Practicing the Presence of God

I use Freemake Video Downloader to download free sermons (and burn them to DVDs also).

One of Freemake's software also lets a person take the MP3 portion out of the Youtube video. Make sure it is legal to do so for the particular video/mp3.

http://www.freemake.com/free_youtube_converter/

Take care

edit:
PS - there is "adware" that comes with the package, which if you select out of installing the "adware", you can have the freemake software, without any extra adware installed. read carefully.

Do you know of anyway I could download the mp3 for this?

Brother we added it in mp3 format here: https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/mydownloads/viewcat.php?cid=1457

Union with God, which is gained through certain disciplines, one of which will is always breath prayers.

This might be the principle in Eastern religions, but it is not so in the church, even the Catholic Church.

Union with God, as in John of the Cross' "Dark Night of the Soul" is to obtained through grace alone and is classed as a gift. The practices of contemplative prayer, are to 'make a space' for God to work, or in other words, to devote ourselves to seeking for God, or hungering and thirsting for righteousness. This is what Brother Lawrence is talking about.

Christian mysticism is sadly greatly misunderstood and condemned because people do not understand this distinction.

breand i find it a huge contradiction ,that you would preach the spirit batism as the means to reach the holy intamant leval with god ,,and then talk about christian mystasisim as the path

There is no contradiction. The aim is what mystics call union and what evangelicals call baptism of the Spirit, the effect is the same though the pathway in the mystical tradition is of three stages and involved the same practices of repentance and obedience to the light given. It is falsely believed that mystics think that it is their efforts which achieve the aim but this only applies to eastern mysticism.

Saints,

As others have shared many godly men including John Wesley have spoken well of this book and author as a help in our spiritual walk towards God. Brother Lawrence did not teach "breath prayer" as one poster has said and also the majority of Christians do not either. I personally am not aware of any evangelicals who do but I am sure there are a few. Reading discernment sites do not get us closer to God but fill us with confusion, hurt, and dismay. If we seek to be closer to God in prayer then He will give us all the discernment we need by the Holy Spirit.

Tozer and others have believed also there are true believers in the Catholic church as well in other earlier churches. We as evangelicals believe the Church began with martin luther but there was 1500 of Church history before this. We should be open to learn some of the godly traditions of fasting and prayer that the Church has excelled in for 1500+ years.

A note for Gary: Brother thank you for all you write but I have to comment on the spelling, there are in many of the recent posts so many mis-spelled words it was very hard to read what you wrote. I suggest a few things:

1. Not to use ,, to seperate words but rather use periods and proper sentence structure.

2. Slow down when you write and re-read what you write slowly correcting errors before you submit.

3. STRONGLY RECOMMENDED: Spell checker plugins. If you use firefox this is free: https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/spell-checker/ If you use internet explorer this is free: http://www.iespell.com if you use Chrome here is a free one: https://chrome.google.com/webstore/detail/spell-checker-for-chrome/jfpdnkkdgghlpdgldicfgnnnkhdfhocg?hl=en

There is a lot written about Quietism that is just plain wrong, and I don't know where I stand on it as I don't fully understand the various teachings on it, and there is also a great danger in it if it is not properly understood. At its basis, it seems, is the reality that when one walks in the Spirit, all impulse and therefore life, is to come from the Holy Spirit, as the core of ones being and the motions of the flesh or our human internal actions are stilled, so that it is Christ living within us and not us. But it is hard to put it into words exactly - it has to be experienced. It is not a death to the self which is from eastern religions, but that self is denied.

Passive contemplation or indeed contemplation is another thing that is being misunderstood and confused with eastern religions again.

Contemplation, in traditional mysticism, is the state where one is united with God in spirit, when one is set free from the power of sin, and where one dwells in the light.

Passive contemplation, is the act whereby God infuses this state as grace, without any action being taken by man, it is a gift and can only be given when God alone decides.

In this state, self will is annihilated, but that does not mean that man cannot bring his self will back to life if he chooses, and gets back down from the cross as it were. It does not mean that self is annihilated, just that self direction is and one is directed purely by the Holy Spirit.

Our souls are absorbed into the divine essence when we are one with the Father in His holiness.

It is so very close to eastern religions and it takes discernment to know the difference but it is a fatal error to dismiss the real and the fake. Men have always strove to reach that state of perfection, but have devised ways of re-enacted it without the necessary sacrifice and worship to God alone, worshiping idols instead. But it is possible to gain some of the benefits through brainwashing and putting self to death.

I totally agree with you Mike. The Pursuit of God encouraged me to want to know Him more. Many heresy hunting sites I have checked out over the years are coming from a cessasionist angle and have complete contempt, dare I even say even hatred, for any person who believes in the gifts and in speaking to God personally and in hearing God speak. This is the essence of the truly religious person, who despises the thought that God actually speaks to His children and His children know that still small voice............bro Frank

It is not wrong or just some type of religious self effort to remind ourselves of what God in Christ has already done for us and in us.

It is very important to know that this thinking can never cause these facts to be true or make them true. The Devine facts of what God in Christ has already done for us and in us can never be changed but we can embrace them and enjoy them. Lets never forget that true Christianity is fact that it is Christ Himself living and dwelling within us.

We can embrace these facts every day and just enjoy Him!

Murrcolr, has God not taken up residence within your heart?......bro Frank

Dear Murrcolr, it is the man who cannot see that God dwells in him that has reduced this spiritual reality to a mere philosophy.

Joh 14:23 Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.

Praise God that The Father and the Son, through the power of the Holy Spirit has taken up residence in our hearts. This is no mere theology, it is reality. And those who talk about inward gazes merely use flowery language to speak of this reality, this includes Tozer and many others........bro Frank

Oracio wrote:

That type of unbiblical stuff is running rampant today with the emergent church movement and it is infiltrating many evangelical churches. It is deeply ingrained in much of Roman Catholicism, the new age movement and eastern mysticism

Indeed, this is the false mysticism that is invading the church at present.

Contemplative prayer begins with "centering prayer,” a meditative practice where the practitioner focuses on a word and repeats that word over and over for the duration of the exercise. The purpose is to clear one’s mind of outside concerns so that God’s voice may be more easily heard. After the centering prayer, the practitioner is to sit still, listen for direct guidance from God, and feel His presence.

Read more: http://www.gotquestions.org/contemplative-prayer.html#ixzz37TVZy9oG

A practitioner is exhorted to completely empty his/her mind, to just "be.” Supposedly, this helps one to open up to a greater spiritual experience. However, we are exhorted in Scripture to transform our minds to that of Christ's, to have His mind. Emptying our minds is contrary to such active, conscious transformation.

Read more: http://www.gotquestions.org/contemplative-spirituality.html#ixzz37TV4dZeC

This practice is indeed what eastern religions do - empty the mind and as we know from scripture, this is a dangerous practice as there is no such thing as an empty mind, some spirit will come into it.

Contemplative spirituality also encourages the pursuit of a mystical experience with God. Mysticism is the belief that knowledge of God, spiritual truth, and ultimate reality can be gained through subjective experience. This emphasis on experiential knowledge erodes the authority of Scripture. We know God according to His Word. "All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, so that the man of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work” (2 Timothy 3:16-17). God's Word is complete. There is no reason to believe that God adds additional teachings or truths to His Word through mystical experiences. Instead, our faith and what we know about God is based on fact.

Read more: http://www.gotquestions.org/contemplative-spirituality.html#ixzz37TVPeNL9

That we are to experience God subjectively, is scriptural, and not just 'mystical' and the belief that it is not, comes from the side of the church that will not accept any gifts of the Spirit for today's church nor will they accept a secondary experience by whatever name we wish to call it.

If God spoke directly to men under the Old Covenant, why would it be more blessed to have a book in our hands instead under the new? The apostles heard God speaking to them directly and in fact Paul received all of his teaching directly from the Holy Spirit.

The problem is that this false teaching of mysticism is mixed up with genuine experience of knowing Christ intimately and hearing Him speak to our hearts as a constant companion, teaching us which way we should go, to the left or to the right, in order to keep us from sin, and this knowledge of God is the union of Him that has been spoken of by spiritual believers in the past, like Andrew Murray with their directions of how to get to that stage, which is through submitting ourselves absolutely to Him in obedience to the light given already and spending time in fervent prayer.

This type of spirituality, was not invented by evangelicals however, it can be found throughout church history and for a large part, the church WAS the Catholic church unless you wanted to be put to death and there has always been room in it for this type of spirituality to survive.

If we throw out the baby with the bathwater all we will be left with is a book even a holy book. We were not to have a relationship with a book but to have a living, moment to moment feeding on Christ for our very life.

It is also a mistake to dismiss the whole thing if we have not managed to reach union, or second stage or whatever when there could be something important in the way, but if we refuse counsel from someone who has achieved it because of our own prejudices, or stubborn pride, then we have sold our inheritance for a pot of stew.

Dear Murrcolr, then we shall agree to disagree, hopefully while not consigning anyone to the category of heretic. Tozer is widely read across denominational lines because he consistently pointed people towards Jesus. To take a couple of lines from someone and make of it something the author has never taught is, at the very least , bearing false witness.

Again, a text without a context is quite easily turned into a pretext, it is what the " discerment," sites do all the time. I have seen good men torn to shreds on those sites simply because they believe in a supernatural God that still speaks to His people. Brother Yun a couple of years back was similarly treated because he told of how the Spirit of God told each person where and when to show up for a series of secret meetings..............bro Frank

Anything that has to do with catholic theology is incredibly dangerous. It is what the bible refers to as the "mystery of iniquity"

That is an extremely broad statement because the Church was One and was considered "catholic" meaning "universal" in the early church fathers time. Reading the Apostles Creed will verify that. So we cannot categorize the entire Church from its inception to be thus corrupted.

