How Can I Be Sure of My Salvation? by John MacArthur

There are two important tests in Scripture for a person to determine whether or not he or she is a true believer.

There is first of all an objective test, which asks, "Do I believe?" Ask yourself if you affirm the Scripture's record of the person and work of Jesus Christ. Do you believe that He is God manifest in the flesh? Do you believe that God saves sinners solely through the merits of Jesus Christ's obedient life and substitutionary death on the cross?

Second is the subjective or experiential test of assurance in which you ask yourself, "Is my faith real?" The apostle John's purpose in writing the epistle of 1 John was to give true believers assurance of their salvation (1 John 5:13). In that small epistle John gives several marks to distinguish a true believer.

Ӣ True believers walk in the light (1 John 1:6-7). The light here means both intellectual and moral truth. Ask, "Do I affirm the truths of Scripture, and desire to obey them?"

Ӣ True believers confess their sin (1:8-2:1) Confess here doesn't mean to recite every wrong that we have ever done. Rather, it means to agree with God about our sin. That means that true believers hate their sin; they don't love it. They acknowledge they are sinful, and yet they know they are forgiven.

Ӣ True believers keep His commandments (2:3-4; 5:2-3). The term here refers to a watchful, observant obedience. Here the believer desires to obey truths he deems precious. It involves a proactive approach to obedience-the Christian studies Scripture in order to understand and obey it.

Ӣ True believers love the brethren (2:9-11; 3:10, 14-15; 5:2). Ask yourself the question, "Do I love God's people and desire to be around them?"

Ӣ True believers affirm sound doctrine (2:20-23; 4:2,6). John here teaches that no true believer will fall into any serious, Christ-denying error or heresy.

Ӣ True believers follow after holiness (2:29; 3:3-4, 6-9). These verses certainly aren't talking about sinless perfection, or even the frequency or duration of sin. The term sin in these verses describes one who lives an immoral, ungodly, unrighteous life as a matter of continual practice, and carries the attitude of hardened hate for God's righteousness.

Ӣ True believers have the Holy Spirit (4:13; 5:10-11). This is an over-arching test summing up all the others. Is there evidence that the fruit of the Spirit is present in your life (Galatians 5:22-23)?

In summary, one's assurance of salvation does not need to be based on a past decision or an experience. It should rest first of all on one's faith in the objective truth of God's Word, Jesus Christ, and the gospel. Secondly, it should rest on the reality of a changed life marked by obedience, a love for Christ and His righteousness, and a hatred for sin. Take heart if these things are true in your life, and trust God to continue to work out His salvation in your life.

http://www.gty.org/resources/questions/QA165/how-can-i-be-sure-of-my-salvation

Jhn 1:12
But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, to those who believe in His name:

Jhn 1:13
who were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

"not of blood"

Jhn 8:39
They answered and said to Him, "Abraham is our father.” Jesus said to them, "If you were Abraham’s children, you would do the works of Abraham.

Jhn 8:42
Jesus said to them, "If God were your Father, you would love Me, for I proceeded forth and came from God; nor have I come of Myself, but He sent Me.

"nor of the will of the flesh"

Rom 8:5
For those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who live according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit.

Rom 8:6
For to be carnally minded is death, but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.

Rom 8:7
Because the carnal mind is enmity against God; for it is not subject to the law of God, nor indeed can be.

Rom 8:8
So then, those who are in the flesh cannot please God.

"nor the will of man"

1Co 3:6
I planted, Apollos watered, but God gave the increase.

1Co 3:7
So then neither he who plants is anything, nor he who waters, but God who gives the increase.

Salvation comes through the Holy Spirit.
Pro 8:4
"To you, O men, I call,
And my voice is to the sons of men.

Pro 8:5
O you simple ones, understand prudence,
And you fools, be of an understanding heart.

Pro 8:6
Listen, for I will speak of excellent things,
And from the opening of my lips will come right things;

Pro 8:7
For my mouth will speak truth;
Wickedness is an abomination to my lips.

Pro 8:8
All the words of my mouth are with righteousness;
Nothing crooked or perverse is in them.

Pro 8:9
They are all plain to him who understands,
And right to those who find knowledge.

Pro 3:5
Trust in the LORD with all your heart,
And lean not on your own understanding;

Pro 3:6
In all your ways acknowledge Him,
And He shall directfn your paths.

"And He shall direct your paths." This is salvation.

While millions rose from their seats and made the long walk to the altar to accept Christ in the Billy Graham crusades, only about 2% continued in relationship with Jesus. They were given the formula, they spoke the confession, and then a horrible thing happened.

They were told by the counsellor that they were now a Christian!

God reserves for Himself the right to tell a man that he is His son, and until that happens, no man can make the pronouncement. As Tozer once thundered in one of his sermons, "Accept Christ? The real question is, does He accept you?"

Paul to the Ephesians says "Once you believed you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise," meaning God responded to your petition and confirmed your acceptance. He even did the same for Jesus when John baptized Him in the Jordan.

God is looking for a relationship with a person in spiritual fullness, not just adding names to a list. It is only reasonable that He would initiate an interaction with His new believer to confirm the relationship, give an assurance of salvation, and commence the plan to bring His beloved home at the end.

For me, I have not been the same since I heard His voice.

Butters,

Assurance of salvation is not synonymous with having salvation.

What we don't want to do is teach assurance to those who are not saved. Period.

What we also don't want to do is having believers thinking: "oh, I must not be saved because I struggle with x or y."

I think that was the intent of this article.

Thank you Butters!

I believe that salvation is a covenant between God and a man, and just as a handshake deal is always backed up by the paperwork, so also a man has a right to know from God that his petition has been accepted.

Paul's words to the Ephesians presumes that when these men and women became believers, that their faith was met by a knowable touch from the Holy Spirit, "sealing" their faith. They knew they'd been changed, and they probably got some very solid teaching on how the Holy Spirit reveals Christ- just as Jesus had said He would.

My words do not save me, Jesus' blood saves me. Jesus' blood does not save me unless my words of faith and repentance demonstrate to God that He has my sincerity. My point with the Graham crusade statistics is that apparently many spoke the words, but never waited on God to hear the acceptance. These largely returned to the worldly ways they came to the meetings with, and we can only hope that some were refreshed at a later point in their lives as the Spirit called in His original claim.

What I strongly contend is that God urgently wants to give us the assurance we need to live out our lives in genuine peace and constantly growing in the personal relationship.

Those who find themselves wondering whether they are truly saved are no where near that peace, and in my opinion are in danger of hearing God say "Depart from Me, I never knew you."

No believer should live like that! And any with doubts have some serious business to get into with God!

"Search me and know me O God, and see if there be any wicked way within me!"

Quote: Jesus blood does not save me unless my words of faith and repentance demonstrate to God that He has my sincerity.

If we say my "faith and repentance demonstrate to God that He has my sincerity" then what your saying salvation is faith plus works....

For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast. Eph 2:8-9

"If you confess with your mouth and belive with your heart, you will be saved."

Is that a "work?"

Works in my mind are simply an accumulation of good deeds people rely on to counter balance the evil deeds they refuse to give up. Between the Karma people and a vast number of Roman Catholics, this is the works religion that they count on for their ticket to heaven. This is nowhere near the biblical requirement.

Jesus' atoning death on the cross is the work without which there can be no salvation, but it is of no value to those who will not do the "work" of turning from their sin, and God has every right and obligation to determine whether a person has done so with sincerity. If it ain't real, it ain't real.

Many scholars have been troubled over the years that James' words are in the scriptures, where he balances the "not by works" perspective with the other idea that works demonstrate true faith. Both are critical, both make up a genuine blood-bought Christian worthy to stand as an example of the power of God and the truth of His promises.

Spent too many years as a phony Christian, not going back there.

Quote: "If you confess with your mouth and belive with your heart, you will be saved." Is that a "work?"

Take a close look at what you said:

Quote: Jesus blood does not save me unless my words of faith and repentance demonstrate to God that He has my sincerity.

Jesus blood DOES NOT SAVE me unless my words of faith AND REPENTANCE..

So what is this repentance you prescribe prior to salvation?

