What is absolute surrender?

"From this day forward, I am enlisted in His service. I offer Him my fortune, my sword, and my life. And this I pledge to you on my honor as a Roman."

Marcellus Gallo, The Robe

2 Corinthians 5:15
and He died for all, that those who live should live no longer for themselves, but for Him who died for them and rose again.

Absolute surrender does come at genuine salvation and I also believe that we must "keep" choosing to surrender throughout our life also but you stated it better!

I like what you said but if I could humbly add what Andrew Murray wrote on it, I'd like that. I do not mean to take anything away from what you have written.

God bless you, brother!!
Lisa

http://www.ccel.org/ccel/murray/surrender.html

Page 1, first 2 paragraphs:
ABSOLUTE SURRENDER

"And Ben-hadad the king of Syria gathered all his host together: and there were thirty and two kings with him, and horses, and chariots: and he went up and besieged Samaria, and warred against it. And he sent messengers to Ahab king of Israel into the city, and said unto him, Thus saith Ben-hadad, Thy silver and thy gold is mine; thy wives also and thy children, even the goodliest, are mine. And the king of Israel answered and said, My lord, O king, according to thy saying, I am thine and all that I have" (1 Ki. 20:1-4).

What Ben Hadad asked was absolute surrender; and what Ahab gave was what was asked of him--absolute surrender. I want to use these words: "My lord, O king, according to thy saying, I am thine, and all that I have," as the words of absolute surrender with which every child of God ought to yield himself to his Father. We have heard it before, but we need to hear it very definitely--the condition of God's blessing is absolute surrender of all into His hands. Praise God! If our hearts are willing for that, there is no end to what God will do for us, and to the blessing God will bestow.

Luke 9:23-24

"Then He said to them all, 'If anyone desires to come after Me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross daily, and follow Me. For whoever desires to save his life will lose it, but whoever loses his life for My sake will save it.'"

Oh! And I want to add this one!

Philippians 3:7-12

"But what things were gain to me, these I have counted loss for Christ. Yet indeed I also count all things loss for the excellence of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord, for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and count them as rubbish, that I may gain Christand be found in Him, not having my own righteousness, which is from the law, but that which is through faith in Christ, the righteousness which is from God by faith; that I may know Him and the power of His resurrection, and the fellowship of His sufferings, being conformed to His death, if, by any means, I may attain to the resurrection from the dead. Not that I have already attained, or am already perfected; but I press on, that I may lay hold of that for which Christ Jesus has also laid hold of me."

Oh man! v. 12 is so awesome!

Quote: I believe absolute surrender comes at genuine salvation.

Using the word salvation confuses the matter. Of salvation you could say this: I am saved, I am being saved and I will be saved.

So when does absolute surrender happen? When your saved, when your being saved or when you'll be saved?

Personally I think we are deluding ourselves if we say we absolutely surrendered at conversion. I see it this way: at conversion we gave all that we knew we could at that time, the Holy Spirit then started work on us and he will ultimately lead us to to a place where we can surrender absolutely.

For me absolute surrender this side of heaven is the death of the self life.

Quote: "I believe absolute surrender comes at genuine salvation. It is a hearts attitude that says to God " I give you my life, my whole life, holding nothing back."

Let the Christian be tested to the proof of the question "have they absolutely surrendered at conversion”, and the true position will be exposed.

Let them be forced into making a choice between God and money, between God and men, between God and personal ambition, God and self, God and human love, and God will take second place every time.

However the Christian may protest, the proof is in the choices he makes day after day throughout his life.

Quote: But the ultimate and absolute surrender came when we died, handed over our lives to him and so begins after that the war of the spirit and the flesh.

I will reply with a quote from Towzer.

Towzer quote:

Real faith must always be more than passive acceptance. It dare mean nothing less than surrender of our doomed Adam-life to a merciful end upon the cross. That is, we won God's just sentence against our evil flesh and admit His right to end its unlovely career. We reckon ourselves to have been crucified with Christ and to have risen again to newness of life. Where such faith is, God will always work in line with our reckoning. Then begins the divine conquest of our lives. This God accomplishes by an effective seizing upon, a sharp but love-impelled invasion of our natures. When He has overpowered our resistance He binds us with the cords of love and draws us to Himself. There, "faint with His loveliness" we lie conquered and thank God again and again for the blessed conquest. There, with moral sanity restored, we lift up our eyes and bless the Most High God. Then we go forth in faith to apprehend that for which we were first apprehended of God.

What is absolute surrender? I don't know, I haven't been there yet.

I believe absolute surrender comes at genuine salvation. It is a hearts attitude that says to God " I give you my life, my whole life, holding nothing back." I then believe that sanctification is a process whereby God takes what has been freely given to Him. We are not now our own, we have been bought by a price, the blood of Jesus. The more we give to God, the more we live out that surrender actually. The more we empty ourselves of the things of this world and the flesh, the more the world will see Jesus. We must decrease and He must increase. Yet, the work is all the Lord's and He gets all the glory. He does this work for his will and good pleasure. He heals, He restores He replaces the things that the locusts have devoured, He refines. He, through the Holy Spirit sanctifies, we surrender. So, ultimately surrender is a response to God. How we respond determines how we live and how we glorify God, which is our chief end in this life.....bro Frank

To answer the question simply, it is total conviction, as to the level that you are at, that the Lord Jesus Christ is everything.

What I mean is this, I do not seek to surrender, I seek Jesus. For in Him are the true spiritual realities of truth found not in my attempts to do so.

What I mean is this, I do not seek to surrender, I seek Jesus. For in Him are the true spiritual realities of truth found not in my attempts to do so.

My experience has been as soon as I begin looking for "component enhancement", these areas are the very ones in which I soon fail. If I seek humility, I become proud. If I seek surrender, I find myself soon again entangled with a besetting sin. These failures usually come after a period of "victory" in these very areas. From other mature saints I have spoken with, my experience in this is not unique.

Saints, we must seek Jesus Christ alone, and when we are His and He is ours, all of His will be ours, just as all of God's is His. This means we will have His complete surrender to His Father's will, His humility, His love, His patience, His fidelity, His compassion, His kindness, His temperance, His faith, His very mind. The secret to all Christian fullness is summated in Jesus Christ: the Sum of all components.

He gives us all we need at the level we are at because He gives of Himself. The size of the vessel does not alter the integrity of the Water. Water is water regardless if it fills a drinking glass, a bucket, or a river. Maturity simply marks an increase in the vessel's size. To the level of grace our present maturity in God calls for, this exact level will be proffered unto us -- and this is our perfection, for perfection is not attained but effortlessly obtained in a Person who inhabits the imperfect vessel through grace.

I find that the imperative that 'we must seek Jesus alone' to be rather vague and neither does it tell us how to do it.

Paul, did you read the OP?

"This prayer, 'Yes Father!', must become like second nature to us by the time persecution breaks out. We must start training ourselves now, so that every time our heart produces a No to God's leadings, it will be turned into a Yes. It is vital that we declare war on the spirit of defiance that arises in our heart when our will is thwarted. We must learn to submit to others, since it it ultimately God who ordains the course of life. This must all take place now - on the eve of persecution. So let us pray, 'By the time persecution comes, let my will be completely knit to Your will through repeated commitments to suffering.'"

- Basilea Schlink, "The Eve of Persecution"

The Sinner's Surrender To His Preserver.
by Charles spurgeon
I have sinned; what shall I do unto thee, O thou preserver of men? - Job 7:20.

Job could defend himself before men, but he used another tone when bowing before the Lord: there he cried,"I have sinned." The words would suit any afflicted saint; for, indeed, they were uttered by such an one; but they may also be used by the penitent sinner, and we will on this occasion direct them to that use.

1. A CONFESSION. "I have sinned."

In words this is no more than a hypocrite, nay, a Judas, might say. Do not many call themselves "miserable sinners" who are indeed despicable mockers? Yet seeing Job's heart was right his confession was accepted.