For those who read church history will understand it was not an immediate corruption at any point but a slow process of compromise in many areas including doctrinally.

True saints have been and still are in what we deem today as the Catholic Church. The charismatic catholic movement for instance did not all leave the catholic church. There are wheat and tares in all churches and some more then others.

But haven't God's people also always existed outside the Roman Catholic and Eastern Orthodox systems? Why do we need the writings of those who taught and believed such serious errors taught within Roman Catholicism? For example, I was reading that St. Augustine believed and taught the following Catholic dogma:

1. The canon of Scripture includes the Septuagint OT canon (deuterocanonicals, Apocrypha)
2. Authoritative Tradition
3. Baptismal regeneration and grace
4. Necessity of baptism for salvation
5. Real presence of Christ in the Eucharist (Lord's Supper)
6. The Mass is a sacrifice
7. Necessity of the Lord's Supper for salvation
8. Purgatory and praying for the departed
9. The communion of saints and saintly intercession
10. Authority of the Catholic Church
11. Apostolic Succession
12. Possibility of falling from grace
13. The sacrament of penance
14. Mary was ever virgin

God's people have always existed in and outside of the larger consensis of what is called the main Christian Church. Over the years many great errors were accepted hundreds of years after the apostles into the mainstream church.

Most evangelicals do not know that all the main translations of the bible including KJV had the Apocrypha in it. Martin Luther's translation did. The Apostles quoted from the Apocrypha. And it was considered a valued document for the church greatly by most.

Authoritative Tradition - Evangelical churches that are reformed have many traditions also that are not clearly in scriptures. The Apostles tradition was something in the scriptures therefore there are some things the Church has done over the years which is beneficial for discipline and use. Of course there are good and bad traditions, both in catholic, orthadox and also evangelical.

Baptismal regeneration and grace - Again parts of modern evangelicals find grace to be only mercy and not the ability to do. There needs to be a balance with this. And baptism was not an option or a merely symbol without importance. The Church in all different types valued and treated baptism essential if one is going to follow Christ.

Real presence of Christ in the Eucharist (Lord's Supper) - Again we go to far to say it is just a symbol and has no spiritual help. For Paul said if we eat it unworthily it will harm us so therefore it should beniift us if we reventially take the elements.

The Mass is a sacrifice - this is an extreme newer revelation of the catholic church. Augustin and catholics did not fully think of mass in this way in AD 300.

Necessity of the Lord's Supper for salvation - Again there is balance because many evangelicals take the Lord's supper flippantly like it is not important.

Purgatory and praying for the departed - I am not sure if it is right that augustine started that thinking for it was implimented much later on in the dark ages.

The communion of saints and saintly intercession - There is balance for evangelicals in this area because many do not understand that we are surrounded by a great cloud of witnesses in the ampitheatre with godly saints and angels alike watching us. It is a sobering thought that we are a part of the true Church of all who have believed and ONE with them who have gone on to be with the Lord.

Authority of the Catholic Church - The true Church has authority whether its a local church that is reformed or not. Submission to leadership is important.

Apostolic Succession - This is something that has been thrown out by most modern evangelicals but it was very important for MOST if not all Christian movements in history including Moravians, Methodists etc. John Wesley had a Orthadox priest ordain him as a bishop to be able to ordain his bishops for the methodist movement to be in the lineage of the Apostles.

Possibility of falling from grace - This is only not believed by some of the reformed segement of believers after Martin Luthers and Calvins teachings.

The sacrament of penance - Purgatory was invented in the middle ages and another wrong element of teaching allowed in the catholic system.

Mary was ever virgin - The balance is we do not honour Mary at all in evangelicalism where we should much more.

I just wanted to write these things to just let you know some balance on things you wrote and how evangelicals ourselves have many imbalanced thinking and everything is not as black and white as we would like to think.

Greg,

Respectfully brother I am not on a Catholic bashing campaign. But I found your last post to be troubling.

Are you giving some form of credence to the RCC?

Brother with respect I caution you on reading the church fathers or any man's systematic theology. Our ultimate authority is Christ through His Word.

My thoughts.

Blaine

You mention the authority of the RCC church. The RCC teaches that all authority is given to one man, the pope who they claim infallible. There is a big difference in that and submitting unto church leadership.

Sister,

Thank you for your comment. All of my comments on the points were simply to ask for balance in our thinking. Many saints want to accuse Augustine as the father of Catholism but then similarly many quote him as the father of Presdestinatism or Calvinism. Was he the father of both systems of thought?

I believe many of augustine's words are taken of its larger context and also used by certain groups later on in Church History to support their train of thought. Of course Augustine stated some new controversial ideas, thought it is easy to mis-quote older writers that wrote very long replies and used many words to convey a concept or thought.

It is simply impossible to not see the Roman Catholic influence in the reformation and reformation church practice, and of course this is not all bad because the RCC has had many of the early church traditions and kept them added other errors. the RCC which many argue during the dark ages was more formed is not the same as the Catholic One Church in the early church. There was just One Church really that most accepted.

My comments were to show saints that some of the RCC errors grew out of healthy right thinking in the early church, thus as evangelicals we need to understand this and not throw it all under the bus.

Yes the Scriptures are our example and rule yet they speak of the traditions, practices that the early church followed throughout the begin of its history.

I hope that makes it more clear that I am not supporting the errors of the formal RCC as it now is but seeing there has been healthiness in the Catholic church especially more closer in the beginning of the Church the first 300 years, etc.

Just another quite thought that around AD 350 our Bibles were compiled by the One Church and bishops at that point and other councils of the church made very clear statements towards doctrine that we hold to today as evangelical.

Oracio wrote:

When it comes to someone claiming to have heard God's voice audibly or anything similar to that, we must be cautious and test the spirits to see if they are from God. Throughout history it is due to those types of claims that many cults and heretical groups have been born.

Indeed and that is why we have scripture to confirm what God says, as He will never say anything that is opposed to it, it will be confirmed. Scripture however, is the fountain, but Christ is its source and primary revelation is to be direct communication with Him which is the way it has been for most of church history which was without a copy of the Bible for the average believer and those who were spiritually mature were to be classed as having authority and not just those having academic study of scripture.

But haven't God's people also always existed outside the Roman Catholic and Eastern Orthodox systems? Why do we need the writings of those who taught and believed such serious errors as taught within Roman Catholicism? For example, I was reading that St. Augustine believed and taught the following Catholic dogma:

I don't know enough about church history to comment on those who managed to exist outside of the church, but as today, there have always been those in the RCC who are spiritually enlightened and do not go along with what their church is teaching and of course, as Greg has said, the later teachings of the RCC. Of course, it was not the teachers as they would not be able to keep their positions. There has always been flexibility though for things that are not dogma. Some dogmas listed by you, are not properly understood by Protestants as Greg has pointed out earlier including when he said:

Purgatory and praying for the departed - I am not sure if it is right that augustine started that thinking for it was implimented much later on in the dark ages.

Even today a number of Catholics believe that purgatory is to take place in this life whilst one is going through 'the dark night' and they do not believe in 'praying for the dead' if the departed are with Christ and alive in Him.

We are sanctified by His Word of truth. We are washed through the Word. We are nourished and built up through the Word. It is a lamp unto our feet and a light unto our path. We must meditate on it day and night. We must esteem it above our daily bread. And there are so many other wonderful benefits that come from treasuring the Word of God in our hearts.

Scripture tells us that Jesus is the Word (John 1).

I think a clear distinction that needs to be made here is between seeking Christ, and seeking after an experience. Huge difference. One is in the Spirit and the other is in the flesh. If we focus on and seek after an experience we are sure to fail in finding true intimacy with Christ. We will find ourselves exerting ourselves in our own will power and it will always fail us. I have learned this principle the hard way and am still learning. May we seek after Christ through His appointed means. For as we do so He will be found by us as He has promised.

I am not talking about having esoteric experiences here, I am talking about hearing Christ speak to us directly and as a lamp that guides our feet so that we need not sin.

TMK writes............

"You really need to just stop denigrating AW Tozer who is one of the most respected and prophetic Christian leaders of the past 100 years. To equate Tozer with anything associated with the "kundalini awakening" is nothing but a slanderous lie.
You obviously cannot grasp the truth of what Tozer was teaching in that classic book or you would not be saying such horrible things about such a great man of God.I would certainly say to anyone following this thread to not be dissuaded from reading and listening to anything Tozer has ever wrote or said because of murrcolr's false accusations."

I agree entirely with the above comment by TMK. Very sad commentary indeed and without a shred of truth. Indeed a false accusation, murrcolr has certainly bore false witness against brother Tozer, may the Lord forgive him........bro Frank

I have just read Tozer's book and there is nothing of the sort that Colin is claiming.

Tozer is speaking of the interior life of keeping our mind's eye on Jesus, which is what the Christian mystics of the past taught, which will lead us onto the pathway of becoming holy which has no correlation at all in eastern religions, being as they are, uninterested in the concept of sin.

It is a shame that a spiritual man like Tozer who has encouraged many on the path of seeking righteousness has had his reputation denigrated on this forum.

Krautfrau writes...........

"I have just read Tozer's book and there is nothing of the sort that Colin is claiming.

Tozer is speaking of the interior life of keeping our mind's eye on Jesus, which is what the Christian mystics of the past taught, which will lead us onto the pathway of becoming holy which has no correlation at all in eastern religions, being as they are, uninterested in the concept of sin.