To put it bluntly, the death of Jesus on the cross does not obligate God to save anyone. Quickly I add that Jesus' death on the cross enables God to save everybody, in that He is not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance.

Growing up under rather severe Calvinist teaching I came to believe that men were so hopelessly lost that they were unable to even think they could ask God for salvation. This was the famous "Total Depravity" that explained why condemned men had no claim to God.

Thus salvation was completely controlled by an initiation from God, who being under no obligation to save anyone could by His own will and purposes "elect" to save some. His choice, the rest none of my business.

I have since come to thoroughly reject this notion, and I see it as a complete misrepresentation of both the character and purposes of God. Under Calvin's view of atonement, Christ was tortured and crucified in an exact blow for blow accounting of all the sins of the elect. All the believer's sins were laid on Him and literally paid in that way. It is known as the doctrine of retributive justice.

But it doesn't work for me, especially the part about the character of God in all of it. Even though I was an early on believer as a teen ager, and relished arguing the truth of Calvinism, I really disliked God, had no love for Jesus, and had no restraint on the sin that wanted to carry me off. I thought, what the hell, God already knows I'm going to sin and besides- Pastor Smith said it was all paid for in Christ anyway.

How simply and logically a teenager can construct enough theology to cover himself and proceed with his sundry passions!

Too detailed to lay it all out here, but I no longer believe with Calvin. The atonement does not obligate God to save anyone, it enables Him to. No one sins because God has pre-ordained it, we sin because we follow our lusts in defiance of our consciences. We arrange for our own condemnation, he arranges a way to escape that same condemnation. He offers salvation- but does not force us to take it!

Jesus death on the cross is what is known as Public Justice if you need a doctrinal name. It is the death owed by one man for his sins, Jesus death is my death. Thus it can be the death of any man, every man, or to follow out the logic, if no man ever repented and received the gift of that sacrifice it is still valid and would be enshrined eternally as God's provision for sinful men! Whew! He is a good, a thorough, and a reasonable loving God!

Repentance I suppose might appear to some as a "work." I don't think so. Repentance is a turning away from the deeds, the attitudes, the habits, the affections that we come to call our lifestyle, and a coming to agree with God that these things filling our lives are egregious crimes against the One who created and loved us. A repentant man recognizes that he has no claim to the things of God, no worthiness to enter the kingdom, no works with which to impress a Holy God.

At the same time, repentance might be considered an enormous work! Severing unholy relationships, confessing wrongs to injured friends and family, paying down debts to creditors, confessing hateful attitudes toward enemies, asking forgiveness of people who have hurt you back- not easy stuff!

But none of it is done to earn God's favor! It is not that kind of "works."

Rather it is the presentation of evidence to the universe that includes God, your neighbor, and even yourself, that your faith is real.

There is no salvation without repentance as far as I can see from what the bible gives us, and there is always that little note,

"God is not mocked. Whatsoever a man soweth, the same shall he reap."

I hope that is helpful, and if I have spoken amiss I covet any correction.

Biker Tom

So what is this repentance you prescribe prior to salvation?

Quote: Repentance is a turning away from the deeds, the attitudes, the habits, the affections that we come to call our lifestyle.

----

Quote: Jesus blood does not save me unless my words of faith and repentance demonstrate to God that He has my sincerity.

So what your saying is; I must confess with my mouth with words of faith and turn away from deeds, attitudes, habits, and affections then Jesus blood will save me?

Shouldn't the turning away from deeds, attitudes, habits, and affections be post-conversion rather that pre-conversion...

Must a smoker stop smoking to be converted, what about the drug addict has he to stop taking drugs to be converted, the drunkard must he stop consuming alcohol to be converted.

murrcolr writes:

Shouldn't the turning away from deeds, attitudes, habits, and affections be post-conversion rather that pre-conversion...

I want to further clarify by saying repentance does continue after conversion. But I was mainly referring to the initial repentance that accompanies saving faith during the new birth experience.

Jesus asked a question, regarding a father who asked his two sons to go work in the vineyard. One readily said he would go but didn't, the other was reluctant but did go and work. Which one, asks Jesus, did the will of the father? It was almost a rhetorical question, it was obvious that the one who actually did as he was requested was the one who pleased his father.

In a similar vein, in Matthew 3 John the Baptist strongly rebukes (the great "brood of vipers" analogy) the scribes and pharisees who were coming to be baptized. "Bring fruits of repentance," He scolds. He wants to see deeds, not just the claim that they are descendents of Abraham.

But look at this even deeper. Salvation is future, a reality that is the substance of our hope, shrouded in warnings of apostasy, being sucked back into sin, the uncertainty of standing up to persecution, of being an "overcomer." No one living today has in his grasp the salvation of which we speak. Even Paul, "Not that I have attained, but I pummel my body..."

"Are you saved, brother?" We might ask.
"Sure am, too blessed to be depressed, on my way to glory!"

Easy words, glibly spoken under no pressure. We have all heard them.

But these are people still walking out, working out their salvation with fear and trembling. The vote is not yet counted, and we would be foolish to judge. We are all still in process.

So while the works do not save a man, true repentance with elements such as I have written set him on a path of genuine faith bound for a salvation "waiting to be revealed in the last time," as Peter writes.

Am I missing something? Do you know a way to reach salvation without repentance?

______________________
I want to further clarify by saying repentance does continue after conversion. But I was mainly referring to the initial repentance that accompanies saving faith during the new birth experience.
______________________

An excellent point Oracio!

Repentance is to me the great dividing line between those who have become Christian so that they can go to heaven when they die, and those who bow before God to do His will at any cost.

Repentance should be a character quality, a pillar of the great virtue of humility, ready to be called upon instantly when one is caught by the Holy Spirit in some compromise. A constantly repentant heart is eager to keep the books clear, to prevent that root of bitterness a chance to burrow and spread poison.

i think muurcol might be saying the flesh pre conversion cant turn from sin ,,it is flesh and sin is what it does all it does,,but once conversion comes and a new heart is givern and the new man is born ,,then he can turn from sin in the contex of repentence .,,,,,before that all a man can do is be convicted of sin and be guilty ,,,he can change is mind about sin but thats it he cant please god in the fleash and turn fromm sin ,,he can try ,but the carnal man can recive the things of the spirit nor perform the things of the spirit like baring the fruit of righeousness

call it what ever theolighy you want but that is cleary manys perceived experence is ,,and paul and jesus teaches that cleary as well

i think one of the main reasons why we might disagree about somting like this ,,is our definition of repentence is not the same

merriam webster /dictionary

: to feel or show that you are sorry for something bad or wrong that you did and that you want to do what is right

EasyBib

Full Definition of REPENT

intransitive verb

1

: to turn from sin and dedicate oneself to the amendment of one's life

2

a : to feel regret or contrition

b : to change one's mind
transitive verb

1

: to cause to feel regret or contrition

2

: to feel sorrow, regret, or contrition for

”” re·pent·er noun

See repent defined for English-language learners »

See repent defined for kids »

Examples of REPENT

The preacher told us that we would be forgiven for our sins if we repented.
criminals who have repented for their crimes
The preacher told us that we would be forgiven if we repented our sins.

Origin of REPENT

Middle English, from Anglo-French repentir, from Medieval Latin repoenitÄ“re, from Latin re- + Late Latin poenitÄ“re to feel regret, alteration of Latin paenitÄ“re ”” more at penitent
First Known Use: 14th century

Religion based on man seeks to define what one must do to be saved. Back in the 15th century the central question in Europe was "how can I know that I am saved from hell? " We all know that the Catholic church had defined a set of rules, that if one did them they might surely know that they are saved. It was no different for the Jews that Jesus ministered to 2000 plus years ago. And it is today as it was in the 15th century. The story has different actors, yet the "pattern" is the same.

Today, men will try to teach others that if they do this and that, they who do these things can know that they are saved. But Scripture does not teach this about the ways of God. As Sidewalk has stated, Scripture teaches that it is the witness of the Holy Spirit in ones life that leads to salvation. And Scripture teaches that God's work in one individual is different from the work He does in another individual. He alone gets to decide who He will adopt.

