bring from different angles. I believe that in general there is great encouragement to be gained from reading biographies about what God has done through the lives of other believers. But lets give credit where this is due...to God! These things are the work of the Holy Spirit, not the result of mens efforts. There is a reason why we fall into sloppy living or lose interest in religion or prayer or other things and it is usually because we have lost something of the grace and presence of the Holy Spirit in our lives. But God promises us that if we recognize this and humble ourselves and seek His face, He will revive us again!

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sermonindex

Thank you Paul West. Perhaps l can ask anyone then, concerning the profound experience John Wesley had, at Aldersgate, whatever we would like to call it, and l will avoid the name l use for it as requested, how could a man who believed in a works salvation know the difference, and preach it, between an inward and an outward religion?

What would be such a man's understanding of a circumcised heart?

O
Oracio

Perhaps l can ask anyone then, concerning the profound experience John Wesley had, at Aldersgate, whatever we would like to call it, and l will avoid the name l use for it as requested, how could a man who believed in a works salvation know the difference, and preach it, between an inward and an outward religion?
I think I've read up on John Wesley and George Whitefield enough in the past to know that they lived for many years in a state of false conversion. All the documented evidence points to this as fact unless you try to fit John Wesley into your sinless perfection theology. We know that someone can be ordained as a minister and minister for many years and not be converted. There are countless testimonies like that.
What would be such a man's understanding of a circumcised heart?

Someone who is unconverted may acknowledge the need for inward holiness. They may acknowledge God's standard of perfection in thought, word and deed. They may strive to achieve such a perfection in their own strength without God and fail for years on end. That was the case with Whitefield and the Wesley brothers until they gave up looking to themselves and their performances for salvation and began looking unto Jesus by God's grace alone, through faith alone, in Christ alone.

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sermonindex

John 15:4--5
Abide in me and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself unless it abides in the vine so neither can you unless you abide to Me. I am the vine, you are the branches; he who abides in Me and I in him he bears much fruit, for apart from me you can do nothing.

Brethren I heard someone say regarding the above verses that we become so focused on our fruit bearing that we lose close proximity to Jesus. This is what will happen if we keep our checklist. We will become so focused on whether we have met the demands of the list that we lose sight of Jesus.

The virtues of a Christ centered life that are listed in the New Testament flow out of a life of Christ lived out in us. This is the fruit that flows out of John 15.

The characteristics that are listed in the New Testament for a believer to exhibit as a result of the Spirit being in us are descriptive. They are not meant to be a check list of seeing how far one has or has not excelled in Christ.

I have heard it said that the walk of the Christian is "being in Christ" as opposed to "doing for Christ". The more I reflect on this I see this as more a New Testament reality. Thus our emphasis should be in being in Christ and He be in us. For this is truly what John 15 articulates. Thus us New Covenant living.

Lateky I have been thinking about the indwelling presence of Christ. His presence living in us. Brother Edgar brought a message about Christ living in us on last Monday night call. Very encouraging. His testimony was a tribute to the indwelling presence of Christ who helped him overcome the power of sin. That same reality is available for us today.

In commenting on 1 John 1:9 Charles Stanley observed that the blood of Jesus cleanses us from the penalty of sin. But the person of Jesus living inside of us helps us overcome the power of sin.

Brothers and Sisters if we can lay hold of this glorious truth. The truth of the indwelling presence of Christ living in us. Checklist will be irrelevant.

Bearmaster.

O
Oracio

The characteristics that are listed in the New Testament for a believer to exhibit as a result of the Spirit being in us are descriptive. They are not meant to be a check list of seeing how far one has or has not excelled in Christ.

My brother, If we look carefully at the context of Galatians 5 we will see that both the works of the flesh and the fruit of the Spirit are not only descriptive but also prescriptive exhortations for us. If we apply your statement to the rest of lists of exhortations given in God's Word we will shortchange God's Word and shortchange ourselves from it's full meaning and application to our lives.

There are so many lists of exhortations in God's Word that call for us to examine our walk in specific areas of Christian living. Unfortunately, I don't have the time right now to post some of those Scriptures and other thoughts on the reason God gives those types of lists of exhortations and why He is so specific.

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sermonindex

Galatians 5:23-23
But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness gentleness, self -control; against such things there is no law.

Oratio, dear brother how do you quantify the above fruit. If you reviewed this list every.morning how wound you determine how much love you had? Or if you had enough love. Or if your self control was adequate for that day?

Brother to quantify or examine ourselves against such list looses are focus on Christ and His presence in us.

As was pointed out earlier in this thread the test should be if Christ be found in us as Paul directs us in 2 Cor. 13:5. If He be in us and we be in Him then the fruit will be there. Again John 15:4-5 states so beautifully. But again the issue is Christ being in us and we being in Him.

If the three is good then the fruit will be good. If the three is bad then the fruit will be bad. If Christ be in us. Then we will bear His good fruit.

My thoughts.

Bear

A
a-servant

Oracio: "There are so many lists of exhortations in God's Word that call for us to examine our walk in specific areas of Christian living."

yes there are, and some here compare that looking to Mormon standards, and others between the lines signal their believe that would be a condemanation and of the law. Why is that?

Likely because their spirit cannot receive any instructions. Not even from God. The nice words to try to hide that fact are just fillers to keep the religious spirit going, however everyone not spiritually dead can see through them.

There is this little kid in a old man's body that does not want to grow up, but insists that what he does is not harmful to him, and in his mind insists that hinting at the fact that it will kill him is bringing him under condemnation.

Heydave: "Interesting! Someone posted a list of things that were used for personal examination as a help in their walk with the Lord. Some folk here see that as an encouragement to draw them closer in loving obedience to their Lord. Others see it as a threat and condemnation. What does that reveal about our hearts?"

Some really hard stony hearts that proclaim: "everyone that insists that certain practises lead to death is a obviously man under law speaking condemanation". It's the grace-mantra of the lawless. We excuse Paul in that regard because he was an apostle, but we do not mention, discuss or regard his instructions on points we do not agree on, because clearly they sound like condemnations and are not compatible with how 'we here' understand grace. It's a private understanding, just to be clear , and is not valid now, will not be valid in the future, in fact it will be forgotten in a few years from now, and heaven will rejoice at that time.

Rev 18:20  Rejoice over her, thou heaven, and ye holy apostles and prophets; for God hath avenged you on her.

O
Oracio

Galatians 5:23-23
But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness gentleness, self -control; against such things there is no law.

Oratio, dear brother how do you quantify the above fruit. If you reviewed this list every.morning how wound you determine how much love you had? Or if you had enough love. Or if your self control was adequate for that day?

Brother to quantify or examine ourselves against such list looses are focus on Christ and His presence in us.


Brother, I'll post Galatians 5:13-26 so we can see a fuller context of the passage.
"For you, brethren, have been called to liberty; only do not use liberty as an opportunity for the flesh, but through love serve one another. 14 For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this: "You shall love your neighbor as yourself." 15 But if you bite and devour one another, beware lest you be consumed by one another! 16 I say then: Walk in the Spirit, and you shall not fulfill the lust of the flesh. 17 For the flesh lusts against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh; and these are contrary to one another, so that you do not do the things that you wish. 18 But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law. 19 Now the works of the flesh are evident, which are: adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lewdness, 20 idolatry, sorcery, hatred, contentions, jealousies, outbursts of wrath, selfish ambitions, dissensions, heresies, 21 envy, murders, drunkenness, revelries, and the like; of which I tell you beforehand, just as I also told you in time past, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God. 22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23 gentleness, self-control. Against such there is no law. 24 And those who are Christ's have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires. 25 If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit. 26 Let us not become conceited, provoking one another, envying one another."

Now again, if we honestly exegete the passage verse by verse and seek to apply it to our lives I believe we can see the need to confess and forsake any works of the flesh God may point out through this passage and the need to seek the Lord for the grace to produce each of His fruit. David said, "Search me, O God, and know my heart; Try me, and know my anxieties; And see if there is any wicked way in me, And lead me in the way everlasting."-Psalm 139:23-24

But I'll share another passage that has a list of exhortations, and tell me if this is simply descriptive and not also exhortative.