It is a shame that a spiritual man like Tozer who has encouraged many on the path of seeking righteousness has had his reputation denigrated on this forum. "

I wholeheartedly agree sister. The accusation against Tozer really just boggles the mind to anyone who has read him. Yet here is the thing I considered as I walked and prayed this morning. Saints all down through the ages have been falsely accused, maligned and had contempt poured upon them. I pray that I would be worthy enough to fall into the category that is maligned and falsely accused rather than be counted with those who falsely accuse and malign. And the wonder of it all was that those who found themselves falsely accused, loved their accusers. This can only be achieved by the Spirit of God. May the Lord pour out that Spirit upon us, and this would surely be an act of grace.............bro Frank

Hi Oracio, I think you need to re-read the comments. It is not about men being infallible or not questioning men , its about, well....this

"murrcolr calls that "The Kundalini awakening” and that's why he rejects the book.."

This is murcolr summing up of the book " The Pursuit of God." He claims that Tozer is teaching eastern practices, he does not. That is not a matter of opinion, he does not teach eastern practices nor does he teach or endorse " the Kundalini awakening." Not true is not true Oracio. Is there another name for making false claims about a brother?.....bro Frank

Krautfrau writes...........

"I have just read Tozer's book and there is nothing of the sort that Colin is claiming.

Tozer is speaking of the interior life of keeping our mind's eye on Jesus, which is what the Christian mystics of the past taught, which will lead us onto the pathway of becoming holy which has no correlation at all in eastern religions, being as they are, uninterested in the concept of sin.

It is a shame that a spiritual man like Tozer who has encouraged many on the path of seeking righteousness has had his reputation denigrated on this forum. "

I wholeheartedly agree sister. The accusation against Tozer really just boggles the mind to anyone who has read him. Yet here is the thing I considered as I walked and prayed this morning. Saints all down through the ages have been falsely accused, maligned and had contempt poured upon them. I pray that I would be worthy enough to fall into the category that is maligned and falsely accused rather than be counted with those who falsely accuse and malign. And the wonder of it all was that those who found themselves falsely accused, loved their accusers. This can only be achieved by the Spirit of God. May the Lord pour out that Spirit upon us, and this would surely be an act of grace.............bro Frank

If Tozer is speaking of the interior life, of keeping our mind's eye on Jesus, then one would have to ask what the mind's eye is and what the interior life is?

All these words are rubbish if we do not know what they mean. Does anyone really know what they mean or are we just repeating what we read?

In my own understanding I think that Colin is right to be concerned. Whether he is right about the Kundalini claim also needs to be thought about. What is the Kundalini spirit really? Does anyone actually know or are we once again just using words?

As for the idea that the "practise" of inwardly looking at Jesus leads to a holy life, I reject completely. Has anyone on here actually spent any genuine time in solitary mediation for months on end to experience these things? Or are we just using words again and skipping over there meaning. Tozer may very well make the claim that it is not necessary to have a monastic experience physically in the sense that Brother Lawrence did, but who knows what that means? Is it really possible to find Christ in you? If so where in you? If it is in your mind then you have abrogated truth already.

Finally why ought Colin not to say what he believes? Who said that expressing a concern either amounts to a judgement unto condemnation or a false accusation? Why cannot such a saying as Colin has made simple be a sincere one borne out of some deeper knowledge of his own?

I appreciate that these kinds of claims by Brother Lawrence are profound and they do have real meaning, but who has actually experienced them without inducing a state of mind which is the counterfeit of true spiritual depth.

Lo I call Him deep unto Deep
Never tiring, never sleep

The place that Lawrence is speaking of cannot be found by looking for it as though the natural mind knows where to find God. It can only be comprehended in the spirit. Likewise it can only be walked in daily by bringing the mind into obedience in all things and not simple by focusing on Christ. The mind is not the instrument by which Christ is comprehended.

Amrkelly,

Our brother was not " expressing a concern." He stated that Tozer's teaching was " a Kundalini spirit." You think accusing a brother of teaching and sharing a demonic spirit is " expressing a concern?" I think you are way of base brother, or perhaps you believe that Tozer taught demonic teachings? If you have read Tozer ( not quotes from discernment sites) and that is you opinion, then that is fine, let us know what you think and let the Body of Christ here decide if they think it is a false accusation or not. I have read around 30 Tozer books, and there is not one instance where he teaches a kundalina spirit or "solitary mediation for months." ............bro Frank

Our brother was not " expressing a concern." He stated that Tozer's teaching was " a Kundalini spirit." You think accusing a brother of teaching and sharing a demonic spirit is " expressing a concern?" I think you are way of base brother, or perhaps you believe that Tozer taught demonic teachings? If you have read Tozer ( not quotes from discernment sites) and that is you opinion, then that is fine, let us know what you think and let the Body of Christ here decide if they think it is a false accusation or not. I have read around 30 Tozer books, and there is not one instance where he teaches a kundalina spirit or "solitary mediation for months." ............bro Frank

I have no idea whether Colin was expressing a concern or not! I asked a rhetorical question. Only Colin knows what he fully intended to say and why.

I haven't visited any discernment sites of late, and the few times that I have I have found too much nonsense and blatant inaccuracies to trust a word of them. On the other hand I have no idea what a supposed discernment site is. What is more Frank I do not care to know.

As for Tozer I have read a few of his books going back some thirty years. I have absolutely no opinion at this moment and no especial recollection as to anything he may have said.

Lastly Frank you agreed with a statement made by Brenda and that had to do with the mind being the instrument by which men focus on Christ. As a matter of far greater importance than trying to discern others thoughts from a distance of many miles I tend to read their words and from that I can usually see what may be problematic with what they have said. So on that basis it is an easy thing to share my thoughts without having to second guess someones actual real intentions or else whether they have become a vehicle for the devil.

When I do read something and comment on what I read, the response may well make it necessary to exercise my spirit in order to understand things better, especially how best to approach a person. On the other hand words carry real meaning apart from what an individual intends by them or even understands them to mean. Satan makes use of the real meanings of words which are implicit in the very way the brain itself processes speech. In other words a statement which asserts that the deep experience of Christ, which Tozer and Lawrence, Nee, Guyon and others speak of, is carried out in the mind, has real and serious implications because it is simple not true.

I know this because I was saved in a cell and spent nearly a year in that solitary condition alone with the Lord for company. Which is why I can relate to Brother Lawrence and is precisely why I can relate and see the need of Tozer to assert that solitude is not a prerequisite for the deeper life. Being in a solitary place is no guarantee of anything, nor does the market place exclude the reality of knowing Christ in the inner man. I have by God's grace the benefit of both things. The cell and the city are equally fine to me.

The seriousness of saying that the mind is the instrument by which a man "gazes" on Christ is to miss the reality that the Holy Spirit does not dwell in the mind. Paul speaks of being renewed in our thinking, but he also speaks of being renewed in the spirit of the mind. Paul also tells us that we have the mind of Christ. It is clear that unless God Himself brings about this deeper and fully intimate experience of Christ within, we are at risk of inducing a counterfeit effect and therein lays the opportunity for demonic spirits who operate in and through the natural mind.

I think that Colin may have been better saying something less emphatic, nevertheless he may have good reason to believe what he is saying. Unless I read every Tozer book, according to your estimation I have no authority to comment. I cannot and do not trust the majority of websites because they are mostly nonsense or repetitive lies perpetuated by an ever increasing number of men and women who appear to have lost touch with real people.

Anyway Frank I am happy to go back to my meditations and endless "gazing" into the deep abyss of the soul if only to remind myself why Christ died. As I look inward Frank all I see is the flesh. By what instrument will I see Christ if I look inward by my own effort? Dangerous stuff mysticism and deep contemplation just scrapes the bottom of the barrel. There are more fools peddling it than you can shake a stick at. The ones I have met were little short of witches in need of a good soul massage. Give them one and you are a god too. Tell them to take their sorceries away and you become an object of fear or derision. Rarely do they repent. It is a deep sickness of the soul and only the cross can break its power. The real thing on the other hand is wonderful and full of revelation of God and Christ. I believe that Brother Lawrence is expressing the real thing. I have no idea about Tozer.

sermonindex said: "True saints have been and still are in what we deem today as the Catholic Church." Am I misunderstanding you, or are you advocating catholicism?

Brother, I was not promoting Catholicism in anyway but simply stating that as evangelicals we need to learn balance on not throwing out all of church history as Catholic. Most evangelicals do not read early christian leader writings because they think its the Catholic church and that is false. So I was just trying to encourage us not to just throw out the baby with the bathwater.

The 1600's reformation was not perfect by any means and we still have much to learn of true Church history and the ways of God.

Okay amrkelly, here is the direct quote from colin speaking for some reason in the third person..........

"murrcolr calls that "The Kundalini awakening” and that's why he rejects the book."

The book in question is Pursuit of God. Colin claims he rejects this book because it teaches the demonic.

You write.......

" words carry real meaning apart from what an individual intends by them or even understands them to mean. Satan makes use of the real meanings of words which are implicit in the very way the brain itself processes speech."

I agree. The quote from Colin is real words with real meaning and leaves no doubt as to what Colin means. I reject what Colin says about Tozer as a false accusation. And I call upon the brother to repent of that. I shall say no more about it and leave it between the brother and God. The false accusation was made publicly therefore it was rebuked publicly..........bro Frank

sermonindex wrote: Brother, I was not promoting Catholicism in anyway but simply stating that as evangelicals we need to learn balance on not throwing out all of church history as Catholic. Most evangelicals do not read early christian leader writings because they think its the Catholic church and that is false. So I was just trying to encourage us not to just throw out the baby with the bathwater.