This precept is illustrated in the parable found in Matthew 20...of which the last few words are thus...

Mat 20:12
"saying, ‘These last men have worked only one hour, and you made them equal to us who have borne the burden and the heat of the day.’

Mat 20:13
"But he answered one of them and said, ‘Friend, I am doing you no wrong. Did you not agree with me for a denarius?

Mat 20:14
‘Take what is yours and go your way. I wish to give to this last man the same as to you.

Mat 20:15
‘Is it not lawful for me to do what I wish with my own things? Or is your eye evil because I am good?’

Mat 20:16
"So the last will be first, and the first last. For many are called, but few chosen.”fn

The very first example of salvation of grace through faith is established in the testimony of Cain and Abel. God was not yet satisfied with Cain's response to God's calling or work in his life, and we know that God through the Holy Spirit continued to call Cain, but in the end according to Scripture, Cain rejected God and was not adopted by God. Likewise we have the testimony of Abraham. We are given a glimpse of the work God did in Abram before God preformed the Covenant with him. Likewise we know the testimony of Jacob and the struggle before God gave him the new name Israel. And likewise, we are given the testimony of the criminal that hung on the cross next to Jesus...and in that moment God adopted him. His time of calling and being chosen as different as all the others.

So man has no where to hide, no where to find justification for what he has done outside of the work of the Holy Spirit. Let Him be true and every man be a liar.

As Sidewalk testified hearing His voice is life changing.

Butters wrote:
these days simply bank on the promises of God in scripture, whether I feel saved or not.

The promises that are in Scripture are certainly true. And those promises through the Word of God, work to bring about a changed life. As the pastor of this thread points to the outworking of the Holy Spirit in those who are being saved according to 1 John, so we too should recognized a power that is outside ourselves that works to reveal the condition of our hearts as we encounter life day to day.

An example of this "relationship" with the Word of God is given to us ...

Psa 119:123
My eyes fail from seeking Your salvation
And Your righteous word.

Psa 119:124
Deal with Your servant according to Your mercy,
And teach me Your statutes.

Psa 119:125
I am Your servant;
Give me understanding,
That I may know Your testimonies.

Salvation comes through understanding how the Word of God both written and spoken becomes the yoke which Jesus speaks of.

Rookie!

I love your forum name.... 4500+ posts...!!?

Butters-

You do well to believe the promises of God unto your salvation, and as you walk in these you will be an influence to others that they too might see your faith and seek your God on their own. It is supposed to be this way, it is not that you wait around, looking at your watch, when is God going to speak to me?

The first thing you should do, in my opinion, is to ask God for a revelation of Himself.

"OK God, your Word has convinced my head, I believe Jesus is Your Son and my Savior, put your Spirit in my heart that I might know you with more than just my head!"

Surprisingly, few actually pray a prayer like that. I can only tell you that I have prayed like that, actually I pray that a lot anyway, I read a passage of Scripture and just ask God to show me what it means- what amazing things come to me from just that!

Hearing from God does not have to be all that mystical. For example, when you hear a story of how someone came to know Christ and tears of joy well up in your eyes, you are experiencing the Holy Spirit within you. He is there, confirming Himself with this kind of witness all the time- enjoy it, thank Him for it!

I strongly suggest you be very direct with God, tell Him you want to hear His voice in your spirit. But be ready for some profound rebukes as well as the encouragement! Most of my best stories of hearing from God are rooted in rebukes that exposed my sin filled attitudes! He loves me that much!

And report back! When you hear from Him, the Body is edified!

May His love fill you to the point where you cry out "Stop, I can't take any more!"

Now that is a mystical experience!

Quote: i think muurcol might be saying the flesh pre conversion cant turn from sin

Well yes and no… Repent means: to turn from sin and dedicate oneself to the amendment of one's life.

For example; a sinner who is addicted to drugs, could stop taking drugs, a sinner who is a thief could stop stealing, if they choose to reform and amend there life, however they would still remain a sinner.

So the free gift of God can’t be earned through reforming and amending their life.

The Holy Spirit must first convict the sinner of his sins, the sinner at that time has a choice he can decides to nothing and remains a sinner or he turns to Christ as your saviour by faith.

For me repentance is: God convicts of sin and you respond to Christ as your saviour by faith.

Quote: Repentance should be a character quality, a pillar of the great virtue of humility, ready to be called upon instantly when one is caught by the Holy Spirit in some compromise. A constantly repentant heart is eager to keep the books clear, to prevent that root of bitterness a chance to burrow and spread poison.

I could pull up quotes from Catholic’s, Mormon’s and LDS that would all say the same basic thing as that statement above.

I find religion bases relationship to God on personal discipline rather than the sacrifice of Christ. Religion also rejects Jesus Christ as the ground of hope, it depends on reformation, sorrow and or any thing else, but it leads to no reliance on Jesus Christ.

One who has turned to Christ should be known by his Christlikeness, not his repentant lifestyle. All that is real in that Christian, all that is holy, heavenly, pure, abiding, and saving, is of Christ Jesus.

How Can I Be Sure of My Salvation?

Quote: The trouble is, Rookie, such a take excludes from salvation those (including myself) who haven't been lucky enough to have mystical inner witness experience. I, personally, these days simply bank on the promises of God in scripture, whether I feel saved or not.

Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God 1 John 5:1

Are you born of God Butters?

hi murcol that sort of makes scence but not realy ,after reading paul in romons ,he says we wants to do good but it is the evil that he ends up doing ,,and that was the delema of the natural carnal man ,,,,so what you said realy doesnt line up with what paul said ,,,a sinner might be able to reframe from a few vices ,,,but that is not repentence and a turing a way from sin ,,,,,that is the difference between bible believebornagaing christanity ,,,and judasim and islam and most of the other religeones ,,they say like pelagiues that man can renpent with out the new birth ,,where is the bible says i will put a new heart and a new spirit in you and i will put the fear of god in you then you will obey and keeep my will

Quote: hi murcol that sort of makes scence but not realy ,after reading paul in romons ,he says we wants to do good but it is the evil that he ends up doing ,,and that was the delema of the natural carnal man.

Well that's moving onto a different subject, the battle between the Spirit and the flesh for dominance after conversion.

Quote: he says we wants to do good but it is the evil that he ends up doing

Compare what Paul says in Romans 7:15 to Gal 5:16

Quote: that is the difference between bible believebornagaing christanity ,,,and judasim and islam and most of the other religeones ,,they say like pelagiues that man can renpent with out the new birth.

An example would be the Pharisees; Jesus said to them; "For you are like whitewashed tombs, which outwardly appear beautiful, but within are full of dead people’s bones and all uncleanness"

All that I saying is that from the signs it may appear that they have a "form of godliness" it may look like they have "repented" of their sins.

Look at what Christ says "Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord shall enter the kingdom of heaven" Saying you have submitted to the Lordship of Christ is not enough, having a form of Godliness in not enough, having the appearance that you have repented is not enough.

What's the requirement "doing the will of the Father"

That starts at conversion and it not a work one can see, as it is a work that begins on the inside, (It will work it's way out) he gives us a new spirit, that's why John says "Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God"

i dont think it maters wheather after read romons 7 i think it is ,,that one takes the view that it is post or preconversion ,,if it is post conversion that only proves after conversion he wanst to do godd but still did eveil ,,the imlication would be he inhertide the will to do good after conversion ,,and before that he did not have the will even to do good ,,so evil .carnal or the natural tendnece to rebel was who he was ,,he could not reform his life and stop sinning and doing evil ,,we could not even will to do good

if one takes romons 7 as a before conversion experence ,then he is still faced with the bibical facts he could not perfom the good but the law of eveil in his members drove him to sin ,,,so he sould not stop sinning in that state either

you said ..All that I saying is that from the signs it may appear that they have a "form of godliness" it may look like they have "repented" of their sins.

i agree with that i dont know why you would say that ,,becasue that was my point before conversion ,,one could not truly stop sinning and jesus pointed it out to them

you said ............What's the requirement "doing the will of the Father"

That starts at conversion and it not a work one can see, as it is a work that begins on the inside, (It will work it's way out) he gives us a new spirit, that's why John says "Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God"
,,,,this is what i was saying i agree with that that was my point ,,,gods will is that we stop living in sin repent ,,,stop sining ,,and as you just said that starts at conversion not before ,,,,,,,,that is what i said i thought you ment in the beginning ,,and you said sort of , and then you said a sinner could stop sinning and reform his life ,,,i dont what going we may have misunder stood one another ,,,,,my point was that the nature man can not please god that in his flesh he cant stop sinning till he is givern a new heart to want to

.