Therefore be imitators of God as dear children. 2 And walk in love, as Christ also has loved us and given Himself for us, an offering and a sacrifice to God for a sweet-smelling aroma. 3 But fornication and all uncleanness or covetousness, let it not even be named among you, as is fitting for saints; 4 neither filthiness, nor foolish talking, nor coarse jesting, which are not fitting, but rather giving of thanks. 5 For this you know, that no fornicator, unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, has any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and God. 6 Let no one deceive you with empty words, for because of these things the wrath of God comes upon the sons of disobedience. 7 Therefore do not be partakers with them. 8 For you were once darkness, but now you are light in the Lord. Walk as children of light 9 (for the fruit of the Spirit is in all goodness, righteousness, and truth), 10 finding out what is acceptable to the Lord. 11 And have no fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness, but rather expose them. 12 For it is shameful even to speak of those things which are done by them in secret. 13 But all things that are exposed are made manifest by the light, for whatever makes manifest is light. 14 Therefore He says: "Awake, you who sleep, Arise from the dead, And Christ will give you light." 15 See then that you walk circumspectly, not as fools but as wise, 16 redeeming the time, because the days are evil. 17 Therefore do not be unwise, but understand what the will of the Lord is. 18 And do not be drunk with wine, in which is dissipation; but be filled with the Spirit, 19 speaking to one another in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing and making melody in your heart to the Lord, 20 giving thanks always for all things to God the Father in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, 21 submitting to one another in the fear of God. 22 Wives, submit to your own husbands, as to the Lord. 23 For the husband is head of the wife, as also Christ is head of the church; and He is the Savior of the body. 24 Therefore, just as the church is subject to Christ, so let the wives be to their own husbands in everything. 25 Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ also loved the church and gave Himself for her, 26 that He might sanctify and cleanse her with the washing of water by the word, 27 that He might present her to Himself a glorious church, not having spot or wrinkle or any such thing, but that she should be holy and without blemish. 28 So husbands ought to love their own wives as their own bodies; he who loves his wife loves himself. 29 For no one ever hated his own flesh, but nourishes and cherishes it, just as the Lord does the church. 30 For we are members of His body, of His flesh and of His bones. 31 "For this reason a man shall leave his father and mother and be joined to his wife, and the two shall become one flesh." 32 This is a great mystery, but I speak concerning Christ and the church. 33 Nevertheless let each one of you in particular so love his own wife as himself, and let the wife see that she respects her husband.-Ephesians 5

Brother bear and brethren, this is where meditation on God's Word is essential, not just reading and rushing through large portions of it each year. As we slowly chew on each verse the Lord is faithful to point out areas we need to bring before Him and seek His mercy and grace for. He knows we all have thick heads and need constant reminders and specific instructions in each area. He did not give us so many detailed instructions and exhortations for us to just say in the end, "It's all Christ in me and that's it, no need to consider any specifics."

There is indeed a certain type of prevalent mindset in Christendom these days that cries out, "Grace, grace!" whenever someone shares certain types of exhortations from God's Word. But the Word of God is clear about this need to be watchful. But yes, we do also have to be careful with legalism because that too is a serious danger these days that many fall prey to. May the Lord continue to teach us all His ways through His Word.

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sermonindex

Oracio wrote

We know that someone can be ordained as a minister and minister for many years and not be converted. There are countless testimonies like that.

Indeed so, but Wesley's life history is not that of a man who was unsaved without knowledge of the gospel of salvation by faith. By his own account, in 1725, he read Bishop Taylors 'Rule and Exercises of Holy Living and Dying' and here it seems he was introduced to the doctrine of holiness. He was convicted by the writing and said that he resolved to dedicate ALL of his life to God, that every part of his life (not some only) must either be a sacrifice to God or to himself, and thereby the devil. This is common to many in their Christian walk that there is an area that they have not submitted. From 1725 Wesley was devoted to teaching the doctrine and running the Holy Club for the goal of achieving that of which he was yearning, and preaching it to others.

In 1726, he read Kempis' 'Christian Pattern', note another book on sanctification, then a few years later, William Law's 'Christian Perfection' a well known and respected teacher of holiness doctrine. He says that he saw the impossibility of being half a Christian. Some say that they are convicted that they are only 'playing at' being a Christian especially when comparing themselves with the Apostles and other believers of note.The questionaire was produced to have that effect on men and to make them seek to show forth holiness.

After 1729 he really began to study the Bible earnestly and realised that he must have the mind of Christ. In 1733 he preached on 'Circumcision of the Heart' (holiness) 1735, he went to America then as we know, in 1738 he had his Aldersgate experience.

If we carefully read his sermon 'Circumcision' there is no doubt that he is saved. The time he took from first hearing of the requirement of holiness to the time when he attended Aldersgate was 13 years in fact, is typical of the pattern in others of the same ilk. During this time the Holy Spirit was doing His work in John, stripping him of all confidence in himself, and building up a longing in him to lead to the crisis when he could launch himself without reservation into the arms of the Saviour for the implantation of a new heart which will enable him to be freed from the power and presence of sin.

They may strive to achieve such a perfection in their own strength without God and fail for years on end. That was the case with Whitefield and the Wesley brothers until they gave up looking to themselves and their performances for salvation and began looking unto Jesus by God's grace alone, through faith alone, in Christ alone.

Indeed yes, believers do strive for years but in their own strength, that is the ones who have not settled in their 'lees' which unfortunately is only too common especially today. Much preaching is in the 'try harder' vein and amounts to nothing more than legalism. It is only through the power of the Holy Spirit that man can be holy and John had already learnt that and sought it as history shows until he found it.

I will quote again the sermon in question although reading any of his during his pre Aldersgate experience will show that it was not a man unaware of the true gospel, preaching in such a manner.

"3. That "circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter;" -- that the distinguishing mark of a true follower of Christ, of one who is in a state of acceptance with God, is not either outward circumcision, or baptism, or any other outward form, but *a right state of soul, a mind and spirit renewed after the image of Him that created it;* -- is one of those important truths that can only be spiritually discerned. And this the Apostle himself intimates in the next words, -- *"Whose praise is not of men, but of God."* As if he had said, "Expect not, whoever thou art, who thus followest thy great Master, that the world, the one who follow him not, will say, `Well done, good and faithful servant!' Know that the circumcision of the heart, the seal of thy calling, is foolishness with the world. Be content to wait for thy applause till the day of thy Lord's appearing. In that day shalt thou have praise of God, in the great assembly of men and angels."

Again he says *a right state of soul, a mind and spirit renewed after the image of Him that created it;* and *"Whose praise is not of men, but of God."* showing that he preached the new birth which is a work performed by God alone.

You have accused me of altering history to enable my own theology but I maintain that it is you instead who is doing so. You have not yet shown any evidence that John was an unsaved man either in his sermons or his reading habits.

T
TMK

quote: "But I'll share another passage that has a list of exhortations, and tell me if this is simply descriptive and not also exhortative."

No one here (at least not me) is saying that as true Christians our lives should not be evidencing the fruits of the Spirit as listed by Paul, nor are we saying that our lives should not look like the good stuff Paul lists in Gal. 5. Conversely, our lives should not have the bad junk that Paul lists in Gal. 5 IF we are true Christians.

The issue on the table is how do we get there. Do we do it by reading a checklist of every good thing we could be doing and beat ourselves up in those areas where we fail?

Or do we do it by cultivating a deep and submissive relationship with our Lord and master Jesus Christ, who will live through us if only we allow Him to do so?

True Christianity is not a matter of DOING. It is a matter of BEING. If I am looking at a list I am not looking at Jesus. If I am striving in self-effort I am not resting in the Lord.

In other words, if we are living true Biblical Christianity, we don't need to consult a list. We ARE the list. To the extent I am NOT the list is evidence that I have not yielded fully to the Master.

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1. AM I CONSCIOUSLY OR UNCONSCIOUSLY CREATING THE IMPRESSION THAT I AM BETTER THAN I REALLY AM? IN OTHER WORDS AM I A HYPOCRITE? I'm not sure I really understand that one. If you claim to be a Christian, in one sense you're either counted with the hypocrites or you're soundly saved. If you are a hypocrite you will live a life characterized by continuous and unrestrained hypocrisy. But if you are a true believer there will still remain sin to a certain degree and when you sin you will be committing hypocrisy in that instant. The question to me doesn't sound that biblical.

It is directed to those who in all likelihood are fooling themselves and are not seeing their sins whereas others see them clearly, or even trying to be what they are not like acting so nice on a Sunday and shouting at their wives and kids when they get home. Many believers are guilty of this and it is easy to go down the slippery slope in thinking that we are forgiven so its okay. It is deep in our nature to think like this.

O
Oracio

I think some of us have been talking past each other here and I think I know at least in part the reason.

