pharmakia

how can we we be consistent in making a difference between drugs like marawana and other over the counter drugs like codein for lets say pain relief , by using the term pharmacia which incompasses all drugs

marawana has been used for years as a medicen in the same way opiats and other herbs are used ,,and to be consistent all must come under the same banner of pharmkia now that marawana is legalised in many places how can we preach againsts the medisional uses of that drug and say other pain killers that do similar things and say to the sinner the later are difernet and exceptable to god ,,or do we need to denie the use of all herbs and drugs that do similar things

this has botherd me to draw a line like that when the bible draws no line but uses the word phramakia to link drugs and wichcraft ,,

what does the bible realy teach us about medisins and wichcraft ,,and drunkeness ,,and idolartys

what are your thoughts ,, i know some christians believed in totaly denial of drugs in medisisns ,,probale becasue of the verses about pharmakia and sorcery ,,,

what is the greek word for drunkeness

and how can we be bibical about addictions and preach clearly about the sin of adictions

idoliarity is what seems to me to be the wepon to bring conviction in the area of drug use ,,but that thgen opens the dorr for medical uses of marawana and opiats for certaint things

what are your thoughts about how the bible expresses the truths about this

please no opinions based of experence and how you are bought up or what your chruch teaches

what does the bible say about this

blessings

How to differentiate? Use common sense!

It's a bit like asking how to make a difference between surfing the internet for good legitimate purpose and using it to access porn. It's the same word (internet) and same medium, but it's how and what you use it for. Same for drugs. There are good and legitimate use of drugs and bad use of drugs.

There are plenty of alternatives for pain relief to dope. Unless you want to be 'dopey' and off your head, you will avoid it. Mostly it is used for recreational mind altering purposes despite what some would try to convince otherwise.

I would go by their intended use.

If you are using a drug to get into a psychedelic state or frenzy as part of Baal worship, not recommended.

If you are taking a pain med for a bad toothache, I don't see a problem with it.

Now I do think that we should take as few medications as possible and to try some home remedies in certain situations.

now that is exactly what the bible does not say brother

with respect it does not say use your common scence

and im no exacly how drugs are used for recreation and medicies ,,,i dont want to let our hippy culture so to speak influence my views

what does the bible realy teach about this ,,no comon scence please ,,,just bible

im not talking about me useing pot either ,,,
i want to be bibical and not let cultual scence or comon scence or legalisim ,or any thing eles effecet my witness against sin and its definitions

gary what exact verse are you referring to?

Well Gary, I think as Christians we often loose sight of our God given common sense. We get lost in 'word play' studying exact meanings of words for the most obvious things, when even unbelievers know what is right and wrong!
It's like we can't see the wood for the trees!!

I'll stick with common sense on this one. There is a good place for studying out meaning of biblical words, but not in this case. It can be used to justify something it was never meant to. I've heard this argument many times over the years and it is nearly always made by those who want to justify their desire to take mind altering drugs, be that marijuana's, Opium, cocaine or anything else.

Surely if you want to be biblical it is like this.

As Christians we are called to be Alert, sober, spiritual minded, etc. You can't do that if you are using drugs to dull your senses. If you are very ill and have little option but to take some pain relief, that is a different case and motive. Even then you will choose something that has the minimum effect on your clarity of mind.

As for unbelievers, they are in sin anyway (being in unbelief) and there many be different reasons they take or are addicted to drugs. The root issue here is for them to be reconciled to God and then they won't want or need to take drugs to dull their minds to avoid reality.

In Bible times, and and I am sure still today, drug use was associated with black magic, divination and other dark practices.

So again I think cultural context is important here. Was the scripture forbidding the use of all medication, or all the dark practices in which certain drugs were used?

Gary, the Bible tells us to be sober-minded. Dave pointed that out. It also says be circumspect, not foolish but wise, redeeming the time for the days are evil. It says sow to the Spirit and not to the flesh. To pursue holiness.