Brothergary it seems that we are in agreement. :-)

Psa 119:17
GIMEL
Deal bountifully with Your servant,
That I may live and keep Your word.

Psa 119:18
Open my eyes, that I may see
Wondrous things from Your law.

Psa 119:19
I am a stranger in the earth;
Do not hide Your commandments from me.

Psa 119:20
My soul breaks with longing
For Your judgments at all times.

Man cannot see with his eyes nor can he improve according to the law. We all begin condemned by the law and we as Paul in Roman's 7 find that our struggle is hopeless without God's grace. That grace is extended to man through the work of the Holy Spirit. One can live many years in Roman's 7 and some according to Scripture never escape the condemnation. Instead, because they choose to live according to the law, they experience a growth in a negative way. They grow more bitter and more harsh in their view of others. They resemble those who Jesus called hypocrites and white washed tombs. They never enter into an understanding which the writer of Psalm 119 testifies of.

Quote: Man cannot see with his eyes nor can he improve according to the law. We all begin condemned by the law and we as Paul in Roman's 7 find that our struggle is hopeless without God's grace. That grace is extended to man through the work of the Holy Spirit.

Read this earlier today and part of your post reminded me of it..

Repentance is a grace. Some people preach it as a condition of salvation. Condition of nonsense! There are no conditions of salvation. God gives the salvation himself… by Charles Surgeon

Repentance is a grace - extended to man through the work of the Holy Spirit.

"Some preach that repentance is a condition of salvation."

Good point. Jesus is in good company!

Charles Spurgeon may have been a great man of God and a mighty preacher, but to say there are no conditions of salvation is either grossly out context or a blatant endorsement of universalism.

We have work to do...

Quote: We have work to do...

Then hath God also to the Gentiles granted repentance unto life. Acts 11:18.

So what is this work?

Joh 6:26 ”Š-29

Jesus answered them and said, "Most assuredly, I say to you, you seek Me, not because you saw the signs, but because you ate of the loaves and were filled. Do not labor for the food which perishes, but for the food which endures to everlasting life, which the Son of Man will give you, because God the Father has set His seal on Him." Then they said to Him, "What shall we do, that we may work the works of God?" Jesus answered and said to them, "This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He sent."

Salvation is by faith and faith alone.

It is found in Christ and Christ alone.

Faith comes by hearing and hearing by the Word of God.

No one asks for a savior unless they realize they are in need of rescue.

You can't believe on Jesus and not repent.

Repentance is granted to us by God no question about that. God has to melt our hard heart by his love to repent. But Repentance has to be preached. Today's Church has not preached repentance enough. John The Baptist preached it, Jesus preached it, Apostles preached it, why only now people are coming up with theologies saying preach only Jesus and not repentance? This is because they do not want to offend their Church members who contribute money by preaching repentance.

God has always united faith and repentance. What God has united let no man separate.

I would contend that it is ludicrous to suggest repentance is granted by God, that is nowhere in scripture or reason. Repentance is what convicted sinners do when they have been awakened to their sin, overcome with the realization that they are living as criminals before God.
(To clarify, God does not grant repentance per se, but grants time in His mercy to some that they might come to that obedience.)

Repentance rather is ACCEPTED by God, evidence that faith is working in that awakened, convicted sinner. God sees that repentance, that turning from sin as our part of the salvation covenant and is thus able to pardon the sin.

God, as the moral governor, cannot pardon sin without that repentant heart! Otherwise the whole kingdom of righteousness collapses in chaos.

This is the heart of the word where He is not willing that any should perish, but all should come to repentance. There could have been a lot of other words inserted there... but they weren't.

"The word is not in heaven that you should ask, 'Who then shall ascend to heaven to bring it down to us, or who shall descend to the pit to bring it up? But the word is very near you, in your mouth and in your heart!'"

We are so steeped in Roman Catholic tradition and Calvinistic restraint! We can't see that God waits and expects us to seek Him, find Him, obey Him, fulfill our obligations to Him!

Ezekiel cried out from his prophetic anointing, "Get yourself a new heart and a new spirit! Why will you die O house of Israel??" (18:31)

You think you are going to wait for God to send you repentance as if it were some gift or special blessing? A warm feeling? A doctrine to write down in the back of your bible?

You will wait a very long time. True repentance is directly in front of you, to be taken with deadly seriousness today, right now, before you do anything else!

"Search me and know me O God, and see if any wicked way hides within me!"

And know this, you who scoff at this desperate call to repent, that those who obey God and turn from their sin will be filled with unspeakable joy!

True happiness is right there on the other side of repentance, and when repentance becomes fixed in your soul, the joy will never be displaced.

I would contend that it is ludicrous to suggest repentance is granted by God, that is nowhere in scripture or reason.

2 Timothy 2:24-The Lord's bond-servant must not be quarrelsome, but be kind to all, able to teach, patient when wronged, with gentleness correcting those who are in opposition, if perhaps God may grant them repentance leading to the knowledge of the truth, and they may come to their senses and escape from the snare of the devil, having been held captive by him to do his will.

2 Corinthians 7-Godly sorrow produces repentance.

See I do not believe that we should not preach repentance or should not preach about sin. Jesus said if your brother sins then rebuke him. He did not say that wait until God grants him repentance. We should do our part of preaching repentance and trust in God to grant repentance to those who do not resist him. The fact that we believe in Repentance as a condition for salvation does not nullify what the scripture says about God granting repentance.

sree you beat me to it

the bible says clearly gods grant repentence and deals to each many the measure of faith ,,,but at the ame time we must repenet and we must have faith ,,,it is dielecly delma ,,gods sovernty in salvation,, and mans responsability ,,,to sides to the coin

and like sree said we still need to preach to men to repent and have faith

It was late last night, and other things were wrangling in my head- I may not have worded my thoughts as thoroughly as I might have. Yes God "grants" repentance, but I still believe when the phrase is used in context it is connected to God's mercy and the patient wooing of conviction by the Holy Spirit. Unrepentant men are given a measure of time to come to repentance, but as we know the Spirit will not always strive with men. No man knows just how much time he has.

Every man remains free to respond to that call or to resist it, but God will not force a man to repent. He can't do it, otherwise He would be obligated to grant all men repentance, and the cross would become meaningless.

We preach repentance because it our mission in the gospel to convince men that if they do not turn from sinful ways and embrace Christ's forgiveness, God has no other way to save them.

And it is always a man's obligation to repent. It is not scriptural to suggest he wait to see if God will grant him repentance, rather it is for him today.

The history of Christian revivals is one of men responding to the call to repent. It is my own testimony that my revival is directly to my repentance.

Sree writes

See I do not believe that we should not preach repentance or should not preach about sin. Jesus said if your brother sins then rebuke him. He did not say that wait until God grants him repentance. We should do our part of preaching repentance and trust in God to grant repentance to those who do not resist him. The fact that we believe in Repentance as a condition for salvation does not nullify what the scripture says about God granting repentance.

Sidewalk, I would agree with your strong emphasis on preaching repentance and holding men accountable for their choices. In the Word we do not find our Lord or the prophets or apostles emphasizing the point of total depravity when preaching the gospel. In other words, they did not emphasize that men are incapable of repenting apart from God's grace, they simply preached that men should repent and believe the gospel-Mark 6:12. They kept it simple.

That said, I do believe both repentance and faith are connected and are gifts from God's hand. This is where it can get confusing in trying to understand God's sovereignty in salvation and man's responsibility. These days I try not to figure it all out but simply believe both those truths that seem clear in God's Word.

I also want to mention that I think Sidwalk makes a good point about a possible interpretation of the scriptures that say God grants repentance.