1. It was very brief, but yet very full. It was more full in its generality than if he had descended to particulars. We may use it as a summary of our life: "I have sinned." What else is certain in my whole career? This is most sure and undeniable.

2. It was personal. I have sinned, whatever others may have done.

3. It was to the Lord. He addresses the confession not to his fellowman but to the Preserver of men.

4. It was a confession wrought by the Spirit. See verse 18, where he ascribes his grief to the visitation of God.

5. It was sincere. No complimentary talk, or matter of ritualistic form, or passing acknowledgment. His heart cried,"I have sinned;" and he meant it.

6. It was feeling. He was cut to the quick by it. Read the whole chapter. This one fact, "I have sinned;' is enough to brand the soul with the mark of Cain, and burn it with the flames of hell.

7. It was a believing confession. Mingled with much unbelief Job still had faith in God's power to pardon. An unbelieving confession may increase sin.

II. AN INQUIRY. "What shall I do unto thee?"

In this question we see,””

1. His willingness to do anything, whatever the Lord might demand, thus proving his earnestness.

2. His bewilderment: he could not tell what to offer, or where to turn; yet something must be done.

3. His surrender at discretion. He makes no conditions, he only begs to know the Lord's terms.

4. The inquiry may be answered negatively.

o\tWhat can I do to escape thee? Thou art all around me.

o\tCan past obedience atone? Alas! As I look back I am unable to find anything in my life but sin.

o\tCan I bring a sacrifice? Would grief, fasting, long prayers, ceremonies, or self-denial avail? I know they would not.

5. It may be answered evangelically:

o\tConfess the sin."If we confess our sins," etc.

o\tRenounce it. By his grace we can"cease to do evil and learn to do well."

o\tObey the message of peace: believe in the Lord Jesus and live.

III. A TITLE. "O thou preserver of men!"

Observer of men, therefore aware of my case, my misery, my confession, my desire for pardon, my utter helplessness.

Preserver of men.

·\tBy his infinite long-suffering refraining from punishment.

·\tBy daily bounties of supply, keeping the ungrateful alive.

·\tBy the plan of salvation, delivering men from going down into the pit, snatching the brands from the burning.

·\tBy daily grace, preventing the backsliding and apostasy of believers. We must view the way and character of God in Christ if we would find comfort; and from his gracious habit of preserving men we infer that he will preserve us, guilty though we be. Address upon the point in hand, ””

·\tThe impenitent, urging them to confession.

·\tThe unconcerned, moving them to enquire,"What must we do to be saved?"

·\tThe ungrateful, exhibiting the preserving goodness of God as a motive for love to him.

Thank you Frank for your post of this very important and essential subject for all believers.

Absolute surrender is at the very heart of discipleship, because it takes a total surrender to fully follow Jesus. "Then said Jesus unto his disciples, If any man would come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me." (Matthew 16:24).

Yet how many evangelists and pastors are preaching the gospel of the Kingdom, in which Jesus demands to be everything? We have split up salvation so that sinners are hearing the good news of Jesus paying the price for our sins and giving all those that receive Him eternal life, without hearing much about the absolutes of descipleship, that Jesus Christ must be Lord of all.

Once we have heard the full gospel and go through many dealings of the Holy Spirit, we are then in the position to make an absolute surrender. As we grow spiritually going through many tests and trials, the Holy Spirit makes us aware of things in us that we have yet to surrender to the Lord. Many of us are like the rich young ruler in that there is usually one or two things that we are holding onto, and we thought we were doing good by the 95% that we have surrendered.

Praise God for His mercy, longsuffering and grace toward us, because anything that God demands of us, He will also give us the grace to do what He is requiring of us.

"Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling; for it is God who works in you both to will and to do for His good pleasure." (Philippians 2:12-13).

Mike

Quote: Absolute surrender is at the very heart of discipleship, because it takes a total surrender to fully follow Jesus. "Then said Jesus unto his disciples, If any man would come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me." (Matthew 16:24).

What is the Goal of the Christian Life?

It is DEATH!!!!! So Christ may live through us!

With that said: Absolute surrender = Absolute death.

murrcolr.....Absolute surrender is at the very heart of discipleship, because it takes a total surrender to fully follow Jesus. "Then said Jesus unto his disciples, If any man would come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me." (Matthew 16:24).

What is the Goal of the Christian Life?

It is DEATH!!!!! So Christ may live through us!

With that said: Absolute surrender = Absolute death.

Exactly! that's why I said this earlier in this thread:

"What is absolute surrender? I don't know, I haven't been there yet."

"When I came to Jesus, I absolutely surrendered my life unconditionally, holding nothing back in the depths of my heart. God saw this, a God who is well able to differentiate from what is genuine and what is not and accepted my genuine unconditional surrender. I now belonged to Him. He had already paid the price for whoever would come and accept His terms, unconditional surrender, the Blood of Jesus. The old Frank died. I was given a new heart."

Brother Frank,

What you described is the way that it should be when we come to Jesus and are saved. There should be an absolute surrender, but I wonder how often this is really the case.

Many people come to Jesus because they are convicted of their sins and realize that they are going to hell, and to them receiving Jesus is escaping hell. Many others come to Jesus because they want to be free from the bondage that the sin in their lives has resulted in.

There should be an absolute surrender at our initial salvation, and this should be taught by those that are preaching or sharing the gospel.

Mike

I dont think I agree with any here

I feel that the power to surrender in an absault way ,,which is not realy a good word to use ,,

comes down the track as were learn by the spirit what it means to surrender all

in our flesh or our old man ,we have no ability or want to surrender our life even to death of our bodies , towards god ,,,but the spirit must teach us how important it is and he must work in us to will and to do because ,,it is also a doing and not just a heart movement

it is a form of love your god with all your mind heart soul and strength ,,,and this must to worked out in our actions before god and men

I think we surrendered more and more of our selves and our life to god as we grow in grace , and the lord shows more and more that we have not yielded to him

Paul said to born-again believers to offer your bodies as living sacrifice,,,,,,, he said that to people who could under stand what he was saying ,and to people who obviously had not done that ...... they were already saved ,,,he said holy and acceptable to the lord ,,,,,,,this was not spoke to the filthy sinner to climb upon the alter ,unholy as your are

I don't like the word absolute surrender ,,only Jesus was absolutely surrendered ,,,,,,,thank god we are in Christ and his merits that include Christs life of absolute surrender are given to us as an part of imputed gift of righteousness ,,or else we would all be lost and doomed

that what I want to think about Christ and his life

lets keep our eyes on the righteous one and the perfect life he lived and pray for more mercy and grace

"I still believe brother, that one must give, initially, their whole life to Jesus and mean it in their hearts whether they are doing it because they are convicted of sin ( a great reason to give Him our lives) or one is looking for freedom from bondage( oh how I love Isaiah 61) or a combination of many things, but it all must lead to the giving up of one's life, the surrender. Would you not agree?"

Amen brother! I am in agreement with you, and we only know the full implications of that surrender as we grow in the Lord, and make Him Lord of all.

Mike

What is absolute surrender?

Interesting question...at least BillPro was honest about it - he felt like he has not achieved it yet! If we are honest about it we would have to agree it is not a one time event but a continuous one - Paul says "I die daily."

Someone on here a long time ago said if I argue with the Holy Spirit or the WORD I am not surrendered to Him. I think he is right. You do not argue with an authority figure: It is "Yes, Sir!"

This concept challenges me every time I tend to argue with the Holy Spirit when He tells me to do something I do not want to do.

I must needs die daily to my own logic, self-will. Only then will I make a fit partner to be yoked together with the LORD. If one of the team members digs in his heels, ya ain't goin' anywheres.

And I want to go.