If a drug tends to make me not sober-minded, foolish, unwise, and is a pursuit of the lust of the flesh, lust of the eyes or the pride of life, then it is of the world and I need to avoid it.

Marijuana makes a person unsober. It leads to foolishness of thought, it promotes it. The entire culture of its use has Cheech and Chong and the characters from That 70s Show as exemplary. It is used with the purpose of sowing to the flesh.

But, if I take Pepto Bismol for my stomach's sake, I'm none of these. I just need something to relieve my bellyache and whatever else that stuff is good for. It doesn't make my mind operate differently, unsoberly. I'm not going to sit around a table with friends and a liter of Pepto and giggle about ladies in swimwear.

There are "medicines" that people take for legitimate ailments that DO, however, take them down the road of foolishness and flesh. This is where the pharmaceutical industry and doctors are making hay in America. Mood altering drugs, prescribed for mood conditions, marketed as cures and treatments, and are positively devastating. They turn people into addicts, and people who are sowing to the flesh already have no defense. People who would walk in the Spirit and take them for mood conditions are, in my view, walking in the flesh, but I cannot be too careful in rushing to judgment on that -- it is my opinion only. Certainly, it is a baited trap. And, the same can be said for opiate based pain killers to a large extent; they are vastly overused and turned to quickly by even Christians. This is distressing. It is bondage.

We need perspective. You are looking for a bright line to draw. Not that there isn't a line, but it is not necessarily a black and white one where all drugs are on one side of it and none are on the other. That isn't biblical, either. Even Paul told Timothy to have a little wine for his stomach. A little. Why? Because in excess there is mockery and rage and foolishness. I submit that the first sip taken for other than the strict need is exactly that, foolish and sowing to flesh. But, it isn't a line where the thing itself--wine in Timothy's case-- is swept in where it is a useful treatment of a physical condition that does not alter the mind.

For when they speak great swelling words of emptiness, they allure through the lusts of the flesh, through lewdness, the ones who have actually escaped from those who live in error. While they promise them liberty, they themselves are slaves of corruption; for by whom a person is overcome, by him also he is brought into bondage. For if, after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and overcome, the latter end is worse for them than the beginning. For it would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than having known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered to them. But it has happened to them according to the true proverb: "A dog returns to his own vomit,” and, "a sow, having washed, to her wallowing in the mire.”

If it is something that overcomes me, it has enslaved me. Period.

The difference is whether you are overcome by it. Is anyone overcome by Advil? By Pepto? By Insulin? No.

Marijuana, yes. Tobacco, yes. Some perscription drugs, yes.

Prove all things; hold fast that which is good.

Abstain from all appearance of evil.

And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

Faithful is he that calleth you, who also will do it.

Abstain from even looking evil. I wouldn't take medical marijuana if someone paid me a kazillion dollars to do it or if it was the only "cure" to some ailment I had. Why? Because I am not even going to look like I am doing evil. Look at what Paul says immediately after--our whole spirit and body to be preserved. So this isn't a gnostic kind of life where we can have spirits that are preserved and just let our bodies sin it up.

That's not a systematic theology, but those are some Scriptures that I immediately thought of.

Here in NC the state lawmakers just passed a bill to allow the use of CBD oil which is extracted from the marijuana plant and contains no THC.

It has shown great benefit in treating children with terrible seizure disorders. You see these kids on the news and it rips your heart out. I can't imagine having to deal with that on a daily basis. You can bet if I had a child with that condition I would have been lobbying hard for passage of that bill.

So even when it comes to certain uses of marijuana for true medical reasons I am not opposed. Nor would I be opposed to narcotic medication for severe pain control even though though they are derived from the same plants (coca and poppy) that have been so destructive to society.

It comes down to legitimate use that does not lead to sin.

I think some very good points have been made on the side of confronting the sinful use of drugs. God's Word is very clear on being sober and vigilant and being filled with the Holy Spirit as opposed to being filled with intoxicating drink. When out on the streets evangelizing I sometimes come across professing Christians who justify the use of recreational marijuana. It seems we may be seeing more of that from churches in the coming days as the current apostasy increases rapidly.