Oracio,

Anytime anyone asks me if I believe in free will or the sovereignty of God my answer is always this: "I believe both." And it just ruins everyone's day...lol.

Amen havok20x, lol!

side walk i dont think any one said that it is bibical for men to wait for god grant repentence ,,,,,but with out gods spirit convicting mans of his sin ,,which is god changing his mind about his own sin ,,,man cant repent ,,,,,a jew and a muslim believe they are repenting aslo in the context of there own religeon ,,we know it is not the holy spirit and the result is no true repentence

the holy spirit must convict man ,,and chages his mind about his sin ,,becasue god shows man that he is guitly and is a sinner,,,god does that by his spirit ,,man cant produe that effect by his free will ,,,,but once god changes his mind about sin and the man now feels that he is a sinner and lost ...he must then go with that and imbrace this changed mind and except it and not deni this conviction

god intitiats repentence and he even susustains ,,if it was not for gods power we would not know what it means to repent bibicly ,,we would be like the muslim and the jehovawitness ,,and have no idea with real repentence and faith is ,,it realy is the gift ,,,and god bestowes that when he choses to whom he chosses

i pesonly believe that god knows who will imbrace this gift and and who will not ,,because he is onipitant ,,,so he does not always grat this gift to evey man ,,im not saying he knows who will have faith by there own free will but he know that who will responed due to his holy effects on the will of man ,,god bends mans will which is in bondage to his emotions and evill desires ,and drwas him hin with holy influnence ,,,so even mans choice is not made from a will that is free from influence ( free will),,,but from a will that is in a proces and is partly changed by god

in a similar way that a childs will is effected by a parrent to make right desisions ,,,but only god uses supanatural power and the gosple ,which is extermaly maginfied in comparison

well thats my testamony ,,that what he did to me and is still doing ,,so all the praise and glory goes to god ,,all credit to the thrice holy one ,,,who did it all ,,,i believe my part i play is so limated ,,that i can say that it is not i but christ that dewelth in me

blessing

When the sower went out to sow seeds as Jesus gives the parable, seeds fell on various kinds of soil, and as he teaches here we are all a little different kind of ground. We respond to the "seed" a bit differently.

When Charles Finney was told by his pastor Dr. Gale that he would have to wait and see if God would grant him repentance, the young Finney scoffed and decided that if Christianity worked like that he would have no part in it.

As Charles read the bible he regularly confronted his pastor with the inconsistencies and logic fails in the gospel Dr. Gale presented. Confounded and gripped in the Calvinistic theology he'd learned, the pastor had no answers for this irritating young man who would not bow his knee to God.

The prevailing religious thought of the day was that men were supposed to wait for God to act upon them, that men were so completely depraved that it was impossible to approach God on one's own. Unworthy and undeserving of the grace of God, it was completely God's prerogative to select some out of the morass of human sin-squalor for salvation, His elect.

Finney, when he yielded to the Holy Spirit ripping at his heart and took the leap of faith to believe, was immediately baptized in the Holy Spirit, (unheard of in his circles) quit his law practice, and set out to preach the gospel- according the revelation that had won his own heart.

Still controversial to this day, he commanded men to take full responsibility for their sin, to repent immediately, and believe into Jesus Christ. His ministry continued for 50 years, it swept revival across the entire eastern United States and England, winning for Christ countless politicians, doctors and lawyers as well as the common folks- with what was estimated to be an 80% retention. Those who went forward at his meetings genuinely met God and stayed their courses, spreading the gospel themselves.

And it was largely because Finney taught men that they needed to approach God and grasp the salvation He was offering. He would ask them to actually leave their seats and come forward to the altar to meet God, not to wait for Him to come to them granting repentance!

Ever wonder where "going forward to get saved" came from? Finney shocked congregations who had never seen this, and as people rose from their seats all could see who was willing to confess that they were sinners in need of a savior.

Finney had been in Glory nearly 100 years when his preaching brought another young man full of pompous self-righteousness face to face with the real God. A young man who carelessly dabbled in sin because he believed it was all covered by the death of Jesus, sins past present and future. Finney's preaching confronted the young man's prideful heart right from the grave, and brought me to my knees. I repented then, have repented often, am ready to repent today as The Spirit directs.

In the meantime, I live in complete joy, and have some work to do in my garage! I strongly recommend reading a copy of Charles G. Finney's autobiography which will tell the whole story of this remarkable evangelist and theologian.

Sidewalk, I really enjoyed reading your last post and brief testimony of how you were awakened from easy-believism through Finney's preaching. I have read Finney's autobiography and found it very encouraging. I believe Finney was mightily used of the Lord in confronting what some would term hyper-Calvinism. However, I do believe he went a bit too far to the other extreme in some of his teachings. For example, I remember reading his book on lectures on revival and being challenged by some things he wrote, particularly that revival is not a miracle from God's hand but a very natural human work. To be honest after considering those writings prayerfully I ended up tossing that book in the trash. But I do not discredit his entire ministry but like I said I acknowledge God's hand mightily in it. Spurgeon felt the same way about Finney in that he called him a brother who is misguided in some things. I know that some Calvinists absolutely despise all of Finney's writings and ministry and Finney himself, and to me that is folly.

Why would Jesus, John the Baptist and Paul command men to repent if it was something that God had to grant first? That is not what 2 Tim 2:25-26 means.

Havok-- you said that you believed in both God's sovereignty and man's free will. That may not be an issue depending on how you define sovereignty.

Regarding God granting repentance, another way of looking at it is that God grants both the opportunity to repent as well as the gift of biblical, saving repentance.

We know for sure that God commands all men everywhere to repent-Acts 17:30. So with that command comes man's accountability as to how he responds to that command. If he rejects that command and refuses to obey it, he is held responsible for that choice and has no one to blame but himself if he is damned.

Yet, if he does truly repent and believe the gospel he must look back and acknowledge God's hand in his repentance and cannot take glory for it, because salvation is of the Lord and not of him who wills-Rom.9:16. We know that regeneration is a work of God's Spirit and to me, surely repentance is part of that regenerating work of God.

So both those things may be true when it comes to repentance (man's opportunity to repent and God's gift of repentance) and there may not be any need to discard either one.

Oracio-

I agree with the way you have stated it.

tmk ,think about brother why jesus tell the disciples go and heal the sick ,,if it was god that granted healing , well he said that and yet it wasn't the deciples who heal it ws gods manifestation of the gifts of healing ,,,its the same logic ,,,the same with the prophert ,,,he told them go speak to Israel ,,,yet it was god speaking ,,, its like that with repentence ,,,he says repent ,,yet it is him who manfest the spirit of repentence ,,and grants it ,,,do a words sudy on what it means to grant somebody something cheak out the greek word for grant ,,,,who realy cares what finniy thought what does the bible say ,,,finney was a reacation to hypa Calvinism ,,,so many people are reacting againsts dead Calvinism

I see what you are saying Gary but repentance is something that a man must do. God responds to repentance but God does not do the repenting.

In the case of healing I agree that God is the healer but he is responding to faith.

I agree that God "grants" conviction by the HS that can lead to a person repenting. That is different from saying that God "grants" the repentance.

Maybe it is just a matter of semantics but I don't think that repentance is a "work" like some people might which requires a theology paradigm that says even God must give a person repentance otherwise their "work" is part of what saves them. But God does not grant repentance; he grants forgiveness in response to repentance.

I believe that God is totally sovereign over everything and that man freely chooses to be saved, and that salvation is entirely a work of God in the life of a man.

That is why a man must be drawn by God and the Son must reveal Himself to them and why we appeal to men to be saved. It is both.

brother Mark, I agree with almost all you posted there except the denial that repentance is also a gift of God. Would you say the same about saving faith? If so, how would you reconcile that with Eph.2:8 which plainly states that faith is a gift of God? If faith is a gift of God and repentance and faith are connected in true conversion, to me it follows logically that saving repentance must also be a gift of God along with faith.

Repentance is both a choice and a gift of God, folks.