The 1600's reformation was not perfect by any means and we still have much to learn of true Church history and the ways of God.

I agree with Greg 100% here. I read this quote recently, which sums it up nicely:

In the course of their efforts to rid the church of what they saw as the great clerical cheat, perpetuated by late medieval Catholicism, Protestants had destroyed the institutions which had cherished contemplation and they had no idea how to replace them.

Silence: A Christian History by Diarmaid MacCullock.

There is no denying the corruption and errors of the RCC, but in amongst it all, there have been true believers of great spiritual wisdom, including *some* of the church fathers.This matches the fact that amidst the corruption and errors in Protestantism, there have been those of great spiritual wisdom, but to a much lesser extent I have found.

These believers experienced and taught infused contemplation which is not navel gazing, but the imparted righteousness of God or in other words, holiness. Sadly they are not producing writings today.

But apart from these people, there is no man who is unable to contribute some words of wisdom, including the person quoted who is a self confessed homosexual liberal Christian, and we are most foolish to discount anyone, as Tozer has been done, as being beyond the pale insofar as having something to teach us, and all we need is discernment to benefit. It has been an eye opener for me to read church history from a Catholic perspective and I recommend it.

For spirituality, I have not found anything in the Protestant church which comes near to the deep spirituality found during the 'Golden Years' of Spanish mysticism of the 15th C, which is when John of the Cross and Theresa of Avilla lived, although I confess I have not studied early church history in depth.

They used for their inspiration apart from their own experiences of 'the presence of God' a Francisco de Osuna who wrote 'The Third Spiritual Alphabet' which I am reading and which is a veritable storehouse of spiritual wisdom.

For example, he says that we must use the storehouse we have in our memory to aid us daily in our spiritual health, by recalling to mind the time when we first came to know the Lord, and the joy we felt at that time (Remember the day when you left Egypt and the house of slavery. Ex. 13.1)

What I have witnessed amongst Catholics in general, is a respect for humans which seems to be sadly missing amongst Protestants. I have recently become aquainted with a group called lay Carmelites (non charismatic) who are devoted to the writings of John of the Cross, and have been deeply impressed by their love for others, their openness and honesty. I did not think for once that they were not true believers as they love the Lord and depend on Christ for their salvation not works. They also dislike a lot about their church and their pope.

Have you found this Secret way, does it come through quiet meditation, until it forms a habit of inwardly gazing upon God. Have you been ushered onto a new level of spiritual life, have you found yourself out of adjustment to the ways of the world, with an awareness of nothingness as you went through interior purification? But then a new power arose in you with its upsurgings and outgoings as you connected to the divine essence the light that lives within all men?

Colin, traditional mysticism does not teach that we achieve union through inwardly gazing upon God. It is about creating a space for him to act: placing out attention on heavenly things and not earthly. It is about turning from the ways of the world, to help us to empty ourselves so that God can fill us. Preparation but definitely not emptying the mind - that is dangerous..it is an emptying of our self efforts.

It is not necessary to cloister ourselves to enable this, even in the midst of chaos and noise we can set our minds apart to show Him that we are serious about getting closer to Him just as we would with another human.

What the eastern religions say is the kundelini spirit is just a fake of the real thing. They become filled with another spirit. Satan has twisted the truth to sound like the real thing, that is, Christian mysticism, to create bondage for those who have that longing for God within, and for holiness. You can be sure that where the truth is, there is counterfeit.

The big difference is that there is no talk of holiness with the fake.

The pathway to becoming Holy, following the principles of the purgative, illuminative, and unitive ways?

Yes this is the framework of the process. We are granted repentance, followed by revelation and then oneness with God. We are granted a taste of it when we first come to Him but as we go on, we see that the same method is used overall in the longer process of sanctification.

The divine light does not live in all men, only those who have been baptised in the Spirit.

The seriousness of saying that the mind is the instrument by which a man "gazes" on Christ is to miss the reality that the Holy Spirit does not dwell in the mind. Paul speaks of being renewed in our thinking, but he also speaks of being renewed in the spirit of the mind. Paul also tells us that we have the mind of Christ. It is clear that unless God Himself brings about this deeper and fully intimate experience of Christ within, we are at risk of inducing a counterfeit effect and therein lays the opportunity for demonic spirits who operate in and through the natural mind.

I agree with this. First of all we are to have the Holy Spirit joined to our spirits. It is through our spirit that we know truth and indeed if we do not have Him dwelling within, we are open to demonic spirits to take up their dwelling in us instead.

We are however, to discipline our minds and it is up to us what we choose to dwell upon, whether it is the things in life which occupy and distract us, or the things of God. 'Seek ye first the 'kingdom'.

Colin wrote: So why is it said in the Pursuit of God?
Pursuit of God Chapter 7: Many have found the secret of which I speak and, without giving much thought to what is going on within them, constantly practice this habit of inwardly gazing upon God

Tozer says earlier:

Now, if faith is the gaze of the heart at God, and if this gaze is but the raising of the inward eyes
to meet the all-seeing eyes of God, then it follows that it is one of the easiest things possible to do. It
would be like God to make the most vital thing easy and place it within the range of possibility for
the weakest and poorest of us.

I think that he is talking about the gaze of the heart here. I think that means keeping one's affection on the Lord. Tozer, I believe, had read the Christian mystics like me, but I think he might have been clearer on some points. I certainly don't see the counterfeit mysticism in his writings that we are to stop using our minds. But also I don't think that he was speaking from his own experience of contemplation or ES if you like, he seems to be repeating what he read. I may be wrong but I don't think that he was renowned for teaching ES.

Nonsense ”“ Every religion in this world seeks holiness through ritual practices, just look at the RCC, or the Dali Lama (named His Holiness), in Hinduism they even have Holy cows.

Yes but they were not talking about biblical holiness ie a pure heart. Theirs was all about behaviour and the mind.

The thought that jumps to mind is Nirvana meaning: to extinguish, to obliterate oneself, which is said to be more like a state of existence called enlightenment.

Yes that is why it is wrong, to have self destroyed but this is not what is called Illumination. Illumination is when we have the light of God within us.

So you have turned away from the teaching of the society of friends that would say "there is a measure of Christ is in every man”

I never accepted that part of their teaching in the way most of todays Quakers understand. I think that what is in all men is a gap - a longing for God rather than something positive.

Colin, it is good that you are being cautious. When one is seeking ES it pays to be cautious as there are a lot of pitfalls. But as I said, there is the truth mixed in with the error. Tozer is not a holiness teacher but he is a good teacher for those who are not yet on that path to encourage them to seek.

I agree with this. First of all we are to have the Holy Spirit joined to our spirits. It is through our spirit that we know truth and indeed if we do not have Him dwelling within, we are open to demonic spirits to take up their dwelling in us instead. Krautfrau

Brenda precisely how do we "have the Holy Spirit joined to our spirits?" Do we have a say in this process? If not then it scarcely matters to say it. Being born again is an activity of God and not an activity of men. I cannot imagine that the Holy Spirit needs instruction nor less that we need to disseminate the meaning of being born from on high as though to do so would find fault with its benefit. Of course if what we are about is another thing entirely we may find that others will be less than influenced by our flattery and more concerned with our ambitions.

Oracio writes........

"Brother Greg, sincerely I ask, do you mean to say that the charismatic catholic movement is a legitimate movement within Christianity? For example, if there were such a group nearby would you be willing to fellowship with them as brothers and sisters without warning them to come out of the RCC? From what I understand the charismatic catholic movement still holds firmly to all the teachings of the official RCC Catechism. As such I would not deem that movement to be truly Christian in any sense."

Amen Oracio, I would concur. In it's simplest of terms, Jesus tells us we cannot serve two masters we will love the one and hate the other, or a better translation, prefer the other. This has been my experience with Catholic Charsimatics. Speak a single word against the doctrines of the Catholic Church and you will be dis-felowshipped. You see, Catholic doctrine is not optional for a Catholic. The Pope, in their minds, is infallible in matters of faith and morals. He is the ultimate authority on earth, he is Christ on earth. We were warned that Satan can appear as an angel of light and if anyone comes with a different doctrine from that which we have been taught through the Sciptures, they are to be rejected. Catholicism is so far removed from Biblical doctrine it would be hard to know where to begin. .............bro Frank

Surly in all this talk about Roman Catholicism we are missing a simple reality.

It is the easiest thing to condemn that which is self evidently wrong. Even a little child can do that. But the little child also knows that in people can be found both good and evil. The good the child clings to, and the evil the child shrinks back from. If a child can manage it how come such wise men as we are cannot?

I just love the way we play with words to avoid saying what we must say if our inferences are to be taken seriously. Go on someone have the courage to say it if you can.

Rome has no true believers. It's impossible because Rome is of the devil. There you go ye wise men. Now go and say it from the roof top and from St Peter's Square and from your neighbours house. If any man comes to you and says "I believe in Jesus" you can in your great wisdom declare to the heavens and all the earth "NO YOU DO NOT" because you are a Roman Catholic and we all know that Roman Catholics are of the DEVIL.

You mad men!

by amrkelly on 2014/7/19 6:58:19: Brenda precisely how do we "have the Holy Spirit joined to our spirits?

Being born again is an activity of God, when man consents to His working and comes to Him in repentance is my understanding.

more concerned with our ambitions.

Sorry??

There is a show on the Catholic cable channel EWTN called The Road Home. It is a show that gives testimony to those evangelicals who have converted to Ronan Catholicism.

Invariably a common denominator rises from the testimony of these evangelicals who came into the RCC. They say they read the writings of those called `the church fathers`.