After sister Leslie opened up this thread some starting seeing it as promoting and certain type of "check list" mentality where one goes through a list and checks off things they have done and beats themselves for things they haven't done. I think that has been an unfair and false accusation to bring on this thread. No one is vying for that type of mentality regarding lists of exhortations. The thing that has been encouraged is meditation and reflection on biblical principles from God's Word. Asking the Lord to search our hearts and lives based on His Word. But many see that as condemnation and having a "check-list" mentality. I think it shows how little we value the many exhortations from His Word.

No one is saying we grow in our own strength apart from Christ. We know it's about Christ in us the hope of glory. But His Word is very specific and He would have us reflect on our lives and to be honest with Him and with ourselves.

In other words, if we are living true Biblical Christianity, we don't need to consult a list. We ARE the list. To the extent I am NOT the list is evidence that I have not yielded fully to the Master.

But God's Word is our guide to true godliness-2Tim.3:16. We become Christlike by meditating on His Word and allowing it to search the deepest parts of our inner being.

If we carefully read his sermon 'Circumcision' there is no doubt that he is saved.

Brenda, Wesley himself said he wasn't yet saved until 1738, but you want to try to prove otherwise to support your sinless perfectionism. I think I'll rather believe the man himself. We've gone through this issue quite a bit in the past on this forum and I don't want to start again on this thread. Thank you.

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ZekeO

The only self examination that is worth its salt is that which strips every last vestige away of self righteousness(works of the flesh). Nothing else.

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Psalm 139:23-24
Search me, O God, and know heart.
Try me and know My anxious thoughts.
And see if there be any hurtful way in.me,
And lead me in the everlasting way.

John 14:8-11
And He, when He comes, will convict the world concerning sin and righteousness and judgement; concerning sin, because they do not believe in Me; concerning righteousness, because I go to the Father and you know longer see me; and concerning judgement, because the ruler of this world has been judged.

Brethren in.light of scripture above God is the one who must examine our hearts. Even taking a check list of whatever it may be we are going to come up deceived. Jeremiah reminds us our heart is deceitful and wicked who can understand it.

Ultimately it is the work of the Holy Spirit who must examine our hearts. As He convicts us of where we fall short them we confess our sins, be cleaned in His blood, yield the throne of our lives to Christ and move on on our relationship to Him.

Bearmastet

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Oracio

That's fine l will say no more apart to comment that you are refusing to look at the evidence when your interpretation of the term saved may not be the same as his, or perhaps the texts are corrupted but that's your choice. I could never be so sure in the face of such contradiction.

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sermonindex

2 Cor. 13:5
Test yourselves to see if you are in the faith; examine yourselves! Or do you not recognize this about yourselves, that Jesus Christ is in you---unless you fail the test.

Earlier in this thread brother Paul West gave marvelous insights into the above verse. What is the Apostle Paul calling us to test? What is he calling us to examine? Is he calling us to look at a check list to see where we have measured up?

The Apostle Paul is urging his hearers to test and examine if Christ in His Spirit be in us. Are we in Christ and He be in us.

Brethren the test is relationship to Jesus and not a religious observance to a check list.

I believe TMK summed it up when he said in his post if Christ be in us and we be in Him then we are the list. We are living out the reality and the virtues of Jesus by His indwelling presence in us.

If the Law of Moses be the ultimate check list Paul tells us in Rom. 8:4 that the requirement if the law is already fulfilled in us who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit.

In Heb. 8:10 the Spirit writes His laws on our minds and hearts in relationship to the Father. So again saints it is relationship to God we are called to by the inward work of the Spirit in our hearts.

The New Testament is our guide of how to live in the New Covenant. But it is internalized by the work of the Holy Spirit writing it in our hearts.

Bearmaster :-)

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Oracio

I think another problem is that when it comes to the Christian life and God's Word, some of us subconsciously make things out to be extremely mystical or more complicated than they are, when in reality they are more practical and down to earth than we may realize.

I’ll put it another way. There is no doubt that there is definitely a spiritual and supernatural element to God’s Word and the Christian life and only those who are born again can truly understand them. But for those who are born of the Spirit God’s Word is very practical and not as extremely mystical as we may be accustomed to thinking.

I’ll give another example of how God’s Word exhorts us in specific and practical ways. Ephesians 5:8-9 says, "For you were once darkness, but now you are light in the Lord. Walk as children of light (for the fruit of the Spirit is in all goodness, righteousness, and truth).”

So let’s think about some of that for a minute. Paul exhorts us to walk in the Light, and then gives us virtues as examples of what walking in the light looks like. The first is goodness, then righteousness, then truth. Again, if we are going through this passage slowly and come to each of those three virtues God may point out something amiss in us through the conviction of the Holy Spirit. This is where things get practical and down to earth. Paul lists those virtues not simply as descriptive but also prescriptive, as a challenge for us.

Now, there are different ways we can approach this. We can approach it with a "check list” mentality and deceive ourselves, or we can approach it with sensitivity to the conviction of God’s Spirit. All we’re saying is that the latter is what we should apply to our walk and not be so quick to dismiss the conviction of the Spirit.

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sermonindex

There seems to be at least three or four parallel threads going on here from what I can tell.

First, the original post was addressing self examination from a "self-discipline" point of view. This is well and good and is scriptural. I don't believe that the OP or others intended the list to be a formula to follow to save ourselves. But even on that note I believe there must be caution in following the examples of men as we disciple our lives in our pursuit of godliness. The reason is that in keeping tabs on our progress, this almost always leads to pride which leads to looking down on others who have not as yet attained to our lofty level of holiness. I can read some of this spirit in some of the replies here, where there are even angry rebukes towards others, even calling into question the sincerity of their walk with Christ.

Secondly, this thread has also segued into a discussion about salvation in general and it only has because of the context of the Holiness Club List...written by unregenerate men in their quest to be made more holy. There are some very important discussion points that have been raised about this that some here are dismissing, even with disdain!. Please let's not do that, but let us conduct ourselves with love and self control towards one another and be careful before we jump to conclusions about the state of another persons heart on this forum.

Thirdly, many have rightly pointed out that there are descriptive instructions given by the apostles on how we ought to live. I don't think anyone can disagree with this, however as Blaine and TMK and others have pointed out, when we have the indwelling Christ, all such lists are eventually internalized...we live in obedience to Him, the indwelling law giver and as such a list of rules should not be necessary.

But what then do we say about the "lists" and instructions that are found in scripture? I believe it is a matter of maturity. For a person or pagan community who have just come to know Christ, these instructions are absolutely essential. It is the same way that we teach little children how to eat their food and say their first words; but those instructions become unnecessary for a grown man who has been fully taught. So it is with those who have walked with The Lord for many years, they know and continually practice the instructions in the Word and live out on a daily basis the commandments of Christ. But more so they go beyond the written word and are "taught of The Lord" in that He leads them into all truth, even more restrictive in some cases than generic biblical instructions.

Finally I want to come full circle back to the list. Why is it that we feel "challenged" when we read such things? Why such feelings of inadequacy? Why would you beat yourself up (and please don't pretend that is not what happens) over such lofty standards held up by these men? If you intend to "push" yourself with any of these questions then please GO ALL THE WAY...just as they did and beat your body into submission and leave everything that this world provides as you pursue the same goals and quests of the holiness club! Because dear brothers and sisters unless you are prepared to go all the way with it as the writers intended, then just leave such lists alone and stick to the things that the Holy Spirit leads you into as you devote yourself to Jesus Christ more and more each day, making sure that our lives are all about Him.

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sermonindex

Brothers I think we are all on the same page regarding the Spirit convicting us through Gods word. I deeply apologize if my posts were offensive. I sought to reason from the New Testament out of a heart of His Love. My desire was we would not get into self condemnation into a check list mentality.

Brothers anybody who knows me will tell you the word of Christ is central in my life. But also it must be His Spirit to apply it to my life.

I have found the discussions to be good and iron sharpening. It was good for Lesmanto to open up the thread.

Brothers I think this is a good point for me to bow out. Must tend to other things. But God bless each of you. Lord willing, will meet you on another thread.

Bear master :-)

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Oracio

Brother Mark, I really do appreciate your input and agree with most of what you share. But I do have a slight concern about this portion of your post:

But what then do we say about the "lists" and instructions that are found in scripture? I believe it is a matter of maturity. For a person or pagan community who have just come to know Christ, these instructions are absolutely essential. It is the same way that we teach little children how to eat their food and say their first words; but those instructions become unnecessary for a grown man who has been fully taught. So it is with those who have walked with The Lord for many years, they know and continually practice the instructions in the Word and live out on a daily basis the commandments of Christ. But more so they go beyond the written word and are "taught of The Lord" in that He leads them into all truth, even more restrictive in some cases than generic biblical instructions.