Why don't fallen angels repent? It is because it is not granted to them. To be honest an unbeliever does not need to hear that God has to grant them repentance. They need to hear that they must repent and believe the Gospel that you present to them.

A believer should hear this truth in the context of the marvelous grace of God and His love for us, not as an abstract doctrine that has been separated from its proper application.

Oracio-

Why do you think that Eph 2:8-9 is saying that faith is the gift from God and not salvation? I have always read those verses to mean that salvation is the gift (i.e. it is not earned), not faith.

I think we are treading on perilous ground if we start suggesting that God gifts some people with saving faith but not others.

awakened writes:

Thanks brother Oracio. I only wrote all that to combat the error about people "waiting" to receive a gift to float down on them before they repent. I think I did say that repentance is a gift from God just as every beat of our heart is also a gift from God. I mentioned that we are already hardwired to truly repent, and when we choose to repent as free willed beings, the Holy Spirit comes on us and helps us.

Honestly we are never really going to fully figure out the mechanics of all this, I just know that I have an obligation to repent because God tells me to. And when I do, He helps me:)

hovok20x writes:

Repentance is both a choice and a gift of God, folks.

Why don't fallen angels repent? It is because it is not granted to them. To be honest an unbeliever does not need to hear that God has to grant them repentance. They need to hear that they must repent and believe the Gospel that you present to them.

A believer should hear this truth in the context of the marvelous grace of God and His love for us, not as an abstract doctrine that has been separated from its proper application.

TMK writes:

Oracio-

Why do you think that Eph 2:8-9 is saying that faith is the gift from God and not salvation? I have always read those verses to mean that salvation is the gift (i.e. it is not earned), not faith.

I think we are treading on perilous ground if we start suggesting that God gifts some people with saving faith but not others.

But think about it, it shouldn't be too surprising that some would read that verse like this, "By grace are you saved through faith, and that(faith),not of yourselves, it is a gift of God, not of works, lest anyone should boast."

Also, it could be argued that that passage is teaching that our whole salvation and the whole conversion process(the new birth/regeneration/salvation through faith) is effected by God's grace as a gift and is not something we can earn.

But I will have to search the scriptures more and meditate on that passage a bit more TMK because you do present a good challenge to my long-held understanding of that verse.

That said, I think we can also tread on dangerous ground if we give the impression that regeneration is a work of man. Scripture is clear that the Holy Ghost is the One that produces that awesome work in one's heart and life and God will not share that glory with any man.

These things can get a bit deep for us to fully comprehend this side of heaven. That's why I said earlier, I try not to worry too much about it these days. But I think it's good to discuss it and allow iron to sharpen iron as I've experienced on this thread.

edit seriously awakened this is the problem

you said ......God does not grant any "specific" act of repentance to only certain people or any such thing like this. Seriously I had never even heard of such a thing until I came to America. All my life everywhere I went, everyone I met had the same simple understanding of what repentance means....until now

you are elavaiting what everyone is saying rather then plain reading of scripture ,,,and you said youv been doin that all your life

if we take scripture at face value ,,,paull siad it plainly ,,PERHAPS GOD WILL GRANT THEM REPENTENCE ,,,speaking about the jews ,,,,,,,you need to rember evey thing god grants is a gift from him ,,,becasue it is a grace ,,man doesnt earn the right to be convicted by gods power nor is it owed to us not do we deserve this and to die to sin ,which in essence is what a matured repentence is ,,,paul uses the word perhaps god will grant ,,meaning perhaps he will perhaps he wont ,,,jesus said no man can come to me unless my father draws him ,,this is repentence ,,to change you mind due to gracefilled revalion of our sinfull nature ,and come to christ to be washed in the blood ,,,jesus said you cant do it with out my fathers spirit ,,,he said with out me you can do nothing ,,not a thing can we do to please god becasue the bible says the natural man cannot recieve the things of the spirit ,,,,and conviction of of sin by the spirit of god is the most importaint thing of the spirit

so in essence the bible teaches man cant produce conviction of the spirit needed for repentence nor can he produce the holy revalation of jesus and his mercy by with man is drawn and turns from sin to god ,,,so man needs god to grant repentence invoving spiritual conviction and supanatural revalation

nor can man in an unregenerate natual carnal state recieve these vital manifestation that are granted by the mercy of god ,,,he must be bornagaing or be in the process of the new birth to recieve these presious things ,as paul bluntly put it it is foolish ,to him

god goes even as far as giving us the desires of our heart the bible says so ,,,,,,he places in us the desire to to want god and to be dicusted at sin ,, the bible says we love him becase he first loved us ,,and you know what we hate sin ,,becasue of the one who is been put in our hearts who as the bible says loved righeousness ,,and hated lawlessness ,,,,we are only like jesus becasue of jesus ,,,,,the bibles goes as far as saying god even deals to each man the measure of faith paul wrote it ,,,so our faith comes from god ,,,,dont lissten to evey one ,,what does the bible say who realy cares how weve been brought up

hebrews says that we have the same SPIRIT OF FAITH as god him self ,,this is not an atrubute of fallen man ,,becasue he has the spirit of the prince and the power of the spirit the spirit that worketh in the sons of disobedence ,,,,that unholy prince has no faith in god ,,he trusted in him self and his own buauty ,,,and that is all of us before conversion ,,,god must intervein as the bible says and put a new heart in us with a new spirit and as he said i will cause you to walk in my statutes and you will be carfull to do them ,, he even said ,i will put my fear in you sao you will not depart from them

salvation is all about god from the beginning to the end ,,he is the alpa and the omega of evey part of our salvation
he even hardens whom he wills and he as we already know give mercy to who he will

some will find fault and say ,,well then who can resist his will if it is like this ,,why has he made us like this ,,who can resists his will

but then who are you to repely back to god ,,will the thing formed say the the one who form it why have you made us this way ,,,,has not the potter power of his clay

paull made that clear in romans

that is the issue that men have with gods word ,,is that it is wrong for god to make us this way ,,,not being able to come to god on our own when we were slaves to sin

brother in your last paragraph ,,,,,you said some things wich are blankent statments that are obviously not true for everyone who believes in the sourventy of god

who has said to sinners they can go on there merry way in sin ,,no one here has said that so useing that in an argument againsts this here is totaly erelevent

agreed brother we should tell them to get down on there faces before god ,,but dont get up till god grants you true repentence ,,,other wise you may as well be a muslim or a jehovawitness down on there facese,,because when they get up thinking theve repented thev acheived nothing but a false repentence,,these can to nothing in there own power to come to god unless god draws him

i like what you wrote ......And when I am crying out to Him in repentance, the impact is very real on Gods own heart. He is moved with compassion for me as His own heart literally breaks over my sincere supplication to turn away from sin and turn to Him. And so He moves on me, His Spirit releasing forgiveness, liberty, joy and freedom and a profound thing happens...He changes me, my heart so to speak. The end result of this true repentance is that I have been changed and am no longer the same person as before.

but how can you think you that it is not god who breaks you and casues you to cry ,,,how can you think and this is your sincer suplication ,,,when the bibles says god pours out the spirit of prayer and suplication ,,how can you take credit and boast about this as your doing,, when the bible says it is god who works in you who both to wills and to do for his good pleasure ,, im amased that one would love to take the glory of gods work in us ,,,he who began a good work in you will finish it ,the bible says ,,,,give the glory to god for all of it ,,we can only continue repenting and believeing in god ,,becasue he is comforming us into the image of his son ,,,gods doing it all ,,,,

i cant help shake my head in a type of anger and trembel with my lip in a brokeness ,,when i read the topic that was stared ,,,that said its not all about jesus ,,,i cant beleieve a christian would say its not all about jesus

the bible says all things are created by him and for him ,,and he upholds all things by the word of his power

if its not all about jesus ,,then mama mea ..whats it all about

blessings to ya

lol brother i hate when that happens ,its happend to me many times ,and due to my extreemly poor typing skills i felt like i lost hours

iv never read anything writtern my calvin and i dont intend to ,,but i have hered that his instatutes of the christians religeon is verry edafieing ,,,i leave that to paull washer

blessings to brother

We are on the fringe of turning this into a Calvinism debate and I surely want to avoid that and I hope that everyone else does too, whichever side of the fence you are on.