Just as those who are converted out of Islam decry and warn of the foolishness of mixing faith in Christ with Islam called Chrislam. We need to heed Mary Jane and Frank who were converted out of Catholicism, their warning of mixing faith in Christ with the teachings of Rome.

Again we might do well to read Foxes Book of Martyrs and Martyrs Mirror to be reminded that the RCC put many of our brothers and sisters to death.

Another aspect of the RCC are the crusades. Many Moslems to this day remember it was Rome who called a Christian Jihad against Moslems and Jews. And the writings of the church fathers, particularly Agustine, gave rise to concept of just war. This is why it is difficult to evangelize Moslems and even Jews to this day.

My thoughts.

Blaine

by MaryJane on 2014/7/19 8:56:37: I am finding more and more evangelicals who are now saying they do believe there is common ground among RCC and that fellowship with them is not an issue. This is a dangerous area to be entering into. Once we try to find common ground, compromise usually follows. There is as Frank said so much about the Catholic teachings and traditions that are not BIBLICAL...We need to be in prayer for those lost in the teaching of the RCC.

I believe that it was inevitable. As we could not reconcile on doctrine, we are now going for joint experience and charismania was the start of it. Now it is becoming false mysticism that is doing the job. The RCC is looking at Buddhism now and accepting it.

The problem is that Protestantism is plain wrong as well and does not offer anything for the true believers in the RCC. Where can they go when they see that they have to deal with ungraceful Protestants who tear each other up over doctrine? The answer is that all institutionalised religion is false and corrupt and only a remnant know the true faith in union with Christ.

He can deal with bad doctrine in a man. But when the man is without any love and has a hardened heart, so often seen today, there is not much He can do but allow that heart to grow colder.

by murrcolr on 2014/7/19 8:09:33: And he is all for simplicity: If we would have religion lapped and folden in one word, for that thou shouldst have better hold thereupon, take thee but a little word of one syllable: for so it is better than of two, for even the shorter it is the better it accordeth with the work of the Spirit. And such a word is this word God or this word love.

I have not read that book and agree that what he says is eastern religion. Not all mysticism is Christian.

There is a show on the Catholic cable channel EWTN called The Road Home. It is a show that gives testimony to those evangelicals who have converted to Ronan Catholicism.

Invariably a common denominator rises from the testimony of these evangelicals who came into the RCC. They say they read the writings of those called `the church fathers`.

Just as those who are converted out of Islam decry and warn of the foolishness of mixing Christianity with Islam called Chrislam. We need to heed Mary Jane and Frank who were converted out of Catholicism, their warning of mixing faith in Christ with the teachings of Rome.

Again we might do well to read Foxes Book if Martyrs and Martyrs Mirror to be reminded that the RCC put many of our brothers and sisters to death.

It is all old hat Blaine. Unless we are prepared to say that there are no true believers in the nearly one billion RCC men and women we may as well pack up our bags and go home. We are simply repeating meaningless rhetoric and if I may say, somewhat less effectually than our forefathers did.

If there is even one single man or woman who belongs to an RC Church who is a true believer in the death and resurrection of Christ, then we have a series problem, do we not? So I ask again who is prepared and willing to say that there is not one single instance of a man or woman finding Christ and being born again in the RCC? If there is just one then by what power have they believed?

Some of us live in the past with such a commitment we cannot even comprehend the day we live in. Despising falsehood and error has nothing to do with knowing who is born again, nor has recognising a brother or sister in Christ got anything to do with embracing a false teaching. It is divisive and hateful and it is the root of much misery and anger. Show me a Roman Catholic who advocates murdering protestants today. Or a Priest who believes that it is his duty to hate all others who do not embrace his traditions. When the Lord moves to deliver Rome of those who have a heart for Him it will be because destruction is coming upon her, not because there are no true believers in Rome.

by bearmaster on 2014/7/19 9:59:21: Again we might do well to read Foxes Book of Martyrs and Martyrs Mirror to be reminded that the RCC put many of our brothers and sisters to death.

And we might do well to read about what Protestants did to each other in Geneva. There are no clean hands here.

Dear Brenda I am very aware of what the Protestant Reformers did to the Anabaptists. In some cases the Protestant and Catholic armies joined together to put the Anabaptists to death. Mainly because the Anabaptists were trying to live out the true reality of Christ during the Reformation.

As I think upon this dark time in church history it seems that the Protestant Reformers were more in agreement with the Catholics. Both groups held to church and state as one. Both groups believed that one could be born into the church giving rise to infant baptism. Both groups believed in the death penalty for heretics. Both groups believed in the concept of just war. And there are, no doubt, more areas of agreement.

One thing the Protestants and Catholics did agree on. The authority of the church fathers. So I would ask what are the differences between the Catholics and the Protestants. In my estimation they were one in heart. This is why I believe the Anabaptist were the true remnant church during the time of the Reformation. I say this because of their emphasis on a simple New Testament faith in Jesus Christ. And for that they were persecuted and martyred.

My thoughts.

Blaine

Andrew writes.........

"If there is even one single man or woman who belongs to an RC Church who is a true believer in the death and resurrection of Christ, then we have a series problem, do we not? "

Of course we do not. It's a false premise. You could make that argument about Mormonism or Jehovah's witness's or Phelps church in Kansas or the Ayrian brotherhood. It's not we that have the problem, it's the genuine believer who is in Catholicism that has a problem. If anyone ever finds out that they do not believe in transubstansiation, then they will be invited to leave, or any one of the countless heretical teachings of the Catholic Church.

There is a coming great whore church which all the world will be defiled by. We see the Catholic church positioning itself to be the leader of such a universal church which will encompass Islam and Judaism and all the religions of the world. We also see a grand delusion coming over those who should know better and a growing resentment of anyone who speaks the truth about the Catholic church.............bro Frank

by appolus on 2014/7/19 10:56:57: If anyone ever finds out that they do not believe in transubstansiation, then they will be invited to leave, or any one of the countless heretical teachings of the Catholic Church.

No that is not true. You do not have to believe anything to attend services or join in with fellowshipping. They are most welcoming.

What they will say regarding not accepting Transubstantiation, or that you are not officially a Catholic is that you can go to the altar and cross your hands over your chest to refuse the wafer and wine, and get a blessing from the priest instead.

They are remarkably inclusive these days but of course to be a practising member you have to accept the party line. But there is leeway with a bit of it.

"If there is even one single man or woman who belongs to an RC Church who is a true believer in the death and resurrection of Christ, then we have a series problem, do we not? "

Of course we do not. It's a false premise. You could make that argument about Mormonism or Jehovah's witness's or Phelps church in Kansas or the Ayrian brotherhood. It's not we that have the problem, it's the genuine believer who is in Catholicism that has a problem. If anyone ever finds out that they do not believe in transubstantiation, then they will be invited to leave, or any one of the countless heretical teachings of the Catholic Church.

I have to say Frank that I am genuinely surprised by this reply of yours, especially the point about Mormonism and the other cults you have mentioned.

Brother Frank in view of your reply I am not going to respond anymore. I have to tell you Frank that if you genuinely believe that there is any correspondence between Mormonism. JW's etc and the Roman Church you have made a grave error in your thinking. Perhaps we could put it down to your seeking to make a different point than the words of themselves express. And that Brother Frank is what I extended to Colin. He too was making a different point to the one his words of themselves expressed. Though you thought to instruct me on the matter.

Your comment is to bring Christ himself into the realm of an angel and to make the gospel meaningless and false.

In Islam, Al'Masih Isa is Jesus. In Mormonism Jesus is a son of God, in the JW cult, Jesus is Michael the archangel. If you were to ask me therefore whether their were any born again believers in these three cults I would have a responsibility to say that they are all completely false because they have another Christ and not the Son of God at all therefore there can be none of His in their ranks. The very same thing could be said for the Mashiach of present day orthodox Jews. They too have in mind a different Christ, at the heart of which lies not only an inevitable rejection of true Christ, but the acceptance of another christ who does not conform to the true revelation of God in the Law, the Prophets and in finality of the testimony of Christ Himself.

Rome on the other hand is fully and properly comprehending of true Christ.

If you cannot make this distinction and understand its effect then you have no place teaching others anything about that which ails the Roman Church. You ought to especially draw back from bearing witness of the Christ you do know to those who have as much likelihood of putting their faith in Him as you have yourself. This is of course speaking about those who are of Rome. We ought not to make the mistake of failing to separate truth from error and then the gospel from another gospel. The Gospel is one thing and Christ Himself is a greater than the gospel. The gospel speaks of Christ crucified for sin as the Son of Man and Christ Himself speaks of He who was with the Father from the beginning, even the Son of God.

Mormons speak of Jesus Christ whom they call the son of God. Yet their christ is a son of God and not the Son of God. Muslims are fervent about Al'Masih Isa and know that this name, Christ Jesus, appears more times in the Qur'an than does the name of Mohammed himself. Yet this Al'Masih Isa is a prophet and is expressly denied to be the Son of God.

You may well believe that I am making a fine point because you may believe that if Rome makes ruin of the true doctrine of grace then what grace is their to be saved. Salvation does not rest on whether other men extend a true and proper comprehension of the grace of God. In finality it is the grace of God in Christ Jesus, the Son of God by whom grace first appeared to men by which men are saved, Faith through grace in Christ Jesus the Son of God.