Proverbs 4:18- But the path of the righteous is like the light of dawn, which shines brighter and brighter until full day. ESV

For someone just born again seeing absolutely is as clear as seeing absolutely at dawn. You think you are but all you are seeing is outlines. To the level you are at you can say with conviction there is absolute surrender, but the light of the full day sun will come to reveal more.

So, for me, your absolute surrender may very well be different to mine, does your christian expression give grace to me in that situation?

Rest in the grace of God, Jesus will lead you as surely and truly as the sun will rise to the full heat of the day.

apollus writes:

The last two replies to this thread made me smile. Oh how words and phrases can be used but mean the exact opposite to different people.

I would like to clarify as simply as I know how.......

When I came to Jesus, I absolutely surrendered my life unconditionally, holding nothing back in the depths of my heart. God saw this, a God who is well able to differentiate from what is genuine and what is not and accepted my genuine unconditional surrender. I now belonged to Him. He had already paid the price for whoever would come and accept His terms, unconditional surrender, the Blood of Jesus. The old Frank died. I was given a new heart. There were remarkable transformations in this new creature. Delivered right away from drugs, alcohol and a foul tongue. This new heart could actually feel, the old heart had been one of steel. This new heart had zero desire to disappoint the one it loved. The man was far from perfect, but I was, to use a theological term, justified in the sight of my Lord and my God. I was baptized in water shortly after this. Then about six months after that, I was baptized in the Holy Spirit and was filled with an incredible boldness, which actually is my abiding memory of this initial baptism in the Spirit, although it did come with tongues.

All along way from then till now I have been in the process of being sanctified. God is taking from me, slowly but surely, what was given to Him, my whole life holding nothing back. There have been countless trials, coals of fire, refining furnace situations, brokenness on many occasions and of course this is all only one side of the equation, one side of the coin. The other side, which makes all trials seem like mere rubbish, is, as the Scriptures tell us, to be found in Him, to " Know," Him, to walk in His presence and in His fellowship in an eternal fountain of living water that quenches every fiery trial.

And so one must surrender one's life, holding nothing back in the depths of their heart to be renewed and found in Him. The more foul the depths of the sinner, the more dramatic the surrender, but in any case no matter who, it is a dramatic thing to give up one's life and hand it away to be killed. My own wife, whom I had been married to for ten years when I came to Christ mourned the loss of the husband that she knew and saw a man whom she said was " obsessed with Jesus." I was and am guilty of that charge. The old Frank may have died, but the Frank that was always meant to be came forward in life, the life of Jesus, and that life more abundantly than I could have ever imagined.................bro Frank

awakened writes

I understand and agree with brother Franks definition and clarifications as it pertains to surrendering our lives to the Lord at salvation...

But on a different note...I don't think using the term "absolute" is appropriate or even wise to use for any stage of a believers growth in Christ. Only Christ can and did "absolutely" surrender to the Father. Absolute is a very strong word for it means to be free from imperfection or mixture, pure, unmitigated...unquestionable.

By definition of the word then, none of us will ever truly be "absolutely' anything until we are glorified and forever with the Lord.

I think the first disciples were the closest to being absolutely surrendered to the Lord. But can we say that of ourselves? Are we making disciples day in and day out? Witnessing to all and sundry everywhere we go? Building the Kingdom of God as our one and only pursuit in life? Have we forsaken all to follow Christ...sold all our possessions and done away with any dependence on this worlds goods? Are we offering our very bodies for the gospel...shedding our blood in this life if necessary?

To me that is absolute surrender...others may have a different definition. But please note, I am not suggesting for a moment that a person is not saved if they do not stack up against that definition. We are saved by faith in Christ alone, not by our works, lest any man should boast.

I fully agree with that post and found the second part to be quite convicting of much lukewarmness in my walk in terms of selling all for the gospel’s sake. May God help me to be more sold out to His cause.

I believe PaulWest has made some very good points on looking to Christ as our all in all. As 1Cor.1:30 tells us, "But of Him you are in Christ Jesus, who became for us wisdom from God--and righteousness and sanctification and redemption””".

That said, and I’m sure PaulWest would agree, there is definitely a part that we play. For example, AbideinHim posted Matthew 16:24, "Then said Jesus unto his disciples, If any man would come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me." Again, I believe PaulWest stated well that we come to Jesus for all we need. In light of that truth I would see the denying of ourselves, the taking up of our cross and following Him to be simultaneous, joint actions; an act of the will whereby we come to Christ in full surrender as best as we know how.

I like what Paul Washer has said about having an encounter with God. He says that someone who claims they've had a real encounter with God yet displays no radical change is like someone who claims to have gotten hit by a big logging truck yet displays no change.

Here's the full quote in case anyone wants it:

"Let’s imagine that I [Paul Washer] show up late and I run up here on the platform and all the leaders are angry with me and say, "Brother Paul, don’t you appreciate the fact that we’re giving you the opportunity to speak here and you come late!?”

And I say, "Brothers, you have to forgive me.”

"Well, why?”

"Well, I was out here on the highway and I was driving and I had a flat tire and I got out to change the tire and when I was changing the tire the lug nut fell off and I wasn’t paying attention that I was on the highway and I ran out and I grabbed the lug nut and soon as I picked it up in the middle of the highway I stood up and there was a 30-ton logging truck going 120 miles an hour about 10 yards in front of me and it ran me over, and that’s why I’m late.”

Now, there would only be two logic- …. I know no one studies logic anymore, but there would only be two logical conclusions:

1. I’m a liar

or

2. I’m a madman

You would say, "Brother Paul, it’s absolutely absurd. It is impossible, brother Paul, to have an encounter with something as large as a logging truck and not be changed!”

And then my question would be to you, What is larger? A logging truck, or God?

How is it that so many people today profess to have had an encounter with Jesus Christ and yet they are not permanently changed?!"

Well Frank I really enjoyed reading your testimony it reminded me of my own experience the radical change that happens at conversion.

For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God. Rom 8:14

The word for LED in this verse properly means, "to be GOVERNED." From this we see that Paul is talking about much more than, "leadings." Paul is not saying that the sons of God are those who walk around from here to there being LED by the voice of God to do this or that. I’m not saying this doesn’t happen”“ I’m just saying that this isn’t the characteristic of the sons of God that Paul is describing in this verse.

Paul is saying that anyone who is a son of God is going to be GOVERNED by the Spirit of God. He is talking about what rules your life ”“ the flesh, or the Holy Spirit. Read Romans 8 and you will see that this is precisely the context: Flesh vs. Spirit, and which GOVERNS us. This is much different than any possible, "leadings."

Since therefore it remains for some to enter it, and those who formerly received the good news failed to enter because of disobedience Heb 4:6

That word disobedience is apeitheia that means obstinacy, obstinate opposition to the divine will.

God will bring us to the point were we will see that we are not being governed by the Spirit, that in us there is a obstinate opposition to his divine will, it is all a part of God doing whatever it takes in us to bring us into the Truth. Yet this reduction in our lives is for an end and it is only when we come to the place where we might despair about ourselves that we will finally say to God like Job, "I abhor myself"

It is then faced with a choice of being ruled by the flesh or the Sprit that God would have us say, "Therefore, I give all of myself wholly unto you” and your set free and enter into the promised rest, which is simply being governed by the Spirit of God.

That said, and I’m sure PaulWest would agree, there is definitely a part that we play. For example, AbideinHim posted Matthew 16:24, "Then said Jesus unto his disciples, If any man would come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me." Again, I believe PaulWest stated well that we come to Jesus for all we need. In light of that truth I would see the denying of ourselves, the taking up of our cross and following Him to be simultaneous, joint actions; an act of the will whereby we come to Christ in full surrender as best as we know how.

That said, it may surprise some of you when I say I don't remember conscientiously "surrendering" my life to God when I got saved. A series of events caused by my sin brought me to a point where God revealed His Son to me, my heart broke in a trillion pieces, and His grace was absolutely irresistible. What else could an awakened mortal man do coming face to face with the atonement? I could no more resist the affects of His love than a wax crayon could resist melting in a blast furnace. One unfettered look at Jesus Christ the King of the Universe hanging on the cross for my sin was all it took.