The concern is that you seem to imply there that certain exhortations and instructions from God’s Word are no longer needed once you mature in the Lord; that you can reach a point when you are perfected in certain areas. I believe that can be harmful to our walk in the sense that we can think more highly of ourselves than we ought, and we can devalue God’s Word and deem it unnecessary because we think we’ve outgrown it. I believe as long as we are in these fallen bodies we will always need to heed even the most basic instructions from God’s Word. For example, let’s take the basic issue of anger. After we first get saved we learn that God sees unrighteous anger as heart-murder, and we take serious heed to that warning. After years of following Christ we may indeed mature in that area, but who of us can say we no longer have the temptation to get angry with others who may irritate us. We will always need to be watchful in that area because we still have this flesh to deal with.

But in general I agree with your point that we do grow and need to go on to maturity in Christ and beyond elementary things as Hebrews 6:1-3 exhorts us.

O
Oracio

Amen brother Blaine, no hard feelings at all here. I agree with you on differentiating between self condemnation and conviction of the Spirit.

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sermonindex

Non Catholic church goers in Britain, who have never been saved are known as Liberals. They go to church because they belong to a certain social class which has a family background of church goers in the days when these people would have more social standing. They often have a background of liberal Church of England fathers who were vicars. In the past however, there were many more Evangelicals. In Wesley's day l have no idea how many but they would not be the ordinary men in the street. They would be Catholic or lndependents.

So these higher class people of whom l am well acquainted through my time in the Church of England, traditionally, go to church on Sundays and believe that taking communion and doing good works in the community in return for their privileges in life, well equip them for heaven. They do not take the scriptures literally and would never consider a need for inner purity. An Englishman's thoughts are his own, like his house is his castle.

The idea that a group of such people would be getting together and formatting lists to question each other about their wrongdoings is absolutely way out of the window according to the social mores and stiff upper lip attitudes amongst these men and women. If it is the American way it is not the British way and less so in Wesleys time when pretense and social standing were all.

You would only get a group like that amongst men who were already believers and familiar with holiness teaching and following that pathway. The liberals would more than likely never have heard about it even. It never has gained much ground here apart from in times like Wesley's followers. Ask an Englishman what holiness teaching is and he won't have a clue whereas ask an American and he will say no drinking, no shorts, no ........

No the list was written by Christians who were encouraging each other to be in a repentant state of mind in order to seek the same as what Wesley had found at Aldersgate.

It is for those who hunger and thirst for holiness.

O
Oracio

Just for the record brother Paul West, I really did appreciate and agree with your emphasis on focusing on Christ in us as opposed to looking solely within and to ourselves, and your emphasis on acknowledging our fallenness and shortcomings. The part that probably stood out the most to me was this, "I know I could be more patient, because Jesus lives in me and He is more patient. I know I could be more giving, because Jesus lives in me and He is more giving. I know I could be more humble, because Jesus live in me in He is more humble. I know I could be more punctual, because Jesus lives in me and He is more punctual. I know I could be more honest, because Jesus lives in me and He is more honest, etc."

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PaulWest

Thank you dear brother. I appreciate all you've shown us in this thread as well. Your posts are always well written, thought provoking, and spiritually engaging. I bless God for online fellowship with brethen like yourself and others. Let's keep it up!

In the grace of God,

Paul

H
Heydave

Krautfrau wrote:
"Non Catholic church goers in Britain, who have never been saved are known as Liberals. They go to church because they belong to a certain social class which has a family background of church goers in the days when these people would have more social standing. They often have a background of liberal Church of England fathers who were vicars. In the past however, there were many more Evangelicals. In Wesley's day l have no idea how many but they would not be the ordinary men in the street. They would be Catholic or lndependents"

I tend to agree with this and the rest of what you wrote. It's probably hard for those in the USA to understand this.

Most of those who were at Oxford University at the same time would have considered themselves Christian and attended the church services. They looked upon Wesley and his friends as extremists and therefore called them 'that holy club' and Methodists as a derogatory thing.

I don't think we can be so bold as to ascribe dates to when we think someone became a child of God. Even if some of their experiences they described appear this way. We are talking about nearly 300 years ago and our perceptions of recorded events may not be the same as intended. I'm not saying either way, it is not for me to declare when someone is saved. Also I think our doctrinal positions affect our thinking on this.

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sermonindex

Yes HeyDave, exactly right, it would be the posh liberals who would make fun of the other crowd, the Holy ones and they could have been no other but Evangelicals as there were no other groups to be found. In Britain it is liberals who take the scripture as myth, or the born agains.

Social classes in Britain were even more rigid in the past so you can make generalisations that would be impossible in the US.

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Another point about these CofE unsaved men, is that they have never engaged in midweek meetings. They certainly never pray together, they do not have time, being so busy in social events and attending the 'Lodge'being good Free Masons.

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sermonindex

Hi Oracio,
To be clear I am not advocating that the scriptures are no longer needed at any stage of growth of a believer. Neither am I suggesting that we ever reach a point of perfection at all because we will only reach Christs perfection once we are glorified and become just like Him.

What I am saying is that many of the instructions given in the scripture are vitally important but so much that is often referred to as "instructions for living" could be classified as "milk" and actually that is what Hebrews calls it. But this is very vital to the formation and development of baby christians and that is why getting the scriptures into the languages of pagan cultures is so important.

But to use your example, a person who still gets angry and hates others in their heart is still a baby in at least that area and needs to be taught again basic elementary teachings until they learn to be obedient to the Lord. But as we learn obedience, denying our self-will, we begin to mature and the Lord is able to feed us more and more solid food...or as Hebrews calls it, the "Word of Righteousness".

This is not a lifestyle of following elementary instructions but rather having matured, we are able to be more fully controlled by the Holy Spirit...which allows His divine nature to grow in us. This is in contrast to living a moral life under the instruction of commandments verses living out the new life of the Holy Spirit under the New Covenant.

Hebrews 5 better explains my some of my thoughts:
"About this we have much to say, and it is hard to explain, since you have become dull of hearing. For though by this time you ought to be teachers, you need someone to teach you again the basic principles of the oracles of God. You need milk, not solid food, for everyone who lives on milk is unskilled in the word of righteousness, since he is a child. But solid food is for the mature, for those who have their powers of discernment trained by constant practice to distinguish good from evil."

From Zac Poonen:
"Old Testament saints could receive a number of blessings from God. They could receive forgiveness of sins (as David received - Psa. 103:3) and be justified by faith (as Abraham was - Gen. 15:6;Rom. 4:2,3). They could also come to an external righteousness of life (as Zacharias and Elisabeth came to - Lk. 1:6) and be anointed for service (as Gideon and Elisha were - Judg. 6:34;2 Ki. 2:9-15).

In other words, they could come into the Outer Court and even into the Holy Place. But when they came to the veil curtaining- off the Most Holy Place, they could not proceed any further. They could not partake of God's nature.

Under the New Covenant however, the way has been opened for us to enter right through the veil into the Most Holy Place. We are told in Hebrews 10:19,20 that we now have "confidence to enter the (most) holy place by the blood of Jesus, by a new and living way which He inaugurated for us through the veil, that is, His flesh".

The temple in Jerusalem (built according to the pattern of the tabernacle) also had a veil between the Holy Place and the Most Holy Place. This was torn from top to bottom, when Jesus died on Calvary (Matt. 27:50,51). This signified a finished work that Jesus had done in His flesh.

The secret of living a godly life (we are told in 1 Tim. 3:16) lies in knowing that Christ came in the flesh and kept His spirit pure and undefiled. It is thus that the way into the Most Holy Place has been opened for us to enter in.

Man's self-will is the thick "veil" that blocks off the presence of God from him. Jesus denied His own will at all times during His earthly life. It was thus that He kept His spirit pure. We too can walk the same way, if we "crucif y the flesh (self-will) with its passions and desires" (Gal. 5:24). We can then dwell in the Most Holy Place always as Jesus did.

When the apostle writes to the Hebrews, contrasting milk with solid food (Heb. 5:13), he tells them that the truth (`solid food') was "difficult to explain" (v. 11). That truth (as the context clearly shows in Heb. 5:7-10) referred to Christ in the days of His flesh, praying with loud crying and tears, suffering, obeying and being made complete.