Oracio,

It is easy to do. When we dont' know the Word, we can be tossed around by every wind of doctrine.

tmk I wsnt refuring to your post at my first comment but heydave

I don't like common scence because ,,,that wont work when I tell a sinner to repent of sin but use his common scence regarding pot use be it for pain or relaxation,, which is the common use ,,,,,,and the bible says one who only has milk does not desern between good and evil properly ,but only the mature ,,so I cant tell the young Christian to use common scence

im just asking a few questions in a bunch or superette issues ,,,don't get me wrong ,,I know by new testament well and our call for sobriety ,,,that realy has nothing to do with my concernes in preaching and defining sin

because the average uses of recreationl pot that I work with and know in most cases will claim that he is sober most of the time and can work and do every thing nomale,in the same way he would after a few beers and or a few pain killers for strong back pain

im about to go out so I will address you gys alittle more clearly later thanks for you coments

tmk ,,you raise the questions about phramakai that I want others to address bibicaly and not opinionaly

because when we look at two drugs like pot and codein for strong pain relief in a state that has both legalised ,,it would be hard to preach against one as a sin and the other as exceptable ,,,,I know of a woman who has wreak her spine and stumbles everywhere on a wlking stick ,,,consingned to morhine for the rest of her life ,, has fond pot to be a beter treatment and much much less intoxicating and less harsh on her mind and body

these issiues make it difical to adrees bibicaly with balance

any more ides on what the bible iludes to in case like this as well as the other points

please if you can try to draw from scripture because I want that to be the wepone to bring correction

what does pharmakia mean and how is this relevant to medicine

blessings

Gary, let me qualify and explain my comments.

In my experience most people and especially believers have enough 'sense' and wisdom to know that taking any drugs for recreational purposes is foolish and a dangerous road to follow. Your point about the use and distinguishing between drugs for medicinal use is a different issue.

I think that your desire to find a scriptural basis for preaching against the sin of pot smoking to unbelievers is probably not the right path to go downfall. My earlier point is that they are dead in sin anyway and their whole life (not just this one thing) is estranged from God. They need to hear the gospel and repent and be reconciled to God. Then once reconciled they will come into the wisdom of God and have the desire to be sober, etc and not want to be enslaved to anything such as dope. This is my experiencd with those who were smoker's. They did not need to be told not to smoke, their conscience was awaken after they were born again and they desired to give it up. It was pointless telling them before they were saved that they should not smoke.

Trust this is clearer and explains what has been said by many about the scriptural principles that we then use biblical common sense to understand what is acceptable or not. An example would be gambling. Nowhere in the bible does it say gambling is sin, but we all know it is wrong. Why is this? I would suggest that it is because we know that covetousness is a sin and gambling is love of money that often leads to addiction and bondage. So we don't need a specific verse that say 'thou shalt not gamble' or 'thou shalt not smoke dope'.

God bless you.

yea dave I see what your saying ,,but like you said it might be most have the scence,, but im talking about the minority that don't have the scence

they do need to hear the gospel and repent ,,,repent from what sin ,and torwards god ,,,,if they don't believe cigertes and pot smoking are sin ,,they say you need god that good for you I don't need god pot smoking is not sin realy im not hurting any body

brother I know you say in your experience ,,,but that is often different for different people

in my experience I wasted ten years smoking pot wile after being born again ,,because I could not find where in the bible it was sin ,,ignoring ,,the small voice of conviction ,,it came down to idolatry and it it took me a long time to understand what idlolarty was

brother I wasnt looking for the particular verse that said cannabis sativa is sin if you smoke

but what is the best biblical way to point out sin as sin

saying to these gyes that smoking pot is witchcraft ,,doesn't have any effect ,excepted make look like im talking trash

brother dont you think the gospel is also calling a person to repent of sins ,,,particular sins rather then glossing over sins and not explaining what they are

blessings to ya

Hi Gary

When scripture uses the word pharmakeia it seems to be in association with dark arts, I.e. the use of drugs in conjunction with idolatry or necromancy etc.