I would invite you not to respond to this post Frank nor anyone else until you have tested what I am saying here and can be certain that pressing another point other than the one which alone leads to eternal life, is in fact a true thing to do. If we ourselves seek to lay any other foundation than Christ Jesus crucified for sin we have made ruin of the true Gospel. But if we do not comprehend that Christ is the Son of the Living God, we have no basis for a gospel at all. Rome by a reality of centuries has in its folds a true and proper understanding of the person of Jesus Christ. It is an understanding of Christ which all born again believers have by reason of the gift of the Holy Spirit, and it is the power to confirm that Jesus is both Christ and Lord, in their own consciousness.

Mormons, JW's Muslims and many others speak the same name and speak the same words in many instances as do true believers. Yet they are not true believers and of them we can say there is not amongst them one who truly comprehends Christ as He is, the Son of the Living God.

"Who do men say that I Am?"

Who do you say that I Am"

"Though art the Christ, the Son of the Living God".

That is what separates truth from error and all the rest is a matter of separating from error itself, but to separate from error without knowing who Christ truly is, is a fools gospel and a man made religion. For this reason I neither say that there are none in Rome who truly believe, for this would be to lie against the truth, nor do I say come out of her and be ye separate, except that I have first comprehended Christ Himself in my brother or Sister. Then I will say come out because a day of judgement is coming and you ought not to be a part of her sins and her abominations lest you also receive of her suffering as well.

Men can blaspheme the Son of God and they can even blaspheme the Father in heaven and there is sufficient grace. That sufficiency is better laid hold of in a laying hold of true Christ otherwise we have not laid hold of grace at all.

I take it Frank that I am of those who should know better! Brother I do know better and therefore I am not afraid to say it even though it brings me into the scope of my friends comments. Greg has been held up in this thread and another for the same reason. The Lord knows.

Andrew writes.......

"Your comment is to bring Christ himself into the realm of an angel and to make the gospel meaningless and false."

And again...........

"Rome on the other hand is fully and properly comprehending of true Christ." And...........

"Brother Frank in view of your reply I am not going to respond anymore."

After making the statement that the Church of Rome full and properly comprehends the true Jesus I am glad you are not going to respond any more brother. I will leave your above statements to the discernment of those on the forum............bro Frank

Andrew writes.......

"Your comment is to bring Christ himself into the realm of an angel and to make the gospel meaningless and false."

And again...........

"Rome on the other hand is fully and properly comprehending of true Christ." And...........

"Brother Frank in view of your reply I am not going to respond anymore."

After making the statement that the Church of Rome full and properly comprehends the true Jesus I am glad you are not going to respond any more brother. I will leave your above statements to the discernment of those on the forum............bro Frank

Shame on you for your spiritual arrogance! You have no authority to remove my statements Frank so what do your words mean? They mean nothing Frank and that is a fact. Moreover I put them there by my own hand and so they are visible by my own hand.

So by my own hand Frank here is what I actually said:

"If we ourselves seek to lay any other foundation than Christ Jesus crucified for sin we have made ruin of the true Gospel. But if we do not comprehend that Christ is the Son of the Living God, we have no basis for a gospel at all. Rome by a reality of centuries has in its folds a true and proper understanding of the person of Jesus Christ."

I said nothing about Rome understanding the "true Jesus". That kind of statement is new age speak. It is a deliberate distortion of words which you do often and then hide behind a cloak of righteousness. I rebuke you in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ for your hypocrisy.

I have now had the chance of reading through these writings (though remember doing so quite a few years ago) and feel that Brother Lawrence and what he said is being grossly misunderstood.

His thoughts were, I feel, put together for a specific audience, and not for your average believer. I was struck by reading that he suffered from sciatica. Now, I have never suffered from this myself, thankfully, though have known periods of excruciating pain, during which times I have had to wonder how it is possible to be in such a degree of pain, yet continue to survive, as I am unable to relieve the many symptoms I have with medications due to extreme sensitivity to most everything in life, and that includes a whole pile of foodstuff. I have heard sciatica is very painful indeed, and he lived during a time when I guess people just had to put up with things too.

But it is chronic pain that gets to you (and I have that too). Year in and year out. It eventually gets to you and it numbs the brain and you just lose the will to live. I just wonder how bad it was for Brother Lawrence and feel an affinity with him, although I don't have to live in an unheated monastery which would increase the pain greatly, whilst suffering the ill health that would arise in someone incapable to taking daily exercise, having to limp around instead. On top of it all, he would be expected to keep up with his own duties and accept his trials cheerfully.

So I wonder just how those of us who stand in judgement of him would have coped with his life. By all accounts he was indeed cheerful and joyful and peaceful, hence the production of the book to record his thoughts.

'So what is your secret Brother?' he no doubt will have been asked countless times. His answer is an inspiration to those who must go through extreme levels of suffering, which invariably lead one to start to question God. It is all very well to understand that God is with us in accordance with the scriptures, but there comes a time, after year after year of it, when things get past our coping abilities, when we have to ask 'why?'.

Those who have lived lives of relative ease, having health and fitness (though of course none of us escape a few problems) and financial ease, and probable support in this 'normal world' really have no idea what many go though who are given a different tune to march to, as far as undeserved suffering goes.

In these cases, when the tire meets the tarmac, one has to find a higher way of overcoming the temptations one is constantly pounded with, to avoid the thoughts that God has indeed deserted us and does not care enough to relieve our pain and suffering. Many in these extreme circumstances, after great trials of feeling alone and empty, turn to people like Brother Lawrence who did find the means to deal with it and to become over-comers, and find peace in the midst of fire.

His answer was, that when we feel that God is not there, and the heavens feel as brass, we have to act as though we can feel He is there and close to us. 'Practice the presence' in other words. Ignore what is going on around us, and look for Him in the smallest things of everyday life, and look upon our tedious duties that perhaps increase our daily sufferings, as works in His service and learn to thank Him for these mundane works until joy is found in them and pleasure in the smallest things imaginable in life, when life closes in on one and becomes like a prison cell.

Those who suffer in this way, invariably have to put up also, like Job, with the lack of empathy from those who have an easier pathway, and who chant the usual scriptures, not understanding that there is a trial we sometimes are required to go through, a crucible and a wine-press, whereby we are forced to enter another level of being, chosen for a few, where they do learn to have peace and joy in the midst of God removing His presence, which is the worst trial of all, but the process of doing so can take years of being in darkness and despair, increased in intensity by the lack of understanding and fellowship by the main body of the church who judge us as being at fault. I am sure that Bro Lawrence went through this.

Eventually many find solace in the writings of others who have been in the wine-press and found the answer in the writings of what are known as mystics which is an unfortunate word, having been contaminated as are other such 'good' words, but have now acquired a negative meaning. Such as these have been forced by circumstances to turn their eyes away from the world, and develop the 'interior' life which basically just means that they learn to see things though spiritual eyes, and see God in everything in their lives until He become their all in all and they have His voice and comfort with them wherever they go. This is it really - the real mysticism. Blessed are the pure in heart for they shall see God.

Andrew

I wonder why it is that you feel that you have the role of correcting your brethren on this forum, going into great detail of where they are wrong, yet if the table is turned and someone pulls you up instead, they feel the lash of your tongue followed by often sinister barely concealed threats? You should be prepared to accept what you hand out.

I wonder why it is that you feel that you have the role of correcting your brethren on this forum, going into great detail of where they are wrong, yet if the table is turned and someone pulls you up instead, they feel the lash of your tongue followed by often sinister barely concealed threats? You should be prepared to accept what you hand out.

That is an easy question to answer Brenda. It has been given to me to do it. If I go into great detail as you have said I do and another makes a single one line constructed reply then the answer as to whether that amounts to a reasonable way to conduct oneself lays in the detail and the lack thereof.

I take it that people can read what is written.

Frank presents himself in the prophetic voice almost all of the time. Yet when he is asked if he is a prophet he declines to formally answer it. His answers are convoluted and resist proper meaning. In fact anyone who comes presenting in the prophetic voice needs to be tested and challenged. The worse that can happen is that you will discover a false prophet and not a real one. I am not saying that Frank is a false anything, least of all a false prophet. We had this discussion more than a year ago and I acknowledged then that he had never said anything which directly constituted a claim to prophetic ministry and calling. Yet following on from that acknowledgement I have seen time and again that Frank uses prophetic language to express end time events in which he posts that Rome has a full and leading role. None of which requires a prophetic anything. You only have to read one of many thousands of books to say it.

Frank consistently fails to understand and draw a proper distinction between men and women and a religious system. As it is compassion which the Lord seeks to extend to His people, this is a massive mistake and a certain evidence of not having a real understanding of either Rome or its men and women.

There are others, Blaine for instance, who call upon Frank and Mary Jane to bear witness of their coming out of Rome to counter Greg's attempts to show a balance when we speak of Rome, especially in its historical meaning. I have a ministry to Rome, and that is especially to the darkest meaning of it, and if I were to speak of what the Lord has shown me it would result in more hearty amens from the like of those brethren who appear to endlessly put Rome down, by which they mistakenly put down its people as well. Whereas I will not put Rome down as they do.

Further, in that effort the same as these may easily cause offence to men and women of Rome, fail to truly discern who is saved and who is lost, they repeat age old statements which have no more meaning in this age in which we live and thus they are about a dead work.

As to why I correct you Brenda specifically well you know why so how does asking it have any other purpose that to provoke me into some foolish action of words?

If you want me off the forum ask Greg to remove me Brenda, as can Frank or anyone else. But as long as I am here I will post according to what my conscience tells me. When I make a fool of myself, as at times I do, I know before anyone else knows it and I do not remove the foolish comments to preserve myself.

So Brenda there we have it then. I have said it before Brenda and I say it again. If anyone believes that I need correction they are free in the Lord to correct me. But let it be a correction and not a snare of hypocrisy.