Just as it was difficult for many believers to receive this truth in the first century, it is difficult for most believers to receive it today also. And the reason is the same - because they are "dull of hearing" (Heb. 5:11). And they are dull of hearing because they are content with their sub- standard defeated state."

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Mark I said I was going to bow out but now you are expressing some profound thoughts.

In 2 Peter 1:4 we are told that we have been granted His precious and magnificent promises. By these promises we have been made partakers of His divine nature by which we escape the corruption in the world but list.

It seems as a result of us being in His divine nature we supply faith, moral excellence, knowledge, self-control, perseverance, godliness, brotherly kindness, and love.

So do we grow in these qualities or any other N.T.qualities because we are being transformed into the image of Jesus?

Bearmaster

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All right I am waxing in heretical mode :) Paul tells Timothy in 2 Tim. 3:15-17 that he had known the sacred writings that are able to make him wise for salvation. Then Paul tells Timothy all scripture is inspired by God. It's profit is in teaching, reproof, correction, and training in righteousness so that the man of God may be adequate for every good deed.

Alright. As we grow in Christ do we get to a point where the word if God goes from being a corrective guide to a source of life to feed the inner man.

Just thinking out loud. And I get dangerous when I think. :-)

Bearmaster

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Oracio

Very well put brother Mark. The only thing I would add is that in 1Pet.2:1-3 God's Word seems to exhort all Christians, not just the babes in Christ, "Therefore, laying aside all malice, all deceit, hypocrisy, envy, and all evil speaking, 2 as newborn babes, desire the pure milk of the word, that you may grow thereby, 3 if indeed you have tasted that the Lord is gracious."

Or is God's Word there only addressed to babes in Christ? I know some parts are exhortations and rebukes to babes in Christ like in 1Cor.3 and as you pointed out in Hebrews 5.

Or is it that in one sense we are to grow from the milk of God's Word to the more meaty parts of it, and yet in another sense still desire all of God's Word as new born babes desire their mother's milk? I know that seems contradictory but sometimes it just seems that way on the surface yet there is an explainable reconciliation. Just kinda thinking out loud here too.

I looked at Matthew Henry's commentary on that passage in 1Peter and this is what it says which I found interesting:

"Hence learn, (1.) The best Christians have need to be cautioned and warned against the worst sins, such as malice, hypocrisy, envy. They are but sanctified in part, and are still liable to temptations. (2.) Our best services towards God will neither please him nor profit us if we be not conscientious in our duties to men. The sins here mentioned are offences against the second table. These must be laid aside, or else we cannot receive the word of God as we ought to do. (3.) Whereas it is said all malice, all guile, learn, That one sin, not laid aside, will hinder our spiritual profit and everlasting welfare. (4.) Malice, envy, hatred, hypocrisy, and evil-speaking, generally go together. Evil-speaking is a sign that malice and guile lie in the heart; and all of them combine to hinder our profiting by the word of God.

II. The apostle, like a wise physician, having prescribed the purging out of vicious humours, goes on to direct to wholesome and regular food, that they may grow thereby. The duty exhorted to is a strong and constant desire for the word of God, which word is here called reasonable milk, only, this phrase not being proper English, our translators rendered it the milk of the word, by which we are to understand food proper for the soul, or a reasonable creature, whereby the mind, not the body, is nourished and strengthened. This milk of the word must be sincere, not adulterated by the mixtures of men, who often corrupt the word of God, 2 Co. 2:17. The manner in which they are to desire this sincere milk of the word is stated thus: As new-born babes. He puts them in mind of their regeneration. A new life requires suitable food. They, being newly born, must desire the milk of the word. Infants desire common milk, and their desires towards it are fervent and frequent, arising from an impatient sense of hunger, and accompanied with the best endeavours of which the infant is capable. Such must Christians' desires be for the word of God: and that for this end, that they may grow thereby, that we may improve in grace and the knowledge of our Lord and Saviour, 2 Pt. 3:18. Learn, 1. Strong desires and affections to the word of God are a sure evidence of a person's being born again. If they be such desires as the babe has for the milk, they prove that the person is new-born. They are the lowest evidence, but yet they are certain. 2. Growth and improvement in wisdom and grace are the design and desire of every Christian; all spiritual means are for edification and improvement. The word of God, rightly used, does not leave a man as it finds him, but improves and makes him better."

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PaulWest

Alright. As we grow in Christ do we get to a point where the word if God goes from being a corrective guide to a source of life to feed the inner man.

This is a very interesting point you've brought up. Every genuine child of God indwelt by the Holy Spirit has a kind of "internal sin detector" which alerts the conscience when he falls short of the glory of God in any way, whether it be in speech, in action, or in hidden motive. As I see it, the written Word of God is the voice of the Holy Spirit on paper. When scripture expostulates against sexual immorality, drunkenness, hypocrisy, theft, lying, blasphemy, greed, etc. it is bearing witness to what has already been established in our hearts by the selfsame Spirit.

Now, whether or not we choose to yield to what we already know is where the rubber meets the road. Our hearts bear witness that the written Word and the indwelling Spirit are one and the same. Therefore, as newborn babes in Christ, we begin "laying aside" all that God has said must go: malice, hypocrisy, envy, evil speaking, etc. Once you have begun yielding to this, the Spirit can now begin nourishing you with the milk of the Word to grow thereby. The Word becomes a source of Life to feed the inner man.

Haven't you seen this work? You humble yourself under the hand of God and He begins exalting you. But there is some confusion here. The exaltation under the Old Covenant was physical: health, more money, better crops, livestock multiplied, wife bore more children, you could kill your enemies more efficiently during wartime. But under the New covenant, when God exalts you, it means He gives your inner man light and you begin to get victory over the power of sin through grace. Blessings in the Old Covenant prospered the "outer man"; but blessings in the New Covenant prospers the "inner man". God exalts Him in spiritual victory! Tragically, most pastors and teachers today preach an obsolete "outer man" (health and wealth) exaltation by God in response to obedience.

When God is growing you in Christ, the Word becomes milk first...and then meat. This happens as we yield internally to the revelations He has already given us in specific areas. This is why I refuse to judge another believer based upon external observation. If a brother is wearing an earring, for example, I will say nothing nor think him less spiritual than I. For in his thought life he could be much cleaner than I am. He could speak to his wife and children with much more grace than I do to my own. Those are the real "inner cup" things God is concerned with! Not a little piece of metal sticking in the "outer cup" of his ear.

That's just one example of light you can get from the Word. And you say, "Yes, Lord. I will not judge him", humble yourself and surrender your critique. Soon, God will exalt your inner man with more light from the Word. Because you were a faithful steward of the "ten dollars" worth of light God gave you (investing it wisely), He will now increase your share to "one hundred" and give your inner man even deeper revelation of spiritual riches. That's how it works with me.

The "laying aside" comes first (I Peter 2:1); once you lay aside, you can begin drinking and eating and investing and building your treasure storehouse with God.

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Oracio

Great insights Paul. PTL!

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sermonindex

Paul,
Incredible insight from the Holy Spirit. I certainly appreciate everyone who is wrestling with God on these issues.
And I believe the Lord is pleased when we communicate with one another in love. That is true fellowship.
Leslie

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sermonindex

I am loving this thread! Powerful insight, thank you for sharing brother Paul! Yes Oracio, I believe you are right, the Word is necessary for the believer at all stages of growth. Bearmaster, I am glad you didn't how out after all...your thoughts are very profitable!

I have been musing this morning I began to think of all the metaphors used for Gods Word: honey, bread, milk, meat; nourishment, light, water, a guide, a lamp, a mirror, a treasure, a source of hope, truth etc

For the old covenant believer the word of God had the same effect as it does on the new covenant believer...it provided spiritual nourishment and gave them understanding..."The entrance of thy words giveth light; it giveth understanding unto the simple. (Psalms 119:130 KJV)

But as we have been discussing here the Word of God is not what or who grows in us, it is the very nature of God, God Himself, the Holy Spirit...the Spirit of Christ...Christ in us!!!

So what then is the relationship between the written Word and the indwelling Christ? Can we continue to grow in Christ without the written Word? It is possible but we would probably grow very slowly and probably be "deformed" in some way. The reason I believe is because God Word is literally breathed from His mouth and infused or "locked" in these simple written words. As a person begins to read the Word of God , their mind begins to be washed and cleared of confusion and begins to align with Truth. This mysterious process only occurs within those who are hungry and thirsty for truth; for knowledge of the Holy One. To the mocker or self righteous hypocrite who has closed their heart to God, the Word of God carries mere intellectual concepts. That doesn't mean that Gods Word cannot save them, but there first has to first be an awakening and then His Word brings forth conviction leading to repentance.