I will just say this one thing-- looking at scripture as a whole and trying to keep it as simple as possible, it seems clear that the responsibility is on man to repent and respond to God. Man is held accountable for not repenting. He is sent to hell if he fails to repent long enough.

No I certainly believe we are saved by grace and that salvation is a gift and we don't earn it. But in my view repenting is not earning. Repenting is responding to the call of God and changing one's mind about who he is going to follow henceforward.. Whether we repent or not has everything to do with us. God calls, we repent, or not. God is not hand-picking who repents. If he is somehow putting repentance in me or putting in me the desire to repent, but not someone else, then I am not really repenting. God is, in a manner of speaking, repenting for me.

No, man is responsible for repenting. That seems so clear throughout scripture. Repenting is not a work that earns salvation. Nor is faith a work. Handing out Watchtower booklets door to door is a work. Of course a person who has been saved can look back and see how God was working in his life to bring him to that point, but that is different than saying actually put repentance in a person.

if only god and his work of salvation on the soul of his creatours were as simlpe as that but we are dealing with an unfathanble god and his word is clear quote ,that pehaps god will grant repentence

stop trying to put gods and his work in a finite minacule human box thast we can get easly get our puni litle brain aroung and and explain in one pathetic paragraph ,,lol that does god not honer ,,,man just except the word of god at face value ,,you dont need to over simplafigh ,,and fit it in some basic thological fram work that makes us feel better ,,its ment to hard to under stand and except ,,the holy spirit wouldn have wrote the letter to the romons if it was ment to be that easy

oh man i said iv never even read this calvin gye who that ,,please dont tell who he is,,iv hered of him

what about concidering your self ,brother and all the debats you spark up ,,;like eturnal hell,,,,,im just saying ,,,it doesnt bother me to talk about hell ,,,,but hey be consistent at least

im not aloud on either side of the fence none of those camps excpet me so im left to stradle the bloody fence itself

brother just take the scriopure is is writtern ,,,man is responsable to repent ,,but god grants repentence

ya not ment to be able to swalow that in one bite with our brain ,,,,,just like the cross of christ ,,it was god who sent his son to die for us the bible says i will strik the sheperd and the sheep will be scatterd ,,,god did it buth the bible say in acts to the jews by wikked hands you have crusafied and slayed him

no no god did it i telll

no no the jews and romons did it the bible says

the bible is utterly packed bipolar truths ,,we dont need to minamise either one .,,i do apolagise if it seems in this descusion im minamise what im doing to repent and having faith ,,,but it realy isnt as much as what god is doing ,,,im repenting and believing ,,but i dont need to glosse over the part the bable says hes doing ,,,if you thing im lieing ,,just cheak the bible for the quotes i quoted if you cant find the verses im sure i can or sombody can

man god worth it ,,he worth giving all the glory and credit

how can you say he doesnt put repentence in a person ,,,,repentence is born of god

the simple basic definition ,in it eralists stages is it means a change of mind ,,,renpentenc from sin ,,we change our mind about sin ,,god does that when he convicts and shows us that we are a sinner,,,you haven changed you mind till you see that your a sinner ,,god makes that revalation real ,even finney says in that sermon and he hated calvinism ,,and we repent wowards god ,the bible says through paul ,,,,change your mind about god ,god does that with a revalation aboiut the holyness of his jesus and is majesty we seee god becasue ge gives us sight our mind changes ,,,,,we turn from sin and forsake sin ,,is the next step ,,,well bravo to the lamb of god ,,jesus said if the son sets you free you will be free indeed ,,,thats how he turn from sin ,,,he sets us free from sin ,,,,,,,,sure of course we submit to this calling and respond and embrace this experence ,,,but god has so effected our hearts and minds by his perfect revalations that that he plays a great rool in that as well ,,,he even says he will case us to walk in his ways ,,and he will put the fear of god in us ,,it says that in ezekil ,,,then even david says by the faer of the lord men depart from iniquity ,,,,far out daive is say it is because god puts his fear in you through that gift that we depart from sin and repent

for christ sake read the book its all there so glorious a revalation of gods work in his saints

we are ment to be able to feed from these truths for the rest of our lives and be amasade and astounded at gods grace in this holy matter ,,,,we dont want to make this simple as posable

im off to bed ,,have a good day brother ..blessings

Gary wrote:

"what about concidering your self ,brother and all the debats you spark up ,,;like eturnal hell,,,,,im just saying ,,,it doesnt bother me to talk about hell ,,,,but hey be consistent at least "

Whoa there Gary I just expressed that there were alternative viewpoints. Everyone else was debating with that.

What I mean about debating Calvinism is that it never goes anywhere and the same points are discussed over and over. They are unfruitful.

This discussion hasn't got there quite yet but might be getting close.

It boils down to mind sets and philosophy. Both camps are Christians but with different paradigms. For example I will never ever believe that God predestines some persons to heaven and by default others to hell. I could debate it for years and my mind would never be changed. Other people have no problem with this at all and they would never be persuaded otherwise. So why debate it?

I don't like God's character to be misrepresented and I think that is the driving force behind a lot of the debate. One side thinks that Calvinism misrepresents His character and the other does not. Perhaps both are right.

golly brothagary, I love you. I hope I have the great privilege of meeting you one day this side of eternity!

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TMK, you said:

If he is somehow putting repentance in me or putting in me the desire to repent, but not someone else, then I am not really repenting.

As Gary has already pointed out, the scripture says both. It is man's responsibility to respond to the Gospel. No doubt. It is also entirely a work of God. You are not talking to hyper-calvinists here. I've hardly even read anything by Calvin!

I want to employ a bit of logic here, TMK.

If I say that if God allows me to breathe but does not allow others to do so, then I am not really alive then something is terribly wrong with the way I think...lol.

We ascribe all of these wonderful things to God, but the truth is that He is sovereign over all of creation.

Look at what it says in Isaiah 59:15 to the end of the chapter

So truth fails,
And he who departs from evil makes himself a prey.
Then the Lord saw it, and it displeased Him
That there was no justice.

He saw that there was no man,
And wondered that there was no intercessor;
Therefore His own arm brought salvation for Him;
And His own righteousness, it sustained Him.
For He put on righteousness as a breastplate,
And a helmet of salvation on His head;
He put on the garments of vengeance for clothing,
And was clad with zeal as a cloak.
According to their deeds, accordingly He will repay,
Fury to His adversaries,
Recompense to His enemies;
The coastlands He will fully repay.
So shall they fear
The name of the Lord from the west,
And His glory from the rising of the sun;
When the enemy comes in like a flood,
The Spirit of the Lord will lift up a standard against him.

"The Redeemer will come to Zion,
And to those who turn from transgression in Jacob,”
Says the Lord.

"As for Me,” says the Lord, "this is My covenant with them: My Spirit who is upon you, and My words which I have put in your mouth, shall not depart from your mouth, nor from the mouth of your descendants, nor from the mouth of your descendants’ descendants,” says the Lord, "from this time and forevermore.”

and look at Isaiah 63, the whole chapter

Who is this who comes from Edom,
With dyed garments from Bozrah,
This One who is glorious in His apparel,
Traveling in the greatness of His strength?””

"I who speak in righteousness, mighty to save.”

Why is Your apparel red,
And Your garments like one who treads in the winepress?

"I have trodden the winepress alone,
And from the peoples no one was with Me.
For I have trodden them in My anger,
And trampled them in My fury;
Their blood is sprinkled upon My garments,
And I have stained all My robes.
For the day of vengeance is in My heart,
And the year of My redeemed has come.
I looked, but there was no one to help,
And I wondered
That there was no one to uphold;
Therefore My own arm brought salvation for Me;
And My own fury, it sustained Me.
I have trodden down the peoples in My anger,
Made them drunk in My fury,
And brought down their strength to the earth.”