Now, since my conversion, I have had to learn about the way of the cross. But it has been a progressive tutorial, with lots of ups and downs (with more downs than ups, to be brutally honest), but over the past four years, since the Lord has given me light on New Covenant grace, there are now more ups than downs. And each year is more and more glorious. I do understand what our dear Brother Frank is conveying here. It is very good to discuss these things, and I think this thread has been very edifying thus far.

Keep up the great work, my brethren!

amen paul amen ,,,,that's what I was trying to say in my post but in different words that sounds like my testimony ,,no conscience surrender at the first
......
it is a form of love your god with all your mind heart soul and strength ,,,and this must to worked out in our actions before god and men
.......
I think we surrendered more and more of our selves and our life to god as we grow in grace , and the lord shows more and more that we have not yielded to him

I think we need to be carful not to aply our own conversion as a blue print over every others saints conversion experience and think that it needs to be exactly the same as our own or they not saved

blessings

Actually I dont think there is anything missing in this conversation.

Love was the catalyst. Indeed, my relinquishing was automatic, and as natural as a breath of air when I took my first unfettered glimpse at the cross. There was no conscious effort of surrender like there is now, in pursuing the way of the cross.

So if I am reading you correctly there was a " relinquishing."

just to let you know frank ,,im not at all against your view of conversion im sure it is valid

paul i like the word cling when the love of god came upon me and the peace that passes all under standing was born ,,I lached on and clinged to jesus and at that moment let go of what ever weapons was in my hands,,,,for me that was a joy filled surrender in that context ,,,,but I never realised what I was doing ,,,just being caught up in the moment of faith ,that first real moment of faith ,when the presence of god constrained me

to be honest I never even new the bible called me to give up my oun life and deni my self so it wasn't a surrendering in that context ,,,,,I wrestled with that a couple of years later and made a certaint conscience decision and recived what I call the baptisim of the holy spirit or some might call a great filling with the spirit ,,that helped transform me even more and ever thing became more real like the fear of god grew greatly and a seriousness was becoming strong in my soul and conviction of sin became unavoidable ,,and then the wrestling with new levels of surrendering my life, have continued till now ,,with victory's and defeats ,,,victories showing me how powerful god is to grant repentance and release from besetting sin ,,and defeats showing me how mercifully god really is ,,,and breaking my confidence in the flesh and developing a hate for sin and the flesh

blessings

Greeting Frank

This topic has been on my heart and mind. I have not read through each of the posts but find myself questioning some things in my own heart and life. You spoke about surrendering all when you came first came to CHRIST in one of the post. As I look back over my time with JESUS I realize the desire has always been there. I feel it even now to give my life to HIM to follow and walk with HIM but deep down beneath it all I still feel like some part of me is holding back too??? I can't even say that I know what it is that I am holding on to, just this knowing that there is still more of me that needs to die to self. This deep pressing on my heart to let go, to relinquish all control of my life unto HIM. To die completely to this notion of "rights" and to just simply walk in the reality that HE is LORD of my life.

How can one truly surrender all in a moment and then see later that there was still areas of my life that I did not surrender unto HIM? I realize that even in seeing these things it only because of HIS mercy that HE allows me to, with out HIM I would be lost and blind to these things but I don't want to keep holding on, or holding back??? If I come to HIM today and I pray surrendering all in what my limited eyes know and understand and then in time FATHER reveals to me there is still more that I must surrender to HIM is that truly what is meant by "surrender all"???

thank you for sharing this it has given me much to pray and think on
God bless
mj

Quote: We must go through many trials to fathom these deep places and through many betrayals towards God Himself and very deep repentances, before we really see how wicked the human heart and mind are.

That’s what I was alluding to when I said at the start of the thread "Personally I think we are deluding ourselves if we say we absolutely surrendered at conversion". As we just don’t know the depths of wickedness in our own hearts.

As someone honestly said: This concept challenges me every time I tend to argue with the Holy Spirit when He tells me to do something I do not want to do.

This is why I said in my last post (not to condemn anyone but to try and bring out the truth) "For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God. Rom 8:14” The word for LED in this verse properly means, "to be GOVERNED."

Can we truly claim to be Absolutely Surrendered where the Holy Spirit doesn’t GOVERNS us, when we fight and resist the Spirit of God in our lives and are not surrendered? Yet I fully understand what Frank saying about his conversion experience and that we are not are own and that we have bought with a price.

With that said what I am trying to bring out is the opposition to the Spirit of God by the flesh, Gal 5:17 "For the desires of the flesh are against the Spirit, and the desires of the Spirit are against the flesh, for these are opposed to each other, to keep you from doing the things you want to do”

We see that very clearly in the quote above "I tend to argue with the Holy Spirit when He tells me to do something I do not want to do” but at the same time in them there would have been a desire to do what God wanted them to do as they are born again.

The word to describe what that person honestly confessed is disobedience, which brings me to the point I mentioned earlier in this thread, Heb 4:6 which tells us the Israelites didn’t enter into his rest due to disobedience. The word for disobedience in greek is apeitheia which means obstinacy, obstinate opposition to the divine will.

Think about that for a moment "obstinate opposition to the divine will” hinders you from being allowed into the deep things of God, from truly being Christ like in our actions.

Scripture says: whoever says he abides in him ought to walk in the same way in which he walked. 1 John 2:6

That scripture is a uncompromisingly high standard and it should challenge us if we think about how Christ walked, who was a man governed by the Holy Spirit, can we so glibly claim "we abide in Christ”, then prove it by your walk. Think about he was tempted in all points and sinned not!!!!! Think about he humbled himself and was obedient unto death, think about it he did nothing by himself, he only did what he saw the Father doing and yet we have the audacity to say we are absolutely surrendered at conversion, while at the same time there remains in us obstinate opposition to the divine will. Don’t take it personnel or be offended but the life we claim to have has to be more than words it should show forth in our every day walk, we should walk as he walked.

With all that said Absolute Surrender, as I understand it is the total surrender of the obstinate opposition to the divine will of God, which lives in us, so that we can truly be governed by the Spirit of God. It is a place was we truly and honestly can claim we "abide in Christ” and the proof of that life is that we will walk as he walked.

In the flesh, I don't know if I have reached absolute surrender, but God does, I will let God be the judge of that. Most of us give ourselves way to much credit on our relationship with him. To me absolute surrender would involve a powerful prayer life, how many threads do you see here on Prayer one in twenty? Thousands dying over in Iran and Iraq today, were is the Prayer thread on that? Were more concerned about our absolute surrender, you know "self stuff" than Prayer for folks dying, have any of us really absolute surrendered to Christ? if so can we also say we believe God would agree with us?

I was reading some C.H. Spurgeon writings on an unrelated topic and happened to come across this:

"A man is not saved against his will, but he is made willing by the operation of the Holy Ghost. A mighty grace which he does not wish to resist enters into the man, disarms him, makes a new creature of him, and he is saved."

I think this statement is fairly succinct and accurate to my conversion "experience" as it relates to surrender: as Spurgeon puts it, a willingness to concede, precipitated wholly by God.

"My point if I have one, is that it is ALL Him, it is ALL His doing! From the moment we awaken unto Him and for the rest of our days as He sanctifys us, everything really becomes or should be about the WORK of the Holy Spirit in our lives. I am convinced that the difference between coming easy unto the Lord or coming the hard way...is really the extent to which we we surrender, and by that I mean YIELD to the Holy Spirit."

"A man is not saved against his will, but he is made willing by the operation of the Holy Ghost. A mighty grace which he does not wish to resist enters into the man, disarms him, makes a new creature of him, and he is saved."