If you are looking for a definition of what pharmakeia is in scripture I don't think it is there. We don't even know what drugs they were using in association with those dark purposes. Probably a hallucinogen of some sort but scripture does not say.

So we have to be guided by other scriptures regarding sobriety etc. I think we also have to weight benefit vs. harm. It's easy for those of us who don't suffer from intractable pain to tell those who are that they shouldn't take a certain drug, even a drug like cannabis.

brother im not saying that a sinner can stop sinning before he comes to Christ ,,,,,but he can be convicted of sins and see his sinfulness even in what he thought was harmless fun

I realise conviction can come after coversion ,, but I don't think that is the normal way gods spirit works ,,tho that was my conversion ,,,,,,,if we look at scripture both john the baptise and jesus preach againsts all manner of sins before the gospel was proclaimed ,,,,the people should have been convicted and ready to receive

yea I agree with you tmk ,,,,,

it strange to me that Christians would uses pharmaika to sugest that people who take drugs are sinning ,,,it seems out of context

regarding sorbrity ,,that would work but if a user is using very small amounts and is still sober and not druken ,,then its hard to use that as a tool to convict

your last paragraph I agree with very hard ,,,when many of the same people who say you cant uses cannabis say morphine or codein is fine ,,,,,,where is the logic and common scence in that

Gary,

Quote: "in my experience I wasted ten years smoking pot wile after being born again ,,because I could not find where in the bible it was sin ,,ignoring ,,the small voice of conviction ,,it came down to idolatry and it it took me a long time to understand what idlolarty was"

I understand we all come in at different places and have different reactions and experiences. However I think what you said here shows you probably were given a wrong understanding of the gospel. This is the issue I am addressing and I think colours your thinking in now wanting to warn others.

True life in Christ is not about looking for laws in the bible that prohibit or allow certain behaviour. This is legalism in either direction. Certainly we read the bible to see how God expects us to live, but not from the view of I can do what ever I like as long as the bible does not explicitly prohibit it. We see what is God' will for us in in many passages of scripture and then apply that to all circumstances and activities of our life, wanting to please Him and walk in the Spirit with all wisdom and sobriety, having the mind of Christ in all things.

Have a good day!

you misunderstand my intenions compleatly if you think that dave ,,that is the exact opasite ,,the verry opasite and basicly not even the context of why i asked the questions
not to justafie sin as you have said ,,i dont see how you could imagine i was saying that

i am a product of comnscence as you put it ,,with out a paster or preacher ,,i was converted with a bible and the holy spirit ,,,and my nature was transformed from an angry agresive meth addict ,,to a soft broken wepping joyfull gratfull saint ,,but i strugeld with pot and cigertes ,,becasue i was the only one teaching me the bible ,,me and my comonscence

brother the last paragraphe you posted is realy contradidting ,,,,

you said ,,,,True life in Christ is not about looking for laws in the bible that prohibit or allow certain behaviour. This is legalism in either direction.

yet jesus gave us writtern laws by his mouth and the apostals mouths,,and jesus exorts us if we love him we will keep them ,,,that is true christianty,, not just reliing on experence and concence and comonscence

then you contradict that with ....... We see what is God' will for us in in many passages of scripture and then apply that to all circumstances and activities of our life, wanting to please Him and walk in the Spirit with all wisdom and sobriety, having the mind of Christ in all things.