I will mention the lovingkindnesses of the Lord
And the praises of the Lord,
According to all that the Lord has bestowed on us,
And the great goodness toward the house of Israel,
Which He has bestowed on them according to His mercies,
According to the multitude of His lovingkindnesses.
For He said, "Surely they are My people,
Children who will not lie.”
So He became their Savior.
In all their affliction He was afflicted,
And the Angel of His Presence saved them;
In His love and in His pity He redeemed them;
And He bore them and carried them
All the days of old.
But they rebelled and grieved His Holy Spirit;
So He turned Himself against them as an enemy,
And He fought against them.

Then he remembered the days of old,
Moses and his people, saying:
"Where is He who brought them up out of the sea
With the shepherd of His flock?
Where is He who put His Holy Spirit within them,
Who led them by the right hand of Moses,
With His glorious arm,
Dividing the water before them
To make for Himself an everlasting name,
Who led them through the deep,
As a horse in the wilderness,
That they might not stumble?”

As a beast goes down into the valley,
And the Spirit of the Lord causes him to rest,
So You lead Your people,
To make Yourself a glorious name.

Look down from heaven,
And see from Your habitation, holy and glorious.
Where are Your zeal and Your strength,
The yearning of Your heart and Your mercies toward me?
Are they restrained?
Doubtless You are our Father,
Though Abraham was ignorant of us,
And Israel does not acknowledge us.
You, O Lord, are our Father;
Our Redeemer from Everlasting is Your name.
O Lord, why have You made us stray from Your ways,
And hardened our heart from Your fear?
Return for Your servants’ sake,
The tribes of Your inheritance.
Your holy people have possessed it but a little while;
Our adversaries have trodden down Your sanctuary.
We have become like those of old, over whom You never ruled,
Those who were never called by Your name.

Clearly God is the one in control of all of this and men must respond. It is both.

Awakened,

I share your concerns.

Doctrine divorced from application is insanely dangerous. Not only does it cause men to honor the Lord only with their lips, but they consider themselves righteous because they have supposedly attained some degree of truth--which really is not truth, because if they believed the truth then their lives would change.

I am not going to say I am a calvinist, largely because I don't know what all that entails. Do I agree with some of the tenets, some.

As far as depravity goes, I agree that we are depraved. Just read the verses I posted from Isaiah. We cannot save ourselves. It's not possible. No one can pull themselves up by their boot straps. You just can't do it.

Even if you look at the tenents of arminianism, they affirm that the grace of God must awaken a man to the truth of the Gospel. They call it prevenient grace (a term I love).

I am arguing no position other than that. It takes God to awaken us and grant us repentance. I have no said at all that once that happens that a man MUST repent, largely because I do not think it is fruitful to discuss irresistable grace in the context of how we can be sure we are saved or not.

I think we can all agree on that. I also think that the burden rests upon the Lord for our salvation because we are neither the initiators nor the finishers. Salvation is wrapped in Christ and Christ alone, and apart from Him we have 0 hope.

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Edit: Note--please don't think that I am a proponent of the strictly arminian version of prevenient grace. I am just saying that God is the initiator. Thanks!

awakened writes:

You don't have to be a hyper-Calvinist or even have read anything of Calvin to agree with him or those who agree with him, and his teachings are very popular these days and on the rise.

The main problem with those in this camp and those on the fence is that most erroneously believe man does not have a free will, that he is a robot and God will not allow man to choose Him or reject Him. They say that God is totally sovereign and therefore in their minds and in their human definitions and human understanding it does not compute that God would ever allow man to chose. This all stems from the erroneous teaching of total depravity. That a sinner no longer has the ability to respond to God. It is flawed and once a person buys into this it taints absolutely everything, including the subject at hand - repentance.

This is a clumsy analogy but I have horses and they have a will of their own, but I have captured them and they are under my "sovereign" will or control. I can feed them or I can starve them, I can let them live or I can shoot them. I let them run around but they have a very finite area bounded by the fences I have put them in. Yes they have a free will but it is very limited. In a similar way man has a free will but it is completely limited and confined within the boundaries that God has made for him. God has willed that man can accept or reject Him, accept or reject His forgiveness. In this way we see Gods sovereignty and mans free will in harmony.

This issue of Calvinism vs Arminianism is one over which we must be careful not to be divisive. I believe the wise thing to do is to humbly acknowledge the good arguments from both sides without attacking either one. As long as it's not hyper-Calvinism or on the other hand hyper-Pelagianism which gives man way too much credit.

BTW, I hope I didn't come across as offensive in my last post. I was trying to throw in some light humor. I sometimes stick my foot in my mouth with that kind of thing :) I think we all love Gary's sense of humor here.

Hey Gary I was wondering where you live... This morning you said you were going to bed as I was getting ready to head to work. So either you are in a way different time zone or just keep some odd hours!

Thanks brother Mark. I couldn't resist that one when I read your analogy :). But I know I gotta be careful cause sometimes cheesy jokes like that can come across and be taken the wrong way. I find it very interesting that your are able to attend that church. Good to hear you are not that adamant about this issue.

This has been a refreshing discussion, great points raised, probably we have all learned something. We should after all, be way more than friends, we are brothers and sisters in the kingdom of God. Surely we must joke and tease one another from time to time as siblings do!

I just want to add one more thing about repentance, and was reminded by the words in Havok20x's recent post- that doctrine divorced from application is insanely dangerous. I can't argue with that!

Repentance is certainly one of those doctrines. On the surface, and just taking it to the dictionary, it is loaded with gloom and discomfort. We might think of a repentant person as moaning in sorrow and agony, living out the plight of Eeyore- Milne's sad and depressed Winnie the Pooh character.

But that is never God's intention for His children. In another post, the quote of II Corinthians 7:10, "Godly sorrow produces repentance that leads a man to salvation, AND THERE ARE NO REGRETS; but the sorrow of the world produces death." (Caps my emphasis)

The true product of repentance is a full and realistic joy, with solid happiness that does not fade away. This is doctrine married to application! So many cleave to the regrets because their repentance is only conditional.

Real repentance in my experience does produce genuine joy, the kind that carries you over the junk of life thrown in your path to drag you back to despair. Life is from God, it is good, it should be lived that way.

As Paul writes, "I know how to live with abundance, and how to live with nothing."

His joy rode above that, ours should too.

wow havoc your to kind beleive me its a privliage to be able to talk with my brothers here on sermon index you to awakened im verry privliged ,,,this is a close as it gets to a church for me ,,and tmk good to talk brother

brothers i wont continue to talk about my view scince it sounds like it is to close to calvinism ,,and i dont want to have this go sour ,,its been edafing

but mark let me just say ,,that i dont hold to the exact same view of election as they do , it is different ,,and they would not except it as calvinism ,i believe in a unaversal atonement as well

so believe me if you add to that the gifts of the spirit and casting out deamons ,,,i realy dont fit in to the calvin camp

oh tmk im in australia queensland

how that mark gods leading you to a reformed church ,and hes leading me to a carsmatic church

i went to a reformed church one time ,,,it was werid they seemed to cater to the children like it was a sunday scool ,,i didnt realy like that one

thanks oraco im glad my dry scence of humor doesnt offend ...i would love to fellowship with you gyes ,,the gyes at my work place think im an old boring dude becasue im a christian and i have grey hair ,,far out man im only 38 ,,i rekon its cause i dont get enough good fellow ship ,,the boys at work are sending me grey with there stupid pop music and boring conversasion ,,,id rather be talking to you gyes ,,they dont want to hear about jesus ,,theyed rather her about dynamo the magician

good point side walk joy is sulry a part of repentence mmi think it is conected to brokenness

Quote: The true product of repentance is a full and realistic joy, with solid happiness that does not fade away. This is doctrine married to application! So many cleave to the regrets because their repentance is only conditional.

This is so true. I think we can see this in the life of Paul. I picture him pre conversion as a bitter man plagued by guilt ("kicking against the goads") and post conversion he became the apostle of joy. A person under conviction is in misery until he repents. Then the joy comes!

One my favorite things to listen to is an audio compilation I have of recently saved persons giving their baptism testimonies. You can hear the joy in their voices even through their tears. It is mixed in with audio bible reading and is designed as an evangelistic tool. It's called "Freedom" and I found it on the old "fire on the altar" website. Anyways it's really powerful and is evidence of the joy of repentance.