Is God a liar, will he break his promise.

Colin, Of course not, but there is a trial which we find depicted in the book of Job, when God SEEMS to have deserted us, and Him hiding His face has nothing to do with any sin we have committed. We see it too when Jesus hung on the cross and cried out 'My God, my God why?'

We know that He will never leave us or desert us, mentally that is, but there is a time where it feels like He has become our enemy and does nothing to help us when we are in dire need - and it can go on for years.

It is actually a blessing, to be chosen for this pathway, but in the midst of the suffering, before one is given light on the reason and purpose of it, the depths of despair are reached, because we are desperate to find Him and we have a humble and repentant heart, yet still He is not to be found. Of course this trial is for those who have known Him intimately, not for the 'far off' ones.

Yep okay it is the dark night and made even darker when we are scorned whilst in it. But even that is to our blessing when we emerge, in the light with full glory. Allelulia!

These are two different types of trial. One is, as you say, when we are refusing to allow God to have His way with us, but the other is not the same.

In the first, all one has to do is repent, and go back to Nineva as it were. The other one cannot be ended like that and has to be endured until God chooses to appear in the whirlwind.

I have experienced the first, when I was rebellious regarding the conditions that God was providing in my life. I looked around and God was blessing others yet I knew that they were much less obedient than I was. I had believed that if we commit ourselves to serving Him, then our needs would be provided for, and I am not talking about wants here, I mean needs like being able to afford new shoes instead of having to wear ones that did not actually fit properly. That sort of thing.

It took a crisis for me to submit and say 'thy will not mine' in all things.

The other trial is not spoken of much as it does not seem to match with scriptures as you have pointed out. But reading Job we can see that he was actually righteous from the start and only sank into despair when God's presence left and not when his worldly gifts were removed. This trail is not about sin but it is to refine a man until he comes out as gold.

You speak of Peter and indeed Satan had him but he had sinned at the start so I think that the trial there was the first one and not the second.

Mystics write about the second type.

Brother Andrew writes, and then denies writing,

"Rome on the other hand is fully and properly comprehending of true Christ."

This is an exact quote, one may simply scroll back one page and read for themselves. Just not sure where you are coming from brother denying you said this, very strange. Anyway it is, as I stated, not true. Very few, if any on this forum would agree with your statement " Rome on the other hand is fully and properly comprehending of true Christ." ..........bro Frank

"If you want me off the forum ask Greg to remove me Brenda, as can Frank or anyone else. But as long as I am here I will post according to what my conscience tells me. When I make a fool of myself, as at times I do, I know before anyone else knows it and I do not remove the foolish comments to preserve myself. "

These words are a softening from a man who may sense he had stepped over the mark. I pray that is the case amrkelly and you are willing to take the low road and humble yourself but if not I would urge you to tone down the drama and calm down. If I was in a public place gathered with other Christians and there was a disagreement and one person stood up saying "I rebuke you in the name of The Lord Jesus Christ " I would say the same thing I am saying above..."thats enough - calm down please". If it happened in my private home I would ask the person leave and go home and collect himself. This kind of behavior and rebuking of another in such a high minded manner, is completely uncalled for and reeks of spiritual arrogance.

While I am not calling for your removal, I will say to you amrkelly that you should consider removing yourself for a season and take care of your own heart. I rarely if ever hear an encouraging or edifying word from you these days. You may dismiss that and say your "calling" is prophetic...but to that I would say:
"Let your speech always be with grace, as though seasoned with salt, so that you will know how you should respond to each person."

I along with Paul through the scriptures, I appeal to you and others here who have progressed beyond an edifying discussion to now fighting over Brother Lawrence or Tozer or the RCC..."Let all bitterness and wrath and anger and clamor and slander be put away from you, along with all malice. Be kind to one another, tender-hearted, forgiving each other, just as God in Christ also has forgiven you."

"Rome on the other hand is fully and properly comprehending of true Christ."

This is an exact quote, one may simply scroll back one page and read for themselves. Just not sure where you are coming from brother denying you said this, very strange. Anyway it is, as I stated, not true. Very few, if any on this forum would agree with your statement " Rome on the other hand is fully and properly comprehending of true Christ." ..........bro Frank

It is like breaking rock communicating sometimes.

Frank I know what I said brother because I wrote it. So why do you keep missing your own words. If this were not important it would be a pointless exercise.

Frank your own words in claiming to quote me were:

After making the statement that the Church of Rome full and properly comprehends the true Jesus I am glad you are not going to respond any more brother. I will leave your above statements to the discernment of those on the forum............bro Frank

That isn't what I said Frank and it is in fact a complete misdirection of what I said. Whether you realise it or not your use of the words "Rome full and properly comprehends the true Jesus" is a new age saying. True Jesus is who precisely Frank? There have been many men called Jesus and the man who was released from his murder charge in favour of the death of Christ was called Jesus.

I know that you hate these instances of mine but in misquoting me Frank you have shown that you have not understood what I said in context of saying "Rome on the other hand is fully and properly comprehending of true Christ' as well as "Rome by a reality of centuries has in its folds a true and proper understanding of the person of Jesus Christ." What is difficult about you either acknowledging, or else if not, at least understanding that in the context of Islam, Mormonism and the JW cult, Rome alone knows what the meaning of the name of Christ Jesus really is. I am not speaking about a language class, I am speaking about knowing and understand by faith that Jesus the Messiah (Mashiach) or else Christ (ho Christos) is the Son of God.

You don't have to agree with me but to wilfully refuse to see something so simple is a falsehood, and it is borne out of a desire to deny Rome at all costs and in all circumstances no matter what the consequence may be.

Frank I haven't written these things without proper qualified context. Blaine resisted and questioned Greg openly and then invited you and Mary Jane to back him up with your testimony to the truth of his claims. Greg pressed a simple point which had to do with trying to understand that the Catholic Church was in the first instance, a reference to the world wide church, what we might today call the true Church. It took more than four centuries for the Roman Catholic Church to appear and even then it took nearly 800 years to come to its most blasphemous condition. Many of the doctrines which are hated did not arise until the middle ages.

You cannot but see the rationale of these sayings but you insist on speaking against them or else ignoring them. As for my own posts I have really only made one simple point and that is this one in response to the misleading claim that Rome is the same as Mormonism and the JW cult which you made to rebut me saying:

"If there is even one single man or woman who belongs to an RC Church who is a true believer in the death and resurrection of Christ, then we have a series problem, do we not? "

To which you replied:

"Of course we do not. It's a false premise. You could make that argument about Mormonism or Jehovah's witness's or Phelps church in Kansas or the Ayrian brotherhood."

I disregarded the comment about the Phelps congregation and the Arian Brotherhood because they are so hateful that it seems to matter little what they believe. On the other hand the Mormons and the JW Cult are made up of overwhelmingly decent men and women who hold to conservative values. Thus in their case the name of Christ carries some weight to others. I was showing you Frank that the christ they name is not Christ at all, whereas Roman Catholics, who are also often decent and respectable people, who value and embrace conservative values, actually do know who Christ really is.

You missed it all Frank because you are too busy peddling a historical message which carries no meaning anymore.

You are free to say what you please, but I am free to say that it is wrong. So I write to try and show that one can find a proper balance in these things, or at least see that the RCC, despite all of its errors and blasphemies still holds a core and central understanding of who Christ really is in keeping with the Law, the Prophets and Christ Himself.

It's not difficult Frank. So why make it so difficult?

These words are a softening from a man who may sense he had stepped over the mark. I pray that is the case amrkelly and you are willing to take the low road and humble yourself but if not I would urge you to tone down the drama and calm down.

My advise would be to call for my removal and spare me the patronising comments.

You have no idea what I am doing or why.

This will be the last time I respond to you borther Andrew on this point as we are now in the realm of the bizarre. Here below is a copy and past of what you said, with the previous paragraph and the following paragraph, then I will take the advice of brother Awakened with the words of Paul West from a long time ago " play the ball and not the man." I love you brother and my prayers are with you. Here is what you wrote after being offended by my putting the Catholic Church in the same category as Mormons and Jehovah's Witnesses who do not have a proper view of who Jesus is, the beginning of all cults...........

"In Islam, Al'Masih Isa is Jesus. In Mormonism Jesus is a son of God, in the JW cult, Jesus is Michael the archangel. If you were to ask me therefore whether their were any born again believers in these three cults I would have a responsibility to say that they are all completely false because they have another Christ and not the Son of God at all therefore there can be none of His in their ranks. The very same thing could be said for the Mashiach of present day orthodox Jews. They too have in mind a different Christ, at the heart of which lies not only an inevitable rejection of true Christ, but the acceptance of another christ who does not conform to the true revelation of God in the Law, the Prophets and in finality of the testimony of Christ Himself.

Rome on the other hand is fully and properly comprehending of true Christ.

If you cannot make this distinction and understand its effect then you have no place teaching others anything about that which ails the Roman Church. You ought to especially draw back from bearing witness of the Christ you do know to those who have as much likelihood of putting their faith in Him as you have yourself. This is of course speaking about those who are of Rome. We ought not to make the mistake of failing to separate truth from error and then the gospel from another gospel. The Gospel is one thing and Christ Himself is a greater than the gospel. The gospel speaks of Christ crucified for sin as the Son of Man and Christ Himself speaks of He who was with the Father from the beginning, even the Son of God."

What offends me Frank is wilful and deliberate ignorance and a false self righteous rhetoric. I am the only person on this forum with the courage to say it knowing that it means the inevitable queue of self righteous hagglers.