But for born again believers the Word of God is essential to wash away the dust and filth of this world so that our meditations will be on The Lord and not other things. When we read Gods Word and meditate on Scripture the Holy Spirit releases truth to us by divine revelation. This is the promise to all who hunger and thirst after Him, who seek diligently after The Lord.

The scriptures are very important but they are not the Life themselves, Christ is our life. The purpose of Gods Word is to lead us to Christ and reveal Christ and His nature to us so that we will be continually laying aside our ways, our will and seeking His face and listening listen to His words.

This is Gods ultimate goal for us, that the one thing we desire would be to sit at His feet and listen to His words...that our whole lives would be all about Him!!!

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sermonindex

Brethren I am reminded of a quote by Eric Sanders where he says,

"People whose lives are centered around Christ don't just study the Bible to be smarter. They see that every single page of His Word is stained with the crimson blood of Jesus Himself. Suddenly the Bible isn't just a text to be studied, but a source of life for a withering branch".

In other words we are not to approach the Word as a rule book. Or to do a Kay Arthur inductive chapter analysis. The Pharissees were masters at Bible study. For Jesus tells them in John 5:39-47 that they searched or studied the scriptures. But did not realize the scriptures were testifying, pointing to Him.

Thus if the Word is not pointing us to Jesus and we are having life from His Word. Then we are missing Him.

Must stand down now. Have 12 hour call to prepare for. But good thoughts expressed here. Lord willing, hope to be back on Monday.

Bearmaster.


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sermonindex

I do honor our dear sister, Leslie, for opening this thread. Good thoughts expressed here. Particularly about the Word of God.

Blaine

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sermonindex

Just one more quick thought to share. Col. 3:16 says to let the Word of Christ richly dwell within us . Is this the same as letting Jesus, the Word Himself rule our lives?

Just thinking out loud.

Bear.,

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sermonindex


Colossians 3:16
New King James Version (NKJV)
16 Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly in all wisdom, teaching and admonishing one another in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing with grace in your hearts to the Lord.


It says to "admonish" each other so it seems it is musing and having the Word's of Christ in us so we can encourage each other in the way of obeying them.

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MrBillPro

The greatest mistake we make, is living in constant fear that we will make one. John Maxwell

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MaryJane

by MrBillPro on 2014/6/8 6:50:56

The greatest mistake we make, is living in constant fear that we will make one. John Maxwell

________________

I know someone who is like that, their fear of failing at times almost keeps them from trying.I pray with this person often and I realize how hard it is for them to let it go and just trust in the LORD...

Personally as I have considered this thread I am seeing for myself how daily if I don't walk close to JESUS, if I don't seek HIM, how easy about sin I could become. There is so much out in the world, even from the Christian community that speaks pretty words to ease my conscious where sin is concerned and I don't want to be deceived into compromising. A part of my growing in faith is learning to remain in HIM and pray diligently with out ceasing.

I think the only answer for both my friend and myself is to remain in JESUS, walking with HIM daily and responding to the leading HE has for each of us in our lives.

This thread is so amazing to me because again it shows me how GOD can use these things in each of our lives to serve HIS purpose for us.

Thank you MrBill for posting this quote it is such a good reminder to keep praying for this person in my life. Thank you everyone for sharing what the LORD has placed on your heart.

God bless
mj

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roadsign

The greatest mistake we make, is living in constant fear that we will make one. John Maxwell

It's called perfectionism, fear of the "imperfect'.
God, in his infinite wisdom, will give us "opportunities" whereby we will fail - lest we grow to depend on ourselves and our own righteousness. God has no problem doing that :)

And when we fail we discover God's awesome grace.

Diane

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PaulWest

It's called perfectionism, fear of the "imperfect'.
God, in his infinite wisdom, will give us "opportunities" whereby we will fail - lest we grow to depend on ourselves and our own righteousness. God has no problem doing that :)

And when we fail we discover God's awesome grace.


True words.

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AbideinHim

I have been reading the posts on this thread and have found it to be a great discussion with many good insights from just about everyone that has posted their thoughts on the issue of "self examination."

I would like to post a few scriptures that give light on this subject and would lead us to see that all self examination has to be done in the light of the Holy Spirit as He illuminates the Word to us.

We would be very poor judges to search our own hearts, because it would be very easy to see all sorts of sins, faults, and failures that the enemy could use to accuse us with and put us under condemnation.

We do not even know our own hearts, so all self seeking and examination would be in vain. "The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?" (Jeremiah 17:9).

We ought to allow God to search our hearts:
"Search me, O God, and know my heart; Try me and know my anxious thoughts; And see if there be any hurtful way in me, And lead me in the everlasting way." (Psalm 139: 23, 24).

As we draw close to the Lord and seek His face keeping our eyes on Jesus, light is given to us as to the many ways that we have failed God. "in His light we will see light." (Psalm 36:9)

Our greatest need is to see the Lord, and the Holy Spirit has been sent to convict us of our sins, and lead us into all truth.

"Then said I, Woe is me! for I am undone; because I am a man of unclean lips, and I dwell in the midst of a people of unclean lips: for mine eyes have seen the King, Jehovah of hosts." (Isaiah 6:5).

Not only will the Holy Spirit deal with our sins and make them known to us, but He will also reveal Jesus to us.
"If we confess our sins, he is faithful and righteous to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness." (1John 1:9).

If we are walking in fellowship with God, walking in the light, then anything that we do that would break that fellowship would be grievious to us, and would be a hindrance to that fellowship which we so greatly cherish.

"if we walk in the Light as He Himself is in the Light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus His Son cleanses us from all sin." (1John 1:7)

Mike

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MrBillPro

The sea of God's grace has never been charted because His grace has no boundaries!

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sermonindex

The puritans have many works on Self-Examination, here is an excerpt from one:

No one should be satisfied with his own self-inspection, but by earnest and believing prayer, should entreat of GOD to search him also, and to make known to him his real condition. That man knows not the deceitfulness of his heart, nor is he duly impressed with the danger and consequences of self-deception, who does not occasionally with intense solicitude, present the prayer of the Psalmist, "Search me, O God, and know my heart; try me and know my thoughts, and see if there be any wicked way in me, and lead me in the way everlasting." Psalm 139:23, 24.

Ask, then, afresh, and with deep solemnity at the close of the present, or at the beginning of the next year, the momentous question, "Am I a sincere Christian””or only a professor?" Set apart an additional hour, to inquire into this great subject. O what are all other questions compared with this, but as the small dust of the balance? By all the value you bear for your soul, or your soul's salvation, I entreat you in the most solemn manner, to take up this matter, and spread it before the Lord in prayer. Take the following questions as a test””

Have you a consciousness that you really believe in Jesus Christ, and are depending upon him, and him alone, for salvation? 1 John 5:10.

Do you bring forth the fruits of faith, which are the fruits of the Spirit, as set before us by the apostle? Gal. 5:6, 22-25. Acts 15:9. 1 John 2:15; 5:4.

Do you love God supremely, practically, habitually? 1 John 5:1-3.

Do you love the children of God, for God's sake? 1 John 3:14.

Are you complying with the apostle's direction in 2 Peter 1:5-10? On what principles do you act””those of the world or of the Bible? What is your predominant object, time or eternity””the world or salvation? 1 Cor. 4:18. Do you deny yourself for Christ's sake, or are you seeking only self-gratification? Matt. 16:25, 26.

How do you employ your talents of property, intellect, influence? For God or self? Rom. 14:7-9. 1 Cor. 6:20. Phil. 1:21.

How do you bear your afflictions? With submission or repining? Rom. 5:3.

from: http://www.gracegems.org/22/true_christian12.htm

Here also is a good message by Jonathan Edwards:

Christian Cautions (Or the necessity of self-examination)
https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/articles/index.php?view=article&aid=3415

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Oracio

God, in his infinite wisdom, will give us "opportunities" whereby we will fail - lest we grow to depend on ourselves and our own righteousness. God has no problem doing that :)

And when we fail we discover God's awesome grace.

Diane


Indeed, I just went through that painful process recently as I failed to show love and humility toward my dear wife. After expressing an outburst of wrath from feeling disrespected this thread became very real, practical and applicable to me. I found the sermon from Jonathan Edwards which brother Greg posted to be very helpful as the Lord brought deep conviction of my serious and wicked sin before Him. By God's grace we were reconciled and restored after I sincerely apologized and things have gotten better. Oh how I need to be watchful lest the enemy gets a stronghold over me and I be hindered and disqualified from serving our Lord.