Brother Mark and Paul,

I agree with you brothers concerning the work of the Holy Spirit in salvation, and even in our absolute surrender to the Lord. Too often we have made salvation and even surrender a matter of the will. How often has it been said "make a decision to receive Christ?" The will of man is needed in both salvation and absolute surrender but without the work of the Holy Spirit, it is impossible for either one of these events to occur.

"No man can come to me, unless The Father who has sent me will draw him, and I shall raise him in the last day.”(John 6:44).

"For it is God which works in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure." (Philippians 2:13)

God does need our cooperation. He needs us to be in agreement as to His plans and purpsoses in our life, but it is the Spirit of God working in us and through us that makes this a reality.

Mike

I do understand that we don't all have the same exact kind of conversion experience in terms of some of the details. However, there are certain basic and essential elements that always accompany true conversion. Scripture is filled with "evidences" of true conversion.

I'd say based on God's Word some of those elements are the following, and I won't say there is a certain sequential order for them, I'm simply numbering them for reference:

1. An awakening to the true holiness of God like never before. Before conversion we think of God in human terms in various ways. Some see Him as some kind of buddy they can approach casually or flippantly, some see Him as a Santa Claus whom they can ask for anything, others see Him as a distant, austere man ready to punish them at any moment, etc.

2. An awakening to the awesome love of God displayed ultimately in the cross of Christ. This majestic love softens and humbles us like nothing else can. Like Scripture declares the goodness of God leads us to repentance.

3. An awakening to the seriousness of our sin before God like never before. There must be a deep sense of conviction of sin wrought by the Holy Spirit before one is born again. Along with this kind of awakening comes a deep sorrow for sin like never before and a new desire and determination to turn from all known sin. That is biblical repentance without which we will perish. Like Paul Washer says if you don't have a new relationship with sin you don't have a new relationship with God.

True conversion will always result in a radically transformed life. My concern is with salvation testimonies which mention no such change in the person's life. We hear these kinds of testimonies all the time. Someone will say they "accepted" Jesus as their personal Savior without receiving Him as Lord yet, but that flies in the face of so many Scriptures that declare you cannot have Christ as Savior without having Him as Lord.

Thanks Frank. I do want to clarify something on the third point there. I wrote:

"There must be a deep sense of conviction of sin wrought by the Holy Spirit before one is born again."

Some may observe that the deep conviction of sin takes place during the true conversion experience, as part of the new birth and not prior to it. I do lean toward that view myself. Yet there may be multiple instances where the Holy Spirit convicts us of sin prior to the new birth yet those instances do not lead to salvation at the moment.

So I would distinguish between conviction of sin that accompanies salvation on the one hand, and conviction of sin that is prior to conversion and which may or may not ultimately lead to salvation.

So maybe a better way to have stated it would have been in saying the deep conviction must be part of the conversion experience, without which one cannot be born again. Just thought I should clarify that even though it is a heady theological point.

"True conversion will always result in a radically transformed life. My concern is with salvation testimonies which mention no such change in the person's life. We hear these kinds of testimonies all the time. Someone will say they "accepted" Jesus as their personal Savior without receiving Him as Lord yet, but that flies in the face of so many Scriptures that declare you cannot have Christ as Savior without having Him as Lord."

Brother, I wish that every believer would be radically transformed when they receive Christ, but this is often not the case.

When one receives Christ and is born again, they become a new creation. There is a transformation as for as there sprit is concerned, because it is the spirit of a man that is born again. However, the soul is not transformed at the new birth. You still have the same mind, although it is now enlightened by the Holy Spirit. You still have the same emotions, although now you can experience the love, peace, and joy of the Lord in your emotions. You still have the same will, but now your will is is in the process of wanting God's will in your life. The new birth takes place in a second at regeneration, but the renewing of the mind is a process. For many the radical transformation takes place with the renewing of the mind. (Romans 12:2)

I have seen Christians take off like a shooting star when they were born again, yet some today are not even serving the Lord, and I have also seen Christians have a terrible struggle with the flesh and sin after they were born again, but today they are living radically transformed and consecrated lives.

Mike

Brother Mike, I don’t think we disagree much if any. You wrote, "I have also seen Christians have a terrible struggle with the flesh and sin after they were born again, but today they are living radically transformed and consecrated lives.”

I believe the key is in the word struggle. A true believer does indeed struggle with sin, and that struggle or "battle” against sin will continue throughout our entire walk as we grow in Christ from faith to faith and from glory to glory. We will have ups and downs and some of us will grow into maturity and Christlikeness more rapidly than others of us. But we will all grow in grace if it is genuine conversion. There will be a new bent of our will toward God like never before. There will be a hunger and thirst after righteousness and a poverty of spirit. This will all flow from the love of Christ which constrains us and a genuine awareness of who He truly is. We will want to obey the Lord out of love and sincere gratitude and reverence for the Lord.

On the other hand a non-believer or false convert will not really struggle or battle against all sin from a sense of the love of God or a genuine reverence for Him. Many who claim to know the Lord are very comfortable in their sins and make excuses for them instead of being contrite over them. This reveals an attitude of enmity against God and reveals they are not born again. Or they may exert themselves and strive to be righteous out of wrong selfish motives, not from a sense of the love of God or true honor or reverence for Him.

I think I would have been booted out your church Oracio.. for refusing to jump through all those hoops.

For me it was simple faith that God was well able to change me...

"God change me, I am fed up being like this" was my prayer of salvation.

murrcolr writes:

I think I would have been booted out your church Oracio.. for refusing to jump through all those hoops.

For me it was simple faith that God was well able to change me...

"God change me, I am fed up being like this" was my prayer of salvation.

Jesus said, "By their fruit you shall know them."

What I was trying to do is briefly explain in some detail some of the marks of genuine conversion, and you summed it all up with that example of a sincere prayer from the heart. It reminded me of the tax collector's prayer, "God be merciful to me a sinner."

Remember, the book of 1John is devoted to giving multiple tests of true conversion. Would you also call those tests "hoops"?

apollus writes

I believe there have been many good thoughts on this subject, kinda like a jewel that has mutliple facets to it. I think the key thing to remember is not to confuse the lead up to salvation and the aftermath of salvation. One leads to justification and the other is all sanctification......bro Frank

But then comes the practical process of sanctification where the daily purging from sin comes into play. That process of sanctification is the litmus test of whether or not we have been justified or in other words received the forgiveness of our sins through faith in Christ. If you have been truly justified or saved you will be sanctified, and if you are being sanctified it means you have been justified, for you cannot have one without the other.

Amen Frank! Indeed no need to have masters or doctorates if we have the Master and great Physician of our souls! Praise God for His indescribable Gift!

Quick disclaimer: Not knocking those who have masters or doctorates because I know God can use that training for His glory! But many do place too much trust and dependence on those things and not on the Holy Ghost.

oraco ,ill put a spanner in the works

I herd paul washer say something similar

I was never realy convicted of deep sin before or leading up to conversion ,,,just I very light general new I was a sinner I was drug using so I knew I was doing wrong

but the day I was born of gods love and faith was ingnighted in my heart I was still not strongly convicted of sin ,,,,,,oh no this sounds like false conversion

but the next day ,oh boy ,,the revalation of the holiness of Christ smited me right between the eyes ,,,and I was convicted as unholy in my flesh ,,and the whole world in my eyes was evil ,,it was strange ,, but it was the presence of gods love that wrought this ,,so I felt at the same time a joy and a closeness with god

but even tho my conversion was like that ,,,I think the general and normal way is conviction of sin first before conversions ,,that what I teach anyways

Quote: Would you also call those tests "hoops"?

I wouldn't call whats in 1 John tests, I would call them standards, that would be the difference.

A test is either a pass or a fail, a standard would be something to aim for.

Now looking at I John I would say I fall short of the standard, but I haven't failed, as I am saved, it just means that there is more work to be done by the Holy Spirit in me.