There is nothing bizarre about it at all. It's really very simple. I would rather be rejected completely than have to do with such self righteous and ill informed men as I see in this place and I really do not care in the least part what you think of me or whether you love me or not. Save you insincere garbage for someone else Frank. It is wasted on me.

Is this really the heart JESUS would have for us to speaking with one another. I understand the topic is a difficult one and there are differing points of view but surely we can speak to one another in love and not resort to this kind of speech.

MaryJane, thank you for your concerns but there is really no answer to your question and I accept that things will be as they will be. I intended to say what I said and I remain in that mind. I am not one for turning back and feigning a religious rhetoric simply to appease the wilful foolishness of others. Please do not concern yourself with this man. I have no concerns with yourself and so there is peace between us.

Hi Maryjane,

There is an ancient hatred for all those who stand upon the truth. Look back down through the corridors of the last 1800years and see how millions of our brothers and sisters fared when they dared to challenge one of the most evil, if not the most evil institutions the world has ever known. There is a ferocity in the evil that is released when Catholicism is seriously challenged. The saints of all centuries have felt it, the reformers felt it, and I say this, we shall feel it again. Yet, praise God, in every century there have been, by the grace of God, lovers of the truth who were willing to stand upon it no matter how strong the winds of hatred blew against them. God always has His people just as He has them today and I praise Him for it.

When I first came to Jesus, for two years I shared Jesus on a Catholic web page. You cannot believe the hatred that was poured out, so much so that one women recognized this was evil and actually came to Jesus because she witnessed the spewing out of evil for one who was simply sharing the truth. I had the privledge to meet her when she came to Kansas for a Christian conference. She is not the only Catholic I have personally witnessed to that I have seen set free by the power of God and by His Truth. He who the Son sets free is free indeed. I would that every Catholic would be set free from the bondage of its wickedness.........bro Frank

Yes the demons do believe and tremble at His name. But what is it they believe? When we are done proving that which does not need to be proven. namely the errors of the RCC, when do you suppose we will get around to representing the word of God properly and soundly?

The demons believe that God is one! That is what James says. If the allusion is always to prove Roman Catholics cannot be true christians by such means we are become false. The oneness of God is not a basis for salvation and never has been. It is a basis for fearing God, which is the beginning of wisdom. It is the prophetic word of Moses given before the deliverance of the Law of God. It is the very reason to fear God, because he is one. Moreover Christ did not die for the demons.

Roman Catholics believe a great deal more than that there is one God, so to use this verse to support or elude to the idea that somehow it corresponds with notions of the Trinity or to an understanding of Who Christ truly is, and in the context of that to His death and resurrection is false.

How we try to deny that others believe, even though we are not their judge, and in truth we have no knowledge whether they believe or not. Only the Lord knows who are His.

As Mr Phelps is become the beacon of hope in this defamation of the benefit and effect of the death and resection of Christ to those who believe in Him, I conclude that Mr Phelps hope was in Christ. The fact that he effectively started a cult is irrelevant. Being a cult is no basis for eternal damnation, it is unbelief. We all know however that there is a desire to hang the man and by the hand of the most righteous shall he indeed hang. Hang the man and watch him dance sufficient for the cause. Thereafter we will all be grateful for the obedience of those who are not minded to hang and in it we will call them brother. I would rather hang personally.

"Is this really the heart JESUS would have for us to speaking with one another. I understand the topic is a difficult one and there are differing points of view but surely we can speak to one another in love and not resort to this kind of speech."

Thank you for saying this sister and of course this is why I shared those scriptures on this thread, because there actually IS an answer to your question! This is NOT the heart of Jesus and we all need to remember that it is not all about us ...this is a public forum and we must be respectful to one another and season our words with grace so that we are a good testimony to visitors. If that is not something that we are willing to submit to then it is better to shut our mouths and stop talking.

Thank you for saying this sister and of course this is why I shared those scriptures on this thread, because there actually IS an answer to your question! This is NOT the heart of Jesus and we all need to remember that it is not all about us ...this is a public forum and we must be respectful to one another and season our words with grace so that we are a good testimony to visitors. If that is not something that we are willing to submit to then it is better to shut our mouths and stop talking.

You are correct Mark there is an answer to MaryJane's question. But it not one I would extend to a sister. I feel sure you will take my meaning well.

The most hateful and cruel people I have known without exception have been those who take the name of Christ. I have often wondered why. When asked in the right frame of mind, namely when the one being asked thinks you are for them, the answer is alway the sweetest answer imaginable. The same when asked in a challenge will almost always answer with indignity. Simply observe from a distance and you will see how quickly the same as these will condemn others out of hand. Were it not for the fact that I know Christ lives, I would have set myself apart from most christians permanently many years ago. It is only because of the Lord that I persist.

And here we are then where all it takes is for a man to say the word "garbage" and he immediately becomes a devil and a hateful man. The Lord Himself spoke more harshly than I have ever done in this place. I could show you the passages but I know you have no interest in these things. You are too wise and too knowledgable to consider that you actually have no idea who I am or what I am like or in fact anything about me at all. You judge me on the basis of a few plain words and disregard reams of sound wisdom.

You made a decision to comment on this thread and direct your comments to me personally, now in your superiority you presume to speak about me and yet to do so in disregard of me as a person. To you I spoke plainly and straight forwardly and I do that in every post. Many christians are hypocrites and fools. Whether you like to hear it or not the evidence is easily gathered.

You speak about seasoning our words with grace in order that we might be a good testimony to visitors. The history of the churches is ample evidence of the many who have been stumbled by outwards shows of righteousness and propriety, but in the end proved to be inwardly corrupt. Those who stumble at these things do so because they understand very well what hypocrisy is, even if in time they learn to bear with it. The whole of the contention on this thread so far as I am concerned, which is to say, that which directly involves myself, has to do with a single point. It is the overwhelming need of christians to judge and condemn millions of men and women who's lives are for the most part so full of misery and suffering that they are disinclined to be so hypocritical as we superior well informed men and women are. We condemn on doctrinal grounds and neglect the most basic reality of the mercy of God.

This is not the dark ages. We are not contending for the word of God with our very lives. The bible is not hidden it is in full view. Every week I post into Islamic countries around the world in Arabic and I do so without the remotest possibility of either being harmed or even tested. We are not contending against wickedness which will lay hold of us and tear our bodies into pieces. The only thing we have to contend with is the inclinations of the flesh to be lazy and unwilling to write the articles and make the post.

Frank thinks that being hated in an internet chatroom is persecution. I have news for Frank because persecution is what is happening in Syria and Iraq right now. Of those christians we say pray for our brethren. Yet their tradition is as corrupt and as idolatrous as that of Rome. But we say they speak Aramaic the language which Jesus spoke and so we imagine that they must somehow be special and therefore true believers. We judge things superficially and in doing so we become hypocrites. Yet many of them could well be true believers.

Please don't tell me to keep my mouth shut Mark by means of a proxy comment. Whether you can see it or not that is a prime example of hypocrisy. You do not say it me, but you say it to another about me. I think that it would be better for the visitors of this site to see reality Mark and not a version of it, convoluted into self righteous words which amount to no more than whitewashing the tomb full of dead mens bones. Unlike you Mark I do not need the company of men. So whatever happens to me I can walk with it and be at peace. It is for that reason that I have said anyone can ask for me to be thrown off the site anytime they want. Not as you imagined because I had realised that I had stepped too far. Mark I did not step far enough and had we been face to face you would have known it in clearer words than those I wrote on here.

Andrew,

With respect brother. I urge you to review the SI guidelines.

This is a public forum with rules that require us to be civil toward one another. Even in our disagreements.

For that matter I will review them myself.

Just a thought, bro.

Blaine

Andrew,

With respect brother. I urge you to review the SI guidelines.

This is a public forum with rules that require us to be civil toward one another. Even in our disagreements.

For that matter I will review them myself.

Just a thought, bro.

Blaine

Perhaps you would be so good and tell me precisely which rules I have broken Blaine. Or more beneficially what I have said which amounts to a breaking of the rules. Are we children that we cannot speak plainly? Lets get this over with. As an Englishman I could make civility look like a thug. Civility is a garment which can be put on and taken off. How do you suggest you tell someone they are an hypocrite? Or ought we not to do that? Civility is for serpents Blaine if it means dancing around with endless convolutions of words and pretences.

Brother, with respect, just review the guidelines. Do it in the presence of the Holy Spirit. He may or may not convict you.

I just reread the guidelines and I am convicted.

Blaine

Brother, with respect, just review the guidelines. Do it in the presence of the Holy Spirit. He may or may not convict you.

I just reread the guidelines and I am convicted.

Blaine

Blaine I will leave things at that I can see I am wasting my time.

Brethren,

We are closing the thread at this time and feel it is appropriate. There has been profitable questions raised that go past the mainstream views of certain larger topics in christendom. In that sense there is a profitablity that some questions have been raised.

A large issue is also being able to discuss things without being so flagrant with one's opinion that others are hurt. Many are at fault in this way. The one's that will walk away benefited from any discussion including this one is the one that is teachable and willing to learn from even the least.

As it stands we have brother Lawerence's book on the website in audio and video. We are glad that it will be a benefit to many and feel others have benefited from the work in the past. We simply ask saints to use biblical and spiritual discernment in anything they use or read and also have great grace towards the way people word spiritual experiences and to be slow to call something new age or a false spirit etc.

Not because it was mentioned but we do bring up the community rules many times especially on a closed thread. Our discussions are read by thousands of others in Christianity world-wide and also by unbelievers. Let us keep that in mind and show grace and love in the end to anyone you disagree with.

SermonIndex Community Guiding Principles
https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=44556&forum=13

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