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ZekeO

AbideInHim,

In reference to to John 16:8,9.

There is only one sin that the Holy Spirit convicts us of and thats the sin of unbelief in Jesus. Not sins plural, but sin singular.

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UntoBabes

First of all, thank you so much Greg, and Mike(AbideInHim) for your posts. I have only read the last 2 pages and the OP of this thread.

Second, I have a question regarding the quote by John Maxwell and what roadsign wrote.

Here is the whole quote :


" The greatest mistake we make, is living in constant fear that we will make one. John Maxwell

It's called perfectionism, fear of the "imperfect'.
God, in his infinite wisdom, will give us "opportunities" whereby we will fail - lest we grow to depend on ourselves and our own righteousness. God has no problem doing that :)

And when we fail we discover God's awesome grace"

Now, here is my question:

I know this is popular talk in both ancient and modern but especially modern writings, but i find it contrary to the way the Bible authors speak.
Instead, I read the Bible say, the more we are in utter terror about offending God by sinning, the less we will sin.
And where does it say in the Bible that God in his infinite wisdom will give us opportunities to fail lest we depend on our own righteousness?
I am not saying that no truth is contained in such talk, but where do you find the authors of Scriptures saying that by way of advice to believers?

I see a bit of psychology in these so called "encouraging" quotations and counsels speaches.

Am I wrong? If yes, please show from the Scriptures that I am.


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mattf12486

Quote "I know this is popular talk in both ancient and modern but especially modern writings, but i find it contrary to the way the Bible authors speak.
Instead, I read the Bible say, the more we are in utter terror about offending God by sinning, the less we will sin.
And where does it say in the Bible that God in his infinite wisdom will give us opportunities to fail lest we depend on our own righteousness?" Quote

I'm not sure what you mean by "utter terror." I'm with you that the thought of offending God should bring us to our knees and cause us to cry out for help but He is our Heavenly Father. I think of Peter denying the Lord three times. It wasn't utter terror that brought him to his knees but that he denied the one who loved him so much. Peter's example serves as a good illustration for both of the questions you raised. He also emphatically claimed that if all others forsook the Lord he wouldn't. So the Lord allowed satan to sift him and Peter was able to see that apart from God's grace, he was nothing.

O
Oracio

mattf12486 writes

I think of Peter denying the Lord three times. It wasn't utter terror that brought him to his knees but that he denied the one who loved him so much. Peter's example serves as a good illustration for both of the questions you raised. He also emphatically claimed that if all others forsook the Lord he wouldn't. So the Lord allowed satan to sift him and Peter was able to see that apart from God's grace, he was nothing.

Amen. I too was thinking of the same example of Peter. Our Lord knew Peter would deny Him three times. Our Lord could have told Peter, "Peter, you better not deny Me. You better not fail Me Peter. Or Else." Instead our Lord encouraged Peter not to lose heart even in his failure because there is mercy available after failure.

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UntoBabes


To me, Utter terror comes from the fact that God is a holy God who has no respect of persons. If His own Son Jesus, when bearing the sins of the world upon Himself, His own Father, the Father, had to turn his face away, and was pleased to crush, and desert Him, that he felt the lonliness, and terror of a sinner forsaken. That should strike terror in any sinner's heart.

Now, to comment on the example you gave of Peter denying Jesus. We know that that was not what Peter wrote, and we also know that Peter wrote 2 books in the Bible in which he mentions nothing of the account of his denial by means of giving comfort to believers who maybe tempted with denying Jesus. Not he nor any of the other Bible authors mention the sins of themselves nor of other followers of God in either the New, or the Old testaments in order to encourage those who maybe tempted to sin in similar manner.

For example, the Bible tells us of the account of Abraham lying about his wife because he feared for his life which illustrated lack of faith in God.
In the NT, Abraham is mentioned in several books. In Romans, Paul talks about the faith of Abraham, and in James, Abraham's works of faith are mentioned as an encouragment to the NT believer, but where do you see Abraham's unfaithfulness mentioned as a way to encourage believers? Could there be divine wisdom behind that?

The Bible tells us frankly of all the followres of God who failed Him at times, without trying to hide of gloss over their failures. some of these failures indeed resulted in humbling the believer, caused him to appreciate the grace, and longsuffering of God, and some showed the faithfulness of God to fullfil his promises despite the faithlessness of man, and furthermore, some of the sinful actions of man brought about God's designed end. But none of these believers like Abraham, David, or Peter were told before hand what the believer is told today, that their sins will bring about God end, and their own appreciation of his grace. could there be a reason behind that? All of them had to go through the path of repentance and mourning.
But now we have the "advantage" of looking back at all that took place and know how things really work.
We think of salvation as a family recipe handed down from our ancestors. Is that really an advantage? I think not.


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UntoBabes

Alright Oracio and matt,

Three observations from Peter's accounts.
1) Peter was acting in the flesh which needed to be corrected. Best illustration to give would be a 2 year old child telling his father "I can carry this 100 pound weight without your help", and the father smiling back and saying, "No, you can't and I will prove to you that you can't".

2) Peter never understood his sin, repentance and restoration to be a matter of doctrine as we make of it today. Both Peter and Judas betrayed Jesus. One was forgiven and one was not. To take Peter's denial of the Lord as a point of refrence to encourage believers, not knowing who maybe Peter and who maybe Judas is dangerous and presumptous.

3) Ever since the resurrection of Jesus we live under the despensation of the Spirit endwelling the believer. It is not us any longer who is carrying the 100 pound weight but God Himself, therefore, I find no use for all the talk of sin and defeat, and encouraging the believers through the sinful acts of those gone before who lived under a different despensation.

Add to that the fact that the promise given to Peter came directly from the throne. It is not our duty to tell people that their sins will be used to bring about their humility and God's mercy. This message has to be communicated directly by God to the individual believer. If I am to be told by God that I will be tried by Satan, and will commit a grevious sin, but will not be utterly lost. I may have comfort in that, but that is not something I could find in the Word of God or seek from others as a word of comfort.
Why? Because the human heart is decietful above all and desperatly wicked. God knows the human heart and therefore never intended for "one size fits all" kind of salvation.

O
Oracio

Untobabes, I agree with you for the most part but I would say it works both ways. In other words, as you say, there is no encouragement to sin in Scripture, but there is also no discouragement from finding God's mercy when one sins, so long as one is truly repentant. You and I both know Scripture is clear on that.

Regarding God's disciplining grace I would point out Hebrews 12:5-11
"And you have forgotten the exhortation which speaks to you as to sons: "My son, do not despise the chastening of the Lord, Nor be discouraged when you are rebuked by Him; 6 For whom the Lord loves He chastens, And scourges every son whom He receives." 7 If you endure chastening, God deals with you as with sons; for what son is there whom a father does not chasten? 8 But if you are without chastening, of which all have become partakers, then you are illegitimate and not sons. 9 Furthermore, we have had human fathers who corrected us, and we paid them respect. Shall we not much more readily be in subjection to the Father of spirits and live? 10 For they indeed for a few days chastened us as seemed best to them, but He for our profit, that we may be partakers of His holiness. 11 Now no chastening seems to be joyful for the present, but painful; nevertheless, afterward it yields the peaceable fruit of righteousness to those who have been trained by it."

That passage clearly teaches us that if we are children of God we will have to endure His chastening hand because of our sins/failures at times. This is not an encouragement to sin but an admonishment not to lose heart when we sin.

While God's Word does not condone sin in any way, it also does not teach sinless perfection in this life. If God's Word does not teach sinless perfection, it is safe to say God allows us to fail and brings us through His process of chastening. In His divine wisdom He allows it. He could have made us completely sinless in this life but in His infinite wisdom He has not chosen to do that.

O
Oracio

Untobabes writes:

Ever since the resurrection of Jesus we live under the despensation of the Spirit endwelling the believer. It is not us any longer who is carrying the 100 pound weight but God Himself, therefore, I find no use for all the talk of sin and defeat, and encouraging the believers through the sinful acts of those gone before who lived under a different despensation.

Untobabes, Peter sinned even after Pentecost(Galatians 2:11-14)

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UntoBabes

Oracio, I honestly could not say the Bible teaches sinless perfection or not, but i can say the Bible does not speak one word against perfection, but encourages us all over its pages to pursue it.

I see it in this way: A parent who encourages his child to score 100% on the test. As long as the child is aiming for that perfect mark, he will not fall too far behind. He may score 90% or higher. But the parent knows that if he tells his child not to sweat too much about it because he will pass if he scores anywhere above 50%, the child will not set his goals very high. In fact, the chance of failure is very propable.