gods will is to keep his comands the laws from his lips
his writtern laws ..his will was to do things pleaesing ,,and abstain from the fleshly desires
,,, brother dont misunderstand me and think im preaching keeping the law of moses

brother those questions io asked didn not have any thing to do with leaglisim of as you seem to think that nor from the wild usumtion ..... the view of I can do what ever I like as long as the bible does not explicitly prohibit it

i allready know the bible is explist on certaint things ,,so i was asking if any one knew how to bibicaly deal with certaint situation in witnessing christ and the apostals teachings when it is not explisitly comanded

for me i found out that even have the smalest adiction was a form of idolary ,,and god wants to cleans us from all our idols ,,even the idols of our hearts ,,the old testament made that clear ,,,so for me realy the old testament in this instance showed me my sin for what it was brought clear conviction and the new covenrt blood set be free

calling pot and cigertes pharmakia and socrcery ,,did nothing but make me question how people came to that conclusion

blessings

I haven't read all the posts in this thread, if someone has already this point, I apologize.

Marijuana will become legal, there is too much money to be made off of the taxes... but that aside, for Christians, it will be the exact same as alcohol...some drink a little, a lot or none at all; and some will smoke a little, a lot or not at all. Oh and I'm quite sure after that a new sermon will emerge for years in the churches, preaching against the evils of smoking pot, for whatever reasons.

We need to remember that everyone must work out there own salvation with fear and trembling before the Lord. Just my two cents worth! :) :) :)

God bless,
Lisa

lisa so are you saying for a christian that a littel pot is of just like a glass of wine

i believe pesonly and i will tell christians ,,,even a little of this halusnagen will make one supeptable to demonic opresion and stronghold that will harm them and draw them in to the flesh ,,the same as drinking to much wine will ,,but i can only draw that from experence

work that one out with fear and trembleing ,,and hear from one who has smoked that shit for years ,and i feel the holy spirit made that clear to me about drumkenss and recreationl pot use

god used some of derik prince to help me see that and a dream ,,and that has been one of the only dreams that i feel the holy spirit has givern me

it not exacly the same as alchole it is a halusnigen ,,and this will open the door to demonic opresion for christian ,,where alchole wont unless one drinks to much and gets drunk

Gary,

I am sorry if I misjudged you. As I said I do understand that we all come from different backgrounds and experiences and do not always see some things as clearly and quickly as we might.

I was only picking up on what you said was the reason you continued to smoke dope for 10 years, which was you could not find a scripture to tell you not to.

I guess I did misunderstand you, as I understand the Lord showed you it was idolatry which set you free. I thought you were asking for scriptures showing a direct reference to not taking any drug.

Anyway I rejoice in what God has done in your life. Also I agree with your last post. Maybe this is the approach you need to use in witnessing, along with your personal testimony.

OK, my thoughts are all over the map this afternoon, so here goes.

Thought #1:

I have not read closely all posts in regard to your question but I do have my ideas on this subject.

God says in Genesis 1:29: "And God said, Behold, I have given you every herb bearing seed, which is upon the face of all the earth, and every tree, in the which is the fruit of a tree yielding seed; to you it shall be for meat."

I gather from this that every plant that bears seed has some value to humans, whether it be for food or medicinal use. The problem we see today is (1) we are ignorant of all the benefits plants provide for mankind and (2) what is know can and will be misused. This is through no fault of God, the creator, but the perversion that resulted when man chose to disobey God. From that point on the devil worked to pervert everything God did.

Based upon the fact that God created marijuana I can see the possibly of it being used to benefit humans.

Hmmmm....but I do wonder about poison ivy, poison oak...must be still ignorant. Oh, I have heard that birds use poison ivy to protect their young from snakes but they are not humans...

Doing a check on the web I find there are few species of plants that do not produce seeds. Interesting.

Man has not plumbed the depth of the blessings contained in the vegetation that surround us.

Thought #2:

RE: common sense...Got a question: what is the difference between common sense and wisdom that Proverbs talks a lot about?

dont be sorry dave ,,i praise god to for his mercy i can fully understand why you would say what you did reagring legalisim and abusing libery due to lake of clear cut comands ,,,it just wasnt the case in this instant ,,,,but is a issue every where esepisialy in australia

bless you brother

that is the great scripture ginny that satan uses to keep christians in bondage ,,,,,it lliteraly says food ,,,,,,,dont try any hash cake ,,but the seeds are full of protein

if it is used as a medicine by a baby christian for comon aliments for back pain neck pain ,,it will likely be abused due to the extreamly addictive nature of pot and the lake of mature common scence and wisdom ,that all baby christian have

I fear that this discussion is missing the mark.
We'd do far better to consider the crisis in our society - the reasons WHY there is so much substance abuse - be that illegal meth in youth, or prescribed opiates in the elderly (morphine, etc).