If you say "1John is devoted to giving multiple tests of true conversion" and I fail the tests the next question that could be brought up is was I truly converted? Then the next thing that comes along would be the temptation to add works to your salvation.

brothagary writes:

oraco ,ill put a spanner in the works

I herd paul washer say something similar

I was never realy convicted of deep sin before or leading up to conversion ,,,just I very light general new I was a sinner I was drug using so I knew I was doing wrong

but the day I was born of gods love and faith was ingnighted in my heart I was still not strongly convicted of sin ,,,,,,oh no this sounds like false conversion

but the next day ,oh boy ,,the revalation of the holiness of Christ smited me right between the eyes ,,,and I was convicted as unholy in my flesh ,,and the whole world in my eyes was evil ,,it was strange ,, but it was the presence of gods love that wrought this ,,so I felt at the same time a joy and a closeness with god

but even tho my conversion was like that ,,,I think the general and normal way is conviction of sin first before conversions ,,that what I teach anyways

Before being born again I had a false conversion experience and the hardest thing for me was owning that I had been deceived for that time period. I had to humble myself and own that my heart had deceived me. I'm not saying that for sure you had a false conversion that night which you described. But I'm saying to me it is possible, or it is possible you may not remember the conviction that may have actually been there after all.

murrcolr writes:

I wouldn't call whats in 1 John tests, I would call them standards, that would be the difference.

A test is either a pass or a fail, a standard would be something to aim for.

Now looking at I John I would say I fall short of the standard, but I haven't failed, as I am saved, it just means that there is more work to be done by the Holy Spirit in me.

If you say "1John is devoted to giving multiple tests of true conversion" and I fail the tests the next question that could be brought up is was I truly converted? Then the next thing that comes along would be the temptation to add works to your salvation.

Brother, I'll give one example from 1John to try to explain what I mean. 1John2:3-4 says, "Now by this we know that we know Him, if we keep His commandments. He who says, "I know Him," and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him."

That passage teaches us that one of the marks or evidences of a child of God is that he/she keeps His commandments. We know that that cannot mean sinless perfection because it would mean that unless you are sinless you do not know God and that would be false teaching. What that passage teaches us is that if you know God your life will be characterized by a pattern of keeping His commandments, a way of life radically distinct from the life of the unsaved. Another way of saying it (which is outlined in 1John 3) is that he who is born again does not practice sin as a way of life.

While I would agree that that is a standard for us to aim for, I'd also say it is clearly an evidence which God's Word teaches us to look for to discern if we are born again.

no i never repented from sin and repented towrds god before regenation it wasnt till i was givern the gift of believeing in him ,which is faith ,,that night and the next day conviction came and repentence came for me ,,,

i could not repent in the flesh ,i could not repent towards god when i didnt realy believe in him so i needed the gift of faith that was granted to me ,,,eveything that happend before regenreration was not exeptable or pleaseing to god ,,becasue it came from the flesh and was a weak pathetic substatute to real repentance and faith

i see true repentence and faith is not produced by the flesh ,,,but only comes from the iner man the new man

the carnal man canot recieve the things of the spirit nor can he please go in any way shape or form

but i do believe the spirit of god was drawing me to god in a supanatural way befor regeneration that was so obvious, though i never new what to call it ,,but it didnt cause my flesh to believe and repent ,,,my flesh was full of doubt and lies and pride ,,,god drove a great spike through my flesh and crusafied it the day i was born againg ,,then and only then did i do anything pleaseing to the absalute holy god

but like i said i dont think that was nomale way to be converted ,,,like paul i dont think he had a nomal conversion either ,,,,,

when i take about salvation like that some might say that it sounds even worse then reformed theoligy were faith is a gift and our free will is in bondage and we a totaly depraved and grace is irasistable ,,,

but i believe in at least four points of calvinisim so to speak accoring to my own conversion experence and how i see scripture ,,,but my iterpration of those four points may differ ever so slightly i dont realy know becase iv never realy studied calvinism ,,only herd some sermons from calvinists ,,like waher, piper ,sproul and read some stuff on the inter net

blessings

I greatly appreciate this discussion.

So if someone were to ask, "How do I become a Christian?", how would you answer them?

Just believe in Christ? Have Christ as Lord? Absolute surrender? Lordship salvation?

Some verses which I believe are relevant: John 6:29, Acts 10:43, Acts 15:6-11

yuehan writes:

I greatly appreciate this discussion.

So if someone were to ask, "How do I become a Christian?", how would you answer them?

Just believe in Christ? Have Christ as Lord? Absolute surrender? Lordship salvation?

Some verses which I believe are relevant: John 6:29, Acts 10:43, Acts 15:6-11

When preaching the gospel we cannot leave out repentance or we will sugar coat it and potentially produce false converts as myriads have been produced in these modern times. We cannot simply tell people they only need to "believe" to be saved because the word "believe" or "faith" is largely misunderstood to mean "easy-believism" these days. We must also explain repentance as Scripture declares.

Those who preach easy believism hone in on the scriptures that only mention faith and completely ignore the ones that mention repentance as being necessary for salvation along with faith. They go together.

We must be like the apostle Paul who told the Ephesians he did not shrink back from declaring to them the whole counsel of God (Acts 20:27).

Some may observe I may seem pretty passionate about this and I am because the true gospel of the Lord Jesus Christ is at stake and I know that sugar-coating it causes serious harm to the souls of men.

Amen Frank! I thought I should share the link to a thread from last year dealing with the topic of repentance in case anyone is not aware of it and may be interested:

https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=48289&forum=36&57

appolus writes:

So, avoiding theological terms, this might be a good time for our own personal testimonies of how we came to Jesus, not so much the personal details of our old life, but the point where we stepped from death into His marvelous light...........bro Frank

Well, He had mercy on me concerning that hardship and I was very joyful and thankful that He answered my prayer and came through in my time of desperation. I also felt obligated to keep my promise so I stayed away from the gang scene and started attending church. I loved listening to the sermons at church. I kept my new faith to myself because I figured it was no one else’s business. Looking back, even though I gave up certain vices such as drugs, alcohol, and gang violence I still practiced and had a love for other kinds of sins such as fornication and listening to gangster rap. I had no clue those things were sins and never found out at that time. The thought of reading the Bible at home didn’t even cross my mind. This "religious” experience lasted about two months, till I got bored of it and went back to my old ways only to get worse than ever.

It was not till the age of 22, while being incarcerated, that I had a true awakening to God like never before and passed from death to life, from darkness to light. It was during a chapel service in prison as the choir was singing a song that had lyrics which said, "Yes, He’s worthy!” As I meditated on those lyrics it hit me like a bombshell that Jesus Christ is indeed worthy of all my worship. I thought about all the times He had been so good to me, so merciful and kind toward me as I lived in total depravity. All those times I could have been shot and killed and already justly in hell. All those times I acted so wickedly against Him after all His goodness and love toward me. I also realized He is so holy and not Someone to play games with.

It was then and there that I raised the white flag of surrender and said, "Lord, if you are willing to forgive such a wretch like me here I am, take my life and do with it as you please. I don’t want to run from you any longer, I’m tired of it.” The tears couldn’t stop flowing down my cheeks. That was on Nov. 8th, 1998. Sure I’ve fallen into sin and had ups and downs since then. Sure I’ve been tempted to give up and throw in the towel. But every time the thought has burned in my heart and mind, "Where else can I go, You alone have the words of eternal life.”

appolus/Frank writes:

I remember being very aware of what I was offering up, nothing, nothing of any value to any one in the world, in fact quite the opposite. Yet to God our heavenly Father, whose love had hit me like a freight train, I realized just how valuable it was to Him.....Jesus, His Son on the cross.