"Children, do not sin" is the Bible's message to believers regarding sin. For those who will take heed of that message, and will do everything possible in way of watchfulness to avoid sinning, if they do sin, they have an advocate with the Father, Jesus.

Now, regarding Peter's sin in you refrence, he being the Apostle to the circumcised, and Paul the Apostle to the Gentiles, conflict was unavoidable. I do not think that Peter did anything intentional, and when he understood some things in a different light,he completely resigned to Pauls point of view.

Here is how I understand human perfection as opposed to infinite perfection that is attributed only to God.
Imagine a small glass of water limited in its capacity but pure in its content. God expects us to do all that he gave us light on and nothing more.

O
Oracio

Untobabes, I believe God's Word is pretty clear in that passage that Peter sinned and was accountable for his sin of hypocrisy. Otherwise it would mean Paul is lying there.

Oracio, I honestly could not say the Bible teaches sinless perfection or not, but i can say the Bible does not speak one word against perfection, but encourages us all over its pages to pursue it.

I want to touch again on that passage in Hebrews 12. Verse 5 says, "But if you are without chastening, of which all have become partakers, then you are illegitimate and not sons."

God says there that every one of His children is a partaker of His chastening hand. By implication that means that every Christian sins, since there is no need for chastening if there is no sin to chasten for.

A while back a wrote this piece on the topic of sinless perfectionism in case anyone is interested:
http://conformedintohisimage.blogspot.com/2012/06/we-all-stumble-in-many-things-james-32.html

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UntoBabes

Brother Oracio, I think you are driving what I said in a different direction. I am not discussing the fact taht Christians sin or that they do not. My question again is, does the Bible speak in the following terms: " Our greatest mistake is to live in constant fear that we will make one"?

Can this be true with regards to sin and holiness?

I can definitly see it in the physical. I know of people who score very poorly on their exams for fear of failing them, or someone who has fear of drowning who actually ends up drowning because of panic attack. But to take the laws that operate in the physical world and apply it to the spiritual world without checking with the scriptures is pure psychology.

So, lets take this to the spiritual.
Can someone end up sinning because they are terrified of sinning, and watch deligintly against offending God. And does the Bible teach that anywhere? please refrence your answer.
Think of Joseph when he ran away from Photiphar's wife. Did his fear to sin against God cause him to sin or to not sin.

Again, think of David's sin. If Nathan the prophet have, instead of rebuking David for his sin, told him that God has ordained in his infinite wisdom that David should sin in order to experience God's grace, and his own depravity more fully. Would that have brought David to the repentant state that was necessary for his restoration?

And, does our effort to summorize the Christian experience in a doctrinal form ends up doing more harm than good, by turing a trembling sinner( someone who fears sin) to a presumtuous sinner ( someone who is hardened beyond reach), because he thinks that sin is erdained by God for his good.

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UntoBabes

Do you think Peter would have denied the Lord after Pentecost? Was there any difference between the Peter before Penecost and the Peter after?

S
sermonindex

I would just like to quote from the great theologian Adam Clarke's Commentary here concerning the implication that the apostle is including himself in the above declaration:

Some have produced these words as a proof that "no man can live without sinning against God; for James himself, a holy apostle speaking of himself, all the apostles, and the whole Church of Christ, says, In many things we offend all." This is a very bad and dangerous doctrine; and, pushed to its consequences, would greatly affect the credibility of the whole Gospel system. Besides, were the doctrine as true as it is dangerous and false, it is foolish to ground it upon such a text; because St. James, after the common mode of all teachers, includes himself in his addresses to his hearers. And were we to suppose that where he appears by the use of the plural pronoun to include himself, he means to be thus understood, we must then grant that himself was one of those many teachers who were to receive a great condemnation, Jam 3:1; that he was a horse-breaker, because he says, "we put bits in the horses' mouths, that they may obey us," Jam 3:3; that his tongue was a world of iniquity, and set on fire of hell, for he says, "so is the tongue among our members," Jam 3:6; that he cursed men, "wherewith curse we men, Jam 3:9. No man possessing common sense could imagine that James, or any man of even tolerable morals, could be guilty of those things. But some of those were thus guilty to whom he wrote; and to soften his reproofs, and to cause them to enter the more deeply into their hearts, he appears to include himself in his own censure; and yet not one of his readers would understand him as being a brother delinquent.

Offend not in word, the same is a perfect man - To understand this properly we must refer to the caution St. James gives in the preceding verse: Be not many masters or teachers - do not affect that for which you are not qualified, because in your teaching, not knowing the heavenly doctrine, ye may sin against the analogy of faith. But, says he, if any man offend not, ου πταιει, trip not, εν λογῳ, in doctrine, teaching the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, the same is τελειος ανηρ, a man fully instructed in Divine things: How often the term λογος, which we render word, is used to express doctrine, and the doctrine of the Gospel, we have seen in many parts of the preceding comment. And how often the word τελειος, which we translate perfect, is used to signify an adult Christian, one thoroughly instructed in the doctrines of the Gospel, may be seen in various parts of St. Paul's writings. See among others, Co1 2:6; Co1 14:20; Eph 4:13; Phi 3:15; Col 4:12; Heb 5:14. The man, therefore, who advanced no false doctrine, and gave no imperfect view of any of the great truths of Christianity; that man proved himself thereby to be thoroughly instructed in Divine things; to be no novice, and consequently, among the many teachers, to be a perfect master, and worthy of the sacred vocation.

T
TMK

No, James was simply telling the truth- that we all-- including James, stumble in many things.

Peter may not have denied the Lord after Pentecost but he sinned- Paul tells us that he did. If Peter didn't sin, then Pail lied about it and PAUL sinned.

Come on guys. Let's not get into this debate again. It's silly.

S
sermonindex

And he cursed men, "wherewith curse we men, Jam 3:9?

O
Oracio

I agree more with Matthew Henry's take that passage:

The apostle here reproves ambition, and an arrogant magisterial tongue; and shows the duty and advantage of bridling it because of its power to do mischief. Those who profess religion ought especially to govern their tongues (v. 1-12). True wisdom makes men meek, and avoiders of strife and envy: and hereby it may easily be distinguished from a wisdom that is earthly and hypocritical (v. 13 to the end).

Verses 1-12

The foregoing chapter shows how unprofitable and dead faith is without works. It is plainly intimated by what this chapter first goes upon that such a faith is, however, apt to make men conceited and magisterial in their tempers and their talk. Those who set up faith in the manner the former chapter condemns are most apt to run into those sins of the tongue which this chapter condemns. And indeed the best need to be cautioned against a dictating, censorious, mischievous use of their tongues. We are therefore taught,

I. Not to use our tongues so as to lord it over others: My brethren, be not many masters, etc., v. 1. These words do not forbid doing what we can to direct and instruct others in the way of their duty or to reprove them in a Christian way for what is amiss; but we must not affect to speak and act as those who are continually assuming the chair, we must not prescribe to one another, so as to make our own sentiments a standard by which to try all others, because God gives various gifts to men, and expects from each according to that measure of light which he gives. "Therefore by not many masters" (or teachers, as some read it); "do not give yourselves the air of teachers, imposers, and judges, but rather speak with the humility and spirit of learners; do not censure one another, as if all must be brought to your standard." This is enforced by two reasons. 1. Those who thus set up for judges and censurers shall receive the greater condemnation. Our judging others will but make our own judgment the more strict and severe, Mt. 7:1, 2. Those who are curious to spy out the faults of others, and arrogant in passing censures upon them, may expect that God will be as extreme in marking what they say and do amiss. 2. Another reason given against such acting the master is because we are all sinners: In many things we offend all, v. 2. Were we to think more of our own mistakes and offenses, we should be less apt to judge other people. While we are severe against what we count offensive in others, we do not consider how much there is in us which is justly offensive to them. Self-justifiers are commonly self-deceivers. We are all guilty before God; and those who vaunt it over the frailties and infirmities of others little think how many things they offend in themselves. Nay, perhaps their magisterial deportment, and censorious tongues, may prove worse than any faults they condemn in others. Let us learn to be severe in judging ourselves, but charitable in our judgments of other people.


S
sermonindex

Saints,

We are locked the thread at this point and feel the discussion has been exhausted. If there is a specific topic to restart a thread then that would be better. Let us stay away from any accusatory statements and be humble, be willing to learn and realize we all just see in part.

this thread is locked.

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