An addictions counselor put it this way, "Youth take these substances to self-medicate, to help them cope with pain - the pain of anxiety, rejection, meaninglessness, and so forth. Something in their environment has gone terribly wrong. They truly do need relief, and they take these substances to help them cope. But unfortunately it turns around and bites them.

Indisputably the epidemic of substance abuse closely corresponds with the absence of healing grace and love in people's lives.

But if Christians are preoccupied with the letter of the law, what's right or wrong, black or white then they will be less inclined to empathize with those who suffer secret agonies caused by sin-sickness.

It may be those who would never consume a wrong substance are guilty of the greater sin: The failure to show the world what grace is.

Diane

with all respect sister no one has said a drug user is a worst sinner then others or even a christian not doing what he should by bring light to others

sister you may think this discusion is missing the mark which is sin ,,,because no here is mentioning the reasons why people are drug adicted ,,,,who said we or i have not concidered the crises in socity ,,that is a blanket gerelisation of us in whom you know nothing ,of what we know and our relationships with drug addicts and brokeness or compassions for reaching the lost

sister dont confuse the leter of the law of moses ,,with the teachings of christ and the apoatsals ,, and compare who you do not know nor having never met with
leglaists ,,that would be missing the mark on your part with out doubt

sister you mention adictions councelers ,,,,why consult the dead or the world system to get worldly wissom for counceling ,,at best it cant produce faith and true repentence and true victory over sin

god said the wisdom of this world is foolishness in the sight of god ,,,,my wife as been a counceler for many years ,and now sees the total contradiction towards the counceling of the holy spirit

lets look to the councel of scripture ,,,and how jesus and the apostals delt with adictions like drunkenss or intoxation ,,,we would do far beter doing that ,,,

this topic was realy dealing with only one or two aspects or drug use,,,,how to show the sinner that is truly sin by useing the sowrd of the spirit wich is the word of god ,,,that doesnt mean there arent others problems and situations that cant be delt with and talked about ,, this topic is not intended to minamise any other factors of dealing with and understanding drug adictions

you said
An addictions counselor put it this way, "Youth take these substances to self-medicate, to help them cope with pain - the pain of anxiety, rejection, meaninglessness, and so forth. Something in their environment has gone terribly wrong. They truly do need relief, and they take these substances to help them cope. But unfortunately it turns around and bites them

you know adultry and fornacation stealing ,paryting and other sins are often used for the same reasons as above

but it is still rebelion and sin and detestable to to lord ,,,minamiseing it and surgar coating sin is not what jesus did nor did the apostals do this ,,,the world does that in this gerneration ,,and that is whay we have no awkenings and revivles like in the past when sisn was made to be excedingly sin full ,,paul said it was the law that did that for him ,, paul and peter and john for instants called sin out and made it seem verry sinfully ,,not one mention of why peopple sind in that way ,,like saying they just wanted to be loved so they sinned ,,or just wanted to escape pain ,so they sinned,,they never mentioned that onces in there councels and teachings ,,so even it is true it was erelevent to how they preached and taught and delt with the depraved socity

so siter with love ,must say your comment has realy missed the mark of scripture ,and our example setters jesus and the opastals and drew from the world system wich is not from god ,,the wisdom of this word is develish and deceving ofering no victory over sin but a mear bandaid ,, which may only be of a temporal help and can and does acctualy hinder the gosple ,,,my wife still strugles with the contrasts and contradiction that the world taught her in counceling for 25 years of drug and ackhole and marriage counceling

blessings