I just gave my testimony sorry it wasn't to your likening and sorry it sounded like theology ,,,,I agree with tozer when he said ,you cant please everyone ,so I try to please know one ,lol I wont change my glorious conversion experience to please any sorry brother ,,that would be a men pleasers and lieing

your welcome,,, i like how god is verry hard to nail down or box in when it comes to coversion,,,its like he will do it his way in his time ,,and it will allways suprises us or upset us a little ,,becasue he did it a littel diffent in others then in us ,,i like the apostals pauls conversion wam bam thank you mam ,, now go preach

lol it makes me happy and giggle when i think back its still fresh ,,,,i was born with a bible in my hand ,,so you could imagine im verry biast when it comes to the bible ,,it was the first thing i saw and his sweet sweet presence was the first thing i felt i dont know if felt is the right word ,,it was more like i saw that in some strange way it was that real ,,,,when i think about it i shake my head still and wonder why he did that to a wretcherd man like me ,,how totaly undeserving i am ,it is beoned words how undeserving i am of gods grace ,,and that feels it so right to feel that way that words fail to describe that fully as well

Quote: My conversion was like that; it was when I saw the Lord on the cross in my mind's eye, and His holy presence filled the room and knew that He had done it for me, that repentance came and I knew that I was a sinner.

We will never really know anything about surrender until we understand what John 3:16 means, "For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son”. God completely and absolutely gave Himself to us. In our surrender, we must give ourselves to God in the same way He gave Himself for us totally, unconditionally, and without reservation.

I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service. Roms 12:1

A. "I beseech you” the verb used here is a strong word and very hard to render into English "I beg you earnestly,” or "I entreat you,” or "I exhort you.” It has a deep meaning, as if God were on His knees before His people, begging them to give themselves over to Him.

B. "Brethren” tells of who Paul was speaking to, and that to become a living sacrifice, you must at first be saved!

C. "Bodies” is the term for the whole man ... Body, soul and spirit!

D. "Holy, acceptable unto God.” Old Testament sacrifices were without spot and that’s how God wants us! Then he says, "Which is your reasonable service.” God doesn’t ask us to do anything unreasonable!

brothagary, I did not realize you were "technically sharing your testimony”. I thought you were giving a very brief account of your conversion and sharing some of your views on Calvinism. But thanks for sharing. The way God works in our lives is sometimes so deep it is hard to understand or explain it.

Respectfully brothers and sisters, the thing we must keep in mind is that we cannot base our beliefs on our feelings or sentiments which can deceive us. We must stand upon the solid foundation of God’s Word because He cannot lie. We must test our feelings, sentiments and experiences in light of His infallible Word. If our experience or belief contradicts the clear teaching of the Word, guess who’s wrong? Like Jeremiah said, the heart is deceitful above all things and desperately wicked.

Repentance and faith are like two sides of the same coin. You cannot have one without the other. In saving faith we look to and trust in the Lord Jesus Christ, as Frank posted we entrust our souls into His hand. At the same time that we do that, we look away from, and turn from our old self-life. It’s a u turn, as we gaze upon and turn to the One who loved us and gave Himself for us.

Regarding the issue of smoking, I remember Chuck Smith saying that if you are saved smoking cigarettes will not damn you to hell, it will only bring you to heaven quicker. Some of you may be familiar with the account of Spurgeon and Moody meeting one time in Spurgeon’s office. The story goes that as Spurgeon pulled out one of his cigars and lit it Moody pointed at the cigar and said, "That offends me.” Then Spurgeon looks at Moody and points at his(Moody's) big belly and says, "That offends me.”

I have enjoyed participating in this thread and want to thank brother Frank for opening it and everyone else who has posted. Before this thread gets buried never to return I want to share a brief example from experience of how our hearts and feelings can deceive us. And I'd like to give a disclaimer beforehand. I don’t share this in order to say for sure that anyone’s experience was a false conversion. I’m throwing this out in case anyone reading this might possibly be trusting in a false conversion experience in which they are being deceived.

In that brief testimony I shared, I mentioned a religious experience I had at the age of 18. What I didn’t mention there was that when I cried out to God at that time I had an overwhelming sense of the loving presence of God at that moment. I felt as if I could hear God saying to me, "I love you son, trust in Me.” I do not doubt that that was a real encounter with the living God in which I experienced His mercy in a great measure. I also experienced a certain kind of "repentance” on account of my sins but it was because I felt I had been caught and was being punished. It was not genuine saving repentance but a worldly sorrow leading to spiritual death which the Bible mentions.

And after that I really believed with all my heart that I was right with God for those two months of going to church and abstaining from certain vices. After I really got born again at the age of 22 I struggled with accepting that I had had a false conversion. After all, it had seemed so real, and who wants to admit they were deceived with a false religious experience? But upon serious reflection in light of God’s Word I realized and acknowledged it was a false conversion and it became more clear afterward.

I am interested in your testimony, and I have a couple of questions.

Oracio Quote: It was not genuine saving repentance.

What would define as genuine saving repentance?

Oracio Quote: I struggled with accepting that I had had a false conversion.

Who told you your conversion was false in the first instance?

murrcolr, I'll do my best to answer those questions asap. Unfortunately, I have to run right now and don't know when I'll be able to sit down again to post. God bless.

im not sure if your are saying that oraco to me becasue of what i said about my conversion ,,,somtimes i wish people would just say exact who they are talking about instead of giving hints,,it save us wasting our time wondering and responding

definitly i would not go by feelings ,,,,,

but we do have the witness of the spirit and the peace that passes all understanding and the joy unspeakable as evedences and these can probable be defined as feelings ,,,so i wouldn jump to any conculsions and assume some one had a false conversion just becasue you think you did and becasue some one talks abou the the wintess of the spirit and joy and peace ,becasue that is a deviding line between a carnal man and a spiritual man who has been reborn ,,,,,we should never ever lesen the substance of thoses thing in favour of other fruits of the spirit ,,,,becasue fruits are fruits the bible does not elavaite some fruit above others ,,,just becase some people emphises one group of fruits rather then others doesnt indacate they had a fasle conversion ,,,we need to watch out for judging wrongly due to our own perceived experence

also with converion we must also give room for back sliding ,,,which can and does accour in a persons life and somtimes verry near there conversion ,,this can and does give a fasle view of a persons standing ,,,,,fruits need to be looked at, from the past present and into the future to to get a good view of the life stile of our selfs or others ,,,if we look at a christian who has fallen into sin like the one in the leter of corinthians ,,,,many would say look look ,see he has bad fruit ,,is not realy a christian ,,,but if we look at the leters of paul we see he is a brothers in christ and not a fasle brethern ,,as in the leter of john ,,where it say they went out from us becasue they were NOT OF US if they were OF US they would have continued WITH US

things are only black and white in there right context

brother Frank, thanks for sharing that testimony, I was very encouraged by it.

murrcolr writes:

I am interested in your testimony, and I have a couple of questions.

Oracio Quote: It was not genuine saving repentance.

What would define as genuine saving repentance?

Oracio Quote: I struggled with accepting that I had had a false conversion.

Who told you your conversion was false in the first instance?

In answer to your first question, "What would you define as genuine saving repentance?",

in 2 Cor.7:10 it says, "For godly sorrow produces repentance leading to salvation, not to be regretted; but the sorrow of the world produces death.”

So there are two kinds of sorrows in response to sin, one leading to salvation and one leading to death. As I searched the Scriptures and allowed the Lord to search my heart it became clear to me that I had had a woldly sorrow leading to death during that time. I was in a serious hardship and wanted out, and I felt God was punishing me for my wicked ways. I was like a criminal who had been caught red-handed and cried in front of the judge begging to be pardoned. Many criminals are like that. They cry and beg the judge to have mercy on them but they are not really sorry for their crimes, they are only sorry that they got caught. And they will pretend to be sorry in order to receive a lenient sentence. They will try to bribe the judge in any way they possibly can.

On the other hand a godly sorrow is an acknowledgment that one has committed high treason against the One who has only shown kindness toward them. It’s like saying, "how could I have turned my back and acted so wickedly against such a loving and merciful God?” A clear example of worldy vs godly sorrow is in the accounts of Judas and Peter. One led to despair and suicide and the other led to the Lord for restoration.

In answer to your second question, "Who told you your conversion was false in the first instance?",

the simplest answer is that God told Me as I searched the Scriptures and He revealed my deceived heart. It was undeniable once I was open and humbled myself to that possibility as opposed to refusing to consider it possible.

Like I said, my motive in crying out to God was the wrong motive of trying to mainly escape God’s temporal punishment and trying to bribe Him to be lenient toward me. Also, even though I started attending church services and stopped some of my heinous sins I still continued in other serious sins like fornication and had no serious conviction or desire to turn from those sins at all during that whole time. I also had no desire to learn about God on my own even though I could have gotten a Bible easily if I didn’t yet have one collecting dust somewhere (I don’t remember if I had one collecting dust).

The main reason I started attending church and supposedly "serving God” was because I felt obligated to return God the favor of helping me in my time of need. I really thought I was doing God a favor and earning His favor. How foolish that was, to think I could do God a favor by attending church services and giving up certain vices!

I was like a reformed criminal(and I don’t mean Calvinist) who still was a criminal at heart. My heart had not really changed from loving sin to loving God because sin and the world were still way too attractive to me and God was too boring for me. So like it says in 1Pet.2:22 , I was like that dog that goes back to his own vomit and the pig that goes back to the mud. No, I was clearly deceived. I did not come to savingly know God during that time. I was still lost and hell-bound. I was a religious hypocrite who had a false conversion.

But oh, when I got born again at the age of 22, let me tell you, it was like night and day difference, the complete opposite of my false conversion experience. My Jesus became a gazillion times more precious to me than anything this world could offer. I could sing that hymn from the very depths of my being, "Oh, how I love Jesus, because He first loved me.” I began to have a hunger for the Word of God like never before. I began to learn more than ever what sin is and sincerely wanted no part of it. I hated my sin because I knew it nailed my Lord to that cross. I was still very much tempted and fell into sin but now there was true repentance and growing in holiness by God’s grace.

yea when you put it like that oraco it i would agree with ya sounds false ,,,,,,

you know i think when the gosple is presentd in a way that makes man the one who can repent and believe and clean his act up on more or less on his own then it will led to false conversions a plenty ,,,,,,,i think jesus and paul presented the gosple as the power of god to iniate repentence and faith and obedence

we cant truly please god in the flesh and do what he wants ,,we need jesus for 100 percent of salvation for the drawing ,for the igniting and for power to obey

im not trying to be nit picky,,,, 2 cor 7. 10 is a leter paul wrote to believers who were born again and back sliden in an area of life ,,,so the godly sorrow in this context was being produced in an already regenerat person and it leds to repenetence in that scence ,,,that is the christian walk ,,,,,a paternt of godliy sorrow that is leding us to the end of our faith ,the salvation of souls

rather then useing that as a proof text for initlal salvation ,,, i like to keep it in its contexual flow

Oracio - thanks for the detail it was an interesting read.

I think God was drawing you to him all along, you may responded with a wrong motives, but he was still at work and he kept on drawing you to him, were you eventually get to a point were you start searching for the truth, which you could say was a changed mindset from before. (repentance in a basic form), which led you into the truth, which at that point you could believe on Jesus unto salvation.

Looking back on my life, I can see points that God was drawing me but at the time I couldn't see it. I can remember a time in my bed which I had a gospel tract and said the prayer of salvation, I didn't get saved at that time but looking back he was drawing me in..

But for me it all came down to the point were I sought to find the truth, but even then it still God drawing me to him.

God is good.

Amen murrcolr.

brothagary, I was not specifically addressing that post about feelings to you per se. And I know that feelings play a valid role in our relationship with God. I am not invalidating your testimony as I do not know what the condition of your heart was at that time. What I was saying before is that if you were truly saved you repented and may not realize you did. I'm saying that the Bible is crystal clear that unless we repent we are lost and will perish in our sins. Now we can argue that point and may have to respectfully agree to disagree on it. But I'd say at that point the argument would be against the clear teaching of God's Word. I cannot lower the standard of the gospel and salvation. I cannot not stop teaching and preaching repentance as being necessary for salvation because God's Word is too clear on it.

Matthew Henry said, "Some people do not like to hear much of repentance; but I think it is so necessary that if I should die in the pulpit, I would desire to die preaching repentance, and if out of the pulpit I would desire to die practicing it."

Again, we can respectfully agree to disagree my brother. I do not for one moment question your current relationship with the Lord. May He continue to bless you and strengthen you in your walk.

brother i dont at all respect any so called christian that teaches we dont need to repent during a christian walk,, we differ on that by the sounds of it ,,and when true repentence accours ,weather it be a work of the flesh or a work of the spiritial man ,,,i not asked you to lower the stanadard of the gosple,,,,,,honestly i think we lower the standard of the gosple when we present it ina way that make man able in the flesh to change his mind about sin and GOD and act on that and turn from it REPENTENCE

I think jesus made it clear in the gosple of john the mystery of god turning hearts and through out the old and new testament and the letters of paul that there is no goodness and pleaesing god in the flesh nor can the flesh recieve the message of the gosple ,,,,,

im not saying this about you just generaly when i see the gosple presened it seems to give the idea to men that they have the power obeay and please god in them selfs ,,,,,and if the spirit is not moving to convert when that type of message is being preached ,,men will go home thinking he believes in god and now he jeust needs to clean his act up like a good jehvova witness does so the speak ,,,lead to a false conversion ,,,best we tell men they cant realy come to jesus unlessless god draws them the and grants repentence and faith and gives them a new heart to want to come to god and obey him ,,,and explain to them as jesus did to nicodeams,,,unless we are in a revivle atmosphear maby then we can shorten the gosple a littel knowing god is already doing the work

blessings to ya

The Law of Surrender By A.W. Tozer

The Bible says that we are to present our bodies "as living sacrifices, holy and pleasing to God." Of course, if you give your body, you give everything it contains. That means giving yourself wholly to God, and the idea of giving yourself wholly to God contains three laws. The first law is the law of surrender. If you do not surrender, it will be totally impossible for the Lord to do anything for you. Surgeons have to have the surrender of their patients. If I went to a surgeon and insisted that I was going to tell him how to do the job and not only that but stay awake and resist him, the surgeon could not work. It would be impossible. Surgeons must put their patients to sleep so they cannot resist, so they are in a state of surrender. That is the law of surrender. A more beautiful and biblical description is the story of the potter and the clay, which illustrates the law of surrender further. The potter has soft, yielding clay, but if the clay does not surrender, the potter cannot do a thing with it. If there are burnt places, hard places or unsurrendered places in the clay, though the potter be a genius in making vessels, the artist still could not make anything useful and beautiful out of an unyielding blob of clay. It is possible for an object to be useful but not beautiful, like a garbage can. It is also entirely possible to be beautiful and not useful, like the lily. The lily has no utilitarian place in the world. It is possible to have a vessel that is useful without being beautiful. The old cream crocks in our spring house on the farm were useful all right. You could pour the milk in them, wait for the cream to rise and skim it off. They were not beautiful, but they were quite useful. Everybody has in their home beautiful little knickknacks. They are utterly useless, simply to be enjoyed for their beauty. But God wants His vessels to be both useful and beautiful. If God is going to make those kinds of vessels out of us, however, we are going to have to yield to the law of surrender. Give yourself to God as a living sacrifice and let Him have you--all of you.

Oracio, smoking is a deliberate sin because it damages our lungs along with other things, whatever Smith said, but there can be problems with the thyroid that make it hard or near impossible to lose weight very quickly so you cannot compare the two unless the man is a gluten that is and Spurgeon I believe was portly himself. I cannot take a preacher seriously if he is obese and not on a diet.